Hillary schools Bill O'Reilly on Universal healthcare
By SilentPatriot Wednesday Apr 30, 2008 10:00pm
Hillary Clinton doesn't bite when BillO tries to bully her into admitting that her health care plan would "bankrupt the country." In fact, she quickly shuts down his straw man argument and schools him on why providing quality health care to all Americans is a moral issue while explaining clearly how she intends to pay for it.
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"If we don't [pass universal health care], we'll meet here again in five or ten years, we'll have more uninsured people, the prices will have continued to go up because we will not have put into place the safeguards and the accountability that our health care system needs."
John Amato: BillO tries to use the age old "socialism" conservative talking point when describing any form of universal health care, but that doesn't hold up to the realities of everyday life in our country because people are struggling just to fill up their gas tanks let alone trying to carry incredibly high health care insurance costs for their families. And the idiotic tax break proposed by John McCain will have zero impact on the problem.
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Fuck Bill O'Reilly!!!
My oh my how life goes on.
I heard on the radio earlier today that tomorrow (May 2nd) is NATIONAL HONESTY DAY, which means that Faux News apparently will be off the air for 24 hours, I guess.
And everyone in the Bush administration will have to "Shut Up!!!" for 24 hours, and Dana Perino will have to forego any press conference tomorrow. Whooopee!!
BTW, how does one know when someone in the Bush administration is lying? Their lips are moving..
How sweet to see the tables turned. I love how she kicks O'reilly ass with a smile. What depressing is how the Obmaniacs only respond with shrill screams about "Billary the bitch" (exact quote from Americablog) and "Shillary is such an elitist she doesn't know how to operate a cappuccino machine". I'm so sick of the misogynistic attacks.
Hillary is so much smarter on this subject than big ugly. Or any subject.
I like that Hillary.
Pass on the Iraq war Hillary.
Imperfect world eh?
In Canada our health care system works very well. The only problem here is that people over use the free care. IMO universal health care is a right and not something to be run for profit. But people do have to start taking better care of themselves and not burden the system with diseases that are preventable, such as smoke related illness.
BillO and McInsane and all the other assholes who don’t want to do anything about healthcare (have you heard what McFuckhead’s plan for healthcare is?) do not care about it because…. They have the BEST God Damn health insurance that there is. They have no worries about it. Throw them out on the streets with not enough money to fill their gas tanks and buy a decent meal for their families and then break their fucking arm and send them off to try to get it fixed. Oh make sure they have a house so that it can be taken away. These jerks (I only use the word jerk because I don’t want to swear) do not care about anybody but themselves. Why would a person vote for somebody like McCain who has no idea? And why would that same person watch O’Shithead and quote him to his friends?
One day Rev. Wright is Obama's personal pastor and 20-year friend presiding at his wedding and baptising his daughters. Next day he is a "hateful", "divisive", and evil demonic monster. I hate to see what Obama does to his 'real' friends.
Just so we're clear, H Clinton is also in favor of the gas tax sham.
Ah the sweet smell of pandering......................
Way to go Hillary Clinton on Health Care! This is the way to shut down the wingnut extremist, big mouth bullying liar, Lord of the Lunitic Fringe, BillO Lielly.. Once you can get a word in edgewise, you state the truth, the facts (add a pinch of common sense) and you don't back down and Whaala! The big baby starts whining.......
Sheila @ 4:
Things aren't looking to good for Obama right now. He'd be a great Prez but he's getting his "political education"
Anyone ( even Mccrazy) could school billio on any subject
I am very bitter about this.
Well, at least the economy is doing well.
Sheila @ 4:
50 something and older female baby boomers need to realize that the world doesnt revolve around them.
You cant translate the typical female matriarchal family structure to government and everything.
HRC had eight years to pass UHC, she got bought off and sidetracked by the lobbyists,
a third real term and enforced insurances premiums for people who can barely afford to eat and pay their utility bills would be insane and cruel.
A social health care program (UHC) with everybody in it is the only fair way in a modern country.
U.S. Constitution:
There's no way to provide for the PUBLIC HEALTH without Universal Health Care - provided at government (tax-payer) expense.
If all the whiners want to call the US Constitution a SOCIALIST DOCUMENT .. so be it.
Nowhere in the US Constitution does it say that Capitalism (ie Corporate Fascism) should be our economic system. In fact it sounds a lot more like a Democratic Socialist document.
Until profit is removed from the Health Care System the American Public will continue to have poor health.
Listen--America is in a deep rut--a snick hole.O'reily was right--how are you going to pay for it? But the @ss give her an out--there is 15-20% fraud.
Now consider this---Iraq/Afaghistan invasion bill has not been paid for $3 trillion ++,American Pisso is becoming worthless--Iran says--No oil in Pissos.Now,Hillary--how are you going to pay for free meds,when your country is FKN broke?
Captain Bitter Elitist Hussein Kangaroo @ 14:
I'm out of outrage. I'm just bitter now too.
Sheila @ 4:
Ditto!
Sheila @ 4:
How dare you. Why don't you spend your time critiquing John McCain instead of baiting those who would care to vote for Obama instead of Clinton. I'm so sick of you people.
Marty @ 6:
war = lovely profits
MountainMan23 @ 17:
well said
For the love of God, UHC is not the second coming of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, BillO! And if we state that UHC can't be paid for, what do we shellack out money for to slaughter Iraqis and Afghans for, hmm? What in Hell alternate reality does BillO live in? The sheer hate at Hillary makes me want to vote for her, dammit. And I don't even like her!
Sheila @ 4:
So you thought that you would give them credit by quoting them? That is some sickness.
Boop @ 15:
Walmart and Bestbuy shareholders are ecstatic, all those lovely tax 'refunds' (pay back later in higher taxes)
H.R. 676
This bill, co-sponsered by Conyers and Kucinich provides for Universal, Single Payer, health insurance.
It provides health care for everyone, and it pays for itself by dealing the health insurance industry right out of the deck.
Call your congressperson, and if s/he tries to palm off the "Socialized Medicine" on you (which your congressperson does enjoy for himself), thank s/him for his forthright response and inform s/him you intend to find his replacement.
Sheila @ 4:
------------------------
WOW now I know why i ended my time at Ablog. That comment made was very pissy and insultive. John has gone downhill since it became a ´´private war´´ for him with obama and hillary. I am glad i came back here after almost 5 yrs leaving. Now to get on with it,, I think hillary did rather well with Billy boy. Its time to do whats right for the ameircan dems, not because one blog hates another. Lets not have another Mike DIkokis event and see it all fall into flames.
