Florida takes two steps forward, one step back
By Steve Benen Friday Feb 22, 2008 8:15am
(blogs.sun) The good news is, Florida, for the first time in its history, will feature the word “evolution” in its state science standards. The bad news is, the reality-based community in the state had to make a compromise in order to get the word in there.
Florida’s State Board of Education has voted to use the term “scientific theory of evolution” in new science standards, the first time the word “evolution” has been included.
Florida’s current standards require the teaching of evolution using code words like “change over time.”
Adding the term “scientific theory” before the term “evolution” was a modified proposal at least one board member called a compromise, not standards proposed originally to the committee. The option to include “scientific theory” was made late last week.
The board narrowly passed the proposed change, voting 4-3, after more than an hour of public comment and additional discussion by the board.
Religious fundamentalists, not surprisingly, wanted to keep the “e” word out altogether, but were willing to accept the compromise, because it emphasized the word “theory.”
It reminds me of one of my biggest creationist pet peeves: they have no idea what a scientific “theory” is.
Given how much they use the word, one would like to think they could have looked it up by now.
This is going back a ways, but James Q. Wilson had a good piece on the subject a few years ago.
People use “theory” when they mean a guess, a faith or an idea. A theory in this sense does not state a testable relationship between two or more things. It is a belief that may be true, but its truth cannot be tested by scientific inquiry. One such theory is that God exists and intervenes in human life in ways that affect the outcome of human life. God may well exist, and He may well help people overcome problems or even (if we believe certain athletes) determine the outcome of a game. But that theory cannot be tested. There is no way anyone has found that we can prove empirically that God exists or that His action has affected some human life. If such a test could be found, the scientist who executed it would overnight become a hero.
Evolution is a theory in the scientific sense. It has been tested repeatedly by examining the remains of now-extinct creatures to see how one species has emerged to replace another. Even today we can see some kinds of evolution at work, as when scholars watch how birds on the Galapagos Islands adapt their beak size from generation to generation to the food supplies they encounter.
Watch any conflict over evolution and, within minutes, you’ll hear a creationist insist that students should be exposed to competing “theories” and that the “theory of evolution” is no better than any other “theory.” The idea is to suggest that if the science were absolutely true, it’d be called the “fact of evolution.”
It’s maddening, and yet, the reality-based crowd has to keep dealing with it. The National Academy of Sciences, one of the world’s most respected institutions of scientific and engineering research, took this on a few years ago.
Scientists most often use the word “fact” to describe an observation. But scientists can also use fact to mean something that has been tested or observed so many times that there is no longer a compelling reason to keep testing or looking for examples. The occurrence of evolution in this sense is a fact. Scientists no longer question whether descent with modification occurred because the evidence supporting the idea is so strong.
Gravity is a theory; just like electromagnetism, plate tectonics, and general relativity. For Florida to go out of its way to label the bedrock of modern biology as the “scientific theory of evolution” is actually quite accurate. But for creationists to consider the phrase a compromise that helps their side is nothing short of amusing.
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Evolution is just a theory and "God exists" is just a piss poor conjecture.
Right, "Theory of Evolution"; just like the "Atomic Theory of Matter" or the "Theory of a Heliocentric Solar System."
EVOLUTION IN FLORIDA: THANK GOD IT’S ONLY A THEORY.
In approving new science standards, the state education board in Florida
has for the first time ever used the word "evolution." That’s a huge step
forward. At the last minute, Southern Baptists on the board insisted
that "evolution" be changed to "the scientific theory of evolution."
That’s even better. Evolution is, after all, "only a theory," as is all
of science. Florida teachers can now cite state standards as
justification for teaching that science, unlike religion, is open to
change as better information becomes available. - Robert L. Park
the compromise is ok because by definition evolution is indeed a scientific theory, like gravity and relativity
Well, at least those students who go on to study science in a higher institution of learning will discover that a "scientific theory" is pretty damned bedrock.
"Theory" derives from "theorem" and is "conclusionary" based on evidence:
1. An idea that has been demonstrated as true or is assumed to be so demonstrable.
2. Mathematics A proposition that has been or is to be proved on the basis of explicit assumptions.
They'll learn that science does not utilize the popular meaning of "theory" as conjecture, supposition, or speculation.
However, the religious righty-tighties here in sunny America's Strapon have started to grumble in outrage. Why? They found out - after the fact - that they've been duped.
By putting the "compromise" language of the "scientific theory of" into the standards, the School Board opens the door for teachers to explain just what is MEANT by 'science,' and the true definition of 'theory.' Which is just what the fundies don't want.
I love it when the pig-ignorant think they win, only to find out that the Smart People have outfoxed them.
As a resident of Palm Beach Co, I was surprised to learn that FL textbooks did not refer to evolution by name, instead calling it "change over time".
Far too much weight is given to the religiconn Neanderthals (still waiting for them to evolve) living from Orlando northward in creating policy for the whole state. Time has come to split Florida into two states, say at the Okeechobee/Indian River Co line.
Congrats FL on evolving from the 19th to the 20th century. Too bad it's the 21st...
This is progress but the whole thing scares the hell out of me.
Creationists believe that the earth is 6,000 years old...but 6,000 years ago the Babylonians were already making beer.
If you want to be religious...go for it. But keep it out of politics and stop crossing the line.
RHM's blog
Yes, evolution is indeed a scientific theory -- as is the heliocentric solar system, the oxidative theory of combustion, and the First Law of Thermodynamics. Alas, the creationists are trained to think backwards, from conclusion to reasoning. They don't know how to use logic, and seize on whatever is at hand that might enable them to continue to hold to their pre-ordained false beliefs -- in this case, the misuse of the word theory.
It is extremely frustrating because you can't argue with them. It just doesn't matter that their beliefs are absurd and their arguments make no sense. They have concrete for brains.
its time to send billy grahams dieing ass to florida and stomp out this nonsense about evolution , and get the flat earthers back in charge!!!!!!!!!!!!
