The candidate characteristic we're not supposed to talk about
When it comes to personal characteristics and diversity, the 2008 presidential race has covered a lot of ground. Are Americans prepared to embrace an African-American candidate (Obama)? A woman (Clinton)? A Mormon (Romney)? A Latino (Richardson)? A thrice-married serial adulterer (Giuliani)?
But the one question that no one seems anxious to talk about is the fact that John McCain, at age 72, would be the oldest person ever elected president. There’s apparently some public discomfort over this, but it’s ground that few are prepared to tread.
In his big foreign policy speech the other day in Los Angeles, McCain began his remarks with a personal anecdote:
“When I was five years old, a car pulled up in front of our house in New London, Connecticut, and a Navy officer rolled down the window, and shouted at my father that the Japanese had bombed Pearl Harbor. My father immediately left for the submarine base where he was stationed. I rarely saw him again for four years.”
Now, I suspect the story was intended to remind the audience about the proud military history in McCain’s family, but there were probably more than a few people who heard the anecdote and thought, “Wait, McCain was already five in 1941?”
I mention this in part because the new NBC/WSJ poll (pdf) asked respondents if they think Americans are prepared to elected an otherwise qualified candidate, who happens to be have certain characteristics. 72% of Americans, for example, said the country is prepared to elect an African-American president, and 71% said we’re also ready for a woman president.
But when asked about a candidate over the age of 70, the number dropped to 61%.
This isn’t a new problem, which is all the more reason it’s surprising this is barely a blip on the political world’s radar.
I half-expected the age issue to be a bigger deal. Way back in February 2007, an WaPo/ABC poll asked Americans: “I’m going to read a few attributes that might be found in a candidate for president. Please tell me if each would make you more likely to vote for that candidate for president, or less likely to vote for that candidate, or if it wouldn’t matter.” When the attributes mentioned race, gender, religion, and marital status, poll respondents generally didn’t care at all. When the poll mentioned a 72-year-old candidate, 58% said they would be “less likely” to vote for such a candidate — more than the totals for a woman, African American, and/or Mormon combined.
Around the same time, a USAT/Gallup showed that 42% of voters said they wouldn’t support an otherwise qualified 72-year-old candidate.
But that was well over a year ago, before the race began in earnest. Have the numbers changed? Not much.
A CBS/NYT poll last month asked American what the best age is for a president. A majority (55%) preferred someone in their 50s, while a president in his or her 40s was second (with 26%). How many preferred someone in their 70s? Less than one percent.
Earlier this month, the WaPo polled on this again, and found that Americans still aren’t on board with electing the oldest president in history. Poll respondents were told that Hillary Clinton would be the first female president. 20% said that makes them more enthusiastic about her candidacy, while 11% said less. They were told that Barack Obama would be the first African-American president. 16% said that makes them more enthusiastic about his candidacy, while 11% said less. And when told about McCain’s age, 4% said that makes them more enthusiastic about his candidacy, while 27% said less.
Here’s the catch: Americans may not like the idea of a 72-year-old candidate, but no one has any idea how to take advantage of this. What are Dems supposed to do, tell elderly jokes? That’s clearly not going to happen.
Voters may not be comfortable with McCain’s age, but figuring out what to do about this may be one of the more complicated questions facing Dems in the general election.
Article correction:
But the one question that no one seems anxious to talk about is the fact that John McCain, at age 72, would be the oldest person ever elected president.
NOT TO MENTION HE IS PANAMANIAN & NOT A NATURAL BORN AMERICAN!
I remember during the Republican primary, when McCain was losing (and left for dead) they used his age as the explanation for his problems. However, once they found out the other Republican candidates were all even CRAZIER, McCain's age (maybe we should call him (McCANE - like needs a cane? Anyone?) wasn't brought up again.
The Democrats should not attack McCain on his age. Attack him on his policies, which are wrong. Let the age thing just stew in the back of people's minds. We really do not want to piss off the elderly - our most reliable group of voters.
below_me @ 1:
Actually, he IS a natural born American. He was born in the Canal Zone, which at that time was American territory. Besides which, having two American citizens as parents makes him a native born American, no matter where he was born. If he was ineligible to run for President, don't you think someone would have brought it up already?
Yeah, but his age is sure to land him major endorsement deals for products advertised during network newscasts.
I wouldn't necessarily attack him for being 72 but I'd really be curious to know what meds he's taking. I mean at 72, with his history, and in America land of the Pharmaceutical Co. I can only imagine the cocktail of daily meds he may be taking. I want to know about side effects, I want to know about complications arising from mixing them all.
(really I don't want to know. I just think it'd be a good avenue of attack for a surrogate to make)
ekwhite @ 3:
I agree. Allow him to show his age himself. To batter him about it would look disrespectful. That's not what I think the party wants to do.
What I wonder is at his age, why in the hell would he want the probably most demanding and time consuming job in the world?
pissed off patricia @ 7:
Ya at this point I think I could beat McCain in the General just by running an ad campaign based on video clips of McCain.
Why would a Democratic nominee make this argument directly?
Both Clinton and Obama are healthy people who will probably be in public service well into the time they are 80-90. They wouldn't want this argument thrown back at them in the future. Being President though, is more stressful than other careers in public service, so perhaps an argument could be made there.
I don't think it's the strongest argument to make against McCain because he could just as easily remind voters that he has more experience. Moreover, if the concern is that McCain will die during his term, I think there's an equally strong argument that Barack Obama might be assassinated because of his historic presidency.
pissed off patricia @ 7:
As Bush 3.0, he'll be able to vacation as much as he wants. He could even give a go at breaking Bush 2.0's record.