Best regards.. and now iam off to work. take alles and danke C&L for a excellent blog. One that does not spread candy around a certian prez running for the nomination!
ttyl
:)
Jesse @ 9:
Wow, where did that come from and how irrelevant to the topic at hand. I understand...the end is near...you see it and you're bitter. You win some, and you lose some. Obama survived again and it's killing you. Don't worry, Hillary...I mean Karl Rove will create another "scandal" soon. Good luck pal. LOL.
Jesse @ 9:
I am confused. Was Obama on the show too or have I found troll droppings?
General_Rennenkampf @ 23:
A few things the next administration needs to do, inclusive UHC, a living minimum wage, reduce the subsidies to fat cat industries and farmers etc,
sensible financial policies, and no overseas wars of aggression and reduce the US military down to a world average and used for defense only.
and go back to the UN and talk world peace and WORLD disarmament.
I don't get what all the Hillary cheering is about.
She won a point in a spitting contest? Whoo hoo!
She was first lady for 8 years, which she counts as "experience", during which time she met secretly (like Cheney and his energy guys) with insurance companies or god knows who.
She's been US senator for 8 years, and in those 16 years of "experience", what has she accomplished towards the goal of "universal health care"? It's worse than ever!
It's VERY misleading to call these plans universal health *care*.
It's not universal, and it's not care.
At best it's (private) insurance reform proposals which don't stand a chance of passing.
These so called *universal health care* plans are nothing more than giveaways to the insurance companies and pharmaceutical companies on the backs of those who can't even afford the bare minimum of (private) health insurance as it is.
Yet she will mandate that you buy it, or else be fined or have your wages garnished.
But hooray for Hillary for standing up to billo. Way to go, hill.
I'm bitter too.
Sheila @ 4:
I was undecided. Watching Hillary go through that spoon fed interview with Bill convinced me to vote for Obama. I'm not going to vote for any candidate that Fox News supports. It was sickening to watch.
Jesse @ 9:
Wasn't Obama a state and now national senator in his day job, while the Rev. Wright stayed in Chicago? Kinda a big commute just to go that church every Sunday from his jobs, what with his family and all.
Please, at least think before posting a talking point that sounds good and then collapses at first thought.
I think what honks me off the most about Bill Orally is that his shows are never live - always recorded, and thus edited. At least Olbermann & some others have the nuts to go live.
That said, has Orally commented on his "interview" with Clinton on tonight's program? I'm sure he got some kicks in since no one would be around to argue with him.
"And the idiotic tax break proposed by John McCain will have zero impact on the problem".
You mean the idiotic tax break proposed by McCain and endorsed by Clinton? That one?
John Amato: BillO tries to use the age old “socialism” conservative talking point when describing any form of universal health care
True but basically BillO uses the socialism tag to describe most anything liberal. You get between him getting richer and his making America the kind of "traditional" country he thinks it should be and you're a socialist or worse.
Speaking of worse, BillO pulled a nasty one tonight when discussing the DC Madam's death. He said she (Palfrey) was trying to ruin the lives of the men on her list for no apparent reason and that her death was karma catching up with her. He said she should have paid the price and kept her mouth shut. Damn man, that's cold.
Socialism? I for one think we need socialism, and I don't give a fug what anybody thinks about that.
ezpz @ 31:
At the company where I work, we had a 40% increase in the cost of our HI premiums, company absorbed 15% we got a 25% increase.
So a lot of the younger or single people have dropped their HI and are now uninsured, they get injured and they are screwed.
What government can operate without some vestige of 'socialism'? If I were religious, I would quote the part about being my brother's keeper. Are we to kick the unfortunates into the gutter? Or are we so self centered as to be demanding to keep everything for ourselves?
Oh, and as Chaz #10 pointed out and worthy of another mention for the record, Hillary is also for the same gas tax gimmick as Mccain - the one that experts, pundits, politicians of both parities think is irresponsible.
Oblagon @ 37:
Certainly our unrestrained capitalism's heading for a big fall....
Tactic: Take someone's strength and make it into a weakness. Boy, has that been a golden mantra for the right.
Stevens @ 36:
Its almost a given that she was murdered by forces working for her ex clients.
Billo and everybody in the MSM knows this and is sending out a message to any whistle blower or possible dissedent.
LaFajita @ 26:
I didn't even know this existed. There's even a web page!
http://www.hr676.org/
RIP Deborah Jean Palfrey, may your killers rot in hell.
here's my gripe with that "socialism" response to a universal hc proposal from the majority of conservatives:
a universal hc system would relieve a tremendous amount of expenses on businesses. crippling expenses.
why on earth does our current system (or lack thereof) seem to be good enough?
Um, Hillary supports the gas tax break too
After watching Hillary take it to O'Reilly...she is our best candidate....
check it out gang.....and spread the word.....
electoral maps dated May 1
http://www.electoral-vote.com/evp2008/Obama/Maps/May01.html
(Obama 243 - McCain 269 - Tied 26)
and then check
http://www.electoral-vote.com/evp2008/Clinton/Maps/May01.html
(Clinton 291- McCain 247)
Obama goes on FOX and folds like a cheap suit ... Clinton goes on FOX and puts BillO in his place ... gee, I wonder which one should be president???
Go Hillary!
BAC
My apologies to C&L in advance and if you must delete I am sorry.
OReilly is a dirty rotten #$%&^&* liar with his it will bankrupt the country bs. Like his trillion dollar invasion of Iraq is a profit center. Give me a break!
Sensitive issue for me as I have a deaf daughter and am denied equal access to health insurance.
Go f*&k youeself, BillO.
(edited. I try to keep the profanity down where I see it. I'm so sorry about your daughter.)
1. Did Bill coach Hillary in how to respond to Fox? If 'yes' - Good Job Bill.
2. Why is there no mention of anybody looking at what the rest of the world does about Healthcare. Holland supposedly has the best system. Why doesn't someone involve Michael Moore, who apparently has looked at many systems? Is it that Michael Moore is much hated because he continues to expose the republicans' ineptitude?
Too bad that the greedy capitalists have tagged socialism as a dirty word.
Michael Moore explained the French system on LKL yesterday.
Maybe they pay more taxes as we know them, but they get REAL universal health care, and higher education for those taxes.
If we were to factor in what we pay for health care premiums, copays, etc, AND the exorbitant cost of higher education, we pay tons more than they do and get much less for the buck.
