Running on Empty: Cars that Never Need Gas
By SilentPatriot Tuesday May 13, 2008 2:20pm 
Can you imagine a day when you never again have to pay for gas for your car? Or never pay for a tune up? Or never pay for the electricity that powers your house? Well, with some actual leadership from our elected officials, the days of cheap and clean energy are not some far-off pipe dream. Read this article from the SierraClub and imagine the possibilities.
SierraClub: (h/t Bill W.)
"Five years ago, I spent about $45,000 and got a brand new car (the RAv4EV) and the solar system," he says. "We're still driving the car every day, and the solar system will continue to make fuel for whatever EV we drive in the future. For $45,000 we bought a new car and fuel for the rest or our lives."
Asked how long it will take for the PV system to pay for itself, Dickey replies: "If we think of everything in terms of what it costs us in the short-term, we're screwed. It's the same argument people use against the Prius: When will it pay back in gas savings? But that only accounts for the money paid at the pump. What of the billions of dollars that leave our economy for oil, or the billions of our tax dollars that go toward tax incentives for oil companies? What of the cost of the military and the lives lost to protect our oil?"
$45,000 is no doubt a significant amount of money. But if we invest in this now -- like we should have been for the past 20+ years -- the price will naturally come down. Darrell Dickey hits the nail on the head when he says we need to think of this modest investment in contrast to the billions of dollars that leave our treasury every year for oil.
Here's my favorite quote:
My wife has not been to a gasoline station in seven years and 70,000 commute miles—not once!"
Imagine the possibilities.
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Honestly, when I think of all of the commercials I see even in this economy advertising cars that are $40,000 plus this doesn't seem that expensive or crazy.
There is no possibility of ongoing profit so it will never be mass produced. IF one is silly enough to think that government works for the benefit of the people, one is naive. Hopeful, optimistic but naieve.
If the government were not in the hands of Big Oil tools we'd already by building the
Solar Grand Plan
Oops!
Somebody said fuck it....I ain't waiting.
This is the single most pathetic aspect of Senators Tweedledum and TweedleDee...no a squeek out of either of 'em about this.
Although Big Dog was jawin' about the high price of Lithim Ion batteries and the mystery of why the price for these suckas wasn't falling.
Tony @ 1:
The 45k includes the solar system.
45000 not necessary (at least in Cali!)...Oh baby, i've got mine reserved http://www.aptera.com/
To Average Joe's point, there is still upkeep and maintenance, and battery cells. The industry standard is once the battery drops below 80% capacity, it has to be replaced. So, granted, not the same as constant trips to the pump, but still ample opportunity to screw consumers later on.
An Average Joe @ 2:
So?
Yer good with $8.00/gal gas?
Is that right?
While I'm certain that I'm far from the first to concoct this theory, I mentioned to a pal the other day that running out of oil is really a mixed blessing. Sure, we'll have to adapt (already, I see friends and family members planning around when they have to use the car, due to how expensive it is to fill up now), but the planet will be better off. And while this aspect of it is more far-fetched, I wouldn't be surprised if getting rid--or reducing the amount--of plastic will lead to improved health - specifically, a dropping cancer rate. But like I said, this is really just wacky armchair speculation.
First of all, pick up the excellent documentary 'Who Killed the Electric Car?', which wasnt (for whatever reason) nominated for a Best Documentary Oscar. Seriously...I dont understand this nominating committee...they didnt nominate 'A Fistful of Quarters' either (granted, it was not as politically or socially important, but it had a 98% on rottentomatoes, so come on...).
Second of all, consider the price of gas is $4 a gallon and my car get 25 MPG (which is not bad...not outstanding, but not bad). Basic math will tell you thats 16 cents per mile. Since most new cars are $20-25k now, that means that you'll have saved the other, lets say, $20k in 125,000 miles. Thats not bad...barring accidents, most cars go WAY beyond that, but it gets better....
Finally, one of the big reasons cars die of old age is because the engine block of an internal combustion engine gets, literally, burnt out. So not only have you saved money in gasoline, youve saved a ridiculous amount in replacement parts as well.
The price of this car will come down as the technology improves, but i have to tell you...the price is good right now...
Oh! And I forgot to mention the bit relevant to this post: Whereas few would previously consider investing in automobiles that run on anything but good ol' gasoline (especially since electric cars, as an example, were incapable of the same speeds that cars running on petroleum were capable of), now we're all desperate for alternatives. Water? Sure! Compressed air? Fantastic! We'll end up with slower-moving vehicles because people will prefer that to nothing at all (or a car that costs over two hundred smackers to fill up).
A.Citizen @ 7:
In Canada, I'm already paying $1.40/liter for my diesel - that's approaching $6 a gallon. You'll be lucky if it stops at $8...
$45k for a car that never needs gas?? plus the big tax rebate i'll get in cali? -- this is a GREAT investment for myself and the environment. as far as it not being mass produced...if the demand is there, why not? tesla is starting to do it, why won't someone else? if people buy them, they will build them. the oil companies know this, why do u think they're gouging us now -- to fill up their coffers before it's time to board up the shop windows. eattheblinds.blogspot.com
If we'd had only started back when Carter gave his Malaise Speech a lot of people would probably be driving these things by now.
I've imagined, but my premises and conclusions are a bit different, sorry to say...
A.Citizen @ 7:
No, not at all..you missed my point. My point is, the government looks out for corporations, not the people. I hope to God I'm wrong about this someday but I know I'm not with these clown in there now.
An Average Joe @ 2:
Hey, guess what? That kind of attitude guarantees that you're right. The fact is, this is the kind of thing we can change merely by making it so. The problem is that most Americans are (metaphorically) fat and lazy. We're too happy with an economy that doesn't force us (yet) to live in grass huts and caves and drink from the same stream we use as a toilet. So we don't rise up against the rampant injustice all around us. If only we would get off our fat asses and start demanding our government govern properly, it would have no choice but to do that. If they refused, we'd just vote them out and replace them with people who knew which side their bread was buttered on.