There are no signs that Bush 2.0 is under any kind of pressure. As our troops and Iraqis suffer in a hell he created, he dances and laughs.
Perhaps Bush 3.0 could gain the same kind of satisfaction and joy from the suffering of others, that Bush 2.0 enjoys?
And as to McCain being 5 in 1941, at least he didn't say he was 5 years old when WWI began.
McMisstatement has too many senior moments.
Doddering old fools should not be in charge of nukes.
Age is the wrong thing to address. If anything is going to be addressed it should be the things that typically come with age that may be a problem. Declining mental health being a big one.
If he's of sound mind at age 99 that's fine with me.
There are a lot of things wrong with McCain that can be assualted but since nobody (MSM) is really doing that coming up with new things to assault isn't going to make a difference. We can come up with a 10,000 item laundry list and the MSM will still concern themselves with irrelevant bullshit.
And has been said, attacking a person because of their age just exacerbates our piss-poor national dialogue.
I think the way to go is bombard the airwaves with McCain's various positions on every issue and show him in no uncertain terms to be a serial panderer. And while doing that, do it some more with his panderific war-mongering.
McCain traded his integrity for a shot at the white house. He's as weak as a person can be and that needs to have bright light shone on it.
My mom is 75 , And she has dementia now,among other things.
I'm sorry, but at the risk of sounding discriminatory against people who are older.McCain is just too old. The brain cells start to breakdown at an older age. Now, I'm not saying all people over 70 are the same.It's just Sen McCain has had a few gaffes lately,which to me is evidence that he's not in top form for the job.
Not too mention I disagree with him on his political positions.
But hey, I'm sure he'd be a helluva nice guy to burn one with, and maybe pound a few beers with.
I agree that we shouldn't bang him up on his age, but it certainly is a consideration. Presidentin's hard work don'tcha know.
Add his continuing support of the totally failed GOP domestic policies, and you have the makings of a republican whoppin' for the ages.
Tax-cuts for the rich, trickle-down poverty, and socialism that only extends to Wall Street millionaires. Good luck selling that flaming turd to the American people this time around Mr. McInsane!
McCain's "Senior Moments" a Product of Bush's Iran Propaganda
i think this will actually not hurt mccain....further, it will help to shield him from allegations of adultery and sex-bribes...however substantiated they might be, nobody wants to believe that grandpa is having sex with somebody two or three generations younger....even dems...
No need to harp on his age, just show this clip
The problem with politicians of his era seems to be that they ignore the saying :you can't take it with you" -- they do try to take it all down when they go. Ego.
I think people are missing a big point here: it doesn't matter if a candidate brings up an issue anymore, we are in the age of surrogates. I don't think Bush ever accused John Kerry of faking his wounds etc. He didn't have to. I think there will be plenty of talk about McCain's age. Especially if Hillary is the nominee:can you imagine Bill keeping his mouth shut on this one?
Indeed, why is it acceptable to repeatedly ask Senator Obama if he's black enough, white enough, etc, yet no one asks McCain if his age is a liability, which I believe it is. Why would a 72 year old man want such an incredibly stressful job, and is he really up to the mental and physical strain? It's absolutely a legitimate question. I'm only 50, yet certainly have much less energy and stamina than just 5 years ago. Let's face it, the next president is inheriting a huge mess from the Bushies.
Demographic concerns -- older people still read newspapers, so papers won't make a big deal; the group formerly known as the American Association for Retired Persons; our whole economic system redistributes AWAY from younger people and towards older people (Social Security is wide, aid to schools is local), so there are powerful forces at play in keeping aging acceptable. And psychologically, most of us will be old one day and we'd probably like to think, Hey, I could be pres at 72! So I don't think this one will play well even if it should be an issue. Energy, clear thinking, flexibility, ability to deal with new technology, fewer chronic health problems -- this is a younger person's game.
Forget the age thing. It's self evident and could backfire.
Plus, some might consider senility a major improvement after the imbecility of Dumbya the incompetent.
the fact that Bush and Chaney are still in office is barely a blip on the political world’s radar.
Clinton would have a bit of difficulty running against McCain after the comment she made about his having experience and the one Bill made about McCain loving his country. Taking those two clips, McCain's campaign will have a nice political ad for McCain. His opponent has already in some way endorsed him for his patriotism and experience.
If McCain and Obama appear on a stage together I think the age difference will be very apparent. No one need make note of it.
What exactly was going on inside McBush's head at this moment?
ekwhite @ 4:
they already have. :o)
At 70+, you should be worried hosting bridge games, playing shuffle board, and just plain chillin' and not destroying nations (including this one.)
pissed off patricia @ 25:
That won't be nearly as apparent as the domestic policy differences, as McInsane will be giving the finger (ala Bush) to 90% of american's, while Obama will be adressing the reality of the GOP (aristocratic) economic failures.
Why would a senior citizen even want the toughest job in America? How is refusing to retire any different than, for example, Castro holding onto power for as long as he did?
I am disgusted at dictatorial men who can't let go. Maybe McCain finds his grandkids annoying, who knows? I can picture him sitting on the porch hollering at neighborhood children to keep off his perfectly manicured lawn.
America already endured a senile President under Reagan. When will we learn?
I'm not nearly as old as McCain but I sure as hell wouldn't want to begin a new career at this stage of my life. When I'm his age I want to just kick back and try to enjoy every day with no pressures or major ordeals to deal with.
pissed off patricia @ 31:
agreed.
but somehow I get the feelin that it won't be so easy.
ok off to work,have a nice day folks.
pissed off patricia @ 31:
my friend, have you seen what the lobbyists and the interns look like in DC.....that's not what I call working too hard...
these people in DC spend their time getting wined and dined and supined....it's like one big strip club up there.....
