Don't Worry, Be Happy
By Nicole Belle Sunday Feb 17, 2008 8:34am
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I admit to being completely biased to the appeal of Denmark, as my family is Danish and I travel to Denmark as frequently as I am able to see them. But a recent study has borne out what I've experienced myself for years: the people of Denmark are the happiest people on Earth. (study here-U.S. is #26)
But Danish happiness is one that most Americans don't seem to grasp, because most Americans confuse well being with being well off. Danish happiness is derived from lower expectations, rather than having to be #1. The need to be superlative is supplanted with a contentment of where you are and not needing to keep up with the Joneses. It is also a contentment of not worrying about some basic necessities: healthcare, childcare, education, retirement and long term care. Republicans are quick to demonize the socialism as something akin to the scary Red notion of communism, and it's true that in a socialist democracy like Denmark, the average person is taxed at about 50%, which is uncomfortably high to our American ears, but ask yourself how much of your paycheck goes to health insurance, childcare, college savings plans and retirement accounts. Few people in the US can say that less than 50% of their paychecks don't go towards those needs already. In fact, one of my friends discovered that they actually brought home more money by having the wife stay at home with the kids, because her entire paycheck went to childcare and costs relating to her work.
In The Science of Happiness, author Stefan Klein at this phenomena and comes to some conclusions on a meta-level on what creates happiness in a society and the results might surprise you. He finds that there are three critical standards that must be met: a civic sense, social equality and control over our own lives. The more participatory the democracy, the more equal the social and income distribution among the citizens and the more self-determination (meaning not being forced to do a job you dislike because you have to pay the bills), the happier the society is.
That's not so scary, is it?
You can get the full segment and transcripts on CBS.com
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Great Dane!
60 Minutes did bring up that the Danish tax rate is 50%. :)
Hey, happiness is a relative term. I've lived outside of the U.S. in the developing world for 5 years now. It's a lot different, but people tend to find happiness in ways other that materialism. Then again, maybe that's just because being materialistic is not an option.
RHM's Blog
Except when they publish Muslim cartoons.
You are so right about socialism COMBINED with capitalism. I have lived in Holland, Sweden, Denmark, and Norway. And these societies are all based on an economic/ political system in which social fairness, the common good, is the norm and focus. This is so very different that the USA in which the norm now is personal greed, a government/ political system for and BY THE FEW. It is a country defined by SELF INTEREST AND EXCLUSION VERSUS GIVING, SHARING, AND INCLUSION. There is something totally wrong in a country in which creeps like Brian Williams, et all, can make 15 million dollars a year for 'reading' the news he is programmed to read versus the teachers of our children who average $35,000 a year.
It also bears noting though that Denmark is also 80-90% Danish and also 70% Lutheran. The culture has little diversity. The more diverse a community the less trusting folks are therefore less happy. Perhaps, that is why they are more secure in printing cartoons of Mohammed. Not too many folks there are going to raise a fuss. Its easier to come to consensus on how a community is going to be, what the standards will be, when there is a deep historical commonality to begin with.
they must not have a (p)RESIDENT bush.
I think 10% Faxe beer helps.
http://www.royalunibrew.com/Default.aspx?ID=222
Who wouldn't be happy surrounded by babes like that, who don't believe their going straight to hell for putting out.
Is this an argument against multiculturalism?
Funny timing with the riots going on right now. But I agree, I went to Copenhagen and was blown away by the Danes. Awesome place.
Denmark?
Bah. they don't even have hills, let alone mountains :(
Seriously though, yes, I am often wondering why americans cling so desperately to the taxes are bad notion, but I think a study published last year, (no link, sorry) regardign the wealth of nations might be of assistance.
Economists are able to explain roughly 75% of a country's wealth through economic theories. That is 50% from the population, education level and so forth, and 25 % from natural resources.
The remaining 25% are a matter of debate, but one of the last theories put forth is that it is related to trust within the country, and between the people and its government. Where the economist points to the scandinavian countries as basis for the assertions.
We are well aware of some bungling politicians and a bit of wasteful spending, but on the general level, we do trust our governments, and we do have easily accessible politicians, leading to far less "black" markets and fraud than is seen elsewhere, for the common good.
Seeing a lot of americans get the "Government is bad" meme in from an early age, and way to many politicians who are living after "greed is good" motto, you have a long way to go to manage that.
"Danish happiness is derived from lower expectations..."
i must be danish... heh...
though my actual pedigree is irish/german/italian...
My ancestors fled Europe for America so that they wouldn't have to be subjected to the slavery of an all-encompassing state. And now Americans want an even bigger state to rule every aspect of our plebian existence. I'll pass, thanks.
I find it odd you mention this now, as Denmark has been experiencing rioting and vandalism countrywide in the last week related to the prosecution of the man who threatened the Mohammed cartoonist. perhaps all is not so well in Danish land. I also think you might want to talk to a larger sample of Danish people and see how they really feel about paying 50% of their taxes to the government? you say it will work in this country. I disagree. I don't think anyone wants to give up that much of their income to our government, equitable or not. Government is nothing more than a much bigger, mostly badly managed corporation and private individuals can do it so much better. Let's fix the "evil" capitalist health care system we've got to make it more equitable, not scrap it for some socialist system. In addition, many countries with socialist sytems of cradle to grave care are now suffering financially and having to cut back. Sweden is one example. Since i'm most familiar with the UK's NHS system, they are always cutting back on services to save money and refuse many procedures because they are too costly. It is a fallacy that "universal health care" will mean everyone gets equal health care. it simply won't happen. when you are the one waiting a year to get a fairly basic surgery like a hip replacement (as my English husband did), because there are no surgery slots or beds in the "free" NHS hospitals, or they refuse to give you a drug that is routinely prescribed in the USA (like tamoxifen) to help extend the life of breast cancer patients because they deem it too expensive, then you will ask, why did i think this universal health care idea was so great? Why are they taxing the hell out of me when already i'm taxed the hell out of? How much more of my income can go to taxes? I think you'll see a much bigger revolt in the USA when that happpens, and the reality hits that this health care is not FREE, and that we, the American people, are paying through the nose for it, equitable or not.
Mugsy @ 2:
I have said it before and i will say it again. Provide us with Universal Health Care, top notch teachers and schools, free college education, 5 weeks of vacation a year, safe streets, community centers, art and a 50% tax rate is a bargain.
katy @ 13:
Good thing you're not German/Polish/Russian or you'd be invading yourself.
Follow me on the taxes here.