In other words, the problem isn't that the government refuses to work for us. The problem is people who have just given up and accepted the status quo.
Got the solar system. Now waiting for them to bring back the RAVeV.
awesome, driving can become an exclusive luxury for the rich
Too bad YOU CAN'T BUY THAT CAR!
These are wonderful stories, but that's all they'll be is stories if the manufacturers continue to refuse to supply the damned vehicles.
When people talk about the "high" price of alterative fuel cars they seem to be speaking from the viewpoint of other cars in the same size class. This almost completely misses the point.
Personally I couldn't care less about having a "status" car so $45,000 seems well worth it for me regardless of car class.
Shade Tail @ 16:
Spokwn like man of the 60's, as am I. What are you doing to change the status wuo besides posting on a blog?
Meat @ 10:
Well, if it ran on water, in Georgia, at this point in time, we wouldn't be driving. Air, sunlight, maybe - but not water.
Travis @ 17:
Oh, any way you look at it, it will, it will...
Boy, I've got to start checking my typing. These fat fingers are making me lose face.
its sad that the people who can afford these high priced clean cars are probably people who have stock in oil...
If it doesn't roar when you hit the pedal, then mainstream America will never buy it. American men need to show off the size of their penis and little green cars won't do it.
Remember the Dodge Hemi ads?
Matt @ 5:
Electric? I'm no expert, but the solar is true green, baby.
Finally - that free lunch I've been waiting for.
Thanks to big oil we're already 50 years behind where we should be and that's just in advances in vehicles.
If this solar system was any kind of real threat they would have already suppressed it.
And 45000 may not be a lot to pay for what you are really getting, I agree, but I don't know a single person who could afford it. On any terms.
Rusty Shackleford @ 27:
LOL. Exactly.
Hmmm,
Okay - sounds great, but........
Listen , I'm not against this stuff but the power supply isn't up to it - at least the power storage we use now.
The Rav EV has a range of 80 to 120 miles before another 5 hours of recharge.
I live in northern BC and a 600 mile day trip is a common enough thing.
How about storaging the energy as kinetic (flywheels perhaps).
I hear all this talk about the environment - have you any idea the pollution contributed by batteries?
More money needs to be invested in the technology, we are barely there as far as power storage.
my two cents people
BruceJ @ 18:
They can refuse...............we can DEMAND.......you know, the supply & DEMAND concept. I've been depressed for the past seven-plus years. I now know a new age of reason is dawning...............can feel it in my bones. Look out, because there's going to be a quantum leap in the energy arena.
But where is she going to buy her lottery tickets and junkfood if she never stops for gas?
Michael Avery @ 30:
Good Lord, man. What are you, a trapper...?
Electric cars as they stand for the immediate future are probably locked to urban usage.
Michael Avery @ 30:
Yes sir. The only "eco-friendly" battery we know of (the Earth) is close to being drained of its economically useful stored solar power (oil).
It can happen but my suggestion is don't be expecting a magic wand or instant gratification solution. The sky's the limit for young people in post industrial hydro carbon technologies if they would take the initiative. But you must be prepared to swallow the critical opinion of the world in order to succeed.
watch who killed the electric car, that docu was very frustrating to watch! but very informative.
$45,000 initial investment...........
and how much are we spending per person per year to stay in Iraq????
Boy, such an inspiring story.
Too bad several things get kind of a passing mention and not much discussion. Like not everyone lives in California. The Sacramento area (where Davis is) has sunshine 78% of the time during the average year, and 188 clear days, ranking 6th in the US in terms of sunniest cities (it's sunnier on average than LA and San Diego).
Now trying that solar-power holier-than-thou attitude in, say Buffalo, Cleveland, Seattle where not only are there a lot fewer days without clouds, the sun is at a lower angle (solar less less efficient), you have to clean snow of the solar panels, the car needs heat (which, if you aren't using an IC engine, means you aren't getting it for free) which reduces battery charge, and so on. And don't even get started on Canada...
This is great, but out of reach from most, myself included. I'd need a raise in the range of $30,000 to be able to buy a $45,000 car (I live just north of Boston, and it is expensive here!). With stagnant wages, I don't expect that to happen anytime soon.
brokenarrow @ 31:
I've been depressed too. Unbareably so, actually. Things are going to get better though, I think. We've got a lot of convincing to do to make it happen though, and I think a lot of bad things will happen while we're doing our convincing. It's not magic, but there are more of us every day to do the convincing and the work.
For instance, the USDA BioPreferred Program made some progress today by finalizing 27 new categories of biobased products that will be given purchasing priority over petroleum products by the federal government. Sure, we need to fix a few sustainability problems with these products, but we ARE MOVING FORWARD, even if it feels like we're standing still. (link: http://www.usda.gov/oce/newsroom/news_releases/51408rev_biobased.doc)
I have never paid for gas or a tune-up for the car I don't own. My neighbor has solar panels for his home. I buy good food for my body, to fuel and repair. I invest in good gear for staying warm and dry. I walk and bike. I'll hire a ride when I need too.
I want a sky-car or similar, to stay clear of black-ice and moose. Too many of us lose life or health to these obstacles.
L.A. Confidential @ 13:
As I recall Carter had not only a national energy plan, but also had a national water plan (basically TVA for the nation), and a set of serious election reform proposals -- all of which if passed at all were gutted to the point of being ineffective.
If I remember my history correctly the obstruction of Carter's plans and proposals primarily came not from the Republicans, but rather by way of Tip O'Neill (in the House) and Robert Byrd (in the Senate), who were quite busy stabbing Carter in the back... repeatedly.
Tip O'Neill, some of you may recall, went on to become one of Ronald Reagan's most dependable ass-kissers.
When oil hits 200 dollars a barrel, as it inevitably will, it will finally dawn on people that Peak Oil has been reached, and the end of the oil-based industrial civilisation is here.
All the technology-fetish wishing in the world will not help then.
