Who Speaks For Islam?
By Nicole Belle Wednesday Feb 27, 2008 11:46amThe pictures of Barack Obama in African garb and the focus by wingnuts on his middle name has shown the continual fear of the Other on the part of the Republican party, with the other being Muslims. When you have people screaming that Obama will swear on the Koran instead of the Bible and Muslim Rep. Keith Ellison (who did take his oath on the Koran) being asked to prove his allegiance to this country, it's clear that way too many people buy into the "Muslims are the enemy" mentality. This whole notion that all Muslims are some 7th century throwback who "hate us for our freedoms" really does show the collective dumbing down of this country.
Gallup did an extensive survey of 50,000 Muslims globally on their attitudes and values, and recently published its findings in a book called Who Speaks For Islam? Some of their findings knock out these insulting stereotypes that the administration and media keep feeding us:
The result is Who Speaks for Islam? What a Billion Muslims Really Think, based on six years of research and more than 50,000 interviews representing 1.3 billion Muslims who reside in more than 35 nations that are predominantly Muslim or have sizable Muslim populations. Representing more than 90% of the world's Muslim community, it makes this poll the largest, most comprehensive study of its kind.
What the data reveal and the authors illuminate may surprise you:
* Muslims and Americans are equally likely to reject attacks on civilians as morally unjustifiable.
* Large majorities of Muslims would guarantee free speech if it were up to them to write a new constitution AND they say religious leaders should have no direct role in drafting that constitution.
* Muslims around the world say that what they LEAST admire about the West is its perceived moral decay and breakdown of traditional values - the same answers that Americans themselves give when asked this question.
* When asked about their dreams for the future, Muslims say they want better jobs and security, not conflict and violence.
* Muslims say the most important thing Westerners can do to improve relations with their societies is to change their negative views toward Muslims and respect Islam.
Hmmm....doesn't sound like the bloodthirsty savages bent on destroying this country, does it? Will this survey or its findings ever make it onto American airwaves? Nope, I don't think so either. It's so much easier to wallow in ignorance and bigotry.
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99.9999999999% of all muslims are peaceful people, with the same hopes and dreams as us in the US. There much common ground we could explore if we put away the rhetoric.
After all, Jesus is considered a prophet of Islam (as is Abraham).
It's the Republican MO...there always has to be a "them" or bogeyman, i.e., communists, immigrants, homos, and now, Muslims.
Islam is the new comunism, and the Bush administration et al have been festering this climate since 20 zealot criminals exploited a weakness in our security. Things didn't have to get this bad afterward, but we let it happen nonetheless.
"After all, Jesus is considered a prophet of Islam (as is Abraham)."
We should put away the religions, too. Too often the Muslims that are associated with violence are being good islamists. Just the same many Americans that are associated with violence are being good Christians.
Bah, research smeasearch. This is probably all a clever ploy orchestrated by Barack Hussein Obama to lower our guard and hand America to the evil mooselums. *rolls eyes*
Genital mutilation, burkas, forced to wear black bedsheets, beheaded for having extra marital sex. I will never understand why any woman would willingly submit to Muslim Sharia law. Islam is a horrible, degrading, dehumanizing, brutal and insane 7th Century religion.
Did Obama swear in on the Kuran or just Ellison?
abob @ 6:
So is Christianity. I fail to see the difference between any of the cults regardless of how "mainstream" they are.
The REAL enemies of America are in the White House now.
Muslims are to neocons what the jews were to nazis. Convenient scapgoats.
Islam deserves nobody's respect.
Of course neither does Christianity, so the right-wing fear of Islam is beyond hypocritical.
I really hope that's true. The Danish cartoon fiasco makes me pessimistic though.
CafeenMan @ 8:
Yes. As Richard Dawkins says, "What you cannot deny about all religions is they are weird."
What does worry me is the third point and it's what bothers me most about the Christian right in the US, too. Breakdown of traditional moral values is often code for gay rights, women's rights, minority rights, etc. Lumping the Muslims in with the Christians doesn't make me feel better. The glory of the West is the breakdown of traditional moral values in many cases. Traditional moral values are often hateful and draconian in their application.
abob @ 6:
By the way, are you willing to judge God and renounce the many atrocities he committed that are documented in the Bible? Or are you willing to denounce the Bible? If you've actually read it you know it's a really sick book.
Abbie @ 11:
And a certain book by Salman Rushdie.
My understanding is there is no central hierarchy, nothing comparable to pope and Vatican.
Some of the Cathars on the run from the Inquisition may've coverted to Islam.
But any Imam can issue fatwas, which aren't necessarily dangerous, but have been of late.
Then you also have caliphates and ayatollahs, one being Sunni the other Shia.
Some would say their lack of McDonaldization of religion (over a billion served) is what makes Islam dangerous.
Give me extra pickles and onions.
Arrow @ 3:
20 Sealot Criminals. I'm sorry. No one believes that it was anything but an inside job. It's the "myth of our age" like the Assassination of JFK (by the same people if my research holds).
It will be used as a Neo-Con launching point. They needed it, and it happened. I'm sorry that alone reeks of complicitiness.
abob @ 6:
Isn't circumcision genital mutilation?
