Howard Dean on Face the Nation: Can Mail-in ballots solve the Florida/Michigan problem?
By John Amato Monday Mar 10, 2008 7:45pm
Howard Dean was on Face the Nation on Sunday and discussed what the DNC could do to try and help get Florida and Michigan another chance to seat their delegates. He's in a tough position because he's got to follow the rules as is, but you know that they are trying to work out a compromise between the campaigns so it can be fixed before the convention. And I'm sick of seeing Gov. Crist being interviewed on teevee and throwing his two cents into the process when--you know---he's a Republican with an agenda.
Download | play 
Download | play (h/t Heather)
SCHIEFFER: Well, Senator Levin is talking this morning, Senator Nelson has been talking about some sort of a mail-in process. How would you do that?
Gov. DEAN: Well, that's actually a process that's been used elsewhere, and there's precedent for having a so-called do-over. DC had to do it, I think Delaware had to do it because other states have jumped ahead in the past, too, and then decided--thought better of it later on. But that's actually a very good process, and it's one that we discussed early on when we were negotiating with Florida, hoping to head this--all this stuff off. Every delegate gets a--gets a--gets a ballot in the mail. I mean, excuse me, every voter gets a ballot in the mail. It's comprehensive, you get to vote if you're in Iraq or in a nursing home. It's not a bad way to do this. Oregon does their general elections by a vote by mail.
SCHIEFFER: Well...
Gov. DEAN: So it's a good way, and it's a great party-building exercise because then you know who's active and who votes and so forth.
SCHIEFFER: Well, who would pay for that, governor? That seems to be the issue.
Gov. DEAN: Well, that is a problem. Senator Nelson and I've--and I have had some discussions which could lead to something fruitful, which is that the Florida party would be able to raise money. They can take unlimited amount of money in Florida. I don't know if that's possible in Michigan or not. And there's some discussion about that, too. The two things I think that are established are the state isn't going to pay for it, because their governor, who's a McCain supporter, has said they won't pay for it. And the Democratic National Committee is not going to pay for it because right now our job is to tell the American people about Senator McCain's record on Iraq and the deficits and so forth, and convince the American
people that our nominee is better than Senator McCain.
SCHIEFFER: Well...
Gov. DEAN: And that's what we're going to be using our resources for.
SCHIEFFER: I understand that, governor, but as the head of the party, you're just going to sit and wait until the states tell you what to do? What if they decide to do nothing? Does that mean their delegations won't be seated?
Gov. DEAN: Well, that's--not necessarily. There's two things they can do. One is to have this kind of an alternative process, which we're talking about now, and the other is simply to appeal to the Credentials Committee at the--at the convention, which is controlled, actually, by the delegates, not by me. And they can do a lot of things at the Credentials Committee. I think it's very unlikely that Florida and Michigan, given how close this race is, are going to be seated as-is. But everybody's going to work very hard to find a compromise within the rules that's fair to both campaigns that will allow Florida and Michigan, in the end, to be seated.
Read the full transcript here.
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Why not just let the US Supreme Court decide?
Who will pay for it? Not Michigan, they're broke. Not Florida, they're in the hands of the Republicans. Not the DNC, so they say. Someone has to pay for it.
Yes, Oregon does it, and we have been very successful with honest elections. I wonder how Florida can get around that.
So long as the ballots don't have hanging chads.
I live in Oregon and I LOVE my vote by mail!!!!
Doc Deans Back?
Where's he been?
Why don't we just give the voters in Florida and Michigan an 800 number to call and cast their ballots? It works for American Idol, and the way this Democratic primary is going so far, it's not much different.
I am sooooooo happy someone on the national level is at least talking about the Oregon model. Here's an article that appeared in the Washington Post in 2006 with details, persuasive argument, and a great framing about voter turnout:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/
wp-dyn/content/article/2006/11/17/
AR2006111701592.html
A wonderful model that the entire nation could emulate!
How about the state party leaders who decided to create this mess paying for it? Why don't we know who these people are? Although there may be blame to go around, it seems like the decision makers in FL and MI are the real reasons their voters are worried about being disenfranchised.
And the irony. Had they not tried to jump the line, they would have had the impact they wanted by waiting their turn. Instead, they are trying to find a way to be relevant here.
Bummed for the voters, but the party leaders made a dumb decision and now want someone else to pay for fixing it, blaming others all the while.
meanwhile,McCain raises more money.And gets more support.
