Abu Ghraib torturer blames media for scandal
By Steve Benen Wednesday Mar 19, 2008 12:40pm
Everyone, pretty nearly everywhere, has seen the images of abuse at Abu Ghraib. The name of the prison alone has become synonymous with torture and humiliation, and the acts committed by Americans weakened our collective name on the global stage like almost nothing else in recent years.
Oddly enough, reflecting on the events, one of the more notorious players in this disgusting scandal still seems anxious to shift the blame. (via Oliver Willis)
Lynndie England, the public face of the Abu Ghraib prison scandal, told a German news magazine that she was sorry for appearing in photographs of detainees in the notorious Iraqi prison, and believes the scenes of torture and humiliation served as a powerful rallying point for anti-American insurgents.
In an interview with the weekly magazine Stern conducted in English and posted on its website Tuesday, England was both remorseful and unrepentant — and conceded that the published photos surely incensed insurgents in Iraq.
“I guess after the picture came out the insurgency picked up and Iraqis attacked the Americans and the British and they attacked in return and they were just killing each other. I felt bad about it … no, I felt pissed off. If the media hadn’t exposed the pictures to that extent, then thousands of lives would have been saved,” she was quoted as saying.
I see. England played a large role in torturing and humiliating Iraqi detainees, many of whom had done nothing wrong, but “thousands of lives would have been saved” if only her crimes had been covered up more effectively. As far as she's concerned, the problem wasn’t her shameful and illegal conduct — she was, as you may recall, seen holding a naked prisoner on a leash — the problem was scrutiny of her shameful and illegal conduct.
The mind reels.
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Can you get TeeVee in a trailer park?
Why isn't she in prison?
Only one verifiable terrorist in that photo.
If you waterboard someone in the woods and nobody hears, is it really torture?
This was a very young girl that "paid" the price for all the folks up the ladder from her. The big scapegoat. This trial should have gone all the way up the ladder to Bush, Rumsfeld and Cheney. They are smiling with little halos on their heads!
I remember reading that she was in a special ed class in high school, and if so she might not have the capacity to understand or take responsibility for her actions. I'm sure she watches a lot of Fox as well.
As disgusting as she and her actions are, why is she, the lowest enlisted person taking the hit for Abu Ghraib?
Did she give birth to a child while serving time for her crimes? Did she even serve time? Just wondering.
Hasn't Lynndie England's IQ been proven to be so low that she's just a bit above being legally retarded?
Yes, all torture should be kept in house just like in nazi germany.
arjay8 @ 2:
A men's prison.
Its important to note that this person has been promoted, and to date not one person has been convicted of any wrong doing in the Abu Ghraib scandal. Her sentiments mirror those of her higher ups and make anyone with a conscience wretch.
Miss Lane @ 6:
Your memory of her being in a special ed class in high school sounds alot like my memory of her having a shockingly low IQ.
Just a grammatical clarification: "England was both remorseful and unrepentant"
Is it supposed to be "remorseless" or "repentant"?
I bet if she gets into a car accident and its her fault, she'll blame you for her incompetents.
Yeah, and if the Media published pictures of the caskets, they'd be responsible for the deaths.
I'm certain she blamed her teachers when she failed a test.
Mike @ 13:
Nice catch. Yes, you are correct.
Honestly officer, it was the other driver's fault!
He could see I was driving erratically after all the drinks I had.
This is crap, Steve. Why are you throwing this mentally disabled woman on the fire?
"A psychologist from her home area testified that England had been a blue baby, born also with a malformation of the tongue that gave her a speech impediment.
Apparently, she often chose not to talk at all. She had a learning disability as well."
Don't we all get it yet? Its the Cheney, Stupid. Its the Rumsfeld.
Grand Theft Auto made her do it.
And she was such a sympathetic figure.
Just goes to show ya.
How about you just don't do it? What a selfish person.
An Average Joe @ 16:
No. She was both remorseful ("I felt bad about it.") and unrepentant ("I'm saying that what we did happens in war. It just isn't documented.")
One can be both remorseful and unrepentant. She clearly is remorseful about the results of the photos, but unrepentant, in that she won't apologize for them.
I had wanted to post some clever observation, but whenever I start contemplating the whole Lynndie mess, all I can come up with is... Why, that stupid &^@*$#%*!!!!!!!!!
Johnny2Bad @ 18:
Buttercup has been thrown under the bus so many times that she thinks tires are blankets.
So if YOU hadn't done it to begin with, "then thousands of lives would have been saved." Heckuva job.
I feel bad for her girlfriend. Her face is a hot mess.
I don't see this as at all inconsistent with the US today. Torturing people isn't un-American - admitting to and talking about torturing people is un-American.