Despite indications pof early dementia, the press will continue to not do it's job. They'll keep cheer leading.
ChrisM70 @ 2:
What makes you say he is otherwise qualified.
I refute that as a given. Are you just giving them that ground, or maybe you are just being nice today.
He doesn't understand economics and he doesn't seem to understand the Middle East.
McCain is NOT competent.
The big picture here, is that the same "handlers" that take care of Bush, aka "Bubble Boy", will be business-as-usual with grandpa. The fact that Dubya sleeps well at night, thinks working in Iraq is exciting and romantic, and he is, of course, envious of the troops(!) proves his grasp of reality is somewhat iffy. Grandpa is more likely to suffer from garden-variety dementia, but the net effect is the same: others handle them, and the corporate-owned media looks the other way.
pissed off patricia @ 31:
I'm a little shy of that grand age too. I say "Just keep the Aleve bottle handy."
Other than the sheep who will vote republican no matter if the devil himself were on the republican ticket, I would like to hear why people are going to vote for McCain. I can't figure it out. When it comes to the major problems we face today, he really will be bush III
pissed off patricia @ 31:
These ultra-rich aristocrats spend their entire lives without a care in the world. They don't have any of the daily pressures the rest of us deal with. Their money insulates them from 95% of life's typical worries. Power is just the ultimate aphrodisiac for these ego-maniacs.
To speak to his experience.
He argued passionately that torture is wrong, illegal, and evil.
Then he supported it through his voting record.
He knew full well that he was committing a war crime by voting for it. He even told us it was a war crime. And he did it anyway.
This isn't the kind of experience I want in a President.
Paul @ 35:
That's because he's the closest thing to their hero Reagan, 1/2 dead!
Age should be of concern to everyone! In fact I think it should be a predominant factor. I recently lost my father aged seventy four. He was very healthy, vegetarian, regularly exercised and was very active. I always thought he would live well in to his eighties. Two yrs before his death he had a series of minor strokes and started showing signs of dementia. Before his diagnosis he showed only subtle signs (slight confusion and memory loss). The family knew something was wrong, but not sure exactly what. Later on the doctors told us that age related dementia and stroke is very common in older people.
My point is that McCain may look and be healthy right now, but if he is elected he will be in charge till he is 80. Age related changes can be very subtle. Loss in cognitive skills is very very common in the elderly. Experience, character or any other positive factor will not mean much if his health deteriorates!
McCain was picked by MSM. The fact is many so-called conservatives claimed they would never vote for him. Remember Limpballs frothing at the mouth at the thought? Now the sheeple will join together and tamper with MY primary just to screw up the election process. What tools!
[Ooh. I see black people. zorro, take your white fearmongering about black people over to Stormfront. Please. I'm tired of reading your junk-Sitemonitor]
There's something else that I've thought about regarding age. There reaches a point in when it comes long past time for one generation to hand things over to the next. To continue to try to control things beyond that point is unseemly and invariably screws things up. McCain's crowd is still grasping at power when they should have turned it over to people whose turn it rightly is. That's part of the problem of GW's presidency, he's just a proxy for George HW and crew who won't let go of power. Their paradigms are outdated, because they aren't based in principle, and so, these guys keep dreaming old dreams that miss or would deny the promise of the future.
But then again, given their policies, it's clear they never gave a damn about the future, judging from the messes they seem eager to leave people who have not yet even been born.
Can anyone explain to me what it is about being a prisoner of war for 5 years or so that him a hero. I keep seeing it and hearing it. McCain is a war hero. Does that mean that anyone who does a stint in jail is a hero too? Are the poor bastards down in Gitmo heroes? It seems to me that if anything he should be called a war criminal. He's one of the major proponents of the currents extravaganzas that Chimpy is putting on in the Middle East. He wants to invite a few new countries to get in on the fun. Hello, can Iran come out to play? In my books that makes him a monster. The U. S. is already responsible for over a million deaths in the region and McCrazy wants to kill another million.
You can bet that prospective VP candidates are salivating at the idea of being his running mate, provided he should get elected.
McAssholeWithoutAClue is inconsequential. Here is the real battle.
bajasteve @ 48:
Sure Ahnold is going to be his running mate. I'm sure he'll figure out how to stage a coup by the time McCain dies in office.
The republican party is so hell-bent on keeping the power of the W.H. that they had no choice but McCain. Think about it...the other repub candidates were going nowhere. If they can shove McCain down the repub voters throat then no problem. Don't forget he is a "hero" NOT! McCain will be president in name only. There will be plenty of "advisers" to prop him up in front of the cameras and teleprompter and the repubs will be happy. McCain is entitled to take lots of vacations (ala Bush) and so should not get too tired. He can always send his VP to visit other countries while he basks in the sunshine of AZ. See how easy it sounds. Age makes no difference when you have the repubs behind you. Age makes a difference only if you are a Democrat.
ekwhite @ 4:
Well that's the question, isn't it? Constitutionally, mere citizenship isn't a sufficient qualification for the presidency. You must be born in a U.S. state or territory. Was the Panama Canal Zone an American territory when McCain was born there or did the U.S. merely have treaty-based control over that area of Panama? If it was ours, why did we ever give it up?
bajasteve @ 48:
Lieberman?
The GOP always will look for a front man and in McCain they found one. He is just another Bush and will be a puppet whose strings will be pulled. The United States cannot afford another idiot as a leader. McCain is just another idiot in GOP type clothing.
