Countdown: John McCain's Tortured Logic And Flip Flop On Torture
By Nicole Belle Thursday Feb 14, 2008 12:01pm
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Countdown's Keith Olbermann and guest Rachel Maddow look at the derailment of the straight talkin' Maverick John McCain into the craven torture-endorsing flip-flopper that appears to have sold his integrity for the endorsement of the Republican leadership.
MADDOW: The White House admits, as of this month, to authorizing waterboarding. And they say that they authorized it because the way they looked at the law, they’re allowed to do that. It’s legal. Yeah right, but that’s what the White House said. They said, ‘The way we interpreted the law, we thought it was legal and we’re happy that we did it, and it was very useful.’ So Congress has therefore passed something that says, ‘actually, clearly, plainly, obviously this is illegal, if you didn’t think it was illegal before, let us make it more obvious for you.’ And that’s what John McCain voted against. So, in context, and logically, it is a vote for waterboarding because the White House has used this legal explanation, this legal cutthroat explanation, in order to…in order to justify what they admit to having already done. [..]
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This decision is so plainly a political decision. This is John McCain reversing himself, not only in terms of being for waterboarding now, but the grounds on which he is for waterboarding. I mean, he’s the guy who made the argument that the Army Field Manual was sufficient. The only thing we need to understand about this is that John McCain made a sudden and otherwise inexplicable change of heart since November. A change of heart that brings him in line with what appears to be the Republican strategy for the general election this year, which is to pick deliberately provocative, deliberately controversial fights on the issues that they want this election to be about. They want the election to be about war, and torture and Guantanamo. So they’re picking fights on those issues, even though they know a lot of Americans disagree with them on these issues. They’re picking fights on those issues so those will be the things we’re talking about around the election because they think that will help Republicans.
Given McCain's own signed "confession" after four days of continued torture during his own POW days, he knows only too well how false information and confessions can be coerced by torture. And yet, even though it happened to him, he's unwilling to take a stand against torturing detainees. And why? To fall in line with the Republican party strategy for framing the debate this election season. Yup, there's a maverick for you.
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Foist!
heh
the straight talk express hydroplaning ... that was a good one
Who cares? Ain't no waaay in tarhooties he's gonna get to the W.H. except as part of a tour.
As a victim of torture, if McCain says waterboarding is ok, I must be all wrong on the issue.
Don't forget he donated money to Nicaraguan Contras in 1988!!
http://digg.com/2008_us_elections/John_McCain_personally_donated_to_Cont...
This man is a crock of shit. He should really be in the forefront against torture, but it's obvious he's completely sold his soul out, and I can't give this man an iota of respect.
Good God this election is getting scary! Is this the best the Republican party can come up with? Please, somebody wake me from this nightmare!
Right. And at the same time the vast majority of the corporate/ repiglican media .. all the soul less pigs that mouth the corporate agenda .. continue to lie, lie, lie about their corporate Saint McCain .. the straight talk express , the maverick, won't pander to the right, and all the bullshit continues with purpose .. with deliberate and conscious choices being made by these soul less pigs to deceive public perception so that they rabid hope that the Saint can get installed as the next president so that the corporate agenda can be sustained: a government and social system for the few and by the few .. that greed by these few is sustained .. this is why the corporate 'reporter's ' and 'journalists' have been made millionairs by these corporations .. to do their bidding because of ... they no longer have souls .. instead, in there place, are only a rancid abscess of evil puss
Most revealing picture I have seen of Bush is on Huffpost.
His dark side is in full view.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/
rachel maddow and KO should stop playing in the pro-torture, GOP sandbox and STOP calling this crime ‘waterboarding’. that is the pre-approved PR name for it given by those that wish to mold our intel and interrogation practices on the nazis, khmer rouge and imperial japan.
if the weak-willed, morally compromised, pathetic and dishonest rethugs want to argue aggressively FOR torture, it is up to the thinking class to refute their orwellian phraseology and be straight with the people.
so start calling it what it was, is and will be:
WATER TORTURE
Bush Family = Crooks
Crooks endorse McCain
McCain = Ongoing Criminal Coverup
The American people have had enough.