It's un-American to report on things which are un-American.
Seems to me she is just mad because she got caught and others didn't. Rather than dwelling on her, the media should be dwelling on who else is doing/has done it and airing that dirty laundry publicly rather than pretending to be patriotic little government bootlickers. Ha! Like that would ever happen.
My name is Tanya.
If PFC England truly believes the 'we're doing this to save lives' line, she's the absolute perfect scapegoat.
Beyond that, where's the proof that these poor schlubs were in possession of critical (and I don't mean important, but ticking-time-bomb critical ... the same criteria that the torture-approving crowd says is the reason we need this capability) information of any sort? Certainly, there weren't any hidden stockpiles of WMDs. Saddam didn't have a secret bunker. There weren't legions of al-Qaeda fighters waiting to swarm out of the darkness.
At the risk of invoking Godwin's Law, this is like attesting that Nazi Concentration Camps were actually for the safety of German citizens, and it's only the sensationalist media reports over a few pictures and graves that caused all the fuss.
she blames the media, oh give me a break..............
this trailor-trash bitch drinks her own used douchewater.
.
Yep,
The media said:
"POSE LYNNDIE ~ POSE!"
.
CD @ 12:
Then why was she in the service to begin with? I thought there were standards to pass to qualify to serve.
You know, I always felt that the underlings were severly punished while the top brass got off scott free. But this is a disgrace. No, she, in fact is the disgrace
Jumpinin @ 28:
I used to work as a checker in a grocery store. A customer asked me if we'd be open Thanksgiving day. I replied to the affirmative. She exclaimed, "That's un-American!"
I replied (one of those few moments in one's life where you don't come up with a good answer hours later and far too late),"No, I think it's very American to be open on a major holiday just to make a few more bucks. Now if you mean it's unpatriotic, I suppose can agree with you on that score."
It's often a matter of semantics and/or perspective, ain't it? (incidentally, I wouldn't be surprised if she was in the store on Turkey Day picking up that forgotten can of cranberry sauce. Haha)
Whatever happened to Hillfillies like this?
http://www.madprofessor.net/images/frazettaabner.jpg
http://www.sudftw.com/jackjunc.jpg
http://www.morethings.com/fan/hee_haw/12-13-75hee_haw-jailbait1.jpg
http://www.scottstander.com/Store/DonnaDouglas/Douglas10.jpg
http://toddzilla.files.wordpress.com/2007/02/daisy_duke.jpg
She doesn't count
http://home.earthlink.net/~nellojean/minniepearl/minniepearl.jpg
But then none of them do I reckon.
but she vas only following zee orders!
Surely zee Germans untershtand Zat,
Zee German audience ist Sympathetic Ja?!
No england, your leadership was wrong, they weren't listening, and for once the media had to challenge them
(But due to their lack of follow thru, its apparent they were only interested in selling papers, not dealing with the truth, to bad about that huh)
goat hussein sage @ 1:
Of course. Them communities of WT loves their teevees.
Jumpinin @ 28:
Yeah, and the torture brigades are being led by the same people who are telling us we're a Christian nation and need more God in our diet.
interesting piece in the new yorker this week about another female torturer
She didn't get promoted. If my memory serves, she went to prison (baby born in prison) and was then kicked out of the Army. A very very little fish while the big fish will soon be in Paraguay and Dubai enjoying the good life.
[Deleted. OT and/or spam-Sitemonitor]
[Off Topic.....#1.......Site Monitor]
The incapacity to accept real responsibility or blame is typical of many mentally retarded persons, judging from my experience of working in a sheltered workshop and having an MR sibling.
Hmm, makes me think of George Bush....
England has passed the threshold to become a Republican in good standing.
Another Republican election official in the making.
BobD @ 35:
B/c they need warm bodies. Standards, but they are low. Who better to take the rap than someone like this?
England is only repeating what the administration has been saying for years.
The problem is that the war is being covered, not the war itself.
But really.
She is a patsy.
She was doing what she was told to do.
She was trained to do it.
You have to admit, she does make the perfect scapegoat. Someone with a normal IQ would be pissed at their superiors, or even the person who actually turned the photos over to the press. The press had no choice but to make this public, since the entire world was aware of what was going on, except for the American people. Since the press were basically forced to make this public, I’m sure someone threw a BBQ for them so they wouldn’t feel so bad.
Johnny2Bad @ 18:
How then she was able to enroll in the military? I thought the military has set a high standards for recruitment. Is can she distingish between right and wrong?
I saw her interviewed on tv way back around the time she had her baby. You could tell in a minute that she wasn't bright at all. Nothing coming out of her mouth would surprise me.