25 to 33% fed income tax
10% social security tax
1% disability tax
8% sales tax (one a majority of what you buy, even food!)
up to 5% utility tax
property tax, the list goes on. Americans easily pay 40 to 50% taxes on the income they earn and spend. All the American income tax collected is only enough to pay the interest on the national debt. 2 out of three dollars go to "defense" or war spending.
Please don't tell me 50% taxation wont work here in the states. It already is, we're just too stupid to add it up.
Danes riot about cartoons. Americans riot about police brutality, crooked justice and extreme economic inequities.
Cultural priorities are interesting, huh?
How to attain political office in the US:
Just repeat these words over and over,
"Taxes are bad, drug addicts should be locked up, illegal aliens should be detained indefinitely, the Middle East should be a parking lot, we should never stand in the way of the drug companies making a profit, anybody who criticizes the government is a traitor."
Not only are the Danes happier but they also speak English better than most Americans and ten times better than our tongue-tied White House monkey.
and it’s true that in a socialist democracy like Denmark, the average person is taxed at about 50%, which is uncomfortably high to our American ears, but ask yourself how much of your paycheck goes to health insurance, childcare, college savings plans and retirement accounts.
Approx 10-15% for my family.
So, i'm supposed to shell out another 35-40% of my paycheck to asuage some kind of liberal guilt that i'm not helping make other people "worry free"? I'm sorry, but no. Call it cold hearted, call it greedy, call it whatever you'd like. I work damn hard for what I make and I work damn hard to make sure my family doesnt have to worry about going to the doctor, our retirement, etc.... This is why there will always be that left/right divide. 1/3 of the country wants the other 2/3rds to support it. I've been to Copenhagen as well as other countries of the region, and while they are wonderul places, lets not pretend its some kind of workers paradise.
I work at a job that I detest simply so we'll have affordable health insurance (and I consider myself lucky that we even have health insurance) because my husband is self-employed.
A few days ago, my mother adamantly said, "We don't need universal health care!" When I asked why, she said we didn't need the government telling us which doctors and what kind of care we can have. I asked her if she didn't think the American insurance companies weren't already doing that, and she actually seemed to see the situation in a new light.
Sorry--double negative in my last post. It should read, "I asked her if she thought the insurance companies weren't already doing that..."
In fact, one of my friends discovered that they actually brought home more money by having the wife stay at home with the kids, because her entire paycheck went to childcare and costs relating to her work.
Hello!?!?! The idea is to keep all women out of the work force!
It's true.
I dated a woman from Copenhagen whose ex-husband would do the nastiest things to her, and she would tell me all about it with a big smile and a laugh.
strange to see such bounding buoyancy in NYC. I curse a blue streak when the subway doors don't open right away.
Don't look now, but now the Danes are being attacked by John McCain!
50% income tax is a damned BARGAIN when you look at the fact that every single dollar earned, transferred, acquired, traded, etc. by American citizens is taxed, taxed, taxed and taxed again! Add to that sales tax, property tax, state and local taxes and by the time you're done fully 97 cents of every dollar is taxed to death in the US
Gimme a straight 50% tax, provide my children with a good education, healthcare and the basic necessities of life any day.
ysbaddaden @ 17:
yea, well, the irish/german/italian is doing that well enough, thank you!
blue @ 5:
Blue, you’re exactly right!! But take it a step further A lot of Government agencies are politically loaded and don’t need to be there. One that has been a fixture for many decades is the Federal Reserve. A quasi operational system meant for the rich, there are many others. A huge ambitious ideal installed decades ago, 1913, to manipulate the market all the while to profit from tax money.
Actually even the great insurance business can be changed, but the powers that be will do every thing they can to convince Middle America it is not possible. Perhaps not as soon as Obama might like. However, Hillary could make a conversion responsibly. There is a huge money pool in the insurance industry that has been existing for the rich and well connected for decades. All likely will not want to loose this advantage.
I am all for change in the IRS system too but a very good review of the tax system should be done. To include all taxes paid by citizens and those portion allocated to the World Bank and International Monetary fund and other aid loans to foreign counties need to be assessed for the return on investment and retroactive calculations establish for interest earned to be returned to the citizenry.
Like good old Bob Dole said “its your money”. I consider myself an Eisenhower Conservative Democrat and believe that is a justified way to work government. Actually government that works for its citizen, not the military industrial complex, imagine getting interest on your share of all monetary money in taxes you give for loans. Here, we know now the rich simply take this money from you.
I thought the French are the happiest. Or is the Spanish?
mags @ 15:
Ok americans are taxed fairly highly but the problem is you get precisely zero back for that investment. I wouldn't want to give any more money to a bunch of crooks who use it to continue to murder soldiers and civilians in a foreign land or line their pockets with it either. If your tax money actually went to what it was supposed to be used for I think you'd see a big difference. If the taxes actually went to infrastructure and social programs there would be improvements across the board but as it stands shrub co. keeps cutting it away so he can spend more in his illegal war and give more of it to his war profiteering buddies. Meanwhile the local bridges continue to deteriorate and NOLA is still in ruins.
They're not even willing to spend money to restore an american city. But there's plenty of cash for the war profiteers to build shoddy permanent bases in iraq.
Jay @ 22:
It is funny that some respond like this, knowing full well where their taxes currently go. Working damn hard should be collective, not singular. Some Americans wave the flag at how great their nation is, while telling their fellow Americans to go f*&k themselves at the same time. It's funny. And while they grumble about their taxes going to pay for the military machine, in reality they vocally display they don't want to help their friends or neighbours and would rather the money went towards bombs. That's it in a nutshell. And like a previous poster explained, you already pay close to if not more of your wages in taxes, even if you don't admit it. Face it, government here is and industry. Government there is not.
We could have as high a standard of living as Europeans if we stopped spending billions on the military and wars for imperialism. We wouldn't even need to raise taxes much because we would have so much left over. I do believe Democratic Socialism is the way of the future for all nations because it makes the most sense, is most democratic, and creates the most satisfaction of all economic/political systems.
My Danish in-laws are in their early 90's and, thanks to the Danish healthcare system, which assisted them in modifying their Copenhagen flat, are able to live out their years in the comfort of their own home. This, despite my father-in-law's severe stroke that left him permanently and seriously disabled...A team of two health care workers goes to him to help him four times a day. Two nutritious meals a day are delivered to his home. Oh, yeah, and his four children all received college educations.
He paid the 50% taxes all his working life. I'd say that was a bargain.
What's not to be happy about?
