Countdown: Dean Will Not Bend Delegate Rules For Michigan & Florida
NBC political analyst Chuck Todd appeared on Countdown Wednesday to talk about Democratic primary race and the situation with Michigan and Florida delegates. The Clinton campaign has been pushing for both states delegates to be seated and Senator Obama says he's played by the rules and will continue to do so. Keith Olbermann reads a statement from DNC chair, Howard Dean, who is finally making the call -- the rules will not be bent:
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"We're glad to hear that the Governors of Michigan and Florida are willing to lend their weight to help resolve this issue. As we've said all along, we strongly encourage the Michigan and Florida state parties to follow the rules, so today's public overtures are good news. The rules, which were agreed to by the full DNC including representatives from Florida and Michigan over 18 months ago, allow for two options. First, either state can choose to resubmit a plan and run a party process to select delegates to the convention; second, they can wait until this summer and appeal to the Convention Credentials Committee, which determines and resolves any outstanding questions about the seating of delegates. We look forward to receiving their proposals should they decide to submit new delegate selection plans and will review those plans at that time. The Democratic Nominee will be determined in accordance with party rules, and out of respect for the presidential campaigns and the states that did not violate party rules, we are not going to change the rules in the middle of the game.
"Through all the speculation, we should also remember the overwhelming enthusiasm and turnout that we have already seen, and respect the voters of the ten states who have yet to have their say.
"As we head towards November, our nominee must have the united support of a strong Democratic Party that's ready to fight and ready to beat John McCain. After seven years of Republican rule, I am confident that we will elect a Democratic president who will fight for America's families in the White House. Now we must hear from the voters in twelve states and territories who have yet to make their voices heard."
Dean is expected to make the rounds on the morning shows today to make this announcement. Voters from both Michigan and Florida want to have their votes counted. Let's hope both states can come up with a workable resolution with the DNC. The candidates need to know what the expectations are so the party can move forward with the primary process and on to the White House.
FOIST!!!
Come on Dems!!! RALLY! RALLY!!
Don't fuck it up now!!!
Obama's mom hates freedom.
[Deleted. You need to pay if you want to blatantly advertise-Sitemonitor]
I tell you, you can't change the rules once the race has begun. They were warned and did not heed the warning. Granholm is a Clinton supporter so, of course, she wants to seat the delegates the Hillary obtained with Barack Obama NOT EVEN ON THE BALLOT! How fair is that?! And, it's more than a little suspicious that a republican governor (Christ) wants to seat Fl delegates in the Democratic convention. Of course republicans want Clinton as the nominee. All of their oppo research and smear campaigns have been geared toward her for years and they don't want all of that work to go to waste. They don't have much on Obama and he has about the smallest negatives of any of those running. Sheesh, it's not rocket science.
[deleted - over the top. take it down a notch.]
I live in Florida and just for the record, our voting date was moved up by the majority republicans in Tallahassee. As a result, the repubs lost half their delegates and the dems lost all theirs. At this point I think we either re-vote or let things stand as they are. Hillary was down here for "fund raisers". None of the other democratic candidates were here at all. She came the closest to breaking the rules yet she is fighting the hardest to change them now.
I'm in Michigan and I'm pissed. Our county party petitioned for a change from that early date and we asked for a caucus. We all wondered what the game was, especially when Hillary didn't take her name off. It was this game playing that has be swayed my vote to Obama now.
In that primary we were told out votes didn't count. Many stayed home, many tried to think of ways to get their votes to Obama without going undecided, perhaps through Denis K or Chris D (but he dripped out), some recommended voting Republican to mess with them... how was this a true vote representation? Either we don't get counted or we do it over and do it right. This has left a very sour taste in MY mouth.
That statement was meant for Hillary cause she's the one who wants the Michigan and Florida delegates seated, even though they broke the rules and held their primaries when they weren't supposed to.
Play by the rules and charge it to the game since you're losing, Borg Queen. You can't get to the 4th quarter and decide to move the goalpost because you're losing and continuing to lose to Obama.
That net gain of 4 delegates was a big push. /snark
Things should stay as they are. NONE of the delegates should be seated.
They knew the rules when they moved their date. They should live with the consequences.
It's either too early or I'm too pissed to edit carefully the first time. ;) Corrections in bold. (Apologies to Chris Dodd... he doesn't drip.)
tunnelbrat @ 6:
ouch... too early in the morning to edit i guess.
There was too much fishy business going on. They should do as Dean says. The process becomes corrupted, otherwise.
I think that the votes should be counted, but it's not fair to let them be counted as they are now. The Democratic candidates agreed not to campaign in those two states (except for Hillary, who perhaps saw this mess coming). The fact that she campaigned there was a sleazy but crafty move on her part. FL and MI should do a caucus or something, a do-over! Then again, that just costs more money for both campaigns, while McCain focuses his funding on the big prize.
pissed off patricia @ 5:
And, over the weekend, Gov. Crist "misspoke" when he said he was all for a re-vote. Once the DNC told Crist that we taxpayers in FL would have to foot the bill, he balked.
I'm wondering if the state rethugs were in cahoots with the RNC when they voted to move up our primary date. If so, the DNC proved what suckers they are for deciding to disallow ALL delegates while the rethugs counted 1/2 of their delegates.
It's complete garbage to ask for those delegates to be counted. If the parties from those states truly wanted their votes to matter, they'd have followed the rules.
I will vote for Hillary if she gets the nomination, but she's making me feel less and less that I want to. This week when she said she brings a lifetime of experience to the table, John McCain brings a lifetime of experience to the table, and Obama brings a speech he made in 2002 to the table, it was just awful. So what, is she endorsing John McCain?
I'm starting to believe her scruples aren't a whole lot better than the republicans that are in office now.
FastMovingCloud @ 4:
You know my BIG problem with all of this crap? I, as a resident of Florida, have been manipulated again into a situation where my vote has either been negated, dismissed or just not counted. Virtually every election in Florida since 2000 has been fraudulent somewhere in the state, and usually over most of the state.
And here we go again. I don't care if Dems or Repugs did it, the fact is this: all the politicians think our votes are commodities for them to manipulate and I am sick of it.
I don't care which party engineered this, it's bullshit. And that line about, "They knew the party rules"? Excuse the fuck outta me, but does the party serve the public or the other way around? Nobody asked me, the voter, what I wanted here. My choice was to vote or not to vote. And if a state chooses to hold primaries when they choose, who the hell are a few die-hard members of the DNC, DLC, RNC, RSCC- whatever - to say our votes shouldn't count? They are political bodies, not legislative, not judicial, how can they argue that their rights to make rules of expediency that benefit their momentary political machinations supsercede my right to have my vote count - as long as my state holds the election in conformance with election law?