Not just pretty, but smart too.
DUNCAN @ 52:
Without a draft for all of Busholini's follies, the military has had to lower their recruiting standards. If I'm not mistaken, convicted felons can now enlist (after serving their time).
STOP LOSS.
This is a typical defense by scoundrels. To Rush Limbaugh, Jonah Goldberg and Brit Hume, racism isn't a problem, it's those damn liberals calling people on their racism. To Lynndie England, the problem isn't their horrible conduct, it's that someone reported it and called them on it. Nevermind that even if the American press didn't cover this, the Arab world would know. The bigger issue, though, is while England and the others should be held accountable on some level, they were also instigating a policy formulated by Rumsfeld, Cheney, Addington, Yoo and others, and approved by Bush. She's hardly a nice person, but there are bigger scoundrels higher up the chain.
She must be another of those US military "heroes" no one is allowed to question. Don't forget, support the troops!
JudyLou @ 48:
Take another look at the above photo and ask yourself if you believe that person could pass basic training. I'd be surprised if she weighted much over 100#, wet.
Hope she isn't representative of US troop intelligence! Holy crap, can you imagine THAT in a 2 billion dollar fighter jet? Or in control of MOABs?
ConcernedHusseinCanuck @ 59:
"It's not that I crashed the plane, it's that some fool filmed it"
Please keep in mind that England isn't educated or sharp to begin with. She was following orders from above.
If everyone puts their backs into it, we may be able to roll this shit back uphill to the Veep's office.
JudyLou @ 48:
+There are always people that make the grade but only by one point.
Grrrrrreat choice for McCain's VP no? White, woman, mother, veteran, famous?
And she came from the volunteer pool before the military lowered its standards.
DUNCAN @ 52:
You enroll in college
You enlist in the military.
Charlieboy @ 63:
How 'bout Jessica Lynch?
The disclosure of atrocities there may have been a shocking revelation for most Americans, but the Iraqis already knew what was going on in Abu Ghraib.
If you haven't seen it yet, you need to see "Taxi to the Dark Side". The soldiers like Lyndie were following orders to rough up the prisoners. They didn't invent blind-folding, stress-positions, etc. They were told to do these things. I'm not excusing her for doing it, a soldier has an obligation not to follow illegal orders. But the people who ordered it, Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld etc are never going to be prosecuted for it. The only people who have been prosecuted were enlisted personel, no officers have been charged. As to the poster that said no one has gone to jail for it, you are wrong. Charles Granier got ten years in prison. Lyndie was sentenced to 3 years but released after serving half. So yes soldiers did go to jail for this. Just not the people who ordered it.
rend @ 42:
Her?
http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/415WAA3WNZL._SS500_.jpg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WSHGT9bATdc
Hmmmm.
Lyndie's remarks strike me as positively presidential.
She's certainly photogenic enough.
The banality of Evil which allowed the Germans to kill millions and the likes of Lynndie to torture, "I was just doing my job." Blame someone else in this case the media. Of course the reason our soldiers and inquisitors are able to do what they do can be traced right back to the Oval Office.
Arthurstone @ 70:
Well, she's apparently intellectually limited, like Reagan, Bush Jr and McCain, so she has that qualification as a GOP candidate going for her as well.
:P
On a related note, last Sunday was the 40th anniversary of My Lai. Go here
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/archivehour/
and listen to the March 15 program--an hour of you time well spent.
Now that's a nice, comforting and self-justifying rationalization. She's got a bright future ahead of her in the GOP.
Like most of her kind, she is troll incarnate.
It's a rare thing when I am rendered speechless.
I'll bet you dollar this monster votes Republican. I'll give you 100 to 1 odds.
Oh, wait. She's a felon and can't vote anymore.
Thank God for small favors.
All actions are okay without scrutiny. They can be good or bad; as long as they aren't seen, aren't investigated and responsibility is never accounted, then what is the problem?
This is the philosophy of anarchy, of reckless disregard of society and human discourse.
She is to be rightfully condemned for her ignorance and her inhumanity, as well as those who put her there, and permitted her actions.
The fine flower of American youth in full bloom stupidity.
Dr. Acula @ 66:
At least Jessica Lynch is telling the truth about the stories that were fabricated concering her capture.
nohobear @ 78:
And you know what they use for fertilizer.