If you're talking vaginal you're talking about a cultural factor not religious. In fact, the Islamic leaders are trying to stop that in Africa.
As I've said here before, this administration has engaged in a course of conduct in their policy toward Saudi Arabia which can only be described as flat-out treason. They have actively covered up a mountain of evidence implicating their bestest oil buddies in the Middle East in the rise of Al Qaeda and the attacks on 9/11. It's no wonder that so many people feel compelled to blame Islam as a whole. If there was a common understanding of the basic facts surrounding 9/11 and Al Qaeda, people would understand with crystal clarity that the problem is not Islam generally, but one particular Islamic nation and the ideology they are spending billions to export abroad.
CafeenMan @ 14:
My kids won't be reading the bible. It's a book half taken from Egyptian mythology and the other half about genocide of and prejudice.
It certainly doesn't help that the 'War on Terror' is really a war on muslim-extremism, so all media coverage of terrorist attacks and such is purely the ones committed by muslim-extremists. It's the only media coverage of muslims many already narrow-minded americans have every gotten. If this were a real war on terror then other targets would include the I.R.A., right-wing christians who murder abortion doctors, etc, which would provide a more accurate, broader definition of terror then the muslim focused one we are engaged in now.
To sum it up; bad publicity!
In one of the more hilariously ironic developments of Campaign '08, the Politico reports that the GOP is undertaking a crash course in diversity training of sorts. Desperate to avoid another devastating "Macaca moment" in the fall campaign, the Republican National Committee is "working on plans to protect the GOP from charges of racism or sexism in the general election." Unfortunately, that's a tall order for a fractured party united only by its common disdain for immigrants, blacks, gay Americans and above all, Muslims. Like the proverbial leopard, the Party of Hate cannot change its spots.
For the details, see:
"RNC Orders Diversity Training for the Party of Hate."
abob @ 6:
Sounds like Judaism.
I didn't ask to be circumsized.
abob @ 6:
You haven't read the Bible much, have you? It's full of the same type of extremism as the Koran. Check the old testament.
CafeenMan @ 14:
Indeed. Which is why we need to stop the practice of shrouding all religious beliefs in unquestionable "respect". Respecting crazy beliefs just gives the fundamentalists their power.
Smade @ 13:
Indeed. In fact, until recently these individuals were thought of as too scarce to talk about.
In Canada it is found that Bi-Sexuals may be the MAJORITY of Canadians. Yes. over 50% of men and women in Canada admit to be being SOMEWHAT attracted to the same sex.
How, in the sttes, if you are "like that" but don't wanna be, they have a party that you can join that allows you to say your not, and hide the fact you are.
And they even have "parties" late nite for you to enjoy. Have you met Jeff Gannon?
Fools! They're lying to lull you into a false sense of security! Sean Hannity said so! ;-)
CheneyIsADick @ 23:
At least the old testament lets you die. The new testament gets you in the afterlife.
I hate all religions equally, and only a miracle would keep this subject OUT of political debate, where it doesn't belong.
Damn!
AngryOne @ 21:
Wow. If Lincoln came back he would execute each one of these mutherfrackers for treason and doing what they did to his party.
Think about he. Lincoln freed the slaves, so GWB can round them up with the "othered coloured folk".
I may be wrong, but the "continual fear of the Other" seems to be more about the fact that he's black, rather than that he might be a scaaaary Muslim. I think the Muslim thing is just a nice beard for their inherent racism.
Fanon @ 30:
Agreed (and excellent screen-name, by the way; quite topical). Though really, there's no difference today - 'Muslim' is the nigger of the world.
Whooka @ 20:
Call it war on terror or war on Islam or whatever. It doesn't change the fact that the war is really about securing energy supplies for the US until the end of the century.
Whooka @ 20:
Exactly! The media reports domestic terrorist attacks as "random shootings" instead of what they are - domestic terrorist attacks. Ask the people at any of the school, churches, malls, workplaces or their homes if they felt terrorized when a gunman opened fire. OK, you can only ask the survivors if there were any.
It seems to be only republicans who go into other countries at gunpoint and tell them how they're supposed to run things. Meanwhile, they live in gated communities and complain constantly about the "clipboard lady" who comes around telling them their garden hose is coiled to the wrong diameter.
Whenever republicans are in charge they let their own country go to shit while invading others. They love welfare when it comes to "saving" people from "evil dictators" but when somebody in their own country needs a hand they call those people "crackhead welfare cheats."
Republicans are extremely "liberal" when it comes to rich dynasties (Saudi) or well-to-do corporations but they can't spare a dime for a person dying in New Orleans.
The conservatives who preach Phear Islam are no different than the Evangelicals who cry 'persecution!' whenever they're told no, despite the fact that radical Islam has done less since 9/11 to restrict and rescind freedoms than our own government has. (And, in turn, we've become less the free nation that these 'evil people' supposedly wish to destroy, and more of an echo of those things we despise.)
The sad truth is that neither America nor faith is as fragile as these loudmouths believe. Even if every community were suddenly cut off from one another, no cable news to tell us what to think, would Americans suddenly knuckle under to some kook proclaiming Shari'a Law who comes riding into town? I don't think so.