As long as the elections are held in compliance with election law - not party rules - the parties should submit to the law and count the votes. Period.
randy @ 13:
The dems in Tallahassee were outnumbered by the repubs and the repubs decided the date we would vote. By moving the date up, the repubs knew what would happen to the dems delegates. There wasn't a hell of a lot the dems could do about it.
roooth @ 15:
And here we go again. I don't care if Dems or Repugs did it, the fact is this: all the politicians think our votes are commodities for them to manipulate and I am sick of it.
That my friend may be the quote of the year...
pissed off patricia @ 14:
As Rachel Maddow said on "Countdown" the other night -- Hillary's comment was made by someone who was campaigning to be McCrazy's VP choice.
Why don't we hold new 2000 and 2004 elections while we're at it? Or get the Supreme Court to step in and make the decision about who the Democratic candidate will be?
There is now no WAY to hold new caucuses or primaries in Michigan and Florida so they'll turn out as they would have if they hadn't moved up the dates and disqualified their citizens' votes. IN the event of "new" caucuses/primaries, will they include ALL the candidates on the ballots who were running at the time? John Edwards could get a few more delegates, I dare say.
I know that Hillary did do some fundraising in Fla. but it must also be said that Obama bought TV ads to run nationally at the time and they ran in Fla. He says he had no control over that. I call BS on that. It could also be said that Obama has lower negatives but that could be because he is a neophyte and so far, everyone has refused to ask him any questions until just the other day and he blundered his way through them and left abruptly. This man is a politician - he does not have angel wings under that suit.
None of the Democratic candidates, except possibly Hillary made competitive efforts in these states since they were officially discounted from the primary process. For anyone to now turn around and say the few votes cast are legitimate toward selection of our next Democratic candidate is unfair to all Americans.
What were the original dates for the FL and MI primaries? Is it to late to allow those now go forward? Or reschedule so all (both) candidates have equal opportunity.
As long as the elections are held in compliance with election law - not party rules - the parties should submit to the law and count the votes. Period.
Ummm . . . horseshit.
Unfortunately for you, primaries are held by the respective parties (that's why they follow different rules, for example - with the Republican contests often being winner take all and the Dem ones usually allotted proportionally). If a state knowingly violates these rules and is told what the consequences will be and holds the election anyway (without the candidates campaigning in the state and the voters told repeatedly that their votes won't count), then no - those votes do not count. Sorry. Elect better representatives, or seek to change the system itself (which I readily admit is far from democratic - look at the superdelegates, for example).
But don't seek to change the RULES in the middle of the game because your candidate is losing. That's a real republican-type move.
Dr. Acula @ 18:
It wouldn't surprise me a bit if he and she did something like that. God, what a mess that would be. Rush would explode and make even a bigger mess.
Oh, and there's this:
Crist told CNN's "Late Edition" on Sunday that he supported holding another primary to resolve the dispute. But Wednesday, he said the state would not pay for a second contest.
The Florida Democratic Party estimates that a new primary could cost as much as $18 million -- and Sen. Bill Nelson said the DNC should pick up the tab.
"There's no way the state legislature is going to fund another election when they are in economic cardiac arrest right now," said Nelson, a Florida Democrat. "They are cutting payments to health care, education, social services and payments to the cities and counties.
"There's no way that they're going find an additional $18 million to fund another election, nor should they. This shouldn't be the burden of the taxpayers of Florida -- this should be the burden of the Democratic National Committee."
Party officials have said they will not pay for Florida to hold a new primary because they warned the state not to move up its primary.
"The Democratic nominee will be determined in accordance with party rules," Dean said. But he emphasized that his goal was to maintain party unity, and called the statement by Crist and Granholm "good news."
"We look forward to receiving their proposals, should they decide to submit new delegate selection plans, and will review those plans at that time," he said.
But Nelson said the party's stance was unfair, since it was Republican lawmakers in Tallahassee and a Republican governor, Crist, who decided to move up the state's primary over the opposition of Democrats.
And if the state's decision to move the primary remains controversial, it pales in comparison to a bill two Florida state senators are discussing. Sen. Nan Rich, a Clinton backer, is proposing that the state remove the party's eventual presidential nominee from the state's ballot unless it seats Florida's delegates.
I think it's up to the states to run their own primary, which they did even after the DNC said it would count, but they voted anyway just in case that they would count.. The canidates knew this was going on and they were on TV all this time and Florida and Michigan were watching... Obama was running national ads that were running in Florida, this was not accidental... The will of the people in those states has been spoken and they should be accepted by the DNC and the canidates and the people in other states have no authority to overturn the will of the people in Florida and Michigan... There was an extra high turn-out in both states which shows they took it serious at the time...
Unfortunately Rachael Maddow and Keith Olberman, two people I've admired so much, have fallen into line at MSNBC and now have their lips planted firmly on Obama's backside so I take anything they say now with a grain of salt.
The spin that Clinton was "endorsing" McCain is ludicrous. She made a statement of fact. McCain is perceived by many thanks to the spin on TV of being a maverick, a moderate and with a lifetime of experience. That is a true statement. Obama will have a tougher time against him in Nov. than Hillary IMHO.
One reason so many dems voted down here was there was an issue on the ballot whether or not to raise homestead exemption from 25 thousand to 50 thousand. A lot of Floridians wanted that to pass. I was not one of them.
Rules schmules, anything to win. Principles are for high schools.
pissed off patricia @ 14:
One thing the Clintons share with the Bushes is an acute understanding that winner takes all in our elections. And they will do what has to be done to win. Otherwise, why bother? I'm not saying its right, I'm just saying.
Last night I was watching Tweety and Timmuh, and the other increasingly irrelevant talking heads, actually saying that it will come back to haunt Hillary that she inferred McCain was more prepared than Obama.
How, they asked, could she argue for either him as her VP or her as his when she has said this? And I'm thinking, here we go again, another episode of "Short Attention Span Theatre". They have all apparently forgotten and therefore missed the obscene irony of Bush welcoming McCain to the White House and giving McCain his support.
Have they all forgotten the things Bush said and did to McCain in 2000? Now it's all sunny endorsements and whether or not McCain sould align himself with the floundering Bush. No note of the ugly slander of 2000's Rovian anti-McCain attacks. No mention of McCain's half-black love child or his wife's drug and alcohol problems. Slander worked, Bush won. McCain read the writing on the wall, swallowed his pride, left his family honor twisting in the wind and sucked up to Bush. In return, now it's all about how wonderful a president McCain will be. And no one in the media will rehash the ugliness used to stop McCain. Only winning mattered.
