A Tale Of Two Pastors
By Nicole Belle Monday Jun 02, 2008 5:00pm
Both presidential contenders Barack Obama and John McCain have found it necessary to disavow support they've received from pastors they've described as "spiritual mentors."
While Barack Obama has to continually answer for things that have been said at Trinity United, SteveAudio finds that John McCain not only has escaped the same kind of scrutiny, but has actually not hurt himself at all with the religious conservatives to whom he tried to appeal by disconnecting himself from Hagee and Parsley.
No one on the right, NO ONE, cares about Hagee, with the possible exception of a few moderate genuine conservatives, that is. All 3 of them.
But the far-right Evangelical end-times Christians, for whom Hagee is a dog whistle the size of a Marshall stack, will still support McCain, even more now than before. Not only is he a "true believer" by courting and wedding Hagee, but now he's been bloodied by the secular humanists that threaten the Christian way of life. His rejection of Hagee's support isn't a betrayal of Hagee's prophecy, but a tactical retreat in the face of the abortionists, school desegregationists. and gay-marriage supporters whose defeat his administration will hopefully bring about. And thus is a stronger hero born.
It's a no-lose situation for McCain. Stay beside Hagee and he appears committed to the religious right that he derided in 2000. Disavow Hagee and the religious right sees it as proof of their persecution at the hands of the evil secularists, and rally around their perceived martyr.
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ok if kane and abel were brothers who was the first mother f'er..answer me that
It's OK to be crazy if you are republican, no one will notice.
Obama and McCain have a lot in common!
the both voted for the patriot act and both give chimpy all the money and troops he needs to continue the illegal war.
both have some crazy pastors...
I dont see much difference between the two...
I would have expected no different reaction. Persecution looms large in the imagination of these people. And ,trust me, pre-Christians are experts when it comes to persecution.
Hillary wants VP spot
http://firedoglake.com/2008/06/03/hillary-wants-the-vp-slot/
Hagee at Aipac conference last year
fiery speech. Warning Iran
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDRxmqOn7x4
Man, the geezer's face looks downright deformed in that picture.
milquetoast @ 3:
and hillary?
seems that she voted, like mccain, for the iraq war, and for the iranian rev guard vote too....
and, watch jumping on obama and mccain pastors, hillary's religious history is something she does NOT want to be discussed.
*cough* The Family *cough*
(i am not a diehard obama supporter, more of a begrudging one, but i couldn't sit by and not comment)
dashriprock @ 1:
Hagee!
It is usually a mistake Samson@7 to swallow the bait of a flame war. I've done it enough times myself to know. Best to ignore those types of one sided comments.
personally, and call me crazy, i think the different levels of coverage between the omnicoverage of pastor wright versus the scant coverage of pastor hagee is routed in subtle racism.
not to mention the lack of msm coverage of the other rightwing pseudo-christian nutjobs, robertson, haggard, parsley, falwell, etc.
falwell on 911:
"I really believe that the pagans, and the abortionists, and the feminists, and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People For the American Way, all of them who have tried to secularize America. I point the finger in their face and say 'you helped this happen.'"
I just heard that the Catholic priest, who did the ill timed and ill thought out comedy skit about Hillary, has been relieved of his duties by whoever is his boss, for at least the next two weeks. He seems to be in disfavor with his higher ups.
I guess Senator Obama wasn't the only one surprised by what he did. His own boss didn't expect that sort of show from him either. Kind of waters down the bs about Obama knowing the guy and supporting him while also knowing he gave shows like this.
As for McCain and his pastor fans, I think before this campaign is over those guys may be trying to separate themselves from McCain.
I wish these rich, fat, greedy thugs that call themselves ministers would do Christianity a favor and go to meet their god (Satan) early.
These people are the modern incarnation of Medieval Christians like Alexander IV of the Borgia family, they hold to a mockery of the true Faith and then claim that a faith started by a man who said "Love your enemies" and "pray in private" demands loud proclamations of faith in street corners braying about how crucial it is that the latest bomb dropped on an Iraqi city be blessed by Jebus.
I don't consider them Christian, and I find the fact that many people flock to their religious authoritarianism and consider them virtual gods dismaying. It is not Christianity these men peddle, it's something darker and less Christian even than the Witch Trials or the Inquisition or the Albigensian Crusade. Those at least were motivated with the desire to serve God, if in a way different than the now-muzzled Church is supposed to. What these guys peddle is nothing but evil itself, and a different sort of evil than Torquemada or Urban II.