L.A. Confidential @ 30:
The Khoisan.
Jay @ 22:
hey jay you're either one of the wealthy in this country that gets a tax break by grabbing it from the middle class who pay the rest of your share or you're not taking into account the other taxes you're paying. 10-15%? Tell me how you cam to those numbers.
I've seen a photo of a 14th century, Islamic made tapestry, showing Mohammed placing the black stone of Kaaba back into Mecca.
His face was unveiled and everything, unlike Michael Jackson.
ConcernedCanuck @ 32:
Your argument might hold water if it wasnt for one serious fallacy.....
Working damn hard should be collective....but it isnt because so many have a sense of entitlement that makesw them think that their fellow man and their govt should be here to support them. So some work hard, and others reap the benefits. In your perfect society, everyone would have a similar contribution, but so many are just too damn lazy.....
So again, do I need to feel guilty because I work hard and want those benefits to go to help me and mine? Not at all.....
How many minoritys in Denmark ?
Barrack will help us!
http://barackobamaisyournewbicycle.com/
An interesting interview with an Austrian economist (yes, Austrians, too, pay up to 50% of their income to taxes): http://austrianeconomists.typepad.com/weblog/2005/11/scandinavian_co.html
he points out that in a country like Sweden (or Denmark, or Finland), the populations are small and fairly homogenous. Which, of course means predominately white, protestant, well educated, not the diversity of any US City. And in this context, the socialist system seems to work. But in countries like France, with its less homogenous populations (huge number of north africans, for example), the welfare state is starting to crumble.
interesting thoughts.
but so many are just too damn lazy.
Jay, what about seniors that worked hard all their lives but have only social security and savings too meager to make it 30 years without working in the most financially needy time of their lives?
I hope you feel secure even though a majority of hardworking americans around you do not.
Great system!
PS you should answer the question about you 15% tax rate. How do you do it?
Max Rittle @ 36:
Easy. The statement Nicole made was that she assumed must of us paid 50% of our paychecks to health care, child care, college accounts for our children, and retirement accounts for ourselves. We have no kids so Child care and college accounts are out. I spend approx 10-15% on retirement accounts and ittermittent health care and the insurance that goes along with it.
On the other hand, where I live we have the highest property taxes in the state because somuch of it goes to local education. There you go. I bought a house and now I'm helping put someone else's kids though elementary school. Whee....
We have too many of the working poor now.
It's no longer the rich vs poor binomial.
They work hard and still can't get ends to meet.
It's spreading to the middle-class now.
The rich want us fighting each other over crumbs of the pie instead of demanding a new pie be baked.
curtilingus @ 42:
I do.
As for the seniors, isnt Social Security part or Roosevelts New Deal that the Democrats crow about night and day that it doesnt need fixing and works fine the way it is? Who knows, maybe if some of those Seniors could have invested some of their own money, they might have a bit more. Frankly it doesnt matter. I am not responsible financially for those who have taken or need to take responsibility for their own lives.
FYI, just so you dont have to pretend that I'm just another heartless Republican, I have spent years donating my time to such organizations as Habitat for Humanity, working as a Project Director on homes for those willing to work for them. Now that kind of charity is something guys like me can get behind. Not a handout.....a helping hand up.
Mika @ 6:
Sweden receives more refugees/immigrants than any other industrialized country (per capita), but still rates higher than most.
Jay @ 38:
People are lazy because they have been trained to be. That is a reflection of society and the "American Dream" of working hard will getcha rich. Dangle something in front of them. Something they want. Even a druggie is motivated to buy/get drugs. Sorry but I don't buy the line you are trying to sell. Are you saying the workers in these "socialist" nations don't work as hard as you do? I work 60 to 70 hours a week, every week. Is that not hard? But I still contribute to a healthcare system that heals instead of punishing the sick. I have no problem with that at all. Do some sponge off the system? Yep. But does it work? Yep.
Republicans who talk about hard work are like teenage boys who talk about sex. Those who talk about how they do it the most, well...
Jay @ 45:
Chances are, whatever industry you've "worked hard all yer life" at, receive "HANDOUTS" on a yearly basis. Is that ok with you? So, in reality, no matter how hard you claim to work, you are really getting a handout that was previously a handout.
ysbaddaden @ 44:
Exactly class warfare exists, it's always going on in stealth by the investor class on the worker class. Corporate media's job is to hide or play down this truth. And it's getting worse as you said.
Rusty Shackleford @ 48:
True enough. The ones that are so opposed to their "hard earned dollars" contributing to a better society, are the ones that really do little. The system was created by greedy men that knew if you just throw the odd little crumb to these people, they'll devour anyone that attempts to take part of it, even if they are starving.
The con is on and the average U.S. citizen has bought it hook, line and sinker. Naturally the propaganda of the so called "dream" helps make it so. But to paraphrase, most U.S. citizens "lead lives of quiet desperation". Or you could call it the work grind and it eats your soul until there is nothing left.
guys like "jay" make me sad, and embarrassed to share a country with...
so, when DID they quit teaching the Declaration of Independence and The Constitution in schools? you know, that "We the People" thing...
Jay @ 45:
Thanks for standing up for what I believe, as well! I'm currently writing this from my second home, Kathmandu, Nepal (i'm American). I run a small orphanage, which is financed almost entirely by myself. Am I rich? I didn't start out that way. I was a schoolteacher and made wise investments, then struck it "rich"in the real estate market in the early 1990's in Seattle, WA (think microsoft milionaires cashing in stock options). Now I use that money to do what I really love. Yes, most of this I do with my own money. I did start a nonprofit not long ago but have not focused too much on fundraising, as I don't want any government interference (in the USA but mainly in Nepal, where corruption is rife). I' not saying everyone needs to get rich and start an orphanage in the third world. Some of us did. I'm saying that private enterprise is the way to go. Not all of us cruel fiscal conservatives are evil! and I'm sick and tired of having people tell me I use the term "socialism" as a catch phrase. Socialism simply means state run. my ancestors left Europe to get away from the government controlling our lives! here's my website ,which is way outdated.no, i'm not trying to get donations (the email address is no longer valid, so you couldnt' contact me, even if you wanted to!). http://aasthahouse.tripod.com/ namaste (which sorts of means, hello, goodbye and to someo new agey yoga nuts, i salute the divine within you, although no nepali person has a clue it means that!), Maggie in kkkkathmandu
Sorry Nicole, you are asking the wrong 'questions'.
