The "Marlboro Man" Tells About Life In Iraq
By Nicole Belle Monday Mar 17, 2008 4:50pm
This photo has become an iconic image of the Iraqi invasion and occupation, dubbed "The Marlboro Man." BBC America (with correspondent Dan Rather) looks at the man in the picture, James Blake Miller, and his views on why we're in Iraq and how he's coping now stateside.
I can’t identify with “home” any more. You drift from place to place, searching to find the one place you do feel comfortable that you can stick around, you can stay. It’s like your looking for that one place that gives you peace of mind.
America’s always been looked at as the world’s police. And we’ve done that for a long time. There’s nothing wrong with helping people out. But when it comes down to, you know, okay, in order for us to do this, we’re gonna run your country, it doesn’t work like that. There’s a fine line between helping someone and you know, more or less taking over. And I feel that we do that. And I think we’ve really crossed that boundary with Iraq.
When I look at the picture, I don’t see much of nothing. Make of it what you want, what you will. I was just doing what the hell I was told at the time. I didn’t ask for it, never did want nothing to do with it.
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This sort of dirty face is common where diesel trucks without exhaust controls.
People making it into a symbol are better off listening to his words.
"I didn't ask for it, never did want nothing to do with it." Huh????
What the hell did you think you were signing up for??? Let me guess, he also voted twice for Chimpy and is a hughe supporter of McCain.
Does anyone else think that the cigarette looks photo-shopped in?
The Truth Hurts @ 2:
It would be nice if the posters on this blog, while rightly opposing the war, didn't disrepect the soldiers.
Also, you should check out this documentary that the LA times and MediaStorm produced on Miller.
http://mediastorm.org/0020.htm
Richard @ 4:
Grow a spine and quit hiding behind the troops and the flag. Just because someone wears an uniform it doesn't guard them from scrutiny.
What we are doing, have done to Iraq is just a distant reflection-mirror image of the USA.
We're spiraling out of control at home and no one knows what the hell to do or how to fix it.
"I can’t identify with “home” any more. You drift from place to place, searching to find the one place you do feel comfortable that you can stick around, you can stay. It’s like your looking for that one place that gives you peace of mind."
Reminds me of the Vietnam War vets I've know who drugged/drank themselves to death in the years after the war over the confusion and guilt of what they had done.
The ones who either bought the vietnam/righteous war meme and it was "all good by them" fared ok, and the ones who went hard anti-war/anti-military did ok.
It was the ones socio-psychologically stuck in the middle who had the problems.
I've been keepting track of Mr. Miller since he came home.
I wish him nothing but the best but I fear his life is going to end badly.
errrr paul in la, that sort of dirty face is common in the military in an active combat zone where the troops are using camo paint which is what that is.
truth hurts, although you seem to want to further the false meme that troops support war amd war mongers the reality is usually quite different. I don't know about this former soldiers attitude on it but I do know that a great many soldiers NEVER supported the war in Iraq or the bush regime. But thanks for pushing the gop talking points.
that pic looks really photoshopped
Dr. Hussein Matt @ 6:
Didn't say that it doesn't protect them from scutiny but they should be given a little respect and not be subject to snarky speculation. We don't know if this guy supported Bush or supports McCain and we certainly don't know that he enlisted in order to fight in Iraq.
The Truth Hurts @ 2:
Listen to the report: He wanted to escape the coal mines, which are viewed as the only employment opportunity in his town. He viewed joining the Marines as the way to get out. That's a pretty common reason people join the military and a reason recruiting targets poor communities.
Richard @ 4:
It would also be nice if people stopped volunteering for the armed services in a country that has an enormous history of precisely the type of behavior that Mr.Miller is disgusted by.
I wouldn't go as far as claiming to know his voting record, and don't see the point of even guessing, but soldiers are not free from criticism, and it isn't disrespectful to take umbrage with their decisions to enlist in the first place.
The Truth Hurts @ 2:
I believe the young man was referring to his 15+ minutes of fame via the photograph.
let's assume he knew he'd see combat as he enlisted as a Marine post-9/11. OK?
oh, and take a nuprin and untangle the knot in yer panties Francis!
Dr. Hussein Matt @ 3:
Yes it does.
Even stranger he kind of resembles Obama.
My friend was in the Guard long before 9-11. He never expected to be in a war, he was against war and he surely didn't believe the reasons that were given for invading Iraq. He was sent over there for 13 months, in fact he spent his 50th birthday over there.
I feel sorry for this Marlboro man. He's just a kid and he signed up because it was that or breath coal dust the rest of his life. I'm sure the idea of being a military man appealed to him on a lot of different fronts. He could wear a uniform and when he came back he would be called a "hero". Sadly, when he came home he had nothing much more than when he left. I bet there are a lot of young kids just like him who come home to nightmares of what they have seen and done and have no way to seek the help they need.
Paul in LA @ 1:
Yep. And with his words, I'm afraid he might labeled a phony soldier by Limpdick and OReilly.
I think Red Lasso is playing havoc with this site. Real buggy this is the 5th crash I've had.
L.A. Confidential @ 7:
Anyway think about it.
Sue @ 13:
Ting-a-ling!
If you ever want to have at least a snowball's chance in hell for a decent career in this country, you either go to college or join the military. If you or your family can't afford the former, guess where you wind up. I knew a lot of people in the Air Force who joined solely because they couldn't afford college.
Sad.
Anybody else find it interesting he has the same name as Tom Hanks' character in Saving Private Ryan?
L.A. Confidential @ 19:
Yip it's Red Lasso.
6th Crash during there data transfer.
This is weird.
It comes off as satire when he puts two cigs in his mouth while he's riding that motorcycle.
that was stupid footage to keep in.
This guy is the product of a system thats been designed to create soldiers. Whether he volunteered for it or not, no decent human being in their right mind could possibly agree with the mission they have been assigned to nor the policies they've been assigned to do it under (which are based on nothing but lies).