Ms England? the term is called denial, check it out.. It's not a river in Egypt... It's a condition, in your case self inflicted.. You are suffering from it. The sooner you face up to what happened, what your part in it really was, what you really need to do to own up to it, the sooner you will actually be able to put it behind you and move on in your life...Whatever kind of life you have.....(hint: It ain't bitching, eqivocating, and trying to shift blame in some German magazine lady).............JD
Wow, England would make a perfect Republican. The people who bring illegal behavior to light should be villified, not the perpetrator of that illegal behavior. Exposing wrongdoings is unpatriotic. Do what you are told, keep your mouth shut, and wave your little American flag.
That's the Republican way..........................
Shadowgm Hussein @ 41:
Well, I always said religion is torture.
She's just repeating attitudes maintained by that 50% of Americans who call themselves "conservative."
Johnny2Bad @ 18:
I agree, but check this:
It's a German magazine. She is still representing us to the rest of the world.
If we want to avoid blowback in the future, we have to lance all the boils of the Bush presidency. We need a responsible investigation of Abu Ghraib, Guantanamo, Haditha, etc.
jack damage @ 81:
She's mentally challeneged. Not an insult, it's a fact. In her mind, she prolly doesn't understand that what she did was wrong. She really thinks she was doing the righteous thing, and that the media is the bad guy in this scenario.
Sort of like Anakin Skywalker. Powerful as he was, and I don't think anyone will disagree with me here, Anakin was fucking stupid. Dumb as a rock. Dim as a black hole. In his mind, he thinks he's doing what is best for the galaxy. Attack of the Clones, in his talks with Padme, he truly believes in dictatorship (with the right dictator, himself of course). He wasn't evil, he thought his way was the right way. England is the same way. She was following orders, she was being a good soldier, she was doing the right thing. And she'll believe that till the day she dies.
Left&Left @ 10:
Yes! Let's battle ignorance by acting like ignorant and hateful assholes.
IMHO Lynndie England is both a perpatrator and a victim--of policy, her own ignorance and the exigencies of circumstance.
Volunteers submit to the authority of military institution which is maintained and/or directed by the extant Admnisistration. Did England demonstrate immoral and anti-social tendencies, or susceptibilty to the same prior to her enlistment? Has anyone asked?
And isn't it a fact that many who join the military do so precisly because they wish for or need the promise of community, duty and discipline that the military supposedly offers? Are we to demand that she is soleley responbile for her actions when her actions are dictated by the demands of the military and the politicians that the military serves?
Subsequently removed from the immediate pressures of the Iraq occupation and her designated role in it, is it any surprise she's now agressively defensive about how she's been characterized?
The pictures confirmed what many Iraqi's already knew, for months.
Steve Benen--where's your condemnation of the recent Winter Soldiers who HAVEN't been charged, criticized in the press and sent to jail for THEIR excution of military policy? Why are THEY being held in sympathetic regard when Lynndie England is roundly condemned. THEY WEREN'T CAUGHT!. Did Lynndie England actually MURDER anyone? NO SHE DID NOT! Did some of these Winter Soldiers murder innocent civilians? YES SOME OF THEM DID BY THEIR OWN ADMISSIONS. Did they beat and abuse civilians? YES THEY DID, BY THE PERMISSION OF THEIR SUPERIORS! She wasn't a professional in the Regualr army, she was in the RESERVE, straight ouit of HIGH SCHOOL with at best 18 mohth of RESERVE experince when she was deployed in Iraq.
Given all that, Steve Benen, do you seriously think England's actions should be judged by the same standards as regular soldiers, NCOs and officers? Why would you expect her to somehow acquire a grand impersonal perspective of her actions and situation?
I'm not thrilled with individuals chalking up her actions, past and present, to a learning disability. ADHD is considered a learning disability, and even it comes in forms both severe and mild. 'Learning disability' doesn't equate with 'mental retardation' (a bit of an antiquated term, I know), regardless of how reductionist you aim to be.
I chalk her actions up to a little trick known as 'rationalization.' We all do it, and on a daily basis in fact. If we knew we were doing it, we'd probably stop, though even then it would be difficult to toss out the comforting notion instead of the soul-crushing truth of it all. Anyhow, I wouldn't in a million years excuse her past behaviour, nor defend it. And I don't mean to come to her recuse here either. Nonetheless, she is obviously living a lie because somewhere, deep in her brain, it/she knows that if she accepted her own, personal responsibility in the matter it would all be over. She would fall apart. The brain will do silly things to protect itself, because it needs to push on. While I don't think the woman deserves any sympathy whatsoever, we can at least pity her. Her personality is now a shell that poorly hides the mess of a person she is inside - a mess that can't be fixed.
Miss Lane @ 6:
We keep talking about this stuff like it should either be her or Cheney and Rumsfeld (where'd Bush go?) taking the responsibility. Looking over and over for one person whose ass we can kick to end the whole stupid thing. But that's never going to work, because it's a systemic problem. The Army both recruits "at-risk" youth deliberately and also attracts them in general, youth who have hefty abuse histories and little or no emotional support, who often deal with their traumas by bottling up their rage and lashing out.
