McCain bashes Obama on Ayers but stands by his association with anti-Catholic pastor Hagee
By John Amato Saturday Apr 19, 2008 4:01pm
Leave it to John McCain to straight talk himself into the ground over John Hagee. Isn't it interesting that it took all this time for the media to finally discuss McCain's relationship with John Hagee? McCain foams up over Obama's knowledge of Ayers, not an endorsement mind you, but says he still is very happy with the endorsement of the extreme Catholic hating preacher by the name of John Hagee and is proud to have lobbied to get it. Obama never asked anything of Ayers, but McCain begged Hagee's help. It probably was a mistake actually says STM, but he's glad he got his support anyway. What the heck is he talking about?
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STEPHANOPOULOS: Well, you say he should condemn these comments.
MCCAIN: Sure.
STEPHANOPOULOS: A lot of Senator Obama's allies and others say that you should condemn the comments of Reverend John Hagee, an evangelical pastor...
MCCAIN: Oh, I do. And I did. I said, any comments that he made about the Catholic church I strongly condemn, of course.
STEPHANOPOULOS: Yet you solicited and accepted his endorsement?
MCCAIN: Yes, indeed. I did. And I condemned the comments that he made concerning the Catholic church.
STEPHANOPOULOS: But you're going to hold onto his endorsement? Your own campaign acknowledged that you should have done a better job of vetting Pastor Hagee.
MCCAIN: Oh, sure.
ABC News supplies the transcripts:
MCCAIN: Because if you're going to associate and have as a friend and serve on a board and have a guy kick off your campaign that
says he's unrepentant, that he wished bombed more -- and then, the worst thing of all, that, I think, really indicates Senator Obama's
attitude, is he had the incredible statement that he compared Mr. Ayers, an unrepentant terrorist, with Senator Tom Coburn, Senator
Coburn, a physician who goes to Oklahoma on the weekends and brings babies into life -- comparing those two -- I mean, that's not --
that's an attitude, frankly, that certainly isn't in keeping with the overall attitude...
(CROSSTALK)
STEPHANOPOULOS: Senator Obama said...
MCCAIN: And it's very insulting to a great man, a great doctor, a great humanitarian, to compare to him with a guy who says, after 2001, I wish we had bombed more.
I had a reconciliation with the anti-war movement. One of the great experiences of my life was to get to know and love David Ifshin.
I had a reconciliation with the Vietnamese, when we normalized relations.
But how can you countenance someone who was engaged in bombings which could have or did kill innocent people...
STEPHANOPOULOS: Senator Obama says he was eight years old when that was happening.
MCCAIN: But he became friends with him and spent time with him while the guy was unrepentant over his activities as a member of a
terrorist organization, the Weathermen. I don't -- and then to compare him with Dr. Tom Coburn, who spends so much of his life bringing babies into this world -- that, in my view is really -- borders out outrage.
STEPHANOPOULOS: He also pointed out that he and Mr. Ayers have a very loose relationship. They live in the same neighborhood. There
was an organizing meeting many, many years ago, in his house. And he says, frankly, I don't agree with these comments that Mr. Ayers made.
MCCAIN: Doesn't agree with them? Does he condemn them?
Would he condemn someone who says that they're unrepentant and wished that they had bombed more -- and compare him to a doctor, one
of the great humanitarian -- in my view, one of the greatest spokespersons for the rights of the unborn in America?
STEPHANOPOULOS: Well, you say he should condemn these comments.
MCCAIN: Sure.
STEPHANOPOULOS: A lot of Senator Obama's allies and others say that you should condemn the comments of Reverend John Hagee, an
evangelical pastor...
MCCAIN: Oh, I do. And I did. I said, any comments that he made about the Catholic church I strongly condemn, of course.
STEPHANOPOULOS: Yet you solicited and accepted his endorsement?
MCCAIN: Yes, indeed. I did. And I condemned the comments that he made concerning the Catholic church.
STEPHANOPOULOS: But you're going to hold onto his endorsement?
Your own campaign acknowledged that you should have done a better job of vetting Pastor Hagee.
MCCAIN: Oh, sure.
STEPHANOPOULOS: So was it a mistake to solicit and accept his endorsement?
MCCAIN: Oh, probably, sure. But I admire and respect Dr. Hagee's leadership of the -- of his church. I admire and appreciate
his advocacy for the state of Israel, the independence of the state of Israel.
I condemn remarks that are made that has anything to do which is condemning of the Catholic church, but -- so...
(CROSSTALK)
STEPHANOPOULOS: ... no longer want his endorsement?
MCCAIN: I'm glad to have his endorsement. I condemn remarks that are, in any way, viewed as anti-anything. But thanks for asking.
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" MCCAIN: Oh, probably, sure. But I admire and respect Dr.
Hagee’s leadership of the — of his church. I admire and appreciate
his advocacy for the state of Israel, the independence of the state of
Israel. "
Question Georgie Boy Should Have Asked: "You previously condemned Dr. Hagee for his adverse comments about the Catholic Church, yet you refuse to denounce him and actively sought his endorsement. Senator, do you, like Dr. Hagee, hate the Catholic Church? Is your hatred merely confined to the Pope and Vatican City? Or do you hate the government of Italy, against which your father fought in World War II, and its people?
Why didn't Georgie Boy ask this question. Sean Hannity refused to let him.
Dear Mainstream Media. This is anonymous...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjRpdVVWFAM
hagee only supports israel, because he prays everyday that a huge conflaguration will occur in the mideast, killing all the jews and bringing back jesus
and enuf of the rehashing of the 60s
and enuf of ayers, who really has had nothing to do with obama since his state campaigns
and coburn is a wonderful man???? he is a fucking nutjob
Hypocrite Express.
HYP-O-you know the rest
Wow, he is trying very hard to be buddy buddy with George. Come on Georgie, have a rib, let's talk about how we are friends, not enemies. I mean, does John understand that he is blaming Obama for one thing, then saying it is ok for him to do the same thing? really?
More evidence of the unholy alliance between right-wing Israelis, neocons, and end-timer right wing evangelicals. These characters have been planning for us to meddle in the the middle east for some time and McCain has to suck up to them to be bush's heir-apparent. Hagee is the Grand Kludd of the kill-an-A-rab-for-Christ crowd.