Blue Taliban Osama Buddha @ 21:
Even Jimi Hendrix was in the Army. 101st Airborne.
This is a tough thing to see whether you support the war or not. Who knows what made him join up - could have been false 9/11 pretenses, after all.
At the same time we need to recognize that his "hate the war love the warrior" angle is really saying "I'm against the war but I'm not one of those UN-AMERICANS who don't support the troops!". It's the result of a very effective right-wing, pro-war propaganda spin. It's working.
I mean are you anti-war or not? Hard to love warriors if you're an advocate for peace. Just a thought. I don't really know where I stand on this one yet. Mostly I can't help but feel deeply concerned for the people over there now and the ones getting royally screwed coming home.
Eric
www.changeany1thing.com
L.A. Confidential @ 27:
Yep. Got kicked out for, among other things, excessive masturbation.
Let's get to the essential truths, here.
I'm a Vietnam vet. Back in my day, at least when you were getting drafted or volunteered and were sent there, you at least had an America that still had industry and good paying jobs in it you could come back to.
Today the military is now all-volunteer. But in todays America, there are no jobs for the young men,so in effect, there is a de facto draft -- either join the military or starve trying to work minimum wage or other shit jobs. So, please stop blaming this very poor young man for trying to get out of Apalachia. The Army and Marines gave him a bullshit story (you've heard them, "Be All You Can Be," An Army of One," "The Few, The Proud") about getting an education and benefits, and the only thing the neo-cons saw these young men for was cannon fodder.
James Blake Miller, I respect your service, sir. Welcome home, and if you ever get up to New York State, this swabbie owes you a beer or two.
Volum Hussein @ 14:
Rusty zOMG! 20 years!1! Shackleford @ 29:
There ya go they still kicking guys out for that? Or did the Military catch on and now days say, nope your not pulling that trick on us soldier?
What war? There is NO war! Does it make it more appetizing to Americans to call it a war over and over, like there is some kind of opposing army somewhere? There is no war. This is an occupation where Iraqis are trying to kick out the occupier the best way they can. They are really no different than America's creators fighting the British Empire.
7th crash. Man whats up with the site today we under attack?
Nicole Belle: Yes, we are. We're doing what we can to keep the servers up.
medlakeguy @ 11:
Either that or Marlboro Man has a strange growth protruding from the outside of his upper lip that closes resembles a cigarette.
Richard @ 31:
Richard @ 31:
I don't believe that the kids who volunteer for the armed services are the enemy. I think it makes much much more sense to criticize the people who sent him to Iraq and the people running the war, especially in the case of this kid who has realized that there are significant problems with what he did there. This guy is an ally in trying to end this war and to snipe at him is just plain stupid.
To think that I called him "the enemy" is just plain stupid.
Why can't I criticize an adult for joining the US armed services, when this country has such an ugly 50+ year history of exactly the type of occupations and invasions that Mr.Miller is against? Even he stated that what we're doing in Iraq, is exactly what we've been doing elsewhere for a long time.
I completely understand the various reasons why people join; discipline/stability in their life, money for college, no prospect for decent work in their hometown- But I will never buy into the notion that the military is the only option for people who don't know where else to go. If the difference is either working at Wal Mart, or invading a country and killing innocent civilians, is it really that difficult to make the *right* decision?
I have great respect for what Mr.Miller and others (think they) have done for us (including a great number of my family members), whether that was misguided or not. But, I also have great pains to know so many voluntarily enlisted when they more than likely knew what the outcome would be.
It's so sad to see Dan Rather and the Marlboro soldier continue to perpetuate the myth that all American men and women who don the uniform are heroic symbols of courage, conviction, and righteous honor whether fighting in Falluja, Haditha, Baghdad, or My Lai. The 'photo' was a time when the Marlboro soldier was dazed and basically incapacitated from shock - so Rather begins the story by saying "where do we find these amazing men ..." etc which totally contradicts that the guy is just your average young soldier and not at all some mythic savior. Then the Marlboro man himself perpetuates another huge lie. He sets up the Falluja battle as a few thousand Marines against hoardes of Al Quida (tens of thousands). WTF? The US military was using jet air support, helicopters, white phosphorus, laser weaponry, sound-wave weapons, and a shitload of high-tech stuff we don't even know about AGAINST Iraqis who basically had rocks, sticks, and a few old AKs. Why is this fucking lie always perpetuated that anyone in a US military uniform is by definition a saint and an American icon close to Jesus?
Blue Taliban Osama Buddha @ 21:
If you ever want to have at least a snowball's chance in hell for a decent career in this country, you either go to college or join the military. If you or your family can't afford the former, guess where you wind up. I knew a lot of people in the Air Force who joined solely because they couldn't afford college.
That is such nonsense. Our work-force isn't full of people who either went to college or joined the military.
I did neither, and not only did I survive, but I also thrived. Many of my co-workers, same story. And none of us are privileged or come from affluence. I grew up on a farm in BFE Michigan, escaped to a better place, and worked my ass off to scrape by and finally get my head above water.
This isn't an either/or world.
Richard @ 4:
These morons that decide to kill for money deserve what they get.
"I was just doing what the hell I was told at the time. I didn't ask for it, never did want nothing to do with it"....
And THAT is the way it is for all enlisted ranks in any branch of the service... And THAT is why we here in the 'real' world do not have the right to give this guy or any of the rest of the enlisted troops on the ground getting chewed up any shit. Technically the way it works is you disobey an order with scrambled eggs on your hat or gold stars on your shoulders, you get relieved and reassigned..YOU do that same shit as an enlisted man or woman.. Worst case scenario in a hot war? You can end up like Eddie Slovik, best case? Time at hotel Leavenworth and no future once they cut you free... What really happens is you get every shit detail coming down the pike until you either 'shape up and get with the program' or you die (KIA is the technical term) or get maimed..(WIA they'll call it)....whichever comes first...