Oh my god....
In the wiki page under "Public Availability" it is casally mentioned why this battery driven car can no longer be legally produced.
For the lazy reader ... it has something to do with Chevron/Texaco and the patent rights of the battery pack.
Depressing......
John @ 43:
Nobody's listening to the likes of us. We're just nattering nabobs of negativism, doncha know...
Screw the hemi ads, heads up kids ...
http://www.teslamotors.com/
http://www.gizmag.com/vectrix-electric-superbike/8395/
...
Everytime i see a hummer up here in Edmonton AB I want to hurt someone.
If the U.S. gov't didn't do a diddly-darn thing about the energy crisis beyond simply repealing the massive tax subsidies for Big Oil and instead offered that money up as tax credits for consumers to buy these solar power systems and cars, just that alone might start a demand and investment cascade that could start to turn this whole thing around.
With one piece of legislation.
We'll see if it happens. I won't hold my breath.
Brendan @ 33:
Yes, and we all live in igloos. Just recently we discovered the toilet...
British Columbia is bigger than California, Oregon and Washington combined. It's 50% larger than Texas. Just the trip to Prince George from Vancouver is 465 miles, and that's just halfway up the province.
48# Yeah a lot of the early adopter electric vehicles have range issues and are impracticle for long haul drives that are a common part of Canadian life. Still it wouldn't hurt to consider them for town/city driving. The technology still has a long way to go, but the early adopters and city commuters will pave the way to better technology.
Pimmelorus @ 44:
Oops, forgot to add a closing tag. Repost that does not hurt the eyes that much.
This car, nor any other self-contained electric vehicle, will "run forever." It's got things that wear out and need replacing just like any other car.
In particular, batteries wear out and must be replaced periodically. Doesn't matter if it's an all-electric, a Prius, or the rechargeables in your Wii controller, they wear out eventually. I've heard huge figures--100,000 miles--about some well-maintained EVs (in particular, NOT running the battery pack all the way down), which I find surprising compared to the EVs I'm familiar with, but even if it is a very long lifespan it's not infinite.
The real issue, though, runs deeper and really ends up effecting the entire individual-vehicle-oriented transportation system of the US. Between the energy used to manufacture a car (of any type--just the steel etc), which is huge, and finite supply of the materials used in batteries (lead, nickel, lithium, etc), it's questionable whether it's even physically possible to maintain a country of 200+ million people almost all of whom own a vehicle. Also not forgetting that paved roads are made in part from oil.
Then there's the amount of generation capacity that would be necessary to sate the transportation appetite of a country addicted to driving.
Basically every single aspect of American society when it comes to "urban" planning and transportation infrastructure is based on cheap energy. All the alternatives to oil are NOT cheap. They're not prohibitively expensive, but they're not cheap, and pretty soon oil will stop being the fallback because we've eaten through the cheap reserves.
Meaning you'd better start planning on a society structured around energy costing on the order of $8-10 per gallon-of-gas-equivalent, regardless of its source. Not at all coincidentally, a lot of other countries are already well in that direction--much of Europe and Japan, for example. Japanese people aren't living in huts, it's one of the highest-tech nations on the planet, it's just a lot more energy and resource efficient. (Japan's food imports are another story, of course, but that doesn't apply to the US as much.)
As an alternative, how about the government just invest in a decent public transportation system, like just about every other industrialized nation on earth (or, heck, this one before GM and Standard Oil started playing dirty)? Then you've removed the range restriction on electric cars, the necessary distribution system, the immense cost of individual replacement, etc. It would require a significant restructuring of the entire transportation and suburban infrastructure, but it may well be the only choice.
This isn't to say that doing what this story says isn't a bad idea--in fact, if the US government fails to adapt fast enough and the infrastructure collapses, you'll be glad you did. But it's not a plan that's likely to work for the entire US, even if people were willing.
And by the way, for those assuming "they" will come up with something and/or "they" are having their discoveries hidden by big evil oil corporations, you're wrong. I am "they"--I work at an alternative energy and fuel cell research lab. In fact, we built the first licensed, street-legal fuel-cell-powered vehicle in the US. Hydrogen energy storage, fuel cells, electric vehicles, and various other alternative energy technologies are all important, and if the government help and research dollars were going into those things they would be more available, better, and cheaper than they are now.
But so far as I've seen, there is no "magic bullet"--just harsh physical reality that the 200 mpg carburetor is an urban legend and if Toyota could build a $10K all-electric vehicle that could go 500 miles on a charge they sure as HELL would, because they would sell millions of them. Maybe I'm overly pessimistic, but being an engineer that works with fuel cells, PVs, and hydrogen energy on a daily basis, and reading the industry magazines and hearing from the industry conferences, you get that way.
Expensive energy is coming, and it's likely to be permanent, so you can either prepare and adapt, or suffer.
Pimmelorus @ 44:
The patent expires in 7 years.
YOU STILL PAY THAT + $45k.
But really, that's pretty cheap for 8 planets, 20 or so dwarf planets, and 1000s of asteroids.
70,000 miles/20 mpg=3500 gallons X $3/gallon=$10,500. X $4/gallon = $14,000.
And you know gas is not stopping right here. Add in never having to go to the gas station? Of course we'd all miss the restrooms though...
Marc @ 51:
Thank you for this post, Marc.
Keith @ 52:
Hmmm ok, but I still feel kinda shocked that Big Oil obstructs initiatives like this one in this way.
Billy Shears @ 42:
One of the main reasons the Democratic Party died in the 1980's and 1990's, and is in serious need of a high colonic even now. So many DINOS.
And we've had almost 40 years that we've known oil was not infinite, and the incentive of having to import it from overseas to make us work on alternatives. Somehow, the "magic of the market" failed to provide any incentive to fix that problem. Mostly because we allowed it to be controlled by a cartel and allowed our politics to be influenced by the needs of that cartel.