That's politics, and the Clinton's get it. And so does Obama. You don't learn sucessful grass-roots community organizing, as Obama did, without learning how to win the battles you need to win and keep working with the people who were trashing you yesterday.
It's only media chaff to fill airspace.
Bluesage
The ludicrous thing is that McCain has more Washington beltway "experience" than Hillary herself, so on the basis of "experience", he wins over Clinton.
VegasDem @ 11:
Get your facts staight...Hillary did NOT campaign in Florida or Michigan. Yes, she
did attend a "thank you" rally AFTER the election and in fact Obama also was in
Florida BEFORE the Primary, but neither of them "campaigned" because the DNC
prohibited such...
pissed off patricia @ 5:
I live in FL too, but Obama did have ads running on national cable & Internet, I saw a few run of CNN.
The rule sales NO CAMPAIGNING. Private fundraisers are not part of the DNC FL rule.
FL is the 4th state with the highest population in the nation. HOW can it be that our votes don't count? It's true that the Republican-dominated state congress moved up the date and we FL voters got the backlash for it - FROM OUR OWN PARTY! I don't understand why we have to be punished for something we FL Democrats had no control over.
Charlie Crist has even sugessted to put 10M of state money to redo a Democratic primary again, at the suggestion of FL Democratic party. I say LET'S DO IT!
Anney@24
And if the state’s decision to move the primary remains controversial, it pales in comparison to a bill two Florida state senators are discussing. Sen. Nan Rich, a Clinton backer, is proposing that the state remove the party’s eventual presidential nominee from the state’s ballot unless it seats Florida’s delegates.
What????????? That's one of the most insane things I've ever heard. The FL State House is a lunatic assylum!
pissed off patricia @ 23:
It isn't really too far fetched. There is the Repub Party, the Dem Party, and the Clinton Party. They are very good friends with McCain, offer him endorsements over Obama, and admit that they wouldn't go dirty if they ran against him. 'Nuff said.
Bluesage @ 26:
I totally agree with you. She did not endorse McCain whatsoever. She just made the statement that in terms of experience, she has a better chance than Obama against McCain.
SM @ 35:
She snarkily endorsed him over her inexperienced rival, and yes that is exactly what Republican supporters would take from her little dig.
pissed off patricia @ 27:
I did not vote for that, now Charlie Crist announced that $350 million will be cut from school funding thanks to that law. It was a bait & switch.
Shana,
They bought their tickets.
They knew what there were getting into.
I say, let them crash
SM @ 35:
Yes, and she will probably stick to that speech for the rest of the campaign. Ironic, no?
SM @ 37:
Most of us knew the state was already in financial trouble but a lot of Florida homeowners allowed greed to overcome their good sense.
POP
Is it possible that people voted on the homestead exemption law but didn't vote for a Democratic presidential candidate at all because they thought it wouldn't matter anyway?
Is this FISA?
WASHINGTON (AP) - The FBI acknowledged Wednesday it improperly accessed Americans' telephone records, credit reports and Internet traffic in 2006, the fourth straight year of privacy abuses resulting from investigations aimed at tracking terrorists and spies.
The breach occurred before the FBI enacted broad new reforms in March 2007 to prevent future lapses, FBI Director Robert Mueller said. And it was caused, in part, by banks, telecommunication companies and other private businesses giving the FBI more personal client data than was requested.
Testifying at a Senate Judiciary Committee hearing, Mueller raised the issue of the FBI's controversial use of so-called national security letters in reference to an upcoming report on the topic by the Justice Department's inspector general.
An audit by the inspector general last year found the FBI demanded personal records without official authorization or otherwise collected more data than allowed in dozens of cases between 2003 and 2005. Additionally, last year's audit found that the FBI had underreported to Congress how many national security letters were requested by more than 4,600.
anney @ 41:
Sure, it's very possible. I did vote for a candidate, but I'm sure there might have been others who did not. If I recall, independents could only vote for the homestead exemption and they received a ballot with no candidates name on it.
Concerned Canuck - I respectfully disagree. Don't fall for all the spin and ask yourself why she would "endorse" McCrazy. She would not and did not. I'm not normally one who thinks conspiracy but it's getting really hard to understand why so many of the pundits seem to be doing Obama's bidding with their spin. Just like the race-baiting, much of which has come directly from the Obama camp and then the spinning starts and they have taken two people that no one has ever considered racist and made them racist. It's deplorable. And I have trouble understanding why 90% of black people are voting for Obama and yet no one speaks of that as a race issue. My heart was broken when John Lewis, another person I've always admired greatly, caved and changed his vote to Obama. Many of the black super delegates are saying that they have been badgered and threatened to get them to change their vote but this is not a story anyone seems to want to touch in spin world. I really hate all the division and much of this I lay at Obama's feet. His wife Michelle says many things that could be considered race-baiting but no one calls her on that either. There is a double standard here and it's wrong.
pissed off patricia @ 40:
Whoops, I misplaced my post.
This state is STILL a national laughing stock. It’s sad. The whole property tax reform issue was, IMHO, bullsh*t. During the heydey of rising real estate values here, municipalities were running HUGE budget surpluses. Where did all that money go??? Why is this state in such a fiscal mess? Could it be our former governor Jebbie?
I am a Michigan voter and I am pissed! Its not the voters fault the primary was moved up; its the govenors fault! So dock her a years pay but don't punish us for crying out loud............no it shouldn't be a given for Hillary either. Michigan of all places should have a say in this election; look what our federal government has done to our jobs just in the last 4 years? We have been punished for having a democrat in office and so have alot of workers here who are now out of jobs. You count all states and do it over so the whole population has a say.Thats what a free election is!
You don't have to be in Florida to campaingn in Florida, they don't live in caves... I live in Texas and I made up my mind long before the canidates got here...
ConcernedCanuck @ 36:
She did not! People are reading into this too much. It wasn't like she said that she'd vote for McCain if Obama was the candidate. She pointed out the truth.
McCain is definitely more experienced than Obama and that is one of the things Obama supporters have to eat bitterly. Obama is a toddler in pull-ups compared to McCain's military experience & 20+ years in the senate. At least Hillary can chip away at some of McCain's legacy with her experience and senatorial career somewhat.
Obama's strength is the ability to inspire the change needed in Washington. That's wonderful and great but when you throw that against a POW, military veteran with 20+ years in the US senate, it looks substantially weak.
Another thing is that Obama is more of a lover not a fighter. He fumbles and stumbles and falls apart when thrown difficult questions and controversy. Same with John Kerry, who mirrors McCain's experience, if not more, and look what they did to him! Kerry fumbled and stmbled with the Swift-Boat thing and should have been just as irate and angry as Hillary was when Obama's campaign put out the Harry & Louise part 2 ads in Ohio.
