ABC's Charlie Gibson Once Again Sandbags Dems With Fudged Numbers
By Bill W. Thursday Apr 17, 2008 4:15pm
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GIBSON: [H]istory shows that when you drop the capital gains tax, the revenues go up.
While much of the well-deserved criticism of ABC's Democratic debate on Wednesday night centered around the dwelling on gotcha questions and smears instead of substantiative issues, when they finally did get around to a question that could have been considered a real issue, Charlie Gibson, who has a history of sandbagging Democrats with right-wing disinformation about Bush's tax cuts, once again loaded up a question, disadvantaging the candidate and misled the millions of people watching:
As Jason Furman explains here, and as Len Burman explains here, the best evidence suggests otherwise. Cutting these taxes may lead to a temporary spike in revenue, because people sell stock to realize gains while rates are low. But over the long term, the biggest owners of stock—the wealthiest Americans—will mostly save what they will save, regardless of fluctuations in the rate.
The Congressional Budget Office notes that “the potentially large difference between the long- and short-term sensitivity of realizations to tax rates can mislead observers into assuming a greater permanent responsiveness than actually exists.”
As Barack Obama correctly alluded to, an article that same day reported that "the top 50 hedge fund managers earned a combined $29 billion in 2007. Five managers earned more than $1 billion." One of the main reasons they are doing so well while the economy is teetering is that the income derived from stocks is currently being taxed at less than half of the rate of what people who actually work for a living have to pay on their salaries.
Salary in the highest tax bracket is taxed at 35 percent, but profits from stocks held long enough to be called "long-term capital gains" are taxed at 15 percent. A hedge fund manager making $100 million in a year would pay $15 million to the government if he is able to take his income as capital gains, not the $35 million he would have to pay if the income was considered salary.
Full debate transcript here.
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Fuck Charlie Gibson. He's a liar and a fraud.
I have become actively hostile towards the media. I want these people to SHUT THE HELL UP and I want their media outlets SHUT THE HELL DOWN. They are worse than useless.
the war is on. and i'm not talking iran or iraq or any other middle eastern country we choose to attack and subsequently manufacture reasons for doing so. i'm talking the war of words that the media is waging upon the any candidate or party that stands against the current crime syndicate that leads this country. They perpetrate lies, they manipulate facts and they dominate the airwaves. Their battle plan will not change much for the next election. why mess with a proven winner. The audience is still the same, so keep the message the same. it worked to get the biggest loser one could ever imagine into the oval office. surely this will work for the American Hero mcsame. trust me, whoever controls the airwaves wins. middle america thrives on soundbites.
The fundamental problem rests in the belief that stock is bought or sold based upon rates of taxation. Did capital gains revenues increase in the '90s - yes, but it was incidental to the cutting of the rate. Revenues increased to to the rise of speculative buying in the dot-com sectors and the constant flipping of IPO stock buys. The same can be said to occur under Bush, where we have seen the rise (and fall?) of the day traders and speculative buying.
One of the overall problems in discussing equities markets today is the notion that somehow the value of stocks is tied to economy in general. The market, of today, is a fairly isolated engine -- yes, it may rise or fall based upon outside forces, but overall growth in value is not transfered into the economy as a whole. In the past companies would utilize higher stock values to pay for R&D and expansion; today those higher values are viewed as a target to be met with more cost-cutting, and profits are then re-invested into other securities more speculative investments.
According to the headline (story is mia), Hillary doesn't like Democratic activist types:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/
The assholiness of these guys seizes to amaze...
Did anybody notice the blip during the story about Zimbabwe on NPR just now whe Condi refered to Africa as the African Union?
I know, I know... But seriously. I've just been feeling like we're being DISTRACTED from the real story.
and our armies are becoming stranded in the deserts of Iraq where they can't protect us from the sadistic sociopaths who have taken control of our country.
these guys were getting their rocks off designing the torture techniques . . this is so far beyond poor judgement.
i'm not a proponent of violence but its time to get angry about the abuses we've sustained the past 7 + years.
