The reviews are in
By Steve Benen Wednesday Apr 16, 2008 8:30amConsidering last night's debate, I’m not entirely unsympathetic to Charlie Gibson’s and George Stephanopoulos’ challenge. Clinton and Obama agree on most policy issues, so the hosts’ task was to focus on areas of disagreement in order to create some kind of television-worthy conflict. Regrettably, that’s precisely what Gibson and Stephanopoulos get paid to do.
But the result was as dull as it was pointless, with a discussion that tells us nothing about the candidates, their visions, or their ability to govern. E&P’s Greg Mitchell called it “perhaps the most embarrassing performance by the media in a major presidential debate in years.” The Washington Post’s Tom Shales called it “step downward for network news,” and noted that the moderators delivered “shoddy, despicable performances.” Will Bunch noted, “Quickly, a word to any and all of my fellow journalists who happen to read this open letter. This. Must . Stop.” Salon’s Walter Shapiro added:
This is the way it ends, not with a bang but a whimper. If Wednesday night’s fizzle in Philly was indeed the last debate of the Democratic primary season between Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton, it will be remembered for, well, not much of anything.
Broadcast to a prime-time network audience on ABC and devoid of a single policy question during its opening 50 minutes, the debate easily could have convinced the uninitiated that American politics has all the substance of a Beavis and Butt-Head marathon.
So, who won? I haven’t the foggiest idea, but I’m quite certain we all lost.
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Here's the big story from last evening the MSM missed:
Obama Endorsed by Leader of ‘Weather Underground’: Punxsutawney Phil!
The Hollow Men? Talk about linking the sublime to the ridiculous.
It's HILARIOUS that the media, both new and old, are in such an uproar over the debate. Clearly, it's due to the fact that aren't used to seeing Obama receive any level of serious scrutiny.
Snap outta it!
I say it's about time the media stopped coddling The Precious!
Gee Steve, what flavor is the kool-aid?
Strange how all the OFB types think the debate stunk. They were'nt so outraged when Hillary was getting piled on.
It was Obama that stunk, not ABC or the debate.
BTW - If it was so "dull" why are the fanboiz flooding ABC with hysterical complaints?
I can't even watch the theater of the absurd. I'm serious, it's so absurd and plastic it is sickening.
I am waiting for questions from working people, real people...and did I miss anyone saying Stepho shouldn't involved be involved with anything to do with Clinton?
Wasn't he a part of her husbands administration?
Way to crash and burn Sinclair Corporation, your mediocrity knows no bounds!
this was Basic Instinct 2.
So JoeHix and MyIQsux, please tell us in detail what important questions were asked of Obama? We all really would like to know what is important to you. Lapel pins? Check. Bowling skills? Check. Gala vs Red Delicious? Check.
Hey, those are great criteria for running a country.
Look, it's not that one or the other candidate was not asked "unfair" questions, it's not NO pertinent questions were asked of anyone.
I like Beavis and Butthead marathons.
How about asking the duo to comment on current affairs? China/Tibet/Olympics, the American Airlines thing, etc.
Or, while they have re-hashed the questions on positions a few times, how about get into actual specifics regarding proposed policy? They're not exactly the same on all issues -- yes, very similar, but at the very least they could have highlighted the differences.
Instead, all we've ever heard during debates is a macro level policy review e.g. "I have an alternative energy plan in place, where I will put $150 million toward development of alt. energy. And I plan to increase gas mileage by 2013." But how about some actual specifics on these issues?
The flood of complaints to ABC isn't because Obama was piled on as some knuckleheads would have you believe...it was because voters are smarter than the networks give credit. We want to see a discussion of the ISSUES, not a parade of who can get caught in a GOTCHA moment.
That debate demonstrated everything wrong about the public conduct of contempory American politics. The Republicans had a few like that too, when Ron Paul was the only person in the room talking about any kind of reality and the panels were out to lunch.
OK, so the media, the general public, corporations, and the people who run for office are all broken and dysfunctional...what now?
As if anyone expected better from the CorporateMSM. They're only interested in the $tatu$ quo. They want a rich, white, business-loving, white man to continue to give them a free ride. McSame's their boy and they will do anything to stop any meaningful debate or meaningful change in this country.
Who won? I live in Korea which means the debate was on at 9 this morning. I decided to sleep in though instead of getting up to listen to it, which means I won!
Don Davis @ 1:
That's rich! Thanks for the humor. To the writer of this post (Steve), I will say, unequivocally, that I'm unsympathetic to the moderators. Sure, ratings are important, but so is democracy, and choosing the candidate that is best able to lead the democratic party and potentially the US. They could have chosen the high road, but they decided to be the sounding board for the fringe right-wing cheerleaders of divisiveness--Rush and Hannity. I can't wait to turn on Hannity's radio show today to hear his delightful glee of a "mission accomplished". Another right-wing talking point has been inserted into the main stream media. Job well done good and faithful servant...
ABC is the biggest loser!
David Brooks nails it:
Is it ABC's fault the Dems looked bad?
