The benchmarks keep changing everyday. "Victory" is whatever Bush decides it is..

What does ‘victory’ mean?

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/1582408149.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg

This question should be asked of every prominent war supporter in front of a camera every day until there's an answer. If they don't fall in line behind an answer, they will be apopleptic when President Obama brings the troops home before there is "victory," whatever that is.

Victory, for those on the gravy train, is the looting of the US Treasury. They have victory every day.

They didn't think about what "victory" would be before they began this war and I don't believe they think about it now. Bush is talking about what people will think of this war in the future and not facing the reality of what is happening now. By always talking about how this will be seen in the future, he is trying to toss the conversation to the delusion of another time. The irresponsibility he projects is frightening.

xoites Hussein (non typical white person) defends Constitution @ 11:

Come on folks we are talking about viictory. It smells like napalm.

I thought it was cooking hotdogs.

The best we can do at this point is remove the contractors imeadiatly, employ the Iraqis to repair the mess we made and slip out quietly.

Victory is staying the course.

Victory, easily defined..... When they run out of oil, and their land is bare, when they are dead or dying from radiation, when the footprint of our base can no longer be used as a launching pad to other oil-rich nations in the area...

AHHHH YESS....... THAT IS VICTORY....... AND THEN WE WILL LEAVE

[Edited for case change-Sitemonitor]

Judging from the Bush playbook which seems ideologically committed to failure, victory is fine for slogans but not an option.

Joe O. @ 19:

This whole "victory" ideal has irked me to no end. I've heard people say "victory" is making the Iraqis in general submit and for them to incorporate  U.S. ideals into their society (More of a colonialist view in my opinion) to making the Iraqis submit by force if necessary, to U.S. will (more of a conqueror view).  Some will throw in "Democracy" in there but even that is an abstract concept that has many different variations to it. 
 
I came to the conclusion that this "victory", however one wishes to define it,  is itself, an unachievable goal no matter what happens in Iraq years from now.  The reason being, everyone has their own idea of what "victory" in Iraq should look like and no two views are exactly the same.

How do you expect to feed the military industrial prison media complex without a victory that is unachievable? Imperialism demands hegemony, you know.

Let's not forget that Fred Kaplan - along with most of the other smug contributors to Slate - is an unapologetic former cheerleader for this war.

xoites Hussein (non typical white person) defends Constitution @ 14:

The best we can do at this point is remove the contractors imeadiatly, employ the Iraqis to repair the mess we made and slip out quietly.

I agree with you and I have been bitching about this for such a long time.
Most of the contractors should have never been there in the first place. The Iraqis are smart people. They know how to build and repair. If they could have gotten jobs there after the invasion, gotten the electric and water on and began getting pay checks, this probably would have never gotten as bad as it has gotten.

"The best victory is when the opponent surrenders of its own accord before there are any actual hostilities...It is best to win without fighting."
Sun-tzu

"Victory is a political fiction."
Anonymous

"One of the greatest victories you can gain over someone is to beat him at politeness."
Josh Billings

Verdillac @ 28:

"The best victory is when the opponent surrenders of its own accord before there are any actual hostilities...It is best to win without fighting."
Sun-tzu

"Victory is a political fiction."
Anonymous

"One of the greatest victories you can gain over someone is to beat him at politeness."
Josh Billings

Something I learned from a fellow chess player long ago.
"If it isn't obvious that you are winning, then you are losing."

Weaseldog @ 29:

pissed off patricia @ 26:

xoites Hussein (non typical white person) defends Constitution @ 14:

The best we can do at this point is remove the contractors imeadiatly, employ the Iraqis to repair the mess we made and slip out quietly.

I agree with you and I have been bitching about this for such a long time.
Most of the contractors should have never been there in the first place. The Iraqis are smart people. They know how to build and repair. If they could have gotten jobs there after the invasion, gotten the electric and water on and began getting pay checks, this probably would have never gotten as bad as it has gotten.

That is the bill of goods we were all sold. The plan that the Iraqis would rebuild their own country. But clearly that was never the administrations plan.

And the counter argument has been that Halliburton is the only corporation in the world that can do reconstruction and operate in Iraq.