Hillary's pitting him against the wall for his experience, is NOTHING compared to what the Republicans have already started on him. I have do doubt in my mind that Hillary will rip John McCain apart and will be able to withstand and fight back anything they throw at her, kitchen sink, bathtub, china cabniets, whatever.
You Hillary haters are pathetic. If the situation was reversed you'd be yelling for the delegates to be seated and blaming it all on Hillary.
Rules or no rules, Mich and Fla held their primaries and the people voted. Not allowing their votes to count is another breach of confidence in our electorial system.
The DNC needs to find some other way to penalize the states and not the people.
Floridh proved worthless a long, long time ago. If we ignore them, maybe they'll just go away.
It isn't the people of Florida with the problem; it's the government of Florida that's totally invested in controlling the voters, even to the extent of committing voter fraud.
pissed off patricia @ 40:
I argued with my dad about this who voted yes on 1, I told him that the majority of people benefitting from the new law will enjoy it for a few years before they drop dead, yet FL students will have to live with the lifetime of an underfunded education, namely his grandchildren. He didn't care at all.
It will not go much farther, this is the latest news.
Clinton scrambles to freeze defectors
By: Mike Allen and Ben Smith
Mar 4, 2008 07:29 PM EST
A behind-the-scenes battle broke out late Tuesday over superdelegates who had secretly committed to Sen. Barack Obama (D-Ill.), with Clinton campaign officials scrambling to “freeze” them before they announced support for him.
The battle reflects the trench warfare that both campaigns expect if the battle for the Democratic presidential nomination stretches on to the Pennsylvania primary on April 22.
Democratic officials involved in the conversations said Obama was lining up a package of superdelegates — the party insiders whose votes help select the Democratic nominee — with plans to announce their support as a bloc.
Obama also plans to announce he raised more than $50 million in February, considerably more than Clinton’s $35 million.
The Obama theory was that the separate announcements would convey juggernaut-like momentum if Obama had big wins on Tuesday, and would help turn the page if he had a disappointing showing in the Texas or Ohio primaries.
But aides to Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton (D-N.Y.) became convinced by network exit polls and her own data that she would have a stronger-than-expected showing. So they immediately began urging Obama’s prospective superdelegates to withhold their support.
An Obama aide said: "Despite last-minute Clinton pranks, the rumor they're floating about a massive superdelegate rollout tomorrow is not true."
One Democratic lawmaker described “pushback” from the Clinton campaign but did not elaborate.
A senior Clinton aide said her supporters were scrambling to "freeze" members of Congress on the verge of announcing for Obama, and said a good night for Clinton would be key to forestalling the move.
The Obama campaign had an extensive “whip” organization set up to track and woo these officials, including members of Congress.
“We’ll wake up tomorrow and we’ll see where folks are,” an Obama aide said. “We have new support every single day.”
Obama forces responded to the Clinton overtures by telling superdelegates that regardless of Tuesday’s outcome, Obama would retain the lead in elected delegates.
An Obama official said his campaign plans to argue that even if she scored one or more victories on Tuesday, it would be “virtually impossible” for her to catch up in the delegate count.
An Obama statement said: “Three weeks ago, when they led polls in Texas and Ohio by 20 points, the Clinton campaign set their own test for today's primaries. They confidently predicted that they would win by landslide margins and wipe out the substantial edge Barack Obama has built in pledged delegates.
“But what we've seen is that voters in Ohio, Texas, Vermont and Rhode Island share the same urgent desire for change we have seen throughout the country. That's why we're confident that Barack Obama will maintain his delegate lead, leaving the Clinton campaign to explain why they failed their own test and exactly how they plan to win a nomination that, after tonight, will be virtually out of reach.”
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0308/8838.html
Bluesage @ 44:
Yes indeed, it is also very hard to understand why the English language and our own ears are so biased against Hillary. Damn the people who came up with this language and the evolutionary methods that gave us our ability to transmit information in the form of sound waves.
After all, we should always believe you and not our lying ears and comprehension skills. When Hillary praised her republican opponent and dished her own party fellow in the same breath. She was in no way, shape, or form doing that. Right?
Idiots....
Sailor Art Thomas, Jr. @ 51:
Thank you for that kind remark. I'm sure everyone who lives here in Florida appreciates your compassion and understanding.
buzz @ 50:
Projection is a very dangerous game.
Hello Patricia!!
It seems so obvious to me. If the states will not pay for a new election then there will have to be caucuses. The primaries that were held cannot stand. It would be equally unfair to the voters who didn’t vote as to the voters who did vote if they seat the delegates as they stand. Instead of arguing about whether these results should stand a tsunami of public opinion should overwhelm theses states for a fair election or caucuses. And soon. These states could and will decide the candidate for the DemocratIC party if they look forward and don’t stop arguing about the past.
Bluesage @ 26:
It sounds to me sir, that you will let anything come out of Hillerys mouth, and not question her motives.
If Obama is such an easy win for RePUGs in the elections, how come Rush-bo and a few other folks in Neocon Radio wanted rank and File RePUGs to vote for Hilliary in Ohio?
Before you make pronouncements about Oberman and Maddox, perhaps you should pull your head back out, so you can see better.
buzz @ 50:
You don't have a clue what you're talking about. FL and MI knew the rules before they changed the dates and did it anyway. They took the risk---and lost. And now Hillary wants to change the rules ex post facto because she benefits from it. As Dean said, he isn't changing the rules now. The rules apply to everyone equally, including Hillary.
Good for Dean! If Michigan and Florida politicos can get their act together, then they should re-submit plans. I agree the voters there have a right to be counted in a fair election, which plays by the rules.
Off-topic: But one of Clinton's strategies has been to repeatedly tie a Chicago defendant, Tony Rezko, to Obama. Only the Clinton's and their supporters have also received Rezko or Rezko-tied monies.
From Margie Burns [also more at TPM Election Central]:
pissed off patricia @ 43:
If independant were offered ballots with no candidates name on it and the democrats were told that their votes wouldn't count, the democrats should have been given a ballot with no candidates names on it. I would say the situation is being manipulated. I thought Kathrine Harris was out of office.
"After seven years of Republican rule, I am confident that we will elect a Democratic president who will fight for America’s families in the White House."
I also hope that the Democratic president will not fight only for America's families but for all American citizens and especially protect the Constitution that this Congress has trampled like garbage.
The Dude @ 57:
So Dude, can I call you Dude/
How dangerous is projection? and do you think that with your statement you are projecting yourself?
Don't you think that there are lots of Citizens who wish to vote for some person who doesn't fly to different extremes every day, unlike Hillary?