And then it exacerbates that tremendously, on purpose, with basic training - trying to "break them down" so they can "build them up to be (unquestioning) soldiers." Basic training and combat deaden people emotionally, make it extremely difficult for them to connect to the effects of their actions. To have the capacity to understand what they are doing. And intense backed-up rage makes it very hard for people to take responsibility for their actions.
It's immaterial whether England, or any of the other individuals involved in this action, or Cheney, or Rumsfeld, or anyone between England and Bush in the chain of power, are super-smart or are all the way at the other end of the spectrum. Removing any one of them wouldn't make the tiniest bit of difference. The torture we saw at Abu Ghraib is just one among many similar, less famous reports of horrific torture perpetrated by the military. This is how they roll, at all levels of power. It's what the cycle of abuse looks like on a global scale.
stonicus@86;
OK, mentally ill, I can accept that.. Makes as much sense as anything to me on this Lynndie England thread... Of course the Anakin Skywalker analogy could probably be applied to George W. Bush too... Maybe I should reevaluate my negative opinion of him as well.. Not the Hague, not Leavenworth, not the gallows...
Numbnuts should be in a mental ward....yes??? Certainly not running the country for another 10 months or so...Certainly that much is true.. As for Ms. England? Maybe her family or someone close to her should intervene and get her some medical help. Doesn't seem like she is helping herself too much.... JD
this girl was not in it alone !infact thier were worse things done in abu !thier were children raped , and sodomised, by our soldiers thier were children raped and soomised in front of thier parents to get information from them, thier are photos of this sickness in the hands of our government and they promossed to release these photos to the public !!!!!!!! have you seen them????? no you havent , this girl was a dupe , what she did was bad but whats worse rape and sodomy of kids or what she did? why arent they all in prison? the whole rotton bunch!
I was thinking the same thing Meat - special ed covers a vast range of things from dyslexia to ADHD and so on. It doesn't have anything to do with decision-making skills; I have friends who are teachers, and I have been involved in the special ed system, and I know that there are just as many kids with all these problems (and with decision-making and acting-out problems) outside of special ed as in it. The kids in special ed just happen to be the ones who have someone advocating for them.
Plus the fact that in different circumstances you're actually allowed, encouraged, and SUPPOSED to KILL these people, it can be easy to see why they might not see torture and/or humiliation as such a bad thing.
I'm not justifying her actions, I'm just trying to understand them.
oh and we dont torture prisoners , condi rice!!!!!!!!!!!!
I see plenty of commenters have asked why she was in the military in the first place. Try WIkepedia "Lynndie England". You'll see she went from High School into the Reserves ( NOT the regular Army) in 2001. Reserves train/service one weekend a month with one fortnight service.training period a year. In 2003 she was deployed to Iraq.
Does anyone suppose that Lynndie England's maximum possible service/training of 72 days (2-1'2 years of one weekend a month) and four weeks (two fortnights) in West Virginia prepared her in ANY WAY for personally "managing" dozens out thousands of utter foreigners in the midst of a war and occupation in a professional fashion?
I ask Steve Benen to contemplate this question too.
heh...Lynndie England... another shining example of "personal responsibility" in her mind, the blame does not lie with her for what she did but with the media for bringing it out into the light of day. must be a Repub.
I`m sure this girl knows the difference between right and wrong even though it`s not obvious.She is just imitating Rumsfeld who was so pissed about it he ordered cameras banned from then on.What happened to him? He`s living the good life out in Taos trying to intimidate 10 speed bikers with his pick up truck.
HOW MANY OF US WATCHED "24" and thought Jack Bauer was cool.I did for a season,but never again.It clearly condones torture.I don`t ,so I`ll not patronize a show like this.It`s bullshit anyway.
The Englands' Case is the one instance where I would support State-Mandated sterilization as a condition of their release on probation.
Gawd, could you imagine the spawn they would produce? The horror!
Dr. Acula @ 66:
A) still too young
B) though the media would give him a total pass on it, he'd probably try (not necessarily succeed, but he'd try) fucking her as if she was his favorite lobbyist
it has to be a very difficult thing to live with the fact that your ignorance has caused the level of war and the death toll to rise. it would appear that living with this knowledge is too much for England to bear so she fools herself into thinking it is all someone elses fault. but then again...
it has to be a very difficult thing to live with the fact that your ignorance has caused the level of war and the death toll to rise. it would appear that living with this knowledge is too much for Bush & Cheyney to bear so they fool themselves into thinking it is all someone else's fault.