I believe the problem with the word "theory" goes back to Sherlock Holmes-"Yes, Watson, I have a theory"-actually, it was more of a hypothesis, an untested conjecture that might explain a certain set of facts. Once the case was solved, and we knew the solution, that was a theory.
Florida is proof that evolution is just a theory, but that devolution is a fact.
I don't understand why people can't believe in God AND evolution?
The wisdom of the great state of Florida is mind boggling. Its no wonder Americans are getting their brains beaten out by the rest of the world. My girl works in stem cell research, and of the 15 researcher's, only one (my girl) is from the good old USofA. It's sad to think we have kids growing up in this country, who think the sun orbits around the earth, and man came from adam & eve 2000 years ago.
[Deleted. Off topic-Sitemonitor]
If you want to see the end result of what happens when religious dogma triumphs over science and reason, look no further than Afghanistan, especially during those times when religious extremists rule.
Well, here's an idea: before you teach them the Scientific Theory of Evolution, spend some time teaching the kids the actual meanings of the words "theory" and "hypothesis" within the domain of science so they know just what they're actually being taught.
I've HAD IT with these fucking inbred retards. FINE, they don't want to believe in science and keep they're children stupid then I propose that we take away they're cars, electricity, fridge, stove, oven and force these stupid cocksuckers to live in log cabins and raise animals and crops.
Is it just me or is the religious right completely and utterly hypocritical on every goddamm issue they fucking annoy us with? I bet there are even stupid fucksticks out there on message boards, ON THE INTERNET, going on about how science is bullshit.
If it wasn't for SCIENCE these dumb cunts wouldn't have a fucking clue who Jesus is, do you know why? Because THERE WOULD BE NO PRINTING PRESSES FOR BIBLE......for FUCK SAKES!!!
fastfeat @ 7:
The 21st century is just theory. (Even though we are experiencing it now as we speak.) You gotta believe. (or is belief just a theory?)
there is a commercial on tv where people in a town wake up, its dark outside, they jump out of bed and grab some large flat "shield'esque" kind of thing in their house on their way to the front door.... and all begin running to a hill...you see many people in the town join the fray... running up the hell... and they all reach the crest of the hill as light burst forth and they hold up their shield and brace behind it... bracing harder and harder.. the more the light pushes... the harder they push back... then the light breaks through...the people are pushed back and the inevitable happens.... they hang their heads and turn to head back home and the caption reads..... YOU CANT STOP MONDAY FROM HAPPENING.
that is a perfect metaphor for what is happening with the state of florida and kansas and a couple of others. the last hardest push of a dying theology against the light.
im sorry to say that my state. florida, is part of the final hurrah of a sort of group of those people on that hill in the dark...before the dawn...... trying to hold back enlightenment. superstitious, fear driven "monkeys with car keys", who cringe in fear of an angry vengeful deity. a deity that was invented by people who thought it wanted them to cut goats throats and burn them as sacrifice to appeas it. people who thought the stars in the sky were holes in heaven.....
ive always sought to pose a single question that would break the hypnotic worship/fear of burning forever, psychosis of deity worship. a question that would make them welcome the light of rationalism and realism....help them be ready to give up the fantasy deity.
why would an all knowing, all loving, all seeing deity NEED to create tiny flawed beings TO WORSHIP IT in the first place?... and then, when the flawed beings, made so by the creator, succumb to the temptations of this existence, or if they fail to worship the deity in exactly the way some FAT HICK PREACHER WITH A BAD HAIRDO says they should, or some child molesting PRIESTOPHILE says they should, then that deity would BURN AND TORTURE IT'S BELOVED CREATIONS FOREVER? ESSENTIALLY PUNISHING THEM FOR IT'S MISTAKE OF NOT MAKING US PERFECT IN THE FIRST PLACE???
that is no deity that deserves worship. that is a psychotic. manipulative, control freak, stalkerish, sadistic deity. WE PUT HUMANS IN JAIL FOR ACTING LIKE THAT. i want no part of it or the monkeys cringing at its feet.
WELCOME THE LIGHT.
Spend a little time in Florida (we winter here- not MY idea) and you'll understand why "evolution" hasn't appeared. There is NO EVOLVING here...devolving maybe! I must have been living in a bubble (course we are teachers and believe in LEARNING) but the prejudice and dislike of those not just like you is awful here...and, sadly, many are not natives to Florida! I worry for the Obamas...
I love informing fundies that gravity is also the theory... blows their wee minds. It's great to watch them stammer and stutter as they clearly illustrate their absolute ignorance.
So many Christian Fundamentalists, so few lions...
So if I punch a religious fundie in the teeth and they say I assaulted them, I can say "no, you have a theory that I assaulted you".
Jimminny crickets don't go on and on and tell the knuckle dragging mythology freaks what "theory" means! Let them keep smiling and think they have won a great victory. Your going to ruin the joke.
Gary @ 13:
Because these fools want to believe that every word in the bible should be taken literally.
gempei @ 16:
Just a glance at the Whitehouse should be sufficient!
Creationists use many of the same rhetorical techniques that Republican authoritarians use: misinformation, obfuscation, emotional manipulation, implied associations ("You know, Hitler got the idea of the Final Solution from Darwinism!") and the rest of those tricks that work in elections and PR campaigns -- especially amongst the less educated and more religious. It explains their persistence as well as their popularity.
For example, it doesn't matter how many times they've been corrected, even by Gould himself, over the past couple of *decades* -- many of the "top" creationist mouthpieces continue to use out-of-context quotes from Stephen Jay Gould to suggest internal dissent in the scientific community as to the validity of the basic theory of evolution by natural selection... dissent that does not exist.
Hell, just take their willingness to play with the double meaning of the word "theory" for political effect. That's all you need to know about these people.