Someone said" if there's a way to lose this election ,the Dems will find it."
I have to say,this is getting old,real fast.
Try this on for size:
Obama/Boxer '08
Why does this feel like a 'it didn't turn out the way we wanted, so let's do it over' kind of thing ?
Is it too late to give Florida back to Spain?
This lends more credence to my theory that the Republicans are mean-spirited bastards, but the Democrats are feckless dicks.
Sidney Scooter III @ 1:
HAH!
lets make everyone in MI FL revote so the poor widdle baby hillary can have her dewagates.
Do over, or nothing. Can't change the rules in the middle of the game just because you are losing.
Gotta say, this was a decent interview. The questions were designed to find out the answers. As usual, Dean gave them.
Dave @ 5:
Yep! We have permanent absentee voting in California, where we can vote by mail if we want to, every single election. Works great.
Keith H. @ 12:
It's not. Florida and Michigan simply defied the rules of the party, and have to figure out a way to play by the rules. The problem isn't that they want a "do-over" because things didn't work out the way they wanted; the problem is that the voters of those states were disenfranchised through decisions in which they had no part. Yet again, we see that power is not justly derived from the consent of the governed in this country.
L.A. Confidential @ 6:
Where have you been?
Make them go last, make the state party (and donors) pay for it and do it by mail. Not disenfranchised, but not rewarded either.
Keith H. @ 12:
I think they had a referendum for schools that was to be voted on. Why they didn't put that on the primary ballot on the normal date is beyond me.
Let's see... Michigan and Florida were warned that if they moved their primary dates up their delegates would not be seated. And they went ahead and did it anyway, demonstrating the kind of stupidity that has made their respective states legendary. So now we're supposed to say, "Ah, well, rules don't really mean anything, we'll figure out some way to make it all better."
So next time the Democratic Party says that there is a rule about something, we'll know that they don't really mean it and the state parties are free to do whatever the hell they want. So much for the rule of law versus the rule of men.
Dave @ 5:
Same here. It's cheap, it's easy, it keeps people talking to each other about issues, and there's never been a fraud problem.
As for paying for it--it would be easy. I don't know if either state allows Independents to vote for Democrats, but if they do, the Democratic parties of Michigan and Florida should pay for Independents to receive ballots. Why? Democrats won't want Indies feeling disenfranchised--they'll need those voters in November. There are fewer Indies, too, so it will be cheaper to print and mail to them than to Democrats.
As for Democrats receiving their ballots, Dean needs to go to Obama and Clinton and say, "Look. You guys raised over $80 million last month alone. Get on your websites and tell your supporters how much each of you needs these states. Have a dedicated fund-raiser over the net--say for one weekend. If you want these Democratic voters, you have to pony up to pay for their ballots." This would show party unity, and it would also make Democratic voters in the two states (and the party itself) feel like the candidates cared about them. And then the candidates can say, "See, it didn't cost the taxpayers a dime."
The primaries should happen on the same day, the week after Pennsylvania. That way, ta-dah, we'll have a winner and an end to all this back-and-forth bickering.
Do I get the job?
Your country is fucked.
Sorry to bring a realistic assessment from the UK.
Will you all just go away.
Please.
Russ Mason UK @ 23:
Uk, is that the University of Kentucky?
Russ Mason UK @ 23:
we can't go away,we're stuck here.But you can.adios.
mudshark hussein @ 25:
Give my regards to the old bag queen and all of her nasty little dogs.
Uncle Monkey @ 11:
Hell no.
bart @ 9:
Exactly.
Why don't they just do every state the same day like a fed election? I don't get this. Is this supposed to build up momentum? Most people are sick of hearing about politics after a few weeks. They've made dragging it out into an art form.
hillbilly @ 16:
Yep.
EVERYONE and I mean EVERYONE doesn't tell the REAL story. The(republican controlled) Floriduh legislature passed a law mandating that the primary be on a certain date because it had provisions on voting for a bill that effected Floriduh(where I live) voters. PERIOD. The Democratic party(in Floriduh) had NOTHING to do with the date change. PERIOD. Any questions?
Ron @ 24:
Yeah, in Lexington. Part of the SEC and at one time quite a formidable basketball power. Not doing quite so well these days. . .
Of course, it could be Kansas. And Kansas does pretty well in bball.
Can't think of any other place germane to our discussion.
