After the Surge in Iraq: Women: 'There is only fear and horror.'
Another heartbreaking story from Iraq. I know McCain doesn't care about civilian deaths in Iraq, but he should:
The images in the Basra police file are nauseating: Page after page of women killed in brutal fashion -- some strangled to death, their faces disfigured; others beheaded. All bear signs of torture.
The women are killed, police say, because they failed to wear a headscarf or because they ignored other "rules" that secretive fundamentalist groups want to enforce.
"Fear, fear is always there," says 30-year-old Safana, an artist and university professor. "We don't know who to be afraid of. Maybe it's a friend or a student you teach. There is no break, no security. I don't know who to be afraid of."
---
After the fall of Saddam Hussein in 2003, Sawsan says, the situation was "the best." But now, she says, it's "the worst."
"We thought there would be freedom and democracy and women would have their rights. But all the things we were promised have not come true. There is only fear and horror."...read on
Regime change 2.0
Thanks Neocons!
I had nothing to do with this war and never believed it necessary, yet the guilt I feel for these women and the people of Iraq is overwhelming.
This is what it looks like when America comes calling and spreading the freedom that bush says is the gift of the Almighty to all people? Is it any wonder that the countries in the area want us to stay the hell away from them?
Yes, Mcain cares not for the women of Iraq.
Does Hillary?
Does Obama?
No ad hominems, please.
This will all still occur under a Democratic President.
The elites of financial, military, corporate, and globalist interests have seen to it.
And none of the rights you have lost or have been diminished by this administration and an obedient Congress will be restored nor the abuses rolled back.
Iraq....war game experiment for domestic use.
Infraguard!
One business executive, who showed me his InfraGard card, told me they have permission to “shoot to kill” in the event of martial law.
Heck'uva job Bushie!!
He brought freedom to Iraq: Freedom to be killed in new horrible ways.
Truth B Told @ 5:
Your words speak for me.
pissed off patricia @ 3:
Since we live in a democracy, we are, all of us, responsible.
Hillary voted the war. Perhaps her daughter, Chelsea can take a leave from her hedge fund job, and suspend her phone calls to super delegates, so she can serve the greater good, put on a uniform and grab a gun. After all, her wonderful mom thinks war is good.
Honorable women don't send poor, working-class Americans off to die in Iraq while their own pampered offspring enjoy Secret Service protection and 100,000/yr jobs provided by daddy's friends.
Thingfish at 9
You write as if individual citizens can affect a political contest.
the military handed out cash and told shiite
leaders to police themselves so that they could make it "appear" like
Bush's surge was working.
Bush, with full knowledge, just like always and completely
predictable...encouraged these warlord extremists immediately to pick
on the those least able to defend themselves.
VietVet8666 @ 8:
Thank you Vietvet. I've read your posts before and I agree that we are mostly on the same page probably politically and philosophically.
We should post more articles about the suffering of Iraqis. McCain, Lieberman, et. al. can make stupid claims about the success in Iraq only by hiding the suffering incurred by the people we're trying to democratize.
IdahoMoe @ 2:
We're next on their agenda...once they're finished with the rest of the world.
Be prepared!
Nobody gives a shit about these women, or the 250,000 dead children. As long as the US has the fuel to drive an economy, Fuck the world.
How do we live with ourselves? Really, think about it for a minute.... You wake up with kids and your spouse and you only care about the price of gas and milk. These women and children wake up wondering if this is the last day of their lives. And this administration could give a shit as long as Exxon/Mobil and Shell have plenty of reserves.
Please people, wake the fuck up.
“We thought there would be freedom and democracy and women would have their rights. But all the things we were promised have not come true. There is only fear and horror.”
Welcome to Bush family values
1, 0 0 0 , 0 0 0 Dead . The rules are when you take over a country it is your duty to provide security. The only duty george knows is what he does in the morning.
tolerance be damned! how sickening does a culture have to get before the rest of the planet smacks some heads together?
a funny little thing: during Saddam's reign of terror women were actually progressing in Iraq... there was a woman colonel in the air force there.... interview on CBC (I wonder if I could find that...?)
but what in bloody hell are we to do when a bloc of people believe that the exposure of a female face is an affront to right-minded citizens?... and why? 'cuz some poor fellas are gonna have their loins set aflame?... GET SOME FUCKING ASBESTOS UNDIES YOU JERKS!!!
Don't peg me as anti-muslim... I am anti-braindead, jerkwad, mouth-breathers... seems to me that these ludicrous notions of what constitutes proper religious observance needs to be examined and relegated to the "remember when humans were this stupid..." file.
