So Sad: 'My War' blogger heading back to Iraq for another tour
Do we need a draft, or what? 'My War' blogger---Colby Buzzell tells his tale:
When I voluntarily enlisted in the Army, I remember asking my recruiter about the fine print on the contract about being called back up to active duty once my enlistment was completed. He assured me not to worry, that every contract said that and it would only happen if "World War III" broke out.
That was a little over five years ago. After serving in Iraq, I elected to use my GI Bill to enroll in a photography course at San Francisco City College. I felt good, and I had a feeling that the days to come were all going to be good as well.
As terrible as this might sound, whenever someone asks me about enlisting, I'm tempted to encourage them. I figure that the more people who enlist, the slimmer the chances that I'll get called back up. But of course this is ridiculous: No one in their right mind would enlist now, whereas I've already signed the papers. I'm now going back to Iraq for a second time because people like me - existing service members - are the only people at the Army's disposal...read on
Of course if we did have a draft then I think we'd hear a different tune about the war. I always hear military pundits on TV say that recruiting is doing just fine. If that's the case then why does Colby have to go back after being home for so many years? Military Recruiting 2007: Army Misses Benchmarks by Greater Margin
The Iraq War began to have an impact on recruiting in 2005, when the Army missed its goal for the number of recruits. In 2007, for the third year in a row, the Army did not meet its benchmark for the level of educational attainment of recruits. The percentage of recruits the Department of Defense (DoD) considers ‘high quality’ also dropped considerably. A higher percentage of recruits will drop out well before the end of the first term of enlistment, leading to further increases in spending on recruitment and training, including enlistment bonuses and pay for additional recruiters...read on
Conscription is slavery.
PIMP YOUR PROFILE? CURSORS MANIA? Making a buck by treating your readership to malware?
And lets not forget completely qualified and highly trained officers and soldiers are being drummed out (even after stop/loss) just for being gay, even though we certainly we need every able soldier during war time. the only way to look at the DODT issue and the sham it is, and the one way EVERY American can relate to it: it's a complete and utter waste of taxpayer dollars. looked at that way, no one can say it's a good thing. as it isn't anyway. yes, and it's as simple as that.
A Draft would make all the Chicken Hawks think twice before they chirped for war. As it is we now have a system of enslavement of the forces who go to war and are not allowed to come home unless they are in a box.
As a disabled veteran I hate war. I hate everything about todays war and the criminals who lied us into an un-necessary and un-needed mid-east war for what was a criminal act buy hired murderers who hijacked civilian aircraft and drove them into buildings. My first comment then remains the same. "How much did the CIA pay for this one?" Turns out about $25000 per murderer was the going rate Arafat gave to his suicide murderers.
America has fallen into disgrace at the hands of a few radical nut cases and a battalion of media chicken hawks who all used deferments to avoid military service in Viet Nam because those like Rush Limpburger had a zit on his ass and no balls on his body!
We should flush these maggots down the drain and bring our troops home. The mess made by the military is not getting any better. They drove out the leading generals who said NO and are using the third string team to make global warfare a business for the wealthy to steal the national treasury.
PEACE by popular demand! Save our troops!
Oh, who needs a draft when we have Blackwater? And who would enlist for crappy pay and pathetic medical care when you could make ten times more working for Blackwater?
Rather than "is this fair?" The real questions asked here should be how can we make sure obama will stop the vampirism on our economy by the manufacture of death weapons, the funneling of youth into war/prisons because there are no jobs, and of course how to end the endless wars that both neoliberalism demands and neoconservatism cements in place.
For pity's sake, DO NOT let them convince anyone that a draft is a GOOD thing. I am a Navy Vietnam Vet, joined at 17 and would not have been drafted as it ended just before my 19th birthday. I protested against the draft (and the war) while IN the Navy. It's a Pandora's Box - think before opening!
The focus shouldn't be on forcing MORE people into a war they don't want to relieve the forces already there. How does that make sense? Focus on getting the politicians to STOP THE FREAKIN' OCCUPATION!!
I find it amazing and just a little repulsive to find encouragement of governmental conscription at C&L. It kinda breaks my heart, a little. The problem is NOT recruitment. The problem is NOT retention. The problem is NOT the size of our military force. The problem is that our forces are committed in a no-end-in-sight deadly waiting game in Iraq. Fix THAT problem and the others disappear.
Stay safe buddy....keep your head down and come back in one piece
Even if I agree that a draft would start an uprising not seen for years, don't fool yourselves that the sons and daughters of the chicken shit hawks would have to serve. They would find ways the same as their fathers did to avoid any danger of having to go to war. Once again it would be the young people of America whose parents aren't privileged and who could not buy their way out of this quagmire. When will we see Jenna and Henry in uniform? How many in congress have sons, daughters, grandchildren, serving in the armed forces? BTW, Henry worked for Rove. Need I say more?
Bush & Co. are simply war criminals.
Yes, we need a draft. They are just abusing their service now and the dems will keep funding it.
Nobody will stop them from staying and building what they want.
Then mcwar go attack Iran and start WWIII.
Nikolai @ 2:
Try using Firefox with a popup and ad blocker. Alternatively you could write a check to replace the revenue those ads represent and then ask nicely for them to be removed.
MT@7 – Word.
And how exactly will the world react if the US reinstitutes the draft? We’re already in a war of conquest. To increase our number of troops will send a negative message to the rest of the world. Yet another reason why this administration will go down in history as the worst ever.
This is insane. This fellow is a monster. He is worried about missing his shot at the good life after having participated in a war crime of monumental proportion.
What we need is to establish once and for all that murder and mayhem are very bad things and that those that participate is same for whatever reason are monsters. He didnt defend the US and I suspect he knew that while he was destroying SW Asia. At this point in his life he should be less concerned about his 'good life' and more concerned about defending himself against charges of war crimes.
I am sick to death of faux left implicitly accepting empire and war crimes. We need to send FARMERS and TEACHERS overseas not killers.
All volunteer armies and bands of professional mercenaries don't make the best armies and never have. All that BS about "the best trained and best fighting military in American history" is crap. Democracies must has citizen armies made up of people from all walks of life. Such armies do not fight for money and are not subservient to tyrants. Bring back the draft for all citizens of military age without deferment and the Iraq War ends. It's that simple, and that is exactly why it has not been done.
Medford Tim @ 7:
I think the point they are trying to make is that the burden is being unfairly borne by a small number of people. If the draft were re-introduced to relieve that burden it wouldn't be passed but would force people to consider the issue. Objectively, no party would actually consider the draft. It would be politcal suicide.
sulphurdunn @ 15:
and this is ALL ABOUT MONEY, isn't it?
And people are buying it!
Because, in this economy, they can't go anywhere else for money.
This abuse of the volunteer force is destroying our national security.
If this war were being fought with a draft and a tax to pay for it we wouldn't still be in Iraq.