David Hawes @ 31:
thank you for bringing this up.I had heard all of this recently.but forgot some of the details.not to question you,but are you sure this info is correct?is so,that makes the dems there some serious dumbass's
bart @ 32:
You just don't know where the trolls can be coming from anymore.
UK? Your faithful 51st state.
How dare you?!
Seriously though, please leave the planet.
Isolate yourselves.
It's all a fix. I predict Clinton/Obama.
I want, and if things were counted equally, you'd get the will of the people - Obama/Clinton.
I'm watching CNN here in your 51st state - It's 1.30am here and I totally and utterly despair at the nation you have become.
Cheers, raises another glass.
Russ Mason UK @ 35:
you're in Puerto Rico?
no that can't be it.Ireland.......yeah,that's it.Tell me....Rangers or Celtic?
Russ Mason UK @ 23:
The UK is our poodle. We will discipline you!
Russ Mason UK @ 35:
Dear 51st state,
You owe us a hell of a lot of back taxes.
We sure could use the cash after our government (and yours) led us into a war based on false evidence.
Please remit your payment at your earliest convenience.
David Hawes @ 31:
Fair enough. If state politics are at the root of this problem, I really don't see why the DNC should pay to fix it. Why can't FL voters put pressure on its own state govt?
And no, this story is not well reported if this is the case. What was the point of this? Did FL want to be first in the Republican primary? Were there "side bonuses" of messing up the democratic primary? At any rate, why can't the FL legislature then be held accountable for disenfranchising its own citizens??? DNC rules were well understood by that point.
Or is it just a power play by a state republican party to affect a national party?
The once Great ..Britain is no longer so Great.We should've learned from all of her mistakes.She only screwed up for 3 or 4 hundred years.and that's how long it took her to figure it out.
mudshark hussein @ 33:
Well,mud it's like THIS- When A Law is passed it's a law. And with a RePug Governor,it's Law. Over and Out.
Ron @ 34:
Russ isn't a troll. He's been on here for quite some time.
bart @ 39:
I dare say the latter.Just another way for the GOP to derail another election,and it appears to be working.
Mudshark, please stop taking the piss,
The UK = United Kingdom, your ally in your so called war on terror.
Rangers, though deep down I don't care about Celtic/Rangers. I care about Hull City, I live only for Hull City.
We in the UK (United Kingdom) are more civilsed than you lot.
That's why we don't have the death penalty.
mudshark hussein @ 40:
Come on gang, be nice. She went into debt with the same bullshit lines that the American public did. Didn't hear anyone complaining when Blair supported the US invasions right after 911..........if I recall the "freedom fries" spiel, it was the french that were evil.
The law was passed and it affected BOTH parties. BUT. In the RePug primary,the dlegates where cut in half. In the Dems None counted.
mudshark hussein @ 36:
Well. I didn't vote for a 51st state. Anyone else want another star on the flag? Can't think where it would go. Nope. No room. Better apply next year. So sorry. We'll get back to you.
Russ Mason UK @ 44:
Some (including monitors) have been selective with their venom to me as well Russ. We ain't American, so how dare we share an opinion. It seems to have gotten worse since Clinton started going Republican on Obama. Now it's open season on all, and soon we'll here the "you're just anti-American" spiel just like on the rightwing blogs. It's sad. I like this blog and alot of the posters. Watching them attack you tonight is sure disheartening.
Russ Mason UK @ 44:
quite right old boy,you see, I'm a colonial..as for being more civilised.eh
What happened here in Floriduh is one reason I am so disgusted with the primary process. When primarys became a popular issue,it was to Stop all the backroom wheeling and dealing. Now,the party hacks just found a way to make it what They want. A sham.
Concerned hussein canuck at 42,
Thanks for those kind remarks, I'm not a troll.
Just tired. 8 years is a long time to lose a friend.
But, good news, when you get rid of the unspeakable one and all of his cronies...you'll be welcomed back to the family of civilised nations with open arms!
ConcernedHusseinCanuck @ 48:
Aw,Lighten up, Canuck. Mine was all meant tongue in cheek. I get this guff on a daily basis from the UK. Sorry if I sounded 'venomous'.
hey you guys are entitled to your opinion.But when someone starts bashing us.you can expect the same in return.And don't tell me you haven't done that Concerned.You get what you pay for.When was the last time either of you saw someone here bash either the UK or Canada?
Fanon @ 52:
Can't anybody take a joke anymore?
