Stein On Spitzer: Elections Are More Important Than Hookers
By Logan Murphy Saturday Mar 15, 2008 8:02pm
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This morning on CBS' Sunday Morning Ben Stein gave his take on the Eliot Spitzer scandal and his thoughts may surprise you. I'm no fan of Stein, but I think he may have made some valid points. As with many political scandals involving sex, it's the naughtiness that gets the coverage and many important issues are often overlooked. As Stein puts it, it sets a dangerous precedent when a handful of appointed officials brings down elected officials, seriously impacting the will of the voters.
"...However, in Governor Spitzer's case he got humiliated, disgraced and then the voters lost the guy they voted for. It is deeply scary to me that a few employees of the federal executive branch can start a train rolling that has such immense effects on the electoral process. Basically a few career civil servants have nullified the will of the voters of the Empire state, over something clearly wrong, I don't doubt that, but it's not a political crime, not treason, not terrorism..."
What do you think? Does he have a valid point?
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Ben what happened did you grow a brain, No right wing BS to tell us
Hey, nobody can be wrong ALL the time.
Craig @ 2:
Nice to think so but Bremer in the previous post gives you a tough argument on that.
Spitzer broke the law. His former job was prosecuting law breakers. He should have resigned. David Vitter should also resign.
I find it curious that two people vigorously defending Eliot Spitzer are Ben Stein and Alan Dershowitz.
Seriously. If the man needs a BJ here and there to keep Wall Street on their toes, well then...
Jeffrey Stewart @ 4:
He should have been more careful with his own morality.
The Department of Justice is working for the Republican party. This is the THIRD Governor the Neocons have removed by illegal means (Siegelman, Gray Davis, Spitzer).
Gray Davis was removed by vote-fraud the DoJ no longer investigates.
How many Republican Governors? ZERO. They know which side they are playing on, and they have the spying to find the peccadillos.
They should just move DC to Nevada.
Makes me wonder how many of his 'friends' he's trying to protect.
No. If the problem is that the justice system was improperly used to reverse an election, then the solution is to clean up the Department of Justice.
I know Mr. Stein would love to place politicians above the law (especially now that the Bush Administration is so exposed), but I'm not buying it. Unlike Republicans, some of us actually MEAN it when we say we're for the rule of law.
"What do you think? Does he have a valid point?"
No.
He's spewing a variation of the argument he is foisting on America with his new movie, Expelled (poor, oppressed, creationist academic, done in by the powerful, evil, behemoth BIG SCIENCE).
Get that turd our of my face.
Ben Stein still remembers that "the will of the people" was nullified when his old boss, Tricky Dick, was forced to step down. Nice of him to set the bar for removal at treason, terrorism, or a political crime (what ever that is).
Spitzer broke the law--repeatedly. He was right to resign, and if he didn't he should have been impeached.
All this tells us is that Ben has "hooked up" at least a few times in his day. (How else is someone as dull as him gonna get laid?)
Look, it would be different if Spitzer wasn't who he was. He was the guy going after every other guy that was doing what he got caught at. His biggest problem wasn't the whores, it was Hypocrisy.
who cares, has baseball stsrted yet?
much better scandals there, just ask rodge
fucket up cuntry, used to be the good 'ole us of a...
thanks 43
There is a question in my mind as to why they were investigating Spitzer in the first place. It didn't start with them looking for him soliciting prostitutes and it seems they had no pre-existing evidence of any crime. Only that he was withdrawing inordinate quantities of money from the bank, even that, not so much for a rich man. It seems pretty clear to me they were out to get him on anything they could dig up.
If Spitzer had campaigned on being an adultering hypocrite, so you think he would have won the govenrship?
No. This ultra-liberal Democrat says Spitzer had to go.
Valid Point? or one pre-wrapped, off-the-shelf 2009 GOP talking point meant to salvage the next batch of pantless Republicans caught in the act at the Mayflower hotel. These PR hypocritters have every angle covered.
For all they knew, he could have been using that money to support a mistress. Unsavory yes, but hardly the stuff that should motivate a criminal investigation.
Ben Stein still owes an apology to all the people he said were idiots for opposing Bush's tax cuts. He now thinks they were a bad idea.
"... but it’s not a political crime"
What "political crimes" are there on the books?
That's a valid point as it applies to Democrats and sex crimes. Because Democrats don't run on morality. When a Retardlican gets caught wearing diapers with a whore it's a TOTALLY DIFFERENT MATTER ENTIRELY.
Or a Bible thumping cocksucker like Craig. Shit, those guys should not only be run out of town they should be locked up.
This is the second surprising train of thought from Ben Stein in as many weeks. See here for a link to his NY Times piece where he actually admits tax cuts don't pay for themselves!
http://cmhmd.blogspot.com/2008/03/what-mccain-could-do-about-taxes-ben.html
or http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/09/business/09every.html?_r=1&sq=ben%20st...
Cheers,
Ben is demographically motivated on this one, make no mistake.
17 Snowball Says: For all they knew, he could have been using that money to support a mistress. Unsavory yes, but hardly the stuff that should motivate a criminal investigation.
Suposedly, they give the excuse that they thought he was being blackmailed.
Tilby @ 11:
Good answer. I'd forgotten about his Nixon connection.
There is only one reason Spitzer resigned and that's the upcoming elections. Period.
Yes he's right. It should have been up to the voters to decide whether to impeach him or not, through their reps. And if they did not impeach he should have been immune to prosecution until he was no longer governor. Seems obvious.
I would love to believe it so; but at the end of the day Eliot Spitzer was brought down as a fraud, not a libertine.