Re: Meat in 89.
I believe that is called, "cognitive dissonance".
When what you say and what you know do not agree.
The Crapture @ 100:
+Jessica Lynch is smart enough to state frankly that she didn't enjoy being made into a pro-war icon.
DHSmd @ 99:
Even if this comment is a snark,it`s not funny.Are we going to sink that low-from a torturer nation to a Mengele nation.I hope not.
Ok. Let's put ourselves in Lyndie Land for a minute. Let's set aside the fact that people were tortured, humiliated, mistreated and murdered. Let's just forget all of that and focus on England's charge that the MEDIA was to blame for releasing the pictures.
Then I would ask these questions:
1. WHO took the pictures in the first place?
2. WHO posed for the pictures?
3. WHO brought a camera into a highly secured military prison?
4. For WHAT PURPOSE were these pictures taken? Was it worth the damage to the US?
5. WHAT military rules and US laws were broken by England? What types of damage were these laws meant to avoid?
6. WHO allowed these pictures to be leaked to the public?
The fact is, Lyndie England was responsible for much of the damage done to America. The fact that she engaged in this misconduct (even if she was ordered to by her superiors) is bad enough. But it was just stupid to document the acts. It was even worse to allow the pictures to get out. Prisons are highly secured places. Military prisons are even more so. Military Prisoner of War prisons should be of the utmost security. AND if "secret" "enhanced" "agressive" military interrogation techniques are being used, of which the government does not wish to inform the general public, there should have been absolute restrictive security measures in place. Instead, these yahoos were allowed to bring cameras in, take very damaging pictures, and send them to anyone they wanted to.
Pitiful.
CD @ 8:
I have also heard she has fetal alcohol syndrome. She is very easily led and wants very much to be liked. But not sure this is a valid excuse for inhuman behavior.
If Lynndie England will maintain probably til the day she dies that she didnt' do anything wrong.. That she thinks she was just being a good soldier following orders... Then I will absolutely believe till the day I die that the leaders and stratagists of this administration are the real purps in all this who needs to pay the freight on it.. ALL OF IT, all the crimes and mendacity and duplicity purpitrated on this nation, on Iraq, on the middle east in general and world at large... They are guilty of causing and responsible for all the dead, maimed and humiliated civilians in Iraq, for all the dead and maimed U.S. men and women of at least three generations, for the very existance of a Lyndie England trying to cope with what happened by venting in a German magazine.. For the international disdain towards our nation and society that exists in the world today. For the fact that Dick Cheney can more or less say 'so what' to the American public, thumb his nose and flip us all the bird and not be in jail for it. Yea, I can blame all those sons of bitches for the shithole we're all in now, including Lyndie England....But what I can't do is make them pay for it...And that is a horrible thing to realize and know....JD
pathetic
This sick bitch gives the military a real black eye. Dumb enough to DO the acts, take the pictures...and now dumber yet to not understand who is to blame.
Idiot.
I wonder if she blames the mirror for making her look unattractive.
sully18 @ 98:
I hear that alot, '24' condones torture. I never took it that way. Yeah, sometimes the torture worked. Sometimes it didn't. Sometimes they got false info. Remember when Jack tortured his brother Graham? Jack was convinced Graham didn't know anything, when in fact he did. If anything, I took away from the show the inconsistency and fallability of torture.
just dont let homeland security getcha !cause what they,ll do to yah makes lyndies tortues look easy!
willie @ 101:
Just don't forget, she wasn't the only one who did this. She was just the only one who got caught on camera. Sure, she could have told her superiors to fuck off and then go sit in the brig. Next guy in line would have done it. The true blame falls on the commanding officers.
rend @ 42:
You can read it online at: http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2008/03/24/080324fa_fact_gourevitch/?...
Reading it was interesting, informative, and terrifying...the unit that was involved in all of this was trained for combat, not detention--there are other units for that. They were never given standard operating procedures, they were just told to do whatever the military intelligence officers told them to do. It seems like all of them felt uneasy with what they were doing but assumed that it was all ok since they were following orders in a situation they were never trained for. They were actually praised by their superior officers as well as military intelligence officials for what they did.
I'm not condoning what happened in ANY way and I don't think that the soldiers should get away scot-free, but I don't blame them entirely for what happened. Their superior officers, military intelligence, and ultimately the major players in the administration are to blame for what happened. I think we all know that.
BobD @ 35:
Not in George Bush's Amerikkka. You can be anything and
get into the service now...a gang banger, rapist, drug dealer,
ect., ect. Hell, Bush was in the military but needed daddy's
help and influence just to get in and then went AWOL, so one
can see why his expectations for others are so low.
