Scalia: The Torture Judge
By John Amato Tuesday Feb 12, 2008 6:01pm
Antonin Scalia jumps into the torture debate with the BBC:
Justice Antonin Scalia told the BBC that "smacking someone in the face" could be justified if there was an imminent threat. "You can't come in smugly and with great self satisfaction and say 'Oh it's torture, and therefore it's no good'," he said in a rare interview. He also accused Europe of being self-righteous over the death penalty.
Justice Scalia argued that courts could take stronger measures when a witness refused to answer questions.
"I suppose it's the same thing about so-called torture. Is it really so easy to determine that smacking someone in the face to determine where he has hidden the bomb that is about to blow up Los Angeles is prohibited in the constitution?" he asked.
"It would be absurd to say you couldn't do that. And once you acknowledge that, we're into a different game.
Professor Conor Gearty of the London School of Economics, one of Britain's leading experts on human rights law smacked Scalia's insane analogies down.
"His devices are quite obvious, the idea of a smack on the face - rather than sensory deprivation, or waterboarding or any of the Abu Ghraib images - and the comment about 'so-called torture'..."
Professor Gearty accused Justice Scalia of creating a "nightmare scenario of mass destruction that all defenders of torture so need, to hide the fact that the reality of torture will be quite different".
Just get out the ball peen hammer, Judge. His arguments are so dishonest in this article that I scratch my head and wonder how he sits on the highest court in Ameria. Is it me---or does Antonin make most of his most vile statements in Europe?
By the way, Scalia - and his ideological soulmates on the Court - won't be going away after January 2009. This mindset - that human rights are OK for some but not for all, that as long as a crime is ALLEGED and not part of a conviction then you can torture whoever you want, that we should all be so afraid for our lives at every waking moment that it demands setting aside any sort of ethics or values, and that everything a suspected terrorist tells you under duress is absolutely and 100% true - isn't going anywhere.
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And I'm sure Scalia will be kind enough to recuse himself from any pending cases regarding the legality of torture =)
Welcome to the Age of the Wing Nuts
"By the way, Scalia - and his ideological soulmates on the Court - won’t be going away after January 2009."
Scalia, Thomas, and Kennedy can all be IMPEACHED in 2009.
Bush v. Gore was their complicit action, and failure to recuse themselves is plenty for impeachment.
Both Scalia and Thomas are on record as considering anything that does not leave scars or cause organ failure "not torture" in a domestic law enforcement context.
Boy would I love to be able to SMACK HIM IN THE FACE. And see if he can tell us what happened at his and cheney's so called hunting trip in the south. And if cheney told him all about that energy conference and who was present.
Police State.
The Armageddon Express has arrived. All Aboard!!!!!
They lost today because Congress showed some spine and McCain flipped flopped on torture.
http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/02/senate_passes_bill_wit...
Is he evil? Check
Is he cruel? Check
Is he an asshole? Check
Is he oblivious to other people's feeling? Check
Yep, he passes the test. He's a true republican.
And the Senate FISA bill failed in the House.
Senate Votes to Ban Harsh Interrogations
WASHINGTON — The Senate voted 51 to 45 on Wednesday afternoon to ban waterboarding and other harsh interrogation methods used by the Central Intelligence Agency against high-level terrorism suspects.
Senate Republicans generally opposed the bill, but several of them also did not want to cast a vote that could be construed as supporting torture, and so were relying on President Bush to make good on a threat to veto legislation limiting C.I.A. interrogation techniques.
The prohibition of harsh interrogation techniques is part of a wider intelligence authorization bill and would restrict all American interrogators to techniques allowed in the Army Field Manual, which bars the use of physical force.
The House approved the bill in December by a vote of 222 to 199, mostly along party lines. Wednesday’s vote in the Senate was also along party lines.
But the White House has long said Mr. Bush will veto the bill, saying it “would prevent the president from taking the lawful actions necessary to protect Americans from attack in wartime.”
Senate Democrats, sensing an opportunity to highlight a policy dispute between the White House and Senator John McCain, the likely Republican presidential nominee, had been hoping that Republicans would make a procedural challenge to the provision on interrogation methods.
Mr. McCain, a former prisoner of war, has consistently voiced opposition to waterboarding and other methods that critics say is a form torture. But the Republicans, confident of a White House veto, did not mount the challenge. Mr. McCain voted “no” on Wednesday afternoon.
Got that? Mr. Former P.O.W. voted FOR torture.
getalife @ 8:
time to impeach. it has given all the evidence required. that which will tie it to the VP will also be forthcoming and that will help send it to prison for the remainder of it's life. Our country has no need for such profoundly political jurists. Never have.
Meanwhile . . . . . .
