Since McCain is running on his Military record...
By John Amato Sunday Mar 30, 2008 10:31pm...are we allowed to examine it? I'm not talking about a swiftboating, but actually take a look at his flight record as a pilot before Vietnam. Is that fair game? I'm just asking because the Media will report on what his campaign feeds them and call it the 'Re-branding of John McCain' or something like that instead of a political maneuver before the general election.
Here's the full text of the speech.
Matt hears a little dog whistle politics.
Update: Jane writes about his speech:
He goes on to admit that he was "surprised" by developments in Iraq. Kind of like Dick Cheney was "surprised" when we weren't greeted as liberators.
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If a "maverick" strays off the ranch, he needs to be "rebranded" to make sure he doesn't stray again, no?
We don't need to attack his service record.
We just need to point out how old he is.
If McSame has something in his military record that's unambiguously bad (or good), then it's fair game. It doesn't become Swift-boating to me until someone tries to connect dots to wage political war by implying something that probably isn't true.
However, under this RoE, it's unlikely that there's much to find. He's been in politics long enough that, if there were something, someone else would have found it. But you never know.
That was way too easy!
The guy was a P.O.W.; he has been conditioned to be agreeable to anyone that sways power over him. Just look how he kisses up to Chimpy!
Well, he flew A4s, which were ground attack aircraft.
So, the real question is: Who did he drop bombs & napalm on?
Personally, I see nothing heroic in what he did.
And given his long term cozy relationship with lobbyists, I see the main differences between him & Duke Cunningham is that Cunningham is a better pilot and McCain hasn't gotten caught yet.
McCain got shot down. In corporate America that would be a blemish on your job performance record. In politics if you're a Republican you can brag about it and use it in your campaign commercials. The Swiftboaters would come up with something like this if McCain were a Democrat: "John McCain, if he can't steer a plane out of harms way how can he steer America out of harms way".
No one seems to mention the fact FIVE aircraft piloted by McCain were damaged or destroyed during his service. The fact that his father was a Admiral probably had something to do with why they kept putting him into the cockpit.
Near the end of his stinking bravado he has the guts to make this remark: "A welfare check can’t give a parent a sense of purpose. And among the most important things children can inherit from their parents is a sense of purpose, and an aspiration to be part of something bigger than themselves."
Today, due to the failed policies of the Republican and Bush adminstration, 23 million Americans are on food stamps. The greatest amount since 1960 record keeping. Nah, a welfare check can't give a parent a sense of purpose, especially when that parent has lost his/her job, home, and income since the great Bush robbery took place. That's one helluva thing to say, but once again it shows where the Republicans are in the world of reality.
He was shot down and imprisoned, but he lost 2 other planes before that without being fired on . Being imprisoned makes him an expert on torture not military strategy. He makes noises about being against torture but voted against measures to make it illegal for the USA ... one of many examples of how his voting record does not match his public statements.
Here's my brother who didn't come home from Vietnam.
he got into flight school because of his daddy. another bush similarity.
Apparently John McCain crashed 3 planes in training, and that should have ended his piloting career, but his dad was the admiral.
Then his plane was accidentally shot in the Forrestal disaster, and he was shot down over Hanoi, That's 5 planes, that makes him an all American ace, 5 planes destroyed, all American.
Steve
Please God tell me this great blog is not going down this route. Please do not be Karl Rove. I cannot take it if I have to be disgusted by the left as well as the right.
There is a truck load of stuff to go after McSame about, so please dear god don't go down the Neo-con route! He is a supply sider, warmongering, middle class destroying flip flopping, anti-choicing SOB.
Why, oh why, would you all lower yourself to this when it is not even neccessary. If you all become them, I may have to go to Canada.
I don't think McCain should have started this "re introduce" himself campaign. Is this for the voters or himself? After all, every time you meet someone with Alzheimers don't you have to reintroduce yourself? It could also be called "this is who I am this week" since he flip flops around so much.
As for someone digging into his record before this, McCain had all records sealed. Why does a "hero" want his record a secret? His newest ad talks about his grandfather and father, both admirals, like that means anything. He never became an admiral. He crashed, what, 5 planes? He graduated 5th from the bottom of his class and questioned authority. Not exactly leadership qualities.
As far as his flip flop on torture goes I am undecided what his theory is.
Either he knows from first hand experience that you tell the truth when tortured, because he did so, therefore it is ok, or he just doesn't care because it makes him look tough. McCain's buddy, Graham told several times how they all watched the videos from Abu and they were nothing but rape after rape yet they still voted to allow bush to continue.
A former neighbor of mine was at the Naval Academy with McCain. This guy is a loopy neocon who hates everyone who doesn't believe exactly what he does, but he especially hates John McCain. A lot of it is sour grapes that someone who finished at the bottom of the class and who "fucked up and got his ass shot down" (his words) is a huge big shot, while he's just a bitter old man. McCain is best known for his time as a prisoner because that is the most remarkable thing he did in the military.