George should've blown him
What about McCain's relationship with indicted Congressman Rick Renzi, who works on McCain's campaign? Renzi was indicted for extortion, money laundering, wire fraud and other crimes. When will McCain fire Renzi from his campaign and renounce him?
What about McCain's relationship with televangelist Rod Parsley, whose called for the destruction of Islam? Parsley is a key McCain ally in Ohio. When will McCain renounce him?
McCain has no business with this man's endorsement! None! Guy reminds me of Father Coughlin (talking of Hagee, here.) He wants a second Holocaust to bring back Christ! If Obama must denounce and disassociate from Wright, this Southern Baptist wants to see McCain dissociate himself from Hagee! A man like Hagee has no business being the mentor of a leader of a country with thousands of nuclear warheads.
Personally, I'd like to see my fellow Christians get it through their heads that Jesus said Caesar's realm is distant from God's and stay the Hell (pun not intended) out of politics. For the world's sake.
Once again, two standards: Republicans can do what they want and Democrats must do what Republicans say.
I know this may rankle some, but I think the Weathermen were American heroes. Misguided, yes, Reactionary, maybe. Ineffective, ultimately, but these people didn't sit around and let our country walk blindly into all-out imperialism without making people pay attention.
If you can, see the documentary "The Weather Underground" I'll take Bill Ayers love over Hagee's hate any day.
Other questions that never came up: You've also supported George Bush in the past. Do you still do so, knowing he regularly had religous guidance from a methamphetamine using, male prostitute frequenting pastor? Also, do you denounce the late Reverend Falwell, as he stated Americans were responsible for at least partially responsible causing 9/11?
Man, they should just compile McCrazy's interviews into one segment and call it "Everywhich Way But Loose" because that's how his answers are - they go in every direction, contradict previous positions. Jesus, this guy is something else. At least Stephanopoulos seemed to be doing his job this time (but then again, he had just about everybody in the blogosphere watching him didn't he?).
Why does Stephanopoulos let Gone InSane get away with hyper-extending Obama's analogy between Coburn and Ayers? Sane people know that he wasn't saying that Coburn and Ayers were comparable in their actions. He was saying that merely being friendly with someone does not mean that one agrees with their viewpoints, and that, in fact, one can be friendly with someone whose viewpoints one finds despicable.
I hate when people hyper-extend analogies. It's a slimy debate tactic, and somehow always succeeds in derailing discussions. Stephanopoulos is a terrible interviewer.
Hyper Extender: You said that you have certain personal tastes in common with Ronald Reagan. Does that mean you agree a lot with him?
Analogizer: Of course not. That's silly. I mean, you're a vegetarian. Hitler was also a vegetarian. Does that mean that you're agree a lot with Hitler?
Hyperextender: Oh my god! How can you say Ronald Reagan is the same as Hitler?
If McCain can't handle the rather gentle, kid gloves type treatment the media gives him, just what the fuck is he going to do in debates when he goes one on one against Obama? It ain't gonna be pretty; McCain will probably do a complete meltdown right there on teevee.
...my friends...well um sure...my friends...um where is my mistress um wife..um my beer fortune, um, um, um
guy is TOO OLD TO BE PREZ
not only that HE HAS ANGER MANAGEMENT ISSUES
McFriendy receives another free pass from the media. Too bad Republicans aren't made to live up to the standards they like to set for everyone else.
Karen @ 14:
And how about McSame's debate tactic of holding himself to a different standard than he holds Obama?
mccain's been pastorized?
So, if this was Germany, 1936 McCain would say "I’m glad to have Adolph Hitler's endorsement but I condemn remarks
that are, in any way, viewed as anti-anything."
Sorry Karen,
I hope my remark, #18, didn't sound like a criticism of you. I'm frustrated with McCain and the media and my comment was intended for them.
C&L is trying to show that Boy George is now making nice-nice (with hard-hitting questions) after his disastrous sniper attack on Obama last week. That's your duty (to be fair), I guess, but...
It's just not going to work for me.
That so-called debate had a huge national audience, and THIS interview has a fraction of the viewers. Boy George set out to damage the Dem candidates, and that can't be reversed. I will always liken him to a neo-con.
It's still the American Bullshit Corporation, too. Thank God I don't have to watch it and I can just read about it here.
Leslie [Bitter Elitist Hussein] @ 21:
Didn't take it that way at all. ;)
I cannot stand Gone InSane, and whether Obama, Clinton or some other come-from-nowhere candidate emerges from the Democratic convention as the nominee, I'll do whatever I can to keep the Republicans out of the White House.
As a Catholic, the whole Hagee mess really turned me off to McCain. This seems to be a double standard, since McCain can get away with being buddy-buddy with somebody like Hagee, not wear a flag pin, etc. solely because of - what? His age? Military service? It seems like anti-Catholicism is still a legitimate form of bigotry in this country, especially with the wacko right-wing evangelical group. It's ridiculous how "conservative" Catholics are tricked into voting for these nutjobs who appeal to them on abortion while calling their faith an "apostate church." Sickening.
It's good to see that these baby-boomer are finally getting old and dying off. McCain and Hillary will most likely be the last boomer presidential canidates that we have to put up with. What a worthless generation. They destroyed our healthcare system and moved all of our factories overseas. Once the boomers die off; we can get to work fixing the damage that they did.
Obama was pressed during a debate to "reject" Farrakhans endorsement. But McCain can without fuss accept Hagees endorsement despite he frequently says outrageous things about catholics, muslims, homosexuals etc etc
galmud @ 26:
IOKIYAR, mein Freund. IOKIYAR.
Hagee is a nasty piece of work. Much worse than Rev. Wright.
General_Rennenkampf @ 27:
Really? How so?
Ayers is a murderer. He bombed the pentagon. He should have been executed for treason. Whatever absurdity Hagee said, it pails in comparison at Ayers.
Moreover, the moral equivalency on the Left demonstrates just how out of touch you are with America.
“MCCAIN: I’m glad to have his endorsement. I condemn remarks that are, in any way, viewed as anti-anything. But thanks for asking.” [You jerk, you’re drafted.]