House drafts bill to fund war efforts AP - 1 hour, 17 minutes ago
WASHINGTON - The leaders of a House panel that oversees military spending said Wednesday they are drafting legislation that would pay for combat operations.
If the interrogates are contractors from, say like a place like blackwater, do they have to follow the laws or are they free to torture all they want?
Every time I hear this git or see his picture, it reminds me how much he seems like a Mafia don.
Scalia is a reaction to Supreme Court Justices Douglas and Warren.
Purely from a constitutional law standpoint, Douglas and Warren re-wrote the law in some ways according to their own viewpoint.
Scalia says, the constitution says such and such for these reasons.
A Supreme Court Justice is like a Vatican cardinal, who can say what the law is according to his (or her) own preferences.
getalife @ 10:
Great news; gotta link?
Yep
--> McCain's Bind
waterboarding and Republican presidential ambitions ..collided in the Senate.
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/178422.php
Isn't Scalia responsible for torturing the world with gwb to be called potus back in 2000?
Can we forever, from now on in refer to him as Injustice Scalia?
-GSD
Let's hope he eats more cake, develops a 3-pack a day habit and takes up sky-diving. And as a Christian, I mean that in the nicest way.
pissed off patricia @ 15:
It's unlikely that Blackwater supplied those contractors. Blackwater is almost all US military that has been privatized by Bush.
The most likely 'contractors' were MOSSAD, or else rightwing mercenaries hired in from South Africa or Central America, say by a company like CACI.
Should our Supreme Court Justices be going around and telegraphing their opinions on matters about which they may be ruling in the future?
fiver @ 18:
http://dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/2/13/134654/941/584/456059
He is a POS
QuakerDave @ 11:
So I guess he'll soon be forgiving his N. Vietnamese captors?
Sorry, folks, but he looks like Porky Pig, and that's an insult to pigs.
Because he's American, and we're Americans, we can't see him as a personification of evil? I don't think we'd have any problem if he'd been a German judge back in the 1940s.
Sorry,
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/2/13/15712/2539/512/456115
is the correct link.
Antonin Scalia is a sick, mentally ill loon who believes in the devine right of kings - this worthless bastard, is a shit eating liar who, as part of a Junta, over threw our country's voters in 2000 and installed that asshole bushwack cheney but fuck.
You won't get rid of Scalia in '09 without impeachment, but:
There's nothing in the constitution that limits the number of Supreme Court Justices to nine. Congress can change the number by a simple vote.
So how about, say, 12 supremes in '09. Add three young, non-crazy judges, and let the extremists on the court go down to defeat after defeat until they retire in disgust.
I have a personal message for Mr. Scalia, "Van fan culo."
We've gone over the cliff. If that not obvious by now.
So what do those who realize the world has gone completely insane do?
Tough one
Paul in LA @ 29:
Thank you.
Someone needs to smack that fat enabler Scalia in the face. How's about we waterboard him and his buddies George and Dick and see if they liken it to torture or not. If you are going to condone such barbaric acts then surely you should undergo those technics yourself to show that you are not a coward.
I suspect that A.S. would have advised the Roman soldiers who scourged and crucified Jesus how they could make the torture more intense. I am embarassed that this guy claims that he is a Catholic. Obviously, another one with no sense of the meaning of the Gospels.
another fine example of perverted the reichwingneocon nuts are.
one set of rules for the criminal gop, all without consequences,
and one set of rules for the dem extreme punishment even for the
least of alleged offenses .
U.S.S. Exxon versus Chavez
AP via Yahoo! Finance - Feb 13 12:21 PM
Venezuela on Wednesday vowed to defeat Exxon Mobil Corp. in a legal battle as the U.S.-based oil company seeks to freeze Venezuelan assets in the U.S. and Europe.
Feb. 13 (Bloomberg) -- Exxon Mobil Corp. waited 24 hours to inform Venezuela's state oil company of a court order freezing a New York bank account, a tactic that netted $242 million.
So how about, say, 12 supremes in ‘09. Add three young, non-crazy judges, and let the extremists on the court go down to defeat after defeat until they retire in disgust.
FDR tried that, and got smacked down, and rightfully so.
President Obama's task to to replace Ginsburg, Stevens with YOUNG Liberal Judges to counter-act the Young Alito and Robert's appointments.
Then, we wait...rumors have always been out there about Scalia's health...
All the pasta and sausage, the poor guy is heading for a coronary soon!
Scalia admits that his two favorite movies are:
Ilsa, She Wolf of the S.S.
Love Camp 7
WashStateBlue @ 40:
They'll figure out someway medically to keep him on the bench until he's 130 yrs old.
WashStateBlue @ 40:
If I'm remembering history class correctly: FDR threatened to stack the Court; a deal was struck; and the Court started giving FDR more favorable rulings.