McCain's support among the Hage'ian variety of right wingnuts was never compromised, no matter what. I suspect though, that you are right and that Obama's pastor problem has been greater for him than McCain. I'd like to take the less cynical route, and chalk it up to the fact that not a whole much is known about Obama to many Americans, hence the added scrutiny.
Obama needs Hillary! Just talk with some older women in their 70's and 80's. They want Hillary so bad before they die. Go talk to older women who are Hillary devotees and you will know why Obama has to offer her the spot.
These older women can really effect the race and other voters.
http://firedoglake.com/2008/06/03/hillary-wants-the-vp-slot/
The right wing christians have the same attitude as the muslim extremists, it's ok to lie cheat and steal from those that don't believe the things you do. Unbelievers are less than human in thier eyes.
Peter G @ 9:
my comment was (anything but) one sided.
Both sides suck.
Even the MSM plays up to and tries to keep favor with the crazier part of the Christian right. Remember when Falwell died? They treated his death with such reverence and totally ignored all the bizarre things he had said.
Man, this country is one f*cked up place.
Why would Obama even want to be president??? I give him a ton of credit. If I had his money, I'd be on a one-way ticket to Barcelona. Then I'd sit back and watch the good ship USA sink under the waves of its own stupidity.
milquetoast @ 3:
My suggestion: Open your eyes and mind and do some reading...It's a great way
to become informed and might add to your I.Q. also.
Did Hillary's youtube account get taken off line???????
McStain ought to do commercials for Depends much like Dole did for Viagra. (yeah,Bob, if I were married to that c-word, I'd have a job getting it up, too.)
The Depends commercial would endear him to the nursing home crowd who are running around with "woodies" and nothing to use it on.
That photo looks an advertising ad for a funeral home. Mr. McCain and Mr. Hagee will take care of all your needs in your time of sorrow.
The Truth Hurts @ 18:
He said in his own words "what in the hell did I get myself into" his first day as a rookie senator.
"OK if Kane and Abel were brothers who was the first mother f’er..answer me that"
it is a myth that tells the story about human ignorance which few in the world have understood.
Buddha and the Hindus have rightly declared ignorance as the origin of suffering.
the origin of that ignorance that causes that suffering is: our unawareness or ignorance of our universal oneness.
ie all is oneness so for oneness to perceive itself as twoness or more this entity must me ignorant of its true reality
when we harm another we have harmed ourselves. how do we learn not to kill and harm others. karma not as punishment but as a perfecter of consciousness to perfect awareness.
to have a separate perceived identity one must be unaware of their true identity.
man's ignorance is the origin of his suffering but without that ignorance there is no you or me
don't expect anyone to understand what I just stated but hey who knows maybe one person did.
plant a seed grow a garden
Doggiebobo @ 19:
I think Obama is the least of the three evils running for president and I (still)think he is a poor choice.
(who violated our constitutional rights by voting for the patriot act)?...Obama!!! href="http://www.barackobama.com/factcheck/2008/01/05/fact_check_obamas_consistent_p_1.php">
milquetoast @ 16:
I'll give you credit for consistency then. You hate everyone regardless of race ,creed or politics.
Kathleen @ 14:
I don't think there are that many women of that age who are going to throw a hissy fit like Harriet Christian did. A lot of the screams we are hearing are from women who are pissed right now. I feel sure most of them will calm down and come to their senses before Nov.
pissed off patricia @ 11:
Father Michael Pfleger has never been much in favor with the Catholic hierarchy. He's been a very outspoken social activist for years and prefers poor, black neighborhood churches to gilded cathedrals. He's been involved with the civil rights movement since the 60s and marched with Dr. King. The good pro-life Catholics in my white, middle class neighborhood hate him because he acts "too black". It's no surprise to me that the archdiocese will want to come down on him with all the fury they couldn't muster for the pedophile priests.
L.A. Confidential @ 23:
That's what I would be asking myself. Same with John Kerry. His wife is worth a few billion, yet he stays here and takes a ton of shit from the GOP. They swift-boated him and destroyed his reputation. They totally mocked his military service.
If I'm John Kerry, I would have taken the first flight to Paris, London or Rome to get the hell away from this repressed, religious freak show of a country. His his wife's cash, they could have an amazing lifestyle.
There was only one Senator who voted against the original Patriot Act and that was Senator Russ Feingold.
the slow creep of christian-in-name-only religious cults is, mostly, below the radar of the msm (like most important things).
note:
hagee and GETV.
ever heard of? no, well check this out, fuck me, it is raking in the dough for this nutjob. allowing him to spread his hate, and get fat(ter) all the while.