I bet after each interview, McShitForBrains runs to the nearest TV to watch a tape of it and continuously says throughout the tape “OMG, did I really say that?” Any poll that shows this geezer ahead in anything is rigged.
lolo @ 28:
As I've stated, he thinks a nuclear war and the annihilation of Israel are the key to the Second Coming. He forgets, and so do all of the "OMG LOL IZREEL BEN REGAITHERED LULZ" types that this already happened, once, under a certain Judas Maccabeus. No reason to suspect that if a general Middle Eastern war occurs that unless Israel's nuclear club comes into play, it won't get punked, again.
The fixation by the religious right on a Jewish state with a bad human rights record regarding both Muslims and Christians is both worrying and ironic. These loons are sooner or later, if the Second Coming keeps delaying like it has since forever, start their attempt for it by starting WWIII. And instead of going magically "POOF!" they'll dissolve in nuclear fire with the rest of us.
Bottoms up, me boy, bottoms up.
General_Rennenkampf @ 27:
I listened to one of Hagees sermons. And it was just 40-50 minutes of nonstop of hate against Muslims, "200 million muslims are ready to invade and destroy both America and Israel!!"
Wright you have to cherrypick him out of context to find something controversial. Hagee you can just pick any 10 seconds at random
29 Devil’s Advocate
Pervez Musharraf's human rights record was every bit as bad as Saddam Hussein but the former is our allie, and the latter our allie turned enemy.
Under booshco we've buddied up with Heydar Aliyev the leader of Azerbaijan after he attempted genocide against the Nagorno-Karabakh. booshco took him off the list of nations not to deal with, where President Clinton placed him for human rights abuses, because they wanted to get their hands on the Caspian sea oil.
Talk about the moral equivalency of the Right.
Devil's Advocate @ 29:
The Weathermen never hurt anyone with their bombs. Maybe you should check your facts. Oh, WAIT! You're a Republican. Nevermind.
ysbaddaden @ 33:
Did Musharraf declare war against the United States and Bomb our pentagon. Did Musharraf klll Americans on American soil!! Ayers did just that!! This is exactly what I am talking about.
If bombing a bathroom is treason, then every kid who drops a cherry bomb in the toilet better WATCH OUT!!!
One thing that Repuklicans like McInsane can't do is spell HYPOCRISY. This is why even when they win, they are all losers. Like Bush, McInsane is someone I can't stand to see or to listen to.
But how can you countenance someone who was engaged in bombings which could have or did kill innocent people…
Is McCain talking about himself here, remember dropping bombs on the Vietnamese,
Oh, I forgot, those yellow people don't count.
Only in America
chuck @ 25:
Sorry, we can't wait for them all to die off. The country will go down the tubes in the meantime. Gotta do it this year with Obama. We are losing our freedom of speech and our justice system. The class divide will only be able to be solved by revolution if we don't do something now. Torture. Our status in the world. You name it. Hillary and McCain both represent this establishment. A PRE-boomer supporter of Obama here!
Devil's Advocate @ 29:
Let's be clear. I'm not excusing the Weatherman organization for any actions, but let's get some facts on the table:
Via Wikipedia:
They tried to minimize the loss of life as much as possible. The damage done in the Pentagon bombing was to information, not people. Again, that does not excuse what they did, but your inflammatory rhetoric does not make for an honest discussion.
From Ayer's own blog:
The ridiculous moral equivalency is to liken the fact that Obama and Ayers ran in the same Chicago political circles (Ayers is a respected professor at UIC), but Obama neither sought nor received Ayers' endorsement to McCain's active seeking out of the endorsement of a hate-monger and genocide-endorser.
This six degrees of separation is ridiculous and intellectually dishonest. So Obama should be condemned for the actions of a man who lives in his neighborhood that occurred decades before the acquaintance, but McCain gets a pass for wanting to be in the shadows of a man who wants to bring on Armageddon?
OT I know but I can't wait 6 hours for the open thread. Sorry
Read this
This was Condi's response
Does this sound good to you? Was this the most diplomatic thing she could have said? Was this a dare?
naschkatze Hussein @ 39:
Is it fair to condemn a whole generation? I've got a friend, a fellow Gen X'er who shares this attitude, and I never understood it. I certainly don't like McCain, and I'm not a huge Hillary fan, but I don't condemn either of them because of the generation they belong to.
This guy hasn't even remotely been touched yet and if anything, the dem candidate that comes out of the primary is gonna have such a thick skin, it won't matter what poo the wing nuts fling at them...
And if today's any indication of how this guy is gonna handle the heat, forget it...he's going to blow an O ring. He may be a a war hero but he's a pathetic politician.
Devil's Advocate @ 35:
Didn't Bin Laden order his followers to fly a plane into the Pentegon killing Americans on American soil yet our President admits to not spending much time thinking about him. What gives?????
Talk about having your cake and eating it too.
By McSame's logic Obama should be able to accept his preacher's endorsement based on all the good and just things he's had to say,while condemning the more radical statements.
Devil's Advocate @ 35:
I can't find any indication that Ayers killed Americans on American soil--there was an accident that killed members of the Weather Underground, but nothing to say that Ayers caused it to happen. Saddam Hussein did not declare war on the US while he governed Iraq and he didn't bomb the Pentagon either, in fact no Iraqis were involved in 9/11 attacks. The Weather Underground is nowhere near the moral equivalent of Al Quaeda, Hussein or Pervez Musharraf. And just to preempt anymore comments, Ayers remarks about "they didn't do enough" isn't about bombing, it's about calling attention to and correcting social injustice in the good ole US of A.
Buh bye Devil's Advocate--don't let the doorknob hit ya!
robbie @ 34:
People were MURDERED you idiot!! Yes they were....you need to check your facts.
Devil's Advocate @ 35:
Musharraf financed Osama Bin Laden in his acts of sending planes into the Pentagon, the WTC, and that Pennsylvanian meadow.
Wanna try again?
john the baptist @ 8:
that was part of his reward after (but not during) the 'interview' , gotta pretend a little bit.
Devil's Advocate @ 47:
You need to look up Kathy Boudin.
General_Rennenkampf @ 48:
Ayers is an American murdering traitor who should have been put to death years ago, and Obama is friends with him. Now Obama wants to lead. I couldn't think of anything more relevant.
Again, to compare Hagee to Ayers is the definition of Absurdity.