First define 'income'. Is is fair compensation for labor? If it isnt - and trust me it ISNT in the US - then what does a low tax rate really mean? The bulk of your income isnt taxed in the US because YOU NEVER GET IT.
Second. Untaxed income is 'disposable'. Your point on this is well made - however - after all the things you mention are paid for what is there to 'buy'? I have a slightly better question - what is there that is that is worth buying and is that important? This raises the question of consumer materialism - dont you think? Who is benefitted by consumer materialism? I'll tell you - the same person that KEPT part of your pay.
This is about more than tax rate.
This country isnt a civil society at heart.
This country isnt a revolutionary democracy at heart.
This is a country of people that have either always fallen in line or run away, lives in fear and just adores standing on someone elses neck (killing and robbing). Read the history.
(I'm sure you wont agree, but I dont say anything without a reason. I would much rather that the above werent the case)
(unedited)
ConcernedCanuck @ 47:
You dont get it...
I'm not referring to anyone in ANY other country except this one. 1/3 of American society wants to sponge off of the other 2/3rds. If that 1/3 doesnt get everything they want, then the class card comes out. They start blaming those that have more and those that have worked for more. It plays out every election cycle when some dimwitted Democratic candidate stands on a podium, and tells people that someone else is to blame for their lot in life, and that if others werent so greedy, that they could have more and are entitled to what they didnt earn. It's disgusting the way the left uses the poor in order to get elected. (Just as disgusting as how the right uses the pulpit to get elected.)
So, once again, if you cant be responsible for yourself, then damn it shut up and stop blaming everyone else becasue you didnt save enough, go to college, show up to work, had 9 kids, etc...etc..... Whatever your personal excuse may be, it's not my problem. Nicole is right about something. Alot more of my current taxes go to support those other than me. Alot more than I am currently comfortable with.....
ConcernedCanuck @ 49:
Nice try but I have no problem what so ever with business tax breaks. People l;ike you rail on and on about the eveils of big business, but it's still big business that employs so many.
This is a pointless argument. No matter what I may say, you believe in handoputs for those that didnt earn them, and to those who give back nothing in return. I'm done.
its a great post except "having the wife" stay home? you are buying into and propagating the notion of women as possessions. didnt she choose to stay home? where is her volition and personhood in your statement?
Canuck, Jay is the classic 'american' I referred to in my post above. @55
He isnt a part of a civil society - you are - he will never understand you because he has no concept of civil society.
His social darwinian tendencies puts his boot on someones neck, where he believes it belongs.
He is in a psychological fortress along with his family with the barbarians (and leeches) just outside his curtain wall - he lives in fear.
He fits my description perfectly.
The US is what it always has been and what it always will be precisely because of - well - us.
Jay @ 56:
Me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me
I, I, I, I, I
my, my, my, my, my
Typical Republican!
When I read the comments like the ones on this tread I think maybe we do need a deep and punishing depression. We need people in soup lines and horrible death and disease that comes from a collapse in the economy. People refuse to remember what things were like during 1929 republican depression. The new deal and things like social security were responses to complete and utter failures of the private sector. That doesn't stop people from believing in the same private sector. They want to dismantle more and more of the safety net. They can never seem themselves as needing the "government" so they consider taxes as theft. It is so sad that people live by the mantra "greed is good".
Jay @ 57:
Your defense of corporate greed and your "workin' so hard to git yers, and everyone else can screw off" proves to everyone on this board, you are nothing more than a Rethuglican troll. Nice try though.
A lot of US tax money goes to support evil and unjust wars. Happiness and karma are related.
"...the people of Denmark are the happiest people on Earth."
Prince Hamlet would be quite happy to hear this!
Nothing's rotten in Denmark!
Jay @ 57:
You are typically what you are afraid of Jay. You aren't mad you have to share. You want it all for yourself. Hate to tell you this, but money is just manmade, and in reality has little value. Health and welfare HAS value. Your points are moot. You talk about lazy people mooching off the system, yet it is you who is mooching off it, just in a different way.
Jay @ 43:
I've heard this before, let's call them born-again real estate agents. --stated with pure conviction---"the education of this community is the best in the county, it is rustic but not lonely, and it's within commuting distance from the metropolitan area; you get the best of all worlds!" when the "best public education" produces addicts, petty crime and other little nasties in this perfect little world, people start to wonder why their perfect place is not so perfect. i would NOT call you greedy or just wanting your fair share of your "damn hard work", this is simply myopia. you'd rather have uneducated kids become your friends, family or neighbors? within this busted education system? whee, indeed.
I saw a breakdown of the US Federal budget about a year back. Over 50% of it was spent on the military. If the USA just invaded and occupied less countries, maybe it could afford what most other countries take for granted.
Where does our money go?
Link to easy to read pie chart breakdown
great article from international herald tribume: http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/12/05/business/labor.php about how some Danes (many, in fact) view the huge tax burden their so called perfect system forces upon them. I fear we are in for a rude shock in this country when people realize the cost of making sure everyone has health care. Oh, and yes, I'm anti war, and we would save billions (trillions?) if we didn't waste our resources on preemptive wars. We can't do without a strong military, however. Speaking of charity, do you realize Americans give the most to charitable organizations than any other country? we are not forced to do that. I'm constantly amazed at the comments I get from people who learn about my work in Nepal (and are surprised that i take no donations). Kids in elementary schools, people from all walks of life who want to contribute something. We are a very giving country. I just don't believe it needs to be forced on me to give. I already pay more than my fair share of taxes, and I do believe I get a lot back for the taxes I pay. I live in a third world country now, and I lived in England for many years, as well, so trust me, I have a lot to compare it to! we live in a great country. Let's stop bashing each other and find equitable solutions to our problems that don't force us to cough up even more of our hard earned dollars to our government. I don't want any government telling me where my money should go. period.
Jay's argument seems to be that Americans can get ahead and reap the [so-called] American dream by working hard. This ignores the fact that the United States, which is supposed to be the richest and most advanced country in the world, falls behind so many countries in so many categories, such as the economy, health care, education, the environment, civil liberties, etc. To take just one example, foreign drug prices are 35%-50% less than U.S. prices. But this is just one area where America has failed its citizens. Every thinking American, and especially those who consider themselves liberals, should have in their homes the indispensable book Second-Rate Nation-From the American Dream to the American Myth by Sam D. Sieber [Paradigm Publishers 2005]. This book effectively demonstrates that America is not as superior as so many patriotic Americans seem to believe to other foreign lands.
Jay @ 57:
What's this 1/3 of the population you're talking about? Retirees?
