The law should probably be followed - on a case-by-case basis
By Steve Benen Sunday Apr 27, 2008 7:30amJohn Yoo may no longer be in the Bush administration, but his arguments for letting administration officials break the law when they think they should have apparently lingered inside the Justice Department.
The Justice Department has told Congress that American intelligence operatives attempting to thwart terrorist attacks can legally use interrogation methods that might otherwise be prohibited under international law.
The legal interpretation, outlined in recent letters, sheds new light on the still-secret rules for interrogations by the Central Intelligence Agency. It shows that the administration is arguing that the boundaries for interrogations should be subject to some latitude, even under an executive order issued last summer that President Bush said meant that the C.I.A. would comply with international strictures against harsh treatment of detainees.
While the Geneva Conventions prohibit “outrages upon personal dignity,” a letter sent by the Justice Department to Congress on March 5 makes clear that the administration has not drawn a precise line in deciding which interrogation methods would violate that standard, and is reserving the right to make case-by-case judgments.
Case-by-case judgments, of course, opens the door pretty wide. It creates a legal dynamic in which interrogators can utilize illegal methods on detainees, and the administration prefers that they have a certain “flexibility” (my word, not theirs).
“The fact that an act is undertaken to prevent a threatened terrorist attack, rather than for the purpose of humiliation or abuse, would be relevant to a reasonable observer in measuring the outrageousness of the act,” said Brian A. Benczkowski, a deputy assistant attorney general, in the letter, which had not previously been made public.
In other words, “Torture for bad reasons isn’t the same thing as torture for good reasons. On the prior, the law matters. On the latter, not so much.”
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second!
DAMN!
Whats the phrase that republicans hate so much??? Oh yes "Situational Ethics".
Just another way to say "The ends justifies the means."
That's such a great line...
"We're not doing this just to humiliate or abuse them, but it's to gain information. Therefore, it's alright!"
So, as long as I apologise and tell the torturee that "I'm really not enjoying this. This is hurting me as much if not more than it hurts you. Please just give me the information I need and we can both stop this!", it's alright!
Insane...
I cannot see a more clear endictment for war crimes. This shit that they are in just keeps geting better and better. The Hague better clear the next 5 years for trials. And the first fu(ker up is Consigliere James Baker who got us into this fu(ked up mess to being with.
So, when Japanese troops waterboarded captured US soldiers for purposes of gaining information - they were in fact innocent of war crimes? I guess the Gestapo got a pretty bad rap, too - they also primarily wanted information.
Hey, if UN members have problems with violations of the Geneva convention they could always sanction the US. But of course they're never going to.
Remember, America does not torture. It just does a lot of things that are a lot like torture and were called torture before this administration came into power, but it's not torture! Just ask Dana Perino.
Case by case basis? Sounds a lot like IOKIYAR
I hope everyone who still has a primary coming up that is sickened by this administration's torturing individuals will remember Hillary's answer to the question about torture. She said that it depended on the circumstances. As I have said before, anyone who finds the illegal tactics employed by this administration best pay attention because if Hillary manages to steal this election IT WILL BE MORE OF THE SAME. As far as this administration goes, it depends on the circumstances.
It sounds like the same reasoning used by the Supreme Court when it decides to decide on Presidential Elections.
RepubAnon @ 6:
The Japanese and Germans were godless heathens so they were differant from America. We waterboard for god because we all know the good christian god is on Americas side.
“The fact that an act is undertaken to prevent a democratically elected Democratic President from taking office, rather than for the purpose of humiliation or abuse, would be relevant to a reasonable observer in measuring the outrageousness of the act.”
Its really easy to find out if an action is over the line. Just ask the person authorizing it, publicly, if it would be ok if that action were committed upon our troops or countrypeople while held by an enemy power.
diamondmc @ 12:
Oh so the Islamo-fasicsts who torture are NOT violating Geneva either. I see. Must make our troops feel real good, out there on the line.
UN-fu(king-believable!!!!!!
Laws are really just guidelines.
99Luf Balloons @ 15:
I guess you would be in favor of murdering the children of people who kill children?
You either believe in laws governing human rights or you don't. Pointing your finger at what a criminal is doing will not change that.
99Luf Balloons @ 15:
I guess you don't understand sarcasm when you see it? And by the way who are the Islamo-fasicsts? Are the Iragi people Islomo-fasicsts? Are all middle east people Islamo-fasicsts? Just wondering who you are talking about.
99Luf Balloons @ 15:
Something is making the troops feel bad although i doubt it is this.
1000 veterans a month attempt suicide.
33 attempt suicide every day.
15 succeed.
xoites (Bitter before Country was Cool) defends Constitution @ 19:
Sorry, 18 succeed. 15 survive.
Let's see:
trea·son (tr¶“z…n) n. 1. Violation of allegiance toward one's country or sovereign, especially the betrayal of one's country by waging war against it or by consciously and purposely acting to aid its enemies. 2. A betrayal of trust or confidence. [Middle English, from Anglo-Norman treson, from Latin tr³diti½, tr³diti½n-, a handing over. See TRADITION.]
With their interpretation in place, and seeing that bush, cheney et al seem to fit into the above category, can we then torture them during the questioning that will hopefully follow?
If we really want to save the imminent deaths of Ameicans instead of torturing people perhaps we should figure this out:
Suicide Epidemic Among Veterans.