Two points about McCain's performance this morning (and the others "journalists" as well). As a Catholic, I will NEVER vote for McCain. I am STILL extremely offended and angry about his association with the Catholic-hating Hagee and would NOT vote for McCain for dog catcher, much less president.
Secondly, did anyone else catch the remark made by George Will during the roundtable. He was discussing Obama's tax plan. He said that Obama wants to raise taxes on those making over $100,000 per year. He said the Chicago TEACHERS and POLICE making $100,000 are part of Obama constituency and they are the ones who would be affected. EXCUSE ME? Chicago TEACHERS and POLICE make $100,000 per year? What planet does this guy live on? Granted, there may be SOME 30 year teachers and police who make in excess of $100,000, but I can guarantee George Will that the MAJORITY of Teachers and Police in Chicago DO NOT make $100,000 per year. None of the others on the panel even made a comment, they just keep quiet and allowed him to make his point as IF IT WERE TRUE. What kind of Journalists are these people? My God, no wonder the voting public is so MISINFORMED about the candidates, the issues and everything else. The journalists have NO CLUE either.
General_Rennenkampf @ 48:
Can you please start demonstrating some intellectual honesty. Now you are just making stuff up.
Musharraf did not pay Bin Laden to bomb the towers. But, Ayers did Bomb the Pentagon, and he is a murderer.
IrishKevin @ 52:
Chicago Police and Teachers have pensions and 401(k). The Capital Gains tax will be raised which will destroy their pensions.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=po7J0f5TMrQ
Interesting interview, maybe George S. should have taken some time during the commercial to find all of the flip-flops.
McCain: I said, any comments that he made about the Catholic church I strongly condemn, of course.
next statement:Yes, indeed. I did (saying he went after his endorsement). And I condemned the comments that he made concerning the Catholic church.
STEPHANOPOULOS: So was it a mistake to solicit and accept his endorsement?
MCCAIN: Oh, probably, sure. But I admire and respect Dr. Hagee’s leadership of the — of his church. I admire and appreciate
his advocacy for the state of Israel, the independence of the state of Israel.
I condemn remarks that are made that has anything to do which is condemning of the Catholic church, but — so…
(CROSSTALK)
STEPHANOPOULOS: … no longer want his endorsement?
MCCAIN: I’m glad to have his endorsement. I condemn remarks that are, in any way, viewed as anti-anything. But thanks for asking
So basically, I would sum it up like this:
McCain should have said: I knowingly went after the endorsement of an anti-Catholic bigot. I am glad to have it. Even though I am glad to have it, I renounce his core beliefs and those beliefs that make him who he is. However, any of his followers who believe similarly, I don't mean to offend you, but please vote for me. I am with you guys because he supports me, but stop talking like that.
Earlier McCain said this:
I will say that he said that his words were taken out of context, he defends his position. I hope that maybe you’d give him a chance to respond. He says he has never been anti-Catholic, but I repudiate the words that create that impression.
McCain then said he could look past Hagee’s bigoted comments because “when we were doing the No Surrender tour, he came and spoke on behalf of not surrendering in Iraq.”
http://thinkprogress.org/2008/03/11/mccain-hagee-hewitt/
Maybe luckily, maybe not, but NONE of the Weather Underground's bombings killed anyone. I would love it if any of the abortion clinic bombers were interviewed for their endorsements.
So, if bigots support war, McCain can look past their comments?
Ayers and Obama have a "loose" relationship. McCain actively sought Hagee's endorsement. You decide.
LegallyBlonde @ 44:
This has nothing to do with Ayers, who bombed the pentagon and killed Americans. The discussion is Ayers.
Devil's Advocate @ 53:
Musharraf certainly did nothing about the Taliban on his border....
Which was harboring Bin Laden....
So, he certainly allowed it to happen...
Devil's Advocate @ 53:
Actually, Musharraf allowed al Qaeda to train in Pakistan prior to 9/11 and has taken a very passive role in policing them since the invasion and occupation of Iraq.
But using your logic of treasonous relationships, how do you feel about George Bush's and his father's long-standing working relationship with the Bin Laden family?
General_Rennenkampf @ 57:
Glad to see you are backtracking your statements. You are comparing nonaction with the actual bombing of the towers.
Under your logic, I could blame code pink for the violence in Iraq.
Now, back to Ayers. The man is a murderer, a bomber of the Pentagon, on 9/11 he said he wished he did more bombings, and he should be executed, not hanging out with the Democratic Nominee.
Devil's Advocate @ 59:
How do you feel about the US being neck-deep in business with the Saudis, who provided 19 of the hijackers?
Nicole Belle @ 58:
The state of intellectual dishonesty on the Left is embarrasing. You know that the Bin Ladens have something like 30 kids. Most of them are nothing like Osama, and the fact that you know this yet still make this argument demonstrates your contempt for your own ability to argue.
Again, we are talking about Ayers. The fact that Obama is friends with him is relevant, when the man should have been executed for treason.
General_Rennenkampf @ 60:
Again, more intellectual dishonesty. The Saudis threw Osama out of Saudi Arabia. Osama attacked from Afghanistan. You know this is the case, but you still made the argument that has no factual basis.
Devil's Advocate @ 61:
Again, the US has business deals with Saudi Arabia, from which 99% of the 9/11 terrorists came...
Devil's Advocate @ 51:
He is? Then why aren't the cops arresting him? I mean, he's not hiding or anything - he's right there! Enjoying his career as a respected professor and productive member of the community! Go get 'im!
Devil's Advocate @ 62:
And so what? Most hijackers were Saudi. Undeniable fact. Does that make us all traitors for having deals with the Wahhabites?
back when Obama was 8 John McCain was dropping bombs on villages of Vietnamese women and children.
msm4UandMe @ 2:
That's excellent, and very catchy, too. Let's hope it's also prophetic.
Devil's Advocate @ 61:
You're the one who is drawing the false equivalencies...I'm pointing out the absurdity. If Barack Obama had been business partners with one of the bin Ladens, would you be so casual about it? I hardly think so. So we all know who is being intellectually dishonest here.
Being acquainted with and running in the same circles as someone who is living a respectable life now despite despicable acts done years and years ago--long before the acquaintance--is not the same as actively seeking out the endorsement of someone who vocally and frequently advocates genocide.
Shall I judge you by the sexual predator that lives down the street from you?