Ain't religion wonderful! If there really WERE a Devil, he would have invented it!
Perhaps someday Iraq
Dave @ 17:
Dave, "we" never thought that. Those of us who know, understand this is war without regret. This is a war for money, recourses and position. Bush and Chaney feast on the dead. The fewer people in the way of their plans, the better. Those are the Bush family values.
cocomoco @ 10:
Honorable men don't do it either.
Perhaps someday Iraqi women will get to be as progressive as Laura Bush and her neoconservative sisters.
Lasthorseman @ 6:
And under martial law elections will be suspended therefore those in congress will enjoy permanent seats which explains impeachment being taken off the table.
Hold on there John. I agree with you about McCain ignoring the fate of the Iraqi people. But the same is equally true of Obama *and* Hillary.
Scroll through the transcripts of the Dem debates.
Obama and Hillary always frame the tragedy of the Iraq War in terms of American fatalities and casualties.
Sympathy is rarely-if-ever extended to the plight of one million dead Iraqis and four million ethnically cleansed refugees.
The logical extrapolation for the rest of the world, not unjustifiably, is that an American life is worth a thousand lives of non-Americans. The implication is that Arabs are somewhat lesser, probably savages, and maybe even sub-human, like animals.
Hillary is a war-hawk who refuses to atone for "original sin" (voting to authorize war) so we can't expect any mea culpas from her, she has blood on her hands and won't 'fess up to her part of the devil's bargain.
Obama especially, should press the point home that Iraqis -- and peoples around the world -- cannot trust the United States as an honest peace broker with the best interests of the Arab world at heart, without first publicly acknowledging Iraqi suffering and accepting our moral responsibility. The level of civilian fatalities in that nation since we gave unleashed "shock & awe" hell has created three generations of permanent psychological brain damage. And we wonder why they hate us...?!
Moreover, it's not just about words -- or lack thereof -- it's also about deeds and actions -- or rather, a failure on our part of genuinely good deeds and actions.
Despite the so-called "pottery-barn rule," dare to compare the number of Iraqi refugees that Sweden has accepted since America attacked Iraq, versus the number of Iraqi refugees that the United States has accepted.
Frankly, it's shameful, and NOBODY, not even Democrats, wants to talk about it. WE Dems should be better than that. The whole world is watching.
Peace.
I drive past houses here in CT. Some built long ago, some recently.
See signs. Ron Paul. Hillary. Obama.
Everyone wants something different.
Question: Does the next Democratic nominee deliver something different?
I went out for a cup of coffee eariler today to a place where the employees are always ready to talk politics and was suprised that one man had changed his opinion about the state of the country under Bush. When three young men, students from the local college walked in I told my friend there is the insurance we need to get Obama or Clinton elected. Then I asked the three guys if they were registered voters and if they understood that electing McCain who says this war could last a hundred years would result in them probably having to serve in the military. I reminded them that with the condition of our military forces are in today that the only way we would be able to maintain a fighting force would be through a draft. I think the students got the message and the employees nodded in agreement. I also told the students about C&L.
VietVet8666 @ 11:
Well we do through the vote. Doubt any here voted for Bush. Many may have protested against him and are doing what they can to remove him and set things right. So it could be argued that the dergee of responsibility is far less for some than others comparable to the degree we can effect the direction taken...
But in a democracy we all have some responsibility for what has and is happening in this country. Otherwise it would be too easy to wash ones hands of the matter. And like PoP we should feel some guilt. And that feeling is not unreasonable to expect of Americans.
Thing Fish @ 29:
Thanks for your response. It's thoughful, IMO, and not ad hominem.
You know, I think George & Co. should be indicted for war crimes for illegally going into Iraq in the first place, BUT let's not associated what's going on in Basra with the surge or lack thereof.
Basra now is the result of the Iraq war to begin with, something enough Democrats did not fight to prevent, and many voted approval of. Second, this is the city that the Brits recently left and it seems it's devolving into more chaos. What do we expect? Many aspects of Arab culture has not advanced and is backwards. This is an example of that. The more interventionist we are, the more radical and backwards they seem to get.
Thing Fish @ 9:
Funny, I thought the US was supposed to be a Republic. Altough...these days I only find frightening descriptions to the state of your union.
Either way, it is true that 'you' elect people to represent you, but you can't be hold responsible for what your representatives do. However those representatives should sure as hell be held responsible when they abuse their power and/or make extreme judgement errors . But when you see them go unpunished time after time, you should ask yourself if it has become your responsibility to shout out for accountability.