They are ruthless in the pursuit of what they truly believe to be a divine mission. They will bear false witness until their tongues fall out, because they believe that the only possible explanation for rejecting creationism is a satan-inspired hatred of their god. And that kind of self-delusion can't, unfortunately, be undone with good books about science. (These people only read one book -- and they don't really read that one, either.)
Fair Witness @ 21:
I grok
It must be nice to have all the questions of the universe answered for you in one book.
I guess ignorance truly is bliss.
Evolution isn't a theory. It's a fact. The fossil record unambiguously shows life forms early in the history of the Earth as simple, and later in history as more complex. Ergo, life evolved from simple forms into more complex ones. It's as factual as the "theory" that gravity causes objects to fall to Earth. End of discussion.
Whether evolution occurred through natural selection or some other means is the "theoretical" aspect of what is erroneously called the Theory of Evolution but should really be called the Theory of Evolution by Natural Selection.
Since the religious right seems to have trouble differentiating between fact and opinion, perhaps it is unreasonable to expect them to understand the difference between scientific theory and "Hey, I've got a theory about why the Easter Bunny lays eggs." Instead of fighting endless battles over the meaning of "theory", why don't we just call it the Ontology of Evolution and be done with it.
it's wonderful seeing that the florida creationists get to be hoisted by their own petard. when they insisted that the law include the phrase that evolution be taught as a "scientific theory" they unknowingly opened the door to their little snowflakes being taught the real meaning of what "theory" means to a scientist as opposed to its more general usage. that is: The word theory, in the context of science, does not imply uncertainty. It means "a coherent group of general propositions used as principles of explanation for a class of phenomena" (Barnhart 1948).
GonzoD @ 28:
What universe? Don't you know that all those points of light are just holes in the sky.
Facts are meaningless. Facts change. Accumulation/ evaluation of fact, provable over and over, constructs the "theory".
Scientific Theory trumps fact every day... all day.
A scientific theory is a good thing, not a bad or stupid thing.
It is 1) a prediction as to natural phenomena, 2) that has been borne out by experiment (or observation).
A scientific theory is different from a scientific law. A scientific theory is open to tweaking, based on new observations, new reasoning, or new experimental outcome. Quantum theory is such a beast. A scientific theory, in other words, is a work in progress. Nothing at all wrong with that.
A scientific law, on the other hand, is deemed by those in the know to be a settled, complete statement, true everywhere in the universe (according to Einstein). Example: The Second Law of Thermodynamics, which basically posits there's no such thing as a free lunch.
What FL did is OK. The fundies don't get it, but thoughtful people should.
Sherman should have rendered the entire South in a permanent state of disrepair. That area is dragging the rest of us through the muck.
RHM @ 8:
Man, I always loved the Babylonians---now I understand why. My buddy and I will hoist a lager at lunch in honor of the Babs!
How does that joke go? I think it's:
Jews don't recognize jeezus as the messiah
Protestants don't recognize the pope as head of the church, and
Baptists don't recognize each other in the liquor store.
Very interesting. i was educated in north Florida public schools in the 40's and early 50's. I recall becoming familiar with evolution in about the 8th grade. Our science teachers were excellent, and the theory of evolution is one of the most fascinating discoveries and ideas of all time to a curious mind. The truth of evolution is obvious to anyone who takes an unbiased view of it. My southern baptist parents, who believed in both god and education, trusted the teachers to provide us with the latest knowledge and understanding. While they may have had problems believing in evolution themselves they did not stand in the way of their children's pursuit of knowledge. The relationship between religion and science was somehow kept separate. But as with all relationships sooner or later there is a power struggle. This action will prove valuable, because once students are exposed to the truths of evolution they will use their own curious minds to sort out the conflicts with religion. Yes, it will cause some angst, but knowing the truth is much better than living in ignorance.
John Kiel @ 36:
Heheheheee...what's the difference between a catholic and a baptist?
A catholic will wave at ya in the liquor store...
What's the difference between jesus and a picture of jesus?
Only takes one nail to hang a picture...
ok one more...
What's the difference between acne and a catholic priest?
Acne usually doesn't come on a boys face until after he's turned 14....HA!
Take THAT churchies!
And here's a great site (there are many others as well, but none as comprehensive) in case you want to learn about evolution and fighting Creationist nonsense:
TalkOrigins
Re: Evolution as theory
Know Religion, No Reason
No Religion, Know Reason
Here in Titusville Fl. we view "The Flintstones " as a documentary
Fair Witness @ 21:
Dead on!!
Adam @ 24:
Charles Wilton @ 3:
Sweet Zombai Jayzus! These nuts are just that, nuts. Evolution's a theory. Gravity's a theory. The cells that make up our bodies and bacteria and all that rot, are just that, a theory. The water, nitrogen, phosphorous cycles, are just that, theories to explain the using up and renewal of those resources. The formation of clouds is a theory. These people are stupid. Neanderthals they aren't. Neanderthals were smart bipedal apes. ;)
And, Adam, though I am a Christian, you should have said, "People believe in God and accept evolution. Science is the way things are. Religion, a half-assed attempt to explain why things are."
The key word is "scientific". The fundies are relying on the number of syllables to be a complete turnoff to their cro-magnon base.
I wonder if hard core Christian parents whose 15 year old girl attends a church school would believe their daughter's pregnancy was the result of immaculate conception if she told them she never had sex? I'd be willing to bet they would subject the girl to medical examination and DNA testing of the boys in her school to determine who the father was. Of course in Florida they would also have to test the male teachers and the pastor of the church.
VietVet8666 @ 34:
nicely put.
.
Florida’s State Board of Education - third from the left.
At best.
.
Saint Augustine @ 45:
they might start with her male fambly members
liberalNmoderation @ 38:
Actually, as a Baptist, my favorite Christian joke is about a Marxist that went to the Afterlife. God didn't want him, so he sent him to Hell. The Marxist in a year is returned by Satan, saying "Get him outta here! Bastard's turned every child in Hell into a Revolutionary." So God takes him. A year later, Satan asks God for him back. God says, "First, there is no God, and second, don't make me late for the Party meeting." Well, it's a Russian joke, but still.