Alec Timmerman @ 14:
ByeBye!
TB @ 6:
THIS is the reality of what McWarhero did to who in vietnam
McCain made over 32 tapes for the Vietnamese. They are all classified and cannot be released.
His fellow prisoners said he cooperated and receive special treatment.
I say attack McCain at his strength and go after his service record.
ferrofluid @ 18:
pretty isnt it, do we really need somebody like this as our supreme leader and moral guardian! NO not in any sane world.
Guys, please. Dissing McCain's service is (a) mean-spirited and low and (b) won't work.
Some sh*t that sticks to Democrats just doesn't stick to Republicans. (e.g., whoring hypocrite Elliott Spitzer eats a dinner plate of crow as his last meal in office, while whoring hypocrite Vitter gets a standing "O" from his GOP colleagues. More to the point: decorated war hero John Kerry gets "Swift Boated," while the media at large shrugs off very valid questions about W's dodgy National Guard record.)
Don't attack the idea that McCain comes from a noble heritage. Show how he cravenly sold it out.
Show how he sold out every single one of his "maverick"* principles in his blindly ambitious, unprincipled drive for the Presidency.
Show how he betrayed our brave young servicemen and women with his reprehensible policies for Iraq.
* PS: Yes, I and everyone here knows that McCain's "maverick" tendencies are greatly exaggerated. But half his popularity comes from the idea that he's a "Republican with a difference." My Mom was a moderate McCain Republican in past years -- the same kind of voter who helped buoy McCain to success in the primaries, over the ordained standard-bearers like Giuliani and Romney. She has turned against McCain because she's seen him sell out all of the principles she thought he stood for. She perceives that he's no longer the guy she used to like. And right now -- I can't even believe I'm writing this -- she thinks she's going to vote for Obama. Seriously, my mind is blown.
McCain the Liar @ 19:
that film of him being interviewed and giving name rank number etc, the one used in his recent campaign video, treated well enough to be given cigarettes and allowed to smoke one during the bedside interrogation.
Definitely echos of his Vietnamese codename 'The Crown Prince'
This is a fairly well respected liberal blog. Do not ruin it by going down this path. It is one thing to look at his record for blemishes but do not question the man's integrity or his status as a war hero. He will not have my vote in november but there is no reason whatsoever to go down this road. Dem's should be able to handle McCain in the fall without this kind of garbage, he has given both Obama and Clinton the courtesy of running a clean campaign and they have honored that request. You will lose your credibility in the eyes of this reader.
Steve D @ 21:
Ojk how about how McCain obstructed the release of the files of the POWs and MIA files to their familys, is that low enough!
He seemed very keen in the 70s 80s to keep a lid on something, had something to hide by keeping those documents permanently closed from the public eye.
Maybe Nixon and the Republican admin at the time forgot to pay up the ransom so the MIAs were of no more value, and thus never got released !
Rob @ 23:
McCains connection to the forced eviction of the 25,000 Native Americans from their lands in the 90s to allow that mining company to strip mine their ancestral lands !
McCain the Liar @ 19:
Are you f'ing serious? The man REFUSED TO BE RELEASED until every single soldier captured before him was. He was given the opportunity to get out of there because his father was an admiral, he could have taken that and many people would not have questioned him. Yet he did not. There is no reason to attack him on that, are you that much of a bottom feeder that you will attack him on this front? Yet if someone criticizes your boy Obama they are shunned.
McCain has so many skeletons in his closet its laughable that anybody outside the DC beltway and the compliant MSM thinks hes electable or even worthy of being elected.
the question is- did his daddy cooperate with the vietnamese because they had his son.
Rob @ 26:
This isnt Redstate, McCain is the
enemyscumRob @ 23:
Koolaid is optional here, not everybody drinks it.
Alec Timmerman @ 14:
He works for Satan...Go to Canada, my son, and John McSatan'sMcMinion can go to hell!!
Sorry but I cannot go easy on any republican. I will always remember the republican convention handing out purple band-aids and calling them purple hearts. You can not get any lower than this. McCain is open season and I will not hesitate to show any weaknesses of this war-monger. McCain cooperated and received special treatment according to fellow POW's. Why not ask questions? Lets see him blow his top at reporters.
ferrofluid @ 29:
I'm not sure what redstate is and as I said in a post above I will never vote for McCain. However that doesn't mean I don't respect the man and think it's disgraceful to talk about stuff like this. Both my parents will be voting for him and I don't think he is a terrible alternative, I just think Obama or even Clinton are much much better candidates. Also why do you feel the need to call him scum? One of the reason's I visit this site is to have some political conversation, not some name calling free for all. If I want that, I'll just bring up politics with my friends.
Rob @ 23:
don't think for a minute that the gop will run a clean campaign. karl rove is advising mccain and karl doesn't do clean campaigns.
Reminder , besides MCcain there were thousands of guys in Vietnam and many ended up POW and MIA not to mention deceased . It's not about what or where he was 40 years ago , it's about his political record , where he's at and what he is TODAY ( and I don't think MCcain quite knows anymore ) . He is sure getting a lot of mileage out of this hero nonsense . My humble opinion .