Scalia admits that his two favorite movies are:
Ilsa, She Wolf of the S.S.
He thinks it's a feel good romantic comedy.....
Scalia damns His own ludicrous position with His own words. In His '24 hour' doomsday scenario,torture would be justified to determine the whereabouts of a bomb a terrist has planted,etc. ......Think that statement through. How do the interrogators know this individual planted anything? How do they know about this supposed bomb? To interrogate means to ask questions to gain information. IF these supposed interrorgators don't know information,then how is torturing a suspect legal,much less justified,to gain information this suspect may not even know?
If I’m remembering history class correctly: FDR threatened to stack the Court; a deal was struck; and the Court started giving FDR more favorable rulings.
It was kind of a mixed result....he DID get them to flip on the unconsitutionality of the minimum wage, and other New Deal programs....But Blue Dog Democrats (plenty of them back then as well) were emboldened in congress by the action...
Interestingly enough, Roosevelt was proposing it, because the fricking court was packed with over 70 conservatives who REFUSED to step down while he was in office...The deal was, he was going to appt ONE new seat for every justice over 71.5 years old, I think....
He was PISSED cause the old farts from the Hoover era and before just wouldn't kick the bucket!
Kind of the inverse of Ginsburg and Stevens, who, as us in the liberal side of the court, say a pray for every morning that they live forever.....
after a person is found guilty of a crime, we can have a discussion on slapping them around, and even then, just a discussion
when someone is picked up and is only a suspect, they are innocent until proven guilty, end of fucking story
if you think that glad-handling the arrested will be limited to the scary-scary terrorists, you haven't been in the john burge section of county under the auspices of then atty gen dick daley
So torturing someone before he goes to trial is OK but not after. This is the sort of tortured logic I would expect out of a right wingnut blogger, not a Supreme Court justice especially one who apparently is proud of his abilities as a constitutional scholar— it would appear that Scalia has always been a legend in his own mind, or becoming senile, or both!
Goddamn it. If they're willing to BLOW THEMSELVES UP, then why the HELL would they give out information that would thwart an attack? It's just a huge load of HORSE SHIT. All "we're" doing is pissing them off and making them (and indeed the world) hate us even more.
These people who keep using the 'ticking bomb' hypothetical are smoothing over a huge gaping flaw in their little masturbatory torture fantasy that no one ever calls them on, which is that they alway use a variation of the phrase "a suspect who has information..." What I want to know is how the fuck do they know that the poor slob they've got strapped to a board has relevant information to a ticking bomb? Thats a pretty gaping flaw in their reasoning don't you think? The answer is you can't know, that is why you're torturing them. The reality is that they are NOT positing torturing the one person who knows, but torturing all sorts of people for reasons you don't need to know about.
Man I wish an interviewer would ask one of these weak minded fools that question.
Interviewer with Balls: "Excuse me, Judge Scalia, how would our boys know that the subject has and is withholding information about an imminent catastrophic attack?"
Scalia: "You know, when I'm masturbating thinking about torturing people, I've never think about that."
Ass!
D to the Izzle @ 49:
Bingo! Just as IF Saddam had WMD's then why didn't He use them when We invaded? Ummmmmm.
M A N I A C
Madnessssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss
Scalia is nuts... His name sounds like some sort of rash or something doesn't it?
"I went to the Dermatologist and they gave me this cream for my Scalia, the Doctor said it will make it go away..."
Scalia's problem is that he's a failed human being on almost every level. I think he knows that in his heart. (Ooooooooops ... scratch the heart part of that)
*
Impeach them all. Or try them for crimes against humanity.
Using torture as a tool for gathering intelligence is like trying to save a financially troubled firm from bankruptcy by buying lottery tickets.
Scalia as well as the other wingnuts use a distorted version of self-defense as the basis of making these points. The fact that his logic would be seen in a municipal judge would be sad, but coming from a Supreme Court judge is just plain pathetic. Yes, the law allows you to take certain actions in the face of an imminent threat. It is called self-defense. If someone is reasonably seen as a threat, you may defend yourself. Why he brings up the US Constitution is curious, as they didn't include it. There are however, no laws that allow any American to blindly threaten others to find out if they know anything about an imminent threat and no court would allow it. While they argue this in the abstract, they fail to mention to what imminent threat they are referring. Even the administration does not claim to have prevented an imminent threat by using torture, therefore his logic fails.
There are nursing homes for people with problems like this.
KISS - keep it simple for a simpleton.....f you nazi dik wipe...
Filthy Harry @ 50:
Absolutely – well said!
