Remembering another Jeremiah
I've been in communication with many other bloggers and progressive activists about various aspects of the primary race. It's always been helpful to me to bounce ideas off of others and just check my gut reactions before I start blogging about a subject. As you might imagine, the media storm over Barack Obama's relationship to Rev. Jeremiah Wright has resulted in a flurry of emails back and forth. One of the most thoughtful emails I got was from Jeff Sharlet, author of the upcoming book The Family: The Secret Fundamentalism at the Heart of American Power, and I asked and received his permission to share it with you:
In contextualizing Jeremiah Wright's "God damn America," it might be worth remembering another Jeremiah who expressed similar sentiments: namely, Jeremiah. As in, the prophet of the Hebrew Bible, or the "Old Testament," if you prefer.
Why does that matter? Because it reminds us that a core function of one who attempts to speak in a prophetic voice is to remind us that we are in this together and that we'll both prosper and suffer together. Many evangelical Christians speak of a "gift of discernment," not unlike the "gift of tongues." Us democratically-minded folk might do well to remember that that core concept of a democracy is that we all have some gift of discernment. So let's use ours and consider the prophetic statements on offer:
1. Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson said America is damned -- cursed by God, though not permanently -- because we tolerate feminists and queer people.
2. John Hagee says America is damned -- cursed by God, though not permanently -- because we tolerate Muslims.
3. Jeremiah Wright says America is damned -- cursed by God, though not permanently, suffering from hate and division, from bitterness and envy -- because we succumb to hating one another.
For my money, my Bible, and my democracy, that last sentiment has the ring of truth, and I'm not even a religious man.
That doesn't mean it's a sentiment for a campaign trail. But it does mean that in framing this, we might want to turn our anger toward Fox and the NY Post and all those denouncing Jeremiah Wright rather than the man who says we suffer because of racism. Here is a pastor trying, perhaps not successfully, to preach accountability for hate, not for tolerance. And here is a media that is demanding that we NOT be held accountable for hate.
That is, mainstream media is telling us we must tolerate hate -- Hagee -- but not those who don't believe we should tolerate hate -- Wright.
Jeremiah Wright's words were harsh, as were Jeremiah's. As were Martin Luther King's -- "I have a dream" wasn't his only speech, and he died holding America accountable for the war in Vietnam and the war against the poor at home. That's not left, that's not right, that's not "racial," that's not "post-racial." It's prophetic. The Right's screeching, meanwhile, is simply pathetic.
You can learn more about Jeff's book on his blog, The Revealer. Diana Butler Bass at BeliefNet also wrote a very compelling piece that I hope puts to rest the accusation of hate in Rev. Wright's sermons:
The current media flap over the Rev. Jeremiah Wright, Barack Obama's former pastor, strikes me as nothing short of strange. Anyone who attends church on a regular basis knows how frequently congregants disagree with their ministers. To sit in a pew is not necessarily assent to a message preached on a particular day. Being a church member is not some sort of mindless cult, where individuals believe every word preached. Rather, being a church member means being part of a community of faith—a gathered people, always diverse and sometimes at odds, who constitute Christ's body in the world.
But the attack on Rev. Wright reveals something beyond ignorance of basic dynamics of Christian community. It demonstrates the level of misunderstanding that still divides white and black Christians in the United States. Many white people find the traditions of African-American preaching offensive, especially when it comes to politics.I know because I am one of those white people. My first sustained encounter with African-American preaching came in graduate school about twenty years ago. I had been assigned as a teaching assistant to a course in Black Church Studies. The placement surprised me, since I had no background in the subject. But the professor assured me that "anyone with experience teaching American religion" would be able to handle the load.
The subject matter was not, as the professor indicated, difficult. The emotional content, however, was. To prepare, I had to read literally thousands of pages of black preaching and theology covering the entire scope of American history. While the particulars of preaching changed through time, one thing did not. Throughout the entire corpus, black Christian leaders leveled a devastating critique against their white brothers and sisters—accusing white Christians of maintaining "ease in Zion" while allowing black people to suffer injustice and oppression.
Typical of the form used by black preachers is Frederick Douglass' address, "What to the Slave is the Fourth of July?" first delivered on July 5, 1852. The address, a political sermon, forcefully attacks white culture. "Fellow-citizens," Douglass proclaims, "above your national, tumultuous joy, I hear the mournful wails of millions! Whose chains, heavy and grievous yesterday, are, today, rendered more intolerable by the jubilee shouts that reach them." He goes on to calls American conduct "hideous and revolting" and accuses white Christians of trampling upon and disregarding both the constitution and the Bible. He concluded his sermon with the words, "For revolting barbarity and shameless hypocrisy, America reigns without a rival."
This was very hard to take. I confess: nearly everything I read that semester pained and angered me. But four months of listening to voices that I wanted to reject made me different. I began to hear the power of the critique. I came to appreciate the prophetic nature of black preaching. I recognized that these voices emerged from a very distinct historical experience. And I admired the narrative interplay between the Bible and social justice. Over time, they taught me to hear the Gospel from an angular perspective—the angle of slaves, freed blacks, of those who feared lynching, of those who longed for Africa, those who could not attend good schools. From them, I learned that liberation through Jesus was a powerful thing. And that white Americans really did need to repent when it came to race.
Learning to listen was not easy. It took patience, historical imagination, and lots of complaining to my friends—even my African-American ones. Eventually, I figured out that even if your ancestors had been the oppressors, you can enter into the world of those who had been oppressed with generosity and a heart open to transformation.
As MSNBC, CNN, and FOX endlessly play the tape of Rev. Wright's "radical" sermons today, I do not hear the words of a "dangerous" preacher (at least any more dangerous than any preacher who takes the Gospel seriously!) No, I hear the long tradition that Jeremiah Wright has inherited from his ancestors. I hear prophetic critique. I hear Frederick Douglass. And, mostly, I hear the Gospel slant—I hear it from an angle that is not natural to me. It is good to hear that slant.
That was the most beautiful explanation I've heard. I mean, I got what Wright was saying, but it sure scared the pants off a lotta white folks didn't it?
Why would a campaign have a religious adviser anyway?
Amen!
There can be no rational argument without agreement as to language.
"Contextualize"?
The modern and worthless attempt to turn nouns into verbs.
If language is lost, logic is lost.
Then it's anarchy, every person for him/herself, the most powerful and connected win.
It's really simple. In context, Rev. Wright said 1) nothing that is factually wrong, and 2) nothing that is that out of step with the way a lot of black people feel right now. White ones, too. He can preach to his choir all he wants.
And we also need to keep this in mind: to paraphrase Geraldine Ferraro, if Obama and Wright were not black, the wingnuts would not be jumping all over this. All you have to do is look at their silence over McCain's hateful friends.
New topic, please. Something that MATTERS.
This was move-to-tears beautiful. Thanks so much.
You can spin this all you want. But the fact that Obama returned to listen to this fanatic preacher more than once or twice... hell for 20 years... is very damning. Not a temporary damning by "god". No, likely a final damning by the Amercan voters.
This is why separation of church and state is so important
Thanks for posting this. It's a keeper. Unfortunately, I believe Jeff Sharlet's level of understanding, reasoning and comparison may be lost on the typical voter, who seems to have an attention span of about 30 seconds, and sees the entire world in terms of good vs. evil, with nothing between the two.