And if McWarhero is so patriot and true red white and blue and uber tweety approved,
how does JC tolerate and let Chimpy the great AWOLer touch him or allow him to come within 20 feet of him.
This greatly puzzles me, Chimpy should be so untouchable and apostate to any Veteran or one who claims that mantle.
Rob @ 26:
No one said McCain had self-inflicted wounds (like the swiftboat assholes did to Kerry) and no body is making shit up about him, the truth is free game. Now ask your self why his records are sealed!
john @ 35:
he actions and behavior then reflect and shape his actions and behavior NOW.
I am perfectly willing to believe that McCain was just another 'silver spooned son' until his POW times,
then the rot set in due to the nasty experience and the actions needed to survive those times.
His congressional record and dealings with people speaks volumes on his character post mil career.
Let's all play the Republican game.
McCain surrendered to the Viet Cong.
He'll surrender to the terrorists.
Does America need a President that's a quitter.
Seems to me the best way to go is to assess the judgement of the candidates on the military issue of the day, namely Iraq.
We have one candidate who always knew that this war was a bad idea, one who wishes she knew then what she knows now, and McCain, who insists that the Iraq war was a bright idea, but poorly mismanaged by Bush.
The American voters need to make a decision whether the Iraq war was a bright idea, and use that as a guide in evaluating the candidates ability to evaluate future defense issues.
I don't think McCain has command experience.
I know some Nam vets, they said that he was considered a lame ass loser BECAUSE he was incompetent enough to get shot down in the first place.
Rob @ 23:
You are correct, my son. There is no question that he has no integrity, and his status as a McWarwhoro is undeniable.
You are again correct my son. You will be voting for the Democratic candidate, as will your whole family, if you know what's good for you!!
Do not blaspheme, sinner!!
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHA!!!!!!!!
I have spoken.
*Shakes head in dismay.*
1) Attacks from the left re: military credentials won't stick.
See: John Kerry's "Swift-Boating" vs. George W's dodgy Nat'l Guard Record. Kerry was left defending an admirable record, while Bush was able to spin the very valid questions into "Why are you attacking the brave folks in our Nat'l Guard?" Oh, and getting Dan Rather fired over that stupid memo.
2) The media will not cooperate in investigating claims about McCain's record. They have been too complicit in helping to build this legend.
3) This campaign season has already in part been about the public getting sick of Rovian "win by any means" strategies. Or maybe you've missed the subtext of all the Clinton campaign vs. Obama campaign feuds that have gone on across the blogosphere.
4) Contrary to popular opinion, "going negative" doesn't always work. Despite the impression you may get from watching the news, the Rev. Wright mess hasn't really dragged Obama down that much -- while Hillary's popularity has been hurt by the impression that she's going negative. (Poll numbers to come.)
Ron @ 11:
sorry about your brother ron!
NoBuddy @ 40:
He has limited command experience, he was given command of a small training squadron down in Florida for nearly two years after leaving hospital and before doing the navy congress liaison thing (congressional training for connected officers)
Leave nothing to chance, my anointed ones! Pull out all the
butt plugsstops! The truth is not a smear, my confused, well meaning children... You must defeat the forces of darkness!!I HAVE SPOKEN!!
MAKE IT SO!!
Alec Timmerman @ 14:
Are you trying to be funny or are you the most pathetic concern troll ever?
McCain was at the bottom of his class in flight school. Everything he did was to suck up to his old man. He was shot down over Hanoi in a Navy jet because of his incomparable ineptitude as a pilot. All his class mates thought of him as a screw up. Over Hanoi, when the first rounds were fired at him, he detonated the explosive charge on his ejection seat but forgot to pull the canopy back so he blasted through the plastic canopy. That is why both his arms are deformed. He would like everyone to believe it was because the Vietnamese treated him so poorly.
I don't respect Mccain, I know he is a warmonger that's all I need to know about him. Fuck his military record, he probably killed people. As someone said pure scum.
Lots to comment on. First, there's no doubt that McCAin will use his military "record" as part of his campaign bio. I remember asking a VFW guy in 2004 why he was supporting the Swiftobaters attacking Kerry. His reply was that Kerry was making it a major part of his campaign. Well, so is McCain, to date. Second, when getting into actual qualifications, the fact that he graduated so low in his academy class - and undoubtedly he would have been kicked out anyway had there not been two Admirals in the family, does point to his basic education. For what it's worth, of course. And, of course, there's the sorry fact that there's nothing heroic per se about being shot down or being a POW. Nor, of course, a pilot who crashed 5 airplanes (but, hey, the public bought the crap about Bush being an ace pilot, so....). Not when there are many many other veterans who were truly heroic on the battlefield itself. But I don't think we need, or should morally, go down the path of trying to publically emphasize the negatives in his military career. Unless, of course, McCain uses it to try and make an argument that he is qualified to be President because of it. I don't think he will explicitly. One can respond by saying that a POW/veteran deserves respect, but not anything in the political arena per se (and point out the Democratic Iraq war veterans who have been defeated in Republican districts).MCain's military bio is to play on the heart strings of mainly conservatives, the same
who wouldn't cut Kerry any slack, of course. The thing to stress is just what has McCain done after the service which makes him qualified. But that doesn't keep someone from making nasty posts on right-wing blog sites of course. Those guys deserve whatever we can give them.