ConcernedHusseinCanuck @ 48:
Venom? Nope, just "taking the piss." This bloke did say "please go away" on a blog about American politics. I mean, really. I could say "go away" on a blog about British politics, but I wouldn't. Simply bad manners.
But I'm so glad to know what UK stands for now. I somehow missed that in my studies of British literature. Darn. Should have read more Milton.
naschkatzeHussein @ 3:
You have no idea if your vote was counted, or even received.
Absentee balloting has the same problem. Your vote can very easily just end up in the trash.
Delivering your vote, in person, in the form of a paper ballot, which is then properly guarded until counted in public, is the most reliable method of secret voting available. Vote by mail is NOT private in the same way-- and many votes may be coerced by that method.
Ummm.Hey Fellers.... UK and Canada are fine people and WE should be glad they don't hate Our guts. Get a Life.
RobertD @ 22:
How would you know?
Paul in LA @ 56:
Jesus! Paul to our rescue! Stop everyone and be Told how and why Paul is Your savior.
Wonderful. So the GOP in Florida does to Democrats what the GOP in Congress does to Democrats: Quick and hard in the posterior regions. And Democrats winge that they couldn't do anything about it and we should all feel sorry. I swear I've never seen a more sorry bunch of people. When will the Democratic Party finally stand up for itself and quit letting the bully kick sand in its face?
Mr. Hussein Pelicano @ 60:
it's simple. The Dem PARTY machine could have granted an exemption. They didn't. Party before Nation. Just like the RePugs.
Sorry, but my original point stands.
You'll get Clinton/Obama.
I would like Obama/AnOther.
I wish I could vote from 5,000 miles away.
Maybe not, it wouldn't be counted anyway.
CNN is beyond boring, Blitzer, Cooper all the right wingers controlling TV.
Thank goodness me I realised I didn't need Sky tv (murdoch) 6 months ago. Therefore saving £330 - equal to $660.
Fuck murdoch.
The main criticisms of mail voting are three:
a. Differential Information
b. The Pressured Vote
c. Voting as a Communal Act
http://www.american.edu/ia/cfer/research/csae_09132004.pdf
Differential information is a result of the time-shifting of the vote. In several famous cases, last minute events changed the vote in the last day or two before an election, long after most absentee ballots were mailed ("cast"). There is no way to update ones vote if the information changes before the polling day.
Pressured Vote is family members or others, browbeating the voter into marking their ballot differently -- which is not a problem in TRUE secret voting at the polls.
Communal Act is a real concern. When I vote, I walk to the polling place whenever possible. Those who are also arriving at the polls get a fundamental sense of communal action. Sitting at home with a pencil and a stamp is NOT the same thing at all.
David Hawes @ 59:
That isn't a rebuttal. Can I assume that you, David, are one of the causes of the flamewar upthread?
Reasoned responses require --argument--. When argument becomes ad hominem, as in your 'reply,' all YOU succeed in doing is breaking the discussion, which is otherwise considered trolling.
Paul in LA @ 63:
Face it Paul You have NO IDEA if Your vote or anyone elses is actually counted.
David Hawes @ 61:
I think it would have been appropriate to make an exemption if FL had done this before the DNC rules were set. I'm not so sure it was after the fact. Either way, FL republicans had, deliberately or otherwise, a direct effect on the national democratic party. That's definitely not a good idea.
And why is getting FL in ahead of other states who have not had a primary so critical anyway? I certainly wouldn't mind if my state actually had a role in this, and if FL cuts in line again, my vote won't matter much.
Paul in LA @ 64:
You are the last person on earth whom I would care to know what You think of Me.
"Asalamalakum" ~ Hello may god grant you peace. (greeting)
"lakum salam" ~ Thanks with you as well. (response)
"Allah Akbar" ~ God is great. (Amen)
bart @ 66:
The DNC rules were set before the legislation.
David Hawes @ 65:
That is of course variable, due to corruption.
However, under the current regime in my state, I am fairly sure my vote is being counted. It is a piece of paper, marked by me at the poll, and the state is required to keep it for 22 months, safely.
We have crooked RoVs. But so does Oregon. And votes are being disenfranchized by removal from the rolls, even there.
Your argument is essentially, "Well you're one too." Not much of an argument, and certainly not pertinent to the points raised in #63, which you quoted.
David Hawes @ 67:
Fine by me, but the issue is the adequacy of your argument. "You're an asshole" is not an reasoned argument.
Paul in LA @ 70:
It's very pertinent concidering GW Bush was declared 'the winner' contrary to The US Constitution.