Instead it was sold as a "quick and cheap war" that would be over before it even started, almost.
Colin Powell, the famous General who said that he would never encourage a war without a withdrawal plan, endorsed the war.
That we are back-door drafting is proof that the system is under a strain. That Pentagon Generals are saying we couldn't confront another problem in the world points to an unraveling of our once vaunted military.
That the Republicans have wasted our military only to rape the treasury over military contractors who pay killers ten times the pay of an American trooper.
The Republican fascist corporate take-over of the National Government is ending, God willing. We can only hope that the next administration will be able to repair the damage done by a party that put money and party over country.
@anon
You don't know jack shit about anything going on in the world, what war crimes are, or what anyone in the military is thinking or doing. Please STFU until you get a clue.
sulphurdunn@15 " All volunteer armies and bands of professional mercenaries don’t make the best armies and never have." You're kidding right. Conscript armies are better how? Drafting people who don't want to be there improves performance how?
blue balls @ 1:
Bullshit. If we had conscription we wouldn't be in this mess. Our government is more than willing to send men and women into battle if they willfully volunteered their lives. It's their fault you know, as the sickening logic goes.
I'm glad I did my time and I'm done.
Even in the best of times we are going to need a military. Those who rule out conscription because of this war are missing the point, you've got your causality backwards.
Peter G @ 16:
that's a false point. look at
the price of gas
the national debt
the price of food
the infrastructure
the increases in state and local taxes
the burden of war is being borne by us all.
that "special sacrifice" for military families is bullshit!
they are signing up with the employer of last resort, who is happy to send them to foreign lands to kill people for their oil.
anon @ 14:
What a bunch of elitist bullshit. We as americans all have blood on our hands for allowing bush to take this country to war. What risks have you taken to your nice little life to stop this war? You Will blame soilders for doing what there citizens have sent them to do. This country has looked the other way and pretends that the war does not effect them, unless its your kid or husband fighting and getting killed. Wake up and start thinking.
These are the stories I hate to read. Not only do disagree with our war in Iraq, I find it disgusting for the army (government) to have to reach back into the lives of discharged veterans to fill the gaps left by the inability to attract new recruits. While I feel the draft inherently unfair, this use of soldiers who have served honorably seems somehow so much worse. Worse yet, these veterans have zero legal recourse--refusal will lead to their being arrested, imprisoned, or sent back anyway after "appropriate" disciplinary action has taken place. In effect, this practice has the tendency to change patriotic, dedicated, heroes into unwitting villains. I feel it is the most underhanded practice I can imagine, yet characteristic of the Bush administration's handling of all things related to counterterrism military activity--this highlighted by the long term avoidence of military service by his entire staff. His questionable Air National Guard cocoon kept him out of Vietnam and led to his disqualification due to failing to complete a required annual flight physical--something which I believe would be a courts martial offense in today's military. We need to protect our great young men who have served our country to well--to do this we need to find ourselves out of Iraq as quickly as is safely possible.
liberAL @ 9:
When will we see Jenna and Henry in uniform? At the next photo op in a secure hideout.
War dead cremated at facility for pets
By Ann Scott Tyson
The Washington Post
WASHINGTON — The U.S. military has, since 2001, cremated some of the remains of U.S. service members killed in Iraq, Afghanistan and elsewhere in a Delaware facility that also cremates pets, a practice that ended Friday when the Pentagon banned the arrangement.
The facility, in an industrial park near Dover Air Force Base, has cremated about 200 service members, manager David Bose said Friday night. It uses separate crematories a few feet apart to cremate humans and animals, he added.
Pentagon officials said they do not think any humans were cremated in the pet crematory. "We have absolutely no evidence whatsoever at this point that any human remains were at all ever mistreated," Pentagon press secretary Geoff Morrell said late Friday.
Despite Bose's estimate, officials said they do not know the number of service members cremated at the Kent County facility, identified on a billboard as Friends Forever Pet Cremation Service.
Defense Secretary Robert Gates found "the site and signage insensitive and entirely inappropriate for the dignified treatment of our fallen," Morrell said. "The families of the fallen have the secretary's deepest apology," he said.
The revelation came to light when an Army officer who works at the Pentagon traveled to Delaware on Thursday to attend the cremation of a military comrade.
* * * * * * * *
This is what the all-volunteer military signed up for!
Does anyone think for a second that Gates is sincere?
Does anyone think there should be a draft so that other can be conscripted for treatment like this?
CoIntelPro against Repug DoucheBaggery @ 22:
Yes it must be tough for you coming under sniper fire when you gas up. And those IED's at the supermarket. Isn't it terrible when a loved one steps out for some groceries and comes back in a body bag.
Right now the army will take almost any warm body it can get. I am a criminal defense attorney. The days of going into the army or jail are back. The recruiters will waive convictions for drug and violent offenses. The prosecutors are willing to reduce charges in order to allow enlistment. I had a client get arrested on 3 felony charges after enlistment and just before basic training. His recruiter told him that, as long as the charges were settled before he left for boot camp, his policy was "don't ask, don't tell." The arresting agency dropped the charges on the condition that the kid finished boot camp.
* ** ** ** ** *
I applaud the soldier who altruistically wishes to serve his/her country, but let's be real about what it really means and what it really is.
60% of the two trillion dollar budget is to blow shit up. and they vote billions more in special appropriations.
Its been obvious all along that BushCo is doing everything in its power to avoid a draft.They know its sure political suicide. They have stop lossed, ground up and 4 toured the hell out of current force. It seems almost inevitable that there might have to be a draft just to restore force levels for a good defense.Thats excluding the cost of replacing lost equipment also. You can hear the GOP blaming the Dems already for the necessity of a draft. They will also claim it was good GOP management of the war that kept the draft at bay till next year too. Will be a draft for sure if the Neo Convicts can backdoor a shooting war with Iran before January.
Peter G @ 27:
I have two cousins with nine tours between them so far, one is stop-lossed. I have no delusions. there's nothing trite or cute about living in a fascist state or serving it's masters.
The only thing Gates is sorry for is that this came to light. Seriously, he's the Defense Secretary (There motto - "We put the secret in secretary!") for 18 months and he just now found out about this practice. Of course willful blindness to corruption and disdain for Americans is a pre-requisite for serving in the Bush crime family, guess he fits right in then.
Unfortunately -- and I think anyone old enough to remember Vietnam will probably agree with me -- the draft wouldn't really do anything to solve the problem unless very strict measures were put in place to ensure that people from all levels of society were required to meet their obligation unless under the most dire circumstances (and I think we all know that there isn't a prayer of this happening as long as George W. Bush is in office). Let's remember that one of the reasons why the draft was eliminated in the first place was because of the disproportionately large number of draftees from the lower socio-economic strata who were sent to Vietnam because they weren't able to take advantage of as many opportunities for deferment that people from higher socio-economic levels were (even though unfortunately, it seems that eliminating the draft hasn't really done a whole lot to change this).