So for all the santimonious assholes who want to give all these people eyeball deep into this shitstorm with no way out at this particular moment, and, who are in fact someones moms, dads, brothers, uncles, sisters, cousins etc a ration from the comforts of the armchairs, and make no mistake, I'm just as guilty as the next blogger... I'm askin for everyone to take a moment out first... Nevermind considering what you'd do in that situation because obviously you are too smart, too something or other to have made that mistake in the first place... Naw, fuck that shit..
No, I'm asking EVERYONE... To just consider just who is really responsible for the shitstorm these people find themselves in in the first place... And direct your ire, your indignation your rightous anger at those principles responsible for this disgrace...
And then demand IMPEACHMENT! Because when we all give it a thoughtful moments consideration, any logical, humane thinking person knows that marboro guy don't have dick to do with this mess... He just got caught up in it, same as everyone else. We ALL know who really caused this shit.... And that is why impeachment, criminal charges, incarceration, forfiture of assets, CAPITAL punishment for the REAL purps is what is needed, what is necessary... What amounts to the only course for setting this mess straight and having any chance of restoring this nations honor. There is just no mistaking who really needs to catch hell for this...And one of them is now a political pundit... Imagine that shit!
As for me, an ex squid? I got nothing but sympathy for those poor guys and gals following orders in a hot war they didn't ask for any more than we did, riding those hummers, toting those weapons, bleeding and dying all over Iraq because of the hubris, the ego, the duplicity of idiot politicians with no clue and no plan for proper governance of this nation.. Motherfucking assholes, men and women both, who's sole purpose in this, as it has been in everything they do in this life.. Is self agrandizement, attaining and keeping power for its own sake, and greedmongering with a trumped up war as the vehicle to attain those goals...
Those people are the assholes who need to pay the freight on this clusterfuck... NOT this marboro guy, not any of the other enlisted people... The repudiation of the so-called Neuremberg defense only applies generally to officers and political leaders.
Not enlisted personnel except in instances where it can be proven an enlisted person broke the UCMJ and/or international laws independent of orders... The Fallujah massacre comes to mind as a possible instance where some enlisted people went beyond orders to carry out reprisal murder... But to be condemned just for following an order to go on patrol? That led to a firefight? That ended up with people dead and/or wounded? Naw, not buyin....That trooper who followed orders, who did not give in to the urge for revenge, who just did 'what the hell he/she was told to do at the time'... will always get a pass from me. They ought to get a pss from you people too all things being equal... After all, it might just be that these enlisted soldiers, sailors, marines, airmen and women and Natl guards could be someone you know too... Including but not exclusive to being a relative......JD
The smoke suggests the cigarette caught the left side of his uniform on fire, which is curious considering the cigarette isn't it.
The LA Times did a multi-part series of articles about this guy and the post-war troubles he has seen -- mental illness, substance abuse, failed marriage, violence, PTSD, etc. Very sad case.
1000 yard stare with product placement.
It is a Corporate War after all.
Jesus Hussein Christ, one can hardly take any fault with anyone in the military without an enormous shitload of people frothing at the mouth, ready to take you out.
These people are people. And not all of them join this shit to do good. There are PLENTY of them who join up to go "kick some arab ass".
Didn't you listen to Winter Soldier? I heard from one soldier who had the words "FUCK YOU" tattoo'd on his arm in Arabic, on his "choking arm" so the Iraqi's could see it as he's cutting off their oxygen.
This guy joined to specifically go and kill people, and not just any people, but specifically BROWN PEOPLE.
Doesn't that absolve the Marlboro man of any and all guilt just as surely as the same excuse absolved those at Nuremburg?
L.A. Confidential @ 34:
I'm having the exact same thing happen. Anyone else?
[Yes. Same thing happening-Sitemonitor]
Lee @ 38:
Hollywood glorification of war. It beats the media reporting close up photos of a US GI blowing the brains out of some innocent Iraqi that did not understand english. It's the "we are the good guys" syndrome.
The Truth Hurts @ 2:
Ever been through eastern Kentucky? As the dude says, it was a way out.
When I look at the picture, I don’t see much of nothing. Make of it what you want, what you will. I was just doing what the hell I was told at the time. I didn’t ask for it, never did want nothing to do with it.
The Nuremberg Defense is a legal defense that essentially states that the defendant was "only following orders" ("Befehl ist Befehl") and is therefore not responsible for his crimes. The defense was most famously employed during the Nuremberg Trials, after which it is named.
Read it and weep.
Before the end of World War II, the Allies suspected such a defense might be employed, and issued the London Charter of the International Military Tribunal, which specifically stated that this was not a valid defense against charges of war crimes.
Thus, under the Nuremberg Principles, "defense of superior orders" is not a defense for war crimes, although it might influence a sentencing authority to lessen the penalty.
"The fact that a person acted pursuant to order of his Government or of a superior does not relieve him from responsibility under international law, provided a moral choice was in fact possible to him."
The United States military adjusted the Uniform Code of Military Justice after World War II. They included a rule nullifying this defense, essentially stating that American military personnel are allowed to refuse unlawful orders.
Those of you who are deriding our soldiers and sailors over the Iraq Occupation would do well to remember that the military does not decide who or where to invade; that is the purview of the civilian command structure (President, Congress, SecDefense, among others). To blame this man, or any warrior, for the invasion is pure idiocy. Focus your hatred on the ones who put our country in this mess, the neo-cons and the Boosh administration. Not the men and women in uniform who, BTW, serve the country, not just your side.
For the record, I have been against the whole Iraq Invasion/Occupation since the beginning; I knew it was a mistake to take our eyes off the ball in Afghanistan, where we had a chance to cripple the only significant terrorist organization out there. But I support the military as an organization, a necessary one, even though it has fallen into a morass not of its own making.
ConcernedHusseinCanuck @ 49:
The only good guys, are the defenders.
The Iraqi's and the Afghani's and Palestinians are the 'good guys'. Rocks, Slingshots. A few homemade bombs.
Give them the missiles, tanks and f-16's. and give the US and Israeli's the Rocks and Slingshots...
