'Florida doesn't want to vote again. So we won't'
By Steve Benen Monday Mar 17, 2008 8:20pmIf Florida’s delegates to the Democratic National Convention aren’t seated, about 1.7 million voters who participated in the state’s primary will, in a way, be disenfranchised. If Florida’s delegates are seated, millions of Democrats who would have voted but didn’t because they’d been told in advance that their vote wouldn’t count, would also effectively be disenfranchised. (As the estimable Carl Hiaasen put it, “It’s like Major League Baseball waiting until midseason and then declaring that spring training games will count in the final standings.”) Either way, Democratic voters in one of the nation’s biggest states would be screwed.
Florida Dems could have another primary, but there are some major legal and financial restrictions. They could try some re-vote-by-mail process, but no one is confident in the integrity of the system. Everyone has been trying to think of something, but to no avail.
So, yesterday, Floridians gave up.
Setting the stage for a contentious fight well into the summer, Florida Democrats gave up Monday on redoing their Jan. 29 presidential primary, leaving it to the national party or rivals Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama to hammer out a solution to make the state’s delegates count.
Florida Democrats, who had already closed the door on holding a full-scale conventional election or a caucus, scrapped the controversial vote-by-mail primary they had proposed less than a week ago as their best option, saying it just isn’t possible.
“While your reasons vary widely, the consensus is clear: Florida doesn’t want to vote again. So we won’t,” Florida Democratic Party Chairwoman Karen Thurman said late Monday in a letter to Florida Democrats.
Sen. Bill Nelson (D-Fla.) is still pushing a proposal to have the DNC simply cut the state’s delegate totals in half (instead of eliminating them altogether), but the Clinton campaign is reportedly opposed to the idea.
Obama supporters are offering an alternative, but it also seems a little too controversial.
[Allan Katz, of Tallahassee, who supports Obama] is recommending that the [Democratic National Committee’s rules and bylaws committee] give Florida its delegates back — but award half to Clinton and half to Obama. Florida activists would be allowed to participate in the convention, but the ground rules for the primaries wouldn’t be changed after the fact.
“Fifty-fifty is the way to do it, and I don’t think there’s any other fair conclusion,” Katz said. “Everyone agreed — Hillary Clinton agreed, Barack Obama agreed — that we weren’t selecting delegates in the Jan. 29 election, so how can we do that now?”
That has some advantages — Florida’s delegates would at least be seated and recognized — but there’s no way on Earth that the Clinton campaign would approve of a solution that erased her margin from the primary that wasn’t supposed to count.
And what about Michigan?
Michigan Democratic party leaders on Monday proposed legislation to conduct a new primary on June 3 to allocate the state’s 156 delegates. The election would be run by the state but be privately financed.
Mrs. Clinton, of New York, has agreed to the plan; aides to Mr. Obama, of Illinois, have refused to commit to it. It is more uncertain than ever that he will: The party’s rules may disqualify anyone who voted in Michigan’s Republican primary from voting in the Democratic primary — including those who may be Obama supporters who voted Republican because his name was not on the Democratic ballot.
Michigan Democratic officials said the plan for a revote could not move forward unless both campaigns agreed to the proposal in the next day or so.
The Michigan Legislature then must approve any plan to conduct a statewide election, and state lawmakers are scheduled to begin a two-week recess on Thursday. Even if the Obama and Clinton campaigns endorse the proposal, it still must win two-thirds support in both the State House, controlled by Democrats, and the Senate, which has a Republican majority. The plan is also dependent on state party officials raising an estimated $10 million to pay for the new election.
I’d just add that top Clinton strategist Harold Ickes blasted the Obama campaign for its hesitation to support the Michigan re-vote, insisting that the “right to vote is the foundation of our democracy,” and Michigan voters “deserve to have a voice and a vote in the Democratic Party’s nominating process.”
Ickes, of course, is one of the DNC members who decided to strip Michigan of its delegates in the first place.
Get the sense that the campaigns, while touting principles, are really looking at this from purely self-serving interests? I do.
Login or Register to post comments.
Testing 123 Testing
Things are getting very weird very fast.
Oh Harold Ickes, how I loathe thee.
What's the Obama alternative? Just give him all the delegates.
Bet if obama would get the votes the male bloggers would be messing their pants.
This is bad news for either Democratic candidate.
Votes that went to Edwards, Kucinich, Richardson, Dodd and Gravel would be awarded to Obama, that is what Obama supporters want?
Guess what, THAT IS VOTE STEALING!!
Hillary won the majority of the felegates, let her get them. I voted in Hillsborough County despite being told my vote won't count. Whoever didn't get to vote is a loser. Plain and simple. 1.6 million Democrats voted and that is that.
There were rules, the Republicans in your state broke them.
You have four options:
1. Vote against all Republicans in all coming elections in mass for screwing you.
2. Be seated 50/50 between both candidates.
3. Wait until it's all over and get seated as a whole behind the nominee.
4. A combo of 1 and 2 or 3.
The same goes for your Michigan.
Oh yeah....
5. The next time either party in your state breaks the rules that risk not getting your votes counted, complaing WHEN IT HAPPENS and not a year and a half later when you find yourself on the sideline to history.
2 million floridians voted. How many more can there be down there who didn't vote versus the average turnout for such a primary. Seems like everyone who wanted to vote came out to vote as there were also other items on the ballot. Anyway, you slice it, negating Florida helps Sen. Obama. The Super-delegates will have to take into account that Clinton got 50% of the vote down there and Obama 33%. They will have to sift these facts into their equation which is part of the reason they call them Super delegates I guess.
Mister Anderson @ 8:
Howard Dean said that FL has to go to the Creditials Committee at the convention to fight their delegates. So no to any of your suggestion.
The 50/50 split is VOTE STEALING.