Instead of at a computer, why don't we end that cartoon with someone praying? Seems a helluva lot more suitable.
Adam @ 25:
But as opposed to true believers, the chimpident pretty much hates everyone on an economic level below his billionaire base. And his religion is false. And he's a LIAR. AND .... nevermind, he's just like them. ;<[)
February 19 was a sad day for the children of Florida who attend Public School, including my 9 year old Grandson and 5 year old Granddaughter. Florida will remain near the bottom of the states in science educational excellence because of religious ideology that belittles the value of scientific knowledge. The state Board of Education voted 4-3 to write the teaching of evolution into the state's standards for teaching science to K-12 students -- but qualified its vote by adopting a proposal to add the words "scientific theory of" before the word "evolution."
The vote was 4-3, with Chairman T. Willard Fair and members Linda Taylor, Phoebe Raulerson and Kathleen Shanahan in support. Members Roberto Martinez and Akshay Desai voted no because they backed the proposed standards as written, while Donna Callaway was opposed because she wanted the board to go even further toward "academic freedom." In late November the Florida Baptist Witness published comments from board member Donna Callaway. Callaway told the Jacksonville-based newspaper that she could not vote in favor of the proposed standards because evolution "should not be taught to the exclusion of other theories of origin of life." Board Member Roberto Martínez said "We're watering down the best possible standards we could have to appease a certain segment of society."
Department of Education officials floated the last-minute revision Friday evening in the face of mounting opposition from religious conservatives who said the proposed standards were too dogmatic in their treatment of evolution. Board Member Roberto Martínez questioned if the availability of and the voting on the alternative version was a violation of Florida's Sunshine Law?
A number of the 60 scientists and science teachers who helped devise Florida's proposed "world class" science standards said that they objected to the last-minute alternative version. The vote on the alternative version, according to Mary Jane Tappen, Executive Director, Office of Math and Science, was 29 disapproved, 2 approved and 7 said that "it was better than nothing" and no response from the others. Ignoring scientifically sound reason and the experts, the Board approved the alternative version.
I would hope, but doubt, that the same language would not be exclusively applied to the word "evolution" but would also be inserted before the word Gravity. If the Board does not apply this standard in an objective manner to all "theories" then it is obviously religious ideology.
Since this is an open thread...
I understand that in Jesus' time businesses in Rome did very poorly because lions ate all the prophets.
Houses of ill repute should always conduct business on the first floor, that way there is no fucking overhead.
General_Rennenkampf @ 49:
jerry falwell will lift his dome of protection from you heathenous vile villains.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Purple-in-Tampa @ 52:
What do the collegians in Florida have to say?
MiamiU
UFlorida
Florida State
I DID NOT HAVE SEX WITH THAT MAN!
Evolution is taught as fact here. Any religious ideas about how life might have began are considered taboo and something students are directed to ask their parents about as it falls under the realm of personal belief rather than fact [or rational thought].
I don't really give a damn if there are individuals who want to pretend that the earth is flat. So long as they keep their silly religion to themselves. They need to stop trying to force everyone to accept their superstition as fact. It's not. It never was or will be and the sooner we can leave it behind the better off we'll all be.
I will never understand people who don't just enjoy being ignorant and backward but insist that everyone else join them in the muck.
CoIntelPro @ 54:
jerry falwell will lift his dome of protection from you heathenous vile villains.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Ain't he dead?
I think adding the word "scientific" to "theory of evolution" makes the term completely valid and hard to refute. It modifies "theory" in a way that strengthens it. As an earlier poster said, once teachers start teaching about what a "scientific theory" is, then it's easy to show that other "theories" don't hold a candle to evolution. I imagine a very smart board member added "scientific" on purpose. It was rhetorically brilliant.
There's also a theory that the Earth is round, revolves on its axis, and moves in an orbit around the Sun. Some Italian came up with it, I think.
Nobody here in Florida is willing to test the theory, however...they're all afraid of falling off the edge, ticking God off, or being called conspiracy theorists.
CoIntelPro @ 55
Gerry Meisels, a professor of chemistry at the University of South Florida, urged the state board in an e-mail to adopt the version his group finalized in January, which does not refer to evolution as a theory.
See:
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/state/orl-evolution1708feb17,0...
4 extra words in Florida science proposal rankle educators
It was an umm, a umm, oh yeah, an immaculate conception. I swear, um god came down from heaven and umm, hell next thing I know I'm knocked up. Really Joseph, that's what happened.
CoIntelPro @ 54:
jerry falwell will lift his dome of protection from you heathenous vile villains.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Haaarumph! I see your falwell, and raise you a swaggart, a bakker, and that farting preacher...whatever the hell his name is!
And yes, I AM a practicing heathen...but I've retired from vile villainy...no healthcare. No 401K either. Lousy hours...
Odd - when I went to school, we weren't taught about the 'theory of gravity' or the 'theory of physics' or even the 'theory of evolution'.
These concepts were referred to as LAWS. The LAW of gravity and the LAWS of physics and the LAWS of evolution.
No compromise, and no haggling with people whose interests have nothing to do with education. Never.
Why do people continually allow themselves to get dragged into this polarity?
When are people going to realize that getting into arguments with wingers accomplishes NOTHING.
Get out, DO SOMETHING. Bend the rules whatever it takes.
Shut off the GOD DAMN TV
L.A. Confidential @ 65:
Use the internet as a damn tool instead of "entertainment"
MargeAggedon @ 57:
It's an opportunity for ignorant and stupid people to "feel" smart. If you get 100 imbeciles (may insert republican for imbecile) in a room, and they all agree that the saw Jesus' face on the back of Fred's pick-up, well........, you get the idea.
hmmmm, forgive if i repeat but this would then require a categorization of creationism... as in:
scientific theory of evolution
religious theory of creationism
and i thought that public schools were separate from religious institutions
just sayin
So this is what Hillary meant when she exclaimed during the most recent President Debate. "I want science put back in education!". Now that science has been redefined to mean anything.