I worded that poorly. I do not think making an exemption after DNC rules were set is a good idea. I think making trouble for FL and the DNC was part of the reason for the legislation and I'd hate to see the DNC take responsibility for fixing it.
And I'd actually like for my state to have a say.
Paul in LA @ 71:
I haven't called you an ----- for days.
Hannah Hussein @ 2:
Yes, we're broke. There is also a lot of smokescreen over just who, exactly, made the dumbass decision. All the gov. says is that "Michigan needs a greater voice" in the primaries. Then denies it was her idea/decision. The leading Dems are all busy pointing fingers at anyone else in sight. No one I know has found out who is responsible and our state media sources give glossed over coverage of the mess, if they cover it at all. And in the meantime, the voters are screwed.
Who is going to pay for this? If history means anything the cost will fall directly on the backs of the taxpayers.
Orangutan. @ 68:
Phrases that Osama Obama knows very well.
bart @ 39 "Or is it just a power play by a state republican party to affect a national party?"
Give the man a cigar!
Not a Republican @ 76:
Phrases that I know very well. Phrases that you, if you were half-educated, would know very well.
bart @ 73:
And THAT is why 'the party system' is corrupt. My vote doesn't count because some RePug says it doesn't? Excuse Me. And Paul says I am 'negative' when I say phooey to the process.
You will note Paul hasn't answered MY question.
Paul in LA @ 78:
Educated by whom? You? You, who obviously know it all? No thanks. I know many very uneducated people who have more intelligence than those who blindly follow the crowd, through the slime and mud of "educated" liberals ideology.
David Hawes @ 72:
It is not pertinent in that case, either.
My points were relevant to the issue of mail-in voting. You have completely ignored those points in order to pursue your anger at me.
For the record,
That 'turnout' (by mail) was still the subject of substantial votefraud, I believe.
However, this is not 2000. Diebold is being dismantled, and in California is banned except for one machine per precinct, counted by hand. The crooked SecStates, Harris in Florida, Blackwell in Ohio, the R installed in CA after the loyal SecState was forced out -- all gone (some remain).
This doesn't per se have anything to do with OH/FL mail-in ballots, but with the claim that it is a better system than the one R gamed in order to foist their illegal gov't on us.
mudshark hussein @ 53, Saying we're f***ed is just what most of us having been saying for quite some time now. I agree the go away part was a little bit of a low blow but if it were from anywhere other then the home of tony blair I'd let it slid.
Not a Republican @ 81:
No, you cannot educate a turd, and I wouldn't try.
Paul,
Seriously? Are you on a playground using the wireless? You just called someone a 'turd'. I'm out of here.
I am hardly angry actually quite bemused. Because Unless You deliver Your vote personally to the Elector (electoral college) and then personally go to Washington D.C. WITH that Elector and personally witness that Elector deliver Your vote,You have NO knowledge that Your vote would be counted.
Paul in LA @ 84:
So if you are not a liberal you are a turd?
Hoot @ 87:
Paul is cranky tonight. he hates when His mirror kissing is interrupted.
Fanon @ 85:
Consult #76 for the background on the 'turd' assessment.
I stand by the analysis.
David Hawes @ 80:
What question was that?
Paul in LA @ 90:
Consult 86. Grammar wise not a question-but who cares? Ahhh That's a question.
Paul in LA @ 89:
Liberals are so cranky.
R in C @ 92:
Nahhh.Just paul He wants to save the world by boring US all to death.
mudshark hussein @ 33:
This is absolutely correct. The bill passed pretty much unanimously because it contained important provisions regarding voting security. No one wanted a repeat of previous fiascoes. The poison pill was a malicious afterthought. I don't think anyone foresaw the consequences. Nevertheless a solution (almost inevitably a do over) must be found that is acceptable to both candidates or neither will be able to claim a just victory.
Terrible Hussein @ 83:
I just find it odd the someone would come here(this blog is in the US)and tell us to go away.what's wrong with this picture?as for Concerned,he's been ranting for weeks now.first he's bashing HRC then he's saying he's unbiased.I have no problems with people and their opinions,but when I see some ludicrous comments,it ticks me off.but I'll just start ignoring them now.well,kinda.
Peter G @ 94:
I agree.
David Hawes @ 93:
Err, uh, considering that the object of Paul in LA's name-calling calls himself "Not a Republican" in order to come to C&L and perpetuate the Obama-is-a-Muslim lie, I'd say "turd" lets him off easy.