You know what? You're right. Fuck em.
xoites defends Constitution @ 20:
And add a few more like, no need for OSHA, There is no place for unions because the corporations will look out for the worker, let the next generation pay the bills, and a Wall Mart looks better than marshland. Oh and lets borrow from china because we need more trinkets from Wall Mart, the kids will pay for that too, so we don't have to worry.
Anybody else got any ideas, I don't think xoites and I covered everything.
http://www.crooksandliars.com/2008/02/17/mccain-on-health-care-and-manda...
Erroll @ 69:
Jay's opinion will change when he loses his job, and needs some government help. Of course he'll say that will never happen, just as people in the 1920's knew a depression would never ever happen to their economy.
ConcernedCanuck @ 62:
Thanks for stating the obvious.
I suspect that if we counted State and Federal income tax, sales tax, and all the various excise taxes, etc. we pay in "hidden" form, our tax rate would also come out to at least 50%. The biggest difference is not the tax rate, it is the difference between directing those taxes to corporate welfare, boondoggles, killing machines and a standing army, and black budgts vs. spending the money on "us".
have i been banned or is there some sort of issue w/ the comments
The Truthiness Hurts @ 67:
Never happen - the military will honestly tell you that they are defending the 'american way of life' which is to say - material consumerism.
What is it? 5% of the worlds population consuming 25% of the worlds resources.
What does that mean - simple math question - if 5% of the worlds population consumes 25% of the worlds available resources, what percentage would it take to consume 100% of the worlds available resources?
The answer is 20%.
It is worth noting that of the 6 billion people on the earth, about 1 billion successfully live the 'amercian way of life' (material consumerism). The other 5 billion live in abject poverty.
Note the percentages - 16% live the 'american way' - which is obviously close to the answer to the above math problem.
Do you see why the US military is required to support the 'american way of life'? (And at the expense of 84% of the earths population)
You're totally correct that Americans don't realize how much we pay in taxes... I'll bet we pay MORE than evil Socialist countries, when you add healthcare, childcare, retirement, etc., etc. Plus sales taxes, etc... BUt the worst part is that what we pay for healthcare, is usually money thrown down the toilet... The US is so overrated... that's why i live overseas.
Deighved H Stern MD @ 74:
MIC funding IS spending money on us if by "us" you mean Halliburton, Carlisle, etc. etc.
mags @ 68:
US charity is a lie.
Norway is number one per capita. The US is far down the list. Further, US 'gifts' to other countries always have strings attatched - meaning, they are required to spend the money they receive on US products and/or services.
You are spreading an urban myth.
Here's a much better breakdown of the federal budget.
67% Military/National Security/Terr'st Chasin'
33% Non Military/Non National Security/Non Terr'st Chasin'
People always forget about the VAT taxes, Value Added Taxes, that Republicans favor. It taxes items on each step along the chain, the farmer who grows the grain, the miller who grinds it, the baker who bakes the bread, the middle-man who invests in it, the trucking company, the grocery stores. That creates a higher over-all price tag we all pay, but it's regressive to the least fortunate.
A so much happier and contented society would be expected to enjoy a significantly lower suicide rate than the rest of the industrialized world, but sadly that is not something the people of Denmark can also boast of along with having "a civic sense, social equality and control over [their] own lives."
anon @ 78:
You are spreading an urban myth.
You are woefully misinformed.
Now I'm no economist but the first question to my mind is: Given the current fiscal situation of the United States (I.E. we are the biggest debtor nation as many have said), is Denmark's system usable here in the United States? From where I sit, the answer may be no. Currently, it is said that Medicare and Medicaid alone are not sustainable here in the United States. Many economists that I have read stated that even if the Government were to tax every person in the United States 100% it would still not cover the costs. Add to this the massive military and other expenditures the Government has to finance and it makes little sense to add this on. Now don't get me wrong, it is a worthy endevour but many things would have to change for it to work.
The only way this will work is if a nation like Denmark keeps their money supply reduced and Government spending in check. This seems to be what Denmark is doing or else price inflation would be rampant there and people would not be happy. The United States does not have that luxury and even if it did it would be very painful to incorporate over the long run. Many Government agencies would have to be cut, the money supply contracted, and interest rates would be punitive. This is what Paul Volker had to do to pull us out of the rampant inflation in the 70s. To do this the other way, the United States would have to "print" or borrow massive amounts of money to compensate for the costs or impose draconian taxation upon its citizens. In either case, the populace will not be happy with the outcomes and the situation could become worse.
Just today I overheard somebody talking about his visit to Port Of Spain, a large city in Trinidad. He said it was the smelliest, ugliest most horrible city he had every seen. Yet just a short car journey over a hill, and he said it was paradise. Palm trees, beaches, perfect. The kind of place I would love to live in. But it was horribly littered, and the Trinidadians don't want to live there. They all want to live in the City, chasing wealth and material goods. My friend articulated it perfectly: They want to be America. They don't realise what they've got. They want to concrete it over, build tower blocks and highways.
Jay @ 22:
Well Jay
How much of your healthcare for you and your family is payed by your employer? lots of folks do not have that option with their employment. How about life insurance? How about continued coverage during unemployment? Of course you pay your own post retirement accounts right?
I guess you don't have any of those problems though.
mags @ 68:
Your comments are full of contradictions. You claim to be anti-war but yet you think that the U.S., already the most militant and largest nation by far, needs to maintain that status. The United States has the largest nuclear arsenal of anyone on earth and spends more on its military budget than almost all the other countries in the world combined.
You state that the U.S. is "we are a very giving nation country." The information, in the book Second-Rate Nation, does not support that contention. What people like you do not seem to either realize or acknowledge is that the U.S., the wealthiest nation in the world, has one of the largest rates of poverty of any country in the world. But poor people are thought to be invisible since the corporate media very rarely will admit that these people even exist in this country, which number approximately 35 million people. A stunning statistic is that a THIRD of all Americans have fallen below the poverty line at least once. One and a third million children are homeless in a given year. Infant mortality rate is higher in America than in 19 other countries. But according to you, the U.S. is a very giving nation. The facts, as the book Second-Rate Nation makes clear, say otherwise.
exactly why my wife stays home with the kids. Any paycheck she would have recieved would go directly to daycare. Why would she pay someone else to raise our children when she does a better job?
peaceful easy feeling @ 82:
You are woefully misinformed.
Your contention is flat out wrong. I strongly suggest that you pick up a copy of Second-Rate Nation to ascertain why anon at #78 is absolutely correct in what he said concerning U.S. charity to other countries.