Or we could prevent the imminent deaths of Americans, we seem to be saving their deaths just fine.
xoites (Bitter before Country was Cool) defends Constitution @ 22:
Finding out your country mislead you into a a war for profit, based on lies and deceit, seeing your buddies blown up, knowing that some of your rounds killed innocents, and then coming home and finding out the government won't answer your calls to the VA or give you the proper care might make anyone want to kill themselves.
♣Bangkok Bob♠ @ 24:
Perhaps we should direct our anger at the Bush'ofascists?
xoites (Bitter before Country was Cool) defends Constitution @ 22:
Very sad
We need to stop pretending that we are a civilized nation.
The way to begin an investigation of Yoo is filing a grievance against him in D.C. or Pennsylvania where he holds his licenses. The Grievance Project walks you through the filing if you're interested.
How about, “Assassination for bad reasons isn’t the same thing as assassination for good reasons. On the prior, the law matters. On the latter, not so much???” Does that work?? Just asking. I could think of several good reasons, and so could another 6,660,000,000 people on the planet. Only 28% (and only Americans) left supporting BushCo.
Remember, these are people who feel that beating their wives is completely reasonable so long as it preserves Family Values.
No. 44 @ 27:
or start acting like one
How old are these fucking idiots? It's only a crime if you don't cross your fingers and say the magic words first? Surely they don't actually believe this ridiculous crap? Oh who am I kidding of course they do.
The Geneva Conventions also say there are no exemptions for circumstances.
Laws should be the law period, or there is no law at all.
Remember, "Ignorance of the law is no excuse"?
Now extenuating circumstances can be determined case-by-case.
a board , a rag and gallons of water are waiting ,,,,, for mr. yoo
A Nation of Laws....
House Judiciary to investigate Rove’s alleged effort to get Fitzgerald fired
http://thinkprogress.org/2008/04/28/house-judiciary-to-investigate-roves...
We have not forgotten about this one either...
Good People of Alabama:
You have the rest of
THE UNION TO HELP YOU
http://www.youtube.com/v/SrJnWTNAn20
http://rawstory.com/news/2008/Siegelman_Rove_hijacked_Dept._of_Justice_0...
Law = Optional.
Here's a question; how many Republican Businessmen think the same way? Occasionally, when they screw up really badly, they are drug off in shackles and chains; but for the most part, they get away with all sorts of wrong doing. I think this is; because, we spend billions of dollars arresting poor people for smoking a joint and we, as a society, largely ignore corporate criminals. It just goes to show that you can get away with anything if you grease the right palms or have the right friends.
Here's my solution; we take half of our police officers and send them to school to learn accounting then we set them loose upon Corporate America. This seems fair to me. Half our cops can harass drunks and skateboarders; the other half can go after the rich and powerful.
My immediate and continued reaction to this is: Our "criminal" Justice Department gave our "criminal" government the right to use "criminal" torture on people who should never have been put in prison, in the first place.
In other words, the criminals gave the criminals the right to commit criminal acts which can even kill people, with no real knowledge of any crime commited by those persons, or even any real intent to do so. What have we become?
foolme1ns @ 16:
From Albert Camus:
Though it may be true that, at least in history, values, be they of a nation or of humanity as a whole, do not survive unless we fight for them, neither combat (nor force) can alone suffice to justify them. Rather, it must be the other way: the fight must be justified and guided by those values. We must fight for the truth and we must take care not to kill it with the very weapons we use in its defense. It is this doubled price that we must pay in order that our words assume once more their proper power."
Nuff said.
Under certain unalienable laws of the United States, the President and I have equal rights both to protection of the laws and an obligation to uphold them. Yet, the President claims the right to suspend those rights, to have me secretly arrested, tortured, held indefinitely incommunicado, and even put to death without due process of law. All at his whim. I, on the other hand, am at risk of arbitrary arrest if someone claims I have verbally threatened him or for merely dissenting publicly from his usurpation of power. Since I am no respecter of wealth and power's claim to de facto aristocracy and am unwilling to accept the malfeasant governance of such people, let alone their rule, I have a problem and so do you.
we have institutions set up to change laws. if you don't like a law, go through the motions to change it. until then all laws must be followed to the letter!!
.
What about the case by case basis where a detainee went in alive and didn't come out alive?
.
Has our legal system really degraded to this point? That any judge in the country would uphold this twisted non-legal reasoning. Does this mean if I rob a bank to feed the poor instead of for a carbibean vacation it's OK? Sure sounds it to me!
sulphurdunn well said!!
If one considers that John Yoo in effect was advocating violating the constitution and military regulations, not to mention rule of law, why is he still practicing law, and worse, why is he teaching? Why isn't he disbarred and stripped of his license? He has not acted like an American citizen, he has acted more like a terrorist. Everyone should write to the ABA and scream.
36 The Smiths Says:
A Nation of Laws….
=======================
I read this far, and started laughing. (Then I started crying.)
Nothing will happen to Yoo or any of the criminals currently in power. If you still think this is a nation of laws you are naive. Sad, isn't it?
in my dreams I saw John Yoo 'n his ilk reap the fetid seeds they've sown .
Message to CIA: the Cold War is over. Al Qaeda is not the Soviet Union, and as someone said, religion is like a nail: the harder you hit it, the deeper it goes.
what law ? Bush and Cheney are the law now in case you have not noticed .
?
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