If the people who didn't vote in January in Florida would be disenfranchised by using the existing Florida results that must also mean that the people who, because of work or other obligations, couldn't participate in causcuses are also disenfranchised. Lets throw out the caucus results too.
Marge @ 5:
Maybe that's because of all the viagra they been poppin!
Have a contest. IF Michigan can build a decent car, they get a day set aside to revote. Florida? If you level Disneyland, you get to revote.
Frankly, with the whole 'if our votes don't get counted, I won't support the Democratic Nominee when it comes time to vote for our new President' (saw this on news.google.com) really seems childish to me - and I voted in Leon County. I don't take stock in polls, and frankly I only see this as something I can hold against the Republican party, we were forced to vote ahead by Charlie Crist, and the DNC punished our State. If we want to follow the rules set by the DNC, then our votes shouldn't count, neither should Michigan's - but if they want to sit the delegates, fine sit them fifty fifty. I'm still going to vote for the Democratic Nominee when it comes time to vote for who will be leading this country after the Bush Administration.
A 50/50 delegate split does not give the Democrats in Michigan and Florida a say in the candidate selection. This is an unmitigated disaster.
I sympathize with the Floridians who voted and with those who believed rules are rules and didn't vote. I'm also aware that Republicans were at least involved in the mischief that moved the primary date.
That said, if the DNC caves to blackmail and seats the delegates, I'll guarantee the primaries for 2012 will begin on Jan 30, 2009.
this is a horrible mess (file under:duh)
i see this as a dean-failure, with the rank and file dems in FL and MI paying the price.
there is no good solution: that said, the possibility of this occurring and ways to resolve this issue should have been hammered out before the primaries even started, not now.
instead, after the country has seen the monster that is the rethug party (illegal wars, illegal spying, torture, economic meltdown, katrina, enron, etc), the obama/clinton campaigns are struggling to be ahead in head-to-head match-ups with mccain.
i never would have guessed that in 2008, after all that has happened, that people would even consider a bush-legacy-candidate as their prez choice. if the dems lose the election it is their own fault, and they deserve to be disbanded and put out to pasture, as it would no longer be a viable party.
SM @ 11:
I didn't say split the vote. I said split the delegates that way neither candidate is given a unfair advantage and Florida still gets represented.
You can't have it all ways. You want to be seated, but you want your vote to effect the race, but you don't want to pay for a new election.
Getting Florida and Michigan is easy as they can get seats after one candidate drops out of the race. Florida, Michigan and Hillary are being greedy by they want the popular vote to count too since Hillary's only chance moving forward is to win the popular vote.
Tough luck! You've known for a year and a half that your popular vote wouldn't count and everyone except for Senator Ben Nelson accepted it. You accepted it then, so accept it now.
If Hillary had of wiped out Obama on Super Tuesday like she orignally planned to do, then whatever happens to Michigan and Florida wouldn't even make it on CNN Headline News, let alone turn into this national story where everyone is suppose to emphaize with "disenfrancised voters".
Everyone was told what the rules of the game were before hand. Why are they all getting bent out of shape after the game is over? Forget MI and Fla. Neither of them would change a thing even if they had a revote. Why are we wasting energy on this? We have Republikinz to beat.
As usual, dems are their own worst enemy. The most destructive dems = Clintons, should be retired, foevah.
Alvord @ 12:
I don't think Florida had a caucus on Jan. 29. And I seriously call BS on the "people who did't vote thought their vote didn't count so they did not go." I went, as 1.6 million Democrats went, despite whether our vote "counted" or not. Screw the people who didn't get off their behinds to go. I rearranged my work schedule weeks ahead to vote on Jan 29. If people didn't vote, that's their problem.
It will really piss me off if I don't get to have a say in this. I contribute a lot of money to bloggers and the Democratic party.
We ought to give Florida to Cuba after the shit they pulled in 2000 and 2004 there, but seeing as that's not a viable option then the voters of that state must be heard. I think it should fall on the part of the DNC and the two leading candidates to finance some sort of mail-in ballot campaign, and stat.
Between Florida and the DNC, these guys could fuck up a bowl of Jello.
What hope do we have in the next few years when the Republicans manage to get their shit at least partially together?
CappuccettoRosso @ 21:
How come it's always the Clintons fault?
All of this is Ralph Nader's fault, btw. I don't know how, but I'm sure it is.
Mister Anderson @ 19:
Regular delegates have to vote according to the popular vote, so seating 50/50 is VOTE STEALING.
Marge @ 5:
Ummm , it was the FEMALE vote in 2004 that turned the tide for Chimpy ; well that , and Diebold .........Way to go.
Disenfranchisement? Welcome to the New American Century!!
Here's a solution -- just Re-do Florida ... for 2000!
Do supposed Democratic Party supporters think it is worth it to destroy the party and candidates for a one term presidency? THAT is the question you have to ask. It took almost 8 years to make this mess, it sure won't be corrected in 4 and an electorate with a short memory and slight attention span will punish the Dems in 2012. It's far too great a mess to be solved in one term.
I'm in NC, and I give up, too. I'm voting for Mike Gravel. He's the only one who doesn't have rocks in his head.
L.A. Confidential @ 26:
It's not the "Clintons" , per se ; it's the Clenis , rearing its ugly head , so to speak .........
Clinton won by the margin she did in Florida simply because of name recognition and her front-runner status at the time. Remember how early it was at the time. If the vote had occurred as scheduled, the results likely would have been much closer....still a win for Clinton, but much closer.
I say to my fellow Democrats: "Split the delegates and then go out and have a beer together." Don't tear the party apart. In Florida the Republican fix is already in for November anyway, especially if Hillary is the nominee. With Obama...it's a toss up.
MCMetal @ 34:
Right. While the Cons get a free pass for all their child molesting and what have you.
Mister Anderson @ 19:
Disenfranchised voters in quotes? You should change your name, you sound more like one of the Agents of the matrix.