Then maybe the "terrorists" on my TV screens and newspapers would be real threats, and not just children burned alive, or shot. Why?
For what?
http://www.deathmasters.com/page1.htm
Nice post Jack.
As a vet, I couldn't agree more. What some people also seem to forget is that not everyone joins the military for the purpose of killing. I joined because my parents wouldn't give me any money for college but made too much for me to qualify for any grants and most low-interest loans. The military was the easiest way for me to earn money for college. Being someone who didn't want to actually do any killing, I became a "weather guesser," thinking my conscience would stay clean.
Unbeknownst to me, that ended up not being the case. Atmospherics are a big part of missile guidance and I now I get to wake up for the rest of my life with blood on my hands.
I didn't ask to go to Iraq. I went because I was ordered to go and disobeying that order would take food out of my children's mouths.
When my time was up, I left, even though my retirement was only 5 years away, because I had to decide what was more important, 2K a month until I die or my values. It wasn't easy and I have a lot of "what ifs" and my family has taken about 5 steps backwards financially, but they support what I did.
As for the people who want to point fingers at the military...well, there's a reason armchairs are so comfortable. A lot of people spend their entire lives quarterbacking from them.
Volum Hussein @ 46:
That is sick and disturbing. Where did you get info on Winter Soldier (the new one)?
Of course its wrong, as Richard said, to assume that this guy went into the military for this reason or supports Bush and McCain (like Truth Hurts suggested).
I agree with Richard, there is no reason to assume the worst about any servicemember. Y'all heard today that the Rev. Jeremiah Wright was in the Marines. You'd be wrong if you had assumed stereotypes about him too.
Besides the perceived benefits of the GI bill or career training, its important to remember that recruiters lie. And what about all those slick Madison Ave. ads with Marines fighting fire-dragons and shit? The military even produces video games these days to try to lure in recruits.
You have obviously never worn the uniform of any branch of service for even a single day. The first standing order that any soldier learns is to disobey and unlawful order. Military honor demands that we always be prepared to disobey that rare psycho seargent who orders us to rape an 11-year old girl or while watching some teen Iraqi boys playing soccer make a game of target practice and explode one of their heads with a 50mm shell. Only a civilian totally unaware of military culture would use the excuse that committing an atrocity is excused because you were just following an order.
Tough video to watch. I don't know about everyone else, but it took a good 40 minutes to get the darn thing to play out.
War is hell. I feel for those poor grunts. I was one in Nam, and you worry about staying alive and protecting your buddy....that's it. All this other bullshit is just bullshit when you are on the front lines.
This country is going to pay for this war for a whole generation of injured vets. Those in the back typing papers don't know what this dude is talking about. When your life is on the line, and you are human fodder, it changes your whole life.
As for these numbnuts in this administration, not a one of them knows what this is about. Nearly all have never served, and with the exception of mcbush being a prisoner of war, they have no idea what "war is hell" even means. They think it's "an economic term".
ConcernedHusseinCanuck @ 33:
http://www.tomdispatch.com/post/174906/philip_k_dick_meet_george_w_bush
Steven Stealhurt @ 23:
And he has the similar pose to what Tom Hank's character was when he said, 'Yes it is, quite a view.'
Anyway I believe politics and this soldier don't mix. And I think its fucked up that some of the posters here are attacking the poor man, based presumptively on his political beliefs. There is no evidence that he supports McCain. There is no evidence he is Republican. Your comments only help to further fuel the claims from the other side that liberals are the same people who spat on Vietnam veterans and called them baby killers in the 70's, or 'don't support the troops'.
The real cancer is the leadership, and to this day I fail to understand how they got a second term.
Navy Hussein Vet and Jack Damage says it all.
jack damage @ 41:
It's the fault of the slaves who think that they need the master that they call "Government"
Dr. Hussein Matt @ 3:
If you get a chance to see the segment, that guy was chain smoking Marly Reds. That ciggy didn't have to be Photoshopped.
Lee @ 47:
What a statement. I haven't seen this kind of REAL soldier bashing on any forum/blog up until now. Comparing US soldiers, kids I grew up with, who really wanted to help out and volunteer in a way most people my age never even think about, with the trials of officers/party leaders/etc at Nuremburg is just historically ignorant. These soldiers aren't running death camps. Save your anger for the politicians and generals who were stupid enough to get us into this mess and do it so badly. Disgusting.
Miller, who joined the USMC to develop a law enforcement career, was participating in the first Fallujah pogrom in 2004 when the picture was snapped.
And his sufferings have continued:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Blake_Miller#Early_years
Give the guy another ten years, and he will be sleeping under the bridge being mocked by the O'Reilly of the next decade (the first having blown his own brains out in 2013, during a gun-cleaning accident).
Volum Hussein @ 37:
More than likely? I seriously doubt that. I haven't seen a commercial on TV that says anything about killing women and children. You'd be hard pressed to find one on the "news". They didn't cover all the little underhanded deals we've pulled in South America and elsewhere in high school either. I'd be surprised if the teachers even know. You can fault the parents somewhat.. maybe.. for their own ignorance, but not the kids.
If you want to feel pain. Feel it for yourself. If my family members were thinking of enlisting and I knew what I know now, I'd feel a complete ass for not educating them about their country's history. Gulf of Tonkin, Iran, Iraq, Phillipines... theres certainly plenty of examples. If you (we) don't bother to educate the next generation, we really have only ourselves to blame.
So, from future police career to illegally-deployed Marine, to head case, to motorcycle gang member with ZERO chance of becoming a cop.
Another tragic trajectory sponsored by Bushco, and approved by Bushco's new product, John 'Eternal War for Racism' McAin't.
it took the British media to get this story out
a story about an American icon of a mainly American war.
He looks a bit like Obama the victim. Are you sure this isn't photo shopped?