Oblagon @ 37:
socialism is the future. capitalism is the new dinosaur and that will become apparent in the next few months.
If only Hilary spent as much energy fighting Fox as she does MoveOn, Keith Olbermann etc. Making Bill look like an ass isn't really all that challenging anyway.
BAC @ 49:
Sure, performing on FOX should determine who is our next President. Dumb ass troll.
General_Rennenkampf @ 23:
MountainMan23 @ 17:
ferrofluid @ 16:
Three excellently stated comments. The hope is that liberals will remember that both H. Clinton and Obama's health care plans will continue to leave the insurance and pharmaceutical companies in the equation, which places profits over the needs of the people in this country. Perhaps this is the reason why the corporate media and Clinton and Obama are terrified that Nader should receive a public forum to air his views [such as his single payer health care system and his advocating the total and immediate withdrawal of troops from that slaughterhouse in Iraq], since that would expose how the two major Democratic candidates are so beholden to the corporate interests, which wants the insurance and drug companies to continue to reign supreme.
She owned him.
BAC @ 49:
Obama did that badly on Faux ! Whowouldhavethunkit, we all warned him to stay away from that place.
Facts?
Jesse @ 9:
Um, yeah, what does this have to do with HRC, BOR or healthcare?
Tomorrow someone will ask you if you would like some more water, and you will say "One day Rev. Wright is Obama's personal pastor and 20-year friend presiding at his wedding and baptising his daughters. Next day he is a "hateful", "divisive", and evil demonic monster. I hate to see what Obama does to his 'real' friends."
Knucklehead!
They talk about who, between Obama and Hillary, won which state in the primary. Does this really matter in the general election? If the number of misogynists and the number of racists within the Democratic party are about equal, it does not matter. The only 2 questions then remain will the higher number of those two equal the number of Ann Coulters, who claimed she would vote for Hillary if McCain was the repulsive candidate, and how many more new voters registered as Democrats than repusives. This is hoping that must will proceed with my attitude: I will vote for anyone but McCain or any repulsive.
When will Billo ask for privatizing the police and the schoolsystem?
For the record, HRC did not "put Billo in his place," as some have suggested. Actually, it was a trap and HRC fell right into it. BillO got exactly what he wanted from this interview. (1) He pushed the Limbaugh-Hannity-BillO conspiracy which consists of supporting the HRC candidacy in the hope of helping to stretch the Dems race -- so to have the party implode in internal fighting. (2) He legitimized his own tv program and his personal right wing stance as a "fair and balanced" interviewer. (3) He got HRC to say the stupidest things, such as "God bless the rich."
She absolutely took him behind the woodshed and spanked him. And, she did it without changing her demeanor; it was done with class and a smile.
She's for the gas tax break if we take the money from the oil companies. What a concept. They just posted record-breaking profits.
I'd like to see Obama take on O'Reilly. He just did a puff piece with Meredith V. Let's see him face the Lion's Den.
Um, John - you forgot to mention that Hillary is supporting that 'idiotic tax break' too. But I know it just slipped your mind, right?
Healthcare went south once government got involved 35 or so years ago. They completely messed it up.
There is no free market in healthcare, and no matter how much anyone cries about it, whines about it, or thinks anything but negativity towards it, the ultimate fact remains that only by totally opening up healthcare services to whoever wants to provide it, as well as allowing anyone to seek out the jealthcare services from them, can we have any chance of saving healthcare.
People who have no idea how society works usually try to claim that anyone who speaks out against healthcare is an empty-headed socialism hater. By trying to paint those in favor of freeing up the system as radicals who yell out "socialist!!" whenever anyone says anything against government run healthcare, the hope for the socialists is that they will end up being the "compassionate" ones, and those who are in favor of a totally open system as cold hearted bastards.
The fact remains that when government gets involved in society in anything other than protection, there is no way for them to know which methods are most effective, as well as the most inexpensive when quality is not a problem.
For some reason or another, these healthcare socialists think that they know how to best spend other people's money. Try as they may to seem like they "just want to help out everyone", healthcare socialists are, at their core, simply scared people who do not trust free people. Hillary Clinton, John Edwards, this site, and may others use idiots like Bill O'Reilly as a puppet in order to advance their own agenda. The hope is that by trying to get everyone to focus on O'Reilly, who is against universal healthcare, then people may just think that ALL those in favor of a free market in healthcare are like him. Nice try!
I think it is INCREDIBLY arrogant to think that any one person or group of people should have the authority to make a COUNTRY-WIDE DECISION about how to spend other people's money. Why do you thumb your nose at those people who simply cannot afford more taxes? Why do you thumb your nose at the only system (totally free society) that is capable of lowering prices over time and thus help the poor? Tell me, who the hell can afford both higher taxes AND higher healthcare costs?
RESPONSIBILITY. This has been lost. It is time that the people of this country stop blaming and start thinking. The reason healthcare costs are so bloody high in this country is because government got involved in it. PERIOD. No amount of whining, ad hominem, tsk tsks, name-calling, or any other diversionary tactics will change this fact.
The government screwed up bigtime in healthcare, with the money abysses that are Medicaid, Medicare, insurance companies, and all the other regulated, government-granted monopoly healthcare providers. After all this, after all the problems, you want MORE government involvement? Have you all lost your minds? Stop pretending to be the only people that care about people's health. People in favor of a free market in healthcare want better health as well.
You simply have no idea that more money in something DOES NOT MEAN BETTER SERVICE. In fact, when companies are subsidized by the government, service and quality slowly deteriorate over time, because there is less COMPETITION for customer solicitation. If you are guaranteed money every year, why the hell would you try harder to improve? Come on folks, this is simple friggin logic here.
Stop being so afraid of free people. You will not make society better by making it more rigid. If people are free, then they tend to get along more. This fact is undisputable. But when you start to get government subsidies, monopoly privileges, unfair legislation, and favors (which the system is completely RIFE with), the name of the game is no longer to compete for customers. The free market is lost. The name of the game becomes a competition of bureacracy and for government favors and friendships.
And stop thinking that Bill O'Reilly represents those people who are in favor of a free market in healthcare, it is insulting and destructive.
And why in the world is this site taking sides with Hillary on anything? Is talking with O'Reilly the only way that could happen? Hillary is a TERRIBLE person. She's down there with O'Reilly as some of the worst talking heads in America.
Too bad we couldn't have seen more of this side of Hillary Clinton more consistently throughout the campaign. A day ago she offered the idiotic gas tax leniency. Had she talked this common-sensibly on other issues and more frequently, she'd might be in the lead.
forestyan @ 63:
Exactly right!