No Whining About the Media
...Obama and Clinton were completely irresponsible. As the first President Bush discovered, it is simply irresponsible statesmanship (and stupid politics) to make blanket pledges to win votes. Both candidates did that on vital issues. ... Both promised to not raise taxes on those making less than $200,000 or $250,000 a year. They both just emasculated their domestic programs. Returning the rich to their Clinton-era tax rates will yield, at best, $40 billion a year in revenue. It’s impossible to fund a health care plan, let alone anything else, with that kind of money. The consequences are clear: if elected they will have to break their pledge, and thus destroy their credibility, or run a minimalist administration.
...The second pledge was just as bad. Nobody knows what the situation in Iraq will be like. To pledge an automatic withdrawal is just insane. A mature politician would’ve been honest and said: I fully intend to withdraw, but I want to know what the reality is at that moment.
....
Final grades:
ABC: A
Clinton: B
Obama: D+
Memo to David Brooks: Don't read the blogs today.
marbotty @ 10:
Are you sure you want to go there?
Hillary always kicks ass on policy questions.
I didn't get the chance to catch the debates and from the looks of the responses I didn't miss much. Let me take a wild guess. All of the "debating" revolved around Rev. Wright, Clinton's sniper moment and the like right? Boy, debates have changed I guess. They seem to be turning into episodes of "This is your Life" than an actual debate to decide who presents themselves as the best leader for the country.
Today on his early morning train wreck, Joe Scarborough and his two minions Mika and Willie, did everything they could to say Obama got destroyed by Hillary in the debate. All while Joe was spewing how awful Obama performed, the caption below scrolled a poll by MSNBC immediately after the debate that had Obama WINNING the debate 78% to 22%!
ABC - the infotainment division of Disney
Simple as that...
I didn't even bother watching, because I knew the crap the 'ABC moderators' were going to fling...
ABC obviously thinks the voters of Pennsylvania only care about gaffes, guilt by associaton and lapel pins.
It's all about insinuations... and circus.
"he's black and has a foreign name and he lived overseas... why doesn't he wear a pin?"
"he's black and has a foreign name and he associated with these other scary black people... is he scary too?"
"she's a liar, isn't she?... I mean look at that Bosnia thing"
"let's get her on the spot about whether the black guy is electable"
The real issues facing Pennsylvania and the country take a back seat to the innuendo-laden "trap" questions.
Panem et Circenses... have you seen the price of Panem lately?
JoeCHI @ 3:
Um, we still haven't seen any "serious" scrutiny. This was about as unserious as a debate could get.
When you look at the future of the environment and the state of the US Economy, we're like a car about to plunge off a cliff. But questions posed by ABC (that you seemingly approve of) are like asking about the last time the car was washed, or the music that the driver chose to listen to once.
I think most Obama supporters, nay most reasonable people, are a bit more concerned about applying the brakes and turning the car around.
By the way, I think making comparisons of this so called Democratic "debate" to a Beavis and Butt-Head marathon is incorrect. I think it would be better to compare Beavis and Butt-Head to a George Bush State of the Union speech.
The moderators insulted the American people and our intellect last night.
myiq2xu @ 18:
Of course I fucking want to go there. It's the goddamn presidency! If you're not voting on somebody's stance on the issues, you aren't fit to vote. It's not about somebody's hair or somebody's flag pin or somebody's pantsuit.
This is my note to the "Public Editor" of the New York Times. I urge you to do the same.
Mr. Hoyt,
I watched the debate and read the front page article in the Times describing the event.
Within the first four paragraphs of the article I read, "...and his association with onetime radicals from the 1960s," and "...and his association in Chicago with former members of the Weather Underground, a radical group that carried out bombings in the 1960s that were intended to incite the overthrow of the government." (Emphasis mine) Considering how newspapers are read, one can reasonably expect that many readers will take away an impression of the allegations quite different from what was really said and what may only be a tennuous connection to 1 (one) individual, considering what some suggest and Senator Obama contends.
I know that The Times has endorsed Senator Clinton, but it troubles me to think that two (2) reporters could not get this one (1) fact straight, in a news article!. I have chosen Senator Obama in this contest, and no doubt my sensitivity to the issue is informed by that fact, still, it worries me more than how it affects "my" candidate that at the foundation of many of the problems that afflict our politcal system lies the erosion of confidence in our sources of news and information. Here is an example that helps to illustrate why this is so. This erosion does not explain all of the problems, but it is fundamental.
Respectfully,
O Antonio Reyes
Weston, Florida
dennis @ 17:
Wow Dennis, you conduct polls now. Predictably Obama always gets the worst grading in your very credible and scientific poll. Just like O'Reilly, Hannity and Scarborough, it is so simple and easy to see your bias because of your anger and bitterness towards Obama. LOL.
I think there is one solution to the travesty we witnessed last night: NPR. I think candidates should avoid debate venues that rely on conflict, sensationalism, ratings, and profit to make their pitch. NPR would be a more balanced medium for the candidates to express their views, and the hosts wouldn't be under such pressure to frame questions from a right-wing perspective, or play "gotcha" politics.
The time has come to end commercial debate formats, unless you thought last nights debate was substantive and topical that is...
I watched the first 10 minutes of the stream. Total waste of time.
Let's face it, The Media is ALL about the Media. Good Reporting has flown the coup.
Instead it's all about the stockholders of the Corporate Media.