Granted, if the draft had still been in place when George W. Bush first took office, it's possible that he might have been at least marginally less eager to send troops into Iraq and Afghanistan since this would mean that the sons of his friends and political cohorts might be called up. However, especially considering how many of the people who supported the invasion of Iraq (including Bush himself) were "chickenhawks" who would have been the right age to serve during the Vietnam War yet who for various reasons didn't go -- not to mention the current "Yellow Elephant" contingent of Republicans who support the current war and are of an age to serve yet who are remarkably resistant to the idea of enlisting themselves -- it seems reasonable to expect that Bush would still have found some way to protect the children of his "base" from having to serve in the War just as he himself once admitted (according to Dr. Yoshi Tsurumi, his former economics professor at Harvard) having used his own father's influence to get into the Texas National Guard in spite of the fact that he supported the War.
CoIntelPro against Repug DoucheBaggery @ 22:
OMG! BEHIND YOU! IT'S A FOOD PRICE HIKE!
[Deleted, Leaveus-Sitemonitor]
sharkcellar @ 20:
Sharkcellar, while your comments have justification and merit on their own, they do little to argue against Blue's completely true statement. It is absolutely a form of slavery.
Imagine if you got notice in the mail that you must report to Walmart by a certain date or face jail. They will only guarantee a crappy wage, meals, some form of bedding, and a possible end date to your time of service to the company. Then they send you to a place of humiliation and degradation with the stated purpose of "breaking" you. If you try to leave, they will forcibly stop you. They will punish you. They will take away your crappy income and possibly incarcerate you. Because you decided the job wasn't for you. You have no choice, you have no say.
So, you find yourself stocking shelves 12-18 hours a day while people are shooting and throwing bombs at you. You decide, "Screw THIS!!" but you find they have located you in a Walmart 80 miles from the closest town in the middle of a desert. You can leave, but to go where? You have no choice, you have no say.
THEY control your movements, your schedule, your thoughts as much as they can by limiting the information you receive, your very life. You have no choice, you have no say.
How is it different from slavery?
speaking of what is happening to those we care about?
marbotty @ 34:
LOL
Medford Tim @ 35:
they draw a wage or salary according to their rank? that's why it's not slavery.
Cointel@31 And yet you maintain that the burden of this war is fairly shared. FYI the inflated costs you cite as your share of this burden are only partially attributable to the instability in the middle east caused by the war. Most of the increase in the cost of oil is, in fact, due to increase demand for a diminishing resource. The growing economies of Asia, indeed the rest of the world, is chiefly responsible for those rising costs. High oil prices cause high food prices. The diversion of food to alternative fuel programs is also a factor. The infrastructure was being ignored long before the war started. Where is this "war" burden you are carrying that is equal to your cousins?
anon @ 14:
It's hard to stop laughing after reading that.
If america is stupid and starving, that would be just what you want.
Are you under the impression that slaves aren't "paid" or given extra benefits according to "rank?"
Again, the point is, "Can you up and leave without threat of incarceration?" If that answer ain't "yes," you are a slave.
Peter G @ 39:
I said nothing about fair. fair does not apply here.
the other economies are moot and irrelevant. the current economy for the globe is shaped by speculation on investments and futures, including oil and food stocks. do some homework.
we are in a fascist state; nothing can be or will be fair.
those in the military are serving boosh and chainey, not some special patriotic cause. they chose to enlist for military careers, for income. their families benefit, regular army somewhat more than reservists. As a taxpayer, I pay their salaries.
There is no special sacrifice on their part for choosing the military career path. Not any more than the rest of us.
maybe you missed this part from the above:
Medford Tim @ 41:
that's contract law! again, not slavery.
CoIntelPro against Repug DoucheBaggery @ 43:
Contract law?? We're talking about conscription, not a voluntary contract!
Aside from the fact that once a person enters the military, they are no longer living under the laws and protections of the Constitution. They are bound by the UCMJ and the limitations inherent in that system.
Dude, you must have a narrow definition of slavery...
I know a lot of people joined the service for a lot of good reasons and none of them expected the kind of horror that the current administration has perpetrated on the entire world. But seriously, enlisting now would probably be a sign that you are not mentally fit enough to serve.
So... is it a deliberate conspiracy? To ruin the economy so that more working class people choose to join the military?
Our daughter is due to have her baby in a couple of months. My son-in-law is going back to Iraq right around the time she is due.
He was in Iraq when their first child was born.
Medford Tim @ 46:
slaves do not sign contracts.
Albatross @ 48:
yes.
Peter G @ 41:
lol, and that increased demand just so happened to correspond to the start of the Iraqi War. face it; it's speculators thriving off of and/or participating in a fearful geopolitical climate. oil'd be like $60 a barrel if this invasion never happened.
Jeannie See @ 49:
this is a story the media might cover to bring home the facts of what is happening with those serving in the military. but we can only get mylie cyrus or a politician's peccadillos.
anon @ 14:
This fellow did not participate in a war crime, as much as some folks believe that that is so. People join the Army for a variety of reasons, but the biggest one is so that they can afford to go to college, or support their families.
We do need to send farmers and teachers overseas. We do need to think more about diplomacy and less about warfare in our foreign policy. The hard truth is, that the people who sign up to be in the armed forces, DO NOT have anything to do with foreign policy. Not everyone who is in the ARMED FORCES is in it to kill. The criminals are the ones who ordered this. The criminals are the ones in congress who allowed them to carry this out without any debate on the issue, because they were afraid of being seen as soft on national security during an election year.
Standing ovation. I don't know anyone with a loved on in the miltary who honestly WANTS a draft,so that they can spread the misery around. I don't know any that seriously want a draft for any reason. I do know a lot of families that are absorbing the problems that war brings home. Even is your soldier comes home in one piece physically, there is a lot of mental detritus to deal with. My son, a reservist, has been home for a little over a year, and has not worked at a "real" job since he came home.
WHY? He knew he would be called back up. He has worked arm and arm with people who were on their 4th tour of duty, and has seen 1/3 of the people who he was assigned with, go back to Iraq. One guy is will be coming home from his 4th tour in December. His wife divorced him just before he came back from his 3rd tour, and he hasn't seen his children since then. She decided that army life is too hard for her, and the children, (and who can blame her) and she's got full custody. He doesn't have the mental capacity to fight her decision.
This is a sore point at the moment, and part of the feeling that others should be bearing some of the burden, at the same time as feeling that you don't want anyone else to have to go through this. There are psychic implications to all of this that are not easy. It is not a matter of the soldiers are criminals and don't deserve any sympathy, and it is not that they all should or do support the war blindly. Each soldier and each family is different, and their reasons for being in the Armed Forces are all different. What they all deserve, more than anything, is the absolute respect and care from the people who send them to fight, and not just a bunch of pin wearing political hacks, who have no clue about the lives of the soldiers who serve.