I think he is right in implying that it was a hit job. I don't agree that Spitzer should not have resigned over it or that the will of the people has been undone. I think it is safe to say that it is the will of the people that their leaders obey the laws they are enforcing. If only it were true.
Not really.
It's a shame he is gone, but hypocrisy cannot be tolerated.
The DoJ needs to somehow be returned to its former nonpartisan status.
Hell yes he has a point. Which is why this country should emulate South Africa, and in January, 2009, establish a Truth and Reconciliation Tribunal.
If Spitzer hadn't stepped down, he would have been impeached by the legislature, who are the "guy(s) they voted for." what's more he's being replaced by Jefferson, who if Stein hadn't noticed, was also "the guy they voted for". Kinda like what happened to one of Stein's former bosses, you remember, the one with the tape system in his office..
Vitter (R), guilty of using prostitutes: still in office
Craig (R), guilty of indecent actions: still in office
Spitzer (D), resigns
what's wrong with this picture?!!
Spitzer stepped down on his own accord. He could've fought it and faced impeachment. I personally think the top law enforcement official of a state should resist the urges to visit whore houses, or otherwise choose another position to serve the state in. On the point about treason. I think you are correct. This in no way compares to the obvious acts of Treason & Terrorism committed by the Bush Administration and Congress. Stolen Elections. Pre-emtive War. Loss of Rights. Malfeasance in regards to 9/11. Corruption in everything. Failure to Honor the Constitution.
Okay, Spitzer broke a federal crime by bringing a prostitute over a state line. A crime that hurts nobody except him and his family. If the DOJ didn't get him on that, they would have had to set him up. Stein is right though, it is a method to control free elections.
Republican economy update:
Greenspan sees worst financial crisis since WWII http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/03/16/bear-stearns-forced-to-se_n_917...
I would agree with Stein. You have to respect the democratic process. Republicans clearly despise democracy, as can be seen in their out and out glee at disenfranchising minorities and the poor (Florida, Indiana, etc.). The cases of Bill Clinton and Gray Davis are also illustrative: just as the people elected these two, Republicans were simultaneously working to un-elect them. I firmly believe that if Al Gore had been elected in 2000, by whatever margin, he would have been impeached. On what grounds? Oh, Tom Delay would have made up something and the media would have gone along. The case of Spitzer is different to me, though. I have not yet seen any credible evidence of conspiracy. The real story of Eliot Spitzer is that one should be nice to others on the way up, because you'll meet them again on the way down. Nobody and I mean Nobody came to this guy's defense. Burning bridges as he did in his political career: Spitzer was doomed anyway.
i cannot but admire the rabble in arms of the revolutionary war! would that thier were still such men in america!!!!!!!!!
This should be a personal matter between Spitzer and his wife. He was doing a good job and someone wanted to get rid of him.
I am SURE that congress has more than it's share of gays and adulterers.
The Repugs have engulfed Washington and they are out to ruin anyone who is a threat. They are a very dangerous party.
Craig @ 2:
Michelle Malkin? Melanie Morgan? Bill Kristol? The current administration? *wink*
Paul in LA @ 6:
For the record, Gov. John Rowland (R-Conn.) resigned in the face of federal corruption charges in 2004. He spent 10 months in prison.
In that case, the feds didn't have much choice but to investigate, as the scandal was extensively covered in the local press.
Poorer Richard @ 33:
I agree. If we're gonna get our knickers all in a twist over sexual improprieties (and I think it's a waste of time when there are much more egregious crimes being committed), let's approach it the same way for everyone. Spitzer was expected to resign, how about Vitter? You'd think more people would be outraged by the diaper-wearing guy.
For those who are so headstrong about "the law is the law" , I'd be interested in knowing where they draw the line.
if he was driving 60 in a 55, would that be reason to step down? Honestly you could make the argument that 60 in a 55 is far more endangering to the public than a ridiculous sex crime.
OT, but to quote Plankton:
"OH MY GOODNESS!!!!!"
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/jpmorgan_bear_stearns
Talk about crooks and liars!
To quote Plankton again:
"Goodbye everyone! I'll remember you all in therapy!"
Beuler, B e u l e r, B E U L E R? Ben has said a couple of reasonable things lately. About six months ago he was on Fox News and said the conversion of social security to stocks was insane. I thought the pumpkin headed Fox economic guy's head was going to explode as he tried to get Ben to say just the opposite. But Ben stood fast like the Rock of the Marne. Well done, Ben.
Paul in LA @ 6:
He wasn't removed. Spitzer resigned. Craig and Vitter haven't resigned. Vitter got a standing ovation from his Republican colleagues for breaking the law.
A stopped clock is right twice a day.
Ben Stein is full of shit.
Politically, it's a question of impeachability. He wasn't charged. Spitzer himself short circuited that process by resigning. He could have toughed it out and made his case. He didn't. Whether the charges were politically charged or somehow improper remains to be seen but it wasn't the the case of the a few career civil servants nullifying the voters will.
More generally, it seems to me when it comes to corruption it is ONLY the career civil servants that can creditably handle political cases. Look at what Bush has done to the Justice Department, To denigrate the civil service in this case suggests to me that what Stein wants is more politicization of the process not less.
I don't think it's any secret the Republicans through election fraud, voter disenfranchising, voter roll purging, voter intimidation, paperless electronic voting machines, supreme court tampering, issuing recalls, justice dept employees on fishing expeditions will thwart the American democratic process given any opportunity.
The United States of Adolescence strikes again.
The Neo C's play this puritan bullshit the same way they play the religious bullshit. Applicable to others only.
Who cares if a guy hires a hooker? Ooh! Across state lines! Quick, reopen Alcatraz.
If they'd hit JFK with this crap we'd be in the fifth decade of nuclear winter.