She cozies up to Billo and says 'God bless us rich people' and she calls OBAMA the elitist?
Have the 8 years of the Bush regime clouded everyone's sensibilities and judgment and ability to discern?
There's only one Democrat in this race, and it ain't Hillary any more than Joe LIeberman was a democrat.
Since do reich-wingers care about moral issues?
clinton legitamizes this clown, and amato posts a clip of the interview to show that she can school lufa boy in health care???? duh
except her program has huge holes in it, which, if lufa boy was smart enough to read, he couldve questioned her about it
so lufa boy doesnt mind paying a premium for sick people who cant afford health insurance??? bullshit
and john, why dont you show the part of the interview, where lufa boy asks clinton about wright and she replies "i guess the voters will have to decide"...funny, i thought hillary was running against obama, not wright
f&^k lufa boy...and f&^k clinton
she isnt a fighter, shes a do anything, say anythng and fuck anything to get political power bitch
elect her as pres, and as soon as her policies fail, and she loses congress, just like her hubby, she will be triangulating and selling out to the repugs
hillary doesn't school anyone on anything.
"HILLARY WEARS COTTON CANDY PINK IN DESPERATE EFFORT TO WIN OVER IRRELEVENT C.I.A. MEDIA-PLANT CORPORATIST DOUCHE BAG WHO ENJOYS DILDOS UP HIS @$$."
Boop @ 59:
You want facts? How about that both Clinton and Obama have received hundreds of thousands of campaign contributions from Wall Street. How about that neither one of them is supporting a single payer health care plan, which would, to their annoyance, eliminate the insurance and drug companies from profiting from the woes of the working and poor families of this country. Ralph Nader is not accepting monies from PACs while all of his opponents have eagerly accepted donations from large corporations. That probably has a lot to do with why Nader was shut out in the debates during the summer of 2000 and why the networks and the cable programs, along with the three major candidates, would certainly rejoice if Nader was once again barred from having his viewpoint heard on the corporate airwaves.
Drew, go back to the cult sites you seem to be echoing on the unfortunate basis that you know no better.
thx
Boop @ 74:
You forgot to read:
"No amount of whining, ad hominem, tsk tsks, name-calling, or any other diversionary tactics will change this fact."
Care to contribute a refutation?
John, I have no idea what you meant. Socialism ... dont hold up? Do you know what socialism is? Do you understand that virtually all of the programs in the US that actually work are socialized? Do you understand that most if not all of what she said was said by Teddy Roosevelt (R) a hundred years ago - in soft focus?
Sounds to me as if you are allowing fascist thugs to dictate the dialog. The most important thing she said you didnt mention - its a moral issue. She called his position immoral. I dont like the clintons, but it is a moral issue - the very existence of this extremist hard right philosophy is a moral issue.
You are dealing with people that conflate profits with morality ... who protect their rights by denying yours ... who kill to set the stage for a more favorable energy market.
Its time to reclaim the center and reposition these people where they actually are ... on the extreme right. It is also time to reclaim the moral high ground by identifying these people as morally bankrupt.
Erroll @ 73:
uncle joe hussein mccarthy @ 71:
You do have a way with words. I completely agree.
And not only would she lose congress, but she would probably be impeached in her first year for all the lies and fraud which are sure to catch up with her and hubby.
Military-Industrial Socialism
Incredibly, the American tax payer already pays for healthcare for millions of people. The American tax payer pays for healthcare, retirement, kids college, autos, housing, food, and discretionary spending for millions of people. Some of the trillions spent on the war -- on the industrial side of the complex -- even goes for the multi-million dollar salaries of CEOs; our Nomenklatura.
The "fiscal conservatism" canard as long meant "spending money on what we want to spend it on." Socialism or not, there's no reason to call spending on healthcare or infrastructure, or education or drug treatment or urban renewal, etc, socialism and not the war "effort."
Erroll @ 73:
nader???
ralph nader is a showboating asshat, who comes out of his hole once every four years to irritate the shit out of everyone
sure, he has lots of good ideas, but he is too big to run for a smaller office and use that as his platform
no...he has to run for prez and do nothing but bitch and moan about everyone else
tell you what...once nader divests himself of his corporate stock portfolio, maybe ill think about voting for him for dogcatcher
until that day, he is a nagging nuisance, no better than the old man who yells at kids to get off his grass
anon @ 77:
"Do you understand that virtually all of the programs in the US that actually work are socialized?"
I think this is the most uninformed thing ever said on this blog.
Okay, I'll change my request from facts to prove it.I'm open to proof.
Bill can even make Hillary look good.
anon @ 77:
please learn to read....
its lufa boy who is trying to use the socialism scare...not amato
to wingnuts, its the socialist values that to this day are destroying america
forget what really has happened
forget that it has been deregulation, lack of oversight and "free" trade that has brought us to the brink of disaster
no sir...its welfare, social security and medicare
nice of hillary not be able to answer why states like cali and ny are so deep in debt....why the blue states?
it aint cuz of health care, which is only a tiny part
but hillary wont say, cuz she supports the trade pacts that have hurt these states
she supports illegal immigration which has destroyed the tax base
she cant answer, cuz she is part of the problem
MountainMan23 @ 17:
Don't stop there. There are plenty of other cases to mention. For example, until profit is removed from national defense, the US will continue to get involved in the wrong wars against the wrong people. Etc. Etc.
Lighten up folks:
http://sweasel.com/archives/1104#comment-18039
Drew @ 82:
Really? When I think about the things that we do better than almost everyone else (e.g., scientific & medical research, higher education, using our military power to bully the world), they are all highly socialized.
Of course, there are other socialized things (e.g., infrastructure, criminal investigation) at which we currently suck. But you seem to think that there are the things at which the US is good but aren't socialized. What are these?
http://www.pnhp.org/
That is the real center of the debate on health care and until 2004, the health care insurance industry was the most profitable in the United States. In 2004 it was eclipsed by big oil... wonder how that happened?
What we have now is "murder by spread sheet" and no amount of "libertarian free market bullshit" can change those facts.
Sadly, Obama backed off from single-payer and Clinton was never in favor of it.
With that said, she did a damned fine job against O'Reilly.
Why are bill o's comments about Hillary's health care plan an argument? I live in Canada with full federal heath care and I don't even know how its possible to abuse it. People aren't going to walk in front of bus because they get a free trip to the ER.
Drew @ 82:
It's funny how a welfare mom can go through life and never pay a medical bill; can you say the same about your healthcare insurance?