Damn libural media. When you do not educate your population, it is easy to fool them. Repubs thus oppose actual education. They want to privatize, home school, etc. NCLB is a joke, and further turns "learning" from critical thinking to rote memorization. They are turning a whole generation of kids into sheep. From another point of view, if you can suppress your gag reflex, you have to admire how magnificently the very rich have bamboozled people into voting against their own interests. Sheep indeed.
ezpz @ 3:
Google HR1955 (Homegrown terrorist act) - thanks Jane Harman - what I've just done could be construed to be terrorism under this act. Waxman let this bill get passed on the list of "non-controversial bills".
please research this . . . we're running out of time before the next staged terror event
Since when did Gibson start wearing glasses in a scholarly fashion? I was probably sleeping when he started, so it may have been a while since I saw him without the glasses. Things are beginning to fray around the edges in the mainstream media. They are losing it. And all I can say is good riddance.
Can someone explain to me how cutting taxes raises revenues???
Lonny @ 9:
ditto
No, he's quite correct. Provided you study history wrongly. That's the bit he missed out.
Kerry's error was that he did not fight back fiercely enough against the fake swift boat attacks...
Obama has to address the most stupid charges on the stump...
Patriotism: Soldiers sacrifice the most for their country. But theirs is not the only form of patriotism there is. Opposing a dumb war is patriotic. Community service is patriotic. Working hard in a factory, as a teacher, as an engineer is patriotic. Demanding that government serve the interests of hard working americans is patriotic. Voting is patriotic. Running for pres, because he believes the american dream and a fair shake belongs to all americans, all races and classes, is patriotic. all these are more important than who wears a flag pin
Associations: He should say, that he believes in talking to people he does not agree with on all things. Just because some people have bad qualities and controversial qualities, does not mean there is no good in them. No one is perfect. Some people have said and done some crazy things in their life. But it does not benefit the country to have them thrown under the bus and ignore the good work they have done. Working with people on where there is common ground, is what he is about.
A divided house cannot stand. He should be judged by his record and his words, if inartful
he needs to face these fake issues directly while trying to keep the high ground
And remember, the Stock Market doesn't lose money. Ever.
The money, usually yours, from your stocks, mutual funds or pensions, go to someone else.
It doesn't disappear from anywhere but your pocket.
And if this doesn't apply to you, pay your taxes and be grateful and enjoy the 80-85% you get to keep.
Has everyone seen the new parody trailer "Sexpelled: No Intercourse Allowed"? It's a parody of Ben Stein's new Expelled movie:
http://digg.com/general_sciences/Sexpelled_No_Intercourse_Allowed_Expell...
Everyones starting to wear those thick ugly 1950's ties.
Not a good sign.
enor @ 15:
Markets are rebounding because Citi and Merrill and everyone else are announcing mass layoffs.
Thank you! I knew this was misleading BS (Tony Blankley loves to repeat it), but I'm grateful for a more detailed critique.
Can someone explain to me how cutting taxes raises revenues???
It's an old supply-side economics canard.
Hey, I'm all for the preferred tax rate for long-term capital gains. It saved me a bit over $200 last year. Does this make me a plutocrat? Of course, I feel a moral obligation to give away our rebate ($1200). Not that we're rich, just not in debt, thank the good lord. The tough part is deciding where it ought to go. Do consider spreading the 'wealth' when you receive your own checks. I plan to give to those who should have benefited from the original senate bill, and maybe Doctors Without Borders. Please consider it. Though I understand how you may really need it yourselves, but even a token amount is on the plus side.
We have to figure out how to raise revenues to finance McCain's multi-trillion-dollar three-front war.
L.A. Confidential @ 18:
Ask the auto industry how well that has worked for them.
Charlie Gibson,
How about if you reduce corporate taxes to 10%, will the revenues still go up? How about 5%? How about 0%?
Seriously, you media bobbleheads aren't that friggin' stupid, are you? Are you? Well, I guess you are.
enor @ 23:
Starve the Little Folks
NEW YORK - Retail gas prices set new records Friday on their seemingly relentless march toward $3.50 a gallon, and diesel prices pushed further above $4 a gallon. Crude futures, meanwhile, surged to a new record of $117 a barrel.
Truckers Plan D.C. Protests
On April 28, truckers from 24 states plan to take their protest of high fuel prices to Washington, D.C. Rallies to plan for the event are scheduled at 2 p.m. Saturday and April 26 at the Gables Truck Stop off Interstate 81 in West Hanover Twp.
He looks like a dork wearing glasses that way. Can he not afford invisalines? Or is he trying to evoke wisdom and perhaps a bit of the Ben Franklin with the 'off the nose' style?