America, go home. I hear your mommy calling you.
Stein has a point:
http://i27.tinypic.com/2vjydg4.jpg
Seems he is desperate to gain some semblance of credibility. He is probably thinking: "Well, it's now too late to do anything about it, since Spitzer resigned, so I'll pretend to be upset this happened against him. That will make me seem reasonable."
This is a Bush "hit job" on Spitzer just as he was about to "out" this administration for it's involvement in the sub-prime debacle. Remember the Carlyle Group? That group of Saudis which includes Pappy Bush? The ones who were exported out of this country on 9/12 when air space was closed to air traffic? They're in it up to their eyeballs.
What do you think? Does he have a valid point?
To say I am shocked to hear that from BS is an understatement. However, he is spot on. Like BS, I am fed up with the neo-cons constant use of character assignation to further their agenda. It is completely out of control.
please... Stein's still crying about how W. Mark Felt prevented his old boss from helping the Cambodians or some nonsense like that. Democrats expect their elected officials to act with the highest integrity. If it had been just an affair (as with Clinton) or if it had been a clearly harmless illegality like smoking a joint in his off hours, then I could let it go. Aside from the adultery and the destruction of his family, Spitzer didn't commit the worst wrong ever, but it's still a wrong, not to mention the possibly illegal financial shenanigans that accompanied it. I'm totally fine with Spitzer being all but forced to step down.
What do you think? Does he have a valid point?
What do I think? Hmm. Listening to the guy, I think he's afraid he's about to be caught with his own pants down, on some tape or film, paying call girls heaps and heaps of money.
But seriously.....
Yeah, he has a valid point -- to an extent. Is paying a ton of money to hookers the kind of crime that rises to a level so high that it warrants Spitzer's impeachment and/or resignation? Not in my opinion. Though, as many people here rightly point out, it's really the hypocrisy that enrages people, what with Spitzer's having made a career out of law and order, and busting people like himself. Does that rise to the level of a career-ruining crime? Ehh, I don't really think so personally, but I understand that concept much more.
As for the integrity of the democratic process, please. This doesn't call it into question. Spitzer didn't have to resign. He could have appealed to the people for mercy, and fought his impeachment, if indeed, he did actually get impeached. (I would imagine that he considered it, and thought he wouldn't get that mercy from the people or their elected representatives, in which case, democracy would seem to be working.) If such an impeachment would mark an abuse of the impeachment process, that's a different argument, and might call into question the open-endedness of either New York's (or the U.S's by analogy) impeachment text. But this little episode doesn't say anything about the integrity of the democratic process.
Oh, and something else really struck me about Stein's comments. He kept noting that male officials routinely go to prostitutes, and that when males are caught soliciting or having sex with prostitutes, they're simply fined. They don't have their lives ruined over such a thing.............
Funny thing, the females who actually are the prostitutes are routinely tossed in jail, and do have their lives ruined over it. It's an infuriating double-standard, especially when the women (for whom I have often had to unsuccessfully fight in court) are so often just trying to earn enough money to feed their children.
My ultimate thoughts on this whole sordid event? I don't like that Spitzer is such a hypocrite, but beyond that I don't give a shit that he goes to prostitutes. Prostitution should not be a crime at all. The federal government certainly has no jurisdiction over the matter under the Constitution, and there is no sound rationale for any state to make prostitution a crime either.
I was not shocked by the revelations at all. Aren't these sex scandals par for the course now? Until our society sheds its puritanical unease with our basic sexual desires, we're always going to have these ridiculous stories. If we don't want sex scandals to ruin people's lives, let's stop thinking about sex as something illicit or immoral! It's the 21st Century already, for crying out loud!
Lost the guy they voted for? Seriously? I don't think that many of them knew they were voting for "Johny Ho-Bag Hypocrite." Honestly, how many lives did this guy screw up, interfering with illegal activities that objectively were nobodies business but the Johns and Hookers? Those people's shame is now his shame. He totally earned it. He's a disgrace.
This has all of the hallmarks of the Valerie Plame situation. These thugs in the WH are using old mafioso tactics. Spitzer was about to blow the white house into the next century and out them for their involvement in it. Sure, they eventually found a way to silence him so it was definitely political but this is definitely not over. There are plenty of others who now will come forward as Spitzer was about to and indict the entire Bush Cabal.
Snowball @ 15:
Perhaps one thing they didn't appreciate was this article he wrote for the Washington Post on the 14th of Feb. (yes, the day after his "appointment") in which he accuses the administration of preventing states from protecting their citizens from predatory lending.
http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/031208J.shtml
Not good to get the hoi polloi all tense about something.
Was todays statement a reflection of Mr. Stein's views of the impeachment effort against Bill Clinton? That certainly was an attempt to overturn an election. I don't recall him rushing to Clinton's defense?
Unlike Spitzer at the time Clinton was relying on amateur talent and not expending public, campaign funds or crossing State lines. Ken Starr may have caught Clinton in a lie and Clinton was eventually forced to confess. That is when he became a sympathetic figure to the public. Before there were written laws there was such a thing as good manners. No gentleman should ever divulge any information about a relationships with a woman. It was hurtful to his family and hurtful to the woman. That is basic good manners something Ken Starr forgot.
Maybe Mr. Stein has finally learned something valuable. It is troubling that a powerful reform NY Governor was forced out over such a private matter that is distasteful but common. Perhaps Mr. Stein is feeling the presence of a newly minted Gestapo loose in the land and hearing the distinct sound of SS like jackboots echoing from the 1930's.