Devil's Advocate @ 54:
So Mr. Economist, please explain to me HOW "The Capital Gains tax will be raised which will destroy their pensions."
My 401K has taken a SIGNIFICANT HIT so far this year due to the housing crisis, the fall of the dollar, the the rise of the price of oil, the fall of the stock market, etc. as a reulst of the Bush economic policies. ( and don't insult my intelligence by saying it is the democratic congress. Bush had a republican majority for 6 YEARS while this debacle was growing).
So again Mr. Economist, please explain to me HOW "The Capital Gains tax will be raised which will destroy their pensions."
Devil's Advocate @ 61:
Where is it that Ayers murdered someone? Please provide your source. And how do you get that Obama is "friends" with Ayers?? Being cordial towards someone is far from being "friends". I know McCain is fond of addressing people as "my friends" but I'm sure he isn't planning on hanging out with me anytime soon.
The Elite Rusty Shackleford @ 64:
There was prosecutorial misconduct. That is the only reason why he is on the streets.
chuck @ 25:
McCain a Boomer! hardly! He was born in the 1930's. The oldest boomers were born in 1946 - Clinton and Bush were born that year. Barack Obama is a young Boomer.
As a Baby Boomer myself (nee 1946, too) I think it's time to move on - certainly not time to elect a really, really old guy.
BTW, don't kill me off yet!
Nicole Belle @ 67:
IrishKevin @ 68:
1) Pensions are taxed under capital gains tax when they are sold. When people take out their pensions, if Obama wants to raise the tax from 15% to 28%, that is taxing them 28% more than they would be;
2) When the capital gains tax is raised, people hold on to their stock and don't sell it because they would rather wait a decade or so to see if the tax goes down. The rest of the population will not buy stock or other long-term investments because they will be taxed too much if they want to sell it. Since Pensions and 401(k) hold these same types of investments, they will tank if the Capital Gains tax is raised;
3) Moreover, the federal government has taken in more money every time the Capital Gains tax is lowered for the same reason as stated in #2, and vice verse. If you want to have the government lose revenue, by all means, raise the Capital Gains tax - nobody will sell their long-term investments and the government will get nothing.
Nicole Belle @ 40:
Thank you, Nicole
This is what people don't understand. Hagee is a fundameentalist Christian who's a "longtime, devout supporter of Israel." Fundamentalist Christians believe that Israel will be destroyed and the Rapture will happen. Any "Christians" that support these sorts of people without reconciling that are bad enough. Any pro-Israel types who want to encourage these Hagee-like psychos are positively suicidal.
LegallyBlonde @ 69:
Just as a Mafia Boss is a murderer for ordering the murder of others. Ayers ordered others to commit bombings and robberies. Many of his followers are in jail and he is not because of prosecutorial misconduct.
Ayers should be executed.
robbie @ 74:
Well, the Israelis' view on the matter is that "when Jesus returns" they'll ask if he has been there before.
Devil's Advocate @ 70:
Sorry counsellor. "Prosecutorial misconduct" doesn't keep "murdering traitors" out of jail.
I think the more likely explanation is that you are just pulling lies out of your ass.
Nicole Belle @ 67:
If I went to the house of a known sexual predator and served on the same board as him with no objections. Yes.
The Elite Rusty Shackleford @ 77:
Yes it does. Have you heard of the Bill of Rights?
Nicole Belle @ 40:
Intellectual honesty is NOT the hallmark of Republicans. But, you knew that, Nicole.
If Ayers had murdered someone -- I believe there are no statutes of limitations on that. So why ain't he in prison? Devil's advocate can't answer this question because he's too lazy to read up himself on the subject. He's just got his talking points fed to him from Rush Limbaugh and his orders to go forth and spew.
Forgive me, Lord, but I'm starting to really hate John McCain. And to think that I once thought he was an OK and decent guy. Now he looks slimy and deceitful, and is seriously giving me the creeps.
andy @ 66:
McCain Says:
"But how can you countenance someone who was engaged in bombings which could have or did kill innocent people…"
Is McCain talking about himself here, remember dropping bombs on the Vietnamese,
Oh, I forgot, those yellow people don’t count.
Only in America
Devil's Advocate @ 70:
Who did he kill, dipshit? You don't have an answer for that question.
HYPOCRITE!!!
Devil's Advocate @ 79:
Yepper. Learned all about it in law school.
Now, do you have any facts at hand, or are you sticking with the pulling lies out of your ass technique of argument?
slippy hussein toad @ 83:
In 1981, when Kathy Boudin was 38 years old, she and several members of the Weather Underground and the Black Liberation Army robbed a Brinks armored car at the Nanuet Mall, in Nanuet, New York. After Boudin dropped her infant son, Chesa, at a baby sitter's she took the wheel of the getaway vehicle, a U-Haul truck. Kathy Boudin waited in a nearby parking lot as her heavily armed accomplices took another vehicle to a local mall where a Brinks truck was making a delivery. They confronted the guards and firing immediately broke out, severely wounding guard Joe Trombino and killing his co-worker, Peter Paige. The four then took $1.6 million in cash and rendezvoused with Boudin.
An alert high-school student called the police after spotting the heavily armed gang abandoning the getaway vehicle and entering the U-Haul. A police officer spotted and pulled over the U-Haul, but they could only see Boudin in the drivers seat. Boudin then got out of the cab, and raised her hands.
The police officers who caught them testified that Boudin, feigning innocence, pleaded with them to put down their guns and got them to drop their guard; Boudin said she remained silent, that the officers relaxed spontaneously. After the police did lower their weapons six of the men in the back of the truck armed with automatic weapons came out of the back of the truck, surprising the four police officers. A police officer, Waverly Brown, was killed instantly. Boudin and David Gilbert, a Weatherman radical and the father of Boudin's infant son, allegedly acted as decoys as well as getaway drivers: The Brinks robbers the police were searching for were all from the Black Liberation Army and drove a red car. Officer Edward O'Grady lived long enough to empty his revolver, but as he reloaded, he was shot several times with an M16. Ninety minutes later, he died on a hospital operating table. The other two officers escaped with only minor injuries. The occupants of the U-Haul scattered, some climbing into another getaway car, others carjacking a nearby motorist while Boudin attempted to flee on foot. An off-duty corrections officer apprehended her shortly after the shoot out. When she was arrested, Boudin gave her name as Barbara Edson.