So all I can say is a funny Yoda-like quote from an old Star Wars parody:
i'll pay 45 k for that car right fucking now. one thing that no one anywhere has mentioned about the oil prices is the commodities market for light sweet crude. the commodities markets are loosely regulated and that means real fucking loose relative to all the other loosely regulated markets in the good ole usa. when enron, duke power and others got the electricity markets deregulated in california they quickly created and dominated a market for trading utitlity price futures. prices quickly shot through the roof and electricity bills tripled or worse. that was just a test case for what is happening now in the light sweet crude futures market. the scum that buy and sell futures are obviously rigging this market to drive up the price of a barrel of oil. they are protected by exxon mobil et al and of course president darth cheney and his minion w. remember the secret energy policy meeting after w and cheney stole the first election. this was all planned. i really believe that gas prices at the pump will go back down once w is gone and probably even drop after the holiday at the end of the month. i know i need to cite evidence to back all this up, but i'm selling on the phone right now as i type this. others please comment.
tp @ 37:
Excellent point.
Pimmelorus @ 56:
This has been going on for decades.
My father-in-law worked all his life in the auto industry. He worked on an electric car project, I believe it was in the 70's, maybe the 60's. The project turned out a level of success that led to GM buying it (the ownership rights) and making sure that it was never made available to the public.
Here's my policy: When you discover someone is dishonest you should immediately assume that you do not know the full extent of their dishonest actions.
Brendan @ 33:
LOL, grand.
How would I be able to take a 500 mile road trip in an EV?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j6b4qbBvkAc&feature=related
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/alternative/112_0803_2008_tesla_road...
#62 You'd have to take a couple hour break midway to top up the batteries. Keep in mind the ICE has a hundred year advantage in learning curve. Something like the Tesla Roadster however makes up for it by being a 105mpg ferrari with short range. The technology needs more R&D, i just cringe when I think about 98billion dollars a year went into nuclear weapons research for 50 years straight or somesuch, crazy ...
Brendan @ 33:
Aye,
When I'm not battling with fierce polar bears or clubbing the heads of seals.
I hop on my snowmobile and travel the artic looking for meat......
or
I live in a northern community that pumps out 12% of manufactured product in all of British Columbia.
The nearest town is about 50 miles away so with the RAV EV I might or might not get back.
Perhaps you make sure everybody has gone to the bathroom and leave the spare behind, drain the windshield washer reservoir a bit, anything to conserve weight.
How about where the power is coming from to power your recharge - After you replace those batteries - how much of that power pack is thrown away.
Solution #2?
Take a flywheel and encase it in a cynlinder where a vacumn is present.
Crank that puppy up to about 100,000 revs per sec
Depending on how many of these and how heavy they were I believe determines the force of energy involved
Now that you have this energy you draw from it like a generator.
I'm probably getting this all messed up but as I read it they were working on this in a copy of Wired from a few years ago.
(i'll dig up the particular issue here as soon as i can dig it out)
I bet it would have a faster recharge time.
How 'bout it eh?
Marc @ 51:
Sure there's good reason to be pessimistic about the technology alternatives. Nothing will probably ever be as cheap as oil in its heyday, and society probably has expanded beyond a level that's sustainable on a non-oil energy substrate. Societal change is going to have to accompany technological change.
But I think therein lies the glimmer of optimism. Phallic-obsessed hemi drivers aside, people are increasingly ready to change, and are only going to be more so as gas prices continue to go up.
And it really would only take small individual changes propagated to a society level to make a substantial difference. For instance,
If we could convince everyone who drives a full-size SUV that, yes, you can get by just fine with a mid-sized SUV, and everyone who drives a mid-sized SUV that they can get by just fine with a small SUV, we'd save more oil and gas each year with no technological advances than we might ever will in trying to get people into Priuses and EVs.
If we simply made sure there was a working air pump at every gas station and convinced people to keep their tires inflated to the correct pressure, we'd save more oil in a single year than all of what is sitting under the ground in ANWR.
I don't think these are insurmountable challenges, so yeah, I think there's a little cause to be optimistic too.
I have been talking about the Tesla ever since I saw the first picture and read the specs. The inevitable comment is always "$100,000, who can afford that?". A Dodge Viper costs about $80,000 and gets about 10mpg. I don't hear anyone blow that model off as a completely impractical vehicle and that Chrysler is crazy to develop and sell such a vehicle. If a dealership appeared in every town tomorrow selling a $20,000 electric car that had a range of 300 miles it would sell like crazy but the overall mix of vehicles would take years to change. Many people need to tow trailers or boats. Trucks and construction equipment will be diesel for many years to come. The idea that this country and our infrastructure are not ready for electric cars is nonsense. I would guess a majority of the people in the US could switch one of their multiple vehicles to an electric with a 120 mile range tomorrow and never be inconvenienced in the slightest. I have not left my state by car in over 4 years, why should I drive a car every day based on it's ability to take me on an impulse trip to Vegas? I can always rent a mini-van if I need to make the long haul. It reminds me of the millions of huge 4-wheel drive pick-ups in this country whose tires have never touched anything but pavement. Imagine if the $500 billion we have spent in Iraq would have been invested in renewable energy and electric vehicles. Forget hydrogen, just another scam to keep us lined up at the pump.
I was intrigued, read up from posted url’s and found Toyota quite making the RAV4EV in 2003. Typical. Toyota blocks increased gas mileage standards just like our rust belt automobile companies.
Duane @ 69:
Exactly. If it was affordable, people would buy it. Most people I know couldn't afford a $45,000 car. If they could, they would all be driving Mercedes Benzes, instead of the crummy broken down cars they drive now. And you can talk about the price of gas all you want, that doesn't change what they are able to afford. One thing I do know, the scooter dealers are selling those scooters as fast as they can get them in. Years ago, only people who lost their license drunk driving rode those things, now all those people who just can't afford to own and maintain a car are using them.