Paul in LA @ 6:
davis was not removed by voter fraud...he was removed when he and the state got screwed by the lack of oversight
the bush wh allowed enron and other power companies to rape the state
davis' prob was that he was too stupid to see this until it was too late
cali has yet to be reimbursed for this rape, and is not even allowed to sue
I'm with Karen on this. I just remembered the stories about Stein picking up call girls to "educate them" on financial matters.
Brad @ 57:
Sounds like the mirror is up for you on this one, eh? Either that or you're obviously myopic or simply uninformed. Check Greg Palast's article about what Spitzer was really up to that had Bush and his criminal cabal very, very nervous. There's much more to this story and the truth will come out. Besides, speaking of ho-hypocrites, how about the Repuke's own gang of thugs like Vitter, Foley, Hastert, Boehner....just to name a few GOP scumbags.
Otay @ 62:
I'm guessing he taught them how to "barter" -- education in return for something.
Know what's more important than hookers or the election and much more pertanent to your life? The economy, stupid!
Bear Sterns has been bought for $2 per share, down from 60 on Friday. Asian markets are tanking. US markets scheduled to tank bad tomorrow morning.
osiris @ 58:
Hopefully, they get someone not stupid enough to get caught with his pants down.
Spitzer could not be much of a threat if he was dumb enough to be caught on tape requesting escort services worth several thousand dollars a pop.
If this idiot could not master the basics, I am not holding my breath to have any of these buffoons to be able to handle the complex stuff.
The Bush Cabal needs to be careful what they ask for. By making Spitzer the center of attention now, the truth about what he was up do, whose feathers he was ruffling, and the big guys at the top and their complicity in the sub-prime nightmare which is tanking this country economically right now will become front and center. In that regard, it's fine for Eliot to fall on his sword. Now the details of why he was spied on and/or framed will be widespread and not relegated to some small corner of a local newspaper.
Jeffrey Stewart @ 4:
Stein isn't talking about whether Spitzer should resign now that he's been caught.
the initials BS are appropriate for that condescending piece of shit.
The Dude @ 66:
Maybe it wasn't stupidity at all with Spitzer? Maybe it was all part of his plan to make this scandal world news? We might find out that the stupid ones were the Bush Cabal who may be outed for their part in the financial situation in this country and what we did to the international community by selling junk bonds as AAA. Just a thought...
Tilby @ 11:
You know, that's actually very true. Stein is on record talking about how Nixon should not have resigned, and how what he did was such a minor, teensy-weensy crime that all presidents commit.
is spitzer a hypocrite.....yes
did the irs, justice and the fbi go on a fishing expedition....yes
should what happened be troubling to everyone? absolutely
Redman @ 60:
is there any evidence that spitzer used public or campaign funds?
stop parroting what you heard on fox...they lie
osiris @ 63:
I would like to see this administration fully unmasked and held accountable. I'd like to see the trash taken out. I agree with your points, except the ones pointed at me. Do you disagree with my assertion?
Karen @ 56:
Good post Karen...a voice of reason...all this righteous bullshit (he committed a crime! he's a hypocrite!) makes me wanna puke. He got some nookie from a prostitute...call fucking 60 minutes! When he went after prostitution rings, he went after the organizers and money launderers, not the johns, so the hypocrite rant is way overblown. My guess is most New Yorkers don't give a shit if he hooked up with prostitutes. Spitzer was one of the few prosecutors who went after the wall street dirtballs who ripped off folks for zillions of dollars...and he was still doing it, which may have been behind his downfall:
http://www.gregpalast.com/elliot-spitzer-gets-nailed/
You're shooting yourselves in the foot on this one people...he was a powerful advocate for the little guy. On this rare occasion, Ben Stein was right, and I doubt very much that Spitzer would have been impeached had he not caved to the righteous bullshit.
I reject his point that what Spitzer did was clearly wrong. It is only wrong in a society that does not allow personal freedom, as is the case in the US. The fact that a society empowers itself through law to control consensual acts between adults does not make those acts clearly wrong.
What Spitzer did is no ones business but his own. Except in the police states such as the US that feels compelled to exert the will of those with the power to script law over other.
Its is pure irony that Spitzer is being prosecuted on "crimes" that he once prosecuted others, and he is a hypocrite, but that is all.
IndyHoosier @ 76:
Hear, hear!
I wouldn't go so far as to call the U.S. a "police state" (yet), but I see pretty much eye-to-eye with you. The United States is profoundly authoritarian. Prostitution should be legal. It should be a protected Constitutional right.
Back when the entire Monica Lewinsky farce was occupying the collective attention, I remarked that I really didn't care whether the president took a break every afternoon for a joint and a hooker in the Rose Garden....as long as he could run the country.
So with that in mind it's hardly surprising that I find this entire episode to be a ludicrous waste of everyone's time. The feds have far better things to be investigating (such as: where did those billions of missing dollars in Iraq go?) than this -- or any other petty episode involving political officials. If it's not related to the conduct of their jobs (e.g., if it turned out that Spitzer was influencing legislation that dealt with the brothel) then I don't care.
So they get rid of Spitzer (who has been something of a disaster here) to give New York a much more progressive African-American Governor?! I'm a New Yorker, and I say "Thanks." I think we got a better governor and David Patterson may well be a boon to the NY Democratic Party which was in danger of going Bloombergian!!
[Deleted-Sitemonitor]
Ben Stein? Hot air from an asshole.
I hate to agree with Ben Stein, but he's right. I mean it's not like Spitzer was giving blow jobs in a public restroom, or something... :)
No. 44 @ 10:
Jeffrey Stewart @ 4:
.
Ditto. AIPAC&co uber alles.
How about: enuff of Spitzer-whore-iffic crappolla ??