No impeachment now sets the standard for every future president and government, telling them that they can get away with murder (genocide) without any accountability (except ofc bad words sent their way).
Thing Fish @ 29:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=0u6lCBnRoHQ
Yes... All that and now? On top of this travesty visited on women of Iraq.... Apparently AL Kaada, Bush's old boogieman buddy, are literally teaching the gradeschool age kids how to kidnap and launch just the kinds attacks and reprisal strikes that lead to among other things, images in Iraqi police files of dead and mutilated women... Then there's that whole retarded women as suicide bombers... That's a real piece of strategic work there... Jesus, some of the stories coming out of that hellhole these days is almost making Japanese decapitation of P.O.W's in WWII start to look tame by comparision... almost... Without taking any credit away from old Al K., the terr-ist, who is one fucking son of a bitch to be sure.. I gotta point out the obvious here... Shit is just waaaay better for everyone involved now in Iraq, wouldn't you say folks??? No? Don't think that surge is quite workin??? I Didn't think so... So someone (Rummy I think) thought we'd be greeted as liberators, with flowers and candies and frikkin boxes of lucky charms full of pink hearts and green clovers and what not... Not by a long shot....not by a long shot...as its turned out...
No mission accomplished after all.... Unless the mission was to ruin two nations and set the world on fire.. In that case, fucking bravo zulu motherfucker...bravo frikkin zulu..... But. If the idea was to do something good, something useful? Ehh, not so much...
Instead, four years later??? What do we find... Fractured and tortured societies on both sides of the pond.. That would be theirs and ours.. A growing sense of alarm in the world at us and our current geopolitcal behavior... The word 'international pariah' is starting to pop up in more and more peoples heads internationally when the word America comes up.. Dead and maimed as far as the eye could see.. And that's the just the Iraqies.. That's not even counting our own service members with its own numbers of casualties continuing to climb by a half dozen to a dozen a day, a week, I'm losing track, increments... One thing I'm sure of..it's a constant condition.. This dying and getting maimed shit...
And then there's the wonderful future our vets can now look forward to..Which amounts to this.. Should they manage to survive the countless stoploss orders, neverending redeployments, and other abuses at the hands of our so-called civilian leadership, they can expect to come home and be..... ignored... Especially if they have mental issues with what they have been put thru...
IF they're really lucky and don't have PTSD, they can find previously held civilian jobs, in no particular order, 1. given to someone else, 2. farmed out to another country, 3.gone away in bankruptcy, plus shattered marraiges and/or relationships... and don't forget the reduced vet benefits. Yea, be an army of one.. Cause that's all ya got to depend on in the end.. That 'one'.. 'You' mister or miss well meaning service guy or gal...
All this and more just so we and say we took out one American created dictator and hung his punk ass... Only to replace him with a feckless hand picked Bushco puppet regime noone puts any credence in, least of all the locals needed to support it... A civilian police force at least equally beholden to our so-called ememies in many situations and infiltrated by these so-called ememies and pretty much corrupted by the circumstances they find themselves in... That's if they even survive long enough to graduate from whatever quickly law academy they are ran thru double time...
And then there's previously mentioned Iraqi kids.... Now we can expect that our troops will have to gun them down with intent, not as mistake or overeaction since the next 7 year old walking down the street looking for a handout just might have an AK47 tucked away waiting to cap one of ours with...Or hell, even one of his own if the sick fuck who mentored him in this sick art of killing told him to do that... They're killing their own sister for having thoughts deemed impure or something.. shit's right out of the freekin middle ages...
Corrupt cops, murderous kids, swabbling internal Iraqi groups, external terrorist agitators, callapsed society, and feckless local politiicans being propped up by our feckless U.S. administration... Yea... It's a real fucking nice job we've done over there... l.i.b.e.r.a.t..i.n......... Seems like maybe we should just mind our own fucking business next time... I mean, if we spent as much time and energy trying to invent a replacement for the internal combustion engine, as we have wrecking Iraq in the name of what??? Oil greed!!??? Hell, maybe, all the rest of this shit we created woulda never have had to be... It would've been moot if we'd a invented a car that say, ... ran on tapwater or steam or photoviac cells or solar or something other than oil sometime in the last 30 to 50 years... And we wouldn't be counting the dead and maimed and trying to figure out how to unload the debt it's all creating onto our kids and grandkids and still be able to look them in the face down the road... Right now, I'm thinking about the Bush administration, the neocon PNAC plan, these pathetic repub presidential contenders including bomb bomb bomb Iran McCain... and an old line from the Laural and Hardy movies of old... 'this is another fine mess you've gotten us into'... GEORGE & company !!!!!! you worthless pack of candyasses......JD
Following your god's rules blindly, can and often does, lead to some of the ugliest crimes ever committed. We need to give up on the whole "god" thing. We're just smart animals on a finite globe, here for a relatively short period of time.