Jelperman (et al.) :
Maybe you're the troll.
1.The dude got the crap beaten out of him for years. If you have evidence that speaks to the contrary of that, that's fine-fairgame. If not, you should just STFU.
2. Don't ever complain about how Kerry, Cleeland et al. are treated re: their service. YOU're just as bad, but to the left instead of the right.
3. I think Vietnam was an atrocity that should have never have happened, and I don't agree with what McCAin was doing, but I'm not going to start questioning people's service because I don't like them. We have plenty to go one with McCain - we shouldn't dirty our hands with this BS.
People who are SO sure that they're right that the end they desire justifies whatever means - remind you of anyone you know?
Why don't you call Whine-One-One while you're at it? The Republitards set the bar in 2004: they shit all over John Kerry's war record, even mocking the wounds he received in combat. Sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander, so I don't want to hear a goddamned peep from Republitards or concern trolls when MCCain gets a dose of Republitard medicine. There's one big difference: We don't have to lie like the Shit Boaters. In fact, we don't have to lie at all.
Harry Truman said it best:
"If the Republicans are going to lie about me, I have no choice but to tell the truth about them."
If John McCain's supporters insist he was tortured by the Vietnamese, let them prove it. Maybe they'd like to explain how someone who was allegedly a victim of torture would turn around and grant retroactive immunity to torturers. I find it hard to believe that a real torture victim would vote for amnesty for torturers, just as I find it hard to believe that a rape victim would ever vote for blanket immunity for rapists.
All right Girls...
Dave
Ron @ 11:
Very sorry about your loss. Even though it was so long ago, I know it's something that is nearly impossible to forget. My condolences.
.
I don't need to visit his flight records and stuff...
All's I need to know is that Senator McTORTURE was against the use of TORTURE BEFORE he was for it...
After all, he is the most qualified in the field of candidates to address the use of torture, how it feels, what it does to a person and how it leaves others at the mercy of their captors...
Oh, wait!
I just described America... NO?
All ruthless and vigilante and in your face criminal and such...
.
Q: What happens when, in presidential elections, you don't fight fire with fire?
A: You lose two of them in a row and may be working on losing a third.
I can only assume that the bleeding hearts on this blog who are SO concerned about besmirching McCain's military record are the same ones who told Kerry not to worry about the Swift Boat attacks. Shrummie, Brazile, is that you?
McCain is no more of a war "hero" than GWB was a "Top Gun," yet we let Bush get away with that s*it, and we'll let McCain get away with his because we're afwaid dat itty bitty MCain-sy-poo (the "war hero") would just shrivel up and die if we subjected his military record to any kind of serious scrutiny. And is it any wonder Democrats can't stand up to Republicans when it comes to important s*it, like getting out of Iraq?
Yes, McCain's military should be examined. In fact, it should be a requirement just like the past experiences of any other candidate. By making it seem off limits, the natural thinking for most people is: What is McCain hiding and what does he not want people to find in his military records?
I get it Jelperman. We're right, they're wrong, and we should feel free to do whatever we want in service of those facts. Nice. So what's the difference between you and the Republicans exactly? You're a Swift Boater (or at least a Swift Boater wannabe - does it get any lower than that?).
And this is all besides the point that this will never work. Among McCain's vulnerabilities are not that he was a POW, notwithstanding some truly Earth shattering revelation (which would of course be fair game).
Alec Timmerman @ 14:
a-friggin men to that. Watch out, though. I previously made similar comments, got into it with the mods about it, and got banned.
As another poster said, banning somebody is the new response to losing an argument on the internet...
Absolutely it is fair to check out McCain's flight record and military record.
Did his Daddy the Admiral have any help in getting him through flight school when others had no Admiral for a Daddy?
Exactly how long was John on ship in theater before his Hilton stay?
How many missions did he fly ?
No reason to make up dirt or slime. McCain provides his own true self and those flip flops of integrity.
McCain the Liar @ 19:
I say we torture you for about three seconds then se what you say!
I can't stand McCain but I just found someone to detest more.
previously banned @ 59:
Robt @ 60:
This is really some smart strategery by the folks who want to go after McCain's military record. First off you sound like a bunch of nincompoops who know nothing about aviation. Accidents, especially in the 50s and 60s alway claimed more aircraft and pilots then combat. The planes back then were giant engines with weapons strapped to them, no safety gear or computer controlled combustion. Second you saw what happened with Bush. That guys record was total crap and we couldn't make a dent in it....People Don't Care! People Don't Get It! All they understand is a picture of John Kerry with long hair looking like a doofus at the Winter Soldier hearings and they think "pussy".