As someone noted before, it’s not the act of torturing the guilty perp who’s withholding critical information that is the ultimate abomination (although a viable one), it’s the ASSUMPTION that they ARE a guilty perp…
Who gets to decide? How do they decide? If the criteria isn’t there (because torture is illegal in the first place), can’t EVERYONE be tortured without fear of retribution? Not just the dark-skinned Arab speaking suicide bomber (whoever the hell that is), but you, me, your son AND daughter – just the same.
And to say a slap in the face is sometimes justified does not grant to anyone the right to slap anyone and everyone in the face just for the hell of it…
F* Scalia! Who cares what that fat bastard has to say anyway? I'd put my boot up his fat ripply ass if he started spouting off like that around me.
RW @ 61:
umm.. he is a Supreme Court Justice, I'm afraid a great many people do sadly care what he has to say *weeps into my scotch*
Just to be sure: this gibbering idiot is telling someone from England about terrorist threats?
Uh, hello? Hello? McFly?
This guy just ignore the past 60 years of their history, or is he too much of a dick to bother with it?
Filthy Harry @ 50:
I was listening to the radio earlier this week and a guest on some talk show said that the point of torture is not to gain information, but rather to force a suspect to say something you want him/her to say. Put in other words, how would you know when to stop torturing someone? If he told you that he was in Al Qaeda and there was a bomb in some building in New York and Osama bin Laden was in a cave in North Wazirastan, wouldn't you just keep torturing him until he stopped being able to give information?
Orwell got it right. "The object of torture is torture. The object of power is power."
The basic rule of human decency should be that if you aren't willing to suffer the punishments society metes out for wrongdoing, you shouldn't be so quick to offer them up.
But Scalia probably has never considered the possibility that he might have to take, one day, what he's so eager to dish out. But his blase attitude has made it a possibility. For us all.
Does this mean Scalia thinks we should torture Harriet Myers and Josh Bolten for refusing to testify in front of Congress?
"A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight; nothing he cares about more than his own personal safety is a miserable creature who has no chance of being free, unless made and kept so by exertions of better men than himself."
John Stuart Mill
Did this crackhead ever study law or the constitution? So now Scalia argues that one doesn't have the right to remain silent? And doesn't the 8th ammendment specifically prohibit "cruel and unusual punishment"?
We need a damn truth and reconciliation commission.
I would like to say for the record that I fully endorse his immediate impeachment.
Disgraceful.
...
Fuck, I didn't realize Tony Soprano was one of The Nine.
Motherbear @ 66:
That's the worst part. This idiot is supposed to be an impartial judge, but everything is conditional on who is asking. No freedom of speech for high school students (bong hits for Jesus case) and the 14th amendment means that we shouldn't try to accurately count votes.
I can't think of a bigger asshole in these united states.
Scalia and his ilk use the same twisted logic the good Catholics used during the Spanish and Portuguese Inquisitions, i.e. they tortured the converted Jews in order to save a good Christian's soul.
Sure, there was a lot more to it than just saving "innocent" Christians, but the message is the same...we want you out of our way and we'll do anything to achieve our goal including death by torture.
And you can bet the "goal" has something to do with money and power and whose gene-pool is best suited to carry on as our species best representatives. Long live Homo vulgaris.
If anybody needs any more of a reason to vote for whichever dem ends up running in the general, I feel sorry for ya. Progressives and dems had better make their vote count this time around, or McBain and the rethugs will have sowen up the court for along time to come.
How can one samll country produce so many evil people :)
And if a slap in the face isn't sufficient surely a little waterboarding would be okay and then, well, hung for a lamb or hung for a sheep, might as well go straight for the electrodes on the testicles.
fiver @ 43:
This is a theory. FDR tried to pass a bill in Congress to allow adding Justices, and didn't have enough votes. Everyone knew from the start of the New Deal that much of the legislation was not Constitutional as such (even though a considerable amount of it was actually from Hoover's administration). Indeed, passage of much of that legislation may have been because Congressional Republicans were sure they could block the law in the Court.
Subsequently, some of the New Deal laws were allowed -- not because of a 'deal,' but because of Court factors, such as the recovery of Justice Stone (who favored minimum wage) and the retirement of another Justice (because Congress passed a law granting elderly Justices full pay if they retires).
The suggestion of a 'deal' ignores the background of the Justices -- those in opposition remained in opposition, but the 1936 landslide may have swayed some votes in itself (without any 'deal,' about which NO evidence has ever been produced. It is strictly speculation).
This guy is on the top ten most dangerous people in high offices in the U.S.
Completely nutters.
i'm buying the drinks when this guy dies.
and i'm ready to party!
Just to reiterate:
If a chief-justice says under some extra-ordinary circumstances torture is justified and therefore NOT illegal, then the door swings wide open. If it’s not ALWAYS illegal, then it IS legal (against all international laws/treaties and ethics). If it is legal, then those who DO torture make the arbitrary determination of who/when/why. Without oversight, without any authority and with complete autonomy, that person can make the decision of who to torture, when to torture, and why to torture. Given the ability to torture anyone at anytime for any reason, some will. As we have seen – some have.