SM @ 28:
Then Florida and Michigan should pay for a new vote. It's that simple.
If you don't want to pay for two elections, then you shouldn't have broke the rules in the first place. If the rules were broken by the Republicans in your state, then hold them accountable instead of trying to hold the DNC or Obama campaign responsible.
They've known for a YEAR AND A HALF that this would happen and you still allowed it to happen. The only reason it's a huge issue now is because their votes would actually matter this time. Labeling themselves "disenfranchised voters" is not going to fly with me just like the real "disenfranchised voters" in Florida in 2000 and Ohio in 2004 didn't matter to the rest of the nation.
If you want to argue and debate the electoral system then fine. But don't wait until you are negatively impacted before it's a huge issue.
Rico @ 35:
Does the Florida vote really need to be "fixed" in the GOP's favor in Florida ? (Well , this time , anyway)
I mean , outside of the Hispanic population there , isn't the rest of the damn state the entire US population's retirement area ?
And aren't they more likely to vote for a dithering old fart like themself in McSenile , anyway ?
OT: Watching Countdown. The audio "conveniently" cut out during the worst person in the world segment right after St. McCain said "As we all know, Al Qaeda are going into Iran to be trained and coming back to Iraq." No audio for the rest of the segment and didn't come back until midway through the first or second commercial.
I'm in Nashville, TN. Anyone else have this "problem?"
Democratic Party voters getting screwed here in Floriduh? Jesus what news! Damn this IS a slow news day. RePugs lying about Iraq,Dems screwed in Floriduh.What's next? NEWS falsh-'Today the sun rose in The East film at 11'.
who fuckin cares, flo ri dumb fucked up 2000
And MY comment didn't take up HALF A PAGE.
I'm experiencing obama fatigue. Enough of this man and his speeches already.
Mister Anderson @ 38:
The Florida DNC had no control over it. We were scheduled for March 11. A few months prior, the Republican Dominated state congress forced the primary for January 29. Amendment 1 was also on the ballot, which drove the decision to hold the primaries early. It was a Republican move, not because FL wanted to influence the election cycle.
And yes, we are disenfranchised because the 4th most populous state in the nation will have no voice or vote at the Democratic Convention over some Howard Dean crap.
nonbeliever @ 37:
I put it in quotes because they're not genuinely disenfranchised. They're irresponsible citizens who failed to hold their respective state governments accountable for breaking the rules AFTER they knew the consequences and now they expect the rest of the country to give a damn and flip the bill on their behalf.
If they weren't Florida and Michigan, but Idaho and Wyoming, no one would give care. Being that the only argument they have is that they are a big state, and since we are all reminded by how "some states are more equal than others", I can care less if Florida and Michigan have their votes counted and are seated. There was no fraud. No one lied. There's no conspiracy. They knowingly allowed their respective state governments to act negligently on their behalf and now they want a second chance where anyone but them pick up the bill.
I'm sorry. But coming from a smaller state, I'm sick of being bombarded by "breaking news" coverage every time a cat gets stuck in a tree in New York. And I'm sick and tired of hearing how big states count more than little states. And I'm sick and tired of hearing how Florida and Michigan voters will be "disenfranchised" when voters actually were disenfrachised in those states in 2000 and 2004 and no one did a thing.
If you they have a issue, they need to take it up with their state elected officials. If they're looking for sympathy from me, they won't get it.
Anyone with a brain knows what happened. Party before country.
F#@% Florida!
If they want to act like children then we don't need them. Ohio and Pennsylvania went overwhelmingly Democratic in 2006, it will most likely go the same way in 2008. If that is the case, and we win the usual northeast, upper midwest, and west coast states, then we won't need Florida. Iowa, New Mexico, and Colorado have also been moving more Democratic in the last few years, so if we win them then Florida becomes irrelevent.
I'm tired of the Democratic party wasting their time in that state full of @ssholes that never had, nor ever will have the intention of voting Democrat.
MCMetal @ 39:
Despite the stereotype of old farts and Cubans, Florida is one of the "mirror" states that reflects the US demographics statistics, almost to a tee.
Mister Anderson- get over it,man. In the generalelection,smaller states have a bigger impact because of the electoral college. So take a blow.
Given floridas voting record,, (think kathy harris aka mack truck meets mirror) who can blame them?
oh BOYCOT china!
After all what other nation sells poison to pet owners, lies about sars and bird flu and beats up tibeten monks and calls it a normal way of living.
SM @ 45:
Exactly my point. I should care because you're the fourth largest state? Would you care if you had of followed the rules and had your vote counted but Nebraska broke them and was in your situation? I'm guessing you wouldn't care which is why I don't care.
I stated many times that the RNC screwed you, which is why your beef is with the RNC. Not with the DNC. Not with the Obama campaign. And not with me. How many Florida and Michigan residents were up in arms over a year ago when all of this went down? How many of you was marching with Ben Nelson in Tallahassee when he was trying to fight against it?
There are consequences to all actions and inactions. This is one of them my friend.
If Florida voters want to vote then Florida voters should pay for it. It's that simple. If it was the RNC's fault, then make the RNC pay for it. If the residents of Florida can't control their elected officials, then that's no one's fault but your own.
nm @ 44:
After 7 years of the unintelligible and galactic stupidity , I'm more than willing to listen to long-winded speeches that are spoken by an articulate person............
Mister Anderson @ 52:
Sheesh What a blowhard.
SM @ 49:
Really ?
What other state has ever had a problem with punching a voter card correctly ??????????
David Hawes @ 50:
I don't have a issue with not being heard because my state followed the rules and my vote was counted. Tell Michigan and Florida to get over it since they want their votes counted but they won't hold those people accountable who got them in this situation in the first place. Now they want the DNC and the candidates to pay for it? I contribute money to the money campaign and I will contribute money to the DNC in the Fall. And I don't want a PENNY going to Michigan and Florida re-votes.