CG, if you really want an affect, try a pince nez
It's FAR WORST than " bad journalism " , it's AGENDA driven issues , designed to do damage against Obama and Clinton . 'From the Straight talk Express " riders on msnbc , to Council on Foreign Relations member George Stephanopoulos , to CNN's / Blitzer's attack on former president Jimmy Carter for talking to the democratically elected Hamas .
They took out the low hanging fruit like Ron Paul , who pointed out the corruption of the Federal Reserve , a no no . That was an automatic disqualifier and after McCain got endorsed by his fund raising host "Lord" Rothschild in the UK , it highlighted the world banking cabal/Bilderberg gang that is pushing JM into the white house .
CNN spends all day fueling the accusation flames and the pope . Hillary said this about Obama . "How will he react " " Will this harm him " " Can he survive " , the nauseating loaded assertions Blitzer the carnival barker pushes all day is a disgrace .
There is no such thing as an independent news media in the U.S. and if we don't protect the internet from the Corporatism's attack on free speech and the challenges against corruption , we might as well pack it in .
L.A. Confidential @ 25:
$4 in West LA, (I paid 3.09 3 weeks ago) and no one is taking it to the streets.
Truckers are getting their incomes creamed.
Food prices haven't even started to reflect the impact from oil prices.
(The neocons were banking on the next administration to feel this heat.)
It's only the beginning...
L.A. Confidential @ 26:
Thank you for that update... the truckers are taking it to the streets (and highways).
And they will have an impact.
You're okay Charlie: Lets elect McCain. I like the high fuel prices, The
dead kids coming back from Iraq, the economy in the dumpster, the
religious war of words, for now, in the USA, The rotten high-priced
health care & much more shitty stuff that W & his gang will leave us.
McCain will make sure this trend will continue so Charlie he's got my
vote & yours too. Youza!!
Charlie's just another arrogant news media celebrity who thinks he is as important as the news he reports.
this is why this election is so important. if the dems win this will be the end of the neocons and the msm, which are 2 peas in a pod. if the dems lose, this will be the end of our democracy.
Guess what?? If we stopped having stupid, preemptive wars based on lies; and if we actually regulated banks, financial institutions and corporations; and, if we did away with NAFTA, CAFTA and all the other Ta's and kept some jobs here in the "Homeland"
the capital gains tax and probably some of the other ridiculous taxes we have wouldn't even be necessary!!!
I used to have some respect for Charlie Gibson. Lost it after reading about the atrocious debate on ABC.
I will admit, I did not know his history of sandbagging. >.>
I am of the belief that no matter where we turn, we (as a human species) are doomed because of the actions of the mindless. Everyone knows the old addage that one bad apple spoils the bunch. I daresay the neo-cons did a fantastic job of doing that.
They will be the death of us all unless we stop them.
redcat @ 33:
The neocons will slip under their rocks to rule another day... last time they waited 30 years.
If the Dems win, they will have to fix the messes they leave behind. Then they, the Democrats, will be labeled as tax and spend, etc... people will eventually forget this nightmare and vote their wallets and the cycle repeats.
if they promise to go away for 30 years i'll take that right now.
I found the pundits at the last debates on ABC outrageous. The “debates” should be renamed "Pundit Trials." The fact is that these overpaid pundits, who are part of the intelligentsia, do not have the same concerns that regular citizens have. It’s simply impossible due to the fact that they do not live among the citizenry but live and are part of the elite. Do you think that with their fat salaries they are really affected by the rise of oil prices? Do you really think they are concerned with the state of public schools when their kids are mixing with the elite in the safety of private schools? I was so offended by the fact that I had to watch over half the show before they finally dealt with the issues that concerns most people. This is the only way we can get a real idea of where the candidates stand. I mean, who cares about the pins. The pundits certainly were not wearing them. Does that make them less patriotic? Meanwhile, the Media is having a love fest with McCain and his life story and forgetting once again to deal with the issues. If they did, it would be clear that McCain’s policies are the continuation of the Bush and Neo-cons agenda. Last time I heard the citizenry rejected this agenda – clearly the Media has not. It is time for us to get our house in order - it is not ok to go to war and not pay for it. It is not ok to go to war and lie about it. It is not ok to talk family values and not support health care and job security. It is time to change the status quo! Shame on these pundits and their cohorts. Be aware that the masses will rise and be heard whether through the ballot box or their pocket books, but rise they will. It is only a matter of time. Meanwhile, I am shutting off my TV for good. I just cancelled my cable. I cannot take this propaganda trash any longer.