BruceJ @ 19:
You can't just not buy that car, but Chevron has done everything in their power to make sure when the ones out there need a new battery, it's not available. They inherited the battery patent when buying Texaco who bought in from who else...GM who were the worldwide leaders in this technology before deciding 12MPG SUV were the future. Watch who killed the electric car and you can't help but be pissed.
Makes me sick every time I see one of those Chevron banner ads on progressive websites or their enviro friendly commercials on TeeVee.
Aside from the money saved on gas, think of how much time you save by not having to go to the gas station.
Man, I would love to get my hands on one of those.
I always cringe when I see people taking seriously the issue of when the Prius will pay back. I paid under $25000 for mine, and consider it a direct competitor for space and capacity to the Camry I replaced. The Camry was a little more expensive. By my estimates, the Prius pays for itself when you take it off the lot.
has anybody mentioned that this car is no longer being manufactured, that "Toyota discontinued the RAV4 EV program one day after the passing of new air-quality requirements by CARB. CARB eliminated most of the Zero Emissions Vehicle requirement"?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_RAV4_EV
Read further down in the Wikipedia article - third party vendor replacement battery packs for the RAV4EV were selling last year for $26,0000. Life expectancy of the battery is not mentioned - probably depends on number and depth of cycles. You have to add that in to the cost of electricity in figuring the equivalent gas mileage, and it is not cheap.
if you are waiting for a car that doesnt depend on oil , good luck ! at any price it wont be done , do you really believe the oil companys will give up selling gas or oil changes ,it wont be done untill the last barrel of oil is found and the earth is bone dry of black gold, not only that the government is not going to standby and watch a whole industry dissapere, gas stations ,oil and lube stations thousands of jobs lost just so you can never pay for gas again get real, and even if a new source of energy for moveing cars is used the oil companys will own them, where the hell you think your in a free country?
who killed the electric car???
and why were tax incentives for buying electric cars removed, while being given to those who bought suv's?
20 years of research down the tubes?? how about 30, as it was carter who wanted this research to go forward and reagan who killed it
and its more than not paying for gas....gone are oil changes and lubes...gone are tuneups...gone are most of the costs of upkeep
if the money was there for r&d, the price for these vehicles and the replacement batteries could be well within reach of all americans
life expectancy of the battery IS mentioned -- 300,000 miles.
more importantly, "Toyota discontinued the RAV4 EV program one day after the passing of new air-quality requirements by CARB. CARB eliminated most of the Zero Emissions Vehicle requirement." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_RAV4_EV
personally, i think the biggest problem (aside from lack of availability) is the distance limitation. i have a car that i use primarily for visits to clients in boston and environs -- 140 mile round trip for my most frequent client visit.
An Average Joe @ 2:
That's true. This would mean death for most of the auto industry in the long term, but so will peak oil. Somebody will probably make these sometime, but it might be too late.
RAV EV had a top speed of 78 mph. That would get me run off the road for being a slow poke in Houston.
Ted @ 81:
I'd think that, in an oil town like Houston, you'd be run off the road for driving a solar powered car before you ever got it on the highway.
Here's more on battery replacement cost. Toyota specs on battery life is presented in http://www.greencarcongress.com/2006/07/toyota_outlines.html
Toyota RAV4 EV
Motor Permanent magnet
Max. Power 50kW / 67 hp (3,100-4,600 rpm)
Max. torque 190Nm / 140 lb-ft (0-1,500 rpm)
Battery 288V NiMH
Recharge time 6 hours
Battery life 1,200+ Charging cycles
Max. speed 78 mph (electronically limited)
Max. range 126 miles (combined EPA)
85 - 100 miles real world range
At 1200 charging cycles, 100 miles per cycle, you would get 120,000 miles (maybe more) from a battery pack before replacement; at $26,000 for replacement that works out to 22 cents per mile not counting interest (which would up the price the longer you stretched the use). Add that to the 9 cents per kWh, $2.70 for a full cycle charge (or 2.7 cents per mile, equivalent to 111 mpg) estimated in the Wikipedia article. It may be a great car, and maybe the battery costs would come down with mass production, but don't be bamboozled by the Sierra Club article's enthusiasm into thinking that buying a RAV4EV has freed you from worring about fuel costs.
Matt @ 5:
Three wheel cars will never make it. The stability of 3 wheel designs is insufficient as an be shown by any freshmen physics student.
The Buckminster Fuller Dymaxion car from the 1950's demonstrated this instability and cost a human life. Once again real science is being ignored
by the unwashed and therefore serving to postpone a real solution to this problem.
Asking why I can't make a 500 mile trip now is like asking how you can fly over the Atlantic after the first Wright Brother's flight.
Hey, is everyone just givin' up on the Segway? It's gonna change the way we live!
This is a tangent, and probably of slight concern now, but a friend of mine mentioned that these EV's are silent. (The hemi quote made me think of it...) And as they design them more and more for no wind drag, keep a heads up. Until we get accustomed to this... pedestrians, kids, bicyclists, (not to mention deer and the slow moving possums around here) are going to have to keep their eyes (and ears peeled) as these vehicles start to show up in your neighborhood. I'm all for EV's. (Check out this EV as it leaves a 500 hp Dodge Viper in the dust ! http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=pm6gD6r3-cw ) But as a cyclist, I rely on my ears to know if anyone is coming up from behind. Just a thought.
I come from a country awash in energy, called Iceland. 45.000$ is a standard price there for a jeep this size, a gasoline guzzler. Gasoline in Iceland costs four times (!) as much as it costs in the states. Electricity costs 1/6th of what it costs most places in the US - It is incredibly cheap, more or less provided by the nation, for the nation. Recently actually, the american aluminium company has been bribing icelandic politicians to give them the energy almost for free, but there is still plenty left for such an effort as this.
Why on earth is this company that creates the EV not selling 50.000 cars of this type a year in Iceland? There is not a single person there that wouldn't buy it because gas is so expensive that it would pay for itself in a few years. Especially when taken into account what the other damn cars cost.