Will "intelligent design" now be called the "scientific theory of intelligent design"? I thought it was a biblical theory, but it's science now.
esme @ 68:
You're mistaken
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wcXjeOLOX6o
Man, dead on with what I'm always laughing over. There's a difference between a theory and a Scientific Theory. This is the first thing I bring up every time someone brings this crap up to me.
Intelligent Design is a MYTH and it should be taught in mythology or religion classes.
As for this evolution diagram - there is one thing wrong with it. The guy sitting at the computer should be obese. The daily show had a better diagram that ended with a fat guy in a recliner watching TV.
It's not the word "theory" that's being mangled by the Jesus Jihadists, It's science in general. Explains why America is light years behind other countries when it comes to science scores.
In their defense, evolution is a theory that will, like all theories, be tested by advances in knowledge.
If only the fundies would test the "Theory of Gravity" by jumping off of the roof of their local middle school.
My karma just ran over their dogma.
If only the fundies would test the “Theory of Gravity” by jumping off of the roof of their local middle school.......
After all. Jesus ascended into heaven which calls into question the theory of gravity. All you need is to suspend disbelief as a true person of faith and this theory will no longer have any hold on you.
If on the other hand you fall to your messy death, you must have been a sinner.
Shared Humanity @ 74:
In much of FL, we call those colleges...
It's a sad time in human history that teaching science is an up hill battle.
hank @ 75:
Good lord is that a bumper sticker?!? If not it should be!!!!!
Ali @ 72:
That's exactly how I see so-called faith.
If any one is interested you can go to http://www.fldoe.org/meetings/2008_02_19/meetingArchive.asp
and watch a copy of the web cast of the entire Board of Education meeting.
Part 2 http://data.fldoe.org/winmed/2008_02_19/SBOE-Feb2-109k-pt2.wmv is the web cast of the Board debate and vote on the Science Standards.
I Am A Banana @ 78:
Make that a "sad time in American history" for a more accurate statement. Much of the developed world has long-since gotten past this issue.
kerplunk @ 69:
Nope. There is no scientific theory of Intelligent Design: there is a marked lack of observable data to prove this idea, and the scientific community has disproved most of the points ID proposed.
This was a well-written and -sourced posting. It effectively clears up the confusion behind using the work "theory" and highlights how religious institutions attempt to befuddle the public by deliberately misusing the word.
Now that Florida is taking steps to unravel the confusion, I am interested to see how this plays out. My teaching experience is not in Florida, but it has been my experience that it may take as long as 7 years for the textbooks to be changed (my districts change their textbooks an average of every 7 years). Even at the end of this time, the district decides which books they want the teachers to vote on. If the district chooses to select only books that exclude the term evolution, teachers will only have those books to choose from.
That being said, teachers have fairly free reign in their classrooms and there are a lot of ways to play around this terminology. Me, I'd put some humor in the situation. I'd explain to my students the controversy behind the term and introduce a bright and colorful SCIENTIFIC THEORY OF EVOLUTION (tm) sign to be used every time I had to use the term (you know, to protect the students from the raw power of the words!)
The Theory of Evolution Vs. the Fiction of Inteligent Design.
The Theory of Gravity Vs. the Fiction of the Rapture.
The earth is not flat. The Sun and the Universe does not revolve around our tiny little planet. We live in an obscure backwater of the Milky Way which is a tiny part of the Cosmos. Yep, God decided in all of his humility to put us here and to send his son here to die on a cross for all our sins so we could inspire the Universe to believe in him.
I Am A Banana @ 79:
I had that on my bumper for years. Lived in the bibull belt at the time. Once had an old woman verbally assault me because she was upset over my "blasphemous" and "offensive" bumper sticker. When she tried threatening me with a call to the cops I burst out laughing. I couldn't help myself. She was red faced and shaking when I got in my car and drove away, still laughing.
Fundies may be humorless assholes but they are fun to laugh AT.
I used to believe in evolution. now I don't there was no link between us and the apes. they have 48 chromosones we have 46. Where did we lose 2 chromosones. We didn't we were genetically modified using the apes as a base.
It should be called the Theology of Intelligent Design.
I was told by the good nuns in grade school that God always was and always will be. He has no begining. He has no end.
They forgot to mention that he has no middle.
david @ 86:
Look closer. Darwin did not say we evolved from apes. We evolved with apes.
Please know the rest of the world cries for you. Although all countries have politics interfering with things they shouldn't, in your case this is pretty sad. Although on the bright side we like the prospect of the US not hogging all those Nobel prizes is the near future hehehe.
david @ 86:
Yet humans and apes share >97% genetic homology. Chromosomes 3, 11, 14, 15, 18, 20, 6, 13, 19, 21, 22, X and Y have nearly identical banding patterns between humans and apes.
xoites defends Constitution @ 84:
Are fairy tales considered fiction or fantasy? I think 'fantasy' would be a more accurate descriptor for the work in question.
anon123 @ 90:
We have 300 million people here. If 40% of us believe in total bullshit that leaves 180 million. If 1% of 180 million become scientists that still gives us a shot.
MargeAggedon @ 93:
They are considered both, actually, but i think you are correct. The Fantasy of Inteligent Design is more acurate and descriptive.
Evolution is a theory that states organisms change over time.
Creationism is a superstition that the universe was created by a magic genie.
The big bang theory is a theory that states the universe was created by this unexplainable explosion.
Doesn't it make more sense for the fundies to go after the big bang theory. Evolution and creationism don't have shit to do with each other. It just blows my mind that these moron fundies are going after the wrong theory.