Three other Black Liberation Army members failed to escape that day. Weatherman David Gilbert, Samuel Brown, and Judith Alice Clark crashed their own car while making a sharp turn, and were arrested by police. Two days later, Samuel Smith and Nathaniel Burns were spotted in a car in New York. After a gunfight with police that left Smith dead, Burns was captured. Three more participants were arrested several months later.
The majority of the defendants received three consecutive sentences of 25 years to life, making them eligible for parole in the year 2058. Boudin hired Leonard Weinglass to defend her. Weinglass, a law partner of Boudin's father, arranged for a plea bargain and Boudin pled guilty to one count of felony murder and robbery, in exchange for one twenty years to life sentence.
Ayers is responsible.
Well this is good. Since John can comdemn comments and that gets him out of having those comments drag him down like an albatross I guess this means, as Obama has condemned other comments, that we won't hear sh*t about Rev. Wright should Barack be the nominee.... Right?
Devil's Advocate @ 79:
Prosecutorial misconduct can indeed keep a murderer out of jail. Sorry, folks, but Devil's Advocate has you on this point.
If a defendant has been placed in jeopardy of losing his life or liberty, and prosecutorial misconduct renders the case a mistrial, the defendant cannot again be placed in jeopardy of losing his life or liberty for the same crime. Amendment Five to the United States Constitution.
Was Ayers actually placed in jeopardy, so that he can't be placed in double jeopardy? That, I actually don't know. It would depend on the stage of the trial against him, whether a jury were empanelled.
Karen @ 88:
We may disagree on politics my friend, but you are right on this issue. Yes, he was placed in DJ. The Jury was sworn.
Devil's Advocate.
Your client called.
Says your soul came back NSF.
Devil's Advocate @ 86:
Train @ 91:
Devil's Advocate @ 92:
chuck @ 25:
you bet! just as soon as your generation gets off meth ,oral sex , cocain , and just plain to god damed to lazy to vote attitudes! give em hell!
Devil's Advocate @ 89:
Devil's Advocate @ 89:
I don't think people have done a very good job here of arguing against you on this point. The retorts have largely been ad hominem.
I take issue with your basic assertion that Obama ought to be judged by his relationship with Ayers. Human relations are too complex simply to be tossed up to "he didn't refuse to disassociate from a bad person, thus he himself is a bad person." Especially in the context of politics. Everyone associates with bad people. Everyone makes deals with bad people.
The issue becomes whether these bad people will have real influence on policy once the candidate is in office. But that's not the angle from which these issues are viewed. It's just a stupid gotcha game.
Damn, hit the button too soon.
Okay, DA - so you're admitting Ayers was never convicted of anything?
By the way, unless I miss heard it I could have sworn McCain called Ayers one of the "Wet Men"...did I mis-hear that? Did he just say weathermen really fast so it only sounded like wet men or did he have a senior moment. (as opposed to a Senor moment; one where you are an apologist for Donald Rumsfeld... look it up.
The Elite Rusty Shackleford @ 97:
Neither was Nixon, and he was pardoned.
tyree @ 94:
What's wrong with oral sex?
Karen @ 98:
True, true. And if I'm not mistaken there were hundreds of politicians with known ties to Nixon who weren't vilified because of it.
Karen @ 96:
The fundamental issue with Ayers is the many people have no idea who Obama is. They know his politics, but nothing about him. We've had 20 something debates to hear about his healthcare plan, his goal to get us out of Iraq, but many people don't have a clue who he is. So, you look to see what others think of him and who he associates with.
Many people remember the Weather Underground and then wonder why Obama didn't do something to get him off the board.
Then they wonder why Obama has associated with Ayers outside of the board meetings. Many people want someone to show character for good or for worse to take a stand. For example, when Rudy Giuliani pretty much threw Yassir Arafat out of NYC, that was the type of conduct that many people said..."I like that character." (I know many on the Left get a sick feeling from Rudy, but many people give him points from this one act).
So, for those who don't vote based on who is going to "give them" the most tax dollars, stuff like this helps them decide "Who Obama is."
Karen @ 99:
nothing if its between a man or a woman, but with donkeys!i dont think so!
The Elite Rusty Shackleford @ 97:
Yes, neither was OJ.
Devil's Advocate @ 35:
Ayers is a professor of education at the University of Chicago and he works on school reform with Mayor Daley for chrissakes. Ayers was never convicted of anything! He never killed anyone.
The Weather Underground's bomb-making session managed to kill three members of the Weather Underground, no one else. They murdered themselves.
Obama has never agreed with nor endorsed any remarks by Ayers about his political ideology or the Weather Underground. Obama has never sought his endorsement either.
But McCain has sought the endorsement of Hagee. McCain also works with televangelist Rod Parsley, who's called for the total destruction of Islam. [That's millions of people!] McCain also has on his campaign staff convicted Rick Renzi, who he refuses to fire.
oh ok man on man woman on woman but keep barnyayard animals out of it!
Train @ 91:
Bill Ayers' name isn't mentioned because he was not involved in the Brinks Robbery. DA cut and pasted that piece from the Wikipedia article about Kathy Boudin.
The Elite Rusty Shackleford @ 100:
And some who have built careers on being vilified for it.
The ultimate point is that to judge Barack Obama unfit for the presidency for serving on an anti-poverty board with someone who we might find detestable is silly.
If we really as the right questions about these kinds of associations, we should be asking what effect the association will have on the candidate's policies. With Obama, I've seen no evidence whatsoever, that Ayers is going to influence Obama to kill Americans. With McCain, someone really ought to be asking him whether a reverend who desires Armageddon and whose endorsement he sought, will be influencing his policy vis-a-vis war and peace, especially in the Middle East. That's what I really care about.
Devil's Advocate @ 103:
Also very true. Shall we hold it against Leslie Neilsen that he and OJ starred in the Naked Gun movies together? Because that's pretty much the stretch you're asking us to make.
As Karen pointed out, your problem is your basic premise - that Obama's limited association with Bill Ayers is something we should be "concerned about." So maybe you'll do us a favor: connect the dots. What are you saying it means? And I mean specifically, not just "concerns about Obama's judgment." Are you saying that Obama must be a murderer, or a terrorist, because he served on a board with Bill Ayers?