Wow. ..the 200,000-person petition goal we set for our petition calling on
the superdelegates to listen to the voters in the Democratic primary.
http://pol.moveon.org/superdelegates
oh, tangentially, mccain's call for our permanent, centuries long, occupation of iraq is evidently bothering him...
thus...
keep bringing up the fact that mccain WANTS a permanent bloody occupation of iraq. decades, centuries, millennia, etc.
I'm so very tired of people who don't read. Does anyone read anymore? Are we literate only to the extent of that which we wish to see?
John McCain's statement during the debates on the "torture" (ha!) bill:
http://mccain.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=PressOffice.PressRe...
The bill itself, which is not as simple as "No torture" and includes provisions that would allow the CIA, FBI, Capitol Police, Secret Service, and "other Federal elements" make warantless arrests:
http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/2007_rpt/srpt110-2.html
Shut. Up.
Read.
Oh, and for those of us who aren't proficient enough at reading to find the terrifying provisions ourselves:
Look up sections 310, 424, and 432.
McCain and Romney, a pair of Flip-Flops, Now we can head for the beach!
(snark)
What a poor tortured soul that John McCain is...bless his heart.
Hmmm ... McCain and Romney, A PAIR of Flip-Flops, now we can head for the beach.
(snark)
Liberal AND Proud, Bangkok Bob
Did you read the bill? Did you read McCain's debate comments?
I didn't think so. Now be quiet.
How many times does this subject need to be covered till people "get it".
Sheesh
McCain will say anything to anyone to get their vote. He has flip-flopped on torture and now on his "economic" stance. He was quoted last week or the week before as saying he was not as up on economics as he should be and just last night on Larry King Sen. John McCain (R-AZ) tried to make the argument that, among the remaining presidential candidates, he is best suited to address “the economic challenges we face” because of his “extensive background” and “knowledge” of the economy.
So really just who is John McCain? What does he really believe? Where does he want to take this country? All honest questions and all, if asked of McCain, will have different answers depending on who he is talking with at the time.
[Deleted. Off topic-Sitemonitor]
Sad pathetic old man. Sold his soul to the GOP...and he still won't win in November. Hope he can still look at himself in the mirror during his remaining years.
The Truth Hurts @ 20:
All these guys care about is the comfort and luxury money can buy.
They are capitalists not moralists.
Good God, you people are dense.
Has anyone actually read the bill or McCain's debate comments? (found above)
Or is this just the liberal version of circle-jerkers rightwingnews.org?
Carpet-muncher or not, Rachel's pure hotness and I'd love me some.
J
What a motto,
CHANGE YOU CAN BELIEVE IN,
Well seems every body is charged with flip flopping
Which is change? Isn’t flip flopping change.. ??
So essentially Obama motto
FLIP FLOPING YOU CAN BELIEVE IN
McCrazy's a real standup guy. Barf!
I keep wondering when John will acknowledge the statements he made toward the end of his captivity where he said the things the North Vietnamese had wanted him to say - namely that he was sorry for his criminal acts and that he had bombed innocent women and children, and the like. Then he could use that as an example of the kind of information you get when you torture - he's said as much, that if you torture someone long enough you can get them to say anything. Then again that would make him look weak to his Repugnent base, wouldn't it? Heh, heh, heh.
DirtyDawg @ 25:
That is a phenomenal point! My friends and I were just discussing this very thing the other day.
Here's hoping we have some good, rich lefty "Swift Boaters" with a nice video of this waiting in the wings for November.
J
Radically Moderate @ 8:
Half and Half man.
OK, C&L, that article you link to is a piece. A nasty one.
Are we going to result to stupid BS Swift Boat-ish tactics as well?
Sean @ 12:
So you're saying that McCain didn't vote for torturing us, so much as he voted for allowing the CIA, FBI and "others" (Blackwater?) to WARANTLESSLY arrest us? And that is a good thing, why?