Purple-in-Tampa @ 82:
Thanks for the link.
God sent his only begotten son down to this tiny hick planet to die for our sins.
Our sin?
Eating forbidden fruit.
So God begat a son.
One son.
What? His wife died in childbirth? He decided he did not like sex? He had sex? He had a wife?
Oh that's right. I forgot. He sent an angel down to fuck a virgin and she remained a virgin. Joseph bought it. None of this makes any sense on any level.
Scientific Theory of Evolution? Great! Looks like the next big push will have to come from us. I say we start lobbying any state that insists that evolution be referred to as "theory" should also refer to Christianity, Judaism, Islam, etc. as "Religious theories of Creationism."
What's the big deal?
xoites defends Constitution @ 98:
It does if you consider all the early creationist myths they were desperately trying to jam into one story. It's hard trying to create a good cult, er religion. Just ask elron or joe smith.
Zog The Obvious @ 99:
It's a big deal because calling the creationist superstitious nonsense a "theory" suggests it contains credible, provable information.
It doesn't. Never has. Never will.
If I decide tomorrow that the world was created because the sun took a shit does the fact that I believe it give it credibility? No. And what other possible proof could I have other than my belief that it MIGHT have happened that way? None.
Creationism is a pseudo scientific term applied to a superstitious pile of steaming dog shit.
The part of evolution that is theoretical is "natural selection." Micro-Evolution, the change in the genetic make up of a population over time, and Macro-Evolution, speciation, are pretty well confirmed phenomenon (Micro-Evo has definitely bee confirmed, Macro-Evo is a little trickier). The part that is a theory is the mechanism for those changes. Darwin proposed "natural selection." His proposal has been modified over time with additional theoretical proposals like sexual selection, and genetic drift. The "theory of evolution by natural section" is really the proper terminology in this and all cases.
Dr. Matt @ 92:
And we share 50% of our genes with bananas and 85% of our genes with mice. Wow, living things sharing genes ... an interesting fact, but what is the point?
xoites defends Constitution @ 98:
The perfect crime: No evidence and Joseph's on the hook for child support.
Seriously, if Noah and his kids, Moses and his kids lived for over 800 years, then why isn't there better documentation of their lives? I mean, by about year three hundred, I'm writing shit down, because some of the details start getting sketchy.
Delicious! Maybe the beginning of the end of the phrase "just a theory." We may be evolving toward a more scientifically literate society. Our own use of a language is a good place to start. Try using phrases like "in principle" rather than "in theory" when expressing the ways things ought to work "in practice." Try saying "conjecture" or "hypothesis" to describe a potential explanation of events. Finally the distinction between a fact and a theory is something we should all have in our back pockets when someone blurts out "it's just a theory." Wilson piece is something we should memorize.
The following statements are examples of facts:
* One day a priest, a rabbi, and an atheist were walking by the geology building on campus.
* The geology building was 12 stories tall.
* The priest and the atheist went inside while rabbi waited outside.
* As the priest and the atheist walked in they saw a rock on display.
* There was a sign by the rock saying that it was 1 billion years old.
* The priest took the rock to the roof of the building
* The atheist went up to the eighth floor of the building.
* The priest dropped the rock off the roof.
* At that moment the atheist and the rabbi started timing the rock's fall
* When they reconvened they discovered something interesting about the relationship of between the times on the stopwatches.
Those statement are fact abouts observable events. After repeating experiments with different rocks dropped off of different buildings of different heights, one could then come up with the special theory of dropping rocks off of buildings. More thorough experiments could help one then develop the general theory of gravitation which could go on to display all manner of falling objects and even planetary motion.
I propose a compromise to this seemingly interminable debate:
Let's all call evolution a theory (using the popular connotation that equates it with conjecture) as part of a two part deal.
The second part of the deal is this: Subject christianity to one one-thousandth of the scrutiny evolution has endured, and subsequently plaster the results showing the extremely high probability that Jesus did not exist and is a giant LIE, to every school kid at least once a week (preferably on Sundays), and immediately before every meal or significant social event.
david @ 87:
Yes, you're right. Humans have 23 pairs of chomosomes, apes have 24 pairs. But perhaps surprisingly to you, it seems that one pair fused in humans.
Sorry to get all technical on you but it seems that you have caught religion.
Comparison of the Human and Great Ape Chomosomes as Evidence for Common Ancestry
"When one looks at the chromosomes of humans and the living great apes (orangutan, gorilla, and chimpanzee), it is immediately apparent that there is a great deal of similarity between the number and overall appearance of the chromosomes across the four different species. Yes, there are differences (and I will be addressing these), but the overall similarity is striking. The four species have a similar number of chromosomes, with the apes all having 24 pairs, and humans having 23 pairs.
[...]
There are two potential naturalistic explanations for the difference in chromosome numbers - either a fusion of two separate chromosomes occurred in the human line, or a fission of a chromosome occurred among the apes. The evidence favors a fusion event in the human line. One could imagine that the fusion is only an apparent artifact of the work of a designer or the work of nature (due to common ancestry). The common ancestry scenario presents two predictions. Since the chromosomes were apparently joined end to end, and the ends of chromosomes (called the telomere ) have a distinctive structure from the rest of the chromosome, there may be evidence of this structure in the middle of human chromosome 2 where the fusion apparently occurred."
Zog
The use of the word, "theory", is critically important in framing the argument, so I'd call your attention to the terminology used in the information below.