Like their no-bid contract to operate cafeterias. Halliburton is clearly the only corporation that can prepare and serve food.

Only Halliburton can build schools and offices.

Only Halliburton can do plumbing repairs.

Only Halliburton can paint walls.

Only Halliburton can wire light sockets.

I believe that if the Iraqis were allowed to rebuild their own country, we wouldn't be in the middle of a civil war now. They would see Iraq as their country and not the property of Halliburton. They would defend their own efforts against destruction.

The reality is only Haliburton can get paid billions of tax payer dollars to do these things while utterly failing to do so.

Someone needs to tell the mass murderer that there was peace in Iraq before we got there and that it will only be possible when we leave.

No. 44 @ 33:

“…one day people will look back at this moment in history and say…”

"I believe 50 years from now, people will look back at this period of time, and say..."

"Fifty years from now, people will look back and say..."

"And people will look back at this moment of history and say..."

Sidney Blumenthal:
"In his unstoppable commentary about himself, Bush has become as certain of his exalted place in history as he is of his policy's rightness. He projects his image into the future, willing his enshrinement as a great president. History has become a magical incantation for him, a kind of prayerful refuge where he is safe from having to think in the present. For Bush, history is supernatural, a deus ex machina, nothing less than a kind of divine intervention enabling him to enter presidential Valhalla. Through his fantasy about history as afterlife -- the stairway to paradise -- he rationalizes his current course."

You've gone digital!

Joe O. @ 19:

This whole "victory" ideal has irked me to no end. I've heard people say "victory" is making the Iraqis in general submit and for them to incorporate  U.S. ideals into their society (More of a colonialist view in my opinion) to making the Iraqis submit by force if necessary, to U.S. will (more of a conqueror view).  Some will throw in "Democracy" in there but even that is an abstract concept that has many different variations to it. 
 
I came to the conclusion that this "victory", however one wishes to define it,  is itself, an unachievable goal no matter what happens in Iraq years from now.  The reason being, everyone has their own idea of what "victory" in Iraq should look like and no two views are exactly the same.

At least "victory" is a word. Fortunately, they've stopped using "islamofacist," which really put me in a face-punching mood.

Victory? I thought we won years ago- Mission Accomplished! We've won, we are merely occupying now, time to go home. The rah-rah 'We're number 1!' Republicans ought to be happy with that- we've won. They can get another magnet ribbon for their car, a 'We Won!' ribbon or something (made in China no doubt, to go with the cheap Saudi oil they need to run those Hummers and Escalades. Great patriots they are.). The neocons won't be so happy declaring victory and leaving, nor will the Blackwater/Halliburton/KBR military industrial complex war profiteering types.

Eric Hussein Almighty @ 38:

Joe O. @ 19:

This whole "victory" ideal has irked me to no end. I've heard people say "victory" is making the Iraqis in general submit and for them to incorporate  U.S. ideals into their society (More of a colonialist view in my opinion) to making the Iraqis submit by force if necessary, to U.S. will (more of a conqueror view).  Some will throw in "Democracy" in there but even that is an abstract concept that has many different variations to it. 
 
I came to the conclusion that this "victory", however one wishes to define it,  is itself, an unachievable goal no matter what happens in Iraq years from now.  The reason being, everyone has their own idea of what "victory" in Iraq should look like and no two views are exactly the same.

At least "victory" is a word. Fortunately, they've stopped using "islamofacist," which really put me in a face-punching mood.

I've had that same feeling many times.

Define Victory in Iraq

somewhere George Orwell is smiling

TheFrankFactor @ 45:

Define Victory in Iraq

Sorry, didn't include link.

QUAGMIRE

By leaving victory undefined they can stay indefinitely or leave on a whim.

Someone forgot to tell President Chimpy that history is full of people that were wrong. Does the name General Custer ring a bell?

Fuck victory.

End. This. War. Today.

Eddie Vedder - No More (Official Video)

Let's make his last months in office pure HELL!

Why are we still having this debate? The mission has already been accomplished.........................go home!!

