The RNC looks to exploit Dem debates
By Steve Benen Wednesday Jun 04, 2008 7:30amThe RNC's new game plan to is straightforward enough: Republicans are ready to exploit intra-party criticisms among the Dems.
Hours before the polls closed Tuesday in the final two Democratic presidential primaries, the Republican National Committee began circulating a video of Hillary Clinton questioning Barack Obama’s qualifications to be commander-in-chief, and acknowledging John McCain has this important presidential credential.
“Senator McCain will bring a lifetime of experience to the campaign, I will bring a lifetime of experience and Senator Obama will bring a speech that he gave in 2002,” Clinton says in the one-minute video of CNN’s coverage of a news conference she held on March 8 – the day Obama won the Wyoming caucuses. “I think that is a significant difference. I think that since we now know Senator McCain will be the nominee for the Republican Party, national security will be front and center in this election. We all know that.
“And I think it is imperative that each of us be able to demonstrate we can cross the commander-in-chief threshold. And I believe I have done that. Certainly, Senator McCain has done that. And you will have to ask Senator Obama with respect to his candidacy.”
An RNC official told CNN that Republicans would use Clinton’s criticisms of Obama “repeatedly” throughout the general election campaign.
Now, with Clinton’s help, pushing back against the RNC’s efforts isn’t too difficult. For one thing, I think most Americans realize that intra-party, like-minded rivals sometimes get a little aggressive in the midst of a heated primary. When one Dem attacks another Dem, it’s be taken with a grain of salt.
For another, once Hillary Clinton steps up to start defending Obama and going after John McCain, the RNC’s project will certainly lose its salience. By Saturday, the RNC's latest push shouldn't matter, but it's nevertheless something to keep an eye on.
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Frist - and sic 'em, Hillary yes, immature, I know)
this whole issue goes to show just how LITTLE ammunition the RNC has for the battle to come. Look at their candidate!
When Hillary was saying those things I think we all could see this coming.
Well...I am pleasantly surprised Hillary has dropped out and endorsed Obama. I thought for sure she was gonna play dirty...mayhap I've judged her a wee bit harshly.
McCain and Hillary's type of experience are what lead us down the path we are on so I think Obama just needs to poit that out and ask people if they want to stay on this path or back up and get on the right path. Plus the military guys that tried to keep us off this path were all removed until yes men that did what Bush wanted were put in charge.
The Dems should use all the stuff Bush said about McCain from their primary fight.
we have all judged her harshly, BUT only because of things like this.
Considering the fact that the Republicans have NOTHING that they can offer in a positive light, this is to be expected.
Sounds like the story of the boy with his thumb in the dyke.
the munz @ 9:
I've done that once!
I'm sorry. That was immature and juvenile. but you can't throw something like that out there and not expect me to jump on it.
I have a masters in statistics, so I believe that (good) polling gives real info. But anecdotes are what feed my dreams. I've recently had 2 died-in-the-wool Republican friends tell me that they were planning to vote for Obama. These are thoughtful people, but I never dreamed they would even consider crossing over. I think this could be a landslide of Nixonian proportions for Obama; I remember as a kid being similarly stunned when my friends said they were going to vote for Nixon.
Thanks Hillary.
I have a suggestion for the Dems:
In response to the issue above, it might be effective to compile a collection of negative comments by Hannity, Joe The Scar, and that Fat-Headed-Druggie-Rush on how disappointed THEY were over McCain's nomination... and close the spot with ten or twelve examples of McSame-FLIP-FLOPPING on his "moderate" positions in the last couple of months... and his assertion that troop levels are now down below their PRE-SURGE LEVELS (which is a bold-faced lie.)
Actually, this is a decent attack tactic. Clinton DID say that McCain was better prepared to be commander-in-chief than Obama, which is what they're pointing out. It's a problem; she threw Obama under the bus to make herself look better, but her comment can't be twisted--it doesn't need to be. So, this is a legitimate issue. If McCain is better prepared to be commander-in-chief than Obama according to a prominent Democrat like Clinton, it's an issue.
Don't get me wrong, I'm voting Obama all the way, and I plan to get involved in his local campaign, but let's be honest and realistic, folks. This is a legitimate question/issue that Democrats will have to face. (And I think Obama is easily as prepared, if not infinitely more so, than Bush was in 2000...or even now. And I think McCain has lost whatever sanity and credibility he ever had. Still, those facts don't erase Clinton's comments.)
Thanks Hillary, could you give me a hand and twist that knife in my back just a little bit more?
--Democratic Party
But will she defend Obama?
She could ruin her chances at the 2012 election if she does...
Thanks loads, Hillary. You've obviously been studying at the feet of your guru Joe Lieberquisling.