The same with faith. Christmas. Evolution. Blah, blah, blah. Is your faith defined by what others believe? How can faith be taken away by someone else refusing to admire your plastic Baby Jesus figure sitting on the lawn?
The problem is, the fear-mongers and idiots won't change because of some Gallup study. The hate is worked into every last fiber of their being. It's irrational, and it validates their narrow views. For people like Beck, Hannity, Limbaugh, Coulter, etc - it garners attention - they're afraid not of being wrong, but of not mattering. It's the same as George W. "Verdict of History" Bush. They'll be proven right, and you'll be sorry, you'll see. You just wait.
Who speaks for Islam? How about Cat Steven/Yusuf Islam as a spokesperson.
CafeenMan @ 7:
Ahem. Neither man swore on anything, actually.
Ellison chose to take his official photograph with the Koran (once owned by Thomas Jefferson).
Here in the south, the rumors are coming fast and furious about Obama being a "secret Muslim"... this really needs to be addressed head-on. They are coming up with all kinds of bizarro-universe readings of Revelation that fit in with that "fact", too.
It's like an underground rumbling that the right wing of the GOP will nonetheless capitalize on.
Fanon @ 30:
I've been talking to some other liberal bloggers about this and it's a little hard for us to separate it. I think that in this current climate, it's safer to openly hate Muslims (note abob's post above) than to hate African-Americans. The pushback on racial bigotry is much more immediate and one that they try to shy away from. The fear of Muslims (by emphasizing his middle name, talking about how he comes from a Muslim family) seems to be a more acceptable form of hate.
And frankly, it pisses me off. I've blogged before that I have an uncle who is Muslim and he's gone through some tremendously hate-filled incidences post-9/11 that makes me very sensitive to attitudes like abob's, which is just fundamentally ignorant.
And I think that it is incumbent upon those of us who are more enlightened to call out bigotry in all its forms. Why don't the right wing whip themselves up into a frenzy over people like Eric Rudolph, Chad Castagana and Tim McVeigh, who have demonstrably shown a willingness to terrorize and harm American people? Because they're white, Christians and right wingers.
To judge a diverse group of people world wide by a handful of extremists is as inane and ignorant as to judge all Americans by the actions of McVeigh, et al.
And I have a question for those who are concerned about "traditional moral values."
To what time do you want to go back to? The Hippie 60's? Ozzie and Harriet? Al Capone? The Wright Brothers? The Civil War? The Mexican/American war? Indian wars? Discovery of America? Dark ages? Birth of Christ? Stone ages?
abob @ 6:
Do you know your own history? Americans have done almost everything you mentioned to non-whites all over the world. When misinformed clowns like you try to judge others from your imaginary perch you get laughed at because intelligent people worldwide know more about this nation's horrible history than you do.
It doesn't matter, they are all unpeople anyway.
Has there ever been a society whose most conservative members didn't decry a breakdown in traditional values as a sure path to Armageddon? One of my particular favorites is the B.S. claim that Rome fell because of it's decadence. No one ever seems to point out that Rome didn't "fall" until after it was proclaimed a "Christian" Empire.
Of course, this is what they used to do to the Catholics, calling them "Papists' and saying that they were more loyal to the Pope than to the US. This was not that long ago, either. Maybe there are some principled Catholic leaders who will speak out against this crap?
Shadowgm @ 35:
Ok. Question is did Obama do the same thing?
Fanon @ 30:
They are neo-con's studying the writing of their 'cult leader', Leo Strauss, give's you a good idea on what basis they work on. One is "Creating an perpatuating the myth". This is EXACTLY what the Council of Nicene did in Rome. That created Catholicism.
Well, look at today They constantly perpetuate the muslim myth of 9/11. Using it and the deaths they likely ordered, spead chaos and terror throughout the world.
If the 1960's James Bond were real these guys are the EXACT type of 'world enemy' that we need super spies and super-heroes for.
That face they can make you think that YOU are wrong for attacking them while they are attacking you the whole time is absolutely stunning.
Unfortunately, the extremists do, for whichever group is focused upon.
CafeenMan @ 43:
No. Why would he?
Did they ask their opinions on the appropriate reaction to cartoons depicting Mohammed or writings perceived to be hostile to Islam, particularly by former muslims (e.g., Salman Rushdie)?
Fanon @ 30:
An Edwards supported used that same "fear" on my sister-in-law during the Iowa caucus. He told her that Obama was a Muslim. But I agree that the right thinks Islamic facism is our number one fear when it is really the incompetence of our own government we need to fear.
I have some skeptism when polling 50,000 people to try and look at the attitudes of 1.3 billion. The 50,000 were likely moderate Muslims to begin with.
I think the majority of Muslims are peaceful and respectful people. But, just like in the states, the extremes tend to screw everything up for everyone else.
"wallow in ignorance and bigotry"...........pretty well sums up the repug party if you ask me.
navyswan @ 46:
I don't know. I just know a couple people I've spoken to (southern baptists) are claiming he did like it's something horrible. I didn't know if he did or didn't but I suspected they had him mixed up with Ellison (whose name I also couldn't remember). Point being I couldn't set them straight and didn't try because I (unlike GOPers) knew I didn't know the facts.