"...we might want to turn our anger toward Fox and the NY Post and all those denouncing Jeremiah Wright rather than the man who says we suffer because of racism. Here is a pastor trying, perhaps not successfully, to preach accountability for hate, not for tolerance. And here is a media that is demanding that we NOT be held accountable for hate."
Sanity at last. The tide is turning. Someone at Daily Kos also stands up for the guy:
The purpose of a good sermon isn't to placate, ease, and make people comfortable. A dangerous religion isn't one that challenges people and makes them squirm. Makes them angry. A dangerous religion is one that is too amicable to what you already think, one that pats you on the head and sends you forth in assurance of your own righteousness. If you want to search for "traitors" in the pulpit, turn your eye toward those who never find anything wrong in the actions of this nation.
GoodGod @ 7:
For God's sake, can't you absorb anything beyond the political babbling in your own head?
Thank you.
"Obama's Church Accuses Media Of Character Assassination"
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/03/16/obamas-church-accuses-me_n_9176...
RE "John Hagee says America is damned — cursed by God, though not permanently — because we tolerate Muslims."
Link?
I comment seldom, but I feel compelled to say that this post needs a very wide distribution. As in spread the Gospel.
I listened to repeated presentations of Wright's video clips and I could not find anything to disagree with.
This is a great post and I give great thanks.
There's that nasty double standard again. Up is down, black is white, peace is war. Idiots.
GoodGod @ 7:
Really? Because why? Because you say so? And what information do you have regarding the sermons this minister has preached for 20 years that leads you to believe they were all fanatical? I assume you weren't there to hear this minister or to know anything about his relationship with his congregation otherwise you would also be "damned". And the information in this thread was not "spin", it was factual. Are you really able to discount those facts?
Let's not forget the most famous Jeremiah: The Bullfrog.
This is the most important thing he said. One must surrender one's presumptions and preconceptions, deal with the discomfort of guilt perhaps, and begin to listen to others who welcome you into their fellowship.
It's a mutual effort.
All well and good. I even agree with much of what the Rev. says. But do you really think this plays in the heartland? And, more important for me, do I want my children to hear something like this? It sounds like hate. So, let us understand this: as long as the unvarnished hate is coming from an African-American leftist clergyman, and not some conservative-Republican type evangelist, it's ok? I'm just really confused. I think hate, in any form, especially using the name of Jesus, is . . . well, just that, hate.
GoodGod @ 7:
Spin what? That all religion is a fairy tail told to scare children and control the adults? That Pat Robertson, John Hagee, Jerry Falwell, and many many other religious Republican backers have said much more and much worse but they were not scary black people. Spin what!!??
Good God stop trying to justify this type of hateful garbage.
If you really want to have a look at some hate speech, check out this site:
http://www.hatecrime.org/subpages/hatespeech/hate.html
http://www.hatecrime.org/subpages/hatespeech/hate.html
All the usual suspects, with links.
(Yes. I'm posting it yet again.)
I was incensed over this language when I first heard it.
However, I watched and listened to Wright's sermons over and over...and I pretty much now understand what he's saying, and I agree with him. Damn me all you want.
I grew up in Detroit, and as a kid, was disappointed at some point to realize I wasn't black. :) My black friends and their families were more genuine, more generous, and far more tolerant than my white friends. I would walk through what today would seem like the seediest of black neighborhoods...and I would feel perfectly safe.
I think blacks taught me to judge others based on what I feel is inside, not what I see and hear on the outside. This is why I have a very difficult time comprehending how people can judge others based on the color of their skin.
We have a lot to learn from the black culture, and firey language is just the tip of the iceberg.
I mean....listen to Wright's sermon again and ask yourself: Which church would you rather attend? One that forces you to think or one that politely states the obvious?
I'll take the former.
I could not have said it any better. Wish I had said it nearly as well. (From the pulpit this morning, that is.)
Thank you. Thank you so much! The demonization and distortion of Jerimiah Wright has been a personally painful matter for me. I have attended the church, have received support for my community projects that have benefitted all citizens in Chicago from Reverend Wright - an act of generosity I will never forget- because of the unwarranted resistance I received. Barak's got to do what Barak's got to do.Even if he offered thorough and reasoned arguments for maintaining his church membership and his association with Reverend Wright, it wouldn't make a damn bit of difference anyway. With our eyes on the White House, he's got to play to the wise and the ignorant alike. I have lived long enough to remember how people spoke of Martin Luther King. He was called a rabble-rouser, a pimp and he was loathed by many in the clergy. His "mountain top" speech was delivered during a midnight vigil in a church that was surrounded by an angry white mob bent on killing the people inside and the civil rights movement. For African-Americans, politics and religion had to conflate. If you ever visit Chicago, I challenge everyone reading this to visit Trinity United Church of Christ on 95th Street on the South Side. No matter what your color (and there are white members of the congregation) you will find a warm welcome. You will find that what these monstrous and shallow media pundits and opposing operatives have done a shameful thing. I greatly appreciate your thoughtful analysis.
This whole Rev. Wright brouhaha was starting to get to me, because Reverend Huckabee was well-known for his cringe-worthy statements (one of my favorites was about how wives must submit to their husbands, shaddup in church, etc.) -- so if the all-hallowed mass media can swallow that sort of God-Swill, what is the big deal about Rev. Wright preaching liberation theology?
It does go to show that if some religious purveyors get a pass, then maybe the whole subject should just fall under freedom of speech/expression, whatever. Sick!
Edwin Hussein (not a scary black Reverend) @ 22:
You need to check this out
http://cjonline.com/stories/031608/loc_258306797.shtml
Is the opposition (Hillary and McCain) attacking a Christian minister fundamentally a good idea? Think about it.
No. 44 @ 10:
I agree with "Someone". As a believing Christian, I am disgusted by what is paraded as Christianity in this country today. Too much finger pointing and self-righteousness. If any of them had ever read their Bibles they would be looking at their own (many) faults and be consumed with working on those - not calling others out as "sinners". But your average church now gives a hearty "God bless the USA and the Republican party" with that pat on the head and "you're OK" sermon. I do believe that is part of what got us into this mess we're in now. We don't have a separation of church and state in reality, and I'm not sure I like the 'church' that I'm getting with my 'state'.
There appear to be a lot of people on this site who need to read some Howard Zinn. Man, some of you are as dense as a Republican.
The Obamazoids have lost their critical minds, just like the right-wing Kool-Aid drinkers. Your inability to assess the reality of the situation is going to lead to a McCain win. Until the truth behind Obama's "mentor" pastor surfaced, I was supportive of Obama. But I won't support a candidate that will inadvertantly lead us into oblivion.
Same hate, different players. Clinton of McCain have never been 20 year parisheners at pro-whitey blame the black man churches, have they? The excuses and backtracking are quite exponential here.
The right must denigrate and silence the Jeremiah Wrights of the world, because when a Black Man speaks truth to power without fear, without compromise, and without promoting a "counter-hate" that serves to feed their racist agenda, they feel threatened, because they ARE threatened.
I tried to point out to one self-described "Liberal" who went off on a Wingnut-style tirade, mostly because he thought it might help his preferred candidate, that there was not anything factually wrong about what the man said, that JW said it, NOT BO, and his seniments are far less objectionable than the poison the pours from that open sewer that passes for Rev Hagee's mouth. Yet, the Republican gleefully accepts that bigot's "endorsement" with gratitude, and there is barely a ripple of concern expressed.