It's not just the Islamic faith. Shrub called this mess a "crusade" and you know he thinks his god is on his side. Much easier to sleep at night when you are doing god's work.
Darth himself said in '93 that going into Bagdhad and taking out S.H. would lead to instability in the region, and the country would be up for grabs.
I guess that's why they went in. Everyone in their right mind knew this would be a clusterf¤%& for decades.
Bill B. @ 33:
Not voting is being a parasite in a democracy. You'll do fine as long as the body politic is healthy. Heck you could probably survive all the way until its death bed. But then what?
On Topic - how are Exxon's earnings this year?
VietVet8666 @ 4:
I would think that not many people in the United States do... unless it's in their face it doesn't exist. If the media started showing them what's really going on they would start to feel it - otherwise it's too 'over there' 'them people'
I got an email from someone the other day saying that the US is not ready for a muslim to be president... the ignorance is amazing.
Lynda from Australia @ 39:
Thanks much from Down Under.
billy bob tweed at 26 - you said it.
McCain said he had no problem with a hundred-year war in Iraq just as long as Americans weren't getting killed. And he thinks that would be just fine with the country (and the world?). A very scary guy.
VietVet8666 @ 4:
I believe all care about the women of Iraq. Just think Obama and even Hillary are at least looking in the direction that will do more to lessen the suffering.
McCain I'd say is more interested in wining an unlikely quick resolution. And turnining to tribal leaders for support. That tribalsim is one of the reason women in Iraq are being treated so badly.
Ya know what's really sad, college students in Turkey are actully fighting to bring back the headscarf. Moderate muslem voices in Turkey are being drowned out by fundamentalists. Remember when Turkey had a female president a few years back? What the hell happened?
Lynda from Australia @ 39:
please, in the jewish community, everyone is buying the "obama is a secret muslim" email...even my sister
truly makes me ill
Thing Fish @ 37:
Not voting is, in and of itself, action. I have a right not to vote, no?
Voting is you deluding yourself into thinking that you, one of 303 million Americans (at least two-thirds of which can legally vote), can make a difference in the election. Name one election that was decided by one vote. Let me save you the time: you won't find one. Before George W. Bush stole the 2000 election and beat Gore by 537 votes, the closest Presidential election was in 1960, when John F. Kennedy was elected. His margin of victory: 100,000 votes.
You also delude yourself into thinking that the politicians make any noticeable impact. When you realize that all of the politicians -- Ron Paul aside, and he is unelectable for so many other reasons -- are puppets of big businesses (oil, pharmaceutical, insurance, etc.), you will learn that the politicians are meaningless and only continue to exist to give you the illusion that you have a voice.
Lastly, can you tell me why I should waste my time by voting when I support neither the Democrats nor the Republicans (both are utterly reprehensible)? It's not like there's a third party that's going to win, and it's not like there are any third parties that represent me.
Lynda from Australia @ 39:
Sadly, I think most Americans don't care. Just give them another home equity loan on their 7,000 square foot McMansion and barrels of gasoline for their 11MPG SUV and they don't care who dies for it.
this is too much
Bill B. @ 46:
No in a democracy that's inaction. There is a right to vote. No one forces you to vote so therefore, no there is no right to not vote.
Elections aren't about one person's vote. Politics is about compromise to find the best solution to meet many needs. You're point about one vote not meaning anything is not relevant.
You do know that corporations (big business) came into existence through politics. English charter companies and all that. That which can be made by man can be unmade or refined.
Been there, done that years ago when I felt anarchy was the only way to go. Through reading history I realized that anarchy could not exist without endless struggle consuming all energy. Democracy, and the politicians that comes along with it, is the best solution to that problem.
Don't have a party you like? Well form your own or try to get involved with an existing one and work towards a change you like more. Politics isn't a sport with immediate gratification of "winning" outcome after just a few hours of struggle. It takes time, generations even.
By not voting it is certain that things will not get any better. And likely worse.
By voting there is at least an attempt to change things and allow advancement of human civilization.
This really isn't on topic; but regarding voting no, and related to some of the comments.