Mike @ 91:
Pssst... you forgot to mention that Canadians pay 50% less than Americans and get comparable services and they actually have a higher life expectancy than we do down here and that the "long waits" are bullshit.
I live in Montreal for quite a while and my brother lived there and in Toronto for 20 years. Now we both would like to go back. This country is so f**ked!
Sheila @ 4:
I'm so sick of the misogynistic attacks.
I am entirely with you there. Hilary Clinton is a very intelligent, very capable person. She is fully capable of being President of the United States.
My personal preference is Barack Obama.
Rasputin @ 89:
It seems strange that profit and health should even be connected. Where is the Christian outrage at our precious life is being held hostage by the bottom line? If life is so fucking precious should anyone be making profit out of it? A good wage yes, an awesome wage for a skilled surgeon yes, but profits for investors? It makes my skin crawl, maybe thats why planned parenthood is hated, they should turn from being non-profit to for profit, then the far right/christian sheeple will leave them alone at the behest of their corporate overlords.
see 94
Sorry, that is Hillary of course
Mike @ 95:
The health care costs are projected to double in the next ten years... it will soon be health care only for the top .05% of our society.
McCain's plan will make things worse, because it removes tax breaks for companies offering paid health insurance to employees.
Mike @ 95:
I was on a plane not to long ago and these assholes were bragging about how much money they were making by working for the pharma industry. They were talking about their houses and their vacations. I kept thinking about breaking their arms and legs the entire flight.
Locke @ 98:
Not to mention that people with pre-existing conditions will not be able to get insurance at any price. Those conditions now include childhood asthma and skin rashes... no joke!
JTM @ 88:
I take a more philosophical and logical position. It's a much better way at arriving at truths. If you focus on what CURRENTLY is better than what, then you risk ignoring the DIRECTION that things are going, as well as the complex interacting phenomena that are taking place, which makes society never a still place.
You ask me what the US is good at that is not socialized? That's a difficult question to answer, because the US isn't much good at anything anymore. History has shown itself to be a very strange and interesting thing. I will say this. No other country could have had the opportunity, or the go-ahead from the rest of the world, to screw up this bad.
I suspect that the reason no other could have screwed up as bad as we did is because we have traditionally been the most free society in the world (free politically and economically), for many years, and so IF we should adopt bad anti-free-market policies, laws, and economics, and thus inevitably fail, the world would have chalked things up as being a failure of the free market, and not a failure of government intervention.
I'm not sure who said this, maybe you can help me out, but I know that as long as people continue to believe that they are living in a supposedly free society, then liberties can be taken away and nobody would even know they lost them.
Think about this REAL HARD. I mean, can you even fathom how a sitting US President can be found to have both wire-tapped the whole citizenry AND signed off on allowing the torture of people, and the country isn't calling for his head? If these revelations occurred when this country was free (we are no longer free), then people would have had the cognition that they are being attacked and that their liberties are being taken away. They would have fought to the death to protect it.
But our society is confused. We have been especially confused since 9/11. I don't think anyone has really thought about this in the grander scheme of things. It seems as though no matter what the government or corrupt businessmen do, they are not held accountable. The law is effectively lost.
Therefore, I predict that our country is going to collapse much like the Roman Empire collapsed, and more recently how the Soviet Union collapsed. It will take most people by surprise, but it's coming. A society that uses paper as money and no laws can possibly survive.
O'Reilly asks "Why should I pay for health care for a heroin addict drinking a bottle of booze a day?"
The reason is simple - we are all connected.
O'Reilly & Hillary & you & I & the heroin addict all breath the same air, drink the same water, and eliminate our bodily wastes into the same waste treatment systems.
If one of us is sick, the rest of us are at risk. The rates of Methicillin Resistant super-germs is extremely high among precisely the population for whom O'Reilly would prefer not to have to pay to provide health care - at O'Reilly's risk, and mine and yours.
It's not only a moral issue - or an economic issue, as Hillary point out - it's a Public Health Issue.
The view that Health Care is an issue for each Individual to solve Individually is extremely myopic. It provides maximum profit for the bloodsuckers, but it does not provide adequate health care for our population.
It's like Mass Transit vs EveryOne Owns Their Own Vehicle. We'd have fewer injuries and fatalities per mile travelled if we had a reliable National mass transit system.
And, as I read our Constitution, it's the role of OUR government to "provide for the General Welfare" -- like Mass Transit and Universal Health Care -- not to insure profits for the corporations.
I love Hillary and hope she gets the nom.
I Like Pie @ 99:
Here is the real dirty little part of that industry... while they always say that the cost of research and development is what drives up the costs... studies have show that the vast majority of their money is actually spent on marketing. Just sit in a doctors office for fifteen minutes and you'll see Pharma reps come in and line up with cases of samples and catered lunches... not to mention tickets for the Doc and his family to go to the islands where they are holding their latest "educational seminar."
Most of the major costs of development comes in human trials and those are all paid for by Uncle Sam with your tax dollars!
Sheila @ 4:
It's misogynistic to say someone doesn't know how to operate an espresso machine? What if you're black and someone says you can't operate one? Are you then a racist for pointing out the obvious--namely, that you can't operate an espresso machine? And maybe the more important question--who cares if you can operate an espresso machine or not?
What does any of that have to do with Bill O' Lies and health care?
jennifer from pittsburgh @ 103:
Now this--to me--is a great post. Seriously. It's honest, it's positive. You love who and what you love. Even though I'm not a Clinton supporter, I gotta say amen to this. That's what it's all about.
For many, Hillary Clinton can't do anything right, and these people rationalize constantly why Clinton must be X, Y, or Z. It's frustrating, but they should be ignored. Don't get me wrong - I've certainly had my objections to the manner in which her campaign is being run. Heck, over the last few weeks I've found myself supporting Obama over Clinton. But there are so many urban legends and talking-points floating around that most of us are left with our heads spinning.
In any event, I thought that Clinton handled herself rather well with O'Reilly. He likes to play the part of the verbal bully, and she was anything but cowed by his silly tactics. Furthermore, she refused to expend much energy trash-talking Reverend Wright, even though she was in front of a conservative audience who would have lapped it up if she feigned outrage. In fact, she offered some kudos to Obama for disassociating himself from Wright. Clinton also made a strong case for universal healthcare, quoting facts and figures that make the O'Reillys of the world look rather foolish. This is the sort of campaign I wish she had been running all along, but sadly, Clinton has too often fallen prey to the temptation of opportunism.