And if not, then where's the beef?
Devil's Advocate @ 101:
Yeah, that is what a lot of people vote on. They don't want to know the substance of his policies or what actions he will take on behalf of the country when president. They want to know him personally. I find that absurd. We don't know any of them personally. We don't really know who any of these candidates "are."
And if you can be hip to a candidate because he can figure out he'll be lauded as tough for tossing out an unpopular world figure, you're too easily manipulated. You don't know "who Giuliani is" because of his actions toward Arafat.
I'm pretty sure we all know and associate with people who would be political liabilities for us if we ever ran for office. We understand why we remain loyal to them anyway, because we're so close to the situation. We're not close to the lives of others, so we're less forgiving without knowing all the facts.
So, yeah, gimme substance. I want to know how the tax dollars are going to be spent, which wars will be started, whether my health costs are going to skyrocket, etc. I don't need to get a vibe on Obama or feel like I know who he is for that. Or McCain.
McCain bombed from 35 thousand feet. He has actually killed people. He liked doing it.
I don't think he wants to go down this road.
The Elite Rusty Shackleford @ 108:
Well, except that Nielsen associated with Simpson before Simpson killed anyone.
Seriously, if Obama got together with O.J. Simpson right now, and had Simpson endorse him, would it bother you? Be honest.
It's not so much that associations are illegitimate issues per se. It does matter what Obama's close and personal pastor of 20 years thinks and wants done matters if that pastor's thoughts and actions are going to affect Obama's presidency.
But those are the questions that need to be asked. The media could have treated Rev.Wright's words in a mature fashion, interviewed him, and asked Obama what his influence truly was. Instead, we get superficial, tabloid, gotcha journalism, which isn't journalism at all.
Karen @ 109:
Very well said! Devil's Advocate won't learn about any of the candidates by listening to the MSM spin nonsense. If you want to know what a candidate stands for, then read up on their voting records, their policies and their speeches.
Karen @ 111:
Yeah, that occurred to me later. Bad example.
Heh, you know what would come up for me if I ran for office? My association with John Yoo.
I studied under him. I had friendly chats with him. I quoted some of his stuff for papers I wrote on the Constitution, and I wasn't condemning him when I did so.
Likewise, he was impressed with my Constitutional theories.
And....I detest him for how he has enabled the Bush Administration.
And....in about a year or so, he'll have completely forgotten who I was, if he hasn't already.
But, oh, if the media ever got a hold of those facts, and thought they could twist it into something more than it was, you can bet your fortunes they'd do it.
Karen @ 114:
Oh-oh, neocon by association! :-)
Read Bob altemeyer's book, "The Authoritarians", on-line. You'll recognize McCain's personality being described, notably, under compartmentalized thinking.
http://home.cc.umanitoba.ca/~altemey/
I think it is quite possible to render oneself effectively insane solely through intellectual dishonesty.
Karen @ 114:
Karen - If you are thinking of ruinning for office, do so. You have a superb mind and you understand the value of principles. You could easily handle the kind of inspipd nonsense that the press could throw at you. Just my opinion.
The Elite Rusty Shackleford @ 106:
That's Conservative Journalism (TM) for you! Guilt by control-c and control-v!
The Elite Rusty Shackleford @ 101:
Like Dick Cheney and Donald "Often-Wrong" Rumsfeld.
Or G. Gordon Liddy. Who served time in prison for his ass-wiping of the Constitution, but still gets his own radio show and proudly interviews people like John McCain without somehow staining them as if they'd been passed through his filth-encrusted colon.
Devil's Advocate @ 104:
Jesus you're a shithead. Neither were 260,000,000 other Americans. I guess by your logic they're all guilty too!!!
Devil's Advocate @ 86:
Wait, how do you figure that? The Brinks Robbery was committed in 1981. Ayers and his wife were purged from the Weather Underground in the mid-70s.
So the Weather Underground, which had kicked him out some five or so years before, was still taking orders from Ayers? I find that hard to believe, prosecutorial misconduct or no. Do you have any proof for this assertion? The only responsibility I see for the Brinks Robbery on the part of Ayers was that he took responsibility to care for Kathy Boudin's child while she was in prison.
Finally, since you seem to believe that you shall know the candidate by his distant ties, may I hear you condemn and rebuke John McCain for accepting money from the lobbyist company from which Jack Abramoff did all his dirty deals?
McGrandpa McCranky (spittle forming at the corners of his mouth, finger waving in the air): Why... why... why... Barack Obama is nothing but a juvenile deliquent!
29 Devil’s Advocate Says:
When I see a handle like "Devil's Advocate," before reading any further, I know it means opinionated asshole. Let's see.
TDF says, "Do you think Obama is a patriot?"McCain says he does but he's upset that Obama compared William Ayers to Tom Coburn. Why? They are both apparently CRAZY. Coburn says that lesbians make it unsafe for children to go to the bathroom. McCain's like, "Why doesn't Obama condemn him!" (Uhm, he did!) But what about Hagee? McCain says it was probably a mistake to accept his endorsement BUT WHATEVER. Too late now! I guess!
126 CoIntelPro against DIVISIVE DEMS. Says: ...They are both apparently CRAZY. Coburn says that lesbians make it unsafe for children to go to the bathroom.
==========================
Funny. It turns out, Republican Senators make it unsafe for boys to use the bathroom.
Devil's Advocate @ 50:
Correct me if i am wrong, but The Weathermen was only active 1969-1975 in which no one was hurt by the attacks. 6 years later in 1981 some former members including Kathy Boudin made a nonpolitical bank heist in which 3 people was killed.
A.J.Joe @ 128:
The Weather Underground blew up an ROTC building at night without realizing there was a night watchmen inside who was indeed killed. The weather underground blew their own house up in New York City which killed three of its members.
Violence whether it is with bombs strapped onto your chest are launched at extreem distances from the most sophisticated aircraft Martin Marrietta can design is not the answer.
Poor little granpa. I guess that senile dementia is finally starting to set in.
Another note on this...