But there advantage to one's Primary agenda in calling attention to the real offenders over in the other party. Scorched earth is no obstacle - let's blow this thing up and pretend to wring our hands over it, amplifying and legitimizing it in a way that lends credibility to the concept that "this" is an issue worth altering a vote over. Better to hand the election to the Republicans and their bigoted, murderous war-profiting political base in a Kamikaze-style charge for "victory" in the primary, than to risk the possibility that sticking to principle and what is important might fail to disrupt Obama's path to the nomination.
I expect this kind of idiotic posturing from most of the media. It is what they do. It is all they know HOW to do. But watching half of the so-called "liberal" base join in turns my stomach.
GoodGod,
Go jump in a lake.
What this country needs is a good dose of "A Man's A Man For A' That" by Rabbie Burns.
No--make that an enema thereof.
Sharkcellar @ 34:
If McCain wins the GE, I'll be the first to do so.
The media is trying to whip this into a frenzy until they actually see heads rolling over this. I knew some of the fundamentalist preachers had used similar language so it's great to see the facts regarding that.
Even Randi Rhodes was all in a tizzy on Friday saying that no child should be subjected to such language. Well, she'd better also campaign that t.v. should be turned off in every home that has a child living in it because I hear questionable language even on the family channel.
I admit to wishing he had thought once, twice, twenty times about what the upshot of using certain inflammatory words would be. However, the gist of what he was saying resonates and resonates especially with minorities. If the media is able to pull the strings on this enough to finally get the knee-jerk reaction they want from the public about this, then I give up. The media refused to get excited about or even report on what some of the churches were pulling during the 2004 campaign. That had a much more far-reaching effect than this should ever have. Pitiful.
Why do Christians continually make the mental jump from worshiping a God who made the heavens and the earth and all living things - to a God who made man made boundaries, (to be fought over) governments (to be fought over) and the host of man made things that have no soul and no life and cannot be saved or converted of forgiven
or damned.
And since when has any born-in-sin human, except Jesus, (if you believe in Christianity) have the red phone to God to know who God is actually condemning? Not even Jesus stood on the Mount and pointed to this that and the other and said GDs you, and GDs that, and GDs the Roman Government and its coinage, etc.
Jesus gave us the above mentioned beatitude, when he stood on the Mount.
GoodGod @ 31:
So, you are walking away from Hillary?
I've made this comment before, but it bears repeating. I was personally offended when I watched the chattering class led by Anderson Cooper and his four pundits discussing the Rev. Wright flap. One of the pundits was Tony Perkins, and I was astonished to hear him attack Obama through Wright and then use the bible to frame his clearly ideological bias. He pointed out that Romans 13 calls Christians to pray for America not attack it. I found this selective argument revealing, since the entire basis of the OT prophets was to blast and rail against the jewish leaders that had strayed from the Word of God. They were attempting to change indifferent behavior to those things God cares about--caring for the orphan and widow. And in most instances, the prophets were killed for their efforts.
The outrage expressed on Fox when Rev. Wright said, "God DAMN America" for creating a system whereby blacks experienced greater injustice than whites is pretty tame stuff when compared to what some of the prophets of OT scripture ascribed to Israel.
The prophet Ezekiel compared idolatrous Israel to a whore that has become insatiable (read in the manner of Catherine the Great):
Ezekiel 23:
I suspect many have not heard this passage taught in church, but it's pretty typical stuff for the vitriolic passion of the prophets castigating a wayward Israel. Even if the metaphor used is a whore with an appetite for well-endowed men.
So, this selective outrage by the right wing betrays a fundamental lack of understanding of the prophetic voice and the manner by which it seeks to awaken its hearer's conscience. It also conflates the nationalistic impulse with the Christian one. A church that is honest to the Word of God, isn't one that drapes itself in the American flag. This sort of misplaced allegiance would bear comparison to the sort of idolatry condemned in the Christian bible.
I've listened to Reverend Wright's sermons. While I think the ones played on endless video loop like the "Dean Scream" were over the top, they were always based in Christian scripture. You may not like his tone, but he has a point.
For example, when Reverend Wright blames the attacks of 911 on the concept of "blowback". Is that really any different than when Ron Paul, on the campaign trail, alluded to the same thing--interestingly, he even garnered applause amongst his libertarian and republican audience. Perhaps Reverend Wright's biggest sin was not allowing more time from the event to make his controversial statements. A week from the events was probably just plain insensitive.
That said, I hope that the media starts looking at the teachings of the likes of Hagee and Parsley, whose teachings are, interestingly enough, often unbiblical. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. But I doubt that will happen. The right-wing "crazy" is now comfortably main stream. Instead, we will have to continue disparaging one of America's great black pastor's for preaching the Word of God as he understood it. What a shame.
Sharkcellar @ 30:
Start with "A People's History of the United States" because I'm sick of seeing arguments from certain factions consist of, "if you don't like it, then leave". It would make more sense, based on U.S. history for them to be the ones that leave.
Sharkcellar @ 30:
The place really suffers from an infestation of trolls, it seems to be getting worse by the day, guess that's what happens whenyour 1 of the world's 50 most powerful blogs
Like Wright, I preached that Sunday after 9/11. Before a white audience, I gave much the same sermon (minus the God damn America.) I called for the congregation and for the nation to repent for our own complicity in the world's evil that had brought such suffering to our doorstep. No one was shocked. It made perfect sense.
The place really suffers from an infestation of trolls, it seems to be getting worse by the day, guess that's what happens whenyour 1 of the world's 50 most powerful blogs
Bigger the bridge, the more room for trolls underneath...
McCain Stream Media is making the Dems look like the Wing Nuts now.
Clever
19 per cent @ 8:
Yes, and I wonder....
I really wonder what Obama's views on that really are.
The first time I really noticed the esteemed Senator was when he penned an article
for Time which called on Democrats to 'reach out...' to evangelicals.
So from the very beginning I've been a trifle concerned about Senator 'Hope's agenda.
Hangin' with Crazy Joe....
His curious votes on FISA and other such...
His comments on SS....
And now, all this talk about his preacher....
Why is this so important? Why is Obama so concerned to protect his church.
What's it got to do with Obama the man of Hope...the new type of politician....who says....
You gotta Believe!
Hmmmmmmmm...........
Believe....believe....believe....that sounds....
Kinda....kinda biblical to me.
How about you?
Fabulous post, Nicole! More like this please!!!
This is especially pertinent on today, Palm Sunday. The day that Jesus rode into Jerusalem on a donkey to symbolize the type of power he claimed; not imperial power, but the power of a community working together in humility.
Thanks!
Blah blah blah. You guys will croon your neck until it breaks to defend any action of Obamas.
Does this term..thou doth protest to much ..ring a bell?
Your over top defense of him and non stop bashing of Hillary Clinton has driven many of us progressives back to ABC/CBS/NBC for our news. You are no longer to be trusted. Your bias is far more exposd than even FOX
Ironic how our courts and places for oaths of truth tend to insist that we swear on a faith, our ability to suspend the effort driven honesty process itself.
"I swear upon my capacity for suspension of working to know reality, that in this court I will deliver only the opposite."
I expect social-networks will someday move past these mystical roots. Folk won't need to fake faith in order to capture honestly needed opportunities.