Get a clue.
I would normally agree that a POW's record should be off limits but I have great respect for Hackworth's integrity (having once met him). He has since died but I am sure he would be active in getting this information out:
"David Hackworth, a retired Army colonel with five years' distinguished service in Vietnam who is a frequent commentator on military affairs on network television, is a longtime critic of McCain. He tells Insight that McCain's actions during the Senate Select Committee hearings were a "flash point" with a lot of veterans. "McCain should turn off his handlers," says Hackworth, "because he's presenting himself in a very poor light. I have read hundreds of letters and e-mails from members of the military and there's no question that there is a keen divide when it comes to McCain. There are many who challenge his conduct when he was a POW."
In 1991, explains Hackworth, "I interviewed Col. Bui Tin in Hanoi, who was presented to me as their authority on POW/MIA issues. In the course of the interview Tin told me that during the war he was involved in the imprisonment of American POWs. When I questioned him further he said that John McCain was a `special prisoner.' Tin later told other POWs that McCain never was tortured. So when McCain embraced Tin during the hearings it seemed to some Vietnam vets to confirm the reports they had heard, and it really angered a lot of people. It was no secret that McCain had admitted to giving information to the enemy. In fact, McCain was given the Silver Star for `conspicuous gallantry' for the time period of 27 Oct. to 8 Dec. 1967 -- one day after he was shot down and admits to having given information to the enemy. McCain is a survivor, not a hero, and I don't think anyone in the history of our nation has been awarded such high military awards for dealing with the enemy."
Charles Bates, director of Veterans for Government Accountability, a government watchdog group, tells Insight that "during a three-day seminar on the Vietnam War at the Center for Vietnam War Studies at Texas Tech University, I and another POW activist, Joe Jordan, spoke to Bui Tin about McCain's treatment in Hanoi. Tin said, `No, McCain was never tortured. He was too important. We called him the prince. He received special treatment.'"
The passion is strong among these veterans, and Bates gives no quarter: "When Tin testified at the 1992 hearings," he says, "McCain ran down to the floor and threw his arms around this guy. Everyone knew that this was the guy that had reportedly tortured him. Try and imagine someone from the Bataan death march throwing his arms around his captor. You can't. So this is why there is concern among veterans that he really may have collaborated with the enemy. I And there appears to be evidence that he did, including his own admissions in the May 14, 1973, U.S. News & World Report":
http://www.forandagainst.com/articles/McCain_s_Military_Record_Shows_He_...
please please please please please please please please please please please please please please please please please please please please please please please please please please please
JOHN "THE REPUBLICAN" MCCAIN has worked hard to earn this nickname...
In a recent story, his handlers are depicted as trying to keep his name and the party name apart..... NOT FAIR.....
IF YOU WANT TO HELP THE CAUSE.... NEVER NEVER NEVER REFER TO JM WITHOUT HIS FULL NAME
JOHN "THE REPUBLICAN" MCCAIN
GUILT...BY ASSOCIATION...... MAKE HIM WEAR IT LIKE A LAPEL PIN !!!!!!
JOHN "THE REPUBLICAN" MCCAIN IN THE MIDDLE EAST.....
SEE NILE.... SENILE....
IS A MAN WHO USES VIAGRA SO HE WONT ROLL OUT OF BED AT NIGHT BEHOLDING TO THE PHARMA INDUSTRY ?
HIS MIND, ONCE SHARP, IS GOING DOWN FASTER THAN MRS CHENEY ON PROM NIGHT
save him the humiliation of joining Ronny "where are my jellybeans" Reagan, and George Dubya "is our children learning" Bush, in the GOP hall of NUTZ... let him lose and get a nap
None of you ever learn. If you replaced the name "John McCain" with "John Kerry" or "Barack Obama", or the like, you would find an eerie level of similarity to Right-wing forums that you so vehemently decry... You just don't get it.
[[66 X Says]]: None of you ever learn. If you replaced the name “John McCain” with “John Kerry” or “Barack Obama”, or the like, you would find an eerie level of similarity to Right-wing forums that you so vehemently decry… You just don’t get it.
*===>>>No. We get it. What's your point?
steve @ 58:
I wholeheartedly disagree .......
While I'm not suggesting any 'shenanigans' , per se , there's a huge difference between Jelperman and all the others here who are questioning the legitimacy of McStupid's war record in comparison to the Swift Boat Liars for Shrub and how they smeared Kerry ; I see no one here advocating LYING about anything in referrence to McSenile.
The Swift Boat Liars follow that credo ?
I would ask: why not swiftboat McCain?
IndridCold @ 69:
Because lying is wrong and unnecessary ; especially if it's true that McMoron's military service isn't all it's been made out to be...........
Alec Timmerman @ 14:
"It is very, very easy not to be offended by a book. You just have to shut it."
--Salman Rushdie (Free the Word!)