#15
I won't repeat your little story because it was somewhat refreshing in its complexity it was still as someone else said it was, really a strong dollop of urban legend.
But I gotta tell you, don't worry about your husband and his hip. he seems to have put up with you, so he can work with pain.
As the US economic model is failing miserably, this thread is comedy gold.
There's more than one thing rotten in the States.
peaceful easy feeling @ 82:
You are woefully misinformed.
Depends if when you talk about charity, if its foreign aid, or domestic, or both.
Taking from my memory, the US donations to foreign aid to third world countries are below quite a few industrialized nations, (unless you count weapons, well...) but if you add in domestic charity, US would probably score far higher, then again, the domestic need is higher as well.
since maggie the fiscal conservative, has, along with jay, shared my point of view, an email i just got from my canadian/norwegian friend who lives in Bergen (who kindly agreed to let me share it here). I'm open to all points of view, even if I respectfully disagree. by the way, i live, as i said previously, in Kathmandu (where its almost 10pm right now). I know what a wonderful country America. I live in one of the most impoverished ones, which is not at all a shangri la. Even the "poor" in the USA live better than many middle class in Europe! I have seen this for myself. and to talk about "poor" when i live in a country where people often can't afford the $16 annual school fees for their child? (no, even govt. education in nepal is not "free"). I wish for once some of us would stand up and say some of the wonderful things about life in America. Perhaps it takes those of us who have lived for years in countries like England (yes, england, with its failing NHS) and Nepal who come back to the USA and tell all you americans how good we really have it.ok, the letter from my friend from Norway, aka "B"!
"Can I take this fiscally conservative thing at its own time. there are a lot of labels flying around. What you call private enterprise at the helm is also called Liberalism, that roughly implies - lots of freedom for whatever, and few constrictions. Of course, liberal has been turned around to mean - non-toughie, someone who is too accepting? Odd this one. But as i see it, if you think democracy is a viable system, you welcome laws and restraints where the major good takes precedence over the individual whim/desire. It would logically follow that democracies have the greatest degree of law enforcement -- of course the clincher is equality in the face of the law. The great free enterprise states seem to advocate economic and intellecual anarchy - the freedom to for example do what ever you can get away with. That big government is wasteful or corrupt is another issue - does it feed people and deliver the goods. A illuminating example is the lifting of trade barriers in the name of free enterprise/trade; suddenly, nations aren't allowed to defend their best interests. In marches Coca Cola with a concoction that they don't even reveal the ingredients. This should be illegal in a country that wants to protect the health of its citizens.
Socialism or social democray, introduces strong elements of social conscience tied to the belief that all poeple have the same basic needs and therefore rights. As a democrat, it might be humiliating but we abide by the rules, respect bureaucracy, and trust that our neighbour doesn't want to bully us around. Yes, it's naive. But ideology works that way, one beliefves in principles that are bigger than ones own 'selfish' interpretations of what is right. The great example in Indian is Kerela, apparently the one state with some broad structural effects based upon clear policies - that woman can be bus drivers, that there is very high literacy fr both sexes, that agrarian land is more equitably distributed than other places in Indian seems to have root that the state government for 30-40 years has been 'communist'. (Of course this must mean Kerelian Communist which may relate to yugoslav or cuban communism in that it is its own evolution out of some real politic based uponlocal conditions but based upon some underlying ideological assumptions.
Happiness is a pretty subjective commodity, the social democratic societies that coddle the citizens by bribing them into submissive behavior, survive by delivering the Goods, people find contentment. That one can argue with this is legit -- they may NOT be really happy, they are in fact just pleasantly stoned on beer and TV. But the Danes are reknowned for a generous laid-backness -( Kobenhaven might be more fun than Stockholm, i don't know either.) earthy and just your style. Before I left canada, Jane Jacobs, a noted NY urbanoligist who fled to Toronto in the late sixties; predicted that I 'd be much happier among the Danes than among the more staid straightlaced western norwegians, unfortunaely she was right.
The high cost of a beer in Bergen reflects high taxes and high levels of healthcare for everyone. It also reflects that the student slinging pints is getting a legitimate salary, not to mention the dishwasher; there is no army of illegal sub-minimum wage latinos behind every corner carrying the can. If the income taxes are 32% (not 50, and the more you make the more the loopholes), plus 20% sales tax on most things except food, the wages compensate - absolute minimum wage is over 16$ an hour
Enough already; fiscal conservatives also balance the budget. Something that looks a long time coming under the current balance of payments figures. But to do so one would have to look at raising taxes - either from the bottom up or by going after all those who exploit the system and rake in mega-bucks.
I'm off for a stroll in the fog.
B
Is bombing a country back to the stone age counted as charity?
The Truthiness Hurts @ 79:
"Terr'st Chasin'"
The republican boogey man hoax, after all Bush is not that concerned with OBL. That huge a chunk of money is for the MIC, the US is an extremely corrupt society. People are sooo clueless.
peaceful easy feeling @ 82:
You are woefully misinformed.
I am not.
Most numbers that show the US as most charitable have several flaws.
1) They generally include money to churches. (Churches have been well funded from the start and have NEVER solved the social shortfalls in the US)
2) They are based on GDP not per capita (which is what I specified)
3) US donations overseas require the funds be used to purchase products and services from the US - that is, they are an investment stimulous.
Here are several links
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/eco_eco_aid_don_percap-economic-aid-do...
http://mediamatters.org/items/200501040003
As a note, consider Tsunami relief ...
Private donations made to the tsunami appeal in the first 15 days. In £ per head of population.
Norway £7.06
Sweden £6.44
Netherlands £4.90
Australia £2.80
Germany £2.77
Saudi Arabia £2.14
Canada £1.99
Austria £1.67
Britain £1.65
Greece £1.11
United States 58p
France 43p
... The US (citizens) didnt deliver on the monies pledged as well.
We americans just love telling people that we are oh so generous. Jay thinks we are even if he is selfish to a fault.
The Truthiness Hurts @ 93:
Yes, as long as you refer to it as "spreading democracy".
Blue Lensman @ 96:
The ancient athenians (10% of which could vote) would invade small groups, hire mercenaries to garrison their new territory and export all the 'loot' back to athens to be given to voting 'citizens'. This became known as 'exporting democracy'. (Referring to exporting the loot)
Ironic isnt it.