The Truth, oh, that silly thing?
Reuters is reporting all the same, media manufactured items as somehow they are news.
I have been on the fence but Obama calling bullsh!t on the media just won him my vote in November. ABC news you suck.
Canada, please invade us.
I saw just a bit of the debate last night online here, and I had this great fantasy of Clinton and Obama stranded on a desert island together for a month, having a double epiphany, getting rescued, and coming home to TEAM UP and Kick some McASS!
I have a dream too, ya know.
marbotty @ 26:
Obama's standard answer to policy questions: "What Hillary said."
Can I give John McCain his donut now?
ysbaddaden @ 32:
LOL !
27 Antonio Reyes Says: This is my note to the “Public Editor” of the New York Times. I urge you to do the same.
Mr. Hoyt,
I watched the debate and read the front page article in the Times describing the event.
Within the first four paragraphs of the article I read, “…and his association with onetime radicals from the 1960s,” and “…and his association in Chicago with former members of the Weather Underground, a radical group...1960s that were intended to incite the overthrow of the government.”
Didn't boosh's grandpappy also try to overthrow the government?
"Senator Clinton, are you multi-orgasmic?"
michael grace @ 35:
Is that the donut hemorrhoid sufferers sit on?
kaypicts @ 31:
What are you going to do if he's not on the ballot in November?
I find it amusing that immediately after every debate, speech, scandal, or other incident, no matter whether it involves Obama, Hillary or both, someone always proclaims they were undecided (or supporting Hillary) but now they have decided to switch to Obama.
It's soooo predictable.
ysbaddaden @ 38:
........."only when I'm alone".................."Oh crap! Is this mic. on?"
This country is so screwed. Not because this kind of debate happens (that is expected) but because so many people find nothing wrong with it. I think intelligent people are the minority in the US.
Bring back the League of Women Voters-run debates!!!!! Those are filled with substantive questions and don't pander to the candidates OR the audience. What an utter failure the various anchors are at asking questions -- they don't even know the issues, being so focused on shallow external dribs and drabs.
America REALLY deserves better than this garbage.
It's shocking to see that how greedy Hilary Clinton can be. She'd rather fight hard now, just so she can loose in the fall. The Republicans must be loving all the sound bites she is cranking out right now, plenty of time to get ready for this fall. Way to go Hilary, keep that party divide against itself for your personal & financial gain!
you know who won? mccain won. that half-wit is skipping thru the process just like the doofus in chief we have now.
Truly awful. They dredged up all the right-wing talking point for almost an hour.
Unsurprisingly, the candidates did their best to sound just like Republicans.
If I hear them applaud hunters and hunting one more time, I'm going to puke.
Barack even caved on the flag pin issue.
Unbelievable!
There is absolutely no longer any doubt in my mind - this country is a solidly right-wing country, the media is right-wing to the core, and the candidates will do almost anything in their power to cater to right-wing interests. The rest of us can go fuck ourselves.
I don't just blame the media for last night, I blame the candidates for selling out.
We will never have a better country if they don't stop caving to the right!
JoeCHI @ 3:
LOL. And remind me again what kind of scrutiny St. John McCain has received?
"Senator Obama, how long is it?"
Question for the Candidates.
How would you use President George W Bush, once you are the President?
Answer:
I'd make him the Ambassador to Iraq.
Since he gave them their freedom, he could continue to ensure that democracy can take hold in the middle east.
Outraged over abc "news" Stephanopoulos and Gibson's pitiful performance last night?
Call, write, email and FAX them:
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And BTW - DNFTT
Left&Left @ 28:
Left and Left-
PLEASE don't take this as condescending, but that was David Brooks' grading, not mine. It wasn't a poll, and it was not meant to be interpreted as scientific.
His grading is about as scientific as the MSNBC poll you cling to as redemption for Obama.
recalculating... @ 45:
Actually, I think another debate is in order and it will be very entertaining to watch. A debate between the present John McCain and a past video taped John McCain totally contradicting himself will draw a lot of viewers.
So if they bitter will vote for Obama, and the bitchy for Hillary, who left for the rest of us who are resonably sane?
NARF!
Re: Retarded question from Pennsylvania women who brought up flag pins.
The Navy doesn't wear flags on their uniforms. So, your statement is incorrect. Also, STFU about stupid garbage. We have actual problems in this country. I would think someone so "patriotic" would care about the fact that our president approved torture.
The circularity of "the American people are too stupid for policy, so give them BS-- because all we give them is BS, which makes them too darn stupid to understand policy questions" should insult even the thickest republicist out there. I mean, if one is watching a debate, then one probably has an interest in an actual policy discussion. The disinterested masses have the Americans, idol and gladiators (glad 'e ate 'er?) to keep them out of trouble. Give us information, clowns.
if the candidates truly want debates then bring back The League of Women Voters, minus all the restrictions they put on them.....the nonsense "debates" you have been watching are nothing more than "tyalking points'" central.......