Once again, another Vietnam , a failed economy, a lawless government ,destroys our country and then an election comes around.
All the disasters are forgotten and the American people fall in love with these same politicians.
Blindly trusting these same politicians is insane.
We get what we vote for.
getalife @ 55:
Please hold your pessimism for the coming Obama Sin Laden tapes which will tell of the comraderie of muslims and black americans.
CoIntelPro against Repug DoucheBaggery @ 50:
Gawd, I'm slow this morning. Took me a few of your posts before I looked under the bridge...
Anyone in the military has the option to make their own choices. It's as basic as that. If you do not want to return to Iraq, you have total freedom to choose not to do so. It is up to you. There are various consequenses to consider for various choices, but that does not suggest that you are without the freedom to choose. What do you think made Arlo Guthry's "Alice's Restaurant" so significant? Go out and get a DUI or something similar and you'll find they don't want to send you to Iraq anymore.
Medford Tim @ 57:
let's be clear. there is no draft and even when there was, there were administrative and legal loopholes to get out. no analogy to slavery is valid. Unless you get something like the israeli system, you have nothing remotely analogous to slavery. the horse is dead. stop beating it.
beckyboo @ 54:
As a Vietnam veteran, I suggest that before condemning anon for his or her comments, that you take the time to see the documentary Sir! No Sir!, which chronicled the story of the GI resistance that took place during the Vietnam conflict. In one scene, a soldier in a GI coffeehouse tells other GIs that being a clerk typist does not get you off the hook, since you are still part of an organization that engages in the brutalization and killing of a people that were never a threat to anyone in the United States. The same thing, of course, is happening in Iraq and Afghanistan. This may be hard to believe, but those in the military have a brain and they can, as those in the GI resistance did during Vietnam, choose not to be a part of an illegal occupation.
You state that those in the military today deserve "absolute respect". Absolute respect for what, in occupying another country against its will? If another country occupied the United States, would you think that those troops should be given absolute respect for terrorizing Americans? Those who should be given absolute respect, as you put it, are the members of the IVAW [Iraq Veterans Against the War] who have courageously stated that they will no longer be a part of a military that has illegally and unjustly occupied a country that was never a threat to anyone in these United States.
It would be wise to recall the closing lines of Bertolt Brecht's poem, General, Your Tank Is a Powerful Vehicle:
General, man is very useful.
He can fly and he can kill.
But he has one defect:
He can think.
This is what the military is most terrified of, that those who have joined the military will finally realize that they indeed have a brain and that the best way to bring an occupation to an end is to have it happen from within.
diamondmc @ 24:
I havent sent anyone to do anything. I have relentlessly opposed these thugs starting in 1999.
Dont lecture me. This is a criminal war. No quarter. Following orders or patriotic duty offer no absolution. Sorry that you consider principles elitist.
CoIntelPro against Repug DoucheBaggery @ 42:
That makes no sense. What part of anyones life are they not responsible for? We are all responsible for all of our respective lives. No excuses - no blaming someone else. You cant be instructed to do a wrong thing and be absovled.
Oh yeah, drafts have a long history of making sure EVERYONE has to sacrifice equally. Well, except maybe for the wealthy, oh and the powerful, and let's not forget the well connected, and the children of politicians, and the biggest exempt group of all FEMALES.
How exactly is this supporsed to make this war more fair.
I keep hearing, AD NAUSEAM, people talking about how men and women, sons and daughters will be drafted. Where the hell are people coming up with this shit? Has there ever been a single woman drafted in the history of this country? Has there ever in the history of this country been a woman sign up for selective service? Do most women even have a real clue what that is and what the process for it is and what the consequences for not signing up for it are (for men)? Is there a SINGLE female here who has ever signed up for selective service?
This is part of the same mythology that tells us that females serve in infantry units and serve regularly, as opposed to by accident or by rare happenstance, in combat.
If females are not and have never signed up for selective service then how on earth are they going to be included in any possible draft? And if they aren't included then how on earth can anyone say that a draft would even the playing field and ensure that everyone is expected to make a equal sacrifice?
I served 12 years in the USMC, including a combat tour in Kuwait in ODS. I keep hearing these ignorant statements being made over and over by people who seem to be oblivious to reality.
I just wanted to clear up a few of the misconceptions.
diamondmc @ 24:
We need more elitists!!!!
"Elitist" means that you can see that a murderer in a uniform is still a murderer apparently. There is nothing the average american citizen can do to end this anymore, short of armed insurrection. Having followed orders that directly resulted in hundreds of thousands if not millions of dead innocent iraqis i don't have much hope that this military wouldn't follow orders that resulted in thousands of dead "american insurgents" or "unlawful enemy combatants" whatever terminology is adopted. The power to end this horror rests solely with the american soldier, "i was only following orders" neither a valid legal or moral defence, but sympathy can be felt for those that recognize the error of their ways. Comparisons have been made to the U.S.S.R.'s experience in Afghanistan during the 1980s, i would prefer we look at our situation in the light of events that brought an end to Russia's involvement in the first world war.
RISE UP SOLDIER AND BE HUMAN ONCE AGAIN
Erroll @ 60:
You have my admiration Erroll, I'll be looking for that film
Let us build a new kind of army that is too smart to fight and too smart too kill
euthyfro @ 64:
That's an analogy I've also used, if a dangerous one. The situation post-1917 in Russia was the worst that could have happened to the Tsardom. Tsarist pogroms are well-overdone by Kathyn and the gulag.
1917 may have replaced the evils of the Tsars, but the Soviet regime that replaced them made even Ivan the Terrible and Alexander III look sweet and nice.
The American elite and current system needs to be fixed, it's obvious, but few people bother with what to replace it with. If we replace the Bush system with a system that ends up being worse like the Russians did the Tsars...
Not only history won't forgive us, humanity won't forgive us.
The Repocons actually did learn a lot from Vietnam, like, having a draft during a stupid war can loose you the Congress and the Presidency. They also learned that a drafted military that does not respect its leaders does not fight well and will say so out loud. And that they, their families, friends, ministers and future draftees will take to the streets to stop the stupid war.
They also have learned that mercenaries are loyal to them and not to the nation. We should be very afraid of a Government that relies on the loyalty of paid killers.
Therefore do not look for a draft until the Democrats are back in charge. The reinstitution of the draft should be one of their highest priorities, assuming they don't screw up once again and loose the Presidential election and the Congress.
Listen to the wisdom of the founding fathers, they knew what they were doing then they created a “civilian” military.
Right, we need more elitists who talk a good line about what other people should do while they sit in their nice cozy house with their nice cozy job and take this high moral line, about what GI's should do. You do know that it is death by firing squad to desert your post in a combat zone? When will you put your life on the line to stop this WAR? When are going to stop paying your taxes to stop the war? Not gonna happen is it? I hate this war as much as any of you but the difference between you and me is, I would never ask anyone to do something that I myself wouldn't do. Like I said before, we are all to blame for letting this goverment do what it has done in our name. Untill you are willing to put your own life on the line, you have alot of balls asking other people to do it for you.