"William Ayers Weather Underground past no big deal in Chicago." Lynn Sweet, Chicago Sun-Times. April 18, 2008
http://blogs.suntimes.com/sweet/2008/04/_william_ayers_weather_undergr.html
"Ayers, who became a scholar at the University of Illinois-Chicago, was also eventually embraced by a pragmatic son of blue-collar Bridgeport desperately trying to upgrade Chicago's chronically troubled schools: Mayor Daley, whose father's legacy was tarnished because of anti-Vietnam War protesters getting clobbered in the 1968 convention and the "Days of Rage" the next year.
Rabbi Arnold Jacob Wolf knew Ayers in the 1960s and re-met Ayers and Dohrn decades later. In the 1960s Wolf said he and Ayers were on opposite sides of the use of violence to effect social change. Then, Ayers thought it useful. Wolf came out of the school of nonviolence."
And ask McGramps to chill on the anger thing. He was blinking so often to control his nervous anger this morning, it was distracting. You know he wanted to say something, but he probably thought the sympathetic or frightened interviewer had http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/04/19/AR200804... on his mind.
Nope. That's simply false.
It is true that there is a temporary surge in capital sales, and therefore the tax collected, directly after the implementation of a capital gains tax cut. This surge consists mostly of sales that would have taken place before the cut was implemented, but were delayed to take advantage of the cut.
As you are aware, any tax law changes take time to get through Congress, signed by the President and then implemented; during that time, many investors hold their sales for obvious reasons. As a result, there is a drop in tax collections before the implementation, and a brief increase afterwards. Thus when you compare the before-and-after, it looks like there was an increase in collections, when actually there was merely a deferral.
All the evidence is that, after this surge, economic activity goes back to normal, and capital gains collections fall. In the long run, you end up with less tax collected overall.
Those are the facts. If you look only at the short period before and after the tax change, you'll see a bump, but it's an illusion.
And BTW if it were true that people won't buy and sell stocks when the the capital gains rate is 28%, well ... by the same logic, people won't work for wages when the income tax is 28%. Do you know anyone who works for wages?
My guess is that McCain's approach will work quite well with the American people.
Hagee = religious (aka good)
Ayers = terrorist (aka bad)
Obama has not figured out how to answer these questions in a way that will convince most Americans. He's articulate giving a prepared speech, but not in extemporaneous responses to criticism.
McCain just fires off a non-stop barrage of verbiage overwhelming the questioner.
Unless Obama changes his approach, I'm afraid he is a goner.
I liked his laugh at the end when he realized that he wasn't making any focking sense.
McCain thinks it's great to have a reconciliation with people he doesn't agree with, and it's great to seek endorsements from people he later claims not to agree with....then says democrats shouldn't talk to people they disagree with.
That sounds about right.
D A needs to move to China if he doesn't believe in the presumption of innocence and trials being decided by reasonable doubt.
and brings babies into life
Is this the pro-choice mccain saying that Sen. Coburn is helping women give birth? Or is this the pro-life mccain saying Sen. Coburn is running around getting women pregnant? Inquiring minds want to know!
" I condemn remarks that are, in any way, viewed as anti-anything. But thanks for asking."
Yes, thanks Stephanopoulos, for letting McCain get away with a line like this, so vapid, so meaningless, as to border on self-parody - Is W.S. Gilbert or George S. Kaufmann writing Mccain's script? But Stephanopoulos just sits there like a dummy.
But how can you countenance someone who was engaged in bombings which could have or did kill innocent people?
This from a man who slaughtered tens of thousands of innocent Vietnamese with his own illegal bombings. What a loser this clown is.
McCain can solicit endoresements from anyone he wants, regardless of how evil/crazy those people might be. He was a POW. Enough said. (snark)
ysbaddaden @ 136:
And if he thinks a mistrial means the defendant gets off the hook. But that's all beside the point anyway - the core question is, assuming Obama did serve on a board with Ayers, so what? A question for which the Devil's Advocate appears to have no answer.
xoites defends Constitution @ 129:
Remember, unlike the run of the mill homegrown terrorist, Ayers and the Weather Underground at least has the decency to inform the authorities prior to the detonation of a bomb so that all innocents could be evacuated.
Although I do no personally condone bombing under ANY circumstances, the critical thinkers might recall that at the time, our president expanded the bombing of Vietnam to neighboring Cambodia--bombing thousands upon thousands of innocents. Oh wait... that's right... I forgot... all the little kids that had their organs blasted through their bowels and their skin melted from their limbs had yellow skin an slanted eyes, right? Probably makes it okay then. Never mind.
I don't care what the Weather Underground did forty years ago, and I don't much care what John Hagee says about the Catholic Church. What worries me is that Hagee is a fundamentalist religious tentacles of a far right military, political and economic octopus that backs John McCain and wants to secure American interests in the Middle East by the first use of nuclear weapons, which is the logic extension of its preemptive war doctrine.
(bitter & angry 67%) Edwin Hussein @ 127:
*fixed it*
MCCAIN: I’m glad to have his endorsement. I condemn remarks that are, in any way, viewed as anti-anything.
Is this guy an intellectual light-weight or what?
I for one, thinks its great....the people are listening..they are sick of it, see through it...I don't see how McSame and Georgie can put any sort of a "good" spin on this conversation....just keep using these arrogant, hypocritical talking points..the people are listening
McCondemn
You weak minded just don't understand this. It is different when I seek out and enjoy a lunatic hateful paster for the votes he can bring me and I can promise to give him your tax dollars if president to further his hate.
But that Obama elitist liberal swank has no right to know anyone or get the support from anybody. Because McCain as some sort of Christian doesn't forgive unless it benefits himself only. Come on, you guys, you got to reach out to McCain on this hate of others.
McCain can't tell you or is unable to tel you why you should vote FOR him. He can just try to get you to hate the opponents enough to vote AGAIBST them, which he sees as a vote for McHypocrite.
And the questions that should have been asked but weren't: Are you repentent about the bombings you were involved in during the same era? And whose bombs do you think killed more people, yours or Mr. Ayers?
The awesome world we live in:
The difference between saying you disagree with someone and saying you condemn them is huge. Apparently saying "I condemn" is so strong, you can actively seek someone's endorsement as long as you condemn the controversial stuff. Right on, John McCain! It's like how you can vote against MLK day and still invoke the man to sell the war you so desperately want with Iran in a perversion of logic and history so incredible it threatens to tear through the space-time continuum.
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