KCThinker @ 48:
50,000 is a HUGE number for a poll. Most US polls question around 1200 people on average to get an idea of what the general population thinks.
CafeenMan @ 38:
The sad thing is, Leo Strauss took (and distorted) the writings of one of my favorite philosophers, Nietsche, to justify his own ideological nonsense. That Strauss wanted to defend Christianity, whereas Nietzsche called it the "one great blemish, the one immortal curse" of Western civilization, belies his lack of philological skills.
The idea, purged of all modern neo-con influence, is that all morality is the synthesis of an exploited class to raise itself above its betters. Strauss turned this on its head in supposing that morality is the invention of a higher class to exploit its inferiors, thus justifying anything which preserves the old moral order.
Christians or Christianists? An islamist is one who wants a religious government based on Islam.
Islam sounds like something the Incredible Hulk would yell if he were a Lucha Libre.
CafeenMan @ 43:
Of course not, he's christian you doof. His CHRSTIAN church is being investigated by the IRS, due in part at Cheney's insistance, I'm sure, but Christian it is and still is.
And I personally would burn it to the ground because Christians scare the shit outta me more than muslims. Muslims are usually poor and makeing due with their suffering.
Rich Fat ass americans SAY they are Christians, but arn't. Say they are persecuted, but arn't and say they are in danger, but arn't.
They are the global elite. They are the richest most powerful religion in the world, killed off more people than any other religion known, and in no way is a religion of peace.
CafeenMan @ 50:
Obama is a professed Christian. There is no reason for him to use the Koran. It sounds like your baptist friends have been lured into the 'secret muslim' trap.
Take a dying empire in a recession and stir in a bunch of hillbilly politicians, and you have a recipe for serious craziness.
In other words: Sex is bad. Equal rights are bad. Gays are bad. It's a wonder they're not in
What they call "moral decay" I call "free expression."
Disrespecting Islam is part of free expression. If I don't have the right to criticize their god or prophet, I'm not totally free, even if I never exercise that right.
Hmmmm, so then, why is it, that the extreme fringes of both cultures seems to be running the railroads... In spite of the fact that, apparently, the percentages would seem to favor the more rational of both Islam and christianity being in charge of framing the issues...And resolving them... Just why is that, and what can the sane among our two respective cultures do to reign in our respective wingnuts??? Who knows, the right answer to that just might, maybe, save the world from a sad recreation of the 7th to 12th centuries a.d. more or less, when the shit hit the fan between these two religious ideologies the first time..... And untold numbers of people died needlessly, pointlessly, over dogma. I don't think either God or Allah cared much for that shit personally....JD
Cracker's for Christ @ 57:
You forgot the gunpowder, the moonshine, and the nubile young daughter.
Krackonis @ 55:
I hereby formally submit my apology for my doofyness. I don't pay much attention to what religion anyone is because I don't care. The people whom I do know what their religion is, is because they won't shut up about it no matter how much I tell them I don't care.
The US government has to have some way of creating "bad guys" in order to justify the crap that they do, with and without their population's knowledge. Cuba is evil....cuz the people overthrew a corrupt American asskissing gov't. Chavez is evil....cuz the people overthrew a corrupt American asskissing gov't.....Iran is evil....cuz the people overthrew a corrupt American asskissing gov't......and the list goes on and on.....Radical "terrists" are nothing more than people seeking revenge for past atrocities committed on their people. I am totally surprised to listen to wingnuts not GET that. Even in my country. People are right dense.
jack damage @ 59:
Because the majority in both cultures are unpeople.
WMorrisLives @ 2:
Yes, but we all know that the real "them" is them damn rethuglicans! They are the single greatest threat to this nation.
navyswan @ 56:
Well, I know he's a bigot but like I said, I didn't know the facts and even if Obama was a muslim and did swear on the Kuran I wouldn't care. My only point was that I didn't know and couldn't stick the dude with facts.
I think all religion is nonsense and in many ways it's as evil as evil can be but what a person believes is fine with me as long as he's not hurting anyone and he's not legislating it into anyone else's life.
jack damage @ 59:
Because both profess monotheistic beliefs, with a 'metanarrative' to explain the world from Creation to annihilation. Polytheistic (pagan) religions, to the contrary, are self-conscious metaphors used to describe the multiplicity and perspectival nature of the world.
Monotheism makes an absolute truth-claim and can therefore tolerate no others.
I was a guest in both Saudi Arabia and Turkey and all I can say is that I have never been treated better in any other place I've been to. The people I met met have the same concerns and hopes that we have. The culture in S A is very structured and rigid but that means that it's different not hostile. The people are much the same as anywhere, although they are harder to get to know. The fact that they don't have an international spokesperson ie. the Pope, to strongly condemn bombings etc. it's harder [impossible?] for the average person to "stick their necks out" by speaking up. If someone of stature was to say that terrorist acts do not represent Islam [and keep on saying it] maybe we could begin to make progress--but it will be slow. Also, of course, it's far more complicated than this, but we have to begin somewhere.