Bear Stearns was one of the fantastic choices of boosh for SSecurity investments by regular folks - sold today to JPMorgan at $2 /share (and, the Fed approved a $30 billion loan for the takeover of Bear Stearn. Loan by us, the idiot TAXPAERS..)..
We've had several people dead in Manhattan yesterday in my neighbourhood - huge crain pulverized bldgs around falling apart at 20 floor height. NO oversight - govt does NOT govern at ANY level.
Bloomberg refuses to tax NYC millionaires ($ 1 million annual income, or more) insisting regular Joes and Janes will pay UP ($ 8) each time crossing Manhattan btw 6 am and 6 pm.
Carnival of THIEVES of ALL stripes is going on, and C&L is in agony over whore-iffic millionaire, who achieved NOTHING as our governator for the past 1.5 years. Now we know WHY - too busy w/hos and his dick, and covering tracks of his crimes.
C&L: how abt focusing on so many more important issues - enuff of Spitzer-whore-iffic crapppolla !!!
He's right...I think there's some growing evidence this may be a political hit.
All of you who are jumping up and down about Spitzer's hypocrisy and how he deserves whatever is coming to him etc. are missing the point. Stein's point is that so-called civil servants in the Justice Dept. entrapped Spitzer and then immediately LEAKED the information to the New York Times. I would guess that leaking information like that is a federal crime. I would also guess that the Bushco Politburo (formerly the Dept. of Justice) won't lift a finger to find out who did the leaking.
Stein's correct if you look at everything totally out of context. If Spitzer was a different kind of politician, this wouldn't be his end. Hasn't been for many others in his position. But he was a crusading, anti-Prostitution (among other things) legal fighter who argued very passionately against the very thing he was doing in private. Spitzer resigned himself, Federal Agents didn't force him to. And he will be succeeded by a guy that I'm much more excited to have as governor of my state. In Spitzer's case, this was just too much of a contradiction to his stated purposes as a public servant for him to have had any remaining moral authority with which to pursue his agenda in New York, there was really no choice for him but to go. Except to have not done what he did in the first place - but he didn't make that choice.
Larry Craig didn't resign and his misdeed seems to have gone away. Why should Spitzer be any different.
Spitzer should have told the world that he'd resign when Senator Craig did. The Veep shot a guy in the face and made the victim apologize. Perhaps if Hooker No. 9 apologized--or does that hypocritical stuff only work for Republicans?
I can find charges on anyone if I tap their phones and follow them around for two years. The only reason Stein wants to bring this up is he knows the democrats are taking power and he fears payback.
osiris @ 67:
I do not have enough faith in the media that they will follow the trail and keep anything but the ual part of this story front and center. But I will hold out hope that you are right.
Otay @ 64:
"Times tables games practice - while you blow " ??
"He should have been more careful with his own morality."
Laws shouldn't be based on morality.
Laws should be based on harm, more importantly direct harm.
I still don't see Spitzer being charged with anything. It's all pump and circumcision until the election
DoctorJazz @ 85:
While one of Stein's points was indeed that the means and manner by which we all came to know about Spitzer's silly actions was sinister, I'm not sure I follow your characterizations.
How was Spitzer entrapped? Stein never made that claim.
And when did Stein talk about leaking information to the press? And even if the facts that the federal government were investigating Spitzer for one thing, and ended up finding him in bed with prostitutes, were leaked, how would that leaking constitute a federal crime?
No, Stein is wrong. He's way wrong. One of the first posts talks about how Stein intimates that elected officials are above the law, and they are not.
Any Department of Justice at any level is going to be made up of appointeds and those who applied for the job. Duh. So to think that those people are thus "lower" than an elected is outright wrong. Just because someone was able to raise money and get elected doesn't mean they have the right to do what they want once they are in that position.
How arrogant of Stein.
Jay Severin Has a Small Pen1s @ 91:
Hmm. I don't think I'd put it that way. I'd say that laws should be based on Equal Liberty Rights.
That is, each person has an equal rights, such as equal rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. And because the rights are equal, they extend only so far as they do not infringe on another person's rights.
May you murder another person because it's how you pursue happiness? No. Because it infringes upon another person's equal right to life and her pursuit of happiness.
So, not harm per se, but infringements of equal rights. That's when the government may interfere with liberty -- to equalize it.
Hee hee!! Nice turn of phrase!
It's an invalid argument. Spitzer did not run on a pro-hooker platform, did he? For Stein's point to be valid, the public should have been told exactly what they were getting when they cast their votes: A Governor with a taste for ladies of the night.
Instead, they thought they were voting for a guy who put them behind bars, not take them to one. I am 100% for legal prostitution. That isn't the point. I make a stand against politicians who abuse their position without regard to party. At least when a Democrat does something wrong (are you listening Rep. Jefferson?) they have the integrity to own up to it and take the logical consequences of their action. Unlike Vitter, Libby, DeLay, Craig, etc., etc....
It was Ben Stein's Day On!
Jonathan @ 93:
I don't follow. When did he intimate that elected officials are above the law? What quote of his leads you to believe that that's what he's saying?
CappuccettoHusseinRosso @ 90:
But don't gulp or gnash your teeth if you don't know the answer.
I would remind the author of aforementioned trainwreck of an argument
that "the people" (emphasis mine) were raped of their vote (ibed). That is, if I thought anything about Mr. Stein at this point.
I'm still debating that question with myself. Still, I have to wonder how many Republicans the Justice Department are monitoring. They must be an usually upstanding lot to never be charged with anything.
I KNOW you don't mean THESE republicans. They're the ones that have been running the system for, well, you tell me.