...and talking about the cost of batteries and the limited life time of those shows the lack of belief in that these things will be developed and improved at an amazing speed as soon as there is a market for them - Money to be made. And whoever makes the most efficient battery wins.
...not hearing cars sneak up on you?? Come on, you'll need to look where you're going before turning, so what? And if that's not enough, there are about a million ways to make cars give off noises while driving. Just to name one (silly) thing, how about a whistle attached to the hood?
Underground Pirate @ 84:
From http://www.aptera.com/ask.php
SAFETY
How safe is the Aptera? What about the body strength?
With safety being our top priority, we have raised our standard beyond the requirements of a typical passenger car. Nothing is normal or standard for the Aptera so why should we stick to "normal" safety standards? For example, the Typ-1 roof is designed to EXCEED rollover strength requirements spelled out in FMVSS(Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard) 216 for passenger cars. The doors also far EXCEED mandated strength requirements for passenger cars as does our 45" frontal impact deflection and crumple zone. We decided not just to meet many of the requirements for passenger cars, but we chose to exceed them. Industry safety standards are very different for passenger cars and motorcycles; we are choosing to go well beyond the industry safety standard for passenger cars so Aptera drivers can feel safe in any driving situation.
What are some of the safety features unique to the Aptera?
The Aptera's composite safety cage is similar to Formula-1 cars. Our "Eyes Forward" vision system allows for 180 degree rear sight. There is a display panel in the driver's field of view which enhances situational awareness allowing you to keep your eyes on the road. The over-sized LED turn indicators located on the rear and side of the vehicle are easy for other drivers to see, adding greatly to the night and day visibility of the Aptera.
How stable is the Aptera? Can the Aptera easily roll-over?
Unlike many 3-wheel vehicle designs that were abandoned in the 80's due to their instability the Aptera has two wheels in the front and a single rear wheel eliminating any tendency to roll-over. The Aptera also features traction control, a low center of gravity and a wide track width which makes for a very stable platform that increases cornering stability without sacrificing performance...
... These guys are using real science, don't pooh pooh the idea til' you check it out next time.
Cheap oil? Won't happen. Not unless Asia stops growing, which won't happen. And why the hell would we want cheap oil anyway - so we can consume more fossil fuels? Cmon now C&L, success stifling the critical thinking?
Better get used to expensive energy. Better get used to a way lower standard of living than the previous oil guzzling generations gorged themselves on. What, no one but the top 1% can afford to take vacation trips? Boo effing hoo. Forced into car pooling or bus riding because your transportation bills ate up half your take home income? Get over it. Time to buy a bike and find living space within a couple miles of work. Say goodbye to the far flung exurbs cause very few will be able to afford the goddamn energy to drive out there. Wth are all the soccer moms gonna do when the monthly bill for shuttling around the youngins costs more than a flight today from NYC to Ohare?
My commute vehicle is zero emissions, 100% renewable fuel, the vehicle cost only a couple hundred dollars, and parking is free. It is called a "bicycle." Here in Portland, Oregon, 6% of commuters use bikes almost exclusively, and many more people use bikes periodically. Great for the environment, great for the pocketbook, great for personal health. Bike to work; work to live; live to bike!
Ah, now this is the sort of thing I like to see at C&L; something genuinely progressive.
Too bad I see so many yip-yip-yippers picking nits in an attempt to tear the article apart; sorry, pal: "solar-power holier-than-thou attitude" is a dead giveaway, and your understanding of solar power is mired in--what, the '80s? Another commenter thinks it won't work for anyone because he needs a long-range all-terrain vehicle, and besides--what about the batteries? Yeah, everyone else has to keep their fume-spewers, all of them, because a solar car doesn't suit one guy and there are still issues to contend with.
And so on.
For some people there are no baby steps; it's all-or-nothing. The solution has to be flawless, universal, and all-encompassing, or else it's a complete failure that cannot, must not, be pursued.
We don't emerge from the womb as fully-developed humans, let alone Gods; get over it. Personally--and because my situation permits it--I rely completely on public transportation and my own leg power. But I still have to breathe, and this is the sort of advancement (and article) that excites me and gives me hope for the future. I'm not about to shit my pants just because these new vehicles still use batteries.
mah head hurtzez...!!
The (nano)technology is almost to the point where our vehicles can be covered in paint that also gathers solar energy. Our houses could be covered in it, not just the roofs.
Nice idea but will it be possible for America to switch its entire car and truck fleet over to EVs? My guess is "no." Instead of trying to keep our cars on the road by any means possible, it would make more sense to invest in creating more livable towns and cities that don't require us to drive everywhere.
Only problem I see is that not everyone owns their own house upon which to install solar panels. If my apartment building started going solar (and ran a plug into the parking garage for me), I'd be lining up to reserve one tomorrow.
Underground Pirate @ 84:
I see at least three incorrect assertions in that sentence.
If everyone got a car like this, our electricity distribution grid would need a big upgrade. Our electric utilities are mostly in bad finances or worse, so I don't see how this is going to happen.
Even if we had the grid to support this, where, oh where, is the electricity going to come from?
This is not an answer, it's trading one problem for another one.
Seems like another story that's good on the surface until you look at the facts. The car uses old inefficient NiMH batteries (Li ion is currently the best on the market) has poor range, and isn't even made anymore. I'm sure it'd do a great job charging up in the winter in New Hampshire where I live. It doesn't help that the guy incorrectly attributed the photovoltaic effect to Einstein who came up with the photoelectric effect.
Why isn't C&R doing a story on the Telsa Roadster, it only cost about twice as much, could easily be fitted with photovoltaics and you could actually get laid if you drove that car.
There is no way one can power a car with roof mounted solar cells in much of this country. Seattle residents would only be able to drive to Starbucks once or twice in the whole winter.
Fran Taylor @ 99:
From "Iraq War Economics" http://mindprod.com/politics/iraqeconomics.html
For example, even back in 2003 before the USA doubled its military spending, it was still spending more than all the other countries of the earth combined. There is no way that sort of expenditure is justified purely for defense. Note that the bogeymen the USA claims to fear, Iraq and Iran are not even on the map.