Uhhhh Dems let's not forget who our real opponents are.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1986607/posts?q=1&;page=1
J.Wright offended me!!I don't really give two shits what his problem is. I've had it with assholes who spend their time whinning-which fits Wright to a tee!!I'm ready willing and able to vote differently-but not for some asshole who thinks J.Wright has anything to say. Jump up and down, scream and shout-J.Wright is still an asshole!!
Bill Young @ 48:
Does the term convoluted thinking ring a bell? Who bashed Clinton in this thread? And how is any of this an "action of Obama's"? And what the hell is "croon"?
Before white folks get too down on Rev. Wright, they might want to consider the fact that the jeremiad, as a rhetorical form, was completely integrated into the sermons of white christian american ministers from very early times in our history. When I heard Rev. Wright's sermon on the tube the other night, all I could think of was Jonathan Edwards' sermon, "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God," required reading in my sophomore year in high school American literature class. Go read it and explain to me why Rev. Wright's sermon is such a big problem. It ain't the content and it ain't the language.
I think I know why it's such a big problem. A lot of white folk can't wrap their minds around the idea that 200 years from now their descendants will have to read "God damn, America" in a required high school American Lit course. I think it just fries people's mental circuits to contemplate the fact that a black guy could be president - which I think will happen. So they're freaking out at the prospect of an African-American minister speaking with moral authority to and perhaps over a white audience. It's the positionality that's causing all the problems.
But I think when folks go polar on Rev. Wright, the best answer is, "well, of course, if you're not a Christian, you wouldn't understand it."
19 per cent @ 8:
Exactly and why is C&L pandering to Obama?
ChrisNBama @ 40:
Great comment. All good points but....
Look how far the Overton Window has moved. After decades of right wing evangelical assaults on our government we now have a Dem candidate whose preacher castigates it from the left.
Myself, I believe that the Rev. Wright has more than a little justice on his side. His comments don't bother me. I salute him for speaking out to protest and hightlight the evil that racism is and how emebedded in our culture it is.
It's Obama who is either confused or trying to demagogue these issues. Church and State were specifically seperated by the Founders for good reasons. Should you imagine that those reasons no longer apply just check out Palestine today.
Obama's correct response should have been, 'My Pastor's religious belief's, indeed mine, are not the concern of the public for under our system of government the church and state are and need to stay separate. I have no intention of setting aside that prudent and good stricture. Next question please.'
But he can't do that and continue to run a quasi-religious campaign built on 'believing'.
If he was as smart as he thinks he is he'd have seen this coming and been prepared. But he's not and now the nation get's to see his
'Deer in the headlights....' imitation.
Pandering to Obama? How so?
RHM
PssttCmere @ 54:
I assume you have examples of this pandering at hand. I'd like to hear them. And am I ever gonna be pissed at C&L for pandering. Who knew?
leftyRC @ 19:
leftyRC, I don't think what Wright was preaching was hate. The black preaching style has a lot of passion and a quality of pitch that sounds foreign to ears that are not used to it. I will admit I have not heard the sermon in question, but I would suspect that the "hate" you hear may really be "anger". Not much of a distinction in that anger can lead to hate (and the Dark Side) which is where I think Hagee et al are. I didn't hear Nicole or Jeff or Diana advocating hate; on the contrary, I heard them pointing out the irony of Wright being accused of it when very clear examples are sitting right in front of the MSM in teh person of Hagee et al.
GoodGod @ 7:
how is this preacher a fanatic?
i peruse many progressive sites, and much of what he says can be found in comments from readers
i dislike what he says about israel and the palestinians, and yet the same thing is said here on an almost daily basis
but ill tell you what, when the repugs disavow all the hate speech that comes from its christian base, then maybe ill care what one chicago preacher is saying
anneyhussein @ 11:
This is a political site, is it not? Can you think past your love of Obama?
In the white heartland, Wright's rant is going to cost Obama votes and if you have an honest bone in your body, you know it is right. And to be honest, I have been in black churches on many occasions and have never heard anything as harsh as what Wright had to say. In the other 11 videos that were gone over, I am sure you can find some other nuggets for you to defend.
mr112 @ 51:
There are some really thoughtful posters on this blog, who offer insights worth reading.
But it is pure torture having to wade through the infantile, double-digit-IQ-sporting, puke-spouting morons who are so completely clueless that they actually believe their words are worthy of public consumption.
You'll have to figure out for yourself into which of those groups you fit.
Obama believes in this guy. That is fact. If this is how he feels about the country that he will supposedly be in charge of . Heaven help us !!
momly @ 58:
I listened to Wright, and that doesn't sound like hate to me either. Listen to anything Coulter says and you have prime example of hate. I think Hagee took lessons from her.
mr112 @ 51:
whining? i think you need to read the church's goals....which hannity so nicely has been repeating for months, as proof that the church hates white people
most of his sermons (which the msm wont replay) dealt with black pride, unity and self sufficiency
so they found a few where he went off on the power structure...big whoop
jules @ 62:
and where in any of his speeches, or any of his deeds in public service, would you be led to believe that obama thinks about the country in anything but a positive light?
first he was the moslem manchurian candidate
now he is a radical christian white hating manchurian candidate
back to redstate with you and your ilk
you know who hates america??? the fucking wingnuts, who with glee have watched the corporations rape our beautiful country and its people
and we had their manchurian candidate in office for 7 years
hope @ 41:
Have you read Voices from: A People's History? He presents excerpts from indentured servant's diaries, Abolitionist, Labor and Women's Right's Speechs as a companion piece for the more straightforward People's History of the United States.
Sunday, March 16, 2008
Statement from Trinity United Church of Christ
"...“Dr. Wright has preached 207,792 minutes on Sunday for the past 36 years at Trinity United Church of Christ. This does not include weekday worship services, revivals and preaching engagements across America and around the globe, to ecumenical and interfaith communities. It is an indictment on Dr. Wright’s ministerial legacy to present his global ministry within a 15- or 30-second sound bite,” said the Reverend Otis Moss III, pastor of Trinity United Church of Christ........
....“It saddens me to see news stories reporting such a caricature of a congregation that has been such a blessing to the UCC’s Wider Church mission,” said the Rev. John H. Thomas, UCC general minister and president, in a released statement. “ … It’s time for us to say ‘No’ to these attacks and declare that we will not allow anyone to undermine or destroy the ministries of any of our congregations in order to serve their own narrow political or ideological ends.”...."
http://unitedchurchofchrist.blogspot.com/2008/03/statement-from-trinity-...
Talk of blowback's a major hot button. Grown men weep and gnash their teeth rather than admit it's the things WE'VE done that merit retribution.
Our Exceptionalism says, "We can do no wrong, and if we do wrong, it's not wrong because, hey, it's us, and we can do no wrong."
See? Why do they hate us again?
The only difference between Rev. Wright and lots of us is that he says out loud what we only think, or yell at the teevee or in the car. Am I alone in this?
Examples:
bu$hler: May Gawwwd continue to bless Amurca.
Me: May God F*CK Amerikkka!
Bumpersticker: God Bless America!
Me: God F*CK Amerikkka!
Our leaders have screwed the pooch. We are not doing what's right. Expect the cosmic whip to come down.