Peter G @ 100:
Republicans are never charged with anything? Randall "Duke" Cunningham was convicted of federal crimes. Jack Abramoff was convicted of federal crimes (and other Republicans went down one way or another in his wake). Scooter Libby was convicted on federal charges.
I'm not saying that the Justice Department isn't corrupt in favor of Republicans, but there have been plenty of Republicans who have been (rightly) felled by federal criminal authorities of late.
As a New York resident who voted for Spitzer and thinks prostitution should be legalized, I say Ben Stein is way off on this one.
If the question were whether this were a Republican witch hunt or something along those lines, this might a different story, but Stein isn't suggesting that. He's simply saying these small group of people overturned an election... which they didn't really. They saw some irregularities, followed the trail, and it led them to illegal behavior. ASSUMING, as I said, there weren't other factors involved (political targeting, payback by the Gambino family, or whatever), it doesn't appear they did anything wrong. AND it's not like they directly removed him from office. He CHOSE to resign, which he didn't necessarily have to do, though it was clearly the right call. And while this was a relatively meaningless crime, the bigger point in his case is that he is not only the top law enforcement officer of the state, but that as Attorney General, he actually busted exactly the kinds of prostitution rings he himself is using. His own hubris circumvented the voters' decision, not this small group of civil servants.
As for the Lt. Gov. simply taking over, he might have some point there. To be honest, I don't know how the Lt. Gov. got his position to begin with, including whether he was part of the ticket, the way the Vice President is. But from Stein's comments, that sounds like it wasn't the case. Assuming that he is correct and the Lt. Gov. was never voted on in any manner, there should definitely be a special election to find a replacement, though I have no problem with the Lt. Gov. acting in that role until the election. However, that is something that should be provided by New York State law, and if it isn't, once again you can hardly blame a group of IRS agents for not taking that into account during their investigation.
It should be obvious to everyone that Spitzer was taken down on a "fishing expedition" just like Clinton and Siegelman were.
Stein pointing out the removal of an elected leader as a form of political coup could be the same as Nixon going to China... the rightwing won't listen if a liberal states the same position. Now maybe some will realize that they have been taken for a "power" ride.
Too bad Stein attached himself to the wingnut creationist/ID propaganda piece "Expelled." Now too many on the left will dismiss a view that should be strongly embraced.
And finally, why do we let the sexually repressed dictate what is correct sexual conduct? Why should Spitzer's sexual choices be anyone's business but his own? The "War On Prostitution" is about as effective as the "War On Drugs". Yes, he broke the law... but that doesn't validate a pointless law that creates more crime than it prevents.
he circumscribed the voters then.
The point about this not being treason or a treason-like offense is correct, and it appeared that the Gov would not have been *forced* from office. This seems like a personal/political decision by him. Based on what family in NY have said, he had little support nor love from Dems nor (of course) Repubs, and without even the Dem support, he was dead in the water. Couple that with the (wonderfully refreshing) "justice will be served no matter who the offender is" frame of his campaign and prior prosecutorial (sp?) service, and you have an elected official hanging in the wind.
Kudos to Stein for pointing out the excessive focus on a sex scandal when other items abound, such as an election.
Would I have resigned like the Gov did? I do not know - I have not been in any sort of position even remotely resembling his. However, I wish he had not gotten himself into that position to begin with - he did a lot for NY. And by leading the charge on quite a few fronts, he did a lot for all of us.
Still straw horses and red herrings aside, Stein shall not sway me one bit.
Chiv @ 103:
In New York, the gubernatorial candidate and his lieutenant do run as a team on a ticket together.
And hypothetically a politician can do anything? I mean we all start with bill of rights right? And yes entitlements, this being America, include politicians who can go 8 or so years without breaking the law.
p.s. lets not go back to "meaningless laws" meaninglessness
My father just said, "you're an asshole" but he meant you.
JAson @ 109:
Wait, what? What are you arguing?
That it is absurd to legitimize resignations
especially at this point
and I do mean after Republican rule
Oh good I thought I'd already written this next part. Ben Stein is a
tool who somehow manages to make a living off telling people how
to live their lives.
Lets see, Democrat Spitzer paid big bucks for a bj and Ben Stein comes to his defense? Where was Stein when another Democratic politician got a free bj and then got ridden out of office?
Actually, on the face of it, I would agree with Ben Stein this time. However, given the fact that Spitzer's downfall was his involvement in the very things he prosecuted, this is one of those rare instances where the principle takes a backseat to the most blatant irony.
Sadly, as popular as Spitzer was, there is no redemption in these circumstances. Spitzer helped create the transaction tracking that led to the discovery of his transgressions. How can anyone possibly be more hypocritical?
A few others, have asked why the Feds were watching Spitzer in the first place? Stein is right that Spitzer was humiliated. Because details about what Spitzer liked were leaked, such as Spitzer liked to do "unsafe" things. There was no reason to leak that info, other than to humiliate Spitzer. Plus, Greg Palast's article tying the Bushie's $200 billion bail-out of predatory banks and how Spitzer stood in the way of that bailout.
I believe there's more to this story and it needs to be investigated.
Ben Stein and I don't see eye to eye on many things, but he is right on with this point. I can say the same for vitter in LA. He's a hypocrite, and maybe this man, Spitzer, is as well, but the people did vote for him to represent them or take a place in government, and this country is damned hung up on sex that we would stone someone to death for such hanky panky.
Prudes. Blame it on our evangelical right, but it's in ALL of us.
DoctorJazz @ 85:
Spitzer wasn't entrapped. Stupidly, he bought the trap, set it and put his dick in it. Arrogance or stupidity, who knows? However, he's not the only "client #" on that list, but he is the only one identified in public. Why is that? I'm guessing he was just giving a little too much pushback on the subprime mess, and it was time to neutralize him just in time for Bear Stearns to be 'rescued' by the Fed and JP Morgan. There's way too many common players in these dramas for me not to believe there was clear political (and financial) motivation behind the takedown of Spitzer.