[chris, you're going to have to find a way to post that isn't flame bait. I don't have time to go around the board and clean up your messes-Sitemonitor]
Drew @ 101:
Let me ask you this; did the Soviet Union just collapse one day; or, did the people wake up one morning and realize that the system had collapsed a long time ago? Perhaps what we view as the collapse was really the point where people decided to fix things and that the collapse had happened a long long time ago.
What I am trying to say is this. America collapsed a long long time ago. Aside from an Army that cannot fight it's way out of a sandbox; what does the Federal Government actually do? Nearly every interaction that we have with a government body is at the state level. The Federal Government is just a big black abyss that we send a check to every April 15th; other than that, they are completely of no use to the average American.
You see a collapsing system; I see a system that has already collapsed. Maybe some progressives can move into the power vacuum and build a Federal System out of The Great Vast Federal Money Pit? I don't know. It may be easier to just abandon the thing altogether and have the states print their own currencies. The idea of Federalism may prove unworkable in the modern era.
ezpz @ 79:
I'm absolutely shocked. Our friend "mccarthy" has a rich history of coming across as a cynical, vitriolic and barely intelligible pseudo-troll. I'm used to it, frankly. But to have someone encouraging his "way with words"? I assumed at first that your post must be sarcastic, but I don't think it is, and that terrifies me.
In any event, the initial post proves my point that in the eyes of many (who reduce the world constantly to black-and-white nonsense), Hillary Clinton can't do anything right. She's bad because she said that voters' opinions regarding the Wright 'scandal' matter more than her own personal opinion of the man! And even though the U.S. did very well under President Clinton, he's also demonized. Why? Because "mccarthy" is one of oh-so-many armchair critics who form a conclusion and then work backwards in an attempt to find evidence that fits the conclusion, instead of letting independent pieces of evidence speak for themselves. We don't need people like this. The U.S. needs more rational, critical thinkers, and not angry adult-children with chips on their shoulders.
uncle joe hussein mccarthy @ 81:
Yes, it is irritating to see Nader daring to challenge the corporate candidates. What you never addressed is how Nader was not allowed into the debates of 2000, when the corporate media colluded with the Democrats and the Republicans to make sure that a non-corporately bought candidate would be seen on the same stage as a Democrat and a Republican. I submit what this country needs are more "nagging nuisances" like a Ralph Nader or a Cynthia McKinney. What expects such inane comments to be seen and heard on a far right wing web site instead of on a progressive blog.
Buffoon O'Reilly
The bozo claims that in 3 cases out of 3, water boarding worked. Where did he get the 'out of 3' from? I have never heard that before
Jesse @ 9:
You must have missed the moment when, after Barack Obama stuck up for his pastor even though it might not have been the politically expedient course of action, his pastor decided to trash-talk Obama and martyr himself in front of the press. Oh, Barack is a typical Washington politician! Oh, Obama will come after me if he's President! What an ego.
MountainMan23 @ 102:
It's amazing the amount of resources that we as a people expend upon transportation and disposable packaging. If we switched to reusable packaging and mass transit we would be an incredibly wealthy society. All of our wealth goes into the landfills or is spent driving around in circles. If you want to know why our standard of living falls every year; it is because, all of our industrial capacity is spent building cars, roads, and packaging.
Erroll @ 111:
It's a logical fallacy to accuse people who dislike Nader of disliking the idea of a third-party candidate. It's possible to loathe Ralph Nader without hating democracy, no matter how much Rovian anti-logic is shovelled about. Nader disappeared after 2000, but he's back now and talking about the desperate need for change in the United States. Why hasn't he been fighting for the American people all along, then? His reemergence now feels like cheap opportunism for the sake of exposure. And while it's cute and glib to dismiss alleged "corporate candidates," perhaps you ought to consider how much money Obama has raised via private, personal donations before throwing stones.
Drew @ 101:
Sorry. I mistook you for someone worth discussing with. My bad.
Erroll @ 57:
These sorts of conspiracy theories illustrate ignorance of the U.S. economic and political climate. While it would be nice to suddenly 'can' all insurance companies and replace them with universal healthcare, it's impossible, let alone a tad sudden and/or extreme. Attempting to phase out such a mighty and powerful American institution takes time and a lot of finesse. Clumsily and carelessly implementing massive changes tends to screw everyone over.
Bill O'reilly has to be one of the most disgusting human beings on the planet. Does the man have an ounce of empathy in his body? He has NO CLUE what it's like to spend 40% of the family income on health insurance. (yes my husband has lost his job and my measely $12/hour will pay the premiums for 3 family members). He has no clue how many thousands of dollars a family might have to spend if somebody has cancer - even if they have "good" insurance. My friend's husband died of a brain tumor and she had to cash out his IRAs to pay the hospital bills. They had "good" coverage. She has 3 school aged kids.
O'Reilly is such an ass, and I'm sorry to say that Hillary doesn't quite get it either. They must take the profit out of illness. Taking the abuse/fraud will be a major challenge too. There are so many people with emotional problems who think they are sick.
Nader is right, but if he keeps a democrat from winning we will be totally and completely fucked - things will get much worse if we end up with McCain in the Whitehouse. Republicans obviously think it's OK to bankrupt the country fighting a bullshit war. Heaven forbid we take care of our own.
I Like Pie @ 109:
"Let me ask you this; did the Soviet Union just collapse one day; or, did the people wake up one morning and realize that the system had collapsed a long time ago? Perhaps what we view as the collapse was really the point where people decided to fix things and that the collapse had happened a long long time ago."
Actually the Soviet Union did collapse very quickly. Not in one day of course, but the process was not a drawn out one. Hardly ANYONE saw its collapse coming (other than Mises back in the 1920's of course, who knew that socialism does not nor cannot work).
"What I am trying to say is this. America collapsed a long long time ago."
If it did, then it would named something else, or something else of that magnitude.
"Aside from an Army that cannot fight it's way out of a sandbox; what does the Federal Government actually do?"
A government is SUPPOSED to protect individual rights...that's about it. But ours thinks it has the capability of doing much more, and all to its, and more importantly our, detriment.
"Nearly every interaction that we have with a government body is at the state level."
The direction is definitely more federal and less state.
"The Federal Government is just a big black abyss that we send a check to every April 15th; other than that, they are completely of no use to the average American."
No use? Well, I wouldn't go that far. We need a central state to defend the borders.
"You see a collapsing system; I see a system that has already collapsed."
Show me the evidence of a collapse.