Ricky @ 64:
Have you ever tried to 'educate' a kid out of being a Marine? I have, several times. I currently have an OVERJOYED cousin who is being deployed to Japan (he and his proud family thinks he's in the clear, when of course he is just midway to his eventual fuckup).
The idea that history, especially when spun from the anti-military leftist perennial lack of context, will change these brave young fools into old farts on blogs is HILARIOUS. Try it some time.
who me @ 67:
You look like a Republican troll. Are you sure you aren't an asshole?
Pete&Pete @ 62:
You think? These first of all are MARINES, not soldiers. Secondarily, the racist USMC I have talked with, over and over and over, are CERTAINLY little better than Nazis or the Rising Sun mass-murderers they teamed up with.
And once you start talking about the MERCENARIES CENTCOM allowed into their illegal clusterfuck, you are MILES away, parsecs away, from Eisenhower's army. Murdering 'Haji's' like throwing away gum wrappers, these modern Marines are just the same as the ones who did the 25+ My Lai massacres in Vietnam. Under orders -- orders exactly like those which drew swift hanging from Allied authorities at Nuremberg and the equivalent tribunal in Asia.
Volum Hussein @ 14:
Thats real ignorant man. The recruiters were all over our High School.. They pitch it like its just a job.. like IBM on career day. They talk about the bonuses you'll make and how fast you can be promoted and how they'll pay for your college. This was in the late 90's... we hadnt had a bad war since Vietnam which none of us could identify with. And you're talking about 16, 17 year old kids.... You can get DEP'd in and go to MEPS at 16 with a parental waiver and swear in and ship off at 17. And these recruiters push it like you wouldnt believe... and if you start wavering they start threatening to take away your scholarships.. or your MOS.. or your enlistment bonuses.
No other job pushes people to join like the military and no other job requires a long-term contract like the military.. but to listen to the recruiters explain it in High Schools to 13-18 year olds its just like working at the local Automotive repair shop but more glamorous and with better benefits.
Traitor! There must be a way to prosecute him! After all, he most certainly knows freedom is on the march in the Middle East. He should go to jail for expressing such slanderous views about his country. He can't possibly love his country, and Freedom and express such views, and we all know that being disillusioned with the behavior of your country (if your country is the USA anyway) is tantamount to being a traitor (unless, of course, he were to quickly join an evangelical church in Texas, find Jesus, and realize it's the gays that make it OK to slam airplanes full of American citizens into our skyscrapers-- then he is OK). Maybe we can get William Kristol to take up the cause. He is for prosecuting his professional colleagues as traitors for reporting the bad behavior of our country. A man of his level of integrity ought to easily be able to help railroad this young man to Leavenworth. I'll bet he could manage it all from the comfort of his living room with his laptop. Kristol is such a faithful warrior for the cause of Freedom. It makes me shudder to think of the courage he has had to muster to fend off the endless onslaught of bits and bytes fired at him daily in his struggle for Freedom and what is righteous, and American. If only this young man had opened his eyes to such noble struggles and sacrifices he wouldn't be the traitor that he is today. Pity.
God I love Freedom! Have you heard? Its on the march again. America stands tall.
Paul in LA @ 70:
You're real messed up man.
And they didnt try 18 year old soldiers at Nuremberg.. they tried a handful of people at the top.
Dr. Hussein Matt @ 6:
Grow a conscience.
ah, the libertarian anarchists are out in force, choosing to hit on this marine, who fulfilled an obligation that the society they are a part of required.
speak ye from the halls of warped radicalism targeting the very people they need to save.
Talk about saving a village by burning it, look in the mirror, or participate in the system.
lapse of action is not more moral, its absent..
Volum Hussein @ 46:
Do you think that guy grew up hating arabic people? Do you think he even had an opinion on them either way before the mass xenophobia/hysteria the media and our government induced after 9/11?
And I've been listening to the Winter Soldiers tapes on Democracy now.. I've never heard that one.. but I've heard many from soldiers who were genuinely appalled by what they saw in Iraq. And from listening to them.. it seems much of the racism and hatred came from the top and worked its way down to the soldiers.
I think its easy to snipe them while sitting in front of your computer.
ConcernedHusseinCanuck @ 33:
Touche! I've been saying this from Day One of this hideous, unprovoked, unilateral assault on a defenseless, innocent, sovereign nation. It was never a "war."
God DAMN you, George Bush, you murderer.
Dr. Hussein Matt @ 3:
Yes the reflections are all wrong.
/cliche
B
Paul in LA @ 70:
Doesn't anybody study history anymore, Mylai was an Army company commanded operation, go ask Colin Powell, he'll tell ya,
sometimes the Hype and PR confuses the facts..
I read an article about him somewhere about a year or so ago. The cigarette is not photoshopped. When in Iraq he got a very heavy cigarette habit - something like 4-5 packs a day. His family was really worried about it when he came back.
Also, he had severe PTSD when he came home, and should not have married, but the local community raised the money so he and his fiance could have a nice wedding. They donated various products to help out, thinking they were helping him. He had really serious PTSD and shouldn't have married - he was too messed up. His girlfriend was very young and couldn't understand what was going on. She just knew she had waited for him and wanted to marry NOW. He had major problems and they ended up separating. I think he may have attacked her.
I hope he turns out ok, but from the story I read he was a poor kid who needed a lot of mental health care. I don't think he was educated enough, or had enough local resources, to get the help he needed.
I have several friends who were in vietnam. these are well-educated people who thought they were doing a good thing... all of them are pretty fucked-up now..it just doesn't go away ,you know? so my sympathy is with this poor guy.
That guy in the picture and to an extent the guy who took the photo are both publicity whores. From what I've read the guy is a complete loser, spent his G.I. dough on a motorcycle and hangs around with motorcycle gangs etc. Hey buddy, how about that education you were too poor to get originally and had to join the army for? Only when the money was running out did he contact the photographer to "get help for his PTSD" etc. meaning to cash in on the 'reality show' - type show of his failed life and milk his 15 mins of fame into maybe up to 19 min.