The reinstatement of the draft is the easiest way to not only reduce multiple tours, but to end this madness early. Especially if there is a truly color blind and money blind lottery. I'm not here to blow my horn but I did a fairly good spin on this back in March or April.
It`s not his war,it`s George Bush`s and Dick Cheney`s. I went through hell to try to avoid the draft in 1966.Then they found out I was Blind in one eye.They thought I was faking it,but then they got my medical records.I really didn`t consider it a handicap. Now, they would overlook it because they have become like those they serve--liars.
My advice-don`t go back."Live long and prosper,."as Mr Spock would say
So everyone knows my bias up front, I'm a former Marine with 2 tours in Iraq and I could get called back even though I'm out, too. So here's what I think.
Deciding who serves in the military will never be a fair process. Yes it makes me angry and bitter. But solving that problem with a draft is the wrong solution. A policy of indentured servitude would hurt both the conscripts and the volunteers by placing them in a depraved environment full of desperate people willing to do anything to save their own hides. I don't care whether it would stop the war or not on those grounds alone.
But I firmly believe that it would have no effect because the makeup of the military would not change - people from the same exact walks of life would still be serving, just the morale would be even worse. You've got to be an idiot if you think that the opinions of soldiers themselves matter to anyone at all, whether the general public or the policymakers who send us over there. If the makeup wouldn't change, then the support wouldn't change, either. End of story.
Vietnam didn't end because of the draft. And the protests never had any effect on popular support, either. When I see old photos of indignant draftees burning their draft cards, I can't help but think that they were only out there in the streets because it was their own ass on the line. It was just another generation of chicken hawks in the making mixed in with delusional hippies and the occasional groups of actual veterans (the only thinking bunch in the whole lot as far as I'm concerned, with exception to the true Noam Chomsky intellectuals). Losing the war was what played a role in popular support. Americans aren't against wars, they're just against losing them. But losing was not enough to end the war, either. The war ended because it ravaged the economy. It caused a ripple effect of recessions that lasted well into the 1980's and we're still paying off the debt we incurred as a result of war spending.
Speaking of the economy, that is the biggest part of the whole war machine. I have absolutely no respect for those people who choose career advancement opportunities at home and talk condescendingly about those of us who do go out and serve. Choosing career advancement at home, driving our economy up, that is exactly what feeds into being able to carry out the war. Hell, just about the only group who does not contribute to the treasure chest are the soldiers who are out there risking their lives.
Does that seem inconvenient? I'm sure it does. It's much easier to comfort oneself with pacifist ideologies and think that this will help make a difference. It's much easier to condescendingly talk about the Pat Tillmans of this world as "adventure seekers" and "naive" and "unthinking". And here is where the level of cognitive dissonance gets really bizarre. While everyone acknowledges that cutting off the funding would be the surest way to end the war, nobody actually questions where that money comes from. There is a weird parallel between those individuals who refuse to serve when they very well could and those policy makers who refuse to cut the funding when they very well could. Both are more concerned with their own sake, their own careers. Both feel that the best thing to do is to launch some sort of political process, some ideology enabling change that will fix the problem. Both feel that they shouldn't have to make a sacrifice so long as they feel the right way about it. Both ultimately blame others when the surest way to bring about peace is within their own hands.
sully18 @ 70:
You do know star trek was a tv show? Also, would you be willing to do his jail time for not going? Maybe when he gets out you could give him a job with his dishonorable discharge? I suppose that would be to much to ask.
diamondmc @ 72:
I`d give him a job doing what I do-helping vets with PTSD.I saew too many of my friends come back and blow their brains out cause they couldn`t get help.As for doing his time,he has to make that decision.
sully18 @ 73:
And whose going to give him the money to do his job? That's not up to you. You're in the wrong line of work to be handing out jobs.
bbk @ 74:
Oh, you mean because nobody wants to pay for psych help or addiction treatment?Well that`s why I started my own business.
sully18 @ 73:
I have also lost brothers to war. I served in the 25th infantry Div (wolfhounds) 67-68. I have nine of my brothers on that black wall in DC that I think of everyday of my life. I get very upset when I hear people on this thread who have never risked one hair on their head to stop this war calling GI's who have served murders. I saw the same thing back in the anti-war days, when a small part of the movement said the same thing. They would show up at a anti-war rally with their signs, and then run home to catch themselves on tv. Some of us who where in VVAW came home and put our lives on the line again to stop that war, while others called us murders. Its that kind of elitist bullshit that pisses me off.
diamondmc @ 68:
" Until you are willing to put your own life on the line, you have a lot of balls asking other people to do it for you." That statement is not only crude, it is also wrong. One would think, going by your logic, that those in the IVAW would resent those who are speaking out against this idiotic occupation when just the opposite is true. Those in the IVAW fervently desire that other Americans will support what they have done. At the Veterans for Peace convention in Seattle during the summer of 2006, Lt. Ehren Watada told the veterans sitting at the dinner banquet [of which I was one] that:
"If soldiers realized that this war is contrary to what the Constitution extols-if they stood up and threw their weapons down-no President could ever initiate a war of choice again. When we say, 'Against all enemies foreign and domestic,' what if elected leaders became the enemy? Whose orders do we follow? The answer is the conscience that lies in each soldier, each American, and each human being. Our duty to the Constitution is an obligation, not a choice."
"If we want soldiers to choose the right path-they must know beyond any shadow of a doubt that they will be supported by Americans. to support the troops who resist, you must make your voices heard. If they see thousands supporting me, they will know. I tell this to you because you must know that to stop this war, for soldiers to stop fighting it, they must have the unconditional support of the people."
Watada went on to recall the words of an American icon:
"Martin Luther King Jr. once said, 'History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period...was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people.' "
The lieutenant and MLK Jr. are of course right. Those in the military today need to know that their actions will have the full backing and support of the American people. Supporting those who speak out is the best way of supporting the troops.
The brothers and sisters in IVAW are not calling on their brothers to revolt and throw down their arms. They also are not calling them murders. Supporting all troops is what america needs to do, but words don't mean shit. Untill the american people are willing to stand up with the troops and try to stop this war, its nothing but alot of hot air.
bbk @ 74:
And I say that with the sincerest respect for what you're trying to do. But there were two questions posed and you only answered the easy one, with a platitude. You know full well the impossibility of your answer. Besides, would you really have deserters who believe that being a soldier is a war crime give advice to veterans with PTSD? I know you don't feel that way if you're really trying to help.
bbk @ 79:
I don`t understand your original question.I agree that Iam not equipped to hand out jobs,but I disagree with your premise of calling someone who for their own moral reasons does not want to re-up, a deserter,especially after they did their first tour.