Convenient timing
Yes, absolutely, we need to end the criminalization of politics -- just as soon as it's the Dems who look like they're going to get to appoint the prosecutors next January.
Where was Mr. Stein on Whitewater and Monicagate? Where was he when Siegelman was railroaded? Where was he when the USA Patriot Act, the Protect America Act, and the Military Commissions Act were passed to give this Republican president unparalelled powers to railroad his political opponents?
It's no moral achievement to bring out the Good Book, and lecture us all on principles as thoroughly unremarkable as that it's a bad idea to let the govt railroad people, only when it serves one's turn.
It IS scary that so much is recorded
The only one who arguably overturned "the will of the people" was Spitzer himself by resigning. He DID NOT have to resign. Sure, he might have faced impeachment but that is a valid exercise of checks and balances. As for Stein's confidence that this all just about Spitzer's "indiscretion," I have to wonder, how does he know all the facts of this case? Is Stein privy to the government's case against Spitzer? Hell, there might be more to this than "just sex." We do not know the whole story yet, and may never.
All the details about Spitzer's infidelities were handed to the media on a silver platter. They didn't have to dig for it. All the salacious details, such as the name of Client #9 and his tastes, were given to the media along with the FBI's excuse for why they were wiretapping Spitzer in the first place. But we know that Bush's DOJ has acted as a goon squad for the GOP. And Spitzer fought these guys while he was NY's DA.
I'm not talking about Spitzer's obvious hypocrisy, or whether or not he should've resigned. That's a separate issue.
According to Greg Palast and Daily Kos, a WaPo oped Spitzer wrote appeared right before the hooker revelations, in which Spitzer wrote:
And, get this, one of the banks Spitzer wanted info on, HSBC, was the bank that reported Spitzer's bank activity to the FBI. Just another coincidence?
Of course, he's right.
But when have the powers that be EVER listened to the people?
1) After Ken Starr wasted taxpayer dollars investigating Whitewater, coming up with a stained blue dress, the vast majority of Americans said, "So what?" Yet, the Republican-controlled congress decided to roll ahead to the fruitless conclusion.
2) When the majority of Americans were against going into Iraq (without UN approval), the Republicans decided to steamroll ahead anyway.
3) When the majority of Americans wanted all the votes counted in 2000, the Supreme Court overruled.
They don't care who the people vote for, who they want representing them, or actually representing our wishes. It's not a democracy, it's a plutocracy. Spitzer wasn't taken down by the law (otherwise, there are a thousand other politicians who'd be in jail), he was taken down by the rich, who were afraid he was going to make them pay for breaking the law.
He's right and makes a few good points. Spitzer broke the law, but to wipe away all the good he did because he slept with a call girl, and spent his own money to do it? Please. This moral high-horse stuff in politics has got to stop. The media, public and Republicans acted as if Satan himself had appeared. Spitzer did the honorable thing and bowed out, but if this were Europe, no one would give two shits.
Karen @ 108:
Thanks for the confirmation on that, which confirms my previous point. Spitzer (elected official) got caught with his hand in the cookie jar. He CHOSE to step down. By state law, his #2 (also an elected official) took over. There was NO circumventing of the election process or the voters, as Stein suggests.
Again, that's a completely separate issue from whether the whole thing was politically motivated to begin with.
Bush claims that he needs these suveillance powers to protect America from terrorist; yet, he is using these powers to go after people for hiring prostitutes.
Welcome to the New World Order!
Chiv @ 125: "Spitzer...CHOSE to step down. By state law, his #2 (also an elected official) took over. There was NO circumventing of the election process or the voters, as Stein suggests."
The point is that the DoJ conspired with the Republican party -- and not for the first time -- to "find" a morals violation, which they then apparently turned into a Mann Act entrapment, to remove a governor.
The California example is even more galling -- using a never used law to replace a duly elected governor by LESS votes. It was also a stolen election, using the Republican-run, Bushco-led illegal voting conspiracy.
The worms are coming right into view, as the bloated corpse of Bushco rots in the sunlight of our horror.
There is something a little fishy about the way they went after him ,BUT he didn't deny it, nor deny that he was seeing these high-priced prostitution ring prostitutes for quite some time, probably while he was prosecuting some high-priced prostitution rings.
He ran as a straight shooter AG who was ready to move on to help at a higher level. Face it, he wasn't a straight shooter. He was a fraud. He could even have steared investigations away from his chosen prostitution ring onto some other ring. I'm all for sex, but he let his sexual desires control him and turn him in to a criminal hypocrite.
It is a great tragedy for the Democratic part and the nation because of the prospects before us of his potentially huge contributions to not just to his state, but to our nation.
I think it is a different category altogether than Vitter or Craig, even though those hypocrites should resign too. Spitzer's betrayal is greater I think. I like to feel comfortable arguing that prostitution should be legal so this isn't a big deal, but I can't...because of how he built his reputation.
Spitzer betrayed his voters, not the DOJ
@127 this is not a Spiegelman case. "Morals violation " would be something like blow job in the passageway. This is thousand dollar bank transfers for high priced kink-specialist prostitutes. In New York, that means organized crime.
Stein is, as always, wrong. Spitzer wasn't forced to resign. He chose to. He broke a law (a dumb on) and he copped a deal to avoid worse consequences -- the same thing thousands of Americans do every year -- the same thing Spitzer facilitated god knows how many times.
Stein is advocating corruption to the nth power.