The argument of self-defense is not only weak and fallacious – but historically silly. Why, in past global conflicts, did we deem torture of POWs illegal? Could not some POW know troop deployments, ground movements, and supply chain logistics that would (if they gave such information) “save lives”? Perhaps, but torture of POWs for such information was justifiably considered against the law. And a POW by any other name (enemy combatant) can still die of torture.
Remember just after 9/11 when some people, my self included, thought we should seek justice in the Middle East, to try to understand why they hate us so much that they would do such a thing. But that was nipped in the bud, and now we have this endless war and each day we loose more of our soul.
There is no way to end this because they won't give up and why should they?
What a dick. Maybe we can also start racking them first, then we can hang them and draw and quarter them.
If you guys want to have a good round-up of the ramifications of the torture debate, i suggest you read all essays by Arthur Silber:
http://thesacredmoment.blogspot.com/2006/01/on-torture.html
I wrote this on another blog regarding the upcoming election but I think it's also applicable here. There may not be much that can be done about scalia, but his influence is most likely going to decline. Here's why I think so:
In my opinion, things are looking pretty dire for the republican party overall. Not only are they most likely going to lose the white house, but 29 republican Congressmen and Senators have chosen not to run for re-election. This will most likely lead to an even larger majority for the Democratic party in both the House and in the Senate.
Also, the Supreme Court currently has 4 justices that are in their 70s and 1 in his 80s. I would say there is a very good chance that the next president will nominate a couple of new judges to the Court. I'll go out on a limb and predict that no matter how many new judges are brought into the Court, politically, they will all be far to the left of scalia.
i am curious about one thing that scalia said.
he basically stated that gitmo is not us proper
i thought that gitmo is us territory as it is a us naval base
also, what scalia presents is what happens when the law is purely philosophical masturbation
if the constitution is not a living, breathing document...it dies
which is why it has been so easy for the bushies to subvert it
oh, and in keeping with his being a strict traditionalist....how does he now explain his vote in 2000?
What would you expect from a man who's said to belong to a group that tortures themselves every day - and they love it. The churchier the man, the more violent and malevolent.
As an attorney who cares about America and constitutional rights, I will be glad when he dies.
Christ. Scalia is just another Catholic boy who loves torture. By the looks of his fat face, he's torturing himself with food. He probably has a nude calendar of altar boys, too.
Tim in Japan @ 82:
True, but just who isn't to the left of Scalia?
Someone needs to put a bullet in Scalia's head (hey, it's NOT torture.)
Matt in Texas @ 87:
Thomas. Believe it or not, he's worse.
uncle joe mccarthy @ 83:
The U.S. "rents" the land from Cuba, who has not cashed the rent check since Castro came to power, because he wants us to leave his country. In a recent press conference, Dana Perrino said that there are no permanent U.S. bases on foreign soil (in answer to a question about the HUGE bases we're building in Iraq) - that if a country wants us to leave, we would simply leave.
Bullshit. If that were the case we'd have left Gitmo 40 years ago.
Favorite Antonin Scalia quote:
"Mere factual innocence is no reason not to carry out a death sentence properly reached."
I know all I need to know about this sorry piece of shit.
I use that quote, by the way, in my yet to be published book called
The Top 100 Assholes That Fucked Up Our Democracy (or what little we had)
It will not get published - too much truth for a deluded country to handle.
Rusty Shackleford @ 88:
Good point. I stand corrected. (What a scary thought - someone worse than Scalia.)
Rusty Shackleford @ 88:
Good point - I stand corrected. (What a scary thought - someone WORSE than Scalia.)
Frank @ 90:
Oops - sorry about the unintentional embed.
Yeah because a light tap in the face would definitely make a hardened terrorist confess instantly everything he knows about the bomb plot so Keifer can go find it. It would never ever escalate from that.
And the authorities are NEVER EVER WRONG. EVER. They have never arrested an innocent man. EVER.
And if you say otherwise you're a fucking terrorist.
Impeach the bastard!
What I hate most about his argument is that it ignores the fact that we have subjected almost every person designated enemy combatant to some form of torture. We expect to bring charges to somewhere around ten percent I think, I didn't look that up. It is a very low number anyway. That means that 75-90% of the people we tortured didn't do anything wrong. Their testimony didn't save any lives because they didn't know anything.
There is a huge difference between saving lives (the bomb scenario they always love to use) through the last minute, no other choice use of torture and torturing someone to see if they know anything. The first is at least understandable, if not excusable. The second bears no resemblance to anything human, American, or otherwise.