Can O'Whoopass @ 55:

repug philosophy is based on Baptist ministry's sheep/shepard control.
WE know what's best for our 'sheep' and if you don't do as we say we'll sic the dogs on you.

"BTW, don't expose my arrogance and thievery or I'll DESTROY you."

The repub party needs to be destroyed. There is no room in an America that seeks progress for a party stuck in reverse.

This generation of Republicans in Congress has to be THE worst batch of assholes ever to populate those halls.

We need to dig deep into ourselves to come up with new ways to revivify and refresh and restate our message - and work even harder to get across to the public the damage that is being done to this country.

"By defining victory in Iraq as an outcome that lays “the foundations for peace for generations to come,” George W. Bush ensures that defeat is nearly inevitable.

All the while, of course, John McCain insists that he will deliver more of the same."

It's called perpetual war. Welcome to "Cold War II, The Military-Industrial Complex Strikes Back".

For this administration true victory will be achieved when the next administration is in place and ready to accept the blame for the whole fiasco.

"Victory" to some people in this country means staying in the occupied country until they get so used to us and our culture that the occupied country begins to accept our way of life and become our political and economic partner. For example, look at South Korea. We've been there 60 years. According to McCain's 100-year philosophy, we will be there another 40 years. In the time already past, South Korea has come to accept our presence and has become our economic and political partner. Look at the rhetoric about Vietnam, "we weren't allowed to win!" If we had stayed, we would have won (eventually) because we would still be there and the Vietnamese would see how wonderful our lifestyle is and change their country to become like us. They want to do the same with Iraq, and then Iran, and then, who knows? until the whole northern hemisphere becomes American clones. Then they can have the hemispheric war (northern vs. southern) they've always wanted (look at all those untapped resources under their soil that belong to us!). Cheers everyone!

It won't be "victory" until its "sweeeeeet victory". Until then, its just "turning the corner".

cassandralike @ 62:

"Victory" to some people in this country means staying in the occupied country until they get so used to us and our culture that the occupied country begins to accept our way of life and become our political and economic partner. For example, look at South Korea. We've been there 60 years. According to McCain's 100-year philosophy, we will be there another 40 years. In the time already past, South Korea has come to accept our presence and has become our economic and political partner. Look at the rhetoric about Vietnam, "we weren't allowed to win!" If we had stayed, we would have won (eventually) because we would still be there and the Vietnamese would see how wonderful our lifestyle is and change their country to become like us. They want to do the same with Iraq, and then Iran, and then, who knows? until the whole northern hemisphere becomes American clones. Then they can have the hemispheric war (northern vs. southern) they've always wanted (look at all those untapped resources under their soil that belong to us!). Cheers everyone!

Japan
Germany
The Philippines

also come to mind...

I'm going to say something that's been bugging me since 9/11.
If this War on Terror or whatever is SUCH a huge threat, where's the draft? Where's the higher taxes? If John McCain thinks the prosecution of the war was botched, and it was, then to unbotch it means to do what should have been done on day one. Institute a draft. If Mccain was honest and a straight shooter, this is what he should say. " My friends, this war has been terribly mismanaged, we have not listen to the Generals on the ground, the Generals who spent their whole lives studying war and how to win. That is why, my friends, I propose to reinstate the draft, implement the Powell Doctrine and flood the streets of Iraq with 1 million ground troops, these troops will be supported by the billions of dollars we will obtain by raising taxes especially on the wealthiest among us, who because of our freedoms have become so successful during our long period of expansion and peace. These, my friends, are the hard choices one must make as CiC. Shopping is not the answer, relying on volunteers who signed up to go to college, or because little else was available to them, is not the answer, we must all pull together, rich and poor, black and white, the draft will assure the world and ourselves that we take this threat seriously, it will assure us that the burden is being shared by all Americans. My friends it will be hard, it will be costly but we must deal with the mess in Iraq and to do it a billion at a time, a brigade at a time is surely the road to failure, we must consolodate our power as a nation into a force that cannot be opposed and place that force on every street corner in Baghdad. As I institute the draft I will be recalling all private military contractors and will call for investigations into criminal wrongdoing and corruption in our civilian contractors in Iraq. We will prevail, my friends, because when America does something with all its heart and might we cannot fail."