The Scientific Method
The scientific method attempts to explain the natural occurrences (phenomena) of the universe by using a logical, consistent, systematic method of investigation, information (data) collection, data analysis (hypothesis), testing (experiment), and refinement to arrive at a well-tested, well-documented, explanation that is well-supported by evidence, called a theory. The process of establishing a new scientific theory is necessarily a grueling one; new theories must survive an adverse gauntlet of skeptics who are experts in their particular area of science; the original theory may then need to be revised to satisfy those objections. The typical way in which new scientific ideas are debated are through refereed scientific journals, such as Nature and Scientific American. (Depending upon the area of science, there are many other journals specific to their respective fields that act as referees.) Before a new theory can be officially proposed to the scientific community, it must be well-written, documented and submitted to an appropriate scientific journal for publication. If the editors of these prestigious publications accept a research article for publication, they are signaling that the proposed theory has enough merit to be seriously debated and scrutinized closely by experts in that particular field of science. Skeptics or proponents of alternative or opposing theories may then try to submit their research and data, while the original proponents of the proposed theory may publish new data that answers the skeptics. It may take many years of often acrimonious debate to settle an issue, resulting in the adoption, modification, or rejection of a new theory. For example, the Alvarez Meteorite Impact theory (a 6-mile wide meteorite struck the earth 65 million years ago, ending the Cretaceous Period and causing extinction of the dinosaurs), was first proposed in 1979, and took about 10 years of debate before winning over the majority of earth scientists.
The Scientific Method in Earth Science
The classic scientific method where a convenient laboratory experiment may be devised and observed often cannot be done in the earth sciences. This is because most of earth and geological phenomena are too big (earthquakes, volcanic eruptions) or too slow (mountain building, climate change) to be observed easily or replicated; the earth itself is the "laboratory." Also, because many of the events analyzed by geologists occurred long ago, they often "working backwards" - that is, they start with the conclusion (a rock or fossil), and try to work out the sequence of past events that occurred over geologic time.
Limitations of the Scientific Method
The scientific method is limited to those phenomena which can be observed or measured. [E.g., not a religious belief or conviction that God created everything just as it is today.] For example, what existed prior to the Big Bang and the known universe is outside of the realm of science to investigate.
Science is good at explaining "how things work" but not necessarily for explaining "why do such things exist" or "for what purpose." (Science does not really explain why the Universe exists.)
cervantes @ 9:
Just a nitpick: the First Law of Thermodynamics isn't a theory, it's a law. That's a significant difference, there.
according to what a couple Flordians have told me:
Florida high schools get grades--for the whole school. Seriously. Then any dumb student that goes to an 'A' school will go around telling everyone how great their school is--and what do these grades for the whole school typically correlate to?? Property tax levels, of course, which are radically different from one town to the next in Florida.
And even with all that, the 'A' schools are still brimming with dim-witted religious fundamentalists.
What a system. I wonder what the 'D' schools are like.
I think asking them to get science education right in this era is a bit of wishful thinking.
xoites defends Constitution @ 90:
The answer to his question more accurately is that two chimpanzee chromosomes merged to form one human chromosome, I believe in the 10s or so of the autosomes. And David, buddy, you don't believe science, you understand and accept it. Remember, this is a Southern SoBap who accepts evolution talkin' afore ya criticizes me of bein' one o'dem heathens.
I believe that Creation started when a Giant Cosmic Cat barfed up a hairball, and the hairball hatched.
Now where is my millions of government dollars to enforce all schools to teach this?
xoites defends Constitution @ 98:
Technically, before God the Father raped Mary, he already had a Son and a Holy Spirit with him in heaven. The doctrine of the Trinity (which as a monotheist has never seemed to gell with that) states that God the Son was eternally co-existent with the Father and the Spirit, and that when God the Father made Gabriel go down and convince Mary that being raped by God meant blessed assurance, glory divine (:eyeroll:), God the Spirit banged her and then God the Son took on human flesh.
All very moral and Christian-like of course. Not a whiff of my European forefather's paganism about it, none at all. ;)
Looks like Lusmu and General Rennenkampf beat me to the explanation about the merging of two chromosomes in apes to form one in humans.
The contributors to this board make me proud.
The Big Bang was caused by a party at Studio 54.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYGqLD3FZK0
I always thought it should be called Studio 69.
Otay @ 114:
Facts are facts. As a Southern Baptist with a rational mind, I must defend the facts, not the evil delusions offered in place thereof by heretics clinging to modern theories and then stating that their heresies are the true way.
And another thing-as an incurable pedant, I must question why the march of progress is used as a symbol for evolution instead of, say, a more accurate thing like a phylogenetic tree? The march of progress encourages the misunderstanding that evolution implies progress when all evolution is is the spread of genes through babies and changes therof. The march of progress encourages the idea that Homo sapiens sapiens was inevitable, when a fair-minded look at the fossil record would reveal that all other bipedal apes on our side of the Homo, Pan split are gone, and so nearly were we. Just a philosophical objection.
113 General_Rennenkampf
You forget, Mary was underaged. She was 13-15 at most.
And the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception was HER conception.
For some reason Jesus's was never described with that term.
The Jewish historian Josephus claimed that Miriam (Mary) was a temple hierodule (holy prostitute) that gave birth to a son who gathered followers. Tradition had it the father was a Roman centurian, so I always wondered if Monty Python was aware of that when they made Brian the son of a Roman centurion, Naughtius Maximus. The tradition has it that the centurian father of Jesus (Yeshua Ben Joseph) was name Panthera (not the heavy metal band). But Christian apologists try to insist that was a shallow play on Parthenos which means virgin, however that seems to link Miriam/Mary to Athena whose temple was called Parthenon.
For a period there somewhere there was
Sorry, all that was from Josephus, the tradition I was thinking of I didn't mention, and that that Panthera was a Celt.
παρθένος
Clarence Larkin
http://www.preservedwords.com/charts.htm
98 xoites defends Constitution:
Actually according to the Qabbalah God was described as having a wife, purely spiritual both. One could call it allegorical language. Her name was Shekhina, which to me always sounded like a name for a potential mate to Tarzan's Cheetah.