Some people on this thread would blame the troops for this war, instead of the American people. The people of the world say this is America's war not bushes. We all let this happen in our name, and most people have washed their hands of any blame. All you have to do is look at what the number one issue is in this election. Its not the war its the economy, its all about them and how their life is going. As long as I have a nice house, a nice job and I can shop at wall-mart I don't give a shit. When I hear some people say I'm against the war, I don't see much difference between them and the repugs and their I Support the Troops crap.
diamondmc @ 76:
I have been to the wall and I also have brother`s on it,I protested with guys that came back from Nam and killed themselves because they were messed up.They`re not on the wall,but they were victims of the fucking war just the same.Now I help those guys if they let me.I have a friend who was a gunner on a helicopter for three tours. He went through hell when he got back.He`s now a Buddhist monk.Another friend who I was on the line against Iraq war before the war started thanked me for being out in the streets in the 60s because he thought it got him home faster.
We`re all brothers in this thing.We all want the same thing peace.
sully18 @ 82:
You brother are one of the good guys, and my venting on this thread has not been directed at you. If there where more people like you, we would not be in the mess we are in. This is one combat vet who say's THANKS....
No man I understand where you`re at.I`m there too.What I`ve found out through going through years of PTSD myself is that we have to grieve these loses, and we do that by sharing our feelings about what happened, and that`s how we heal. I support your feelings and I thank you cause we`re all helping each other.
sully18 @ 84:
Thanks brother... Its these kind of posts that I have a hard time with. People who have never been in combat can never understand what its like. I have spent 1/2 my adult life trying to get people to understand with little success.
diamondmc @ 78:
"The brothers and sisters in IVAW are not calling on their brothers to revolt and throw down their arms." Lt. Watada certainly is, as I quoted him in my second paragraph at comment #77. According to your logic, the IVAW should be bitterly resentful at Watada for having made that statement. But we know this is not true [or at least we should know] because 50 members of the IVAW came on stage just before Watada gave that electrifying speech [which received at least a half dozen standing ovations from veterans and other members of the audience]at the VFP convention in Seattle in 2006 to express their solidarity for Watada. Since I happened to be there, let me assure that not one member of the IVAW who was on that stage walked out when Watada made that statement.
I do agree with you that, as Watda pointed out, more Americans should be supporting the troops for the stand that they have taken against this most unnecessary occupation. But I must strenuously disagree with you when you claim that the soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan are not "murders." What do you call it when American soldiers kill Iraqis at checkpoints, benevolent occupiers? This is why Americans will never "win" in Iraq or Afghanistan, because of the logical and simple reason that they are viewed as occupiers in their country. Do you know what the word empathy is? Try imagining how you would feel if foreign troops occupied the United States. Would you not consider those foreign soldiers murderers? I, and I suspect other Americans, would certainly feel that way.
In the powerful documentary Sir! No Sir!, former Green Beret Donald Duncan made one of the most cogent statements in the film, when he noted, "I was doing it right but I wasn't doing right." Dave Klein, who was severely wounded while in Vietnam and would later become president of Veterans for Peace, observed that "Your silence [referring to the soldiers] is keeping that lie going." The hope is that those soldiers who are illegally taking part in the occupation of Iraq and Afghanistan will finally come to those realizations before more Iraqis and Afghanis are killed and maimed and crippled for no justifiable reason whatsoever.
diamondmc @83 I also want to thank you.My friend the soldier turned monk wrote a book called At Hell`s Gate.It tells what happened to him and has happened to a bunch of other Vietnam vets.If you want to read it his name is Claude Anshin Thomas.It` a damn good book.
sully18 @ 87:
Thanks, I will get it.
diamondmc @ 88:
I also think that you could do some good for yourself and other vet`s if you were to look up a Nam vets` group.You have a lot of insight to share.
sully18 @ 89:
Would love to see more vets come around. I have been a member of VVAW and I am a member of Viet Nam Veterns MC.
diamondmc @90
Here`s a link to Claude Anshin Thomas`s web site.He does a lot of work with Vietnam vets.He might be a good resource: http://www.zaltho.org/.He helped me connect with people at the 2005 peace rally in Sept., 2005.
Here`s a link to Claud Anshin Thomas`s web site : http://www.zaltho.org/.
He might be a good resource because he does a lot of retreats for Vets
Sorry about the double post,but the first link won`t work.
Why not refuse to deploy?
Andy @ 94:
Very well said. A position that Lt. Ehren Watada has taken, who has been vilified by not only by Americans but also, incredibly, by those who consider themselves to be liberals, apparently proving that even liberals can allow their brains to shut down when enough people wave the flag and yell patriotism.
One of the best ways to display one's patriotism is to support those who have said NO to the U.S. war machine.
sully18 @ 80:
If they do not report for duty at a time when they are to go over, that does make them deserters and it's pretty hard to wiggle out of that one. I got ticked off because one of the questions was if you'd offer up to take the guy's jail time. I know what you meant, I know you feel that you would do everything in your power to help. But the question the other commenter asked you wasn't about whether or not people wish they could help.
So stop your whining and become a hero. Refuse to go. Pretty simple.
Anyone who willingly participates in this illegal invasion and rape of Iraq is a co-conspirator.
Jim @ 97:
Okay jackass, go sign up right now so you can be just like Watada. That's what a hero does, right? Be like Watada. Lead by example. It's easy to promulgate sitting at home in your PJ's sipping coffee, isn't it? So who the hell are you to talk about heroism?
Watada is a fool. The only difference he made is that his men went to war without him, without his leadership. What the hell was he thinking? This guy signed up after the war had started and waited until he finally got told to go before claiming to have done "research" on the matter. He could have asked for a transfer to another unit, one going to Afghanistan, well in advance. Units get warning orders up to a year in advance before a deployment. Why didn't he take action sooner? He even refused a desk job in Iraq when the Army offered that. At this point, he had two choices. Conscientious objection or a court martial. He refused conscientious objection. Why? I don't know. IMO that's where it becomes bullshit. The idea that you can serve in the military, or even just be an American, and wash your hands clean of all the wrong choices our country makes, that's bullshit. I don't agree with that sentiment at all.
Jim @ 97:
So are you proud to be an American? Yes? No? Be a hero - get a bumper sticker that says "I Hate Myself For Being American" and drive around with that. That's what you're asking soldiers to do, only 1000 times worse for them.