I'm not saying PTSD isn't a problem or that this guy isn't suffering from it, I'm just saying that if we are handing out free rides in media heaven to people then I wouldn't hand them to these 'Lyndie England' -types. You see the guy in the photo actually did order the dropping of bombs on a civilian region that possibly caused civilian casualties so don't ask me to join his fan club.
The Truth Hurts @ 2:
Oh, fuck you.
The Real Hussein @ 81:
And you.
I'm out of here.
Later, Carly.
the guy who took his picture is a photo journalist, which I guess is inherently a publicity whore occupation created by demand our society has for such TMZ packaged entertainment so folks can vicariously get excited about the situation.
cuz their lives would other wise be a 9-5 job behind the screen of the day, waiting for art to imitate life.
As for the marine, taking up a high risk activity such as motorcycling, jumping out of aircraft, high speed racing, high risk fighting, living in the wilderness off the land, or pushing yourself to get to the extremes just so you can feel alive like you did after surviving a 12 hour firefight, seems normal for someone experience PTSD.
Like the guys that ended up in the photo at Iwo, there's a story behind the scene,and like the guys at Iwo, theres an obligation by the society that sent them, to hear the subjects side of the story.
I wonder how much the cigarette manufacturers trade group paid to get this photo hyped up.
Marty @ 86:
Well it is generally known that the military took direct part in generating the hype around this photo, the photo could be seen as a direct result of the military PR-system of embedding reporters with soldiers. Also Miller was offered a ticket home by the military so that the hype wouldn't be marred by him getting wounded or killed.
Thank You for posting this Nicole, I have been researching him for a couple of monthes- I dedicating my END THE WAR post tomorrow over at Watergate Summer to him, the VETS and PTSD....I often post his photo when I tell People to REMEMBER WHY we have to Vote with a Conscience...James Blake Miller is one more young man whose life has been shredded by this Illegal War....120,000 VETS collecting disablility for PTSD...( and this does not count the ones that have not been diagnosed yet), the VA won't release the info on how many of these are IRAQI war related...( but these are of men& women that have served since 1991). This number also does not include the 25,000 diagnosed with Brain Injuries from Iraq.....
He had a life, a job, a young wife, he has lost so much...and we have given nothing back to him or the VETS and their families...and our Government has done Nothing.....
On another note I wanted to thank you and John and the C&L staff for posting Obama's speech below, the whole speech, and I am so sad that the thread got ugly...but thank you....
If you all could send people to my VET post tomorrow I would be grateful...thank you.
[E-mail John and the team,enigma........Site Monitor]
A Response to Some of the Comments above ( 86 and 87)....James Blake Miller is from the Eastern Hills of Kentucky, he has always been a smoker, out of stress, by the time he was in Fallujah (when the photo was take in Nov 2004) he was smoking over 4 packs a day. He had been working in a Body Shop in Kentucky , he was recruited thinking he would learn to be a mechanic and learn a trade, and also get health insurance and an education...but mostly that it would lead to a JOB....there are not alot of Jobs in Coal Mining Country....
An Embedded photojournalist took the photo, from the LA TIMES, Lius Sinco, he never knew that it would be famous, he took it because 18 hours into the rooftop battle it captured hours of what he had been seeing.....If you look at his eyes, you can see the fear, the fatigue, the anguish, and an almost Lost look....Some see a "tough Battle Weary Warrior"....me I see a young boy very far from Home.....
He was brought home, and did serve here at Home in the States....he even helped down at NOLA after Katrina...and it was there clearing bodies and debris in Fall of 2005 , that his life fell apart.....and the First Real Symtoms of PTSD gripped him...within monthes he had to be discharged.....
and from there began monthes of being Lost....
There is always a Story behind a Photo....But he is Real...He is a Man....Broken by a War...he could be your husband...your son...your friend....PTSD can break anyone....
sd @ 73:
The issue is the CRIMES, their similarity to atrocities done by the Nazis, not the actual scope of Nuremberg's convictions.
Can you illegally invade a country and then murder a million of its citizens? No, you can't -- that's what NAZIs did. Can you blow up civilian water supplies and disrupt electricity for an entire nation for five years without relief? No, you can't -- that's what NAZIs did.
Can you torture? And etc.
enigma4ever @ 89:
Compare to the 500,000 dead Iraqi children, and cry me a river.
duncanidho @ 78:
My Lai was one pogrom in TWENTY-FIVE such man-woman-child mass murders by the U.S. Army.
Those atrocities compare well to Marine atrocities, as you would know if you have studied their history. But rather than compare Fallujah to Panama City, I compared to My Lai -- because it's the EXACT same thing.
70% of Fallujah's buildings were damaged or destroyed. The U.S. admitted to using white phosphorus on the combatants (a major warcrime). The attack on Fallujah, over the four Blackwater employees who were HUNG OUT TO DRY by Blackwater and sent to Fallujah to shut their mouths permanently? No different than My Lai -- and attacking an entire city for the crimes of a handful of thugs who killed those soldiers -- NO DIFFERENT than the Nazi reprisals against the Resistance in several countries.
Lee @ 56:
Obviously you don't know me...I served honorably in the United States Navy from 1983-1989, as a data Systems Tech 2nd Class PO. 4 years of my enlistment was spent "haze grey and underway" onboard USS ARKANSAS (CGN-41). I know all about the "refuse an unlawful order", munchkin, as that was part of my indoctrination.
You, shit-for-brains, didn't comprehend my statement: I'll repeat it again, slowly, so you'll have time to pronounce all the hard words.
The blame for the invasion and occupation of Iraq lies not with the men and women in uniform, but with the civilian leadership; the military DOES NOT DECIDE WHO OR WHAT TO INVADE. Get it, wog?
To No91....