Now lets see how popular continuing in Iraq is, if he's elected on that platform then we know he has a mandate to continue in Iraq, anything else is just an extension of Bush's failed policies.

For Traitor Bush, Traitor Cheney, and now Traitor McCain, "Victory in Iraq" almost certain means "Attacking Iran." Obviously, that's nonsensical, but Iraq was always supposed to be the foothold for the Iran War, which was the real goal. And "victory" to dictatorial sociopaths like Bush, Cheney, and McCain is the fulfillment of their goals. They want Iranian oil for their corporate sponsors.

What they mean is that you keep doing what doesn't work until it works. It's a corollary of the definition of insanity.

I am reminded by this discussion, and in particular by laketahoeblues comments above, of the Wilfred Owens sonnet Dulce et decorum est (pro patria mori.)
When these terms 'victory' and 'defeat' are bandied about so by politicians and neo-cons and pundits and ExxonMobil style moguls it reminds me of the 'to die for the sword' filled propaganda of 19th century England, which ultimately plunged in the war to end all wars that did not, of course, end wars but merely cemented them into the 'normalcy' of 20th century history.

If in some smothering dreams you too could pace
Behind the wagon that we flung him in...
My friend, you would not tell with such high zest
To children ardent for some desperate glory,
the old Lie: Dulce et decorum est
Pro patria mori.

ConcernedCanuck @ 67:

D.G. Bowman @ 65:

This wasn't a "war" to begin with, so obviously there cannot be a "victory."

I'll never understand why the Democrats went along with this wicked invasion and occupation.

Because they believed the same crap as the Repugs?

No, to look strong and patriotic in the short-term.

What's victory? That word 'victory'.. What's it mean? How do ya get to that ephemeral place??? That ahhh, I got it done, I'm finished, I WIN!! place... I guess it depends on who you ask and what they think constitutes victory for them...

For George? Gets his ass out the wh door without leg irons and cuffs, lives comfortably in Paraguey for a decade or so while Daddy and neocon propagandists works to rehabilitate his image (read re-write history), and sees his library built on public funds.
He comes back and works the rightwing lecture circus along with Ollie and all the rest of them as some kind of phony elder statesmen...Ahhh life is good and someone else clears the brush from the ranch periodically...

For Dick? Money money money made off his private investments in this hateful war. Probably buys himself a bionic heart to replace the empty cavity where a real heart is normally found in actual people, as opposed to an alien troll like him. Ends up retiring from public life to spend all this ill gotten Halliburtin/KBR blood money and silently serves on some economic boards as some kind of unnamed advisor continueing to wreak revenge on America for some unconceivable reason... Probably tied to what happened to him way back during Nam and Wategate when even Nixon wouldn't trust his advice.... Either that or as one more stick poked into the eye of this nation, somehow gets and accepts the nomination of vice president under some other neocon republican troll running for president.. McCain? Naw, probably he'll skip this cycle and wait on the next asshole after him to run with an 'r' beside the name...

For McCain? Finally getting to the wh... The big enchilada, the brass ring... The big dream realized.... at long last... What happens once he gets there? He doubt he really knows, and really probably doesn't care...The war? Just not that big a deal for mr. big picture leader man... He doesn't mind being in a war, especially when he can say he didn't start it, especially when it is someone else doing the fighting, the bleeding, the dying... No, it's the office of the presidency that is the goal, not serving the nation and people... The presidency itself... It's his big deal in life... Everything he's ever pined for delievered up on a silver platter. Nevermind the war, the economy, the devisive nature of our culture now thanks to George, Dick and the neocon ideology of the last 30 years...

That's all just background noise now for a 71 year old former skirt chasin second rate fighter pilot who bullshitted his way to medals, rank, trophy wife and all the other priviledges he currently enjoys. He probably doesn't have any more of a clue what to do as president than he did at any other juncture in his life. Unlike the phony meme about how he has actually lived that life. For me he more and more begins to look like the real world incarnation of Robert Redfords charactor in the candidate. For those unfamilier with it... Watch it, it's a good lesson in how this nation actually grows its vapid empty headed politicians these days.... As it was actually produced and delievered to the public in 1969 or thereabouts, makes it a cautionary tale of the future of American politics....