SM @ 49:
The funny thing is that all that "experience" talk by Hillary is utter nonsense. For starters, "experience" is a neutral concept. It is neither good nor bad. For example, an old crackwhore and a nobel price are both very experienced people. It is the context of their experiences that makes the difference. And if we are going to review Hillary's voting record... we can see that her "experience" is not really that good.
Ironically, if she ends up being the Dem nominee, the GOP will be able to neutralize her "experience" claims in 2 seconds flat. All that will happen is that McInsane will run an ad with Hillary endorsing him saying how he is "experienced." And then they will frame her "experience" with the actual real term for what this greedy idiot is trying to make us forget: she does not have "experience" she has "baggage."
So those of you so concerned with poor Obama being fed to the GOP wolfs. Be careful with your own advice. Because Hillary is much, much, much weaker... no matter how many hissy fits she throws at her fellow Dem opponents.
Because, at the end of the day... would any of you care to tell me where was that fire in her belly during her past 2 terms in the senate. I guess her experience is to kiss Bush's ass, and throw a temper tantrum at her fellow Dem.
I don't particularly care about that "experience" that much... But I guess that for tastes there are colors....
I, like others hear will vote for the Dem candidate. Hill or Obama. They are both too far right for my liking but so it goes. Neither one could fuck up this country as much as Bush has. Nobody could. Well , if McCain gets elected all bets are off. He is as capable as Bush it looks like.
Captain Kangaroo @ 58:
Hello right back at cha!
Funny thing is, I don't hear democrats down here talking about the election and what should or didn't happen. The only place I hear about it is on the national news. I think most people here in Florida have accepted what happen and are ready to vote in November.
natisman @ 64:
I recommend you read up on what projection is...
Regarding experience: In the last few days, Hillary has repeatedly acknowledged that McCain has more experience than her or Obama. Way to go Hillary!
If they have a caucus or another election what is to prevent Michigan or Florida from electing a "favorite son/daughter" (possibly Levin or Nelson or Gore) and let them go to Denver and make deals to help the folks in their state. Or do you have an election and tell the voters they can ONLY choose between Hil and Barack?
Ron
Apparently Patricia's right. Below is an account of an Independent Florida voter who apparently didn't know he would not be allowed to vote for a presidential candidate, though it was a touch-screen, not a ballot:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/chip-hansen/crashing-the-florida-part_b_84...
Ron @ 62:
POP or others in Florida...Please educate/inform me as to your Primary. Was ONLY
Hillary's name on the Dem. ballot? As I recall, she received in excess of 840,000 votes.
And, as I recall, Obama received something like 500,000. Did the Dem ballot have a
place for a write-in or how is it that Obama received substantial votes if his name was
not on the ballot? Just asking for informational purposes. Thanks...
Captain Kangaroo @ 58:
Charlie Crist announced that he will authorize 10M for a new Democratic Primary.
BTW, FL is in a better position than MI, because all 7-8 Democratic runners were listed. NO CAUCUSES, because caucuses don't represent the overall population. Most rank & file voters don't even understand them, hell I know I still don't get it.
anney @ 71:
Actually, where I vote, we do have ballots. And in the short time it took me to vote, several independent voters were pissing mad that they could not vote for a candidate. They had not been aware of this before the came to vote.
SM @ 73:
See my post @73. Maybe I am getting Florida confused w/Michigan. That is, was
Hillary Clinton the only Dem on the Michigan ballot?
Dr. Acula @ 33:
I was thinking more of a preschool myself. If you don't play by my rules, I'll take my toys and go home. And hold my breath until I'm blue!
Doggiebobo @ 72:
All the dem candidates names were on our ballot, even the ones who had already dropped out.
imagine telling the voters their vote doesn't count? exactly what about that is fair or funny? The state decides when to hold their primary, and the national committee says no?
we don't need the two parties we have. They are worthless and just as willing to disenfranchise their own "members" sad and pathetic Howard. You have crap on your hands and seem to missing your hankie. Talk to Rahm, you have a lot in common.
It's vote green or die. It seems the people that run the show are beyond help now. They haven't a clue as to what the people of this country want. It has never been more clear.
Oh man....Howard Dean, Florida....McBush....its a deja vu nightmare 2000.
Lets be realistic, regardless of who you support, if one candidate has the pledged delegate lead at the end of the contest and they are not the nominee, then the Democratic electorate will be divided and John McCain will by in the Fall by at least 5 points.
How can the party that had a election stolen from them in 2000, have another election stolen within its own primary contest?
Also, I think guys like Howard Dean see the big picture and understand that the increased voter turnout is primarily due to people taking part in the Democratic primary who are NOT Democratic loyalists. These people will have no problem sitting at home in November or voting for John McCain if they feel like the Democratic party is just as self-serving as the Republican party.
I don't like Republicans, but I don't respect diehard Democrats because every year they say "It's the economy stupid!" but fail to realize that "It's electability stupid!". All of your platforms and policies don't mean a thing if you don't win office.
Republicans understand that concept, Democrats do not. The media is hyping up the "Seven Week War" to Pennsylvania. The losers will be the Democratic Party again because it's going to divide the Democratic electorate with all of the heated debates and negative arguments. And John McCain will have all day to raise money and unite his party against both candidates.
I read on other boards when Republicans call Democrats..."Dummycrats". Now I see what they mean..
StirFry @ 79:
Yeah, I bet a lot of us are thinking the same.."Oh no, Not Florida again" as to
deciding the outcome...and surely "Not again", the Supreme Court in making
a decision as to winner.
*John McCain will win in the Fall
I cannot wait for this election to be over. People are over analyzing so much nonsense. I am getting the impression that some pundits and bloggers are getting paid to beef up their candidate at all costs. Example: the 60 minutes BS, the "darkening" of an ad BS, the 3am commercial that doesn't even mention Obama. Now, people are making up crap about Florida. My friends live there and said no one campaigned , there. They only saw Obama ads on Cable. Hillary went to Florida after the results came in. Now, do we want to punish the American people in Mich anf FL? None of this was their fault. Howard Dean, Donna Brazile and the DNC screwed up with their inconsistencies and BS and now they are desperately trying to weasel out of it. Let's have a re vote and give these people, who are faultless, the chance to vote. Other states moved their dates but they were not penalized. This is a sham and we go to other countries to monitor their elections???
Doggiebobo @ 72:
The Dem candidates' names were on the electronic ballot down here. I voted for Edwards.
chuck @ 22:
your missing my point - it isn't about "my" candidate, it's about MY VOTE.
You say, "If a state knowingly violates these rules and is told what the consequences will be and holds the election anyway (without the candidates campaigning in the state and the voters told repeatedly that their votes won't count), then no - those votes do not count."