"Maybe some progressives can move into the power vacuum and build a Federal System out of The Great Vast Federal Money Pit?"
Already tried that to DEATH, literally.
"I don't know. It may be easier to just abandon the thing altogether and have the states print their own currencies. The idea of Federalism may prove unworkable in the modern era."
Why does money have to be issued by government? In the Constitution it states that only gold and silver shall be legal tender. Tell me why SOME government must have this power. The whole reason our system does not work is because we have allowed the power of money creation to be held by a small group of people at a whim, instead of millions of citizenry competing with each other for what money is. That's how money came into existence anyway. Money naturally evolves from competition in bartering. Money is simply the most popular bartering tool. Gold and silver have always been the most popular monetary tool when free people are allowed to act freely with one another. That's why they always evolve as money in modern societies. Money is not a state-given right.
Federalism is actually just a tool that the NWO are using to consolidate their power. It's much easier for the NWO to control a nation when that nation is already being controlled from within. All they have to do is hire the oppressive US government and take control of it. If the US government is controlled, the oppressed people are controlled.
This is why hardly anyone understands that having a big government is actually less safe. The more free a society is, meaning the smaller the state, the harder it is for that nation to be conquered. How else can you explain the ALL of the most oppressive nations throughout history have disappeared? America become so strong because it was so free. Many countries of the world wanted to destroy us, but they couldn't because they knew they would not be able to control the citzenry afterwards. Free market societies are unconquerable. But if you have a big government and a poor nation (the direction we are headed), then destroying the nation becomes as easy as pie. This is because the people of a poor nation are easier to control.
These ideas are so simple, that I think it eludes people BECAUSE they are so simple. When oppressed people are faced with such simplicity, they immediately doubt themselves, because they are so used to being confounded all the time, and so they say "that's too simple", or "that cannot be true", or "you are simplfying things", etc, instead of trusting their own judgment, which everyone is capable of doing. Occum's razor exists because there is truth to it.
[Drew. Try using Occam's Razor when you edit your posts. Don't make me cut them down-Sitemonitor]
JTM @ 117:
"Sorry. I mistook you for someone worth discussing with. My bad."
What, because you are incapable of speaking your own mind and would much rather speak what you hear from the loud crowd?
uncle joe hussein mccarthy @ 85:
O'Reilly didnt mention Socialism once.
I'm not entirely certain John is comfortable with socialism - maybe he is. When I hear someone misuse socialism I ask if they know what it means.
This notion of socialism and its programs being bad needs to be marginalized - on the extreme right - where it belongs, rather that allowing it to occupy the center.
Erroll @ 111:
I voted for Nader in the last two elections. I wish I could of voted for the democrats; but, they had nothing to offer. I hear a lot of democrats complain about how Nader put Bush into power. I blame the democratic candidates; had they actually offered something to the American people then nobody would of voted for Nader. I see election time as let's make a deal. It is the candidates time to come before the American people and offer them something in exchange for their support. If they show up to the election empty handed then sorry can't help ya. I am going to either stay home or vote 3rd party on election day. You want to know why Clinton won against Bush in the 1992 election; it was because Clinton offered universal healthcare. He didn't follow through with the promise so Hillary is not even an option this election. Obama has a healthcare proposal that looks, on the surface, like a cash payout to the insurance industry. I'm not a very fearful person. I'm not going to vote for a democrat; because, I fear Bush. I know the guy is nuts. I also know that McCain is nuts. I figure you gotta die sometime; but, until then, I am going to go on living like I always do. The democrats use fear of the republicans to garner votes and the republicans use fear of the outsiders to garner support. Neither party wants to talk to the American people. Neither party wants to offer Joe Public so much as a crumb.
Drew @ 82:
I think you dont understand what socialism is.
anon @ 124:
Are you saying that with access to the internet that I am incapable of looking up a simple definition? Don't make me look it up again for you.
I Like Pie @ 92:
And she tapdances while doing it.
Shame the facts dont bear you out. No one 'goes though life on welfare'.
[Drew. Try using Occam's Razor when you edit your posts. Don't make me cut them down-Sitemonitor]
Nice.
I'm an Edwards supporter who switched to Obama, but I really like Hillary on health care. Not so much on foreign policy. She is a woman of such extraordinary capability, you can't help but admire her when she's at her best like this.
Have their been any Hillary whiners on this thread? "Wah! C&L bashes Hillary and lurvs Obama!"
Jus' curious, seein' as how every thread seems to turn into a "Save Hillary" rant.
(I voted for Hills and still find that stuff grating)
I think I shall start from the top now and see if I have to eat my words...
anon @ 126:
I find it annoying that whenever I say that people shouldn't have to pay higher taxes for other people's healthcare, that the reply I usually get is something like "well, the average costs per person would be LOWER with universal healthcare". They usually quote a few shady studies here and there, or use some other form of lame argumentation. But no matter, because where I get annoyed is how they can so blatantly forget and not care about the people who do not pay for ANY healthcare whatsoever, and that they will end up paying anyway because of taxes.
These stupid igoramuses who are preaching "the average" this, and "per capita" that...they don't even realize that these aggregate things do not actually apply to anyone in particular. They don't even care that half the population would gain at the expense of the other half. I mean, this is friggin simple to see. What the hell do the teachers and professors in this country say to our youngsters in class anyway?
Sheila @ 4:
Excellent! Four posts in and there it is! An unprovoked attack on "Obamaniacs"! Niiiice.
Hillary went into the lions den,thats leadership.
Drew @ 101
There is a great deal the US does well. From law enforcement to protection of the commons - (when we dont have fascist thugs running - or not running - things). The US even socializes corporate losses like a champion.
Those that are destroying the nation are a part of something new - something so extremely to the right, that I dont believe the US has ever seen its like before. Surely at least when compared to what previously represented the right - from Teddy Roosevelt to Eisenhower to Goldwater (who by comparison was extreme but by today's standards was moderate).
I dont think the US will survive in any case. I recall that the US really isnt a revolutionary society. The British were safe any where they went in the colonies. The French on the other hand are a revolutionary society. Once revolt started, nobles were in mortal danger wherever they may have been. In France to this day the government fears the people. In the US, the government ignores the people - with cause.
Note - the central principle of socialism is a fairer (not equal) distribution of wealth and property. Knee jerkers think otherwise.
Jbrd @ 132:
Hum, in the rest of the world going to a propaganda outlet, and thus by association giving said outlet much undeserved validity, is called something else.
Shilling for example comes to mind.