Now I hate him not only because he flipped on torture but also because he is sneaky in stealing my last few remaining rights. Guess I should feel safer now?
The Best GOP candidate that money can buy!
I remember when Reagan was president and after he got shot by an attempt on his life, how quickly his political agenda change. I think how insidious this has all become was the inspiration of the Dark Sithe of Star Wars. seriously, Star War came out during his presidency.
FranksnBeans @ 26:
Someone definitely came out with guns blazing ahead of the 06 Congressional elections and picked off the Rethugs with authority.
It's just to bad the Dems caved and didn't follow through on what they were elected to do.
Just goes to show how evil the North Vietnamese were.
They didn't have to torture McCain. They could have gotten him to say anything by withholding support for his presidential run.
Bastards!
McCain is a feint shadow of the guy that tried to stand up
to the Bush Machine in 2000.
When he kissed Jerry Falwells ass, that was it for me.
The poor schmuck, the sad thing is, THEY STILL HATE HIM
on the far right, RR......
What did it get him?
There is still a fondness for him in the independent middle.
But Obama will slash him to ribbons with all this flip-flopping,
and this torture thing is the worst of them all.
John, the % of the voting population that even REMEMBERS the Vietnam
war is such a large percentage down in 8 Years, that you
haven't got a prayer with the youth vote, so your biggest
hold card is off the table.
Obama just needs to pick a foreign policy wonk as his VP,
Clark, Richardson, Biden..
McCain will have to pick a firebreathing winger to salve the right,
and that will be an anchor to try to drag when he runs for the middle.
>so start calling it what it was, is and will be:
WATER TORTURE
...or Attempted Murder by Drowning
Pretty Much sums it up.
http://tinyurl.com/2oljte
Sean @ 12:
so then why did he not vote for a ban on water torture? hmmmmmmmmmmm?
you are right, he wrote a mighty letter to the preznut... but when it came to put his wrinkled hand in the air to disapprove of water torture he backed down and surrendered to the reichwing (again), "maverick"-style.
and when asked about his weak-willed hypocracy, what does mccain say?
“We always supported allowing the C.I.A. to use extra measures,” john mccain.
(http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/14/washington/14cong.html?ei=5088&en=239b...)
so, from what i gather, mccain preaches that water torture should be illegal... but he thinks we should let the cia do it, just don't tell us.
mccain: brave, brave, brave sir robin.
Oh people people people whats it going to take to create a peaceful and tolerant society and world.
Samson- @ 36:
You need to shorten those links or the page wrap screws up.
Here's a good way.
http://tinyurl.com/create.php?url=about:blank
L.A. Confidential @ 38:
sorry, my bad
Sean @ 16:
http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/12/15/torture.bill/index.html
FLIP
http://thinkprogress.org/2008/02/13/mccain-waterboarding-fail/
FLOP
Now...go off and play with the xenophobic creationist torturers.
As a Naval Academy graduate, McCain will not lie, cheat, or steal. But, he will whore himself out in a nanosecond to gain support from the hardcore right.
All Naval Academy grads should be so proud.
L.A. Confidential @ 38:
Ooh oooh pick me I know!!!! A democrat in the White House, with a congress to support the prez, not an obstructionary (repug) one!!!!!
Sean @ 12:
Good links!
BobD @ 44:
Let me see if I get this partisan political thing right. So, for the last 8 years, a Republican controlled Whitehouse Regime, has done whatever it wanted, whenever it wanted because it controlled CONgress too. Then in 2006 the Dems took over majority (barely) and still the regime does whatever, whenever it wants to. And the solution to this, is the replacement of one party, with another party, giving them the same majority status? So, what is to say the new regime will do anything different? Cuz they say so? I think I've heard that one before somewhere.
I hope the Democratic nominee pummels McCain for such a disgraceful flip-flop. McCain deserves to have his ass handed to him over this issue -- and it will happen.
Hey, McCain, there's a storm coming, buddy. I almost feel sorry for you...
no, I don't.