Remember the campaign slogan, "a chicken in every pot"? Well, with what we've spent already there could be "a solar panel on every roof" or wind turbine, etc. I'm well aware that oil and war lobbies are running our economy into the ground, but hey, I'm still hoping a few far sighted politicians can turn the debate around. The fact is that we have just thrown trillions into a black hole, when we could have been working on these problems years ago. What Joe Republican needs to realize is that this is a national security issue.
Really that's only the cost of two nice cars, the amount most people spend ANYWAY.
My family only drives 5 miles to work and there are 2 workers doing that.
Then there is 2 trips a month to town and one to the doctors'.
We are so low mileage and so poor and so old we can't afford this car, but if I were younger I'd do it in a heartbeat.
That ain't gonna make Ford/GM/ whatevers left of Chrysler very happy... Not to mention all those mid-east oil magnates who like having us by the short hairs... At least not until they figure out a way to charge us for the air we breath.... They're workin on that.... Another few clean sky initiatives and they ought to have the air quality just about where they want it... and us..... Be annoyed... be very annoyed.....maybe even a little pissed over this latest.... We're being played folks..... I just don't think there is any other way to discribe it... IF this technology exists, and we as a planet haven't already transitioned in a major way to it... Well, what's that tell ya??? JD
So much crap around, about "green cars".
It doesn't matter how the car works. What matters is the source of energy.
This car will drive on coal. A car on petrol is much greener.
The whole "solar" thing is very nice, but will need a bit more investment as a practical solution.
|| The whole “solar” thing is very nice, but will need a bit more investment as a practical solution.
We continue to be fed lies in order that we believe the technologies we have available today are unworkable.
Our home has solar hot water. We live in New England. Most people (ignorant and uninformed) immediately think it's foolish: can't work. Between early May through mid-October, nearly 100% of our water heating is provided by the sun. Over the winter the average is 50%. The pump that circulates glycol through our panels is photo-voltaic (runs off the sun). Less the cost of the equipment and installation, which after 7 years has already paid for itself in savings, our energy costs for showers, laundry, and cooking are very small.
The only way we could afford to use an electric car was to join a test program. We did so several years back. Our commute was 60 miles a day. Our car got us to and from work reliably with no problems. The only inconvenience was remembering to plug it in at night. Transferring from gasoline consumption to charging the batteries overnight via the public electric system shifted the energy burden to (at that time, pre-Bush) a well-regulated and less-polluting mode.
We spent a small fortune to purchase a Toyota Prius. We could not live with ourselves running a car that gets 30 miles/gallon, which is where most of the "fuel efficient" cars seem to be these days. Pathetic. As the cost of fuel aligns with what the Europeans and Japanese are already paying, the investment in a car we can squeeze 50 miles/gallon from will pay off.
In several EU countries, notably Germany, the state-owned electricity utility is paying homeowners MORE per kilowatt hour of electricity if they feed back into the public grid. This single step has greatly increased demand for P-V in Europe. This progressive and thoughtful government stimulus will have several good effects: it will reduce reliance on the wackos in the middle east for their oil; it will reduce pollution; it will enhance grid reliability; it will mean lower prices for P-V on the world market (as manufacturers increase production and efficiency, cost will go down).
The best 'Murca can do is send out a "stimulus" check, written on an already overdrawn account. What we could do is stimulate the solar industry for the long term, just like those hideous "socialist" nations (the ones who actually care for their own people). What we could do is immediately employ the technologies ALREADY HERE for electric generation and water heating. More studies and research are not needed. These are stalling tactics. We have the tools and the brainpower. What we need is a government that gives a damn.
Of course there is no "one size fits all" solution for the disappearing oil problem and it's disingenuous to try to frame it that way. We've gotten into this problem because of single source providers of energy. Something happens that allows/forces them to raise prices and *everybody* gets screwed.
As soon as we decentralize energy production we won't be held hostage by the latest oil baron, crook o' the day. Solar where appropriate, wind where appropriate and those uptight Seattleites can power their cars with wave energy. Of course, the problem with distributed generation of power is that the money mafias can't get their monthly check from some other guys pocket.
That said, there is already a solution for fur trappers with long distances to go. Plug in hybrids, upwards of 100 mpg. Conversions are being done to Priusii as we speak. For some reason though, the auto companies just can't figure out how to do them.
Further, most recharging of electric or electric hybrid vehicles is done at night when there is excess capacity.
How much has the Iraq war cost every US citizen so far in money terms? We could have applied this money to subsidizing our transition to solar and electric cars and sent the middle east a big FINGER. Oh, but then Geroge the Texan Bush and Dick the Wyoming Cheney would not have been bringing in huge windfall profits to their pals in the oil and gas industries and the arms industry, including the Saudis, the Iranians, the Venezuelans, and all the other countries that overtly or covertly sponsor the very terrorism that we are so afraid of. Blood for profits.Insanity.
If you haven't seen the film "Who Killed the Electric Car?" from a few years back, you should see it. It reminds us that electric cars like this one that don't need gas at all and came in a range of sizes were successfully marketed during the 90s, with lengthy waiting lists, but that auto companies not only ceased making them but also required the cars' owners to return the cars for demolition after a short period of time. The film explores the reasons behind this and gives lots of good history.
Toyota stopped offering this car in 2003, and nothing has replaced it. How come the discontinued car just now makes this blog?
Through penalties or incentives (in combination or take your pick) the govt should try to make sure that every new home built in the US had solar panels and add a tax incentive for people to add solar to existing homes. Then sink as much or more Fed funding into R&D and production of solar panels and electric cars as they do now for ethanol and big oil subsidies and it wouldn't be that hard to do.
Of course, all that depends on having a government that actually did something that made sense instead of catering to the all mighty big lobby buck.
akovia @ 110:
Perhaps it's because the Sierra Club just published this article? Just sayin?