Karen @ 97:
Well, in my defense, I didn't see the initial object reason for the name call. However, I think he could have elevated the level of discourse a little. Or, better yet, just ignored it.
Peter G @ 94:
thank you.Now I remember all of the details.thanks again.
Karen @ 97:
Err uh Paul kisses mirrors and his favorite quotes are out of His mouth. You'll notice He's gone elsewhere to lecture.
someone out there thinks Paul in LA is a repug?BWAAAAaaaaaaaaaaaaahahahahahahahahah.
oh that's rich.
Nahhh Paul is a LIBERAL. Liberally anointing US all with His whisdom.
I think it is quite amusing getting all you liberals wound up over a little Obama-is-a-Muslim joke. The real scary part is what is going to happen when Obama is president. It appears to me that any Obama criticism will be labeled as racist or promoting lies. Liberals will then be the thought police. At that point we just as well live in Saudi Arabia or Iran for all the freedom we will have lost.
David Hawes @ 91:
OK, I did. If the 'question' is pertinent to the discussion, I fail to see it. Is it your argument that elections are hopelesly rigged, and democracy is impossible?
That's what I like to call 'defeatism.'
mudshark hussein @ 101:
muddy
Nope, read it again. Paul responded to a poster called "Not a Republican" and called him a turd (he was spreading the Obama = Muslim talking point). I objected to the use of the word 'turd' and was roundly (and probably rightly) chastised. ;)
Paul in LA @ 104:
Yup You've called Me that name before. And Yes ,that IS what I'm saying. And umm,by the way USA is a Republic. Not a 'democracy'.
Split the votes equally. The people in the states get their voice heard (albeit in a very general way) but there is no need to argue and talk about this anymore.
David Hawes @ 106:
Yes, that is defeatism. I thought so.
Fanon @ 105:
ok Fanon,my mistake.thanks for the correction.But for this guy"Not a Repugnican"
I probably would have called him worse.that Obama is a muslim is so last month:)
Paul in LA @ 108:
You don't get it,pal. I don't give a flying f--- what YOU think.
mudshark hussein @ 109:
A dated turd?
David Hawes @ 110:
I don't walk this Earth to pass your inspection. YOU think I do.
an over ripe stinky turd........blossum
mudshark hussein @ 113:
Good one. Well, on that note, good night :)
Not a Republican @ 103:
Heh, yeah. I knew someone once who said that he never lies; he only kids. You are aware that the meme has its roots in an insidious, fear-mongering e-mail, right? You cannot reasonably think it would be people would not be upset with you for perpetuating such lies.
Please. There will be actual racism directed toward him, and we'll counter it. There will be actual lies spread about him, and we'll counter it.
You know, I went to UC Berkeley in the early 90s. In the height of the PC era. Indeed, the authoritarian left pushed all sorts of nonsense, and people would call you racist without cause.
But those days were nothing compared to the loss of freedom we've experienced under Bush. People soon saw that kind of authoritarianism from the left for what it was, and it dissipated. We'll have a much harder time recovering from Bush's regime.
If you really want to prevent the U.S. from becoming a Saudi Arabia, concern yourself a lot more with the genuine theocrats here, and live up to your screen name and battle the Republicans. Fearing Obama's liberal dictatorship is just silly.
David Hawes @ 100:
Oh, I have plenty of problems with Paul in LA. I don't address him directly. I just thought that this was a silly thing to go after him for. He was right about "Not a Repubilcan."
There are Two keys for a Human to surviving in this Earth. One is LISTEN(not hearing) . Two SEEING (not Looking). Use those tools and You MIGHT get past 21 years of age.
Karen @ 116:
Paul and I have a History. He likes to lecture and I'm too old to be lectured to.
Karen @ 115:
Both the Bush religion AND the liberal religion are to be feared. Equally.
Not a Republican @ 119:
I agree as it stands Today. I have been a 'Liberal' all My life,but extreemism on both sides breeds tyranny.
Not a Republican @ 119
You'll get no argument from me that authoritarianism is a threat, whether it comes from the left or the right. (I'm known here as a libertarian-progressive.)
But you cannot reasonably invoke that as a defense to coming here and spreading the Obama-is-a-Muslim lie. If people react angrily to that, you know why, and it has nothing to do with liberals being thought police. It has everything to do with resenting the fear mongering involved with that meme.