I have read mention of a torture warrant before. Would this not be a choice that all could see as a compromise? Don't get me wrong, I am as anti-torture as anybody, but in the nuke in Grand Central Station hypothetical, I can't say that it wouldn't come to mind. But if it required judicial approval and oversight (with someone other than Scalia as the judge that is) it would be used only as a last means, last resort sort of thing. Before you condemn me for this suggestion, at least admit that it would be a step forward from where we are now.
Screw them all for using this type of example time and again, and an even bigger middle finger to the media who fail to ever challenge them on this.
If I’m remembering history class correctly: FDR threatened to stack the Court; a deal was struck; and the Court started giving FDR more favorable rulings.
Even the most right-wing Federalist Society types do not defend the line of cases that were overturned as a result of that deal.
The solution for Nino is plain: impeach him. I don't know if he is convictable, but he needs to be held to account. Alito, too (for perjury).
These guys have pissed on the graves of the Founding Fathers and I hope I live long enough to return the favor.
No W Now @ 96:
Well then, if we're going to deal in fanciful scenarios....In the event of a ticking time bomb scenario ala 24. You do your torture. You get your information. You make it public and you take responsibility for your actions and do your prison time. If there was an actual bomb and you stopped it from blowing up LA then you get to be the hero who broke the law, paid the price and gain some small fraction of his honor back from doing it. If not, you go to prison for torturing an innocent person and if in the event that you torture someone he gives you false information and you go off chasing it and LA does blow up killing millions of people because you were busy getting your rocks off torturing someone you get executed for aiding and abetting a terrorist. Because you helped him spread terror, recruit more terrorists and degraded the honor of America and people STILL died en masse.
How about that?
If there are real consequences to pulling this sort of shit, then we are regular ordinary citizens are less likely to find ourselves strapped to a board and having water poured up our nose in the even that we got a parking ticket or just because some judge didn't like the way our hair was parted.
Taarak @ 78:
OOo Oo! I know the answer! Because 9/11 changed everything!
We sat under the thread of nuclear annihilation on an hours notice from the moment Russia got the bomb until the moment the Berlin wall came down. I don't recall anyone gleefully licking their chops to electrocute someone's testicles for fun.
So here's the question then. If torture isn't always illegal... and it's legal. Then why the fuck can I walk into my neighbor's house, strap him to his kitchen table and rape him with a lamp post wrapped in broken glass? He MIGHT BE a terrorist after all. He might know about the bomb about to blow up LA..... it's permissible in certain circumstances.
What if the circumstances happen to be that i'm a delusional psychopath in a position of power and I just happen to LIKE torturing people just to hear them scream. So I make up bullshit charges because I know nobody's going to stop me from doing it and I'll never serve a single hour of jail time or be executed.
Torture IS and should be illegal. Under every circumstance. From the ticking time bomb to the assholes up the street trying to force intelligent design into science class.
We've entered a dark new time ladies and gentlemen. A new dark age. Where fear, power and money are the most important things of all and we the people allowed it to happen.
The most telling thing in that interview is that Scalia says: "...where he has hidden the bomb that is about to blow up Los Angeles."
Why Los Angeles? Of all cities to choose that might be under threat, why does Scalia pick Los Angeles?
Well, because Los Angeles is the setting for the t.v. show "24," and the "hidden bomb" scenario is a frequent one for the fictional Jack Bauer.
Good God. Our country's policy is being made and ruled upon by t.v. fan couch potatoes who think Jack Bauer is a real person. Scalia might as well have started raving about the "Klingon Threat."
I've always felt neocons were thwarted Trekkies who weren't even cool enough to get into Science Fiction conventions, and, thus, turned their fandom toward politics. So here's Scalia, a judge on the highest court in our country, is literally making comments on the legality of torture based on a fictional t.v. show character. Unless we send these cretins back to their parent's basements to which they belong, we are so doomed.
I'm as liberal as the next guy. I don't agree with Scalia very much, but I think this is a solid argument. In a ticking time bomb scenario, how do you define a proper interrogation method vs. the possibility of saving hundreds of lives? Anyone who argues that it is a simple decision has a weak argument. This discussion cuts deep to the definition of our morality. I don't know what the right answer is. I think that it is nearly impossible to define a rule that would govern every single scenario.
That being said, I do think that we need to have a policy against 'torture' (in quotes because the definition of torture is extremely vague). But, I think it would be naive to say that we should never, under any circumstances, use it. Let's be honest with ourselves; if you were the president and you could save hundreds of lives by torturing someone to get information, then you probably would. I would.
and this just opens the door for our soldiers to be tortured in more inhumane ways. Then the media and wingers will cry about what barbarians our enemies are and that's why we need to be just like them. That's right, not only give up the moral high ground but do it at the expense of our military. Republicans sure support the troops don't they?