MCMetal @ 55:
Hahahahaha......zing!
SM @ 45:
Then stop voting for Republicans in the state legislature!
Get control of your own stupid state before you try to push your bogus delegate results on the rest of us.
SM @ 11:
Only in the way that drinking the imaginary tea at a child's tea-party is TEA STEALING.
Florida agreed to the same rules that the other 49 states agreed to. Then Florida turned around and said "We are determined to fuck up every national election," and broke the rules knowing full well that they had agreed to give up their delegates if they jumped ahead of early voting states. Then when Hillary Clinton won the fake election, she started demanding that the rules be thrown out to pack extra delegates into her column.
Seating Florida's disqualified delegates is rat-fucking.
Democratic leaders in Detroit told people to vote for Huckabee to mess with the Republican side.
This was predicated on the clearly stated understanding that the Democratic side was meaningless.
Republicans rarely show their faces in Detroit and many of the environs.
How many Democrats voted for Republicans, I don't know but I'm sure it happened. They will not be allowed to vote in a redo since we were handed Rs or Ds (I took a D, thank you) and it was tracked.
I don't see a redo working in Michigan, even if someone found the money to pay for it.
First it was the recapitulation of the Florida Democrats that initially shifted the date of their Primaries - despite the wishes of the DNC's dictates (of which, might I add, they were signatories). And now, in their re-recapitulation, they want to have their all of their votes count, despite their self-serving, petulant disregard for the rules and by-laws that they established.
I've heard the argument that, were their vote to be discounted, Floridians may choose not to vote Democrat in the National Election. But history has shown that, even when Florida's populace chooses to vote Democrat, they consistently screw up the ballot - and end up voting for Republicans anyway...
SM @ 45:
What about that detail of a democratic co-sponsor on the original bill.....
i think its a bit more complicated than saying the repug thugs did it....
if FL and MI want a vote, they should pay for one, and have a do over.... not even Soros wants to pay for their f-up, and 15 million to him would be like 20 bucks from me....
Mister Anderson @ 56:
What the hell kind of crap is this ?
Both Michigan and Florida were told their votes WOULD NOT COUNT , nor would their delegates be seated , if they didn't follow the rules.
Funny how those in both states cry about Chimpy administration lawbreaking , yet want the rules set down for them changed when the result is inconvenient or unwanted by them .......
SM @ 7:
I voted in Pinellas for Obama, despite being told that my vote wouldn't count. That's not the point, though. I realize that the state Republicans attached the change in the primary date to a comprehensive election reform bill mandating paper trails for voting machines, etc. Unfortunately, at the time the measure passed with Democratic support, I remember Karen Hughes and the Democratic delegation drinking the Kool Aid and singing the refrain of how this was going to make Florida more influential in national politics. They played chicken with the national committee and lost.
If Democrats had stood up at the time and said that, we realize that this may cost us delegates at the national convention, but this is a poison pill attached to a necessary reform package that we need to prevent further tainted elections and debacles like 2000, I would be much more sympathetic to attempts to seat delegates now. As it is, it just looks to be more gaming of the system.
Mister Anderson @ 56:
Ummmm As most know here,I live in Floriduh. And last time I looked,My vote counted ONCE. So,perhaps You should go have a scotch or something and calm yourself. I myself DO hold accountable those in Tallahasee. But,alas, I'm one voice in the Wilderness.
tek @ 4, here's an idea - Try Reading The Post! before you comment!
MCMetal @ 63:
Get your facts right fuckface. Then open yer yap.
#64 Alton meant Karen Thurman R-FL
Fix the broken system and this won't happen.
Once again I ask, why all the handwringing and sobbing over Florida and Michigan when other states have been just has effectively disenfranchised for decades?
Mister Anderson @ 46:
I'm sorry. But coming from a smaller state, I'm sick of being bombarded by "breaking news" coverage every time a cat gets stuck in a tree in New York. And I'm sick and tired of hearing how big states count more than little states. And I'm sick and tired of hearing how Florida and Michigan voters will be "disenfranchised" when voters actually were disenfrachised in those states in 2000 and 2004 and no one did a thing.
If you they have a issue, they need to take it up with their state elected officials. If they're looking for sympathy from me, they won't get it.
Sounds like you have a chip on your shoulder. I'm from New York City and I'm sorry if you feel left out of the 24 hour news cycle but the kitty in the tree scenario is reaching. I personally don't believe that big states count more than little states, I just want ALL votes counted.
David Hawes @ 67:
What "facts" am I missing , shitstain ?
Because you live in Florida , you believe you're the only one that knows what the hell's going on ?
Hey fucko
You and the rest of the retarded rube assholes that couldn't fill out a voter card properly are responsible for originally foisting the horseshit Chimpy administration on us ; learn how to vote correctly 1st , then open up your shit-filled stupid pie hole ......
Till then , keep it permanently shut...........
Floridiot @ 68:
OUCH! Talk about a Freudian slip!
nonbeliever @ 70:
Sounds like you have a chip on your shoulder. I'm from New York City and I'm sorry if you feel left out of the 24 hour news cycle but the kitty in the tree scenario is reaching. I personally don't believe that big states count more than little states, I just want ALL votes counted.
Hillary's campaign team says the big states are all that matters. Over and over they say that. Not sure, but it's a funny way of getting support from smaller states, unless of course, you figure you can win a general election without all the smaller states. Did Kerry and Gore use this method?
Two questions:
1. Who was actually responsible for moving the primary date up in Florida and getting it on the ballot? Somebody had to suggest it and a lot of other people had to okay it.
2. Why couldn't the Florida Democrats just ignore the date recommended and call the primary for a later date? Who pays for the Democratic primary in Florida -- wouldn't that be the entity that would set the date?
MCMetal @ 53:
Wolcome to the club!