CafeenMan @ 65:
I agree, I am an atheist.
ConcernedCanuck @ 62:
Why Canuck! I take offense to this post!!! You spelled turrists wrong! Ain't not one E in turrists!
Geeez! And here I was thinkin you was all smart and shit!
The fact that there was a survey needed to prove those things is disgusting and we all should be ashamed. Muslims are people too everyone, its ridiculous to think any differently
Where is Christopher Hitchkins when you need him?
Gandhi was influenced partly by Islam.
Who Speaks For Islam?
Rita Rudner?
Some people just aren't happy unless they have someone to dislike or hate. Right now those people are focusing on Muslims. They are all but encouraged by our insane government and too lazy to educate themselves and discover the truth. Ignorance is truly bliss for them.
KCthinker@48 "I think the majority of Muslims are peaceful and respectful people" Hey Bill Bennett, can't you make that statement about any religious group? If true why say it unless some convincing (especially to yourself) is necessary.
CafeenMan @ 43:
OK: Are you an idiot, or what??? Why would Obama, a Christian with no direct link to Islam (His father was an apostate, the one thing Islam hates more than anything), take an oath on the Qur'an, even IF that were even allowed (it's not!)?
How did the kool-aid taste?
Torbin @ 71:
Drunk passed out in a ditch somewhere probably.
Torbin @ 71:
Drinking, no doubt.
A shocking development. You mean... Muslims... are, like, human beings?
navyswan @ 77:
I miss my drunken Atheisit!
Nicole @ 37
Well, that's how I see it. Though you, as usual, are much more eloquent.
WMorrisLives @ 2:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwjRwAJXuYM
I actually studied Arabic, Islam, and the Koran, so let me give you a qualified answer:
1) genital mutilation is (circumcising women) is not an Islamic habit or law. Many Muslims scholars have denounced it. It is an African tribal habit and it is only practiced in African nations (non Muslim ones too).
2)Burkas and bedsheets: This is an Afghani tribal law. The Koran merely says that both men and women should be modest in their dress.
3)beheaded for having extra marital sex: The Koran says that 4 people must witness a person engaged in explicit XXX intercourse before they can be accused of extra-marital sex. Anyone will tell you that it's impossible to have 4 witnesses.
Right wing radio talk show bufoon Mike Gallagher ended a show this week by saying he thought the picture of Senator Obama wearing a turban was a big deal because...wait for it...we are in a war against islamofascism.
Earth to Gallagher: The only religion that requires wearing a turban is Sikhism.
That is what we are up against. A strain of blissful ignorance and intransigent stupidity that runs deep and wide through the right wing base.
DR @ 76:
Dude - give it a rest. I already said I don't know what religion he is. I don't care. Read the rest of my posts after that one. Thank you.
If a large majority want free speech, they should have a revolution. Dont they read Hobbes?
Torbin @ 80:
You rang?
http://www.tvacres.com/images/lurch_butler3a.jpg
Sean @ 86:
I read Calvin & Hobbes.
These savages! How dare those people that brought us out of the dark ages have feelings? Look back to the Moorish control of parts of Europe and the middle east just prior to the "renaissance" Libraries, mathematics, astronomy.
If it weren't for the idiotic catholic empire, we could have had a 500 year jump on technology and learning that we squandered for the sake of the inquisition.
You all that still think religion is anything but controlled hatred club that is for something else and not against anything contradictory should try to learn from history. Just read it and see what your religion really cares about. Being a part of most preclude your having any say about peace or justice. You simply can't be a part of the solution if you are direct participant to the cause.
grow up, open a book and learn about history. or be ready to repeat it. old story, same ending.
Campy @ 84:
Gandhi wore a turban!! Holy crap! He was an islamofascist!!
ysbaddaden @ 60:
Wait! I heard this one. Wasn't there a duck in it too?
To make an opinion is not easy to do when it relates to religion. Just turning sixty two this year my believes based mostly on Judeo-Christianity, with the current events encourages me to spend time to study the Islamic Quran. To say that conversion is my objective, no, but like anyone to discover the truth is a goal.
One thing jumps out in both religions, is, the way people think has just about as much corruption or the capability to corrupt. One sorry reality a majority live with in America today is the life that we thought is happiness and trust, that seems to disappear even when as we all grow up and work through with the most educated in our society. Even those college types who are loaded in our system. Causing the problem even though they where given the privilege to lead.
Then find out our very Government and corporate goodie two shoes screw system at every turn. I will not go into the details but I am one of those who sat before honest men that lied to me in my home loan and now have to work my way out. Those wonderful college educated trustful, nice, seemingly honest, deals as one signs those papers to say don’t worry about that. Ha, ha…now screwed because I trusted the other guy. Ya, risked my life in Vietnam to give that college guy the freedom to screw me.
Then America wonders why many go berserk to watch society increasingly fly apart. But, for me no matter how difficult it gets, when I pass to the next world, I asked God that I may be keeper of those souls for eternity God will cast away, and stand guard to watch that they never inter life again.