Let's look at that:
1. If a state knowingly violates party rules?????WTF?? Who runs elections, state and federal law or political parties? This is what I'm talking about. I might not like my elected officials, (and in FL, by and large, I don't), but I have even less say about Party officials. Why should my right to have my vote counted be dictated by a party hack?
2. "and is told what the consequences will be and holds the election anyway " Excuse me, but your arguement seems to be that a political party can dictate to a state and disenfranchise voters. My only recourse in this instance, according to you, would have been not to vote. That is unacceptable. Parties, thank God, do not run the elections. Nor should they, and this, like Tom Delay's corrupt political redistricting of Texas, is a perfect example of why.
At every step in this debacle, the voters and their votes were put last, by everyone. This is the DLC's biggest problem right now. They have such a grandiose sense of entitlement that they really believe they should be able to supercede the state and the people.
But ask yourself this: who puts on the elections? State, or Party? Elections are held by the governing bodies, not the political parties. The states supply the ballots, the voting places, the entire infrastructure, and they are obligated to comply with election law.
If you allow political parties to take over any of those functions, what law are they held to? None, which is why they could cavalierly threaten not to count or abide by the will of the voters. Forget about the sheer arrogance of this, it implies that we can be disenfranchised at will, for political manuevering.
This was two arrogant groups - The Democratic Party leaders and the FL Legislature, playing chicken with our votes. But it didn't have to happen. The Party could have said, we don't like it, but the voters come first and all votes should be counted. But they didn't. They chose not to. Instead they chose to threaten and play chicken, and, worst of all, they chose to hold our votes hostage to their political needs. That is horseshit.
No one forced the candidates to go along with this, they had a choice to show their allegiance to Party or Voter, and they did. We need to let these votes count. How many voters should lose their vote because a candidate chose to forgo campagining because he put Party above Voters? None. Not one single person should lose their vote because of that.
I had no choice. No one gave me - a voter - a viable choice in which my vote could be counted. No one. This, in effect, disenfranchised me and every other voter simply because the majority Republicans in the FL Legislature dictated this change and the Democrats in charge of the National Party - none of whom are elected representatives of my state government and none of whom should have any say about counting my vote - dictated that they wouldn't play under those conditions and therefore, the voters lose their voice.
What arrogance. And it is completely unacceptable.
grand Marnier @ 83:
Hear, hear...you nailed it !!!
Doggiebobo @ 72:
All 8 of them were listed, no write in space. Here is a link to the ballot for Hillsbourough County. Click on Democratic party. It's a PDF file.
I STRONGLY BELIEVE IN NO CAUCUSING. It should be a closed primaries across the board. Screw the Independents/swing voters - yeah sorry for the offense, but y'all can come up with your own candidate instead.
I wonder whether I am missing something. I live in Florida, and thought it was remarkably pathetic when they voted to move the primaries up. I thought it was a grab for funding - that the pols thought that some more of the $1 billion about to be spent on the Presidential campaign ought to be thrown in to our coffers down here, rather than in the backwoods coffers of Iowa and New Hampshire.
I thought (and still think) it was just greed. And the stated reason - that it seemed more appropriate for us to have some greater say in who the final nominees are? I think if the Michigan and Florida primaries were held tomorrow, that they would probably decide the matter entirely. Why is no one exploiting this point?
If we are able to hold another ballot here before the convention, then the delegates should be seated. But the fact that Mrs. Clinton is attempting to seat her delegates from a sham election in which her biggest rival WAS NOT EVEN ON THE BALLOT is just reprehensible.
I will vote for her if she is the nominee, because the thought of another Republican administration after this one makes me sick, but only mildly more so than this behavior from her and her campaign. And on the off chance that you are reading this, please, Mrs. Clinton, please get rid of Mark Penn and his ilk.
Dr. Acula @ 84:
Again, if independants weren't allowed to vote for a candidate, Neither should the dems. The media knew that the votes wouldn't count. The Ballots should have only information on them that counts.
roooth @ 85:
As with grand Mariner @83, you have hit the nail on the head. The voter is being deprived of his/her right.
Bystander @ 25:
I live in Michigan.
If Hillary wins the nomination due to abusing the system and stealing the Michigan delegates, it's time for a new party.
SM @ 37:
I voted against it too. Now they'll try and privatize the schools even more. I'm sure there's some no-bid contract for Neil Bush in there somewhere.....
Let's hope the DNC learns from all these mistakes and makes primaries consistent throught the country. It should be a national primary, one person, one vote in a closed primary. This was the most undemocratic sham and a shame of a primary. No consistency and too dragged out. Read the foreign press. So many around the world are laughing at us!
nick @ 88:
Then by your statement, FL should be seated since voters were given all 8 candidates. Michigan should hold a brand new primary with everybody on it.
If we are able to hold another ballot here before the convention, then the delegates should be seated. But the fact that Mrs. Clinton is attempting to seat her delegates from a sham election in which her biggest rival WAS NOT EVEN ON THE BALLOT is just reprehensible.
She was NOT the only one on the ballot. I know, I voted for someone else.
Slaw @ 91:
So would you, as a Michigan registered voter, be agreeable to voting in another
election should one be legally authorized?
You Hillary people are loking for any case or excuse to exploit the situation and then say it's fair. Check out the latest from Howard Dean. To new voters: Don't be fooled. The Fix is In. The loser candidate(Hillary Clinton) will be the nominee.
Here is the FL Sample ballot, sorry for the screw up!
roooth @ 85:
It is unacceptable, but the state parties of MI and FL are the ones responsible here in their egotistic stampede to be kingmaker. These people knew they risked not having their delegates count by violating the rules, they went forward anyway and lost. Dean and the DNC rightly said that they won't change the rules ex post facto. You should address your concerns to your state party, I agree that they made the voters pay unnecessarily.
Sheesh I can't get this right! Sorry!
FLORIDA SAMPLE BALLOT (cut & paste into browser address):
http://www.votehillsborough.org/content.aspx?id=267&s=175
roooth @ 15:
As a resident of Floriduh,I agree completely. It seems to be the trend lately where the voter is a comodity to be exploited. The pols forget who works for whom.
Democrats just lost the general - in years that feature a divided convention, democrats have lost the general.
President John 'Kill em ...... Kill em all' McCain.
At least Amato will have material for his career as a webmonger.
bmw 528 @ 99:
Not in Florida's case. The FL Congress moved up the primary dates to vote on the Homestead Law. The party chiefs had zero influence. Yet we FL voters get punished for it.