But you wouldn't do that, would you? You'll just drive your kids around in your fucking SUV and teach them about how "safe" your little white suburb is. You know what? I got mugged the other night by 2 men. I beat one of them up pretty good, but the other one still ran away with my cell phone. When I was buying a new phone this morning with the gashes on my face from the fight, some little bitch ass 6 year old kid with his dad told me "that's too bad mister - we live in a good neighborhood." I'm out of the Marine Corps now and finished college. I'm a software engineer now and make more than enough money to move out there to the suburbs. I don't. I live in the fucking city and I *walk* around my neighborhood because that's the moral thing to do. At least my car isn't killing the planet. We fight wars over oil and create global warming so some asshole father can teach his son that they're too good to have to take any chances in a neighborhood with poor folks in it. Anyone who willingly votes in a democratic process that brings about such onerous results as our current government has got their dick hanging out as much as anyone else. So what the hell do you know about being a hero, buddy? What sacrifice have you done? Paid 4 bucks a gallon last night and bitched about the economy?
bbk @ 99:
You never addressed Jim's point, which is why should American soldiers who are illegally and immorally occupying Iraq and Afghanistan should somehow be considered "heroes." Kindly explain what is supposed to be heroic about shooting and killing Iraqis at checkpoints and bombing Afghan villages and breaking down the doors of innocent Iraqis and torturing Iraqis at Abu Ghraib and committing atrocities at Haditha. The irony is that you relate how you were recently mugged in your hometown while Iraqis and Afghanis run the risk of being mugged every day by American soldiers that you seem to view as being so heroic. You also have the temerity to smear Watada because he dares to say NO to the U.S. war machine. Apparently the last thing that you wish to see happen is for anyone in the military to actually think for himself instead of acting like a robot by blindly obeying whatever the military tells him or her to do.
How about the members of the IVAW? Are they fools also, as you claim Watada to be? If you claim that they are not, then perhaps you can explain why the IVAW fully supports Watada in not deploying to Iraq. Or perhaps in your muddled view of the United States, anyone who refuses to engage in an illegal occupation is a fool. That, of course, is an emotional position to take and does not make for a very persuasive argument.
At comment #71, you made the bizarre claim that those protesting the Vietnam War were somehow insincere in their beliefs while also stating that the protests had no effect on ending the war. If you had actually bothered to read the Nixon tapes or read the transcripts of those tapes, you would have discovered that those protests did indeed have an effect on Nixon, as Nixon complained to H.R. Haldeman about the size of the crowds that took to the streets as a protest against Nixon escalating the war and the bombing raids in Cambodia. Also, many Vietnam veterans who returned to the United States protested the war in the early 1970s. According to you, these veterans should have somehow resented the presence of the protesters. But they did not, as that would make no sense at all, since those veterans were very much in accord with the opinions of the protesters.
Apparently bbk is that liberal anomaly, who seems to be against what is going on in Iraq but yet criticizes those in the military who recognizes that the U.S. is wrong in occupying Iraq and Afghanistan. A perfect example of cognitive dissonance in action.
Erroll @ 100:
GRrreat post, Errol.
What I find strange is so many of those claiming to be progressive or liberal (I claim to be both), will absolutely REFUSE to speak out against "the troops". Like "Support The Troops" is some mantra that we have to all blindly follow. It makes no sense. I DON'T support the troops. I DON'T support anyone who willingly follows murderous orders. Perhaps in the beginning it was at least understandable, but not now it is simply not consistent to say you against the invasion and support the troops who are doing the invading.
bbk @ 99:
Am I proud to be an American? Right now, absolutely not.
I don't have kids and I don't drive an SUV, my car gets 70 mpg.
I don't live in a suburb and I'm not white.
And...I don't support the troops.
Deal with it.
I think the trick is , not to hate the troops. I'm not saying you do, but we have to be careful not to give the repugs any ammunition.So they can't spin it and use it against us.
Jim @ 102:
Do you have a job? Yes? Then you support this war. You live in this country. You pay your bills. You shop. You eat. You pay your taxes. Your life's work contributes to the system which you say you're not responsible for. Are you not familiar with social contract theory? You're every bit as blameworthy as anyone holding a gun. You just don't realize it. And that's the problem. I didn't ask you if you hate Americans. I asked you if you hate yourself. You didn't answer the question.
And you recognize no problem with the vast majority of Americans upon whose preferences the entire system is built. You'd rather just blame the troops. The rest of the world doesn't have this problem. They don't blame our troops. They blame Americans. All of them, not just George Bush. Only Americans with blood on their hands are looking for ways to wipe it off, whether it's liberals or conservatives. In our country, it's nobody's fault.
I never said that troops are heroes. What you and others of your persuasion have been saying here all along is that those who refuse to serve are heroes. What I said is that this is bullshit. This is a society. For a society to be great, and for any part of a society to be great, it requires the very best of its citizens to participate in those areas. Refraining from participation is misguided. It's like not voting because you don't like McCain or Obama. It's your damn fault if McCain wins if that's what you were to do. The same thing is true about military participation. It's your damn fault if the military commits war crimes, if upstanding citizens take on the attitude that they don't have to strive to be the enlisted, NCO's, and officers with their feet on the ground. I put liberals who think they're too damn good not to serve in the same exact boat with the rich conservatives who feel the same exact way.
You think our military is easily corruptible? It took 1 week for a university study to get students to start torturing each other. All of them, without exception. It took years of necon policies to corrupt a few units the same way. And for every racist Christian redneck who gets to go have his way in Iraq, there's a self proclaimed enlightened liberal who refuses to take his place. With people like you refusing to serve, it's no wonder our military tortures people. You know how much good Watada could have done in Iraq? Lots. Having a conscience is the most important part of fighting a war. But instead of realizing that he was qualified to lead troops into battle, he decided that the troops can go fuck themselves cos he wasn't going to have any part of it. Does he think he's the only one whose against the war whose fighting in it? Fuck that! All those people who are against the war who are over there aren't torturing people, aren't indiscriminately killing civilians at checkpoints, and aren't doing the things that you think make servicemen murderers, but not you.
That should be..
I put liberals who think they’re too damn good to serve in the same exact boat with the rich conservatives who feel the same exact way.
Oh yes, and you know what? If even a quarter of our troops were as liberal as some of the people on this blog (ahem... you people), then politicians like Bush would be too damn scared to use the military any which way they please.
Don't believe me? Look at the way the Soviets used martial law to try to stop unionization in Poland in the 70's and 80's. They used the Polish army against the Polish people. They lied to troops and told them that the protesters were doing all kinds of evil things. They let them read government propaganda newspapers which were just full of lies. This resulted in a military that was capable of occupying its very own people. But the troops learned. Eventually enough of them got to go home to their families and find out what was really going on. And the media loosened up and the soldiers got to read some truth in their newspapers. By the late 80's, at the height of the Solidarity movement, the Soviets did not dare use the Polish military against its own people. They were too damn afraid of opening up the armories and handing out guns and bullets lest they be aimed in the wrong direction. And their own army was too bogged down in the middle east to risk a war on two fronts with Poland. So the presence of even a mildly liberal Polish army was instrumental in the peaceful abolition of Communism in Poland.
Politicians aren't idiots. They're not going to use a liberal army to commit war crimes. Do you think they haven't taken notice of this? Look at how they've been shifting military bases further down south to more conservative areas over the years. We're letting it happen. We've set ourselves up for this fiasco and it took decades of apathy to get there.