Jay @ 43:
I just love that attitude. We chose not to have kids so why should our taxes go to pay for elementary education/high school education for someone else's. Gee, I don't know, because you live in a society and it is in society's best interest for people to be educated? Why pay for fire protection or emergency medical services, I mean, you don't plan on having your house set on fire or having a heart attack, do you?
This is why universal health insurance will never get anywhere in the US. Everyone is too damn selfish. I got mine, I don't care how you get yours. Why should I help pay for your healthcare? Meanwhile, you are paying for it in increased insuranc rates, longer waits in Emeregency Rooms because people are using them as their primary care doctors, ER's going out of business, etc. etc.
Sorry to blast at you, Jay, it's not personal.
Erroll @ 88:
Perhaps it's true for in a comparison limited to government spending on foreign aid, however the USA shines as the most generous nation once voluntary charitable gifts toward humanitarian projects from her citizenry are factored in.
By the way, thanks for the tip on "Second-Rate Nation." I'll be picking up a used copy of that on Amazon. Learning from each other is one of the beauties of the blogosphere, that is when those of us without some obsessive agenda can poke our heads up above the sea of hyper-partisan divisiveness we're swimming in.
My Danish story: Years ago, I worked for a machinist from Denmark (he remains the only Dane I've ever met). His teenage son told me a heartwarming story that ended with him stating matter of factly, "He's Danish". Years before, his mother and siblings had returned home one afternoon to find a golden labrador puppy that Dad had just bought frolicking in the backyard. Needless to say, they were overjoyed. That is, until they inquired after the whereabouts of their other dog. Turns out the sick bastard had cleared the decks for the new dog by taking Dog #1 down to the shores of San Francisco Bay and shooting him.
Even the “poor” in the USA live better than many middle class in Europe! I have seen this for myself.
This has to be the most ridiculous thing I've ever read.
Lupin @ 101:
I have personally tried to help the homeless, some of whom are now dead from exposure.
And how do you defend nearly 50 million in the US without healthcare while no one in Europe is without healthcare? Just what do you mean by 'living better'?
Sure .. WE spend TRILLIONS OF DOLLARS ON DEFENSE so these cheese-eating surrender monkeys can live happy lives ..
RIGHT?
We could have happy lives too, if we weren't DEFENDING THE PLANET FROM COMMUNISTS, DRUGS, TERRORISTS AND SOCIALIZED MEDICINE ..
/end snark/
The republicans love to throw out the "socialism" word, yet the path they seem to have embraced is the "fascism" word. Which one is worse? Their common goal seems to be absolute control.
My Danish story
It was peach.
The problem with our country is that we have equated happiness with money. We've put a price tag on the basic necessities of life. And then we have selfish people like Jay.
I am reminded of that scene in Sicko where Moore asks the Canadian golfer why should his taxes pay for someone elses healthcare. His response was that it was the right thing to do. Jay and the rest have forgotten this basic principle of a healthy society. because living isn't just about you. If the whole crumbles you crumble with it.
You're preaching to the choir with these stories.
When you say "republicans", what you actually mean is corporations.
Our USA culture is dominated, operated, and owned by corporate mentalities, who do not have an ounce of care or concern for the least among us, no matter what they profess in their corporate propaganda, most notably their web sites.
If you want more of what we've got, keep making those corporations successful and keep investing in their stock. Gotta keep the enemy well-nourished because we imagine that we can't live without them (which is the biggest practical joke ever on Americans).
For an illuminating look at the differences in the EU and the US, take a look at this book by T.R. Reid, The United States of Europe:
www.amazon.com/United-States-Europe-Superpower-Supremacy/dp/1594200335
In other somewhat unrelated news, Bob Lutz of GM recently called global warming a "hoax" and hybrid cars "irrelevant." Small wonder that Euro and Japanese car makers are going to kick Detroit's ass up to their elbows.
The BBC had a report on this recently, accompanied by a poll which said that 75% of Danes would happily pay more taxes. It is a myth to say they feel too highly taxed- they are used to it and the benefits it brings. As for a large opressive state- Denmark has constantly stood firm in maintaining free speech, even when it is uncomfortable, something i as a liberal admire.
Denmark is only really a good place if you are Danish. As others have said, it is a very closed (abeit very happy!) society.
Jay @ 56:
ya, alot of your taxes go to support corporations and corporate farmers in the form of tax breaks
boy, you are such a tool
Only in America can a
MANDATE TO BUY HEALTH INSURANCE
be confused with
UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE
we're no longer "citizens" who have rights ..
we are "consumers" who have purchasing options ..
that's "FREEDOM IN AMERICA"
why are danes the happiest people on earth?
have you guys seen danish women? wawaweewa
I notice a lot of posters talk of the lack of minorities in Denmark. What does this have to do with anything? Are they insinuating that Denmark is a closed society? I would venture to guess that anyone who lives and works there would contribute equally regardless of their background. To suggest otherwise seems very rightwing/xenophobe to me.
yesterdays mags: "Socialized simply means state run”,
today's mags: Socialism simply means state run
uncle joe mccarthy @ 113:
Must explain why Americans are so unhappy. Seen the hippos wandering the big box shopping mall with ice cream cone in hand.
bmw 528 @ 109:
Lutz said global warming was a "crock of shit." And Detroit wonders why the public is looking at alternatives to what the Republican automotive execs in Detroit have to offer. Republicans should use the ostrich as their symbol. Their heads are always buried in the sand.
Gotugye @ 116:
well, they definitely eat better and healthier
Jay @ 22:
Add up all your taxes there Jay. You're undoubtedly paying way more than 10-15%. But regardless, what do you have to show for your taxes paid? What is your return on investment? That ROI looks to be much better in Denmark.
Here's the thing Jay. Do you realize that 35-40% of your Federal income taxes goes to the WAR MACHINE and interest on the WAR MACHINE? Are you ok with that? Wouldn't it be nice if 40% of your Fed taxes went to doing good things in this country?
What do you think Jay?
I guess I may worry more about being able to live the way I do now, when I'm retired.
Perhaps, the danish have a better retirement package?
Kimberly @ 114:
Some of these people are suggesting that the lack of non-white minorities contributes to Denmark's social net working efficiently - and that a similar system could never work in the United States because the non-white minorities would be a burden on it.
Kimberly @ 114:
It's not xenophobic to discuss the facts. 80% of the population is the same nationality and 70% of the population is the same religion. The reality is that there is not a lot of diversity in the population, therefore, one could argue, it is easier to reach agreements and make decisions on what is best for the society.
Gotugye @ 116:
Yeah, nothing like throwing in a little fat hatred here. How "progressive" of us.