SM @ 100:
Many thanks...appreciate your deligence in sharing.
bmw 528 @ 60:
This isn't about Hillary or Obama or the DNC or the govs of MI and Fl. It's about the people who voted in good faith having the votes negated once again. If you want rules then rule #1 must be, all casted votes must be counted and included and not subject to penalization due do conditions beyond the voter's control. Is that democratic concept to much to wrap your head around?
Iraqis votes counted in their election more than mine did in ours.
Kinda something to think about, huh?
Just Redo them and get it over with.
anon @ 102:
Anon, your back. How did the lobotomy go? You should try to take it easy for awhile. The brain is a delicate thing. Get well soon.
anney @ 52:
Democrats in Florida truly suffered from the Tyranny of the Majority in this election season (kinda like 2000). The Republican governor and Republican legislature moved the primary up in violation of the DNC rules. It seems to me if the state majority can legislate the minority into utter irrelevancy, there ought to be legal protection for the minority party on a national level.
If Hillary is trying to change the rules before she has the presidency, what is she going to do when she gets in office? At least Barack is abiding by the rules. I think this is a terrible sign of things to come if she is voted president. Vote Barack!
roooth @ 95:
That's true. Gavel, Kucinich, & Dodd were on the ballot along with Clinton, but Edwards and Obama withdrew their names in compliance with the national Democratic ruling. Here's how it happened.
I think Michigan has a larger ethical "party problem" about this primary business than Florida. Florida Democrats really were forced into the earlier primary by a state Republican move. But Michigan DEMOCRATS moved the Michigan primary up.
But I suppose one can't be fixed without the other being fixed.
SM @ 94:
Not so much - I was merely pointing out that the MI circumtance, and her subsequent position on seating those delegates, is more reprehensible. My phrasing was unclear, though, thanks for pointing that out.
I find the Florida circumstance just as untenable, if not quite as obviously ethically dubious, given this thought - does anyone think that Senator Clinton would even mention Florida's (or Michigan's) delegates had she LOST in those "primaries"? I do not, for one millisecond, believe that she has an iota of caring for the responsibilities of the party to the democratic process. She is trying to game the system, plain and simple.
I think the whole thing is fakachta - but I don't see why that is a reason to throw votes to the candidate with the largest pre campaign name recognition.
And I am sorry for those of you who would cry "foul" over being asked to comply with the party rules - the party controls its selection process. The general election is when you get to complain about being disenfranchised.
Irregardless of whom you are supporting, it is undemocratic to disenfranchise the voters. This is Soviet style election and many of you should be embarassed. You should be fighting for a re vote, for the people, not for your candidate! If not, you are another hypocrit who claims to be different from the Repugs. I do not recognize my country anymore!
buzz @ 105:
THANK YOU BUZZ!
If you look at the link that I provided (the one that works!) you can see right underneath the Homestead Law. THIS was the true culprit, this is why FL was moved up a week, because FL Republican controlled congress wanted to get this new Homestead law passed before February 2008 rolled in, which effectively took out 350 million dollars out of the FL school system.
pissed off patricia @ 106:
Yes, and when thinking about the comparision, I get really, really sad. Maybe
the "purple thumb" is a better way to go..
Pawn @ 110:
Get a life...and you might want to also get some facts before spouting off.
I don't know why I bothered voting in the so-called Floriduh primary, knowing as I did that my vote wouldn't count.
Why is the DNC punishing registered Democrats?????
I'm not a fan of posting entire articles or links into blogs....but I think this is a MUST READ for everyone with any interest in the Democratic Primary.
Basically, if you are a Hillary supporter, it challenges you to provide ANY SCENARIO where Hillary Clinton can win the nomination without destorying the Democratic electorate in the process.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rj-eskow/democrats-no-good-scena_b_90160.html
Bluesage @ 44:
This hasn't nothing to do with spin. She said it, and it was taped. That isn't spin, that is reality. I don't listen to any of the crap about race at all, just as I don't listen to people like Taylor Marsh who think you should vote for Hillary because she's female. That is absurd.
the only thing that makes sense is a do over caucus/primary for both states with a one month run up before the vote to allow both candidates the time to campaign. in that manner the delegates would reflect the campaign at its present time and not as it was months ago. also the states voters would not be disenfranchised.
because my candidate, John Edwards, did not win the primary
i urge ALL democrats who did not get their first choice to win the primary to stay home Nov 4
i for one will be face down on the carpet kicking my legs and crying... if i don't get my first choice then i quit... i'm grabbing my balls and going home
is anybody picking up what i am laying down... because i am laying it down PRETTY THICK
What a bunch of CRYBABIES... both sides... accomplishing what ONLY THE GOP could pray for... cutting the number of Democrat voters in half, and allowing the "machine shaving" to push the last 5 % difference into a MEDIA CONTROLLED announcement that.... the DEMS did self destruct and that President McCain will be answering that 3a.m. call, when his military announces to him that they have successfully taken Iran.
WHAT A BUNCH OF CRYING DOLTS!!!
PLEASE STOP FOR A MOMENT AND TAKE THIS PLEDGE... GO AHEAD... NOBODY IS WATCHING...
"i" state your name "promise to support WHOEVER is the Democrat nominee, because I am smart enough to see that the STINKING GOP MEDIA is having a great time setting us against each other"
and remember to vote November 4.... because of the HIGH amount of Democrats expected, Republicans are encouraged to vote on November 5.
nick @ 112:
Obama has his FL delegates despite the fact he did not win the majority, they should be seated, just as much as Edwards', Kucinich's, and everybody elses.
Bottom line: FL Congress moved up the date to pass the Homestead law, did not want to pay extra for another voting cycle, tacked on the Amendment and FORCED the Jan. 29 date. This had nothing to do with FL Dem party wanting to play kingmaker or anything of the sort. Look at the ballot, it's right underneath the candidate listing.
SM @ 49:
I would think there would be little in Obama's "closet" when compared to years of Clinton questionable conduct. True or not, THAT is what sticks. Do you people really want to go through that crap again? Why? I can hear the spin now....
"It's 3AM, do you know where Bill Clinton is....."
"It's 3AM and the red phone rings, Hillary Clintons lesbian lover Huma Abedin picks it up.."
"Stan Lee Media Sues Clintons"
"Clintons in latest questionable fundraising...did they break the law?"
"Hillary's tax returns...anybody see them?"
That will go on for months. That won't influence voters? Hell, Obama could be a gay, coke addicted, KKK Muslim with a bomb strapped to his chest and he will not get the media "spins" that will be put on the Clinton Party.
Al Gore, where the hell are you? Jump in and send both these senators back to Warshington.
sassafra @ 120:
Please no caucus. It's fundamentally biased and too much of a mess. Closed primaries are the fairest and cleanest way to go.