Lynndie England is an example of the real purpose behind institutionalized torture. It is not a reliable means of extracting information from uncooperative sources and it galvanizes rather than terrorizes its targets. Even England acknowledges that Abu Ghraib has only served to antagonize the Iraqi insurgency.
What torture does accomplish, however, is the brutalization and dehumanization of those who commit it and rationalize it. In order to justify their sociopathic acts, they must portray themselves as victims and anyone who attempts to intercede as malicious persecutors. This leads directly to paranoia and psychosis, the hallmarks of a warmongering personality disorder.
I also see that plenty of commenters on this thread essentially remark that England though not undeserving of opprobrium, should not be held up as an acolyte of this administration's callous perspective and moral corruption, but rather perhaps as an example of it (and also I infer by the GOP's constantant calculated reliance on emotion rather than reason and rhetoric rather than rationality) that England is but an example of the reflexive ingonrant mindset that the GOP and conservatives prefer to insituliationize, and everyone else's expense, INCLUDING its trusting peripheral supporters.
A nation which elects & re-elects G W Bush & Cheney, and allows them to conduct criminal activities in its name, is just as guilty of the torture & crimes committed by their leaders & members of its military. The innocent civilian argument in a Democracy is hypocrasy, we are all equally responsible for what our nation does, good or bad.
Now that's a real patriot for ya. Where's her lapel pin?
Mike @ 13:
No. She was both remorseful "I felt bad" and unrepentant "but, it's really not my fault"
Rufus @ 43:
...you see, that is correct, but from 1776 on the U.S. Military always scapegoats the lowest involved, and the others run free...
ZombieNation @ 118:
I didn't vote for Chimpy. So, what am I supposed to do about what he's doing? Seriously. "You're all guilty" is easy to say, but what am I supposed to do? Grab some friends and some guns and start a revolution? 'Write a letter' to my congressman? Tell me, how do I absolve myself?
I hear that alot, ‘24′ condones torture. I never took it that way. Yeah, sometimes the torture worked. Sometimes it didn’t. Sometimes they got false info. Remember when Jack tortured his brother Graham? Jack was convinced Graham didn’t know anything, when in fact he did. If anything, I took away from the show the inconsistency and fallability of torture
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This is a just fucking TV show. Has nothing to do with reality. Helloooo!
I think that, regardless of her intelligence level, she should have been able to tell the difference between right and wrong. However, as multiple posters have said, where are the big fish? Someone was in charge of this party, were they not? Someone allowed the group think, or mob mentality, to get a foothold. So, at some higher level this was given approval, a nod and a wink. Where are the nodders and winkers??
listen when you go in the military your scared shitless , if you piss off the wrong officer the wrong sargent the wrong corporal your the one going to be in the brig and your the one the guards are going to take a giant shit on, thats the way it is!!!!!!!reality !
garcia @ 123:
Public opinion is reality. Doesn't matter where that opinion originates, the opinion itself is reality. If people form their opinions on torture from a TV or from a cereal box, then that TV show or that cereal box has everything to do with reality.
I expect you're thinking along the lines that a TV show SHOULDN'T be what people base their opinions on. And that, I 100% agree with.
In an interview with the weekly magazine Stern conducted in English and posted on its website Tuesday, England was both remorseful and unrepentant...
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Both remorseful and unrepentant?!? How is that even possible?? As far as I'm concerned, that's a contradiction in terms.
tyree @ 125:
Agreed and I was in the service myself. If don't do as your told, if you don't end up in the brig for disobeying orders you might get off lucky and get the crappiest duty they can find for you.
A German Magazine!!!?!?!?!?? LMHumongousAO.....!!!!!!
Some of the sexual antics coming from that country closely resemble Abu Ghraib!!!! No wonder she has a sympathetic ear over there...!!!!
They should've forced those prisoners to make exercise videos
They look pretty fit.
How do people like this get into our Armed Services? Oh that's right, the Armed Services like the borderline retarded so they can easily manipulate and brainwash. America, these are the people fighting and defending your country. Get it? She's too stupid to think of blaming the media for the increased violence in Iraq. She was told to say that. I wish nothing but a hellish existence the rest of her time alive.
Fanon @ 124:
People seem to associate intellect level with morality level. And that is a fallacy, there are plenty of moral people who are dumber than a bag of rocks, and there are plenty of psychopaths who are fairly intelligent.
In fact many famous psychopaths and world class assholes were geniuses...
Trying to excuse this piece of garbage in human form because she is "dumb" cheapens the horrors she was part of.
stonicus @ 122:
Aaaah, the "good German" defense.