So where was Peter Doocy to ask questions of the candidates?
myiq2xu @ 4:
I am an OFB type (barack f***in obama?)....I agree that obama was unimpressive yesterday, but I think the harsh criticism of abc is fair and objective....they piled on, as you say...he seemed to be a little flustered until late in the debate...
there were no questions about mark penn, columbia trade, income taxes, clinton library donors.....but yet they harped on every frivolous charge against obama...
i'd give you that she won the debate....
too bad she's already lost the primary, and all this effort to undermine obama will do nothing but help mccain....
so she can win every debate, rigged or un-rigged, from now until august, but it means nothing and can do nothing in regard to her winning the nomination, and democrats winning in november... (although sometimes i do feel it's good training for obama....maybe when he debates mccain he won't get flustered by getting piled on and slammed.....maybe he'll learn to say "charlie, first let me say that's a silly question that most americans don't consider important, but i'll answer you anyways..."
myiq2xu @ 40:
Good point. Hillary is forcing him to tack further left and he is obliging her. If he wins the nomination, he will have a LONG way to go to get back to middle ground. And a LOT of pissed off people that he's got to hope will forgive and forget.
Joe O. @ 52:
......
and I may add, do not confuse being ignored for getting a free pass. Ask any lifelong class clown, being ignored is worse than getting a free pass. In fact, sometimes you don't realize your being ignored until it is too late.
"I’m not entirely unsympathetic to Charlie ibson’s and George Stephanopoulos’ challenge"????????
The idea of being a journalist is to illuminate the viewer on how these candidates differ. Had they done any research at all, I'm sure they could have found many differences between the two candidates... and even if there weren't, doesn't that also say something the American voter should know? Yes, two people agreeing doesn't make for exciting viewing or huge ratings. Had the mainstream media really wanted to have different opinions, they would have invited Kucinich to his last debate. (Shame on Clinton and Obama for not standing up for him.) To not be anything but outraged at this horrible tabloid journalism approach to the presidential debate is hard to imagine.
Anyone who thinks the Presidential debates are best when conducted as mud wrestling really does not quite get what is at stake and i probably will never convince them that public lynchings are not actually a form of entertainment.
Which sounds better?...the McCain Prophecies or the McCain Diaries.
I'm consistently astonished that anyone considers Charlie Gibson a respectable veteran newsman. I used to have to watch him when I worked in local TV news and the guy is the very definition of empty suit. He has no knowledge of his own.
I suspect most Americans aren't so much "right-wing" as they are "powerless to prevent the right-wing PTBs from manipulating everything." This campaign in particular highlights the way the GOP and MSM machines, working in parallel, cull each Unacceptably Liberal Candidate from the herd, each time declaring the increasingly-less-liberal remaining candidates to be the very embodiment of Marx. It was Kucinich, then it was Edwards, now it's Obama, and when Hillary secures the nomination (pissing off lots of Democratic voters, which benefits everybody), it'll be her.
dennis @ 59:
Why the hell would we want him to be in the "middle ground"? What is wrong with being a liberal??? I thought this was a site for the "left"? Are you admitting that Hillary is just another centrist? Because we sure need more of those, not. How about someone relatively to the left of the status quo for some balance. I say relatively because Obama is in reality also a centrist. We have no left in this country, and you are saying we need our political candidates to move further to the right? Jeez, this country is stupid.
dmhlt @ 50:
Call them all you want, they love it. No matter whether you love them or hate them, it equals the all important "ratings"
Might as well complain about Howard Stern.
The debate was stuuuuuuuupid! Anyone who thought that was a debate is crazy.
Why not ask about Corruption?
Why not ask about if Bush and his administration commited crimes will justice be persued?
There are a lot of good questions that needed to be answered.
Bush has just hired these lying ABC idiots to design his lieberry...facts are just futile.
DC @ 67:
They don't care because they are too busy cheering that their "team" won. They can't step back and see that in reality our democracy lost.
I thought it was an amazing coincidence that Hillary had all that material ready about that Ayers fellow. Also, why was she given time to respond? The question had absolutely nothing to do with her. And I'm sure Stephanopolis wasn't in the bag for her.
When can we stop being "fair" to both candidates and report what actually happened? ABC tried to set Obama up last night, plain and simple. Even Tom Shales saw it.
P.S. it isn't the job of a debate moderator to "create conflict", it's their job to moderate a debate. If the candidates don't get into a shouting match, then oh well too bad. It's not the job of the moderator to needle the candidates, or bait them with questions based on rumor and innuendo.
Mike @ 60:
I'm a lifelong class clown.
navyswan @ 65:
If he wins the nomination and he wants to win the Presidency, yes, I am saying he will have to move closer to the middle. That's politics.The rest of the country isn't like you, navyswan.
And flags and lapel pins ARE important to a lot of voters he will need. That's why he's wearing one now.
recalculating... @ 45:
That is so sadly true. Just goes to show we need to wrap this up post-haste. I don't care who does it, just pick your mouth piece and turn it on Mccain. Better yet, I once heard it proposed on here that one great way for the Dem candidates to face each other is to try and outdo each other on who can better hit Mccain. Show how effectively you can fight him and you show how good of a nominee you would be.
I'd also like to see substantive debates where candidates are not allowed to replace the questions asked with their own questions that instead give them an "out" for not facing the original question. I'd like the moderators to thank the candidates for their answer to the unasked question and return to the one that WAS asked.