And it is a message that has helped his nonprofit television arm, Global Evangelism Television, become a prosperous, global, moneymaking family enterprise that has netted millions year after year peddling prayer, inspirational books, tapes and the promise of prosperity.
Since Hagee and his wife, Diana Hagee, founded GETV 25 years ago, the organization has gone from a back-room operation broadcasting Sunday sermons to San Antonio area viewers to a 50,000-square-foot multimedia studio broadcasting to 127 television stations and 82 radio stations nationwide.
According to income tax statements that GETV filed with the Internal Revenue Service, the nonprofit organization drew $18.3 million in revenue in 2001, the most recent year the organization submitted a return to the IRS. That year, Hagee's total compensation package amounted to more than $1.25 million.
Like most nonprofit organizations, GETV is obligated to disclose its finances by making IRS income tax statements, called 990 forms, available to the public. In return for complying, it isn't required to pay income taxes on revenue, business and operation taxes and property taxes. It also receives a discount on bulk mailing.
And it is also able to sell products tax-free and at a 50 percent profit because selling religious books, tapes and albums fits within GETV's broadly stated mission, which is to "spread the gospel of Jesus Christ."
According to the 990 forms for GETV, the organization in 2001 netted $12.3 million from donations, $4.8 million in profit from the sales of books and tapes, and an additional $1.1 million from various other sources, including rental income.
As the nonprofit organization's president, Hagee drew $540,000 in compensation, as well as an additional $302,005 in compensation for his position as president of Cornerstone Church, according to GETV's tax statements.
He also received $411,561 in benefits from GETV, including contributions to a retirement package for highly paid executives the IRS calls a "rabbi trust," so named because the first beneficiary of such an irrevocable trust was a rabbi.
Gee, it's almost as if conservativve christians are as cavalier with their "faith" as those who pander to them, isn't it...
sorry, here is where i was grabbing that info from:
http://www.rickross.com/reference/tv_preachers/tv_preachers7.html
milquetoast @ 25:
I didn't like Bill Clinton when he was running his first term. He turned out to be pretty good when you consider how he turned around what Reagan and Bush Sr left us.
When Obama first came on this scene I thought here's a guy who has a chance. After he gets some more experience under his belt he might win in 2012.
The reason the DNC is shoeing Obama in is with Hillary their free ride on the coat tail$ of the Bush Machine would be over and they would be dealing with a President who doesn't need ten advisers hovering over her
to make decisions. These people want a young guy they can "influence". They won't be able to do that with Clinton.
Yellow Elephant Safari @ 28:
Thank you so much for that information. I couldn't help but think about and compare the church's reaction to the pedophile priests and the reaction to this.
pissed off patricia @ 27:
go out and talk with women that age. Find out why they have supported Hillary. I went to several of the Hillary events in mid- Ohio and talked with at least 50 women in that age bracket...they want Hillary so bad and I predict many will jump ship. Many feel Obama is a new comer (had nothing to do with race when I talked with these women) did not have much of a record and had not put in the time that Hillary had.
I heard many of them say 'where did this pretty man come from" I'm serious! These women were salt of the earth types who had worked hard all of their lives, they want to see a woman President before they die, and they want that woman to be Hillary. Unite the party offer the VP to Hillary. If she turns it down then she turns it down.
Do it for the Democrats.
pissed off patricia @ 30:
Feingold is an honorable Senator!
pissed off patricia @ 27:
go find out for yourself. Go talk to these women
Looking at that photo, I can't decide which is more yellow, McSame's necktie or his teeth.
Samson- @ 33:
An interesting link. I'm surprised he hasn't worked the tried and true income transfer method (invented by Billy Graham) of giving away "free" publications to donors which his church would purchase from his own publishing company. It's a real cash cow and perfectly legal.
pissed off patricia @ 35:
You're welcome. I've not had the pleasure of meeting Father Mike but I've heard him speak many times. There's a lot more to this man than the msm will let ever you hear.
dashriprock @ 1:
BTW, it is spelled CAIN not KANE.
Sort of puts McCain's last name in perspective, don't it...
Can we please get an atheist in there? America needs to reject all religions and other forms of parent or self inflicted mental illness.
All this media coverage of these pastors does show how religious belief engenders deeply held self deception and mean spiritedness in its followers.
It is really time to look long and hard at the harm caused to us all by tolerating such simple minded fools.