Gotugye @ 116:
There was a story a week or so back on the MSM morning news on how it's somehow men's fault that women get so fat after marriage.
uncle joe mccarthy @ 118:
And so do a lot of "fat" people. But convenient stereotypes are just so much more fun!
Sarah @ 121:
Maybe I haven't read each post carefully. I sure didn't see any mention of non-white. I saw mention of non-dane. Could you please refer me to the post you speak of?
peaceful easy feeling @ 99:
I am glad that you are able to view this in what appears to be an objective manner. I am not one given to hyperbole but Sieber's book is backed up by a plethora of information and statistics to back up his claims, which runs to 60 pages of end notes. As I mentioned earlier, Second -Rate Nation covers ground relating to the military, the environment, crime, poverty in America, protection of civil liberties [or lack thereof], etc. A truly illuminating read. You perhaps may want to also think about purchasing another book that covers similar ground as Sieber's book, which is entitled Land of Hypocrisy by Kennie Anderson. His book is not quite as comprehensible as Sam Sieber's but it does focus upon the many acts of aggression that the U.S. has committed against third world countries. There are some book stores that do not carry it because they are offended at seeing an upside American flag on its cover but I was able to obtain my copy at Barnes and Noble. The book can also be purchased at the Land of Hypocrisy web site.
Max Rittle @ 107:
I prefer if the cookie crumbles, so do the crumbs, you crumb.
Fanon @ 122:
There is plenty of diversity in Great Britain and France yet they are able to come up with a more equitable social compact that, although far from perfect, makes the U.S. look like a Dickensian nightmare.
yup keeping up with the Joneses is a viscious cycle that the almighty television taught Americans. More is a pack-rak disease of the unhappy.
Unexperienced parents think that a crying baby will stop crying when showered with many and new toys. Therefore a baby who respond to toys are perceived to be a happy baby. The new parent has not learned that toys may just be a distraction to a real problem. An infant cry for a reason. It is a natural instinct to communicate to its parent that it is frustrated. A crying baby is either wet, hungry, cold, or hot, intimidated and annoyed by loud or sudden noise or need the touch and attention of it's parent.
This nuturing and attention is LOVE. That is more important than stuffs. Stuff does not bring happiness. It is the spirit of love attached to the "stuff" that reminds a person of a happiness but on it's own is not happiness.
Sarah @ 123:
Just relating observations European friends have made while traveling in the States.
Sarah @ 125:
holy christ....a little sensitive this morning...arent we?
many americans are obese....obesity is not healthy
and i never met an obese person who ate healthy
unless you consider micky d's the healthiest food on the planet
If we had health care and college covered by the government I would be glad to pay 50% taxes. Hell, that's only about 10-15% more than what we pay anyway with our combined taxes. America needs to wake up and smarten up. The dumbing down has got to stop.
These Danes look like they ought to be hanging around that round table in Eric Foreman's basement.
We spent a week with Danish friends in the south of France this past summer and did a lot of talking about politics and ideals since we had an agreement to ban all computers, TV, cell phones, radio and newspapers for the duration. They are very happy paying 50% taxes. The wife works and has excellent daycare for their young son. They don't have the retirement worries we have (such as wondering if I'll have that insurance plan that has been 'guaranteed' to me and I've worked all my career for). They, like us, cannot understand what drives people to run up personal debt in the US so the average credit card balance is above $5,000.00. What makes them happy is friends, family, a good meal, great wine and conversation.
The biggest kick for us, though, was to see their reaction when we spent the day in Monaco. The only way they could describe their feelings about looking at the conspicuous display of ridiculous wealth was "like looking at pornography". We spent the afternoon on the terrace of a cafe, watching the American tourists drool with envy at all of the "pornography".
Gotuguy@129
I don't know if you want to be using France as an example right now. Didn't they just go through series of class riots because of their unemployment rate?
Pay a college student to go to school, and you'll still be waiting for them to graduate 10 years later.
Gretchen @ 135:
I think you've said it best, using a real-life analogy.
I've always felt that this was what other cultures were thinking, and in all honesty, it simply embarrasses me to the core.
I *know* that these other cultures have it right, and US Americans are hopelessly caught up in a perverted, twisted alternate picture of the universe.
So If I don't have kids I'm still suppose to pay for other people kids healthcare, baby sitting and college, that would make me so happy!! YEA!!!
I hate to spoil the party John, this news about happiness in Denmark is old news in Europe. Iceland and Switzerland also rank high along Denmark in the European Happiness index, with Italy being at the bottom. Strangely enough, in these happy countries the incident of suicide is very high, especially among the young. The lack of sunshine perhaps?
ah, that's where I live.
What I don't get is this, in my view life is just too short for lots of things, like:
ironing, filling in tax stuff, worrying about getting ill, worrying about pensions, worrying about mortgage, kids daycare, having a job you don't love doing, worrying about what other people earn, riding a bike on bad roads.
In Denmark, all of that stuff is minimized! How that equates to low expectations is a mystery to me, surely, with all of that out of the way you can do the maximum amount of "living".
just my 2 DKK
Gretchen @ 135:
omg....you mean that even after paying 50 percent in taxes they still have money left over for vacations to france??
unbelievable
cuz i cant even afford a vacation to disneyland
Fanon @ 136:
I'll stack up France to the U.S. any day. As I indicated their social contract is far from perfect and although their society has real problems, the general quality of life is far better than the U.S.. According to the World Health Organization their medical system is ranked number one in the world, the U.S. 37th. The sight of 300 million Americans jumping up and down shouting we're number 37 doesn't seem to carry much cache. By the way have you forgotten that it hasn't been that long since American cities were burning from coast to coast.
chris @ 139:
thats right
cuz an educated and healthy society is a productive society
and those kids will be paying into a system that takes care of you when you are too old and infirm to care for yourself
but thats ok...just sign on the dotted line where we dont have to give a shit about you either
ill be the first over to your home to drag you mangy old body out and dump you in the nearest ditch
uncle joe mccarthy @ 142:
All Europeans are far more well traveled than the average American. Most speak more than one language, many 3. As far as a vacation to Disneyland, it's nothing more than a movie set of what is considered an idealized town. It's popular because Americans have a real nostalgia for what is a real community, not the overzoned, isolated, segregated abomination Amercans call a city. If you want a real vacation go to a real place and see how well those in Europe live compared to the debased and alienating existence Americans are forced to endure.
uncle joe @ 144
Excellent.
Fanon @ 146:
Ditto.
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