Florida is a basket case for a variety of reasons. It's a state politically dominated by so-called, anti-Washington Republicans, yet it remains a state that feeds steadily and consistently at the federal trough. From receipt of disaster assistance to billions of dollars of Social Security checks pumped monthly into the local economy, it remains a state without an income tax. Without the "liberal" federal programs and policies, the state would sink into the swamp that it is. It's a peninsula of contradictions and hypocrisy.
This is fast becoming a tradition. Every election cycle Florida seems to screw up/invalidate/disenfranchise it's voters. Why don't you Floridians do something about it and elect competent people to office? Tar and feather your Secretary of State. Demand honest elections before you have an election, not after.
Florida is boil on the ass of the body politic.
ConcernedHusseinCanuck @ 73:
Hillary's campaign team says the big states are all that matters. Over and over they say that. Not sure, but it's a funny way of getting support from smaller states, unless of course, you figure you can win a general election without all the smaller states. Did Kerry and Gore use this method?
Why did you bring Hillary's name into this? Why are you so obsessed with her? It's not about her or Obama. It's about making sure the Democratic voters of all states have a say in the process. I want the Democratic base in all states to be excited about voting for the Democratic candidate.
SM @ 11:
Scream all you want. You were told they wouldn't count and you didn't protest, then. You don't get a do-over,now, no matter who you are supporting. Split it 50/50 or get nothing. Can't change the rules in the middle of the game b/c you don't like the results.
nonbeliever @ 78:
Why did you bring Hillary's name into this? Why are you so obsessed with her? It's not about her or Obama. It's about making sure the Democratic voters of all states have a say in the process. I want the Democratic base in all states to be excited about voting for the Democratic candidate.
It is totally about Hillary, don't try to wiggle around it. If she wasn't losing, she wouldn't be pushing for any of this. She'd be ignoring it. There was no outrage until recently, when the voter's preference in Florida, was losing.
Either or, maybe the voters of Florida and Michigan are missing something. You STILL get to vote in a general election. I'm sure every voter whos chosen candidate does not win the party leadership, will feel just as disenfranchised, would they not?
Florida, the land of Rump Pimple and now mAnn Coulter.
The old farts really suck up Faux News too and
they have no clue on how to vote their wallets.
nm @ 44:
What does that have to do with the topic? I am experiencing nm fatigue!
The estimable Kos hit on this issue earlier today:
What a disaster. The Democrats can hopefully win Michigan but I don't see how we can even compete in Florida without finding a way to re-vote there. It's gonna be extremely tough to ask voters of either state to support the Democratic candidate in the Fall while they have no say in the candidate selection process. I hope I'm wrong.
anneyhussein @ 74:
The state pays for primaries, which is why it set the date. The parties pay for caucuses, by the way.
nonbeliever @ 78:
If it's not about Obama or Clinton, then you'll agree the only solution is a state or state-party funded revote, or accepting the consequences of violating the warnings of Dean, which were loud and clear and repeated...so no delegates, get over it.
Clintons gone so far as to suggest MI should be seated as cast, despite the absence of other names on the ballot.....that's nuts, and she knows it....so this idea that it's about every state counting blah blah blah is a joke...
Alice Hussein @ 60:
We didn't get any of that crap down here in my (red)neck of the woods. Down west, we didn't even hear any noise about our votes "not counting" on the Dem side until 2 weeks before the election. One week before I heard it on CNN. For those of us who only get basic cable and don't have a lot of surfing time on the net, we can be pretty much left out of the loop down here.
I voted "uncommitted" on the Dem ticket even though I was pretty sure it wouldn't count. Edwards was already out and not on the ticket anyway. I know it may not be logical, but as a Michigan Democratic voter I feel like I was sold out. The state powers that be moved the primary up to give us a "greater voice" but what they were really looking for was all of the campaign and media $$ that are spent in the early primaries. Guess we're getting some attention now.
Peoples Front of Judea @ 69:
Do you have any idea how stoked we are here in Oregon? Our primary in May might actually mean something this year. We can dream can't we?
nonbeliever @ 84:
yeah, what gives you the idea that FL is full of 18 y/o petulant adolescents that would cut their nose off to spite their face just because nobody fixed their booboo.....
i thought it was a rather mature population that wouldn't pout the way you suggest they would....maybe had you (and others) made your arguments before this became such a contest, it would seem less selfishly motivated...
bushflipflops @ 48:
A voice of reason.
ConcernedHusseinCanuck @ 80:
I'm not wriggling around anything. I've stayed out of the primary wars, I just want to make sure McCain does not take the White House. You might think it's about Hillary for me but it's not. I've heard Hillary and her surrogates say they should seat Florida as they voted. I disagree because many Democrats stayed home thinking their vote wouldn't count. The only fair solution is a re-vote in Michigan and Florida.
And your logic is fundamentally flawed. Voting for your candidate and having your candidate lose fair and square is completely different from voting your candidate and not having your vote count at all.
Now the Democratic candidate has to go to Michigan and Florida and HOPE the voters of these 2 states don't punish him/her in the General Election for the deals made by idiot pols in their respective state legislatures.
[Deleted. thread spamming. We don't allow that here-Sitemonitor]
ohio progressive @ 86:
I would agree that a new election needs to be paid for by the state or state party or even the national party but it needs to get done. I'm not getting over it, you get over trying to tell me to get over it.
This is another reason why Hillary wouldn't make an effective Prez- using Bill as an attack dog, continuously mis-representing Obama's positions, posting Obama's 'turban' photo, presenting a "The End Justifies The Means" mentality after she originally agrred to not count FLA/MI votes, then add in Ferraro's racial statement- just shameful. Who's running your campaign, Hil, Karl Rove?
FINE. OK. Don't seat the delegates, then.
As a FL voter, I think that the 50/50 split is much worse than not seating the delegates at all.