For the rest of us? Well for the reality based live and let live slight majority, probably just getting these rodents out of office in their entirety would be a start... Actual victory? Probably not achievable in the immediate future. Not any kind of victory we would recognize anyway. Real victory would be returning this nation to a standard of living and world image that the republicans and neocons have spent the last 30 plus years beginning with Reagan systematically deconstructing for their own selfish purposes. Purposes which it should be clear by now, are doing nothing but ruining the country.........JD

What does victory mean? What day is it?

Mike @ 67:

I'm going to say something that's been bugging me since 9/11.
If this War on Terror or whatever is SUCH a huge threat, where's the draft? Where's the higher taxes? If John McCain thinks the prosecution of the war was botched, and it was, then to unbotch it means to do what should have been done on day one. Institute a draft. If Mccain was honest and a straight shooter, this is what he should say. " My friends, this war has been terribly mismanaged, we have not listen to the Generals on the ground, the Generals who spent their whole lives studying war and how to win. That is why, my friends, I propose to reinstate the draft, implement the Powell Doctrine and flood the streets of Iraq with 1 million ground troops, these troops will be supported by the billions of dollars we will obtain by raising taxes especially on the wealthiest among us, who because of our freedoms have become so successful during our long period of expansion and peace. These, my friends, are the hard choices one must make as CiC. Shopping is not the answer, relying on volunteers who signed up to go to college, or because little else was available to them, is not the answer, we must all pull together, rich and poor, black and white, the draft will assure the world and ourselves that we take this threat seriously, it will assure us that the burden is being shared by all Americans. My friends it will be hard, it will be costly but we must deal with the mess in Iraq and to do it a billion at a time, a brigade at a time is surely the road to failure, we must consolodate our power as a nation into a force that cannot be opposed and place that force on every street corner in Baghdad. As I institute the draft I will be recalling all private military contractors and will call for investigations into criminal wrongdoing and corruption in our civilian contractors in Iraq. We will prevail, my friends, because when America does something with all its heart and might we cannot fail."

Now lets see how popular continuing in Iraq is, if he's elected on that platform then we know he has a mandate to continue in Iraq, anything else is just an extension of Bush's failed policies.

Why raise taxes when you can print infinite quantities of money? The Government's ability to borrow and spend infinite quantities of money, gives the appearance that fiscal responsibility is unnecessary.

And remember, John McCain says that the rising price of food has nothing to do with the war. So this is the first war ever, where the rising price of food wasn't the result of the war.

Sun Tzu argued that an occupation will always lead to rising prices and shortages of goods that the people need. And he has always been right. But McCain is greater military commander than Sun Tzu and if he says that Sun Tzu is wrong, who am I to contradict him?

I look at Bush and Cheney as two nut jobs surrounded by a bunch of other nut jobs. Since they aren't truly insane what is their real objective? Follow the money people. Break the country and you derail the entire New Deal. The government will have no choice but to cancel programs the Right considers anathema to capitalism.

Stay the course until the contracts get signed allowing American oil companies first bite at all that Iraqi oil. Methinks the families Bush and Cheney will fill their pockets with some of that money.

Now McCain is a different story. He really might just be a nut or wrapped up in the delusion of fighting Vietnam all over again, still believing if we had stayed longer we would have won a defensive war.

If you are truly interested in what they mean by "victory in Iraq" then read this:
A Clean Break: A New Strategy for Securing the Realm

It's the blueprint for all the US & Israel have done militarily in the Middle East since 9/11.

Or read about it here:
(Wikipedia) A Clean Break: A New Strategy for Securing the Realm

FOUR MORE BREASTS!

Preferably on two women.

What does mean mean?

Victory is never having to say you're sorry.

(And they won't be either.)

One cannot win an occupation. And America doesn't deserve to "win" anything in Iraq.

Illegal war.

Illegal occupation.

Brought to you by the Lawless president of The Rogue Nation.