RueMorgue @ 66:
But Henotheists can, and there's every indication that's what the early Jews were.
liberalNmoderation @ 69:
Ha! First few times I heard Bush mutter this, I was damn sure he said tourists, and was wondering what the US was going to do without all that tourist revenue!!!
Nicole Belle @ 37:
yep. Well said.
Maybe someone has made this point--but no one takes the actual oath on anything (in Congress I mean). Ellison had himself photographed with the Koran, but the actual oath was taken at another time (with everyone else). Here's a link about that:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/01/03/AR200701...
As for Obama, he's not a Muslim--and besides, there are Christian Arabs, are they less Christian because of their names?
My school has a big muslim population and I have not had any of my friends say or do something that was inappropriate. My Muslim friends are actually more progressive than some of my Christian friends.
Always remember that the Ku Klux Klan used to not allow Catholics to join. They used religion in order to discriminate against Irish and Italian immigrants, which is exactly what the neo-cons are trying to do.
abob @ 6:
Watchin Faux Noose alot lately huh? Get this through your thick Neandertal skull, not all Muslim cities, villages, countries, etc...are ruled by Shia Law. Though I admit I don't know the percentages of those that are vs. those that aren't.
BTW...seems to me, if these bible-thumpin fundies in THIS country have their way, you, me, and everyone else would be living under a similar law. These Xtians would GLADLY regress to 7th century barbarism to keep the sheeple in line.
And for the record, I think ALL organized religion is inherently evil. Ok...maybe not Buddhism. But all the other major religions are just plain evil. If there is a deity in some fiery abyss, he's probably laughin his ass off, because the ones who claim to be "protecting" us clueless heathens from his eeeeevil ways, are actually doing his work for him.
Way to go.
Shadowgm @ 35:
Nicole, please note, Ellison swore to uphold the constitution. He posed with a Koran after the swearing in ceremony.
Old Billy @ 98:
Oops, Jcasey got it too - with a link. Now I feel all Bush league.
liberalNmoderation @ 97:
You forgot Taoism. Taoism isn't evil. ;)
97 liberalNmoderation
I think you meant to say Sharia law.
The Saudis (our allies) practice it and they're Sunni.
Old Billy @ 91:
Wearing spats.
100 navyswan Says:
You forgot Taoism. Taoism isn’t evil. ;)
______________________________________________________
There's been some comparison between Tao (pronounced Dao), any my religion, Wiccae.
Here's one of our sacred hymns:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6pOvnPdpNu0
ConcernedCanuck @ 93:
LOL! The first time I heard Bush speak, I wanted to scream...my relatives in Europe speak better english than our "fearless leader"...GAWD! I love this country, even when it's being destroyed by idiots. I do sometimes wish I lived somewhere else.
I get so disgusted with the continual trashing of Islam by Christians. As a counterpoint, I would recommend a book titled "The World's Sixteen Crucified Saviors" by Kersey Graves. It was written in the 1870s, and he does not appear to have a concept of scholarly citations, but his material is quite interesting. Two points caught my attention: First, the vast majority of Christian belief appears to be hand-me-down from other belief systems far older than Christianity; and second, at least through chapter 28, which is the last one I have completed, there is not one reference to Islam. Perhaps this is because Islam does not accept the concept of a "crucified savior" to save the world?
navyswan @ 100:
Ah dangit! Hinduism ain't evil neither! Or Bahai...or however ya spell it.
liberalNmoderation @ 104:
My 5 year old niece asked if he was "special" when she heard him speak on television for the first time. She was just taught about "special" people. Hahahahaha....THAT killed me! Then I thought...GOOD LORD 50 million Americans gave this retard the keys to the nukes!
Old Billy @ 91:
Wasn't this a show called Dukes of Hazzard?
Krackonis @ 19:
ysbaddaden @ 102:
All locked in the bathroom with a case of baby oil, a victorias secret catalogue, and a belt sander? Craaaaazy!
To all my leftie brethren and sisters - We can't get a handle on this idea and defuse it until we recognize the large kernel of truth in it. First polls about people's attitudes are a pretty bad indicator of what people are feeling, not only is the group of people who talk to pollsters self-selecting, but people lie to pollsters and what's more, they lie to themselves. A much better indicator of what the Muslim world is thinking is based on what the Muslim world does.We know that the Muslim world, or a section of it, has gone out in street demonstrations in support of suicide bombing and in reaction to perceived insults to their religion. There have been no demonstrations to decry the real desecration of Islam (if Islam indeed is a religion of peace): the use of suicide bombers, the purposeful (not accidental) attacks on civilian targets that characterize terrorism, or even the spectacle of sectarian strife. The fact that fundamentalist Christians, Jews, and Hindus have engaged in violence does nothing to negate the fact that religiously-motivated violence is a far bigger problem in the world at the moment from Islam. Why that might be is a much longer discussion but to deny that it's true just because it's coming from the propaganda chanel is to be suffering from a similar tendency toward confirmation bias. If anyone who feels differently can think of similar contemporary equivalents to the scandal of the Rushdie fatwa (39 dead), or the spectacle of chauvanist mobs eagerly rising to the bait of the Danish cartoons, or the even more ridiculous teddy bear incident, I'd be interested to hear them. Also because Fox news uses it as a propaganda point does not negate the fact that traditional Islam as it's practiced in many parts of the world assigns to half the human race the status of chattel and is hugely incompatible with Western concepts of human dignity and human rights. I know that there are fringe Christian groups who want to live by an even more barbaric Old Testament code of law but these are fringe groups - not major states like Saudi Arabia. And I'm not even going to bring up the nonsense going on in European countries that have done themselves enormous social damage by a too-naive ideologically-driven cultural relativism that has given them huge populations of that are hostile to modern values. As liberals we discredit ourselves to disregard the extremely active role illiberal ideas play in the Muslim faith as actively practiced today. You can be realistic about contemporary Islam without joining the Republicans or the BNP for that matter.