It may not be an issue, if his campaign surrogates keep referring to his gaffes as "senior moments."
75% of Americans would rather have a McMuffin than a McOld.
Expect the GOP to attack Obama on his age (i.e. too young = inexperienced).
The Rovian strategy is to attack the opponent on the issue that is their own weakness.
Filthy Harry @ 6:
I wonder who would be his vice president because he'll probably not serve out his term of course under Mccain there wouldn't be a country left.
Rolled down the window? How is that done?
There's no reason to talk about McCain's age... yet. That's the ace they'll play later in the game.
And when they do play the age card, it will hurt McCain bad. And rightfully so, if the guy served two terms, he'd be over 80 years old upon leaving office. Campaign issues aside, that's going to turn off a lot of voters.
Maybe Romney can buy his way to VP position.
Paul @ 46:
I can see your point on some of the issues but the current banking mess is because people haven't had a depression like our folks had there is a reason why there is regulation those that think we don't need it are those that profit from it before the collaspe
Well after having Reagan do the Alzheimer thing on us in the White House, does anyone blame the American public for wanting to know who is making the decisions? And I'm not sure that I am comfortable with a hotheaded Senator who might be suffering age-related memory lapses.
No need to make a BIG deal of McCain's age. As time goes by he will have more and more "senior moments", as Britney Hume calls them. With a few words here and there about his age and maybe a couple references to Reagan's senility and that should do it.
HAMMERING hammering hammering hammering hammering hammering hammering on his policies will defeat him. Especially with the surge working as well as it is. Bring up the economy a few times a week and he will be dust in the wind. Don't forget his "more of the same" health care stand. McCain has no idea the shit he will be picking out of his teeth (because the shit is going to hit the fan and blow back into his face) once the Democrat is in place. lol
I seem to recall that Reagan was asked, during a presidential campaign, if he became senile during the presidency, would he step down... I forget his answer, but I believe Reagan was ALREADY senile even before he became president. I believe John McCain is also senile right now. But it couldn't be any worse that the asshole who is President right now.
What a f*&king joke. What is this country so afraid of, that we have to put this octogenarian in the White House?
Are we so afraid to actually put a post Viet Nam era candidate in the White House?
Pathetic children.
I agree with those who are questioning McCain's war hero status. I appreciate that he served his country honorably, but war hero because he was a POW. He was in a situation over which he had absolutely no control. He had no choice but to find a way to cope (does that make him a hero?). I look at a hero as someone who is self-sacrificing or demonstrates leadership in the face of personal danger for the benefit of others or for the sake of duty/honor. John McCain may arguably be stronger from the experience, but a hero? John Kerry was far more a war hero, and look what the right wingers did to him. He actually lead his men into hostile territory under gun fire. He actively engaged in heroic acts, made decisions in which in life was in peril. How is it that the right wing swift boaters got away with trashing an actual war hero, yet McCain status as "war hero" is beyond scrutiny.
king of mean @ 65:
I wouldn't bet on it.
Bush 2.0 set the bar to a new low. Bush 3.0 has been bragging that he'll go further.
ekwhite @ 4:
It has been brought up, though not in a major way. I read one article that stated this issue could be used to explain how we need to close Guantanamo, which no matter what Cheney says is an American territory and therefore should be subject to the laws (can we all say habeus corpus?) as any U.S. territory. If the canal zone was not considered an American territory, McCain can't be president. If the Canal Zone was an American territory, then so is Guantanamo.
I don't think the issue is so much McCain's age as the way age shows ON HIM. There are plenty of very vigorous 72-year olds out there, playing tennis and golf, etc. McCain, though, with his cancer fight (is he even cancer-free?) and mental lapses is not your vigorous 72-year-old.
You know what, I completly understand why you are pushing these"Media is soft on McCain" stories. But, why yell about them now? Do you want the media to cover these stories now and get them outta the way, or wait til closer to the election. My thinking is lets talk about them closer to the national election so the stay "fresh" in the minds of voters.
Spicegal @ 67:
Spicegal- Isn't it a little bit dishonest to fail to mention that McCain turned down an offer to be let free as a POW unless those prisoners who were imprisoned before him were let go too? How is that not 'self-sacrificing', or how is it not 'demonstrating leadership in the face of personal danger for the benefit of others or for the sake of duty/honor'?
McCain spoke out against the Swiftboat Veterans for Truth, yet you seem to question why he is not getting 'swiftboated' too. If you really want closer scrutiny and John Kerry-like treatment of his war hero status, why don't you find out who he served with and ask them their opinions of him.
It shouldn't be hard to find 264 of them who would disagree with McCain's version of his VietNam war experience, should it?
And since this thread is on the age discrimination issue, enlightened progressives that most commenters here are, maybe ask those same veterans if McCain is too old to be President. That is, if you can keep them on the line long enough to get a cogent answer out of them, the doddering old fools.
ekwhite @ 3:
I am an "older American", not quite as old as McCain, but nevertheless......Having a 72 year old president scares me quite a lot. Most people of his age are looking to retire, or at least cut back on the workload. They are not looking to take on the very difficult job of running a country. I guess McCain thinks that if an idiot like Bush can "be in charge" for 8 years, he should certainly be able to handle it.
The shape this adminstration will be leaving this country in will require someone with all faculties in top working order. Even someone with everything working well is going to have a tough time turning this country's financial and international problems around.
A man who is a former POW and a cancer survivor, who is past his prime mentally should be writing his memoirs and taking afternoon naps.