Yes, the whole thing stinks, but no one is more responsible for the mess than Spitzer.
Paul in LA @ 6:
Oh puh-leeeease...Gray Davis? That pasty fraudulent pile of GLOP?! That total criminal that took the already certifiably insane California to never-before-seen lows? Spitzer's crime was nothing. Gray Davis, on the other hand, that criminal can rot in hell for all he did, which really did amount to something, and for which he should be behind bars.
Stow the conspiracy theories, and don't couch Davis' name between Siegelman and Spitzer, like some kind of mold sandwich that people are supposed to actually chew and swallow. One of those things just doesn't belong there - two of those things are kind of the same.
If politicians keep getting busted for ridiculous morality laws that criminalize mutually consensual adult activities, maybe the country will finally give up and legalize these things.
Once every two years or so Sam Stein tells the complete truth about something
and each time it comes as a complete shock to the system that he is capable of
such things. Things will return to "normal" when he appears again on Kudlow's
show and tries to put the "Humpty Dumpty" economy back together again
and we all know how he'll try to explain it. I admired what Spitzer did to Wall Street
and if he over stepped it was because he knew, very very well, the kind of people he
was dealing with. They were/are just like Spitzer...arrogant, aggressive, CRAZY, and super smart.
Any connection between Spitzer's indictment and the recent taxpayer sponsored
bailout of banks and insurers is, of coarse, completely coincidental.
Stein is right (and I'm no fan of Stein or Spitzer). Spitzer should have faced a recall election to see it NY voters still wanted him.
I couldn't agree more with the posters above that everyone should be made to read Greg Palast's article here:
http://www.gregpalast.com/elliot-spitzer-gets-nailed/
what's more he's being replaced by Jefferson,
Patterson.
Spitzer was busting the whores on Wall Street.
He got "Goldberged".
Stein does have a point, but these are his playmates he's talking about. A man as smart is Ben Stein is supposed to be has just suddenly figured out that something is rotten in the government? That his little buddies are corrupt to the core and beyond? I find this sudden spasm of social conscience more than a little suspicious.
Steven Douglas @ 131 "Oh puh-leeeease...Gray Davis? That pasty fraudulent pile of GLOP?! That total criminal that took the already certifiably insane California to never-before-seen lows?"
Gray Davis was elected by a larger majority than the recall that removed him from office, AND we proved that the election was ILLEGAL under California law (not one computer tabulator in the state had legal software). Gray Davis had committed NO crime, and the $9 billion deficit is shockingly similar to Gov. Pantload's $9 billion this year, except that Gray Davis didn't take $125 MILLION from secret funds of developers, and Gray Davis didn't foist a $75 MILLION dollar referendum on the State, and Gray Davis didn't invite Blackwater private militia to take up residence in San Diego, and Gray Davis wasn't an illegal alien worker involved in the Reliant/ENRON ripoff like the Meathead who replaced him.
You didn't provide a single factual basis for your FAKE argument. Gray Davis committed NO crime. He was removed by an illegal process, by the same PIGS who have trashed our country.
Joementum @ 41:
Right, thanks, I knew there was at least one more example, and I think there are several other cases.
Now that it is CLEAR that Bushco has been domestically spying since they took office, it is more clear that these political hits have been subversion of a most illegal sort.
longnow @ 133:
Speaker Pelosi said on ABC this morning that stockbrokers should get 'haircuts,' but the system should not be allowed to collapse.
Stein is wrong. This man appears to have committed wire fraud, structuring, money laundering and may have stolen from his election fund to pay for all this. These are serious crimes and he should not be in office.
Spitzer spent his money and got laid. GWB has spent the US economy and failed. Which one deserves to go?
Spitzer was an experienced prosecutor. He would not have resigned just because of the sex... he knew he was in, and still may be, deep legal trouble.
All of you posting here with your high minded statements such as,"America needs to grow up" and "We need to make prostitution legal" "America is puritanical!" All of that may be true but in this case Spitzer very likely broke the very laws he was sworn to uphold.
As for Stein he is "disturbed by a low level IRS agent undoing an election." It was not the IRS who broke the law it was Spitzer...let's keep that at the forefront.
Secondly, where was the outrage from Stein when Doug Feith and other civil servants in the DOD fabricated evidence that Iraq had WMDs. No protest from Stein on that one!
We wouldn't know Spitzer as Client-9 unless the DOJ hadn't leaked it.
Does he have a point? Ask Don Seigleman.
Stein's laying the groundwork for the next Democratic administration--the GOP will protest the investigation or arrest of any corrupt Repub politician saying that subverts the will of the electorate.
"Elections Are More Important Than Hookers"
i dont know. its pretty tough to disagree with that.
i have a problem when f****** is more serious than murder, sending our young men and women to be maimed or killed in a self-aggrandizing war, standing in the way of providing health care for our children, assisting our parents and grandparents in having a full life they can afford, preventing families from having a comfortable life...
i think you get the picture to which i'm referring. the problem is the current form of the myth of christianism. it's a long way from what it was initially intended to be. in the Old Testament there was raciness and sauciness galore. JC said "Judge not, lest ye be judged." ole Paul comes along and in effect says, "I judge all of you. You're filth. Keep it in your toga."
was Spitzer doing his job well? who did he hurt besides his family? did he take food out of the mouths of the children of New York? how does f****** a professional woman betray the trust of the people who elected him? is hypocrisy a law on the legal books of either New York or the U.S.? the French and the British, specifically, have a great laugh at our country with the reactions to sex. they screw, get caught and get on with their lives...
Sexual issues are NOT matters to remove someone from office - for the most part.
This whole issue is just another symptom of the utterly moronic attitudes of Americans on politics and sex.
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