Excellent posts Dr. Stern and ChrisNBama.
mr112 @ 51:
Yeah, black people should get over it... who cares if they have been slaved, treated like shit, and had to fight 100x harder to earn the same rights that you take for granted.
The real victim here, is you sir. Poor white boy, who had to encounter an uppity negro who said some mean things...
After all, a couple hundred years of suffering pales in comparison with the 5 seconds of your day that Rev. Wright managed to ruin.
Oh, the humanity! Mr112 a profile in courage, the poor white man in America suffering silently!
So what is the perceived problem with the Reverend's sermon?
Can someone please point out to me any of his statements that are false?
The attacks on the symbols of economic, military, and political oppression (as represented by the WTC strikes, the Pentagon offensive, and the failed Whitehouse martyrdom operation that ended in Shanksville) were -- in CIA terms -- blowback for five decades of the USA's blindly militarist and corporatist foreign policy in the Middle East.
The Rev simply put it into layman's words in a powerful way that is a tradition of speaking truth to power in the Black churches.
Again I ask, show me any lies in his speech and we can begin a dialogue to remove the blinders from your eyes.
:)
euthyfro @ 66:
No, I haven't, but I will. Thanks for the recommendation.
And to anyone who hasn't read any W.E.B. Dubois, I recommend him also. I love the way he wrote.
A.Citizen @ 55:
I don't think that Obama could, from a political perspective, simply dismiss the questioning coming at him from all quarters. It's difficult to say how your scenario would have panned out. But you may be right. His response that he "wasn't in the pews" when these particular sermons were delivered smacks of a degree of parsing that I find downright Clintonian. Moreover, what happens when Fox digs up someone that can testify to Obama's presence during one of these controversial sermon's...then what? Besides, the effect of his comments buys into the framing created by the right, that what Reverend Wright was saying was unpatriotic.
I don't agree with you on the notion that "change you can believe in" is quasi-religious. What's he's saying is, in effect, "you can take what I say to the bank". Or some such. I don't think "believe" in this context is in any way, shape, or fashion a connotation for faith in the religious sphere.
Thanks for your thoughts and feedback on my post.
SPIN...SPIN...SPIN..... ANYWAY YOU GUYS TRY TO SPIN THIS...... it still remains the fact that barack hussein obama and his wife michelle obama HATES AMERICA AND ALL THIS COUNTRY STANDS FOR. "period"
L.A. Confidential @ 50:
Hand covering heart? Check.
Pin fastened? Check.
Skin white? Check.
Christian name? Check.
Congratulations, you qualify to become Preznit of the United States!
The rest of you can go to the back of the line.
Boy, do those freepers creep me out!
VietVet8666 @ 4:
Is the meaning unclear to you? Languages evolve and dictionaries expand. Your thoughts on the message would be appreciated as always.
Pilot @ 73:
yup....and as we head into a depression caused by the people who say that they really love the country....you keep believing that
Chuckling Canuck @ 70:
he basically said what ron paul has been saying for the past year....just alot louder
of course it was blowback
its always blowback
Pilot @ 73:
And your solution Pilot would no doubt be a CFIT.
Pilot @ 73:
Sure they do. And they're gonna finish this country off.... Oh, wait. There may not be anything left to finish off. Your hatred seems to be misguided.
euthyfro @ 66:
Yes, yes, yes!
Coming soon: The Movie.
hope @ 71:
And preview the movie.
I join the Obamas in hating what bu$hler has turned this country into, and hating how he's perverted everything good we used to stand for.
Obamas or not, bu$hler or not, I hate what the USA does to this world, hiding behind the labels of freedom and democracy. You can get away with this kind of hypocrisy for only so long. We're way overdue.
Statements like this should be seen in the mainstream media, but I guess that will be wishful thinking...
The version of the video of Wright's "inflammatory" statements which I saw was the one broadcast on "Couintdown," the one where immediately afterwards Jonathan Alter called Wright, if I remember correctly, "hysterical." It contained three brief clips of Wright - and I have to admit I didn't see what the big deal was supposed to be.
In one, he said in essence that 9/11 was blowback from US policies in the world, which doesn't strike me as a statement that should be controversial with any but the "they did it because they hate our freedoms" crowd. (He dated events back to Hiroshima, which I expect is pushing it some in relation to present-day motivations, but that doesn't distract from the basic point.)
In another, he said Hillary Clinton can't understand the problems of black people because she isn't black, doesn't have that experience. That conviction is not one universally shared, but it's hardly uncommon and not limited to blacks; some women, for one example, have maintained the equivalent about men. (I will say, though, that at one point he said of Clinton "She's never been called -bleep-." I assumed the bleeped word was "nigger," which prompted me to think "That's true, but on the other hand I doubt Obama has been called 'bitch' or 'cunt,' so there is some degree of balance there.") In that same segment, he said that the US is dominated by "rich white people." And this is supposed to be controversial on exactly what basis?
In the third, he said, as near as I can quote from memory, "God bless America? No, God damn America! It's there in the Bible: the destruction of innocents." That is, damn America for the murder of and mayhem against innocent people for which it is responsible. Granted, the language ("God damn America") may be a bit over the top, but is the sentiment that drives it really questionable? Okay, I can see why this one could be "controversial" because it expresses a truth that most Americans do not see and do not want to see - but seriously, is the charge that the US has been responsible, whether directly or through surrogates, for an appalling amount of death and destruction over - well, let's use Wright's time frame and say the last 60 years - one that can be seriously questioned?
PssttCmere @ 60:
The topic is NOT about politics but rather how a part of African American culture breathes and moves and has its being. It's VERY disappointing that the same old political arguments for and against Barack Obama are showing up in this thread. It could have been a good one otherwise. And this discussion is exactly the one that's needed in the heartland, not political conflicts geting reiterated.
You may have "been in Black churches" but I worked daily for five years with many African Americans as a civil rights investigator, and believe me, I heard much angrier talk around them than Rev Williams expressed in his sermons. I can testify that it's not comfortable to hear about how the white culture has discriminated against, beaten, and murdered "black folks", in addition to destroying their human dignity, and to be cast into that pot because you're white. But listening is what it's all about, not retaliating tit-for-tat or condemning the justified anguish and bitterness of a people. Once people know you've heard them and understand that anguish and bitterness, that's all it takes to create fellowship.
PeterG @ 75 sez:
"Is the meaning unclear to you?"
"Your thoughts on the message would be appreciated as always."
"Languages evolve and dictionaries expand."
Understand -- Not!
Respeakify like newspeak below:
Bad meanization?
Messagization think is doubleplusgood.
;)
anneyhussein @ 83:
Indeed. Being heard is a huge step in healing a world of hurt.
Pudentilla@53: I beg to differ. "Sinners in the Hands of An Angry God" was directed at the people sitting in the pews right in front of Edwards. Wright's tirade is directed at everybody else. Including me.
Yeah, right.
This Jeremiah Wright is just another Jeremiah.
He's another Moses.
He's another Ghandi.
He's another Julia Child.
He's another Jesus.
He's another Martina Hingis.
He's another Bill Haley.
He's another Tiger Woods.
He's another Larry Holmes.
He's another Bobby Fischer.
He's another Joe Lieberman.
A regular Einstein, this guy.
I'm glad to see that there are some smart people on here who know what I'm talking about when I invoke the name of Zinn. Some of you are not as dumb as a Republican, unlike dipshit Jackson Raffety above, a regular shit for brains this guy.