Mr.Mom @ 70:
Makes no difference. The economy will do this guy in. If we all think it's "Bush's War", let me tell you this will truly be "Bush's Economic Recession" when all is said and done.
In addition to his confusion about Shia and Sunni, the guy flip-flops so much that it's reasonable to wonder if he's losing his faculties. After all he's been through - destroying an expensive piece of military hardware, dumping the woman who raised his kids so he could marry a rich bimbo, the Keating Five scandal - it's quite possible that he doesn't have all his marbles.
That why the evangelicals want Huckabee to be McCain's running mate, in case he goes belly up.
Give the man some credit. He only started telling the Pearl Harbor story in order to connect with voters through a shared experience. Strangely his original story - about the "Maine" exploding in Havana bay and his father rushing off to war - didn't deem to work.
A Google search of 'John McCain' and 'age issue' yielded 1,690,000 hits.
How can his age be described as 'The candidate characteristic we’re not supposed to talk about'?
joeedugan @ 76:
ROTFLMAO!
joeedugan @ 76:
Since I was born AFTER Pearl Harbor and am collecting my Social Security, not a huge segment of the population still around to say, "Oh, yeah, I remember exactly where I was on December 7, 1941." Instead of connecting with the old-timers, he should be meeting with some folks who can bring him up to speed on the economy and the Middle East.
As much as anything else, presidential campaigns are won and lost by the media narratives that rightly or wrongly come to define a candidate. In the case of Repubican nominee John McCain, the seemingly unshakable narrative of the political "maverick" could not be further off the mark. At almost every turn, McCain in his eternal quest for the White House has reversed long-held positions, compromised core principles and swallowed his pride in order to curry favor with both the leading lights of the conservative movement and right-wing Republican primary voters. The untold story of campaign 2008 is simply that of John McCain's transformation from maverick to prostitute.
For the details, see:
"From Maverick to Prostitute: The Untold Story of John McCain."
Next on Fox News - Age and the Presidency - Is Obama too young to be President?
ysbaddaden @ 75:
Unless the country goes belly up first.
ekwhite @ 3:
Even someone who's his age should be able to recognize that #1 there's a risk that his health is not all that great. The Presidency takes a toll on everyone who inhabits the office -- even Bush, who is the most unserious, over-vacationed fuck-off to ever occupy it has aged noticably in the last 7 years. Imagine what it's going to do to McCain, who's starting out at a huge deficit already.
#2, Alzheimer's. Frankly everyone should be able to recognize that senility and dementia are more likely in the elderly (I've recently read that it is likely to happen to everyone if they live long enough) and that it's not just any old job.
Finally, John McCain is old. Old old old old old old old old old. He's one old old old guy. Older than dirt. Old old old old old old. Creaky and crickety. Old old.
At least we'll know McCain will be awake at 3AM when the phone rings. Just gotta make sure there's a phone in the john.
Hey c'mon now. Admit it... senility makes rich white guys more lovable. Remember the Gipper? How about our twice installed dubya? Rethugs need an empty suit in the big house. How else could the real prezidents control the world?
John McCain:
One foot in the grave, the other on a banana peeling. How long was Reagan still in office with his Alzheimer's?
It's not the age, it's the dementia
Plenty of 72 year-olds are as sharp as they ever were, and obviously add to that the advantage of experience. But many also aren't as sharp as they were. Just being 72 should not be an issue at all for a presidential candidate, but having even a mild or early dementia should be an absolute disqualifier.
I think that there is good reason to suspect that McCain has early dementia. Problems with impulse control generally precede cognitive difficulties, and to my mind, raise the strongest question of his mental state. I can't imagine the McCain of the 2000 campaign letting the "Bomb, bomb, bomb; bomb, bomb Iran" thing slip past impulse control. His outbursts of temper have also reportedly gotten worse and more unpredictable.
It is not clear that the "Iran funds al Qaeda" thing wasn't intentionally deceptive, though at least Lieberman pretty clearly treated it as a lapse. You'ld think that Lieberman would be plugged into any use of this idea as a mendacious ploy, and so would not have corrected McCain, publicly at that, as he did. If it wasn't intentional, then, while you could pass off one occurrence as a slip of the tongue, three times in two days could not be a slip of the tongue. If you further grant that McCain is at all knowledgeable about foreign policy issues, then such a very basic error is analogous to Reagan's idea that ICBMs could be recalled after they were launched. The general electorate had no idea how basic a misconception this was, and so did not appreciate that this one statement, which, Lord knows, was not an isolated incidence of confusion over matters that Reagan had to have once known, pretty much cinched an assessment of dementia. I suspect that even most fairly-well informed people don't appreciate that radical Shia and radical Sunni are so opposed to each other that McCain's error wasn't over some abstruse point, but represents a mental lacune, rather than a simple error. Or rather, would represent a clear lacune if we could rule out an intentional misrepresentation.
Now, McCain clearly is not to the point of obvious (think Strom Thurmond) or theatrical, Hollywood dementia. He doesn't appear in public in his pajamas, he doesn't wander off and get lost, or fail to recognize his wife. Because he lacks these signs that everyone "knows" he would display if he had Alzheimer's, of course everyone knows that he can't have Alzheimer's. What people who have not experienced this problem apart from Hollywood representations don't appreciate, is that people who suffer from dementia are generally able to keep up appearances for a long time even after they are deep into cognitive impairment. Most of what most of us do is habit and routine anyway, and people with dementia are often able to "pass" as grossly normal until the very end stages, when even things that are habit and routine start to slip into the memory lacunes. The rich and successful have the added advantage of being assisted through their daily lives by people who help them keep up appearances by gradually and discretely taking on everything that requires actual decisions, as opposed to just keeping up appearances. It is unlikely that Reagan contributed anything of polcy substance to the presidency that bears his name, beyond the name and the genial appearance his sunny disposition conferred on distinctly non-genial policies. The problem of electing someone with even early dementia to the presidency is that what we will actually get, is not the president we vote for, but a presidency by a committee ruling from the shadows. If McCain truly thinks that Iran supplies al Qaeda, then he will have to be shunted aside when his administration makes any actual decisions. Who knows who will make those decisions, but it surely will not be anybody who could ever be elected president.