And while authoritarianism rears its ugly head from both the left and right sides of the political spectrum, to fear such merely because Obama is black is absurd. You'll be able to speak freely about Obama, and the Democrats aren't going to threaten any official action against you like the Bush regime.
I do hope you don't end up voting for McCain if Obama is the nominee.
David Hawes @ 118:
I have a history with him too. I think he makes a lot of excellent points. And I wouldn't mind debating him if he weren't so impolite whenever he and I disagree. So, I resolved a while back not to address him directly. I don't converse with him.
Nevertheless, if I do agree with him on something, and it appears that most people do not, I have no problem mentioning why I agree with him.
;)
Karen @ 121:
David Hawes @ 120:
gree as it stands Today. I have been a 'Liberal' all My life,but extreemism on both sides breeds tyranny.
I don't fear Obama because he is black. I also will not vote for McCain or H. Clinton. However, I would vote for Collin Powell over the current crop.
That's an awful idea. Republicans will use the ballot to vote for Hillary.
Speaking as a Michigan Democrat, the only way I'd want our delegates to be seated would be if some new type of voting took place. I know people who voted democrat all of their lives who chose to vote in the Republican primary this year because there didn't seem to be a point in casting a vote over a one person ticket.
This whole rigamarole has been fairly amusing in the morbid way that most everything in Michigan has been amusing of late (if you don't laugh you'll blow your brains out, or some such). The state heads of both the Republican and Democratic parties got together and jointly chose to move the primary ahead with an eye towards getting some of that presidential campaign money funneled into the state and this is the result.
We'll see what happens. As it stands right not, my friend, who works for a state senator, says that the delegates can't even book hotel rooms in Denver. Once again, my state is getting press for all the wrong reasons.
Florida House Dems kills revote
by kos
Tue Mar 11, 2008 at 09:09:04 PM PDT
No redo in Florida.
"We are committed to working with the DNC, the Florida State Democratic party, our Democratic leaders in Florida, and our two candidates to reach an expedited solution that ensures our 210 delegates are seated. Our House delegation is opposed to a mail-in campaign or any redo of any kind.”
Here's how you seat them -- you cut them in half for breaking the rules, like the GOP did, and then you assign them 50/50 each to Obama and Clinton. Presto! Issue solved.
Would work with Michigan, too.
States and future candidates need to know that the rules will be enforced. If they are not, there's no way we can enforce a new calendar without New Hampshire and Iowa at the head. They'll break the rules, and candidates fearful that the results will count will have no choice but to campaign, defeating the purpose of the new calendar.
Anyone who wants our primary calendar reformed can't possibly allow Michigan and Florida to be seated as is.
Russ Mason UK @ 23:
The UK is a failed empire isn't it?
Failed empires are the BEST empires.
The UK is great because it is no longer an empire. Not only imperialism immoral, it's also fucking expensive.
The UK grew up out of it's spoiled toddlerhood and gave up its empire, and now it's a good world citizen for the most part, and its citizens have a decent standard of living.
You idiots who seems to want an American empire are the problem. Who the hell wants to be the biggest most powerful nation on earth? When it requires brutality and crimes against humanity to achieve? When it makes the rest of the world rightfully despise you? When it costs your citizens a fortune and bankrupts the country? FUCK THAT.
Do you really think the people of the UK, or Holland, or Iceland or wherever else are upset over the fact that they aren't pushing other countries around? No. They're happy to just be living good lives and providing exotic luxuries to their citizens like health care.
Recent studies have shown that the people of Iceland are the happiest in the world. Doesn't that sound nice? Doesn't that sound attractive? Wouldn't it be cool to be in the country where the people are the happiest?
Do you think you get there through imperialism? I don't think so.
great idea, we'll let the POST OFFICE handle the election! nothing can go wrong with that.
The Honorable Governor Howard Dean! There's always hope when we have leaders like him. I hope he takes another try at a US presidential run. He was shafted by the media in 2004. Give us another scream! We love you.
Vote by mail seems to be the solution. Well DNC start the process and get the job done!
Manny: great idea, we'll let the POST OFFICE handle the election! nothing can go wrong with that.
Good point -
And in Michigan, we'll let Gov. Jennifer Granholm (D-MI) (DLC) (Big Hillary Supporter) count 'em. She can hardly wait. Here's my prediction: she will want to use Michigan's Diebold Accuvote scanners to tabulate those ballots! So much easier than a (blecchh) hand count!