Don't give Obama delegates that he did not truly earn. The 50/50 split delegate suggestion is VOTE STEALING.
ohio progressive @ 89:
And I thought people in Ohio would vote their pocketbooks and go with Kerry in '04. Florida is a swing state that hasn't voted for the Democratic candidate since '96. It's a bad idea for Democrats to alienate voters in swing states.
Nice try putting the blame on me of all people. I think it's better that we acknowledge the mistakes made and find a way to let Michigan and Florida re-vote.
[Deleted-Sitemonitor]
Awarding Florida votes to someone they didn't vote for is so fundamentally undemocratic that I wonder how anyone can propose that with a straight face. Do it over now and give both candidates a fair shot at those delegates. The same applies to Michigan. The national leadership of the Democratic Party chose to use an elephant gun where a flyswatter would have done and are entirely responsible for this mess. It won't take a Karl Rove to steer those states into the Republican camp and the message about the undemocratic Democratic party is one that will resonate in many other states. Anything less than a transparently fair solution will alienate either the Obama or the Clinton supporters and the hoped for asymmetrical voter turnout in favor of the democrats will evaporate. They have one chance to get this right and it better be soon.
Split them 50/50. That way, neither candidate is penalized. The State is represented, but there is still some punishment for breaking the rules. All these people can vote in November. There were rules in place and there are consequences for breaking them. Everyone gets a voice in the determining election. Grow up.
The anger being expressed by Clinton supporters is being used to mask their angst . It is quite recognizable and is already being replaced with the "just let MI and FL vote" stage.
1. Denial: The initial stage: "It can't be happening."
2. Anger: "Why me? It's not fair."
3. Bargaining: "Just let me live to see my children graduate."
4. Depression: "I'm so sad, why bother with anything?"
5. Acceptance: "It's going to be OK."
xargaw @ 99:
It isn't about penalizing candidates. It's about not cheating voters.
Goddamn Florida, always fucking Florida. What the fuck is going on down there??
I didn’t say split the vote. I said split the delegates that way neither candidate is given a unfair
You can’t have it all ways. You want to be seated, but you want your vote to effect the race, but you don’t want to pay for a new election.
Getting Florida and Michigan is easy as they can get seats after one candidate drops out of the race. Florida, Michigan and Hillary are being greedy by they want the popular vote to count too since Hillary’s only chance moving forward is to win the popular vote.
Tough luck! You’ve known for a year and a half that your popular vote wouldn’t count and everyone except for Senator Ben Nelson accepted it. You accepted it then, so accept it now.
My previous comment was presented incorrectly, with neither Mister Anderson's comments nor mine being properly quoted. Sorry for the error.
john @ 97:
I'm an Obama support but I don't disparage Clinton supporters.
She would be better than McWhat's his name.
Florida has been a national attention whore too long politically, as well as a huge drain on the national treasury economically. We spend much too much time obsessing about Florida. The state feeds at the the federal trough more than any other, yet sends one Republican after another to Washington to cut spending to other parts of the country. Until the population in Florida starts to act responsibility and put people with some integrity and common sense into state and local offices, then they deserve what they get.
The state is going Republican in the fall regardless of the eventual Democratic nominee. Get used to it and furgettaboutit. Move on.
Let me preface by saying I'm a big Obama fan.
The 50/50 split idea for Florida delegates is stupid. How does that represent the voters of Florida? Florida screwed up by voting early, and the only resolution is a revote. If the fuck-heads in Florida can't get a revote together (jeez, each campaign could kick in 5 million, its not like they're short of cash), then I guess you could seat the delegates but give them a half vote each.
For Michigan, I think Obama's going to have to suck it up and accept the revote. The party could allow people that voted in the Republican primary too. I know my mother voted in the Repub primary because she hates Romney and only Clinton, Kucinich, and Dodd were on the ballot. I don't see why Clinton should get an advantage from leaving her name on the ballot when the party urged everyone to pull their names off. Even if the voters in the Repub primary can't revote, Obama should accept it anyway. Clinton won't pick up so many delegates that it would make a difference.
Marge @ 5:
Blow it out your ass, Marge. I mean that with all due respect.
Don't the old geezers down there end up voting absentee in their home states anyway?
Old Billy Hussein @ 107:
The problem is this: the state has already proven it can get a regular vote right. Can you imagine what a mess they would make of a revote? As far as all the millions of dollars that it would cost to decide a mere handful of delegates, it makes me depressed just thinking about how many schools could be remodeled or rebuilt with that money. With such priorities as Americans, no wonder we're so f****'d as a country.
SM @ 95:
If Obama didn't "earn" any Florida delegate votes , then Hillary sure as shit didn't either ; she doesn't deserve a 50/50 split any more than Obama does .........
How are you going to keep the fascist republican assholes from fucking it all up, (as if they didn't already?) Seriously. How would a revote be possible without ending up a farce due to even more temporary party jumping right wingers trying to mess it up?
SM @ 95:
That's right: Obama DIDN'T earn the results in Florida because none of the Democrats campaigned there. Florida, fuck-ups that you are, jumped ahead of the other early-voting states and the national committee took steps to prevent Dems from campaigning there. No one ran ads, made calls, or talked to voters, and voters naturally voted for the oldest candidate. When Hillary "won" this primary, she immediately visited Florida and gave a victory speech and pretended that she'd done something right.
Mister Anderson @ 9:
For real!
Hillary wants the votes to count. Obama wants to abide by the rules.
Florida and Ohio are always problems. Why?
Jeb-FL and that guy who horded gold coins in OH.
HDon @ 112:
repugs alway fuck things up. they never play fair. the rat bastards.
rtghehe @ 92:
stop damit that last shot makes me hot!
I say fine. Florida is used to voters being disenfranchised. They don't seem to really care about their votes anyway. If they did, the 2000 election would have gone to Gore. They were told what would happen if they moved the primary, now live with it. Don't like it? Too bad, complain to representatives who voted to move the primary.