The candidate could, of course, clear this matter up by submitting to the standard neuro-psych testing designed to assess dementia. The likelihood of his doing this approximates zero, though. His campaign would have everything to lose, and nothing to gain. The media will never convey any pressure to do so, because positive results would make them look like courtiers who couldn't see that the emperor's new clothes didn't exist.
Let me guess Glen Tomkins, you thought Bill Frist's medical diagnosis of Terry Shiavo by way of video feed was a crock of shit.
Liberal AND Proud @ 82:
I like getting my belly scratched.
It makes my left leg jerk up and down.
I for one, would enjoy seeing a photo of some elderly people holding a sign that says something akin to "Seniors Against Seniors for President."
Will his Depends have the Presidential Seal on them?
I didn't read all the comments, but I'm gonna say this. After losing my mother,father,brother,and grandmother to cancer,I think that from the look of McCrazy's jaw,that cancer may be making a big come back and at his age, a return of any cancerous tumor could either make McCrazy very ill or kill him.PS-I'm 62 years old and nobody is going to hurt my feelings by getting on McCrazy's because of his advanced age.
McCain is OLD OLD OLD! with all the negative age related potential that means...Period... No getting around it.. At 72 he needs to be doing anything other than trying to run this nation. It's not an easy job in the best of times for a much younger man... And after Bush has just spent the last eight years totally fucking it up from here to eternity..... John McCain, the guy with no economic perspective or experience, he admits it, the guy who is an outright cheerleader for warmongers and lets face it.. given the actual history, not that hot a fighter pilot, is the man with the right stuff??? McCain??? Bomb bomb bomb, Bomb bomb Iran McCain is da man now!!???Fuck me to tears, this is just batshit crazy bazzarro world now if anyone right, left or center thinks this is a good idea......JD
Liberal AND Proud @ 91:
And will his Presidential Seal play bulbed horns for herring?
At 68, should Nancy Pelosi step down as Speaker of the House, jack damage? She'll probably be the one to tell Hillary she needs to step aside; do you think she has the mental capacity at that advanced age to make that move?
McCain's Theme Song
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E26QeZ62HaI
Weaseldog @ 96:
A better version...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9Xrl0SSqG0
Hey, we already had one geezer, the repugs all time #1 hero ronnie, who was a victim of Alzheimer's Disease while serving the last few years of the presidency.
We don't need some old, gimpy, war mongering fart occupying the Oval Office and calling the shots for the future of our children and grand children.
Get a hammock and head for the shade, mcbush!! TOO OLD!! There, I said it.
dennis @ 88:
Diagnoses differ
Some diagnoses can only be made by examining a tissue sample under a microscope. "No meat, no treat" is an oncological maxim. But most diagnoses are clinical rather than pathological, and are based on considering an array of signs, symptoms and test results, an array that varies widely with varying diagnoses. Some people with Parkinson's, for example, could be very confidently diagnosed with that disorder based on a characteristic tremor obvious after just a few seconds of seeing them on video. This is completely true despite the fact that most other diagnoses are not possible from just a few seconds of watching a video. Even most early Parkinson's would not be diagnosable in this way.
Deciding between persistant vegetative state and lesser degrees of brain dysfunction would rest upon an array of physical exam findings, observations of the patient's highest level of functioning, plus testing (mostly imaging studies), all collated and compared over at least six months' time. So, yes, it is possible to say with a high degree of confidence that Frist's assessment of Schiavo as not having PVS based on a brief video was totally and utterly crockful, because it did not at all follow the way that that particular diagnosis, PVS, is ruled in or out. Some meta-diagnoses of stupid, such as this diagnosis of Frist, are indeed that simple and straightforward, though admittedly most diagnoses of stupid are not simple or straightforward.
If I'm wrong about McCain, I would at least think it fair to say that my stupid is at least complex and subtle. My position on McCain is that I suspect, based purely on how he carries himself on camera now compared to 2000, specifically the "Bomb Iran" thing, and on reports that his tantrums seem more frequent and unpredictable, that early dementia could explain these things. Of course there are other possible explanations. The one thing here that would approach the characteristic tremor of Parkinson's as allowing a simple diagnosis, would be the "Iran is supplying al Qaeda" statement. I expressed a reasonable doubt as to whether that might be "merely" an intentional falsehood. But, if we exclude that possibility, I stand by the idea that this is such an elementary misstatement of basic facts, not opinions or high-order judgements, that it is like the Reagan comment about recalling ICBMs in mid-flight. Both of these notions are so at odds with the whole web of basic knowledge that we know that Reagan and McCain must have once had in their grasp, that being mistaken about them cannot be explained except as a true memory lacune, as opposed to the attention/concentration problem that might have kept a trivial side-fact from registering in the first place, or to the gradual loss of the memory of trivial side-facts that occurs in the normal shunting aside of old, no-longer-used, memories. This distinction between true memory lacunes and other forms of "memory loss" that people complain of is the symptom that allows dementia to be diagnosed clinically purely on the basis of the presence of even one such true lacune. The diagnosis can be reached in other ways when there are no true lacunes identified clinically, but it can be made as simply as I have done -- again with the caveat that the Iran-al Qaeda connection could be an intentional falsehood rather than the mistake that would make it a memory lacune.