And in Florida - what could possibly go wrong counting votes in Florida? The Democrats are wailing that they were hosed by the Republican governor - but they went ahead and participated in the primary. NOW they're trying to bulldoze the Democrats into changing the rules they agreed on, because they didn't resolve their problem themselves? What did they think would happen to "their votes"?
Another thing that kind of jumps out at you: no mention of mailing ballots to registered independents.
The DNC (and the Obama campaign, for that matter) should never, never agree to a re-do in any form that is not hand counted and monitored by observers from both campaigns.
To Howard Dean: We need to focus on raising money for the general election, right? We need to get this one large dumbness behind us, right? Chris Dodd has the obvious solution. Send the delegations to the convention. Seat them. Split their votes down the middle. They'll count, and they won't be able to change them. Therefore, they'll be a little lonely, but hey. They'll get to be there to see the states that followed the rules, the ones they voted to approve, elect the Democratic nominee.
In Adult World we call that Logical Consequences.
Well, if they do this, then they also have to get rid of the superdelegates
I believe Mr. Dean has more urgent mattes before him than worrying about mail-in ballots. The question is whether to allow the Clintons, and their increasingly ugly campaign and surrogates, to remain in the race. Mrs. Ferraro's ugly, stupid, and racist comments mean she should be removed as a Clinton campaign staffer. She should also be stripped of her status as a superdelegate. Anyone with her publically revealed mindset should not be allowed to represent the Democratic party's insiders. Increasingly, it seems clear that Mr. Dean should decide the Clintons are unfit to represent the Democratic party and Mr. Obama should be the nominee. This will spare us all many future months of ugliness from the increasingly desperate Clintons.
2fargone @ 126:
I like this idea. There should be some repercussions for disregarding the party's decision or not waiting for the party to change its mind. However, it does give the state some voice in the process. Unfortunately, this whole discussion has been seen as nothing more than a way for the Clintons to get delegates. If Hillary wins the delegate vote based on Michigan/Florida delegates, progressives will not vote in the Nov. election and it will be a McCain win. Sad, but true.
Widespread @ 14:
Ditto - The American people can't win with bastards and feckless dicks running this country.
i live in florida and im really embarassed that we cant get through one election without worldwide attention due to incompetance.
i dont think we deserve a voice until FARK doesnt have a florida tag anymore. its probably never gonna happen.
OK, but what do we do when Limbaugh and Hannity tell their Repug minions to take the ballots they receive in the mail and vote for Hillary????
What protection is there from that, Howard, eh???? Silence.......................didn't think so.
mudshark hussein @ 99:
This version of events is whitewashing the last few years of politics in Florida. I moved here in '01. BOTH parties had been in favor of moving up the primaries as recently as '99 for the 2000 election season.
In discussion of the bill last year that actually passed: yes, the unanimous vote is misleading because of the inclusion of the paper trail provisions in the bill as it was voted on: NO politician with an IQ above room temperature is going to vote against that in Florida.
But the early primary date was NOT something that was foisted, whole hog, on some wimpy democrats by the big bad republicans. Living here while this issue was debated, I can tell you there was never a partisan line drawn AT THE TIME between democrats and republicans. There was discussion of the fact that it was contrary to the rules (of both parties) and that there would be some repercussions, but the way people are framing it here to make FL democrats out as victims is infuriatingly revisionist.
There are plenty of real examples of republicans successfully manipulating the system using Machiavellian schemes, as well as of democrats being played as incompetent dupes.
No need to make shit up.
CRIST IS A MORON
wait.... the votes are just coming in.... yes..... A MORON
he missed JACKASS by 2%
Paul in LA @ 82:
In the 2000 general election, Oregon’s turnout did increase by 2.8 percentage points which was barely higher than the national increase of 2.7 percentage points but substantially below the average increase in turnout (3.5 percentage points) of battleground states of which it was one, Eighteen states had greater increases in turnout than Oregon. None of these had all-mail voting.
That 'turnout' (by mail) was still the subject of substantial votefraud, I believe.
Paul in LA:
Where are you getting your information? In Nov 2000 here in Oregon we had 1,588,858 ballots returned out of 1,953,373 registered voters for almost 80% and in 2004 we voted almost 84%. The states that have used some form of vote-by-mail always have higher voter turnout.
Seems like a mail ballot favors Clinton since a lot of Obama voters are Independent and cross-over Republicans. If only democrats get ballots, is it really a fair assessment?
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