Jeremiah Wright is a great patriot.
He can sing the Star Spangled Banner without even looking at the words.
He can chew two flavors of gum at the same time, while whistling a song and drinking a glass of water.
Hate speech is only in the behind of the beholder, to quote Irwin Corey.
One fellows' hate is another persons' vanilla soda.
Jeremiah Wright is the second coming of St. Francis of Assisi. He is for the birds.
Sharkcellar @ 90:
What gave him away? Ooops, he's gone off again. As if we needed further proof.
to uncle joe...peter G.... and hope .....
HATE IS HATE.... but the obama followers and worshipers are buying into the same " read my lips, but not my intention" bull crap from the muslim barack hussein obama.
hussein obama is here for a reason and that reason is, to bring islam and al qaeda into the main stream. To all you people who are so ready to dismiss this notion look up the name Nadhmi Auchi and his connection to hussein obama.
I wonder how Obama's mother would feel to know that her genetics don't count for anything in this fucked-up racist country.
No. 44 @ 81:
Niiiice. Great preview. Thanks.
Jackson Raffety @ 89:
Listen Mr. Smarty:
Jeremiah Wright has just as much a right to express his beliefs as the next Joe.
Joe has said many things of great import.
I may not agree with everything he said, but the antidote is not to vilify, condemn or make pies in the face of the people with whom one may not agree.
Just because America is cursed by God doesn't mean that it's bad.
Killing millions doesn't make anybody bad. I just think it's time that God got a break from the people and began getting some of the credit she deserves.
Sorry for the double posts. Nothing was happening and I'm used to quick results on C&L.
Pilot @ 93:
much easier to look up the connections between the house of saud and the bush family
wingnuts and truthers....the entire lot is filled with nutjobs
Jackson Raffety @ 91:
I worry about Obama because he is so new, we don't know what his "dirt" is. Is this just one "tip of the iceberg"?? Is there more? Are there going to be videos of him surfacing with him shouting "AMEN!!" after some of his preacher's hate speech, or of his wife doing so? Or will there be something even worse come out that makes this look like nothing. That's the problem with him being so new to the process, we (in the general public) have no idea what his dirt is, and I guarantee you that the GOP will bring it out fully in the GE. Thats why I think ALL his dirt needs to be divulged NOW so he can overcome them now during the primaries.
At least with Hillary we know what her dirt is (the last 16 years the GOP has had a microscope up her rear exposing all), and its old news that isn't very sensational after all these years.
To be up front, Obama lost me last summer when he took up the right-wing talking point that the attitude of secularists in the Democratic party is a problem. And Clinton wasn't my first choice or even fourth choice.
But however we may try to convince ourselves that the Wright Affair can be talked away, this is still politically radioactive to a lot of voters in this country. Sorry, but those are facts. But being an atheist, I tend to favor facts and a sound plan over "hope", "change", "we can", and "believing in".
Sharkcellar @ 34:
Why put all that trash in the lake and ruin it?
Pilot @ 93:
Confirms my suspicion. A pilotless drone not a pilot. Time to punch out dude.
For all you guys supporting what this Wright guy says . . . what then about Obama denouncing him (Wright)???
What happened to the straight-talking Obama? Shouldn't he be supporting his preacher's right to say what he wants? Shouldn't he be explaining how this isn't really hate speech, but a referrendum on America? Instead, Obama punts and denounces his own pastor . . . sad.
Obama does not look good on this one.
From the discussions I have been reading, I think that America has been trying to find its soul again, each person takes from his or her experience to frame what life is and should be, but tolerance and compassion are not to abundant where the few have to much, the many too little. Obama's pastor or preacher is expressing what he sees, hears and history that many of his followers may have witnessed or experienced. The people who don't care or dislike his sermons are the same ones that are uncomfortable about that history. It might be that having a discussion on the differences is a good thing, as you go into the next election cycle, bringing together what should be out in the open to unify everyone, to try to understand the good, bad and the ugly.
go1 @ 100:
Obama listening to a sermon is not a crime.
Dirt is Republicans publicly applauding a bunch of hate-filled religious bigots for years and years and the press treating those Republicans like lilly-white, good, patriotic, Christian Americans.
Bring out the frigging dump trucks.
There is a massive double standard at work here.
Jesus fricking Christ.
go1 @ 104:
I vehemently disagree and strongly condemn the statements that have been the subject of this controversy. I categorically denounce any statement that disparages our great country or serves to divide us from our allies. I also believe that words that degrade individuals have no place in our public dialogue, whether it’s on the campaign stump or in the pulpit. In sum, I reject outright the statements by Rev. Wright that are at issue…. Senator Obama
What part of this do you need explained?
go1 @ 104:
I see a lot of comments from people who believe the reaction to this is extreme. That doesn't equal supporting everything Wright said.
Hope@95 Thank you for bringing that to my attention. I've read a great many histories of the United States from popular to scholarly but that one escaped my attention. I shall enjoy reading it.
Peter G @ 107:
What I need explained is the people on this site who are saying that what the pastor said was ok--nothing wrong with them, and that those statements shouldn't hurt Obama. Yet Obama himself said exactly what you quoted above. Thats the explanation I need.
How can Obama go to church for 20 years to this guy, supporting him, using him for his spiritual inspiration, and now . . . when what the guy preaches becomes public, now he (Obama) denounces him.
Peter denied being one of Jesus' disciples 3 times when he was confronted and Jesus was in trouble. Its just human nature to do as Obama has done--denying his mentor when his mentor gets in trouble--to distance yourself from public scrutiny and humiliation when you think the chips are down, but it doesn't make it right. Not much loyalty or fortitude shown by Obama here.
For Obama to associate himself with a preacher whos says the government gave AIDs to black people is hurting his chances. Hate to say it but Clinton's the best candidate.
Peter G @ 109:
Peter, if you're referring to the "Voices" recommendation. euthyfro gets credit for that. I'll be reading it along with you--sounds very worthwhile.
go1 @ 110:
Since you ask. I spent 20 odd years under the influence of Jesuit priest and Grey nuns and you wouldn't believe how much of their dogma I now abjure. Now Senator Obama was put in the unfortunate position of denying a friend and mentor. He did this in a straightforward and ruthless manner if you will. Presidents are often called upon to make similarly painful decisions. If you want a good example of where misplaced loyalty leads I suggest you look at the current president. Ask the residents of New Orleans what they think of Heckuvagoodjob Brownie.
go1 @ 110:
I'm still waiting to hear from someone that has come to the conclusion that this sermon is indicative of what's been the norm for Wright's sermons for the past 20 years, to tell me how they know this. Are there copies of every sermon he's given over 20 years that you've read through and can now say he's always included inflammatory remarks in every sermon? Where are the facts from which you draw your conclusion that Obama should have distanced himself from this pastor long ago?
Jeremiah being compared to Martin Luther King?
King was an original.
He put his body and his life on the line.
He changed the country.
What has Wright done?
Jackson Raffety @ 89:
Hey, listen. Jeremiah says God has condemned us, but NOT PERMANENTLY!
Rejoice brethren and sisteren.
Obama is here to save us and lift us up from the pit of hatred (except for Hillary).
Epiphany. Sound the bells.
GoodGod @ 31:
Go judge and condemn elsewhere, all you are doing is help the wingnuts spread their hateful, narrow minded propaganda.