It is beyond comprehension how a man who was tortured almost to death and forced to confess falsely could have anything but contempt for the practice and those who employ it. I can't understand why the conservotard base hasn't wrapped him in a flag and embraced him considering he's willing to push aside his previous sentiments just so he can promote the steaming pile of policy they insist on inflicting on the rest of us.
LOLZ
McCain's abandonment of principle in voting for the torture bill is the worst betrayal
since Obama left his principles behind and campaigned for Lieberman.
What a contest this will be.
Two pinheads going toe to toe.
TimeOff @ 50:
You are wrong to call McCain and Obama "pinheads".
Self-serving bullshitters is closer to the mark.
AlainBaines @ 51:
All politicians are self-serving bullshitters. That is hardly the point. The issue is whether or not their bullshit includes upholding the laws, intent of the laws, and the principles of the United States of America.
okay this is probably a really bad thing to say but when I heard that John John had flip flopped about torture the first thing I thought was;
"John if torture is okay, raise your arms."
I think the Democrats are triangulating themselves out of a legal position where they can prosecute cases of torture committed by the Bush administration. By now making it official that waterboarding is torture and hence prohibited, they leave a gaping loophole through which the Bushistas can claim that there issue of its being torture was debatable before the resolution and hence not prosecutable.
clytemnestra @ 53:
Would have made a good group question during the debates.
America wouldn't be America without the twisted likes of John McCain.
AlainBaines @ 51:
Read it and weep Obama supporters:
Who came to his rescue? Sen. Barak Obama, with a ringing endorsement.
"I know that some in the party have differences with Joe," Senator Obama said, all but silencing the crowd. "I'm going to go ahead and say it. It's the elephant in the room. And Joe and I don't agree on everything. But what I know is, Joe Lieberman's a man with a good heart, with a keen intellect, who cares about the working families of America."
Then, with applause beginning to build, he finished the thought: "I am absolutely certain that Connecticut's going to have the good sense to send Joe Lieberman back to the United States Senate." That time, people cheered loudly.
http://www.talkleft.com/story/2006/04/02/164/90446
MargeAggedon @ 48:
Often those that have been abused go on later to abuse others in a similar fashion, if they haven't received any treatment. All accounts indicate that John McCain has refused any treatment what so ever concerning his POW treatment. So he wanders around untreated, obviously needing anger management and imposing his "tortured" self on America.
mccan'ts flip-flop on torture
He finds his thongs painful.
clytemnestra @ 53:
That's not bad at all, that hits directly on the primary issue: McCain has not been consistent or honest on a very serious issue, one that he should know better about.
I would love to see this question put to him on public TV, put some perspective on things.
Permanent injury, high likliehood of death: that's what we're talking about here.
Rachel Maddow you're my hero! Sexiest intellectual ever. Be my Valentine!
Unfortunately, these are the things the people will want to hear after the next convenient "attack" comes (probably sometime before the end of summer). Imagine these kinds of talking points right after 9/11. Yeah -- you get the picture. A repugnicunt will be in office again come January whether it's McCain or Dubya.....
Olbermann stopped kissing Obama's ass long enough to complain about McCain kissing conservative ass. Tortured logic indeed.
kerplunk @ 58:
When you look at it that way it makes sense. He'll have no problem inflicting suffering on others because he thinks everyone deserves it.
The article you linked to, "Puffing up John McCain, POW," is disturbing. I agree with the point that McCain, having been tortured into saying untrue things, should know that torture is ineffective as well as immoral. But the article goes farther.
Although the article pays lip service to the idea that anyone would break under torture, it uses phrases like "he was no Jean Moulin," and "it wasn’t the first time McCain broke under pressure," that clearly criticize McCain for not being able to resist day after day of intense pain, fear of amputation, and fear of death.
It is right to criticize McCain for his current stance. It is wrong to belittle the torment he endured and the strength it took to simply survive. Shame on Ted Rall for writing such a piece, and shame on you for linking to it.
For those disagreeing with me (Liberal and Proud and whoever else)
Again.