At the end, everyone in this country is Guilty by association, I know it sucks and it is unfair.
But you know what it is more unfair, when you get your whole family blown up because some people overseas, who you have never met decide that you must be "liberated."
So in the big scheme of things, I would not complain about "what could we have done, booohooooo." We got the better deal, IMHO.
DHSmd @ 99:
Too late, she already had a child... with one of the ring leaders of that cirque.
Amazing the ability of white trash to breed like rabbits...
Abu Ghraib was a SET-UP, TO CREATE ANTI-AMERICAN HATRED.
Rumsfeld was positively giddy at announcing that there were worse images to come out.
Torture at Abu Ghraib was and is an explicit propaganda mission, not an intelligence mission.
Peter Galbraith found the Republican Guard offices, and all their files, being looted in Baghdad. When he called CENTCOM, and even the Pentagon, he was told to mind his own business, that they didn't want RG files, and didn't have the manpower to secure ANYTHING.
Fomenting civil war in order to dismantle a country? That's a pair with fomenting an invasion in order to dismantle THIS country.
bleve @ 11:
I think she was dishonerably discharged after doing time.
Anyone read the Der Speigel interview?
Total denial on her part and even Wal-Mart won't touch her... No job at Wally World for the ex-torturer which given their nasty attitude towards unions I find interesting. They could hire her to keep unions out of their stores... :-)
Here's the link for the interview (in english):
http://www.stern.de/politik/ausland/614356.html?nv=ct_cb
Must read: the new New Yorker magazine Erroll Morris co-written piece on a Lindsey England-esque woman who was also at Abu. You'll probably end up being a little less focused on these two women trying to function in ridiculous circumstances.
Ahhh yes , another one of America's finest , one of Cheney's little hero's . By the way , let's stop calling this Iraq invasion a war and start calling it what it is , a Nazi and Soviet union style INVASION / OCCUPATION ( to get control of Iraqi oil ) . The only ones we are fighting are the Iraqi themselves who want us the hell out of their country , war my ass !
Referring to the banality of evil of these nazis from Bush on down to this piece of shit. Yes hold the big turds of BushCo responsible for the torture, yes they need to be punished, so does this little scumbag.
stonicus @ 111:
What bothers me more about '24' is the plots that center around terrorism and how the show plays into our culture of fear to gain ratings. In my opinion it also glamorizes torture to a degree by portraying Bauer as a loyal public servant who will go to any lengths to protect his country and it's people. That's why I can't watch '24'.
As for England, no one can deny she was in the wrong here and not just with her actions concerning the prisoners. Didn't she have a relationship with one of her fellow solders, while on duty, which resulted in her pregnancy? I believe that isn't allowed in the military either. That's another one of those facts that irritate me as a woman. So many women do want a career in the military and are willing to work as hard as a man to get it. Stuff like this is what the military uses as fodder for the arguments against women serving and a few of those old-school Pentagon boys salivate over it. But my question here is where were her superiors when all of this was going on? The affair, the torture, the prisoner abuse? Oh yeah, he 'resigned', then 'retired' and they put a woman in charge for a while.
This only makes sense in the context of a Bush administration.
Joe O. @ 128:
amen!been there ,done that!
Tyler Durden @ 133:
Ok. So let me ask again, since you didn't answer. What can I do to not be guilty?
The "documentation" of the abuses is evidence of the utter impunity England and her like felt they were entitled to. They never imagined they'd be called to account.
Had the photos not gotten into the MSM, who knows what further crimes might have been committed?
I wondered what she thought, being the sacrificial lamb to hide the administration's guilt in all of this.
Now, I guess that question has been answered.
I can't tell you what I'd like to see this selfish little brat get as her just reward for her part: the site monitor would have words with me. All I ask is that she is shown the same courtesy that she showed her charges in Abu Ghraib.
Gretchen @ 142:
It is specifically designed to do that.
And one of the GREAT side-effects of the writers' strike was that it killed '24' 's new episodes this year, when Bushco needed it to serve the fantasy forgiveness of torture in the public mind.
Kiefer Sutherland has wrecked his career.
The prisoners at Abu Ghraib weren't terrified of the media, babe, just you and your dreranged boyfriend.
What an ugly fucking slut.I hope she rots in hell.Douche bag.
Look. She was dumb then and she's dumb now.
Don't blame the poor kid who served as she was taught to serve.
Blame Bush. He was dumb then and he's dumber now.
Who cares?
She did a little hazing, so what.
You mean to tell me, they have rights?
With the attitudes on this site towards this girl, you all need to be our next ACLU prison wardens. Sheesh.
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