There was a quote in a book about RFK I read once where he "comforted the afflicted and afflicted the comfortable." In a sense, that is what Wright is trying to do.
Randy Orane @ 115:
Spoken truth to power.
go1 @ 104:
Fortunately, Obama is not small time and judgmental like you, he spoke his mind in an honest and straightforward way and if that's not sufficient for you, too bad. Get a grip.
So what do you think about Mc Cain taking Hagee's money? Or did you just conveniently forget to have a problem with that?
JP @ 111:
Bullshit. Where's your proof? Clinton's campaign director, Mark Penn is the corporate pimp who prepped Erik Prince of Blackwater into lying his ass off before Congress. And I guess you don't have a problem with Gerry Ferraro and her trash talking mouth either.
You people need to get the log out of your eye before telling others about the speck in theirs.
Comparisons are, by their very nature, invidious - but it was wrong when Falwell and Hagee said it and its wrong now. Hate is hate. Dressing it up in religious overtones only makes it worse, in my opinion.
When was the last time a national religious figure said anything positive?
Hows about Wrights trips to the Cuba and Libya after the attack in 84 to meet with the terrorists then with Farrikan. Was that made up too.
You need a link???
http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2007/8/8/194812.shtml
Here ya go.
Kefa @ 122:
Thanks so little for the irrelevant history lesson. If what Wright does gets you all excited, then you'll have a stroke when you read this:
www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2008/02/28/donohue/index.html
People like you are such hypocrites.
It's one thing to say 'Those dudes hate America/want to kill yanks because some Americans did them wrong in the name of America" and another to say 'America' deserved it because...or America caused them to want to...'. There sure are some 'America can do no wrong folks' in the mix but there are also quite a few 'my friend/cousin/brother/ friend of a brother/etc..got killed in NY, DC and they had f23k-all to do with that'. Those particular people and the folks in the hinters and beyond who more readily sympathize with that aren't gonna be cool with that being used as a point in a sermon as a way to bring folks together. How are the folks from out there in the U.S. who don't know any black people, real or imagined, but who voted for OB and were going to vote for him going to connect the dots on this one? Remember, the only times OB has spoken 'black', 'to black people' specifically has been in SC and Missip. to a mostly black 'audience'. He never talked that way, i.e. ' okie doke', 'bamboozled', in the other speeches to mostly whites. That 'bamboozled' business is from one of Malcolm X's speeches by the way, also used in some of my favorite old school rap, P.E, B.D.P. This reminds these folks in the Mid-west, BFE...that Obama is a 'black', is still of and in that group and should receive any and all the treatment that I reserve for all of the people in that group. The deal with the preacher may be somewhat about the 'hate speechifying', real or hyped, but I think it will have more folks seeing him now as willingly leaning towards a group that he is a member of (he's certainly not one of us) that has a special place in their hearts. Did Jesse Jackson have a prominent white stripe in his Rainbow coalition campaign lit.? If not, that, and his afro, did not help him. No matter how 'wright' on' he was, these folks only get there exposure of Blacks from television, music and movies...where their continues to be a lack of consistent powerful, positive examples,...if a part or most of OB's appeal came from him being seen by these folks as the positive, safe negro before this, how are they gonna see him now? A backlash of some degree is certain, especially from people who already voted for him. How much and to what effect remains to be seen. Having the intention to bring folks together who aren't too familiar is great but if you want people to understand where you are coming from, to care where you are coming from and not scare them from caring, don't attack them to get their attention. Regardless of whatever else he says, if he would have said 'God damn Israel, Japan, France or (insert-country, sex, religion, race, any group identifier), some people of that group would not agree that they were responsible for whatever it is he was blaming them for and almost of them would be correct. It's as if someone on the street started blaming you (a white person) and any other proximate person for whatever it is that some white people did in the past that was f123ed up on grand scale to that person's group. You can probably muster some sympathy, or even alot but naturally if you have a well developed guilt inducer, you are gonna feel pinched a bit since you can't really do what a well intentioned person would do and try and right the wrong. Sympathy aside it's still not cool to do because the lack of effectiveness in that approach should not be a new realization to anyone. Sure, Wright was not thinking of folks outside of his Church, community, etc. listening to his sermons when he was giving them but he and OB knew there was stuff that he has said in the past and continues to say, probably because he believes it, that would not fly with the particular groupings of people he has mentioned in those sermons. Sorry...saw the link earlier, can't find it...that is all. As you were.
The Fat Lady Sings @ 121:
1. Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson said America is damned — cursed by God, though not permanently — because we tolerate feminists and queer people.
2. John Hagee says America is damned — cursed by God, though not permanently — because we tolerate Muslims.
3. Jeremiah Wright says America is damned — cursed by God, though not permanently, suffering from hate and division, from bitterness and envy — because we succumb to hating one another.
Which one is hatred again? They all look alike to you?
JP @ 111:
Rev Wright is definitely not the first one to say this, nor will he be the last.
And it's not out of the realm of possibility either.
It's been said often and by many that "White Man" tried to wipe out the Native American population via blankets exposed to small pox.
Google is your friend.
That doesn’t mean it’s a sentiment for a campaign trail.
Shouldn't it be? I want someone who will lead us, not tell us what we want to hear in order to get elected.
I am not happy with Obama's disavowal of this courageous, truth-inspired man (former marine!) I've been generally supportive of Obama, but this castigation of Wright seems like "same ol, same ol" politics to me.
Don't know if this was posted already...if so, it's definitely repost worthy and a great read:
"Obama's Minister Committed "Treason" but When my Father Said the Same Thing He Was a Republican Hero"
~Frank Schaeffer
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/frank-schaeffer/obamas-minister-committe_b...
Fools believe lies.
Foolish Democrats will be divided.
So I guess Obama was for Reverend Wright before he was against him?
Yeah, that'll fly (again).
ezpz @ 126:
Reminds me of the Tuskegee Syphilis Experiment on Black men that occurred between 1932 and 1972, who were surely grandfathers and fathers of people who are now very angry and bitter.
anneyhussein @ 131:
I know.
Even more recently than that:
"A new BBC documentary exposes how the city of New York has been forcing HIV positive children under its supervision to be used as human guinea pigs in tests for experimental AIDS drug trials.
All of the children in the program were under the legal guidance of the city’s child welfare department, the Administration for Children’s Services. Most live in foster care or independent homes run on behalf of the local authorities and almost all the children are believed to be African-American or Latino."
http://www.democracynow.org/2004/12/22/guinea_pig_kids_how_new_york
(I even heard something more recent than that.)
There's so much out there....
http://www.communicationagents.com/sepp/2005/02/10/azt_nevirapine_do_ant...
haven't read the thread text or comments, but wanted to post this:
just finished watching “JOHN ADAMS”… powerful… engrossing… enlightening!
one beautiful example of relevancy: during one meeting of the continental congress, a proclamation from king george was read, after which the president of the congress says, as is protocol, “god save the king”…
and one of the representatives (which? my memory is so bad), replies, sternly,
loudly, “god DAMN the king!”
and the ball went rolling, nonstop, from there…
fantastic movie…
but, damn that king’s english! it takes a while to get used to!
ha!
maybe our own congress took the time to watch their history also…
...
just gotta say this too:
124 andrelee - "paragraphs are your friend" -bb
No. 44 @ 118:
This is insulting.