Shekhina had some sort of inverse relationship with Lilith. The relationship I've never really understood. Somehow Lilith was on earth producing 100 babies a day, with the demon Samael, while god destroyed her 100 babies at night, making Him the first retroactive abortionist. Finally all the babies were destroyed, and Lilith declared revenge on the children of her ex-hubby Adam (the terrestial manisfestation of Adam Kadmon), and his new trophy wife Eve the Younger. That would be us.
Funny how they don't want to teach all this in school, kind of Days of Our Lives.
ysbaddaden @ 118:
Which just adds more ammo to my theory that the Bible-worshipers don't know what they speak of. An underaged girl raped by the Holy Spirit (Oh God (pun not intended) the thought of Biblical tentacle hentai) just adds more fuel to the idea that God just ain't nice to humans. Of course, all you have to do is open your Bible to chapters six through eight of Genesis to prove that. :sarcasm-on the last sentence, none before it.:
America, marching backwards to the 12th century, and Florida is proud to be leading the way.
Oops, I forgot to mention that Shekhina was supposed to be wondering with the Lost Tribes of Israel, kind of a camp follower, and only in some end-time would she be rejoined to God. Lilith seems to be no longer begetting like a Catholic by the Red Sea, but is now in Heaven.
The Gnostics called Shekhina Sophia (Wisdom), which I always thought sounded like it could be derived from Ain Soph (limitless light), one of the three waves of emanations above the Qabbalic Tree of Life (ain, ain soph, ain soph aur). What was odd though was the Greek Orthodox church, Hagia Sophia, was the site of a terrible slaughter of Greeks, committed by Roman Catholic forces during the Crusades, although they were welcomed in to slaughter the Islamic forces. The Crusaders presumably saw no difference between "infidels," since they saw the opportunity for plunder, and could justify it by the Great Schism of 1054.
No I'm not high
Presently.
Better get started. It'll come together for you.
I once did an evolutionary cartoon like that, cartooning is a hobby of mine. But instead of somebody hunched over a pc, I had a guy in loud polka-dot swim trunks wasted out of his mind and carrying a beer.
xoites defends Constitution @ 98:
ANd don't forget when Adam and Eve had 2 sons, one killed the other, leaving only 3 people on Earth. The world continued to get populated (all that "begat-ing" gointg on) which leaevs only one possibility: LOTS of incest! Did Cain have sex with his Ma? Or did A&E have more progeny, and THEY had sex among themselves?
No fundie has ever come up with a response to this.
123 General_Rennenkampf
One of the earlier creation stories with a couple in a garden was Persian. They people were created for grunt labor for the gods. They weren't meant to have eternal life. The ending of the Epic of Gilgamesh has Shamash, the sun god, telling Gilgamesh to seek happiness with his wife with good food, and sex, and not seek immortality which was for the gods alone.
So Babylonians in particular thought of death as a condition to be cured if the right incantation could be found, kind of like we try to find cures for cancer.
Matt in Texas @ 129:
There's some tradition that Cain mated with the demons in the wilderness, the children of Lilith and Sammael, and possibly with fallen angels. This is how they explained the birth of monsters and other non-Hebraic races.
I'm borrowing a computer at a library and will probably be cut off soon, so y'all will have to play with yourselves.
What if God liked sex? He created us and we have sex to reproduce even though it is a sin to have sex for fun. So what if God liked sex? With his abilities why would he ever create men? Or is he a voyeur?
Oh yeah, and Adam and Eve had a third son, Seth.
Another explanation for monsters, demons and other races was that one of the sons of Noah, Ham, (also known as Chem) was the sire of them all.
Presumably Ham wasn't kosher.
xoites defends Constitution @ 133:
On the old Hercules/Xena series, they portrayed the Greek pantheon as just that. Most of the men went for action and violence, whereas Aphrodites wanted to watch romance.
http://www.mirrorblue.com/annex/ybaphro/aphrodite2.jpg
ysbaddaden @ 135:
I bet God would do that.
136 xoites defends Constitution
Personally, I hope when I die, I'll become one of the spirits of lust, present whenever people are fu**ing,
Hopefully none like Rosanne Barr and Tom Arnold.
ysbaddaden @ 137:
You will have to take the good with the bad. I wouldn't plan on getting any eternal rest, though.
Larry Craig...
Careful what you wish for.
ysbaddaden @ 137:
Like St. Thomas, the Peeper?
xoites defends Constitution @ 138:
Maybe a cardiac arrest.
Andy K @ 140:
I know of the Apostle Thomas, and the Lady Godiva story but no St Thomas the Peeper.
But who would want to watch a nekkid Lady ride past, after she's been eating all those Godiva Chocolates?
There's been some speculation that the Apostle Thomas was a way of shoe-horning the Akkadian vegetation god into the story. Tammuz is also the name of the tenth month of the Hebrew civil year, and the fourth month of their ecclesiastical year.
ysbaddaden @ 142:
Sure, you know St. Thomas the Peeper. His feast day is April 1. If you thumb through the iconography and run across the Saint with the hairy palms, that's him!
Actually Thomas the Apostle is the one who doubted Christ was the son of God (doubting Thomas). Naturally he is mostly ignored.
xoites defends Constitution @ 144:
No, this is the Third Century Armenian monk who performed the miracle of the Repopulation of Dan. St. Thomas the Peeper began praying for the town of Dan when its infant mortality shot through the rooves. Not only did Thomas pray, but the Bishop of Dan gave orders that all husbands and wives prayed together, and to assure that they did the Bishop charged Thomas to enforce the edict.
Some people deamand physical evidence.
Andy K @ 145:
I volunteer to do a repopulation miracle!
One of the the odd things I picked up is that the Pied Piper of Hamlin may've orignally been Transylvanian.
And I always felt sorry for the mice like the 2000 Gaderene pigs.
charles @ 146:
I don't demand evidence of something that does not exist. I am sane and do not expect people to manufacture evidence. If you take the existence of God on faith. Why can't i have faith he does not exist?
ysbaddaden @ 148:
??
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