Did.
You.
Read.
That.
Bill?
That was a horrifying piece of legislation that would have allowed federal agents from a half dozen agencies ARREST US CITIZENS WITHOUT WARRANTS.
McCain voted AGAINST that bill. Furthermore, the provision for across-the-board interrogation standards? One paragraph. The bill itself? 46 pages.
McCain's statement DURING the debate on that bill says, in effect: "I am against water torture, but I don't feel that this bill is passable." "This bill" meaning all forty six pages - not just one paragraph.
Liberal AND Proud @ 52:
The fact that Obama and McCain are both self-serving bullshitters is the point.
If someone is a bullshitter - there is no way to tell which way they will go on any issue - including upholding the laws, etc.
It is particularly galling that McCain is presented as straight-talk and Obama is presented as the second coming.
They are both pieces of the same fabric that continues to enslave us.
Sean @ 66:
He voted against the bill because it made him look good to the right wing...who he needs...and he knew the President would veto it if it ever reached his desk.
That's why. Don't place some noble righteousness on St. McCain. He's not noble nor a saint. He's a pandering old fool who'd torture his mother for the Presidency.
Liberal AND Proud @ 68:
Saint McCain is a pandering old fool.
Saint Obama is a pandering middle-aged fool.
He'll say anything to anybody.
Love Lieberman.
Love Donnie McClurkin.
Love torture.
Whatever.
Love me.
Elect me.
Later.
The bullshit intellectual's wet dream.
It has been clear for many years, now, that John McCain is an unprincipled, amoral sociopath who is a bond-slave to his ego. When you pop the hood to see what's underneath, what makes him run, there is little else except a bottomless cesspit of ambition towards self-aggrandizement and an insatiable hunger for self-exaltation. This act demonstrates it for all to see. If he becomes president, I wonder how many millions will have to be sacrificed on the blood alter of his ego?
Your proof, Liberal and Proud, I can has it?
McCain just needs a refresher course on his POW treatment.
You know, this is a crazy thought, BUT, which is more likely? That McCain has done insane? Or that he's putting neocon ideology on a pedestal, knowing full well in November that pedestal will become a chopping block?
Seriously. The guy is 71 years old. He's been doing this forever. 2000 was really his last shot, and the Republican party f'd him in the ass with a rusty lead pipe and then threw him under a bus. So why not settle this ideological debate between the sane and the neoconservative insane, for at least another generation, by making him its icon. For him to espouse the embodiment of that ideology, and use all of George, and Dick, and Karl's talking points and for it to get it's balls cut off and ass carved, and then canned and served to the Republican party? How about that?
Either that, or he's really crazy as in I'm not saying that to make fun of him, but really crazy. What are the odds this guy, who has taken a near 180 degree turn inside of two years, has actually gone ape shit mad?
I wonder what's really going on here.
What's he want? There aren't enough evangelists to elect him. Do they have money for him? If he wants votes he better take a look at the moderates.
It seems that the GOP thinks that the middle part of the political spectrum is in the bag.
Newsflash :recently the website of "Prison Planet.com (Alec Jones) claimed that a group of
Vietnam veterans also incarcerated with John McCain at the time now take umbrage with his
statement of having been "tortured almost to death. Allegedly his name among his compatriots
was " SONGBIRD" for his willingness to tell all.(whatever that meant).He alledgedly also got
preferential medical treatment once it was established that his immediate family carried
military records of great distinction.
Did he make it up?? Only his comrades would know for sure-Best of British Luck to all.
Keith Olbermann calls Bush a fascist. I bet Keith Olbermann doesn't even know what the word means. I think he needs to grow up and get away from his teen aged antics and comments. He a sore loser because O'Reilly kicks his butt on the ratings in prime time TV. [deleted--do not advocate violence on this website] I'm fed up with their daily lies.
Is it just me, or are the ReThugnicans looking more and more like both
sides of slimy people in the movie, "Used Cars"?
http://imdb.com/title/tt0081698/quotes
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