Also in the rest of the world, a candidate --who received the largest amount of campaign contributions by the health care industry-- having the gall to school anyone on universal health care is spelled as "hypocrisy."
But your mileage may vary as usual...
Bonkers Hussein @ 131:
Indeed, the capacity for projection by some Hillary supporters never ceases to amaze me.
Drew @ 125:
Not interested in a cherry picked definition describing a form that hasnt existed anywhere since the '30s.
Hmph. Billo doesn't go apeshit on Hillary?
Do ya think the right-wing might WANT her to win the primaries?
Is Rush pushing "Operation Chaos" for Obama's win?
No matter who wins the Democratic nomination, anyone who says they're not voting because their candidate didn't pull it off is a complete moron.
Vote Democrat in the general election, or eat shit and die.
Drew @ 130:
People are going to have pay taxes no matter what. The money is either going to get spent giving tax breaks to Corporate Amerika; or, it is going to get spent addressing the needs of the people. You can either have you tax money pay for Corporate Amerika to move factories overseas; or, you can have your tax dollars spent taking care of your own healthcare needs.
Hillary can be good when she decides to. She really made Orally eat his shorts. The only complaint that I have with her program is that I don't want to be paying for Billo's Viagra tab or Rush Limbaugh's synthetic heroin. I wonder if falafels will be covered.
anon @ 133:
Indeed, although Britain has had its share of minor revolutions ("my kingdom for a horse" anyone...) And they have managed to relinquish the royal titles to mere appearances, with the real power held by the government who is elected.
In any case, the best explanation of socialism I once heard by an Euro is this: Socialism is the belief by the masses, that if in a society a small number of assholes want to have the largest slice of the pie, then if follows that said assholes should have to pay for the cost of having to have a pie to begin with. Probably I botched the translation but that was the general idea.
Drew @ 130:
Well, at least my teachers taught me that "I got mine so fuck you" wasn't neither nice nor civic.
Your teachers obviously were different, maybe homeschooled?
Hillary Clinton also supports John McCain's gas tax proposal.
Also, she appears to do pretty well up against O'reilly, but I am still disappointed she bothered to make an appearance on that show. There is no need to legitimize in any way, Bill O'reily. He is not a journalist nor are his positions remotely respectable.
Oh yeah, on another point, which Clinton should have caught O'reilly on--
O'reilly says that California and New York have big deficits and says it is related to both states paying so much for Social programs like medicaid.
Well, fact is, O'reilly, the number one expenditure in ALL states is healthcare and social welfare programs.
And the number one source of funding for states is revenue from the Federal government.
Seriously people, this is government 101.
The Dude @ 141:
"Well, at least my teachers taught me that "I got mine so fuck you" wasn't neither nice nor civic."
And saying "I DON"T have mine, so fuck you and give me some of yours" is any better? Because that is what you are advocating.
But why go to extremes like this anyway? Why can't society be one of peaceful cooperation, where aid is voluntary and benefits must be worked for? Have you never heard of the saying "an honest day's work"??? How can you be an honest person if you expect to mooch off of other people in order to say, smoke two packs a day?
Geez...we must help each other because we want to, not because we have to. Society is not better off if people are forced to help each other. That breeds social discontent and hatred for your fellow man. Instead of looking at people as beings that could benefit you and do good things for themselves, we will all look at each other with malaise, because if we see a smoker we will think "fuck you, you are making me pay for your medical bill". One could then have a legitimate argument for hating ANYONE, so long as they are not living a life that you personally think is healthy. Anyone not living a life according to your own standards will look good in your eyes, because you think to yourself that you are working in order to make sure that they are healthy, instead of what modern societies are SUPPOSED to be, and that is one of self-responsibility and maturity.
Socialism fails not because people are greedy. It fails because it tries to contradict human nature.
Religion (socialism) is like this. Forget about having people voluntarily believe (pay) or not, force it down their throats instead! As long as they believe (pay) for any reason, we are better off, or so the saying goes. Same with universal healthcare. If some people do not want to work for the benefit of others, than to hell with them right? FORCE those bastards to pay and thus "be nice". Nevermind the fact that the world will be a fucking miserable place to live in. People who think socialistically are the patronizing and presemptuous part of society. They may have had a miserable upbringing where their parents forced them to be nice to bullies and violent siblings, and so they think that forced nicety is better than reconciliation. I think it's just friggin lazy and hence destructive.
For those who believe people should be in control of their own healhcare, let me point you towards Social Security. In the beginning that was the idea, but too many older and disabled people ended up in soup kitchens or even the gutter.
Should every person decide for themselves whether to buy automobile insurance? Should we all go back the old days of the west where we policed our ownselves? Everybody build a street or not? Dig your own well and erect your own windmill?
Civilization works best when people help each other and work for the common good. 'It takes a village'.
As an Obama-bot, I gotta say: Go Hill.
Clintons health plan is the reason Joe Andrews switched his support to Obama today. He represents the health insurance agencies who heavily favor Obama since his health plan still leaves 15 million uninsured and the Insurance companies still in charge of who can be denied coverage for pre-existing conditions after they have already paid for the coverage. It's obvious the Obama trolls have made their way here yet again, posting lie after lie laced with false inuendo's trying to smear Clinton praying she will drop out of the race before another anvil drops on Obama.
ronhohn @ 145:
What you're talking about is a system where the corporate elite aren't stealing those dollars from us, but they are. Hillarys system plays right into that too. And yes we should police ourselves because now we have a culture of police corruption in the worst way. We should look after our neighbors and get to know them. Now we just call the cops on them for loud music and we never even got to know them.
Will Obama go on the "Factor"?
Drew @ 144:
Another thing my teachers taught me: Strawmen arguments are neither humans made of straw nor solid logical devices.
See my teachers were really good, I happened to have such a great foundation that I was even able to get me one of them PhDs. Anyhow, before labeling anything as a "failure." Care for example to look at the life expectancy of those industrialized nations with socialized systems vs. our glorious everyman for himself system?
It really gets tiresome when some libertarians establish their biases as "fact," it really allows them to base their whole bullshit on axioms that only are true in their feeble little minds. You can not try to establish a logical argument when all your foundation is the whole bullshit of "socialized systems are a failure because..." when as of now, the biggest economy in the world is the EU, which is as socialized as they come. So just to clear things up, being number 1 is better than being number 2. And for the better part of this year, the US of A is the second economy in the world. So it takes a set of balls for the one person losing the raze to judge the guys ahead of him as being a "failure."
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