You're allowed to examine it John. You're even allowed to twist the facts to suit your own personal agenda. Why should YOU be ANY different?
Your implications are no better than what some did to Kerry in 2004.
GOD @ 46:
The real issue about McCain's Vietnam experience is that as he sat inside of a prison cell for 5 years, he missed seeing the day-to-day futility of the war which Americans back home saw on their televisions each night. He stills thinks we could have 'won' that war and draws the same, deadly, conclusion about Iraq. WRONG!
Robert MacNamara's interview in "The Fog of War" film lays bare the false claims of 'victory just around the corner' that were made year after year in that fiasco. Don't let McCain and the Republicans repeat the same mistakes.
dennis @ 71:
Tell that to the Jesus freaks who insist on sticking a Bible in everyone's face .........
When did being taken prisoner by the enemy and surviving the torture and imprisonment make you a war hero? Many thousands of Americans endured far, far worse in Korea and WWII as well as Vietnam. I am not saying he wasn’t brave but how does that make you a hero? I respect his sacrifice but he is not a hero except in the ‘every one who serves’ is a hero (they too got shot at, many suffered terrible hardships and endure terrible agony from wounds – some that never fully healed – are they not hero’s simply for enduring the pain like he did?). A hero, in the military, generally has saved others and /or helped in a major way win a battle/war – which McCain did neither.
When the term is used for every one who suffered in any war, then what is a hero who fits the normal definition?
A super hero? Or should I say a hero who is really a hero but not the normal hero that the regular heroes are; or a hero’s hero or a hero that was formally known as a hero but is now known as a bigger hero with some extra words of praise to mark their hero status in a way that differs from a hero that does not have this status but is still a hero in the sense that all hero’s are hero’s except some hero’s are more heroic without reducing the importance’s of the hero’s that are hero’s that differ from hero’s that hero’s know are the hero’s that aren’t the hero’s we mean as hero’s but are truly hero’s in the way we mean without changing the meaning of hero’s relative to hero’s that we generally talk about.
Lets confuse the language and call McCain a hero – otherwise, I get a headache thinking about this stupid idea of calling a prisoner of war a hero simply for surviving the ordeal.
It should be noted that the above blog post link 'Matt hears a little dog whistle politics, that Matt Stoller, the author, later admitted that he was wrong on calling this a racist incident.
UPDATE: I was probably wrong on this incident, it doesn't look like a dogwhistle.
--Matt Stoller
I am a 65-year-old proud Vietnam draft resister, so you know where I am coming from. I have no respect for John McPain's war record. Had he been a person of conscience, he would have sat that one out. We had no business invading Vietnam. It was an undeclared war and yet another example of our all too eager penchant for meddling in the civil strife of other sovereign nations. Can you imagine the contempt and enduring mistrust we would have for France if, because of a fear that rebellion encourages disrespect for monarchies, that nation joined the British in fighting our revolutionary forefathers. Same principle.
John McPain was captured by the Viet Cong and tortured into confession. Why should we look at what the Viet Cong did as rotten and immoral and a disrespect of international law against such practices when our own country is doing the same things in its outlaw war against the Iraqis? Why should we feel that McPain is a hero when all he did was tell his captors our country was an imperialist nation that had invaded another sovereign country in the name of fighting communism? What right does one country that espouses a particular type of economic and political system have to violate the sovereignty of another nation with another, even diametrically opposite type of economic and political order?
What is so heroic about giving in to torture? Plenty of captives have resisted torture to the end. I will reserve my pride for them, not McPain. And, you know what, the Cong were right: Amerika was and is an imperialist nation that goes on invading the sovereignty of other nations. And by engaging the same sort of acts practiced on our troops by the Cong, we prove only that we are no better than they are for all our pretenses to democracy and good will. McPain was against waterboarding before he was for it. What a two-faced phony. Heroic? Bull. He's a disgrace.
Stay 5 million miles away from attacking his service. It is downright sleazy. If Dems start doing that I may feel the need to vote for him just out of protest. And then all that money I donated to Obama would be wasted.
Five and a half years as a prisoner and he was never able to escape. What a wimp. Seriously; I've seen Hogan's Heroes. It's not that hard.
(No, I'm not serious. It is April 1st.)
Alec Timmerman @ 14:
I would agree if he were not making his military record such a big deal in his campaigning, but he is. Anything a candidate puts out is fair game for scrutiny, including those three planes he crashed.
hueylong @ 79:
If McCrazy is going to run on his record as a pow, then his record is fair game. There have been serious questions about his time as a pow, like why are his records sealed and how much did his dad have to do with his service. If it only takes people asking questions about his service for you to vote for him, I think you may be snowing us about being a Obama supporter.
McCain is forced to run on his highly questionable 40-year-old military service because he has no ideas or plan for addressing the issues of today. I mean, he can't just say "let's napalm the mortgage crisis."