Disenfranchising 5 MILLION voters----Genius. President McCain will have a good laugh, when he looks back on it.
buzz @ 105:
This isn't a disenfranchisement issue, it's a fairness issue. The rules can't be changed after the fact because it suits your personal interest. Sorry you don't like the rules, but what is, is. As I said before, the state parties knew what would happen, changed the rules anyway, and lost out. The voters in FL and MI are the ultimate losers because of their state parties egotism.
Your argument does not address the real issue here. It is a DNC issue. If you have a problem with fairness and selfishly believe that rules apply to all but you, vote Republican.
BDC
It would be unwise of the Democrats to refuse to take notice of what's going on and its effects. Maybe far less so if they counted only on Democratic voters, but Independent voters comprise a large chunk of the voters, and they have no party affiliation or loyalty. I doubt very much that they'll vote for the "other" Democrat if their preferred Democratic candidate is trashed by the other Democratic candidate and loses on that basis.
Just something to remain aware of. What's going on now and its effects on the ultimate candidate AND the election matter very much.
The Dude @ 68:
So Mr. Dude, I'll let you go on about your idea of what Projection is, but I gotta tell you that Random House just called me up and asked me if they could utilize your projection in their next dictionary.
Big Dick Cheney @ 121:
I'm with you...we do not need this inmature/childness kind of deviousness within
our Party.
Big Dick Cheney @ 121:
Ahhh! Tricky Dick, your trying to get people to focus on the real prize. You're so clever.
[deleted - knock it off. Sitemonitor]
bmw 528 @ 126:
18 months ago, the DNC did not foresee a Republican controlled FL State congress moving up the date to tack on a vote for an amendment that will take out 350M dollars out of the FL school system. They wanted that law passed before Feb 2008. The Republican controlled FL congress changed the date, not the FL Dem party.
The FL Dem party had no control over the date change. This was a Rethug move which now the DNC wants to punish us for. NOW THAT is what's not FAIR.
Doggiebobo @ 129:
A-fu*king-men!
anon @ 131:
Oh, I'm sorry, so the lobotomy wasn't successful?
More and more I feel like I miscast my primary vote on Hillary. A month ago I voted for who I thought was the more qualified (by a hair only) candidate. Now I wish I could switch my vote to the one adult still running for president.
And by the way:
Thanks, Florida, for making another grand attempt at monkey-fucking the whole thing again. Take your oranges and your crappy NFL team and drop into the ocean.
Michigan, I don't even know what to say to you. You've been had, I guess.
Egad, look at us....snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. FINE! Let's have another repug president! Can't wait to see what this country looks like in ten years after McLapdog does his only real duty (beyond permanent tax cuts for the rich) and puts another couple of Torquemadas on the Supreme Court.
Frustrating.
[fuming]
anon @ 131:
:lol:
But you just called Amato a "webmonger"....and on HIS dime!
They had on fox the dolt who wants to keep the democratic nominee off the ballot here in Fla. in November. He said that if the candidates did not campaign down here due to the rules of the democratic party, they shouldn't be able to have their name on the ballot in Fla. during the general election. I wonder if the fu*k has any idea how absolutely insane he sounds?
SM @ 132:
Agreed that's unfortunate if that's the case, but evidentally Howard Dean didn't find that argument compelling.
pissed off patricia @ 14:
POP - There's a reason why Rupert Murdoch and corporate America have been funding her.
pissed off patricia @ 137:
Is he a D or an R? Basically, he's saying that we citizens of FL won't be able to vote for a Democrat for president? Why keep McSame on the ballot -- the repigs had their primary on the same early date!!!!!!!
bmw 528 @ 138:
bmw 528 @ 138:
Let me try this again, my post was in the wrong place.
What Howard Dean is saying is to take it up with the Credentials commitee in the Denver Convention. THAT STILL is not fair.
My two cents solution: Take up Charlie Crist’s offer of 10M funding a new Democratic Primary before the Denver convention. He knows the FL congress screwed FL Dem voters and wants to make up for it. I say let’s do it.
Clinton knows damn well these states forfeited the vote a year ago. If she pursues this tact it speaks volumes about her sense of fair play, or should I say lack of?
buzz @ 50:
I am not a Hillary hater... in fact, my leaning has been in her direction until only recently.... beginning with the Michigan primary. I totally agree with the rest of your post.
I've got a solution:
The Florida primaries are projected to cost 18 million. I bet with a little arm-twisting and some volunteer solicitation, both Florida and Michigan could get done for 20 - 25 million. Florida and Michigan can't pay for it, but Clinton raised 35 million in February and Obama raised 50 million. Why don't the candidates pay for it?
Hillary should because her machine works great in Florida and Michigan and shes playing from behind. Obama should because it beats the current breakdown of delegates, and FL and MI can't be dissed like this (or the dems will pay in the general).
Its not like its their own money.
Meanwhile, the FL and MI dems will get a full-on moment in the sun, and the Repubes will still be sanctioning them.
Easy-peasy, now how about that whole Israeli-Palestine thing.
pissed off patricia @ 14:
I agree. The McCain thing really chafed my hide, and those who are defending Hillary on this, I have another thing to point out: did you note the tone? Hillary says that McCain and I are in the club but Barack isn't. Fuck that Washington sorority tone.
And who does Hillary think she's kidding? 35 years of experience? At what? She was only elected to the Senate in 2000. That was 8 years ago, not 35. She just made the case for McCain.
Old Billy @ 146:
Yes, she gave McCain the ammunition to use against herself and Obama. It was one of her more stupid and ill-advised campaign proclamations.
wow, most posters here really don't get it.
What Dean is saying, is that none of the options discussed break the rules.
All of the delegates can be seated, ACCORDING TO THE RULES, if an appeal is made to the credentials committee at the convention. That is the avenue that the Hillary camp is hoping to pursue, if a deal in their favor is not brokered beforehand by Dean.
Now...I am not saying that Hillary isn't a cheater...she is. I'm not saying that it isn't dirty, back-room politics...it is.
But what the Clinton camp hopes to do is in accordance with the rules,
and a fair amount of blame should go to the DNC: which has purposely crafted this debacle.
pissed off patricia @ 16:
This is a very important point that is far too often overlooked in the discussion. I say, heck, if they can come up with a fair proposal, let's do it. Some politicians or party wonks screwed a bunch of well-intentioned voters over with these moves. Just because we have some tea leaf reading idea of what MIGHT be the outcome doesn't mean we choose sides based on our candidate preferenece or we are no better off than the vote thieves from 2000.
Set up a fair shot for both candidates. Heck, we could be surprised since there are only two left.
Revote after an opportunity to campaign. Count the votes.
By the way, I'm an Edwards supporter turned Obama supporter so no, I'm not a shill for HRC in this topic.
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