I'd prefer elections change so that if a simple majority of citizens did not cast any vote, then the politicians currently in office should remain in office.
Has Hillary ever addressed this issue? Don't think so. Have any of the candidates seriously addressed what we have done there and paid to do--all of us, not some abstract supporters of the "troops," but all of us have allowed this by keeping Bush in office and voting for the war spending and confirming Mukasey and all of them. Pelosi must absolutely be persuaded that the majority of Americans want justice and that means impeachment, however inconvenient that may be. Could Waxman and Conyers and Wexler and Dean and Fein PLEASE meet with her and all the other elected representatives to fill her in on the constitutional responsibilities involved here? Do we have a choice?
i really and truly want to believe that either obama or hillary will be able to pull us out of iraq...i fear it wont happen
i fear it wont happen because of the giant fuck up our current sociopath in chief has left us with
and this is why the bs "stimulus package" is such a joke
getting people to spend money aint gonna stop the occupation
and we just keep sending money into a deep dark pit
im really freaking out for the first time in my life
this is horrible.
this is just what you can expect from a delusional bastard for a president
and a fucking maniacal vp.
we should be careful with bush and cheney finding some way to use blackwater
here in the USA. they have no moral character that would stop them
from attacking our own American citizens. they already have..................
This debacle needs to go to the front burner.And how do you fix this place now?This war isn't front and center news anymore..
Bring back the topic of this war more often.
Bring the war to the front burner on 3-18 ,strike and boycott. No work ,no buying ,find a demonstration or organize one yourself. UFPJ suggests vigils at your representative's or senator's office with goal of a demonstration in front of every one of them in the nation before we enter the sixth year of the moron's great Iraq adventure the next day.
dadams @ 53:
If Hillary or Obama get too far ahead of McCain, there is nothing preventing them from executing PD51. The election will be canceled, martial law will be a fact and Darth Cheney's 35 year old dream of becoming a dictator will come true.
Wether or not martial law will last is a moot point. They've proven that they have no sound judgement before, so like I said: There is nothing preventing them.
Here's an even bigger question. Does anyone care about the civilian MEN who are being tortured and butally murdered by the hundreds in the streets every single day in Iraq?
It seems that the only time these things are reported on in a personal way is when women or children are killed.
I wish we would start giving this much attention and compassion to all these atrocities even the one's that no one talks about where "only" men were killed.
Bill B. @ 46:
BTW you wouldn't also be "Bill B" (no dot) from prior C&L posts would ye?
Thing Fish @ 49:
So, you basically just refuted your "not voting = parasite" claim.
It's entirely relevant. I didn't vote in 2004. No one missed me. My vote had no effect on the election whatsoever. And my vote won't have an effect this November, and it won't have an effect in 2012, and in 2016, and in 2020...
This is simple economics, buddy. The more money you print, the more the value drops; the more people that vote, the more the value of a vote drops. We have 200+ million legal voters.
No. The damage has been done and is irreparable. You can't just throw claims out there like that. They sound witty and intellectual, but it's just vapid.
I'm not an anarchist. I'm in favor of democratic socialism. I've basically come to the conclusion that democracy is the best we can do. It's flawed and totally meaningless, but it beats the rest of the junk out there.
Didn't you read where I said that I find both Democrats and Republicans reprehensible?
Didn't you read where I said that third parties have no chance? In 2000, Bush and Gore combined for 96.25% of all the votes, leaving the remaining 3.75% to the remaining six candidates.
Again, a spurious claim that sounds intellectual but is really just vapid nonsense.
See above: Claim = spurious. vapid; != intellectual.
Do the math. If I don't vote, nothing changes! If 99,000 Kennedy-voters didn't show up in 1960, nothing would've changed!
It's positive reinforcement for your mind, nothing more. It's like how you give a dog a Milkbone when he does a trick.
Thing Fish @ 58:
I don't know. I don't post comments often, but I've always used my first name and initial. Not sure if there's another one floating around somewhere...
IdahoMoe @ 2:
That how you see it inside the country, though on the outside it's "Thanks America" .........
This is nothing to the people who are responsible, as well as those that voted them in or now do nothing; it's about poll rating and how people wish to ignore it, little or nothing to do with innocent Iraqis ....... I wonder what Brittany is up to ......... ooo look something shiny ......
"We have 200+ million legal voters."
And little or none of them doing anything ...........
"English charter companies and all that. "
Ah yes the americon way out of everything, just point the finger and blame, sad children.