McCain has actively participated in the cover up of POWs left behind in Nam. There is plenty of documentation of this including specific bills that he undermined that would require further investigation into these prisoners. There is an excellent book that gives all the details including the specific bills he dumped in a book called You Are Being Lied To by Russ Kick. This book covers many deceptions about others, but has a whole chapter on the specifics of McCain's intervention in this issue. Most of the POW families hate him with a passion because of it.
On a more personal note, my uncle worked at McDill for many years in the Air Force and knew McCain personally. Although he has passed, I'll never forget a conversation I had with him back in the late 80s. At the time, I didn't think McCain was all that bad for a repub. My uncle told me he was a raging maniac with anyone that disagreed with him, and he was the last person you would live alone with your wife at a cocktail party. Apparently his womanizing was well known back then. And by the way, my uncle put in 35 years in the Air Force.
That's enough for me to know about McCain. The womanizing is incidental (except for the latest lady lobbist issue). The fact that he vigorously tried to hamper investigations into POWs is the meat of the issue. What a sorry sot.
Among the military awards McCain received according to his own bio is the Distinguished Flying Cross its equal is the Distinguished Service Cross. These awards are second to the Congressional Medal of Honor the highest medal awarded.
I have contacted various web sites,such as www.homeof heroes.com,where you can search the citations for the various awards,have mailed vet groups and no information on this obtained. The reason I am curious about this is my father received the Distinguished Service Cross in World War I for extraordinary heroism in action while serving with the 111th infantry Regiment near Chateau Thierry,France July 1,1918.
The criteria for the Distinguishd Flying Cross is awarded to any person who,while serving in any capacity with the Armed Forces of the UnitedStates,distinguished himself or herself by heroism or extraordinary achievement participating in aerial flight. The performance of the act of heroism must be evidenced by voluntary action above and beyond call of duty. The extraordinary achievement must have resulted in an accomplishment so exceptional and outstanding as to clearly set the individual apart from his/her comrades or from persona is similar circumstances.
Herk @ 85:
Mc Cain's military skills got him captured and held prisoner for many years.
There is no proof John McCain was ever tortured by the Vietnamese. No POW's ever remember him being mistreated and after the war the Vietnamese themselves said McCain was the exception and never tortured.
His fellow POW's remember McCain receiving special treatment.
Many unanswered questions about this but don't count on our media to ask any though.
Jay @ 62:
Jay @ 62:
People do care. People cared when Conservatives were told that Al Gore's service wasn't good enough. That it was of a pansy. Then of course we saw swift boating of John Kerry and they card. Now the media seemed to omit as much as possible that of George Bush.
So it might be a republican lie talking point for republicans to rally and run around smearing and repeating it as gospel. The Democratic side might have a little more to bitch slap back with in this arena.
Fact of the matter with McCain, after a couple of weeks in theater. He became a POW. He did not fight to his last bullet in his gun. He did not pull out his knife and fight to the end. He in fact "SURRENDERED".
That is how you become a POW. And the right wing still runs around decrying the left are CUT and running surrender monkeys. Yet Senator Hagel seems to be able to confront the "surrender rhetoric" of his own party.
I know, why make reason TOO challenging for most of these republicans? Let them run around and make pretend every day is April fools day.
The problem is there are those that will swallow GOP rhetoric if left unchallenged.
I would even ask the question, "Did McCain have extra consideration in the awarding process for his medals he recieved by his Admiral father?"
Apparently you seem effected by the GOP propaganda by this statement of yours where you say no one cares and then they don't get it right?
"....People Don't Care! People Don't Get It! All they understand is a picture of John Kerry with long hair looking like a doofus ".
Fact is McCain learned what about warfare as a POW?
He spent most of his time with the enemy?
It is troubling that a man that goes through captive torture first hand and it breaks him to say things they want him to say that aren't true. This same man of this experience Votes in FAVOR of torture...!?
Is that his party loyalty? Is that his true thoughts that we need to torture to get forced confessions as McCain himself confessed to "denouncing America"? He is not a POW now and he has used that all his career. When he voted for torture he displayed his lack of character by pander and GOP loyalty to become President. And be assured, McCain wants to be President of a GOP America and not all Americans.
tr @ 34:
The main reason that McCain was destroyed in the 2000 South Caroline primary and both Gore and Kerry were turned into figures of ridicule in the last two presidential elections is that Bush, Rove, and the RNC were willing to go deeper into the cesspool than their opponents. It is, in fact, their natural environment, and they are happiest operating at that level (and very successful at it).
Sticking to the Marquis of Queensbury rules when your opponent is eye-gouging, heat-butting, groin-kicking, and using brass knuckles is noble, and may give you (when you finally get wheeled out of the hospital) the dubious satisfaction that you were morally superior to your opponent. But, it was George W. Bush who has sat in the Oval Office for the past 7+ years tearing our nation, if not the world, into shreds, not Al Gore or John Kerry, or even John McCain.
Blue Sun's First Law of Conflict:
In any conflict, if it is to be won at all, it must be fought at the level of the party who sets the bar of ethics and morality at the lowest level.