Last but not least, one of our Supreme Court justices runs around making points based on a Fox TV show. Can you imagine how hard other countries must laugh at this. At least the British have the nerve to ask real questions of these criminals and to press back when they get stupid replies like Scalia did. Too bad our media is more concerned with access than investigative journalism.
Enough said, time to go to bed and hope once again that when I wake up I'll find that these last 7+ years have just been a bad dream.
kro @ 103:
No you're not. Quit lying about it. If you think Scalia has some valid argument here, then believe in what you said in paragraph 2, then you are in no way shape or form 'liberal,' 'left' or progressive. You have a 'Federalist Society' mentality.
It seems to embarrass you, or you wouldn't make such a hilarious claim at the very beginning of your post. You might want to ask yourself why that is.
Scalia = Judge Ernst Janning
Impeach the Supreme Clowns!
Ah the new great America, a kick in the balls of our founding fathers, the rotting corpse of great ideals, gagging high minded freedom with a dark fear and hate. Welcome, welcome to the end of a great plan.
Old Billy @ 67:
I love when the right wingnuts praise Scalia as a great "conservative thinker". (Yes, an oxymoron) He sounds like somebody with a limited education and anger management issues.
Has Scalia always been such a bloated fathead, or has it actually gotten worse in the past few years?
kro @ 103:
Well then where do you draw the line?
You know that X person is going to murder someone. You think Y knows something about it. Do you go torture him?
You know that X person is going to pirate movies. You think Y knows something about it. Do you torture him?
There really is no gray area here. Torture is wrong. It doesn't matter if 10,000,000 are going to die. It's still wrong and if you step over that line then you need to face the consequences.
The fact is that if someone actually produced good results under a ticking time bomb scenario, did in fact find a bomb in NYC and save 10 million people no court in the land would convict him. But since torture doesn't produce factual results the chance of that happening is slim to none.
Think about it for a second. You're a terrorist. You're in the custody of the CIA. You know that they're going to torture you for information but you also know that America is the Great Satan and by opposing it you will earn your place in heaven. You steel yourself . You know the bomb is in LA and is going off in an hour. You also know that your enemy will likely execute you anyway once they are done. Are you actually going to tell them about LA? No. You're going to strike right at the heart of your enemy and tell them that the bomb is in NYC and is going off tomorrow afternoon. Let us not forget that the object of terrorism is to affect political change by using force or the threat of force. These are not rational people who have other options open to them. They can't go to their parliament or to their Congressmen to vent their frustrations. They can't roll up with 10 brigades of tanks and war planes to fight their enemy. They commit terrorism because they have no other options.
Which is why we need oversight and why torture needs to be illegal. Not just because it is immoral. Not just because it gives terrorists the mental justification for the acts of terror they commit. Not just because it doesn't give truthful information. But because innocent people will be suffering because those in power can abuse them with impunity.
We're not talking about this mythical scenario. We're talking about how because of this mythical scenario and a lack of oversight on the person who makes the determination on who is a terrorist and who is not gets to do ANYTHING they want. Rape, murder, theft, arson whatever... Any atrocity, because they can just say "Well there was a ticking time bomb so it was justified."
What if they decide that Berkley California is a nest of terrorists and the only way to weed them out is to bomb the city. If one can justify torture, then one can justify mass murder.
And if terrorists can be tortured and anyone can be declared a terrorist and no one can challenge it, then YOU can be tortured.
This is an in your face declaration by the Federal Government again that it really wants to go to war with the people of the United States again!
bobbyjoe @ 102:
In his testimony Mukasey spoke of balancing the heinousness of torture against the possibility of saving innocent lives. As many people here have said you cannot know that a suspect has such knowledge when you begin to torture him. Torture therefore begins as an act of faith and we all know what zealous people of faith are capable of doing. Torture will ultimately be seen as George Bush's true faith based initiative.
OK, I'm having major "embed" and typo problems tonight. My apologies to all. It's either steroid rage or Romulan Ale.
Thanks Matt in Texas... I have a couple of Office Depot bound first-runs and am looking into self publishing in a better quality format....
Scalia, Thomas, Alito, Roberts and Kennedy = STARK.
As in STARK-raving mad justices on SCOTUS, who are nothing more than jackboot-lickin', butt-kissers of POTUS and a bunch of far-right-wing Fascist RIPublican legal weasels.
kro @ 103:
kro @ 103:
oops! my bad embed :/ let's try that again -
why don't you start by defining "torture" as anything that you WOULD NOT want done to yourself...