Spicegal @ 67:
I couldn't agree more. Our country owes mcbush a debt of gratitude for what he suffered...but let's not call him a "hero", as the definition is totally beyond "surviving to talk about it".
Of course the repugs are going to have difficulty dealing with this, as they continually look back at Mr. Senility as their repug god....ronnie boy. They are so lost when it comes to reality or truth.
Glen Tomkins-
Thanks for your thoughtftul reply. I'm not the biggest fan of McCain, I just don't think the age issue is a winner for the Dems and I don't think Obama can use it effectively in light of the praise he heaped on Ronald Reagan a month or so ago. My mother died of Alzheimers; I believe you'd know it if he was in the early stages. I also believe either he or his wife or his doctors would not let him run for President if they thought he was in the early stages of dementia, or would be strongly advising against it. I apologize to you for the snarkiness- it's just that I've read too many posters here who make medical diagnoses from wishful thinking, like Bush's return to the bottle a year or so ago.
I'd be very curious though on your thoughts about Hillary Clinton's memory lapse regarding taking sniper fire in Tuzla. Intentional falsehood or memory lacune?
And his Vice President will be...........? How old?
10 REASONS MCCAINS AGE IS A GOOD THING......
1) if he is president we dont have to give him medicare or medical or Social Security
2) one less guy in the coupon line at the market
3) believes in EVOLUTION because he was there for it
4) believes in the BIBLE because he was there for it
5) believes in the easter bunny, tooth fairy, and santa,
6) remembers how to roll down a car window, play an 8-track, and unload ice from a truck
(never know when these skills will play an important part in america)
7) won't be fucking any internt he cant catch
8) brings back the george washington tradition of wooden teeth
9) gets the senior dinner at all state functions
10) can relate to all the baby boomers, so long as him memory holds out
PLEASE CONON, LETTERMAN, LENO.... IF YOU LIKE THIS USE IT, BUT A LITTLE CREDIT TO THE SOURCE!!!!!
dennis @ 95:
Never met a republican you couldn't support!?!
My beautiful mind can't handle the sight of ugly old people. Mccain's appearance is disturbing to my peace of mind. He certainly won't get my vote!
Dennis295? There are just a hell of a lot of reasons for Nancy to consider stepping down other than her age.... But ya know what?
I think you should take this up with Paul from L.A. He's a much bigger fan of Nancy at this point than I am.....JD
He's about the age of the television and newspaper owners. So they think they're helping elect one of their own.
Big Dick Cheney @ 104:
Pretty good, except EVOLUTION isn't something that happened a long, long time ago then stopped. Like McCain's integrity.
I think the media still thinks of McCain as the relatively vigorous candidate from the 2000 campaign, but the intervening eight years have taken a toll. It's not just the number of years... McCain is old for his age; he's 72 going on 80.
His speeches and statements lack energy, his response to questioning is listless and he doesn't think well on his feet. In short, the guy sounds like he's on meds. He makes Bob Dole look like JFK, and he's going to look even slower and older when pitted against a gifted, razor sharp campaigner like Obama.
The age issue is a non-issue. More vital are the issues on:
1) His obvious lack of economic policies/skill, 2) why we should ever dare to THINK about leaving our troops in Iraq for 100 years, let alone say so out loud, 3) Where did all the money stolen and wasted for the debacle in Iraq go?, 4) does he support no-bid contracts? 5) What is your plan for rebuilding America's crumbling (and deadly) infrastructures like highways and so forth? 6) What are you going to do about the falling dollar? 7) What is your plan for oil prices and how to combat it?
All of those issues (and more) are far more important to me that him being 72. Hell, my grandfather and grandmother could still whip my butt and cook dinner at the same time when they were 72 - and that's AFTER they took care of paperwork and toiled with farmwork all day! :)
There is another aspect to McCain that we can't talk about but my father spoke about it often during the first previous McCain presidential primary campaign. My father too was an Ex-POW. It was in the WWII European arena and only a little more than 2 years; not the depravity the POWs in the Pacific stage or the POWs in the Viet Nam war had to endure, but those years taught him plenty about humanity. He found ways of speaking about POW experiences with his family and friends that taught us enduring lessons. My father had no reluctance telling us that it would be unwise to entrust the government of a nation to someone who had experienced the physical and mental trauma McCain has, unless that person had worked through the post-traumatic stress and embraced the understanding of pacifism. The unpredicability of human responses to the visceral memory of personal horror is dangerous in powerful people. He thought of Nelson Mendala, a prisoner of conscience, a citizen without Geneva Convention protection, as a man who earned trust for government... but certainly not the warmongering McCain. McCain too easily sees an enemy instead of a human being; you can hear it in his retoric. The glimpses the press and Congressional peers give us about McCain anger issues only confirm my father's sense of the man.
Give the old fart a break. Pearl Harbor was bombed in December, after all. That means it was almost 1942.
McTurd is one hard sneeze away from a major stroke. We already had President 'ketchup is a vegetable' Ray-gun. Have we learned nothing?
His age right now isn't that big a deal to me.... he's obviously in control of his senses, and more than capable of doing the job and handling the stress.
Honestly, here's what I'm really thinking: When I'm 72, I HOPE that I 'll be retired, and be able to enojy my retirement with adequate savings to do everything I couldn't when I was a working stiff.
More than likely, I'll still be trying to make ends meet at 72.