There are many people that have been harmed by this illegal war....18 year old boys who are now battered PTSD VETS, and the 6000 that have committed suicide upon return, and the 4000 dead, and their families who suffer here trying to care for them, and 25,000 head injuries, and 35,000 wounded/disabled....to the Iraqi People and families...and it is over a Million Dead Iraqis ( according to studies done by John Hopkins ) and yes, there are dead women, men and children....and also atleast 2.5 Million displaced Iraqi Refugees....We can cry a river for ALL of them, THEY ALL MATTER.....and Hopefully at some Point Prosecute the Bush Regime for their War Crimes....
Navy Hussein Vet @ 93:
The funny thing about that is that ILLEGAL orders are not required to be followed, and NO ONE in the military thought that the invasion was legal, certainly not after the WMD that was in evidence as absent. They didn't fucking care.
U.S. soldiers have been taught that they are required to observe the Geneva Conventions. I have friends who were trained that they could not "double-tap" wounded combatants. And yet the reports of such court martial offenses pour in, and supposedly the military is cool so long as it has an UNELECTED TRAITOR as pResident, giving them the illegal orders.
Guess again. In the real world, the U.S. military is RARELY honorable in the sense of upholding their duty to the Geneva Conventions, which are UCMJ LAW. Casual though the disgrace may be, it is for real. Slaughtered women, children, many of them tortured, litter the landscape of this illegal adventure, and the CENTCOM GANG is NOT HONORABLE, not at all. And that is not civilian, that's brass.
Is the line soldier equipped to refuse deployment like Lt. Watada? No, the average soldier is in no way equipped to protect their honor. And just because someone drove a forklift and did no fighting, the onus of illegal deployment is still overhanging those otherwise honorable efforts.
enigma4ever @ 94:
Where was that recognition back when you were lauding this Man?
I don't doubt he is a victim, but he is not some kind of noble soul for what he did. As he will readily admit.
Politicians are required to praise the troops' sacrifice. I'm not a politician. Those that went along with the genocide, turned racist, lost their foothold on the UCMJ, committed warcrimes, and/or failed to out the crimes they witnessed once they were out, can go fuck themselves.
The many soldiers who need our help in the aftermath should get it, as much as they need. And also, in the same vein, Iraq deserves reparations, and the primary reparation that can be given to Iraq is to HANG the members of the Shitehouse Iraq Group, after trials for their crimes.
I appreciated the way the piece was edited, but even as I was watching it I wished all the raw material was available so that everybody here could edit it the way that made them feel best. Remove the cigarette, make the guy into a dweeb or a murderer, a publicity whore, a Bush-loving hypocrite, a hero. Whatever would make each person have that righteous wargasm they seem to need. Very clearly this is a guy who joined the military for his own reasons, was fortunate to survive a "war" that was ill-conceived, unnecessary and criminal, and who's picture went on to be used for patriotic propaganda that had nothing to do with reality. That he took time out from his obvious personal nightmares to be interviewed seems to some of the posters here to be of little consequence as they take the opportunity to bloviate, harangue, and masturbate.
To No.96:
You seem to be trying to argue, yet there is nothing to argue, we are on the same side here......we all share this agony....I never lauded ANYONE, and certainly not the young man in the photo, what I pointed out is that there is more to the Photo, then what people thought, and it was shamelessly exploitive of a young marine that was shellshocked and ill prepared to be there...( please read what I wrote) ...and I certainly did not laud the War or anyone that has been harmed by it.....He was an 18 year old kid that was smoothtalked by a slick Marine Recruiter...and he is now suffering PTSD, and his life is beyond damaged....In No94 I pointed out that MANY have been harmed by this Illegal War.... There need to War Crime Trials for Bushco....
#93
US military is a kind of mercenary military instead of a conscripted military from all social classes. The troops therefore aren't innocent.
NO99...
I am going to step in here....I come from a family that has had Military that have served- and also have many friends that are serving /and have served in Iraq...I don't know where you get your notion that we have a Mercenary Military- you are wrong. Our troops Volunteer- and most come from lower economic status- and it is true many are lured with Money and Bonuses or FREE College, but they work hard....thinking that they will improve their lives and serve with Honor...the Civilian Leadership (aka Bush Regime Liars and Idiots) have taken us into a Quagmire ( Iraq). The troops are merely pawns in an Illegal War...Mess.Many sadly volunteered after 911, and thought they were doing the right thing....There have been some Bad Apples and ones that did the wrong thing and there are Contracted Employees that work for Halliburton etc...that have also behaved badly on "Security" details...
It is not right to paint ALL with the Same Brush....not all VETS have lacked honor.
Paul in LA @ 92:
The Marlboro Man picture was controversial in Texas.
They thought he was advocating the dangerous habit of smoking.
thetruthhurts @2:57
Kinda hard to vote for Bush twice since he's only 22?
Hussien Matt @ 3:03
You pulled your face from Hannity's lap for that comment?
Medlakeguy@ 3:06
It would for someone like you, who's never left the safety and comfort of your mothers bosom or under her skirt!
Here's a little fact about the Battle for Fullajuh most of you Bush Sycophants don't know;
The battle was supposed to start days before it did, everything was in place to start troops, equipment, supplies everything was ready to go except the '04 Elections got in the way! Waiting outside the city for days, sure gave the enemy inside a heads up onwhat was coming their way!
Bush in PLAYING HIS Role as CIC , held of the start until after the November '04 elections were in the bag, he didn't want the high number of causalties reports ( that were predicted) that were expected to fill the headlines, back in the States!
So as we see Bush has no qualms about using the lives of the troops for his own political gain!
Joe Socks @ 66:
I find the most "honest" journalism of America comes from the foreign press. I read anything written by corporate media with skepticism. Of course, anything coming out of the Bush administration is propaganda.
Dr. Hussein Matt @ 3:
i met the LA Times reporter and photographer, and it was photoshopped at all .... shame on you for saying that...
I've read the article the LA Times guy wrote; like 20,000 words published in the Times over three days. Amazing the guy isn't smoking a whole pack at the same time after what he went through. The photo is legit, and after you get the back story, quite sad.
Sure. Sure, the photo itself is propaganda, but the scariest kind. It has a foundation in the originally unreported true horror this kid went through, and still goes through.