"i really and truly want to believe that either obama or hillary will be able to pull us out of iraq…i fear it wont happen"
Of course they won't, it's not in americons interests as being the militant bullies and aggressors is all the country has left, there is no political legitimacy and the economy and currency is pathetic, just have to wait for the military to break now and the rest of the world can get on with dealing with China, and with politicians and trade opposed to Bush/co and the military.
Don't worry it won't be long now.
EVERY AMERICAN SHOULD READ THIS PIECE!!:
http://www.counterpunch.org/
Here Come the Brownshirts, Again
Does the Republican Party Have Aces Up Its Sleeves (for the 2008 elections)?
In a McCain Regime, Cheney will be back in office with another stint as Secretary of War. Norman "Bomb-bomb-bomb-Iran" Podhoretz will be Undersecretary for Nuclear War with General John "Nuke them" Shalikashvili as his deputy. Rudy Giuliani will be the Minister of Interior in charge of Halliburton's detention centers into which will be herded all critics of war and the police state. Billy kristol will be chief White House spokesliar.
The whole gang will be back--Wolfowitz, Perle, Wurmster, Feith, Libby, Bolton. America will have a second chance to bomb the world into submission.
With the majority of voters sick of war, sick of lies, sick of fraud from the Federal Reserve and Wall Street, and sick of stagnant and falling incomes, McCain is poised to capture 20 per cent of the vote--the Christian Zionists, the rapture evangelicals, and the diehard macho flag-waving thugs who believe America is done for unless "Islamofacists" are exterminated.
They can steal the election with the Diebold electronic voting machines and proprietary software that no one is allowed to check. There are now enough elections on record with significant divergences between exit polls and vote tallies that a stolen election can be explained away. The Democrats have been house trained to acquiesce to stolen elections. The voters, whose votes are stolen, dismiss the evidence as "conspiracy theories."
VIEW THIS ARTICLE!!!! PSSST! BECOME INFORMED AND T H I N K !!!!:
http://www.counterpunch.org/
please wake up america --
Amazonmum @ 44:
The moderates are the ones trying to bring the headscarf back. The current Turkish policy of not allowing the headscarf in public buildings is ridiculous and the women want to be able to wear it or not wear it regardless of location. It's called religious freedom and I support it. The Headscarf isn't a bad thing as long as it's by choice and that's what they are pushing for.
Bill B. @ 59:
So, you basically just refuted your "not voting = parasite" claim.
It's entirely relevant. I didn't vote in 2004. No one missed me. My vote had no effect on the election whatsoever. And my vote won't have an effect this November, and it won't have an effect in 2012, and in 2016, and in 2020...
This is simple economics, buddy. The more money you print, the more the value drops; the more people that vote, the more the value of a vote drops. We have 200+ million legal voters.
No. The damage has been done and is irreparable. You can't just throw claims out there like that. They sound witty and intellectual, but it's just vapid.
I'm not an anarchist. I'm in favor of democratic socialism. I've basically come to the conclusion that democracy is the best we can do. It's flawed and totally meaningless, but it beats the rest of the junk out there.
Didn't you read where I said that I find both Democrats and Republicans reprehensible?
Didn't you read where I said that third parties have no chance? In 2000, Bush and Gore combined for 96.25% of all the votes, leaving the remaining 3.75% to the remaining six candidates.
Again, a spurious claim that sounds intellectual but is really just vapid nonsense.
See above: Claim = spurious. vapid; != intellectual.
Do the math. If I don't vote, nothing changes! If 99,000 Kennedy-voters didn't show up in 1960, nothing would've changed!
It's positive reinforcement for your mind, nothing more. It's like how you give a dog a Milkbone when he does a trick.
If what you say is ture, then you only have two choice's. 1) Withdraw from the world, because as you say, nothing will change. 2) Pickup arms and overthrow the system we have. If all is the same and nothing we do in the system will change anything, that leaves you only those two choice's.
False dichotomy.
diamondmc @ 65:
I think Bill B.'s real issue comes down to this statement of his back @ 46:
Next we'll hear how the statement was taken out of context. That I added emphasis not his. That he said Ron Paul was unelectable for so many other reasons (without identifying any of the reasons).
Funny how someone who proclaims to be "in favor of democratic socialism" would find any reason to exclude Ron Paul from other politicians.
BTW this discussion about voting or not voting should be moved to the next open thread. It's entirely Off Topic here.
Ron Paul isn't a puppet of big businesses, that's why I excluded him.
Paul's economic ideals are ass-backwards.
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