I'd like the candidates to be given reasonable time limits, without interruption, to fully answer questions. IOW, actual debates on the issues
dennis @ 72:
Then "a lot of voters" are ignorant, petty, dolts. But, let's cheer own our own downfall into ignorance.
How about when Hillary linked Barack with Hamas?
The Liebermann thinks McCain was the clear winner, fer sure, fer sure.
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I think the debate did at least allow Obama to clarify his capital gain tax increase proposal -- that the main purpose is to promote fairness even if tax revenues go down when capital gains tax rates go up.
Hey Folks all things considered I thought Obama came off rather well. I remained cool under the one sided attacks
and gave as good as he got without sounding "bitter or pissed" as McCain or Hillary have shown in the past under the same scrutiny.
Which is a good trait for a Leader to have.
ysbaddaden @ 38:
Only with my vibrating egg.
And flags and lapel pins ARE important to a lot of voters he will need.
Crock of shit.
Obama's Sea of Youngsters don't do lapel pins.
bobswire @ 78:
Man, talk about projection. I meant he reamained cool not I remained cool. Hell,I was pissed and bitter...
George Steph seemed to be an unwitting tool used by Hannity. I seriously wonder if Gibson and George are trolls. ABC is known to have a huge right wing streak. Remember the clinton hit job when they blamed 911 on him? The media is in the hands of the propagandists. Whenever one sees a reporter in the street. They should remind the reporter in the strictest of terms of what their duty is. We are bewing turned to mush by theses forces. Push back. Confront the MSM on the streets.
ysbaddaden @ 32:
love it.
myiq2xu @ 34:
Their policy issues are very similar, except Hillary was wrong, and consistently wrong, on the biggest foreign policy blunder of the 21st century. And then she followed up it with an irresponsible vote for the Kyl-Lieberman amendment.
Although if you can find an instance where Obama said verbatim "What Hillary said" then I will grant you that he probably failed to win on that particular question.
stephanopoulos and gibson are nothing but PUNK ASS BITCHES. THEY HAVE SOLD THERE SOUL YEARS AGO. Where was ANY questions about what is going on NOW. gibson YOU are nothing but a pile of repub SHIT. did you get your 30 pices of silver.
Tom Shales has probably one of the only good takes so far in the mainstream papers (I've shunned the idiot box for now until this blows over).
But the sad thing is that, out of all places, the only cogent critque I've found on a non-blog comes from the WaPo's STYLE COLUMN. WHY?!
bobswire @ 81:
for a second i thought obama had seen fit to visit our humble little message board.
I am sick of hearing about flag lapel pins. Aren't they made in China? Some people try to avoid buying anything made in China. What a farce that debate was.
GFB @ 85:
Don't they know that the Pope is in town and they should try to be honest at least for a day.
Whenever I see an Old Glory lapel pin, I consider purchasing a firearm.
but i did have to cheer on barack when he chided george about bringing up the b.s. continually... "... this is what i'm talking about..."
just another rehash of b.s. gotcha attempts...
I find it hard to believe that Stephanapolous would be considered impartial since he was first hired by Bill Clinton. He owes everything to Bill and, unlike a certain former New Mexico Governor, apparently feels the need to kowtow to his wife as well.
GFB @ 85:
30 pieces of silver is a bad metaphor considering that's what Judas was paid to betray Jesus, and since reichwingers say BO's supporters see him as a messianic figure...
I'm glad I missed it and from what I've seen and read, I didn't miss anything except a rehash of all the non-issues of the campaign. Did they ask Hillary about Monica Lewinsky too? What a sad day.
My guess is that both candidates know these so-called debates are worthless and both of them were playing it safe.
"American politics has all the substance of a Beavis and Butt-Head marathon."
beavis and butt-head however, i've always liked.
our national 'ship' just hit an iceberg and is sinking.
we're looking at the deckchairs, as if arranging and rearranging them will save us.
barack obama is calmly showing us where the LIFEBOATS are and to quickly get to them.
hillary clinton is in the captain's quarters knocking back 'shots' waiting for us to crawl to her for a way out.
bush and cheney have been heard saying:"the water is bone-chilling, but if they swim for it, i give them 1 chance in 3, what do you wager, maverick?"
just another waste of valuble time in this 'sill season.'
dennis @ 72:
I must have missed something but I didn't see anyone wearing a stupid flag pin, and my god that is something that is really important. NOT...
Crush @ 92:
yeah, that was pretty astonishing...not even a disclaimer....
there was a time when the appearance of a conflict of interest would require an honest person to recuse himself....nowadays the existence of one doesn't seem to matter....
my bubble was burst on this when i learned about supreme court justices accepting gifts from people..
http://atheism.about.com/b/2005/01/08/justice-thomas-getting-wealth-of-g...
serpico wouldn't even let deli-owners give him a free lunch...
sassafra @ 96:
Which one is Beavis Gibson or Stef?
ysbaddaden @ 57:
He did'nt have to be there. George asked the questions given to him by Sean Hannity
...and the silly season, too!
Once again dems look as dumb as a fence post. Hillary using repug talking points, Obama looking like he would rather be anywhere but there. the msm asking questions that nobody with a IQ above 10 cares about and bloggers arguing over who won. This is why dems don't win. By the time the general election rolls around, they have already defeated themselves. McCrazy can just sit back and wait.