Scalia, Rummey, Cheney, and Bushy all need a taste of torture so we can settle this insanity once and for all. If you can stand it check out the new documentary Taxi To the Dark Side by the same guy who directed the Enron documentary. Very difficult to watch but you realize we have lost our way and sold our souls to the devil. Approximately 80,000 plus have been tortured and some of them have been released. If they weren't terrorist before torture they will be afterwards. Blowback will be just the beginning and payback is a bitch. The Orwell quote above says it all "The object of torture is torture" it is not about information but it is about sending a message that the "gloves are off" and we are no longer the good guys. And IMHO it is also about creating a 100 years war ala Mr. War Hero McCain. The more we kill each other the richer they get plain and simple. Just ask Prescott Bush or George Herbert Walker if war can make you wealthy.
Paul in LA @ 3:
I believe that Justice Scumbaggia has many more IMPEACHable offenses in the last 7 years. He seems to forget that separation of powers means the three branches stay separated. So if, say, the VP inivtes you along on trips or over to his house to discuss pending court cases, you kind of have to say NO. Not Scumbaggia. He loves him some conflict of interest along with obstruction of justice on the side.
If we ever do get our country back, it's going to be a busy time kicking ass. But I'm not holding my breath.
It's not the intellectual dishonesty of these Klassy Konstitutional Kristians, it's the motivational sadism: IMPEACH! Where is Vince Bugliosi when we need him!
I'd like to smack his stupid fat face and see what perverted tales he squeals
You know who Scalia would resemble if you combed a shock of hair down over his left forehead and painted a little brush mustache over his lip?
Mr. Justice Scalia is a Roman Catholic. He learned the principles of torture from the Popes in the School of the Inquisition. Why would anyone be surprised at his support of torture? Can anything good come out of Rome? Hitler was also a Roman Catholic. So what news do you have? This is not news. He has a consistent record against habeas corpus which was existent before his appointment. What other reason would there be for his appointment? He is a dictator's dream Judge. Most judges are judges because they cannot earn a living as attorneys.
I wonder how you prove (on what authority is the decision made) that the person you're about to torturing actually possesses the information you want? and how do you know when that person has successfully met that demand?
Riley @ 127:
Duh Riley, it's very easy. The person you are about to torture is a terrorist as long as they look like one or you paid a lot of money to Mushareff to tell you he is, and they have told you everything you want to know when you are tired of torturing him.
You don't sound very Amerikan to me Riley. Asking all these pesky questions. Maybe we need to take you down to HS HQ and ask you a few questions. Let Scumbaggia slap you around a little.
Antonin "Fat Tony" Scalia is a terrifying illustration of the U.S. Constitution's greatest failing: appointment and term of Supreme Court justices. The fact that this blatant, unrepetant street thug could get anywhere near the Supreme Court is bad enough, but the fact that he can squat on this powerful body and pervert U.S. law for the rest of his life is truly disgusting.
Impeachment is not just for Presidents. Judges can be impeached as well - even SCROTUS judges are subject to impeachment.
Sorry, but a SCROTUS judge that holds torture to be all A-OK is a judge ripe for impeachment. Seriously, there are some serious "shots across the bows" that needs to go on in this country against criminals in our government. Impeaching Cheney would be a good shot across the bow of the Bush Administration and everything it has done. An impeachment of Scalia would be a good shot across the bow of the "conservative" (ie, extremely partisan and anti-Constitution) judges in the Judiciary. It would go a long way to shutting down Thomas, Alito, and Roberts so they would know they cannot give a pass on torture.
Impeachment. We need a BIG impeachment party to start right now. Hell, let's impeach the entire government. They are all criminals and corrupt.
The ticking time bomb scenario [TTBS] is flawed: "to determine where he has hidden the bomb that is about to blow up Los Angeles is prohibited in the constitution
- How do you know there is a bomb that is about to go off?
- Who told you this information?
- Why aren't you talking to the person/source that provided this information?
If a source isn't talking, but you "know" here is a bomb about to go off, you're not talking to the source that informed you of the problem. Put the burden of proof on those who are saying, "That person knows there is a bomb about to go off."
Every time I see a picture of Scalia I have a hard time not visualizing him in a French maid costume, down on all fours with a riding crop shoved up his butt, being flogged by a leather-clad vixen while crying out: "Harder Mistress! Harder!"
But perhaps his private life is not relevant here.
So,
With Judge Scalia's interpretation of torture laws I could place his balls in a vise and smack his dick with a 3 pound sledge hammer if I felt he was a terrorist threat?
Sign me up for that!
Troubled Texan
For every person that we torture (disregarding the Constitution, International Law and The Geneva Convention) we just create countless others that will hate us and try to get revenge, thus creating more terrorist attacks and more innocent victims while Scalia and the likes hide under what they call The Rule of Law.
What a shame that we have come to this!
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