And I don't want to hear the sad story how it was the republicans who decided the date on the primary. Vote them out of office if you don't like what they did. Don't come complaining about it now.
ive got a better idea !lets just shitcan these two bums and get dennis kucinich elected! problem solved!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
bushflipflops @ 48:
Whatever your position on the issue, let's try and keep the grammar correct. No need to accept the repubican framing in trying to change our party name and useage. You can say "... voting for *a* democrat." or "... voting for *democrats*" or "... voting *democratic*." But make sure not to adopt the noun/adjective meme change that the repubes are having great success at suckering people into. (Yes, I know that I mangled their party name. It's part of my new meme change for them. They are also *wrong-wingers*.)
It pisses me off that I hear even members of our party not paying attention and using their fucked-up manipulation of *my* party's name and I call them on it every time I can.
And on the FL/MI thing. The rules were set. You violated them. No delegates. We'll let you come and hang out at the convention, but the best that should be afforded you is a 50/50 split of delegates and no popular vote count added to the coffers. Sorry. We are a nation of laws, no special exemptions... or at least we are supposed to be, and we can't be expected to have credibility with the general population unless we follow our own rules and practice what we preach.
C'mon, take one for the team and then come through in the general election kicking the repubes asses up and down the ticket to prove that we can maintain our principles. But more importantly to save our constitution and our country. When MI and FL come in 66/33 for the democratic candidate we will all personally come to your state, pat each and every one of you on the back and buy you a beer to celebrate the saving this grand experiment from the jaws of the evil repubican fascists.
Whose idea is it for the Democratic Party to implode and begin eating their young during this most dangerous and crucial election cycle?
azdanno @ 120:
the DLC, DSCC and DCCC
SM @ 95:
and how would seating the delegates as they currently stand not be clinton stealing?? she agreed to the rules too (then broke them by fundraising there), and now wants a faux election to count? how can anyone think that is the right solution?
At this point, for the good of the party and the November election, I think she should step down...it is IMPOSSIBLE for her to pass obama in delegates, so her only chance is convincing superdelegates to join her side. i am having flashbacks to the '68 convention...
Florida has 27 electoral college votes while Michigan has 17. So just in case we lose Florida and Michigan in November which states are the Democratic candidates going to pick up to make up for the loss of these 2 states?
azdanno @ 120:
Oh, that was me. My bad.
nonbeliever @ 123:
i think Obama brings a possible 6-8 states into play that would otherwise be lost...the Clinton hatred on the right has not gone anywhere, people...she can not bring in the moderates that he can. As long as this racial bullshit doesn't swiftboat obama, things will look good in november, even with florida and michigan losses...IMHO.
You know, Florida's voting history sucks, they have a long and dirty past when it comes to messing with elections, votes and voters.
They really don't deserve a bail out or a second try, they had their opportunity and decided to disregard their personal and civic responsibilities.
Anyone could see this train wreck coming from miles away and yet Floridians chose to sit on their thumbs.
I say disenfranchise 'em, leave 'em out this time around. They'll behave better next time if they are serious about their votes being counted. Florida must reap what it has sown.
anneyhussein @ 74:
1) the republican legislature attached a date-change amendment to Democratic-sponsored legislation to ensure a paper trail for the vote. The democrats voted to support the paper trail and had to accept the date change. The DNC disallowed the vote because the date-change violated some rule of approval - something about not preceding certain belleweather state primaries.
2) I can't answer that one
nonbeliever @ 123:
WA, OR, CA, NM, NV, CO, IA, MN, MO, HI, IL, WI, OH, PA, NY, VT, ME, MA, CT, RI, NJ, DE, MD, VA, WV, NC, TN, and DC
That's 332 and President Obama!
(And there's no way Michigan doesn't go Democratic this year regardless of the primary)
nonbeliever @ 123:
texas and pennsylvania
anneyhussein @ 74:
2. The state of Florida pays for it, and both the Republican and Democratic primary are set on the same day to limit cost and double voters.
azdanno @ 120:
New to Democratic Party politics, eh?
BaScOmBe whose saying "NO REPUGS" @ 129:
Texas? It could happen, but I think Arkansas, Kentucky, Kansas and Nebraska would come over before Texas.
Old Billy Hussein @ 132:
Here's a theoretical possibility:
In the West, take: CA (55); WA (11); CO (9); OR (7); NM (5); HI (4);
In the Midwest, take: IL (21); OH (20); MN (10); WI (10);
In the East, take: NY (31); PA (21); OH (20); VA (13); NJ (15); MA (12); MD (10); CT (7); ME (4); NH (4); RI (4); VT (3); DE (3); DC (3)
That's 282.
MJAG @ 125:
I hope you're right. Obama gave a great speech today. My hope is that it struck the proper tone with middle of the road voters that he'll need if he's the nominee. But, I don't think we should just assume either candidate will have an easy time of it in November.
nonbeliever @ 123:
Michigan won't even be close, and Florida isn't needed if we get Ohio and Pennsylvania, two states that went overwhelmingly Democratic in 2006. Then you add in states like Iowa, New Mexico, and Colorado that have been moving left over the last few years, and we should win the electoral college by a wide margin with or without Florida.
Karen @ 133:
And come to think of it, we could lose Colorado in that line-up and still have 273.
Hillary says Michigan should count right? OK , so let her take her name off the ballot in the big state of Pennsylvania and give her the split in Fla... free and fair?
Let's look at the electoral college map:
More than likely we should win the same states Kerry won in 2004, so that is 252 electoral votes (counting the faithless elector).
The close states that went for Bush were:
Iowa (0.67% difference)
New Mexico (0.79%)
Ohio (2.11%)
Nevada (2.59%)
Colorado (4.67%)
Let's give McCain New Mexico and Nevada since his home state is near there, and he has good relationships with latino voters.