For those that seem leery of Aptera's 3-wheel EV design, check out Phoenix Motorcars company. They offer an electric SUV and SUT (Sports Utility Truck) that will go for about 100 miles on a 10 minute charge off a 250 KW charger (5-6 hours off a 220 V outlet). For a while now, the company has touted that production models would be sold in mid to late 2008. For 2009 they plan on releasing a 200-mile vehicle.
They used have an estimated price on these vehicles (about $36,000 to $40,000) on their site. I can't the price now so I'm guessing maybe it was an underestimate...
Check them out. Put yourself on their waiting list and anyone tell me if they contact you - I've been on the list for over a year now and no word from them (It probably doesn't help that I live in Southern New Mexico while their company is based in California).
http://www.phoenixmotorcars.com
Correct me if I am wrong, but I haven't heard anyone suggest that people "build their own EVs."
There are millions of gear heads out there with tons of know how, and loads of double Es. We do not need to wait for corporations or the guvment to show us the way. Put solar panels on your roof, buy an old, light weight car or truck, pull the motor, make an adapter to bolt up an electric motor to the existing transmission, install the needed number of batteries, and a controller, then drive away.
If you can do most of the work yourself I doubt it would cost anywhere near $45,000.00. If not, then I would estimate $20,000.00 tops.
#114... Dan, sounds good to me (but I have very little know how). I do have a beautiful broken down VW Karman Ghia convertible sitting around under a tarp in the back yard... Hummm.
Just don't want it to end up looking this silly for God's sake...
Forever Electric car ( by wind force generator) http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=bkcn8ZkvKKc&feature=related
#114 Dan, Sounds great (but I have very little know-how). I do have a beautiful old broken down VA Karman Ghia convertible under a tarp out back... hummm
Just don't want is to end up looking this silly (LOL)...
Forever Electric car ( by wind force generator)
http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=bkcn8ZkvKKc&feature=related
MargeAggedon @ 29:
Living in Texas and not in California I can tell you there isn't a solar system that can run my air conditioner through the summers. However if I can save myself $200-$300 in gas and shave a hundred or so from my electric bill I can afford a $45,000 payment no sweat. Giving the finger the oil companies....priceless.
When Guy Negre's Air Car comes to the market, made by India's Tata Motors, I'll get one. In the meantime, I would get a scooter (if public transit weren't so good where I live). Many get better than 100mpg right now.
The Air Car needs less than US$2 in electricity (free, with solar panels) to compress the air in the tanks for 200km (130miles), and a top speed of 110km/h (70mph), so why not? And tire pumps at gas stations can be used to refill them as well.
The only reason we're waiting for non-gas cars to hit the market is protectionism by the oil companies and car manufacturers. The technology already exists to kill off the dinosaur-powered dinosaurs.
115 yill, the Karman Ghia would make a pretty good platform, plus they look cool IMO.
Thanks for the "fan car" link, Rube Goldberg would have loved it.
117 Chopvac, you are right, the compressed air car is very viable and sticks to the KISS principal.
Andy K Jong Il @ 86:
its gone the way of the dodo bird andy! where the halls the seat? its got no rear view mirrior! no glove compartments for our condoms! cant be controlled while were eating a sandwich or drinking coffey , and you cant use your cell phone ethier! not to mention if you got a hot date thats willing thiers no back seat to get laid in, the disadvantages are legion farewell our old two wheeled friend ,
There is value in other things besides money.
I bought my Honda Civic Hybrid to reduce emissions. If I can remove that one femtogram of pollution that pushes someone over the hump into emphysema, cancer, giving a child a birth defect, then it's paid for itself. Or if that femtogram delays the onset of global warming (weather is chaotic and small changes can have huge effects) then it's worth the extra money.
Gas economy is just icing on the cake.
But there's one more reason for good gas economy: reducing demand reduces prices (Econ101). So it follows that gas hogs increase demand and so increase prices. Another reason to hate SUVs (Saudi's Ultimate Victory? Saudi's Underwrite Violence? Satan's Unholy Vehicle?). Of course The Hydrocarbon Industrial Complex colludes to keep prices high (Evil666), but at least they can't point to higher consumption as an excuse for the higher prices.
Regarding H2... it is only an energy storage medium. As long as it takes energy or results in other carbon emissions (2H20 + energy --> 2H2 + O2 or CH4 --> C + 2H2) or carbon emissions that can't be sequestered easily (Pardon my Chem101/201... it's been > 2 decades. I don't know the details of getting H2 from methane) it only moves the emissions to another location. There are way too many details and unknowns about this, but the take away is that H2 is not pollution free or carbon neutral at this time.
E Pleb Neesta
GODISNOWHERE
If HPV vaccination causes promiscuity and unwanted pregnancies, then confession promotes sin.
It's been suggested, for at least the immediate future, that a transition to a diversity of fuel sources for vehicles is the way to go. Obviously, the death of the ICE is exaggerated. Also, the Sierra Club love-in for solar powered vehicles is arguably a realistic glimpse into the future; however, the crack about biofuels is already antiquated, as second-generation BTL fuels are coming on-line, which are soundly argued to utilize existing and near-future ICE technologies, while not depleting food-stock biomass. That is, trucks, trains, planes, ships, etc. can run on it, with minimized environmental impact (cf. petro-fuels), few or no modifications, and comparative power. What scares me is that Shell is a "partner" for the BTL facility in Germany.
For now, though, high fuel prices have legitimated my 15 year habit of utilizing public transportation. The one time every two months I do fill up does hurt more - but I've further adjusted by riding my bike more and walking. I guess I should thank Big Oil for my improved health.
Dan @114:
Here ya go...
http://www.electroauto.com/index.html
That's just one of many companies that sell conversion parts and kits. Have at it.
Lots more info here...
http://www.eaaev.org/eaalinks.html#IndividualConversions
(scroll down to the EV Photo album to see what folks are tinkering with...)
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