Wright took no risks.
What power did he confront?
Comparing him to MLK is insane and sickening.
The only reason you folks are wasting time talking about this guy who doesn't have much to say that many others haven't said better is because he is associated with Obama.
BaScOmBe @ 125:
You want Wright to be, well, right - so you will see a difference no matter what anyone says. That's why the word 'belief' is often coupled with the word 'blind'.
Anthology @ 135:
"Wright took no risks", you say?
I would think passionate preaching while Black is a risk in and of itself.
Obama embrace Rev Wright as a close spiritual adviser for almost 20 but still insists he knew nothing about the pastor's race baiting opinions. That is like a piano player at a whore house claiming he had to idea about what was happening upstairs. Obama might try to sell that garbage; but I aint buying.
Great. Obama fans have listened to Rev. Wright's words and came to
understand his context.
So the general election will be no problem.
Plenty of time to harangue everyone to their way.
Plenty of room in fools paradise.
whizkid @ 140:
Try listening better yourself before you judge and condemn others with your simplistic tripe.
My My My. Some people here are still in a complete state of denial about the ramifications and damage of this Pastor's utterances to BO.
While this explanation might make sense to YOU the "enlightened few" it will not CHANGE the perception that these disclosures have created in the minds of the vast majority of the "unenlightened" out there who will be voting for who will be the POTUS.
You may not want to hear this and some of you can swear all you like at people who may pointing out things you may not WANT TO HEAR.
Understand this. These revelations have all but killed his candidacy. The Repugs will have field day with him in a general election.
Jeremiah Wright says America is damned — cursed by God, though not permanently, suffering from hate and division, from bitterness and envy — because we succumb to hating one another...That doesn’t mean it’s a sentiment for a campaign trail. But it does mean that in framing this, we might want to turn our anger toward Fox and the NY Post...
I'm absolutely opposed to the spewing of hate that media outlets like Faux and the NY Post and most of talk radio (right and left) embrace and practice. But if we "turn our anger" on them, aren't we embodying the very hate-mongering that Wright (and *numerous* others of us here on C&L) abhor?
Who would Jesus hate? Buddha? Mohammed? Gandhi? Rev. King? Would they revile the haters...or would they find a way to forgive them, "for they know not what they do"?
And hey, I certainly don't pretend to have the answer. I'm just asking. It just seems that "hating them back" defeats our purpose...and leaves us all just as full of hate.
bmw H. 528 @ 141:
Keep spinning, Obama's campaign is over, Now that we are starting to see the real Obama his teflon covering is slowly peeling off.
Truer words were never spoken. Nice.
The Rev. Wright's beef will backfire on the Obama haters. Obama handled this nicpicking eloquently.
Also, why would hillary use a SNL skit to make a point about the MSM not pounding on Obama ? (the pillow remark)
Your wish has been granted, hillary.
Next hillary will use The Family Guy to make a point. I believe parodies of politicians shouldn't be a talking point. It's a weak, cheap, cartoonish and shallow tactic.
Make your own points hillary instead of promoting SNL.
Sheeeesh
Obvious some of the poster don't understand Rev. Wright sermon. He doesn't spew hate, he talks about hate and who is causing the hate.
To the posters who still don't want to understand, Rev. Wright is talking about you and the hate and the vivid stupidness you spew. You have a guilty conscience, I say.
Go Obama!
Go USA!
To me, the advent of the Jeremiah Wright story is the most intriguing development on the political front to date. Right wingnuts are falling all over themselves in frantic attempts to castigate Obama, as witness the neocons at Fox, preparing cue cards for Johnnie Boy McPain to use against Barack in the fall. Even the somewhat liberal Fox commentator (token black and token liberal) Juan Williams, joined in on Fox Noise Sunday to put down Obama for not going far enough to distance himself from the Rev. Jeremiah Wright of the (Chicago) Trinity United Church of Christ. (Incidentally, some folks may not know that there are, essentially, two "Churches of Christ." The United Church of Christ is at the opposite end of the spectrum from the Church of Christ. The former is a liberal, culturally diverse organization that even welcomes gays, while the latter is a tight-assed, narrow-minded bunch of literalist, bigoted bozos -- Obama would not be caught dead in a Church of Christ.)
But if you examine what Rev. Wright said in that fiery last sermon, you might actually agree with him. I know I do. First, he said that the government of America has long engaged in sending young men abroad to murder people in lands the troops probably didn't even known existed and that -- an obvious allusion to 9/11 -- "the chickens have come home to roost." (Fox Noise and the neocons would like you to think that Wright was saying that we brought 9/11 upon ourselves, and he WAS, only not like Falwell and Robertson were telling it -- that 9/11 was brought upon us by our sinnin', by which they meant abortion and homos.)
Then Wright said Hillary had no idea what it was like to be black, to be persecuted by whites, which is obviously true, too. But what he meant by the statement is that it's hardly surprising that so many American blacks have rejected the Clintons; not that Bill wasn't "good" to blacks (he was), but because Hillary has no soul. Yeah, yeah, I voted for her, but that was to get a woman elected president. I may yet vote for Obama in the general election and won't be sad if Hillary isn't the nominee.
Then, and with specific reference to our disastrous foreign policy and especially making war on foreign people -- all of our meddling in the affairs of sovereign nations abroad -- he said that the slogan "God bless America" really should read, "God damn America!" If you aren't genuinely alienated by our government, completely grossed out by what they're doing in the world, you get defensive and patriotic, and patriotism, as Dr. Johnson said, is the last refuge of the scoundrel. I am a white man who agrees with Rev. Wright and who thinks Obama shouldn't distance himself from the pastor, but explain what Wright means to a duped, doped nation.
But Obama can't do the right thing. The GOPS are going to play Wright's sermon in ads for McPain right up until November, attempting to besmirch Obama's image in an obvious McCarthy tactic: guilt by association. And although I think Obama should not be in such a great hurry to condemn Wright, the pragmatist in me suggests that he must.
It's all so sad.....
Are you f**ing for real! It is not his GOD DAMN America it is his racist tone that has sunk The Messiah Obama! Do not try to limit his rants to one specific GOD DAMN remark PLEASE! BE REAL. Rev. Wright has put his church together with a US AGAINST THEM RALLY CRY. BLACK AGAINST WHITE black against white government. What better way to galvanize a group of people then against a common foe. It works every time! Don't be HOODWINKED OKEY DOKED OR BAMBOOZLED BY THIS SMOKE SCREEN OF GOD DAMN WHEN IT IS TRUE RACISM AND HAND HERE.
But that is the problem in a nut shell. The far right wing churches are a mindless cult. If you don't believe every single word preached you are no longer welcome. As a Unitarian Universalist, yes those heathens, we are taught a way of examining the world and those around us to make our own decisions what to believe.
Could anyone ever imagine what would be the reaction in the mega-churches if a member suddenly announced that he or she had decided Genesis chapters One and Two are a parable and evolution is the way life developed? I wonder how long it would take them to run him or her out the door. They would be trying everything they could think of to save the sinner. If they could not make him "see the light" he would be shunned worse than an apostate Amish man.
rick bensco @ 148:
Have you ever attended Trinity UCC in Chicago? You claim to know all about it. Have you listened to every sermon? While I have never attended the church, I know people (White ministers) who have. I will take Doctor Martin Marty's word over yours any day.
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