I didn't think it was possible, but Charlie Gibson and Georgie Boy actually made the Cnn and Msnbc debates look almost ok.
diamondmc @ 98:
Issues lapel pins are critically important to people like dennis when it comes to selecting a president. Without superficial inanities like pins they would be forced to think about issues or the candidates personal and voting history and that, my friends, is way too much like work.
Peter G @ 105:
Dumb crap like lapel pins, Rev. Wright, calling bitter folks bitter, are significant to people like Dennis because his candidates Hillary=McFraud lose on the relative issues. They've got nothing come November.
The reason Obama doesn't wear a stupid pin is probably because the flag lapel pin has become a Neo-con symbol. The fact that Hannity and his followers get their panties in a bunch over it proves it.
Bush and Cheney always wear their pins... they are soooooo patriotic. Every time they wipe their ass with the Constitution or give the oil companies a tax break they look down at their lapel pins and whistle the Star Spangled Banner.
"Beavis and Butt-Head marathon." Perfect.
myiq2xu @ 40:
To answer your question, I'll decide that in November. And I'm happy to amuse you. I voted for Kucinich, then Edwards because respect candidates who thinks for themselves, and not those in the pocket of business. I read you post and thanks for the eyeball roll you add at the end.
didn't Stephanopoulos get his start as Big Bird's friend on Sesame Street?
mike @ 83:
I've already promised Canada several bordering states, for a lifetime supply of Molson XXX.
Oh come ON Benen.. "because they agree ....the hosts’ task was to focus on areas of disagreement"?
What about focusing on world issues --where they disagree a lot! And then pick substantive issues "of disagreement" instead of bullshit and gossip?? Or do Gibson and Steph take the Bush attitude of " F*** substance and F***the rest of the world?
Like this big f***ing disagreement on one of dozens of world issues: Do you know what's going on next month -in the rest of the world and here at home under the radar? Anyone in the media?
A Cluster Munitions Treaty involving more than 100 nations that seek to ban the use of cluster bombs has been in the works for some time now and will be decided on in 5 weeks in Dublin. And Bush and friends are secretly strong-arming as many of the 100 nations as they can threaten -not to participate. They're stooping so low as to threaten food aid to South Africa. It's not surprising then to find Britain and the Netherlands joining with the Bush view.
This is a real issue where the two candidates DO NOT AGREE. And the fact that the media has never - and likely will never bring the subject up is very telling in of itself. Senator Diane Feinstein in late summer of 2006 tried to offer legislation to do a similar thing - just to place a moratorium on their use not ban them outright, and, only in civilian areas..
The bill was defeated when Senator Hillary Clinton and a few other Dems joined with all of the Republicans to kee using them - knowing full well these toylike bomblets stay in the soil for decades, like little land mines, and target children..
Barack Obama was with the majority of Democrats and Senator Feinstein to ban their use - to protect innocent victims.
We know who's better for America, and the rest of the world. So in the spirit of the Bush Administration whom the media so cater to I say back at you boys and "F*** the media"</strong>.
Joe O. @ 24:
How dare you demean and disrespect Beavis and Butt-Head in this way. Good day, sir. I said good day!
Heres what i hope to see in a week: Hillary clintons concession speech. If I were her this is what I would write. Last night I looked at myself. I watched a tape of my performance in the April 17th debate and did not recognize the woman I was watching. I couldn't believe the things coming out of my mouth. I couldn't believe what this campaign - and I will admit it now in front of all of you- my need for revenge had turned me into. When me and my - for lack of a better term- husband came to washington in 1992 you really couldn't imagine all the great things we had planned for our tenure. We really were gonna do great things for this country. And then a great many things happened and we were forced to give up all our hopes and dreams and just hunker down and hopefully do as little harm as possible. I blamed alot of people for destroying my dreams. I blame Newt and his awful cadre of small minded men bent on destroying my husband and by association, me. I blamed that stupid fucking love of my life Bill for not being able to keep his eyes on the prize without using his new found power to get him more of that white trash strange he never lost a taste for. I blamed myself for not believing in anyone but myself. And so I ran for president to get back at all of them. My desperate hunger for revenge turned me into everything I hate. I am sorry. I really am better than that and I hope to spend the rest of my senate career proving that i am larger than the desperately small minded person I have become. Barak honey, I really did think you weren't ready for this. If I can take solace in something over this awful campaign ( you know I now have a picture of me hugging Rupert murdock? No amount of Crown Royal will wash away that terrible memory) it is that I have tempered you. Good god you are so handsome, how could anyone trust someone that good looking. And now you are ready for anything. Now, I know you don't need any advice from me but take this as you wish; The bastards really are out to get you. Watch your back. As a side note, if your wife weren't so hot and i was 20 years younger .... Well just say the word and I throw bill into the closest shit can so fast it'll make your head spin. So, in all sincerity, good luck. I have a busy schedule ahead of me trying to get back my dignity by kick the shit out of Joe Lieberman until election day. Thank you and may god have mercy upon all or our collective souls.
there is no question that last night's "debate" was a debacle. George and charlie accomplished exactly what they wanted to do. by focusing on lapel pins and the preacher, they trivialized what could have been and should have been out last chance to scrutinize these two candidates.
so who is to blame: the two media whores who are only concerned with ratings or rising up the network ladder. no, they are what they are. i blame both hillary and obama. as soon as they saw direction of the "debate" the two of them should have jointly walked off stage, leaving the hosts with gaping mouths and questions of "wot happened' and two hours of emptiness to fill.
what a statement that would have made rather than what ultimately transpired. they both would have been my heroes.