Erroll @ 100:
What? Jim's point is that he hates the troops. He considers them all murderers, so when I'd say hate is actually a really light word. He thinks the author of the "My War" blog is a murderer because he's getting sent back to Iraq. He paints soldiers red with a wide brush. And he thinks he's better than them.
How did I smear him? Did I call him a Muslim or something factually wrong with the intent of lying about what he was doing? I did not. I called him a fool because that's what I think and I backed it up with the reasons of why I think that way. That's not a smear, buddy. I disagree with what he's doing. You know what's a smear? Calling the troops murderers even though the vast majority of them risk their lives without killing anyone while they're there.
You know what's funny as hell about Watada? The neocons think he's a fucking riot. Now they know that they can do whatever they want with that unity because the leadership who would vocally oppose wrongdoing is gone. And they even provided an amusing way of letting Watada express his political views - volunteer to get himself arrested. Yes, I think that's all Watada accomplished. He got himself arrested and/or kicked out of the military. Does that make him a hero? No. It doesn't do anything except violate the principle that the best of our citizens should be the ones serving in our military.
In fact, as much has been said on this thread by veterans who protested the war back then. Read the thread:
I have also lost brothers to war. I served in the 25th infantry Div (wolfhounds) 67-68. I have nine of my brothers on that black wall in DC that I think of everyday of my life. I get very upset when I hear people on this thread who have never risked one hair on their head to stop this war calling GI’s who have served murders. I saw the same thing back in the anti-war days, when a small part of the movement said the same thing. They would show up at a anti-war rally with their signs, and then run home to catch themselves on tv. Some of us who where in VVAW came home and put our lives on the line again to stop that war, while others called us murders. Its that kind of elitist bullshit that pisses me off.
I am a liberal anomaly because I take full responsibility for the society I live in, instead of blaming others for it. I am an anomaly because I don't take the easy ways out. Thanks for the compliment.
bbk @ 104:
I think that it would be difficult to discover a comment that is more devoid of intelligence than this one. Where to begin? Let us start with this gem. You scold Jim by telling him that "It's your damn fault if the military commits war crimes, if upstanding citizens take on the attitude that they don't have to strive to be the enlisted..." In the next paragraph, you follow that up by telling Jim that "With people like you refusing to serve..." You also decide to again take Watada to task, by illogically stating that "But instead of realizing that he was qualified to lead troops into battle..."
Perhaps you can somehow intelligently explain to us why Jim would want to join the military, since he recognizes that he would not wish to be a part of an organization that is committing atrocities against the Iraqi and Afghan people. What happened at places like Haditha and Abu Ghraib came as no surprise to the Iraqis, since they know that the treatment that they receive at the hands of the Americans occurs in Iraq on a daily basis. When the Afghans see and feel bombs raining down on their homes and villages, I seriously doubt if they will look kindly upon their American as "saviors." Read the writings of Dahr Jamail or Nir Rosen or Robert Fisk or Patrick Cockburn or any other independent journalist who have confirmed the veracity of what I have written. As I wrote at comment #60, rent or buy the documentary Sir! No Sir!, which told the story of the GI Resistance during the Vietnam conflict. If you were to do so, you would see the soldier, as I described at comment #60, who said that "being a clerk typist does not get one off the hook, since it means that one is still a part of an organization that engages in the brutalization and killing of a people that were never a threat to anyone in these United States."
Likewise, you continue to condemn Watada for not "... lead[ing] troops into battle." Against whom, the Iraqi people or the 2 percent of the foreign jihadists who are fighting against the U.S. and coalition forces in Iraq? Watada's case is analogous to your illogical harangue that you have written against Jim. Why in the world should Watada "lead the troops into battle" since he realizes that he could not in good conscience lead his troops against a people that never threatened anyone in these United States? That is the honorable position that he has taken. He was even willing to testify at his court martial that the Iraq War was undertaken for most specious of reasons until the judge decided to bizarrely declare a mistrial, over the objections of the defense counsel, no less.
I carry the psychological scars that I bear from being in the military and as a consequence from what I experienced while being in Vietnam. I have tremendous guilt for not having disobeyed those orders that I was given while contributing to the needless deaths of many innocent Vietnamese people. That is why, contrary to what you believe, that I most certainly believe that Watada is a hero, along with the members of the IVAW. That would include people such as Camilo Mejia and Kevin Benderman, who went to jail for refusing to be part of the war machine in Iraq. The people in the VVAW [of which I am a member] and those in the film Sir! No Sir! are heroes, a word that is so often thrown around that it has practically lost any kind of legitimate meaning. As Sir! No Sir! tried to point out, and what Camilo Mejia and Kevin Benderman demonstrated, not everyone in the military are robots, incapable of thinking for themselves, which is what the military brass is most terrified could happen to those who are currently in Iraq and Afghanistan.
You state correctly that "Having a conscience is the most important part of fighting a war" but then you inexplicably condemn Watada for doing the very same thing that you speak of in such laudatory terms. You condemn the military for torturing people but then amazingly excoriate those who refuse to be a part of a military which unjustifiably uses these actions against those whom the United States oppresses.
There is a huge disconnect here but I can assure you that it is not with myself or Jim or Watada or the members of the IVAW but rather with an individual who calls himself bbk.
Erroll @ 100:
The more I think about this post, the more I realize how remarkable it is.
After falsely accusing me of smearing, you misrepresent the opinions of posters whose side you are taking, who are smearing troops by claiming that they are all co-conspirators and murderers.
Then you accuse US troops of being petty thieves by comparing them to muggers. By choosing to make a hasty argument, you imply that American troops in Iraq are envious of the personal possessions of Iraqi civilians at checkpoints. Not only is this a smear, but it's inconsistent with the smear that they are murderers, not muggers. And you claim that it's ironic that I don't see how an argument that I made can be used against me - when taken completely out of context.
You also confuse the individual opinions of anti-war veterans 30 years ago to an official policy position of an organization 30 years later. And you ignore those very individuals when they post on this thread by claiming they don't exist.
Then you smear the thousands upon thousands of military servicemen who are Democrats and liberals by calling them an anomaly. On top of being murderers and muggers, of course.
And of course, the most alarming part of it all is that others here believe that this was a great post.
Because this is the level of rigor that you apply to your own posts, I'm not going to be responding to any more of yours.
mudshark @ 103:
In all due respect, it's that kind of reasoning that made John Kerry come out and salute the convention, a terrible move.
Saloum @ 110:
War criminals should be prosecuted, this is true. But the idea purported by some posters that liberals who support the troops think of war criminals as heroes is just a strawman argument. It only makes sense if one believes that all servicemen are murderers, which in turn is a pretty terrible smear.
All that said, why is it that this kind of reasoning is why John Kerry, a Vietnam War veteran, someone who was wounded in action 3 times and jumped into a river full of gasoline under fire to save his fellow sailors, is misguided for saluting at the Democratic convention?
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