Peter G @ 40:
billy graham... oy....
there sure is a lot of money in snake oil, and with that buys more influence than my vote, your's, and, well, everyone else here posting today. weeee!!!!
The Truth Hurts @ 39:
By gosh, you're right. They seem to be color co-ordinated.
researcher @ 24:
I understand. We are all connected.
Kathleen @ 38:
And what of HRC's negatives? You're deluded if you think the the wingers don't love to hate Clintons - they'll be coming out in droves.
9 mins. ago...
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080603/ap_on_el_pr/primary_rdp
Yahoo says Obama won the nomination!
Kathleen @ 36:
"... they want to see a woman President before they die,..."
Putting Senator Clinton on the ticket as candidate for veep will not allow these women to "see a woman president before they die", unless something tragic should happen to Senator OBama.
Blue Lensman @ 47:
But they love Obama?
This pastor issue hightlights two fundamental facts:
1] Religion is a destructive force.
2] This race will all be about "race".
As far as Republicans (and older HRC voters) go, this country is not ready for a black president. Too bad for them.
Peter G @ 49:
Of course not. I simply raise the point that what is gained in retaining the militant faction of Hillary supporters may be more than offset by activating the right's Hillary Haters. Living in a reddest state, I talk to these people all of the time and it's just as real as the Hillary demographic that Kathleen is discussing.
McCain has a fine line to walk. He doesn't want to turn off the intelligent republicans (yeah yeah I know, but there might be a few) and he doesn't want to lose the religious right. The repubs who aren't in the religious right have seen what eight years of the religious right's influence has done to their party and they don't like it. So he has to walk like the tightrope walker at the circus. He must know when to lean a bit to the right but not so far as to make himself fall off and meanwhile balance it by leaning a bit to the left.
Don't forget that McCain once used a racial slur for Vietnamese. I'm sure if he was captured by black people he would not have used a similar slur.
Kathleen @ 14:
Do they want Hillary or a qualified woman? There are several women who could run and not turn the Hillary-hating independents off like she would. Gov Sebelius of Kansas, for example, a dignified lady who acts like one.
this is the same lunacy bush has espoused from the beginning of his
administration. it's fucking disfunctional..
he wins if he loses......he wins if he wins
the two-sided coin with one face.
Blue Lensman @ 51:
I think your analysis fails to take into account the large differences in the demographics of Clinton and Obama. Attributing the differences to a bunch of screaming old ladies is false. You've all probably heard this old joke before but what the hell: An old bull and a young bull are standing in their paddock. The young bull says: Hey, the farmer left the gate open to the cow pasture. Let's run down there and screw some of the cows. The old bull replies: no, let's walk down there and screw them all.
I think most thinking and rational Americans have become accustomed to the Right-wing phony men of God on the Republican side. Look how long Falwell was around and Robertson has been around and followed by the Hagee's, Parsley's and Haggard's. We expect no better from them - it's who they are and have been since Raygun came into office and gave them prominence.
And I think that is why Wright and now Pfleger have gotten so much media attention. Obama was supposed to be a reasonable kind of guy. A good Democrat that is a normal Christian man of faith. Then we get a good look at his pastor of 20 years who he said helped him find his faith and was his friend and he turns out to be a bigoted and hateful freak. We find that his congregation was very receptive to the hateful and bigoted performance by their guest Priest. What makes this church unlike any fundamentalist freak show in America? And now the Catholic Church is going to send this idiot away for two weeks for reflection. Hell, they should send him to some remote corner of the earth to serve the poor without the media and the TV cameras to reflect for the rest of his miserable life.
Bottom line is today Senator Clinton inserted herself into a story that is not her story. Senator Obama is going to be the democratic nominee and that is the headline. Senator Clinton is volunteering to be in the limelight even after it is no longer on her. She is pushing and shoving Senator Obama to the side to get one more moment of attention. In my own opinion this is rude and does not speak well for her. Unless a deal has already been struck between she and Senator Obama, she should face reality with the same grace we would expect from any candidate at this point.
Peter G @ 56:
That makes sense but I'm an optimist and am assuming that most voting dems will fall in line behind BO or whomever.
researcher @ 24:
Ehh...kinda sorta. Gotta disagree with you on "ignorance", though. That Fruit of the Tree of Knowledge, mentioned in Genesis, is Agriculture. That part about the wicked farmer (Agriculturist) Cain slaying the shepherd (Pastoralist) Abel is part history and part Animism. And if you keep reading the Bible, you'll notice how shepherds are messianic figures.
Before I start to ramble, just read this book.