My real question, to be asked of these people in politics or in Fortune 1000 leadership roles, who are over 65: why are you doing this? What's so horrible about your home life and your inner life and sense of worth that you can't accept your accomplishments, your already sizeable retirement savings, and ENJOY WHAT'S LEFT OF YOUR LIFE? I'd wager that if everyone who had "made it" by that age retired from public ad corporate life, and relaxed, those of us much younger and fighting for apiece would have a much easier time finding any retirement at all.
But that's just me.
Frank Schaeffer,
One of the founders along with his Father of the Religious right evangelical movement.
Speak's out on Obama's Preacher,
Frank Schaeffer,
"When Senator Obama's preacher thundered about racism and injustice Obama suffered smear-by-association.
But when my late father -- Religious Right leader Francis Schaeffer -- denounced America and even called
for the violent overthrow of the US government,
he was invited to lunch with presidents Ford, Reagan and Bush, Sr."
Frank Schaeffer walks right up to the accusation - that it is hypocritical and it is racist.
Jane Smiley writes in the Huffington Post
The Clintons are sucking up to Republicans
(spelling out similarities between Clinton and cheerleader-for-war McCain)?
Today we have a marriage of convenience between the right wing fundamentalists
who hate Obama, and the "progressive" Clintons who are playing the race card
through their own smear machine.
[The Clinton's] are, indeed, now part of the 'vast right wing conspiracy.
'
Both the far right Republicans and the stop-at-nothing Clintons are using the "scandal"
of Obama's preacher to undermine the first black American candidate with a serious shot
at the presidency. Funny thing is, the racist Clinton/Far Right smear machine proves
that Obama's minister had a valid point. There is plenty to yell about these days."
TALK TO ACTION (fullstory)
http://www.talk2action.org/story/2008/3/26/95523/3633
huffingtonpost (fullstory)
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jane-smiley/im-already-against-the- n_b_90628.html
dennis @ 102:
Networks
The people around him, insofar as they notice any problems stemming from his failing memory, would most likely think that the greater support from a network of aides and assistants that is available to a president, would be a good thing. Early on, when the lacunes are few and scattered, people can compensate for them very successfully, because memory is tied together in a sort of network, and people can find intact pieces of the network close to the lacune to ground themselves again. This process is helped greatly the more one is able to lean on family, friends and employees/associates to cover any lapses. I'm sure that the folks around Reagan rationalized his obvious difficulties with memory, with the idea that his role was to supply the vision, he wasn't a "details man", and he needed folks around him to fill in the blanks on the details to implement his visions.
As for his physicians, they would be the last to know that he had any memory problems. Even if you see your doctor quite often, that isn't nearly the exposure, and therefore chance to display a memory lacune, that family sees. And worse, patients are rarely confronted with the need to remember the sort of detail that clearly had to have registered (such as ICBMs being recallable, or Sunni and Shia radicals being on the same team) that a family member or close co-worker might notice. When people don't remember the six meds they've been on for a decade, there are many alternate explanations to dementia, the most common being that patients often don't take much responsibility for or interest in the details of their treatment, so you can't be sure that it ever registered in their memory that they are on the atenolol 50mg qd that their chart tells you that are on, as opposed to just remembering it as some little white pill. You can find a whole lot of dementia, by asking about things that you know had to have registered, if you go looking for it in folks who don't know what meds they're on, but since Aricept didn't pan out as a preventive of Alzheimer progression, there isn't any reason you would spend a good chunk of the limited time you have with a patient chasing that possiblility down, unless dementia is a specific caregiver concern. Someone like McCain labors under the further disadvantage of being subject to VIP medicine. His physicians would be likely to actively avoid considering dementia even in the face of evidence tending in that direction.
What happened with Hillary wasn't memory loss, but the addition of extra stuff that didn't actually happen, or didn't happen as claimed, on her arrival at Tuzla. Now, if my understranding is correct, that she claimed only to have landed under concern for sniper fire, not actual sniper fire, I suspect that this memory isn't a fabrication, but is simply the transference of a memory from another part of that trip to Bosnia, or someone else's trip to Bosnia at that time, that she misapplied to her arrival at Tuzla. I went into Bosnia for a few weeks soon after her visit. We were told on our arrival that they had only recently lifted the requirement to run from the plane to the terminal building, but still had to wear flak vest and helmet. At Camp Bedrock, where I spent most of my stay, the rule was that you couldn't leave post without a five-vehicle convoy, and had to wear flak vest and helmet on post whenever under open air. These precautions were ridiculously over-the-top, and so were often set aside for special occasions. What might have happened is that Hillary was first told that she would have to bolt for her convoy after leaving the airplane at Tuzla, but the plans were changed to ignore the security rules and allow the ceremony. She has since remembered these unimportant events in a way that is a bit off, and, surprise, surprise, makes the events, and her role in them, a little bit more dramatic. This was a Walter Mitty moment, not a senior moment.
People sometimes cite the similar, but much more flagrant, case of Reagan giving reporters a detailed account of his service on bombers over Europe during WWII, when he actually spent the war making training films in Hollywood (the details he recounted tracked closely a training film he had been involved in), as a confabulation demonstrating his dementia. I never accepted that idea, because the confabulations that dementia sufferers devise to cover for their lacunes are not usually that elaborate. Reagan's Walter Mitty recollections may have been facilitated by an overall web of memory of the war years that had become badly frayed, but I think that you couldn't say that in the absence of other evidence of his dementia, and you still have to invoke a need to make his life story more dramatic than it actually was in order to explain such an elaborate confabulation, and not just blame it on dementia.
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