Ruminating on the flag pin issue, I took alittle walk down the McCain officail site, and walked through twenty photos on the main page, and guess what not a pin in site. Oh I lie, Liebermann wears a pin - but if he was a straight talker shouldn't he also have an Israeli pin on the other lapel to represent his dual nationality?
I don't understand why Barack doesn't hit back on this issue - throw the question back and ask why he is the only one being sandbagged on this, and not Hilary or McCain. The one guy who always wears a pin is the guy who says the constitution is a piece of G**** paper, took away Habeas Corpus, ignored the fourth amendment and made the US a nation of torture.
Wearing the pin is akin to wearing a swastika armband.
Benen,...Dont try to 'out-stupid' ABC....are you so uninformed that you really think they are identical in positions...funny that THEY disagree so much and you find flag pin wearing important, or whether Obama's pastor 'loves america as much as Obama does...? gag.. unfortunately it was seen in other countries as well...embarassing....yep the race to stupid is on, and you are OK with this tripe? that 'pithy' contribution (snark) by McCAIN..'..audIcity of hope? I guess they couldnt get one take of him getting 'audAcity' correctly, sorry but anyone who did not notice Obama asking again again to move to 'ISSUES' (do you think this means he felt there ARE differences that matter?) probably are in their element and its a good thing their broadcast name is no more complicated than A.B.C. ( cheat..write ABC on palm in ink to sneak a peek to remember correct order) PATHETIC and anyone defending this drivel driven dung has a serious disconnect at their brain stem. Did you notice that Obama did not 'pile on' Hillary about her courageous acts under sniper fire, he could have interjected that the 'tired' story was repeated by her 3 times and by Bill more recently? is she having more 'moments' than McBomb? Did you notice that Obama pushed to let it go instead? then Hillary repays that act of class by insisting that all these manufactured issues be 'further looked at'? CLASSLESS.. maybe he should have mentioned that Rev. Wright (former marine)was the person Bill and Hillary sought the council of over Bill's zippergate and that he also was called on by LBJ in a trying time for him....Barack Obama showed class and I will try to pre-empt any of the stereotyping of Obama supporters as 'too young to understand' (according to Bill) by fools who see nothing wrong with this crap..I am 57 years old and I was involved in protesting the Vietnam war too ...people of all ages are behind Obama but I havent seen such energy and involvement by the young people since I was 18 or 19 and this insults the intelligence of a great up and coming generation as well. this is NOT ACCEPTABLE.....
Considering last night’s debate, I’m not entirely unsympathetic to Charlie Gibson’s and George Stephanopoulos’ challenge. Clinton and Obama agree on most policy issues, so the hosts’ task was to focus on areas of disagreement in order to create some kind of television-worthy conflict.
I know I'm late in the thread, but I'm not sympathetic to their "challenge" for a minute!
Even if we accept the premise that there are few substantive policy differences between the two candidates, eliciting disagreement is simple:
"Sen. Clinton, can you outline for us precisely on which substantive policy issues you disagree with Sen. Obama, and why your stance is the better one?"
Pose the same to Obama.
Listen to their answers.
Press them further. Follow up.
Jesus H. Fernando Mother Fucking Michael Palin Christ on a Pogo Stick! Journalism isn't that difficult!
Well now, finally a debate where Obama has to play by Hillary rules. He didn't do too well did he?
He stumbled all over the place, practically circumnavigating the earth to give a simple yes or no answer. She was prepared, had plans, knew policies and issues backward and forward.
Meanwhile, he "ahs" and "ums" and tinkers with "the notion that". He's an embarrasment.
Clinton and Obama agree on the basics of most issues. The time spent on BS could have been spent on the finer details: Their differences on how to fix the economy, how to fix the unemployment rate, how to get out of Iraq. These, and a long, long list of others are details that really matter to the undecided Democrat.
If Obama gets the nomination and begins to sink in the general election vs McCain, this debate will be remembered as the best evidence we ever had for how unfit he was to be the candidate much less the President.
His fumfering around and cluelessness in response to a simple questioning of his tax proposals was pathetic. I do believe John McCain will appear to have a better understanding of the economy than Barack Obama in a general election debate.
It's not too late, folks.
sas @ 120:
Perfect. That is exactly what happened and the O-bots can't stand it.
It's Me @ 122:
That's a really big If to a dwindling amount of people and McCain wants a vacation on gas tax, now that's real fumbling! Sorry about the gain statement but in this mind it’s true. It's not too late for what? Vote for the viper?
Okay, I'll say it. Bill and Hillary need to take their banjos and their little "accident" back to the million dollar trailer park in Arkansas, but it's not really nice to say about banjos, Arkansas and I believe it devaluates the dollar even further.