We know form 2006 that the Democratic party made big gains in Ohio. If that stays the same then we get 20 more electoral votes for the needed total of 272 to win. Throw in Iowa (7), Colorado (9), and even a state like Virginia (13) that has been moving to the left lately, and you get a total of 301.
If the state from 2004 hold, and we pick up Ohio, or a few other states, then Florida is an afterthought.
Old Billy Hussein @ 128:
I said earlier that it's likely we keep Michigan. I'm still wary of southern states but I do agree Virginia is trending blue. I'd like to see us take Ohio convincingly.
I would say, anybody in FL or MI who feels that strongly about it, rather than walk away in a pout, send 20 bucks or 50 or even a hundred to the candidate of your choosing.
there, you voted
your vote was counted
and if you want to get double credit, , vote against whichever local yocal had a hand in getting your state penalized next time their head is on the chopping block...
Karen @ 133:
Hanging Hussein Chad @ 126:
Yeah... YOU WILL behave better next time when John McCain wins Florida and Michigan and ULTIMATELY the White House because folks like you SAID "WE" 1.6 MILLION DEMOCRATS IN FLORIDA VOTES SHOULDN"T COUNT.
Howard Dean ...this election is ULTIMATELY YOUR SOLE RESPONSIBILITY IF WE LOOSE IN NOVEMBER. We voted and we know WHO WE VOTED for. Let ANYBODY try and STEAL that election away from us.
Adios Senor!!
Wonderland @ 141:
nobody is saying you don't count....
it's just that no fair minded rational person agrees with the idea that MI and FL should count as cast
.... and if you can't see how that would be horribly unfair-- even more unfair than your not getting a vote-- well then i suppose you are a diehard clinton supporter....
the whole country is rooting for you to figure out a way to fix the mess you got yourself into....
but "count it as cast" is absurd
i'm confused. how is it vote stealing when candidates did not campaign in the state so none of the average joe electorate had a chance to hear the candidates on their issues directly?
don't give me any of this bellyaching bitching that there is a)the internet and b)obama aired ads in florida, even though they were part of a regional ad buy that never should have aired in florida.
isn't it convienient that even though no campaigning was to take place in florida hillary has a fundraiser there and holds a non-victory victory speech in florida the night of the primary?
my thought is reguardless of who was left of the democrats at the time the primary was initially held or who is still running, michigan shouldn't count because not all of the candidates were on the ballot and florida sure as hell shouldn't count because the electorate didn't know the candidates. reguardless of what anyone says, it was NOT an even playing field. i personally did not decide who to really support until a few weeks after super tuesday. i'm an informed voter, which is why i made my decision so early. but i know that there are a bunch of people who don't consider things like that and won't decide until a few weeks to a few days until election day. and not only am i in one of those small states that don't matter, i'm in one of those late states that won't see any action from either candidates until a few a few weeks before our primary date.
but most importantly the reason those votes should not count is because their primary dates were moved up and both states knew in advance what would happen if they moved up their primary dates. and it wasn't like that either state democratic party couldn't have set their individual official delegate electing elections to a later date. washington did it. kansas did it. hawaii did it. if both states insisted on moving up their primaries knowing the consequences, then both state democratic parties should have moved their individual primaries back.
if anything to prevent the unprecedented and uncontrollable chaos that it may cause, the dnc has to stick to their decision. if anyone in florida or michigan has a problem with that, then they need to vote out every single member of their state legislatures who voted to move the dates up and their governors who signed the bills into law. but don't blame the dnc for following its own rules and barack obama for abiding by the agreement ALL of the democratic possibles agreed to.
ohio progressive @ 142:
Do you EVEN read before you post?
Here is Hussein Hanging Chad @ 126 EXACT quote below:
"I say disenfranchise ‘em, leave ‘em out this time around. They’ll behave better next time if they are serious about their votes being counted. Florida must reap what it has sown."
That's what I was referring to.
Karen @ 136:
Nice lineup. Even though you put Ohio in the East and Midwest. Totally understandable. They are right next to Pennsylvania. :) That's the way we should all be thinking. I'm for a popular vote but in the meantime we have to win the electoral college. I've been considering how either Democratic candidate gets over 270 electors.
Survey USA published a poll recently showing both candidates beating McSame but with different paths to 270.
Wonderland @ 144:
maybe you haven't been keeping up, but it looks likely that what hussein recommends will happen....
there will be no malice....but there will be no delegates from MI or FL,
as the Clinton camp is delusional and wants it all, and the Obama camp is comfortable to patiently insist on a perfect revote..... and nobody seems to want to pay a dime....not even Soros...
maybe I am cynical....but it looks like the only fair solution is going to be no solution
Thank god,
They broke the rules, they shouldn't get a revote. And the people that want Florida to just give all their delegates to Clinton are misguided, Obama was barely known at the time (most people wont even pay attention until the general race really starts) and wasn't allowed to campaign there. You want to let Hillary Clinton get delegates she won solely because of her last name? Doesn't sound very democratic to me
If only they'd given up in 2000, and gone with the popular vote.
Anyway, it's a little late to be trying to "fix it up" now, isn't it? It's done, decisions were made and everyone followed along.
ohio progressive @ 146:
Being cynical? No solution? Let the DNC NOT HEED the VOICE of 1.6 MILLION Floridians who went OUT and faithfully CAST their VOTE FOR THE CANDIDATE OF OUR CHOICE..
If their answer is NO, I believe You will be feeling the same way I am feeling right now in November, perhaps even worse.
All of you Obama supporters were once Clinton (Bill) supporters (you know you were). You are to blame for this current mess. If the voters and the press had actually listened to Gennifer Flowers' allegations against Bill Clinton (later proven to be true) in the early 90's, we wouldn't be experiencing this disaster.
Login or Register to post comments.