As it turns out, there's a downside to being in firefights for a month straight.
The administration and it's supporters get to go, 'look, here's a HERO! A brave American boy that knows no fear and does not tire in his relentless spreading of Democracy!'.
Turns out, the guy's life is a total wreck, he is constantly acting out of fear, and when he's not doing that he's bombed drunk because of the PTSD.
The reason the photo is interesting is because of that juxtaposition.
I had the honor of having 4 Army men spend Thanksgiving with my family through a program sponsored by the USO. I have 3 teenagers all leaving H.S. in the next 2 years and I thought it was an added bonus they would get to meet military men and see the Army as more than just the advertising campaign. I was very happy I did and surprised too. It was very obvious 2 of the men were mentally slow and were not people I would want walking around my neighborhood with an M-16 being responsible for my protection. At first, being a veteran of the first Gulf War, I was embarrassed to be thinking this, but as soon as the men were dropped off similar words rang from everyone in my family.
broadsword @ 107:
Finally someone gets it.
Jesus Christ... Just wondering thru the threads this a.m. and revisited this one... Some people apparently just want to be obtuse..no fuck that.. Some people are just freakin thick skulled blockheads with no freaking common sense or perspective... Many many posters here with some sense of balance and clarity has repeated in many ways who the real villains are... And it AIN'T This kid with the goddamned cigerette hanging out of his mouth..
Navy Hussein Vet@94? I'm with you dude, give em hell sailor. Some of these posters just don't WANT to GET that It's the civilians that call the shots in this nation... We're all just the cannon fodder for their grand schemes when we're wearin that uniform.. And but for the grace of god, some luck and specific instances of geopolitical moves by people who actually didn't want to start a bloodbath, you and I both could have ended up in any number of hot situations back in the 80s too. Anything from KAL 007 to the freakin airbus shootdown out of Iran later on, which I still suspect, based on my own knowledge of rader could have easily been a situation of parking a fighter behind the civilian airliner coming out of Tehran which would have easily had an effect on IFF signals being tracked... But, and this is significant... Nothing like that happened dispite those instances and a number of others unmentioned when we served.. And the world is still around today for bloggers to give servicemembers hell over the Bush administrations sins.
We were damned lucky since we were still neck deep into the cold war playing games with the soviet navy taking each others pictures in gotcha war games.. Luckier under Reagan who is nevertheless a sonofabitch for far too many reasons to go into here, then these people, our children, have been under George W. Bush and his nightmare crew of chickenshit armchair heros. Sending people into something they created but never did do themselves when they were of an age to actually put it on the line over their fathers hubris and the cockamamie paranoia about dominoes.
Tim in Japan? Your story of what led you in, is in many ways the same story that led me in way back in 81. And we all know now, that dispite what you are promised, dispite any stories about getting to the 'real' navy at your next duty station, dispite any assurance you might receive from anyone talkin the talk to ya, the service will plug you into exactly where they think they need you at any given time. And you will do as you're told or you will wind up in deep shit. That's how I ended up joining the navy thinking I might advance my desire to become a commercial artist, by becoming an Illustrator Draftsman in the navy for some time then getting out.. But, ended up sitting behind a scope on a birdfarm identifying potential good guys and bad guys as a radarman... among other duties as assgned.. as it were. They didn't call us radarmen by then, but that is what we were....
We are the lucky ones. Did our bit without getting caught up in anyones hot war. Damned lucky, we 80's vets... unlike this current generation.
I would like to think we as a society would have learned from the Nam vet experience that we just can't treat people coming back from a hell like that in this kind of hateful way. Would've thought that among other things, Nam would have tought this society just who the hell really pulls the strings and starts the wars that kill and maim so indiscreminately. But apparently those lessons are still lost on some. That is just as sad as anything else coming out of this hellish thing we call the Iraq war or occupation, take your pick or as the kid says, call it what you will...............JD
The whole Iraq war has been a war of attrition - type operation like the war in Vietnam. Do people really think that they had some other type of goal than exactly what has happened? Bush says "Sniff, we didn't know it was gonna go like this, but it's worth it so lets continue" and USA-folks believe him and the war and the killing continues for yet another year.
jack damage @ 110:
Perspective: ONE MILLION CIVILIANS DEAD, none of whom attacked the United States (prior to invasion).
"Article II: In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group."
The definition of genocide includes the destruction of cultural property. The failure to guard Iraq's cultural wealth was entirely blatant in this GENOCIDE.
I like how the media clicks a picture of some grunt somewhere in some shithole thirdworld country and adds all this drama to it. This Miller guy was probably just pulled off the line, was having a smoke waiting for the private they sent to refill canteens and thinking about which MRE he was gonna eat. Hell I got dozens of similar pictures of guys in my squad out in the woods at JRTC (ft Polk)
jack damage @ 110:
CENTCOM is not run by civilians.
And Bush is NOT a representative of civilians or civilian gov't (he's a dictator). He works for a conspiracy within BOTH the military and the public sector.
The standard remains. The military is under military justice, and THAT'S where these warcrimes and racism and casual murder and pogroms pinch our volunteer military in the toe -- or would, if the UNIFORMS at CENTCOM and the Pentagon actually took the UCMJ seriously.
I don't suppose the chickenhawks at FoxNews would care to interview this guy. I hope James can find some peace in all of this.
Paul in L.A. @ 112 & 114;
I ain't arguing with any of that...Nor with the idea that some high ranking military officers have made some piss poor decisions that have cost peoples lives needlessly, pointlessly and for every wrong reason you can think up, no argument from me Paul. So then, seems like the path is clear... One of us needs to get a rope one of us needs to do the driving and we both along with about a million or so like minded people need to go to D.C. and drag the real purps out of the wh and serve up some justice.. Which job do you want homie, the drivin job or the hangin job? And without quibbling over who runs centcom, my question would be who tells the people who runs centcom what the hell to do?
JD
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