; - )
I don’t really mean it!
I think Obama should wear 2 pins on his jacket. Now he is twice as patriotic as all the others. If anything it might get a laugh.
jonathan @ 115
That would be nice, but somehow Hillary seems far too petty to say anything like this.
"...all the substance of a Beavis and Butt-Head marathon."
Couldn't have put it better. Even their tease for the debate sets it up like a boxing match. Why not just have them wrestle in oil?
Apparently, your average American has about 10 times the intelligence of an ABC news team. THEY SUCK.
dropkick @ 126
NO! He should wear a suit with an image of the Constitution on the back!
This was the most embarrassing performance by the "so called" media in a major presidential debate in in MY lifetime, ABC News hosts Charles Gibson and George Stephanopolous focused on trivial issues as Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama faced off in Philadelphia.
Wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, the, economy "Stupid" health care and mortgage crises, and dozens of other pressing issues had to wait for their few moments in this hugely boring debate as Sen. Obama was pressed to explain his recent "bitter" gaffe (Which I don't think was a gaffe, because I feel bitter about not only Government, but all the lies and BS we get from the media) and relationship with Rev. Wright (seemingly a dead issue) and not wearing a flag pin (YES, flag PINS!! Ever heard of SNOPES.com?? They can tell you all about the O'Bama smear emails sent out by right wing idiots to save their collective asses from this debacle of 7 years!) while Clinton had to answer again for her Bosnia trip exaggerations...MAKE THAT "LIES"! Why didn't you ask her if it was an outright LIE??? It was! And still is!
Then it was back to Obama to defend his slim association with a former '60s radical, someone that did some terrible things, but at that time Sen. Obama was 8 years old, we all know this question is one that came out of rightwing talk radio and Sean Hannity on TV, but delivered by former Bill Clinton aide Stephanopolous. This approach led to a claim that Clinton's husband pardoned two other '60s radicals. And so on, and so on!!
I can assure you, I WON'T be watching your network or your news again! This is exactly what we as Americans DON'T want!!! The American people are a helluva lot smarter than you think!!! YOU BLEW IT ABC! BIG TIME!!
You're no better than the O'Reilly's and the Limbaughs and FIX News!!
I've said it time and time again, if there was ONE media outlet that dared to tell the people the TRUTH, all of the others would be non existent, because the truth is what we as the PEOPLE want on ALL fronts.
((( I think there is one solution to the travesty we witnessed last night: NPR.)))
Hands down, the best debate they had was the one on NPR where they only talked about three issues, three REAL issues, not silly crap: Iran (touching also on Iraq), China and immigration. There were no cameras, no audience, no grandstanding, no overpaid, egomaniac TeeVee pundits to parade their ignorance. The candidates (Edwards was still in at the time) were civil, they got fairly deep into policy and serious issue talk with a minimum of political posturing and gotcha gameplaying -- and they focused on bashing Republicans and Bush and why they were better for the country than the GOP, more so than tearing each other apart.
Of course, it was earlier on, before Hillary went deep into scorched-earth mode. But I actually came away proud of all three of them and convinced Dems deserved the job on merit and not just because the GOP is insane. (And Hillary has a much nicer "radio voice" than she does when she's playing to the crowd on TV) Seems like a lifetime ago (I think it was December).
And of course, that's the debate the junior high spite club that is the "serious" MSM universally derided as a big snooze and BOOOORRRRINNNNGGGG.
The MSM is complicit with the bush crime family...this was not a debate, this was the rehearsal for the upcoming imperial presidency coronation.
The democratic party has clearly been hijacked by the extreme leftwing. For left-leaning independents, this is very frustrating. The extreme righwing nuts of the Republican party took control of the party and they gave us George W. Bush. The democratic party is in danger of repeating the same mistake---not electing the most capable person into the white house. Our country needs Clinton NOW. There is no time for the empty "hope" talks. In Wednesday debate, it was obvious that while Hillary has provided detailed and substantive proposals, Obama spent most of his time describing this country's problems that we already know. He provided little insight on the solutions to these problems. Obama, I am afraid, is quite hollow in terms of his plan to lead this country to a better future. We need to alarm the democratic party that many independent voters could turn to McCain if Obama is nominated. I think this scenario is quite real and it has not been talked about enough in the main stream media. Take a look. http://ivotemccainifobamaisnominated.blogspot.com/ (I vote for McCain if Obama is nominated)
Mr. smart alleks Stephanopoulos and Gibson: Do you have an idea concerning the problems we face in this Country? Apparently not. Sorry but abc has lost me for good.
I thought the debate was a fascinating display of Obama dissembling. A thing to behold.
Hillary did great, which is probably why so many Obama fans thought the debate was awful. The questions were no worse than they usually are. Debates aren't a good place to get policy positions from, surely everyone knows that by now. Since most of the country has an internet connection, debates are now far more theater and drama than informative. Does anyone really expect to get anything substantial from them at this point? Come on.
Thank you for the phone numbers, I called and thanked ABC for finally having a fair debate and addressing questions that Obama has refused to deal with. We all know it is out there just waiting for the general election if Obama is the candidate. Sorry guys. He did not live up to the "love" most of you have given to him, press included.
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