Leftie brothers and sisters know how to break a screed into paragraphs.
Show me the Christians denouncing the radical Christians? I have two friends I consider to be "true" Christians in that they actually try to be Christian all the time. As an aside, 99.9% of everybody who claims to "believe" in some religion is actually full of shit and just trying to not take shit from others in their society (or trying to profit from it in some way).
Anyway, one of these two friends says that these radical Christians (evangelists, Bush, etc.) make them all look bad and there's nothing they can do about it because the loudest, most controversial people are always in the news and the normal people aren't.
Wouldn't the same thing apply to Islam?
liberalNmoderation @ 112:
Close, it was an outhouse.
Dammit! Stupid computer!
ysbaddaden @ 114:
White space rocks!
Umm... is that racist? :)
Campy @ 111:
That's hazzarding a good guess.
ysbad @ 114
No kidding. My eyes! Myeyes!
Didn't they have a pig. Or was that Green Acres?
Fanon @ 121:
Guinea pig, but he would never join them in the outhouse; he was too busy flipping pizzas off.
CafeenMan @ 45:
Since Obama states that he is a Christian, I imagine it would be with the Bible.
Krackonis @ 20:
And written before they had ANY knowledge of science, and blamed or attributed everything they couldn't understand on some big, bearded deity in the sky.
ysbaddaden @ 119:
Drum roll please!!!
Shadowgm @ 123:
Would Romney use a Book of Mormon?
Would I use my testicles?
ysbaddaden @ 126:
Would McCain use a rubber glove?
I'd love to see some swearing an oath by grabbing their crotch
Someone besides Madonna.
Ignorance, thy name is BUSH.
Valentine Frey @ 113:
Nice. You make a blanket assertion, but offer nothing in the way of proof to separate your claim from those of the conservative fear parade.
You might want to consider that the concept of jihad was a legitimate and even necessary means for the faithful to reform Islam from within. That radical Islam has now become focused on externals, yet claims to be representing the truth is of greater concern than cherry-picked examples of violence.
Conservatives ask 'why aren't other Muslims speaking out'? Hmm. Perhaps because no one is engaging them in dialogue, diplomatic or otherwise? Even Iraq's parliament is viewed in terms of Sunni / Shiite / Kurdish factions, and our efforts included an active disenfranchisement of Ba'athist elements.
There's a line in the movie, "The Abyss," where the character of Lindsay comments on a Navy SEAL seeing the aliens as a Soviet threat.
"Coffey expects to see Russians, so he sees Russians," she says. "We have to see with better eyes than that."
Are there violent factions in Islam? Sure there are. Are they the monolithic threat to freedom we're constantly told to be afraid of, lest they take over our communities and governments? Only if we grant them that power.
Who speaks for Islam?
That's easy: the deluded.
And who speaks for Christianity?
The same deluded kind of people.
The real question should be:
How will the human population survive the idiocy of religion?
Actually a University of Maryland survey found Muslims and non US citizens are less tolerant of killing civilians than Americans. Sorry to burst the exceptionist bubble.
http://tenpercent.wordpress.com/2007/02/25/the-new-holocaust-denial/
Navyswan&65;
Interesting reading... Food for thought.. Not particularly tasty food.. But something to ponder nonetheless... Wonder what would happen if the vast unwashed ignorant and ignored masses of 'unpeople' somehow, someway suddenly rose up enmass and said 'Ah, hold up thar, just a goldarn minute Hoss, we all have jus about had enough of this shit".... Wonder what might happen in that unlikely scenario?....JD
RueMorgue@68;
Guess that makes me a pagan... Yet I do subscribe to a higher power and generally speaking, refer to it as God since that term is as good as any other to discribe the indescribable... Don't personally believe this higher power is mono-anything though. Go figure...Am I the only afflicted this way?.. You know, believe in something greater than we can perceive, yet don't and won't try to cram it down everyone elses throat? I'm just wondering on that last... regards; JD
One of the essential steps that cannot be skipped, if you are to undermine a free, liberal democracy and convert it into a toatalitarian police state, is a universal scapegoat. This is an absolute must-achieve action item. The hapless scapegoat becomes the distraction that focuses attention away from what is happening or being done to the People. The scapegoat is demonized and dehumanized, and used to justify the militarization of the state, is presented as the boogeyman of deepest nightmares for no other reason than to justify stripping away the liberties, freedoms and Human Rights of all citizens. By this route, citizens are manipulated into eagerly participating in their transformation from citizens into subjects. Hitler had his scapegoat, the Jews and other targets of opportunity. Stalin had his Trostkyites, Czeckists and other targets of opportunity. Bush and his neocon puppet masters have the Muslimsand are also zeroing in on brown-skinned "illegal" immigrants.