Attention religious conservatives; your philosophy and beliefs are quantifiable bunk.
PRAY TO THE FLYING SPAGHETTI MONSTER! ON YOUR KNEES, BEFORE YOU ARE SMOTED!
ckerst @ 15:
No, they're worse. They lie, cheat and steal from those who do believe in the type of Christianity they are peddling. They lure them in, make them feel good with their twist on the Scriptures, then fleece the sheep when they have them in the fold. Not only do they take their money, they discourage any attempt for them to think for themselves on matters of religion or politics. The typical line here is "Not voting for the Christian candidate? Then you are in rebellion...." And they mean rebellion against God, not the church, and that is a scary thought for Christians.
This is the first general election since my small church was thrown out of a large affiliation of evangelical churches (long story). I've been talking with people who were sucked in by those guys since they were of voting age and now are amazed at what they have done. One guy said it was like he had been asleep and is now just waking up. In a sense he is. It has been a joy for me to talk to these people who, for the first time in their lives, want to be politically aware and informed. There is a huge split coming down in the evangelical world and we're only one of the firsts (again, long story). I think we're going to see a lot of new, thinking Christian voters in the coming years. The question is whether we will welcome them here on the left or drive them away because of Hagee and his minions. Thanks to them much of thinking Americans cringe when they hear someone declare themselves to be Christian; jumping to the conclusion they are mindless, holier-than-thou idiots.
All religionists are ignorant. That is, they ignore the description, explanation and predictive features of the standard model in all of the phsysical sciences, the standard model in the life sciences (a tad weaker) and the non-existent standard model in the social sciences. The rest is fiction.
The Truth Hurts @ 18:
That is the problem with politics in our country. Whoever runs is smeared so bad and made to look like the lowest thing on earth. A lot of great people don't run because they don't want to go through it. We should actually be thankful for all three still in the race. None of them are as bad as they are made out to be. We really need to remember who our real enemies are and they aren't our fellow americans. We all want a better country. We just have different views as to what that is.
"His rejection of Hagee’s support isn’t a betrayal of Hagee’s prophecy, but a tactical retreat in the face of the abortionists, school desegregationists. and gay-marriage supporters whose defeat his administration will hopefully bring about. And thus is a stronger hero born."
I hate that kind of "christian " logic..
His rejection of Hagee’s support isn’t a betrayal of Hagee’s prophecy, but a tactical retreat in the face of the abortionists, school desegregationists. and gay-marriage supporters whose defeat his administration will hopefully bring about.
Tactical retreat? Doesn't sound very republican to me.
1. Flying things bright and beautiful,
Vietnamese peoples great and small,
All things wise and wonderful,
McWarhero bombed them all.
2. Each little Naplam canister that opens,
Each little child that screams in terror,
He made them burning colours,
He fried their tiny souls.
All things bright ...
3. The rich man on his ranch,
The poor indian on the reservation,
God made them, high or lowly,
And McGreedy forced them off their lands.
All things bright ...
4. The purple headed mountains,
The NAFTA superhighway running by,
The sunset and the morning coughing,
Oh where are those outsourced jobs John?
All things bright ...
5. The biting cold wind in the winter,
The baking summer sun,
The ripe fruits of S&Ls & 401Ks
They took them every one:
All things bright ...
6. The tall grass in the graveyard,
The foreign fields where we die,
The 100 years of perpetual war,
And finally we go home 1500 a year.
All things bright ...
7. He gave us eyes to see them,
And lips that we might tell,
How terrible is John Almighty,
Who would make all things shitty.
All things bright ...
(Amen)
Aren't pastors where bovines take a dump?
Marshall stack?
Just shows how out of touch these guys are.
We all play 30-watt combos theses days.
I wonder if you haven't got this one wrong. Hagee is a Dominionist. They peddle "IN CASE OF RAPTURE THIS CAR WILL BE EMPTY" bumperstickers, then say and do everything they can to HURRY UP Armageddon according to John. (Pssssst, don't tell them that the prophet of Patmos was writing in isopsepia, a code language similar to Qabalah's "gematria," with number values equalling letters and vice versa, and that TO MEGA THERION, or the Great Beast of Revelations, had a numerical value of 666, but it so happens that this is also the number value of a CONTEMPORARY, Nero Caesar.) Disgraced congressman Tom Delay is a Dominionist. If you are hurrying up Armeggadon and the Rapture and you have McBush in the White House, I don't think it's a gay european Jew who'll turn out to be the Antichrist, I think it's McBush himself. But, then, I don't believe in any of that stuff.
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