Why don't the Democratic candidates simply ask the obvious, i.e., "Why should you WORK for a living and pay 35% on the earnings from your labors, while Paris Hilton pays only 15% for sitting on her ass and clipping bond coupons?"
Charlie Gibson's faltering career is now formally "over". He made a total jackass of himself during this debate. His deceitful presentation of disinformation should not go unnoticed and should be blasted ALL over the mainstream media right now. Anything short of "outing" this jackass for the connivingly deceitful creep that he is would be "complicity".
The american people deserve better than this. If this is considered acceptable to Disney and ABC, then it's time to boycott the hell out of both of these moronic companies who do not deserve a red cent of our hard-earned money. They approved the questions and also need to be held accountable for the "hit job" which was so transparent it was laughable and totally made Gibson and Step look like morons.
If backstabbing journalists with an agenda of their own are "the best ABC can find", then it's time to get an ABC Blocker! They don't deserve the attention of the american people.
That goes for Disney, too. Their ridiculous admission prices have priced them out of the market anyway.
I believe that Hillary or Obama should decline to debate under "fixed circumstances" and "hit jobs" like this. They need not lend personal integrity or credibility to a circus such as this last debate. If I were them, I'd boycott anything ABC/Disney has to do with as well as Foch Snooze (Fox). They're downright hideous, contemptuous, and an insult to one's intelligence.
There is an official "Fox Blocker" which I and many friends have in our homes. Someone needs to develop an official "ABC blocker" now, too. Soon it won't be worth having cable television if they're all fascists who are only concerned about taking our money and not bringing us wholesome, honest programming.
Does anyone have the list of "advertisers" associated with ABC? If so, please provide it here so it can be sent all over the country to begin the ABC/Disney boycott.
The people need to send a clear message to ABC/Disney (and all of their advertisers) that we will not accept nonsense paraded as a legitimate debate. It was fraudulent of them to pretend that it was honest and legitimate.
Let the boycott begin - The channel blocker sends a clear signal that you have the ability to watch their programming but don't find it worthy of being in your home.
osiris Says:
There is an official “Fox Blocker” which I and many friends have in our homes. Someone needs to develop an official “ABC blocker” now, too. Soon it won’t be worth having cable television if they’re all fascists who are only concerned about taking our money and not bringing us wholesome, honest programming.
Does anyone have the list of “advertisers” associated with ABC? If so, please provide it here so it can be sent all over the country to begin the ABC/Disney boycott.
FOXBLOCKER? are you kidding me? Do you live in China or just favor their regime?
FOXBLOCKER? are you kidding me? Do you live in China or just favor their regime?
Charlie Gibson did not sandbag Dems with fudged numbers. He simply asked Obama a question that Obama chose to duck, bob and weave. He misled no one.
And hedge fund managers do actually work for a living. They work very hard. They worked very hard to get to where they've gotten. They provide jobs.
Larry Kudlow-
Look, here’s the deal: Obama bungled the tax question, big time. Period. End of sentence. End of story. To my liberal friends out there all I can say is: Get over it. Your guy has a very poor grasp of basic economic principles.
First off, you don’t raise taxes during a recession. That’s a no-brainer. Second, doubling the capital-gains tax affects Americans up and down the income ladder, not just rich hedge-fund managers. In addition, capital-gains tax cuts are self-financing, and they stimulate jobs and the economy. You want to raise budget revenues? Cut the cap-gains tax rate. That’s what history shows. Finally, hiking the payroll tax also affects people up and down the income ladder.
Uncapping the payroll tax reveals still another cultural misstep by Sen. Obama. He apparently has a difficult time understanding that nowadays, a veteran fireman or a veteran cop, married to a veteran schoolteacher, will make well over $100,000. In fact, they can make close to $200,000. Yet Obama still wants to go ahead and tax both the first and last payroll dollar of this group at a very high marginal tax rate by uncapping the Social Security (FICA) tax.
But put all this aside for a moment. Obama’s real agenda is a liberal-left ideology that places income redistribution above economic growth. That’s his real message. And looking at the results of presidential elections over the past three decades, Carter, Mondale, Dukakis, Gore, and Kerry all lost with a similar message. Bill Clinton? He was a growth Democrat. So he won twice. But Obama is aligning himself with the Democratic losers. And that will make him a loser as well.