In the process of dehumanizing the scapegoat, everyone who buys into that enterprise also becomes gradually dehumanized. They become conditioned and habituated to inhumanity, brutality and sociopathy as the normal state of human affairs. As that process evolves, they become less in need of control, because they willingly conform to the agenda of the despots. they end being their own controllers. Per the plan.
If Obama wins, it's really going to fuck up the totaltiarian despot wannabes' reality.
jack damage @ 133:
True democracy? Maybe.
jack damage @ 133:
Hop Sing will come out to ring the bell for dinner.
jack damage @ 134:
Yeah it would be the height of personal embarrassment if one's deity had a sexually transmitted disease.
abob @ 6:
nowhere in the Quran will you find genital mutilation, burkas, beheading for fornication. Those things are based on backwards cultural values that pre-date islam- your views are based out of belief that the current "Muslim" governments in the world today actually practice Islam.
If the west wants better relations with the islamic world then what most muslims want isn't really an acknowledgement or respect for Islam- but for the west to stop INVADING their countries, propping up puppet governments and supporting corrupt tyrants.
Why aren't more americans complaining about all the foreign aid that goes to Saudia Arabia, Egypt, Israel, and Pakistan while our own standards of living gets worse each day.
This is no Bush-only policy either, its been going on for decades and its time it came to an end.
"If you think Christianity is evil; you know nothing about my life's work" _ Reverend Martin Luther King
Arrow @ 3:
ya... neocon hubris
Shadowgm @130
We're falling into black and white thinking. Fox News is like the fundamentalist Christian I met who was probably the most creepy paranoid and culty specimin that I've run into. Oddly he was at his most lucid pointing out everything that was creepy, culty and paranoid about the Krishnas, his previous sect.
Am I siding with him when I agree with his criticisms of the Krishnas? Am I siding with Fox when I agree with a lot of what they have to say about radical Islam?
As far as jihad goes, I'm aware of the prophet talking about the Greater Jihad - the struggle for self-mastery. I don't know of a major spiritual tradition that lacks something like that. Unfortunately the Lesser Jihad - killing the infidel - is still alive and well and very much with us. Yes Judaism and Christianity have their "Destroy Amalek" and their crusades. But both factions seem a little more marginalized within Western societies than the wahabis and violent jihadists seem in theirs.
As to why Muslims aren't speaking out, I'd say people didn't go out in the streets to protest because the conflict is seen in simple pre-modern my-tribe-against-your-tribe terms. And that means our values do differ on some fundamental levels.
Everywhere people go people want what's best for their children right? What could be more universal than that? But parents coming from outside the European enlightenment tradition (not just Muslims) are much more likely to think of what's best for their children in terms of their children as seen within the overarching structure of the family and the clan, which is why you get conflicts between Western-educated children trying to escape the arranged marriages their first generation immigrant parents want to force on them. These parents love their children but their value systems are in conflict.
The conflict between the West and Islam is similar. Most of the Islamic world maintains a pre-modern society and value system. There's no place for secularism and pluralism which means that if I insult Mohammed it's the same as an insult you, your family, your clan, and your country, not just your religion. There's no reason inherent within Islam that would prevent it from modernizing, but right now the conflict exists. It will change with the spread of secularism in Islam, and secularism unfortunately seems to be on the wane in the Islamic world.
And one reason it's on the wane is that those clever neo-conservatives assumed that everyone was just like Americans but with funny hats and that the Iraquis would be falling all over themselves to have a pluralistic democratic state. They were wrong. The modernization process in Islam is going to be complicated by the fact that so much of what is viewed as modern is easy to condemn as a Western import. I hope we can work it out, but that doesn't mean the conflict isn't there. And it is even if Fox says it is.
Sick, demented, primitive, savage Sharia laws of Islamic governments continue to rule the lives of a billion Muslims worldwide. Somehow, apologists of Islam continue to insist those oppressive Islamic laws and governments don't represent Islam.
Religion is how we teach children to be adults.
Darwi Odrade, from Chapterhouse Dune
Representing more than 90% of the world’s Muslim community, it makes this poll the largest, most comprehensive study of its kind.
A lot more than 50,000 need to speak up if there's ever going to be an end to Islamic fanaticism!
Asking respect for your particular religion is understandable but it gets confused often and is quickly used to silence dissenters or persecute critics. In comedy it would be silly to allow religions and the ideas and practices of it's diverse adherents a free pass, yet this is what some people want to outlaw.
In the end religion gets plenty of respect already from the perks of just being a religion, and thats not even considering their questionable tax-exempt status.
Shoaib Qadri @ 140:
The U.S. is giving direct aid to the Saudis? What's your source for that?
YS@ 183;
Heheheh good one YS....JD
[Deleted. Off topic-Sitemonitor]
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