As long as McCain is assembling the same cast of sleazy neocon advisors and revving up the right-wing smear machine, any Democrat who refuses to fight fire with fire will only end up as, in Al Gore's words, "the former next president of the United States."
I don't say make up lies or distort the record as the Republicans are so fond of doing, but at least recognize that ANY legitimate weakness in John McCain's record or character is fair game, and should be targeted and hammered into the ground.
Herk @ 85:
You're not saying that McCain got himself shot down, held prisoner, and tortured for five years voluntarily, are you?
He planned to sit in his cockpit, drop bombs and napalm on military and civilians alike in Hanoi, and then get back to base in time for five o'clock drinks with his buddies. He just didn't execute his plan so well, and ended up getting his state-of-the-art warplane shot down by NVA using, at best, old and obsolete anti-aircraft weapons donated by the Soviet Union.
Seems to me that the fact that his father was an Admiral and the military needed as many "heroes" as it could muster played a part. Kind of reminds me of the terrible conflict on Granada, where 15,000 American troops beat back 60 Cuban soldiers, 600 Cuban laborers, and the joke Granadian Army in a mere three days - and were awarded more than 15,000 medals for their glorious accomplishment.
BTW, coming on the day the Marines blown up in Lebanon were being buried at Arlington, Reagan's little excursion into Granada certainly did wonders to pre-empt theose terrible headlines with politically advantageous ones.
Every Medal of Valor has a citation with it that explains the the reason for the honor. Where is McCains citation that belongs with the Distinguished Flying Cross? Is it because none exists? If he is running on his military record time to set it straight. Talk is cheap.
Personally, I don't think anybody should be criticized on their Vietnam military record - particularly those that participated.
At this point, most people give that generation credit for serving and acceptance for not serving. Most, most Vietnam Veterans agree what happened in Vietnam should stay there.
I realize that if a person is running for political office, and their platform is based on their experience then that same person is a free target for criticism. At the same time, McCain has a valued point of view of what to do and what not to do..... its called experience.
Herk @ 92:
Herk, if and when, or if McCain ever threw that medal over a fence in protest of that war, or ever goes before Congress and testifies something to the effect that his fellow soldiers "had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages in fashion reminiscent of Genghis Khan, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the countryside of South Vietnam in addition to the normal ravage of war, and the normal and very particular ravaging which is done by the applied bombing power of this country"-then you will have a story.
Until then, though, you've got a lot of digging to do.
John McCain's experience as a war prisoner qualifies him for nothing except for having
fought another useless war and it shows.
dennis @ 94:
True. McCain would never have the courage or integrity to tell the truth, however painful it might be. He tends to take the easy way out of any situation.
Google - mccain + songbird
you'll see that he is no war hero.
What you want are his fitness reports, the military officers' equivalent of job performance evaluation, and I'm not sure those are available through the FOIA. They were considered pretty secure.
The other thing that may taint Teflon John's fitness reports is his Daddy's rank. McBush's superiors would be very aware of a flag officer lurking in the shadows who could strike by calling in a chit through the good old boy network.
His POW time will earn him lots of sympathy, but as K.Trout says qualifies him for nothing.
What I found truly funny is that he is already rewriting the Constitution by adding as a requirement for president, military service. Barack, says John, does not understand military culture because he's never been exposed to it. THAT, John baby, is a huge plus for Obama IMO.
And yes - I served willingly in the sixties. Even sat in the wardroom, so I know what John McCain's "experience" amounts to.
He did his duty - BFD - so did a whole pile of other equally unqualified men and women, myself included.
Good! Keep on his ass! Big Dan is moving to Canada, if McCain is the next president...
I've read 2 items about John McSame's military service #1 He graduated near the bottom of his class when he attended Annapolis and#2 He was a lousy pilot! As for his stint as a POW, McSame claims that his shoulders are fucked up because the North Vietnamese tortured him.For all anybody knows, he probably injured his upper torso as a result of ejecting from his aircraft at 500-600 knots per hour!McSame is the ONLY person I have ever heard talk of this"torture".I'd like to see some independent documentation to back up his claim!McSame also talks about honor! What can you say about anybody who pilots a jet plane loaded with high explosive bombs ,which he drops on innocent women and children, on a daily basis until he got blown out of the sky.Ride'em cowboy!
I've lived in Meridian for 37 years, my dad was career military, and I have NEVER heard that base referred to as "McCain Field" or heard of/known anything about the famous McCains being from anywhere around here, until this week. It's always called "NAS Meridian" by locals, anytime it's mentioned in the news, and even in our weather data. Now, I certainly know the civilian airport/National Guard base is "Key Field", named for the Key brothers who pioneered in-flight refueling there. Never heard anything about any McCains. Odd.
"I am a black criminal and I have performed the deeds of an air pirate. I almost died, and the Vietnamese people saved my life, thanks to the doctors."
John McCain 1968
Since McCain is running on his record…
Won't that scratch it?
Funny, he doesn't look like a hip-hopper to me.
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