It was hardly just Kudlow. Overwhelming concensus is that Obama stumbled badly on his answer to a more than reasonable question. It is this blog post that is misleading.
Corp Med is completely worthless. Run by richies and staffed by superficial weasles, many of whom earn alot more than they deserve.
I hope I live long enough to see it shut down for good and its key figures tarred and feathered.
The MSM is committing slow suicide. The newspapers are tanking, only old folks get their news from tv and the auduience - the small subset of the population that actually gives a flyin f what they say is dying off.
I am actually that they so nakedly showed their ass. There can be no doubt that their facile explainations are completely bogus. It has been an issue for the first time in the MSM itself!
I have seen this discussed on PBS, NBC, MSNBC and other outlets.
The blatant bias was obvious - to every reasonably fair-minded person in the country.
I wish we had a candidate who who respond to these questions by saying something like, "First... I just want to tell you that you are full of shit....".
The questions were not unfair. Obama does well when he can control the agenda--give a speech--but less well when he has to react to challenges. He's been presenting a certain package, and now it's starting to fray around the edges.
Of course, except for the fact that, historically, not once has lowering the capital gains tax resulted in larger revenues.
The Laffer Curve - the economic equivalent of a perpetual motion machine. Every example ever put forward has been disproved, but there's always some guy in his basement insisting that it *will* work this time, and his name will go forward in history!
IT WILL!
It can WORK! I KNOW IT CAN!
So is Gibson saying that if they lower the capital gains tax enough there will be enough revenue that they can do away with income tax for those making less then $100 grand a year?
/snark
you guys all know why they call george stephanopoulis "george snuffleupagus", right?
it's 'cause no one pays attention to him. in fact, most folks don't even think he exists...
Charlie Gibson's either a Pea Brain or a Wingnut.
No other option.
no longer a proud american @ 2:
Exactly! This nation is soooooo screwed.
It will take a major natural calamity or disaster, maybe even a new great depression to awaken the sleeping masses in America.
i just wanna know when one of the pod people from fox took over the bodies of gibson and george
the wingnuts are going full bore against obama now
this election in november will prove once and for all if americans care about bullshit more than their own self interests
is charles gibson supposed to be attacking obama for his answer during a debate?
our media sucks so much, they want to be rock stars so friggin badly is makes me sick...
slippy hussein toad @ 1:
Oh, you poor, suffering Obamabots.... HE CAN'T WIN....Face it!
C. Gibson et. al. SHOULD be vetting out this amateur! No one else has up to this point.
Quit crying. Politics is tuf. Unfortunately Mr. O has not had to take any heat because people are deemed racist if they confront any Obama issues. Wait til the Swiftboaters get him. He will be toast.
I thought the idea of a lower capital gains tax was to reward people who buy and hold for at least a year, and discourage people from short-term speculation.
Does it only apply to stocks? I think you used to pay capital gains tax when you sold your house. Is that not the case anymore? Because if it is, this will affect a lot more than rich fund managers.
Hey, chuck. Correlation is not causation.
I thought fudging was what Maggie Simpson did to her diapers.
David Hill @ 57:
Then how do you explain the Jonas Brothers?
That Folksy image that Charlie has tried to promote,will never hide the fact that he is a total ASSHOLE.
The debate seemed like it was rigged. Hillary appeared as if she KNEW ahead of time what questions were going to be asked. I am very disappointed in Charlie Gibson. I expected that from George, because he worked for the Clintons. It was not a fair debate. I think taking heat on IMPORTANT issues is one thing, but it took almost an hour before they ever got to any questions that Americans care about. Years from now, who is going to care who the Preacher of Obama is, just like people don't care anymore that Bill Clinton was fooling around in the White House with Monica. The American People care about how we are going to survive. Taxes keep going up. Food keeps going up. Gas keeps going up. We want the war to end and the money that is being spent on the war to be spent on Americans...Education, finding cancer cures, etc. Have a real debate, a fair debate about the real issues that matter to Americans. However, if Barack Obama is going to be so unfairly attacked, why not attack Hillary too. Why not ask her tough questions about Vince Foster, Whitewater, lies about the origin of her name, Filegate, Whitehouse travel agency. While they are at, why not ask her what she is going to do IF she becomes President to keep her husband away from the interns?
Just my two cents...
L.A. Confidential @ 25:
I see how upset the country is. Wake me when we get to $5, maybe then there'll be some action.
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