If Obama is as smart as I think he is, he won't be able to find any positions for HRC anywhere in his administration(s).
What? Opposing parties going over things said during the primaries and trying to use inter-party criticism to their advantage? That's almost unprecedented. Thinking back i personally can only remember such a thing happening during *every single election cycle i have ever paid attention to*. Stunning.
Well....here's what the Republicans will run on....
1)Don't pay attention to that meddlesome/trite 9trillion dollar deficit....cause Dick Cheney says 'Ronald Reagan showed us deficits don't matter'....yep, tell that to the value of the dollar and the companies/banks, land, and resources that our country doesn't own anymore...
2)Iraq War is going well...'its like Manhattan' (Peter King - R-NY)
Yeah...100 years McBush & '40 more years' Bush...its a great idea to keep sinking your tax dollars, the US treasury, the future of the nation into the greedy hands of the multinational corporations that are war profiteering...an Occupation of Iraq is a swell idea...just ask the British!
3) Gays, atheists, 'brown menace' are all keeping you and the economy down...
Yes, its the fault of same sex couples, rationalists without spirituality, and non-white/non right wingnut christians that you're losing your house, the dollar is dropping to the Peso, your job is in another country thanks to trade policies & you're up against slave labor wages, and that the 'terrorists' hate all of the above and freedom...it has nothing to do with Imperialism & Oil wars and the geopolitical energy endgame that con-servatives & neo-cons cling to like a bee to honey...
4) Be scared, be very scared of everything....the unknown is your enemy...change is bad.
Basically what William F. Buckley started 'modern' con-servatism on and continued to base it on...racism, hatred of change, and fear of the unknown.
5) John McCain has experience, and Obama doesn't...
What good is experience if you haven't learned anything from it???? Continuation of Bush policies is suicide for Democracy, its that simple...
pissed off patricia @ 3:
Absolutely. There is no 11th commandment where the Clintons are concerned.
Does anyone really believe her malarkey about this weekends coming smoozefest.
Hillary doesn't listen to anyone but Hillary.
Time will tell, but I'm pretty sure the Dems will snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. I cannot imagine our country with "Insane McCain" at the helm, but hang on to your hats, it's going to be a bumpy ride - unbelievably so.
Pinkyleftbrain @ 16:
Sounds as though almost all of her Congressional supporters came down on her hard yesterday. My guess: she ran the calculus on the odds of successfully pressing for the nomination versus the consequences of returning to a Senate full of pissed-off colleagues. I think she calculated that her only chance at future political power begins with being a decent, (if not fully enthusiastic) foot soldier for the party and Obama. She'll do what's necessary to save her hide.
Well....here's what the Republicans will run on....
1)Don't pay attention to that meddlesome/trite 9trillion dollar deficit....cause Dick Cheney says 'Ronald Reagan showed us deficits don't matter'....yep, tell that to the value of the dollar and the companies/banks, land, and resources that our country doesn't own anymore...
2)Iraq War is going well...'its like Manhattan' (Peter King - R-NY)
Yeah...100 years McBush & '40 more years' Bush...its a great idea to keep sinking your tax dollars, the US treasury, the future of the nation into the greedy hands of the multinational corporations that are war profiteering...an Occupation of Iraq is a swell idea...just ask the British!
3) Gays, atheists, 'brown menace' are all keeping you and the economy down...
Yes, its the fault of same sex couples, rationalists without spirituality, and non-white/non right wingnut christians that you're losing your house, the dollar is dropping to the Peso, your job is in another country thanks to trade policies & you're up against slave labor wages, and that the 'terrorists' hate all of the above and freedom...it has nothing to do with Imperialism & Oil wars and the geopolitical energy endgame that con-servatives & neo-cons cling to like a be
Paul @ 17:
Actually, I think it would be pretty ironic if she were appointed Attorney General - or Special Prosecutor.
I’d like to quote this from Mark Kleiman’s blog:
Makes sense to me.
bring.it.on.
while annoying, the clinton comments re mccain's vast experience will not rebound in his favor -- despite the rnc's desperate efforts to exploit them.
Hey, thanks RNC. What a great idea! There is nothing resembling party disunity among Dems like there is within the GOP. The best you can come up with is the lowest common denominator in your party? The guy who flip-flops so much he makes Kerry look like a testament to stability?
Damn, let's get down on this meme! Time for Republican Rehab indeed!
Matt C @ 6:
Except that his wife was crazy and that he fathered a black baby out of wedlock...
Otherwise, if this is all they have, they can say goodbye to their 100 year Republican majority.
The Republicants are so addle-minded that they have to choose some hackneyed tripe from a candidate who lost?
She does not belong on the ticket. Period. She's already undermined Obama, her presence on the ticket would only feed the frenzy about her coercing herself onto the ticket. She would be an albatross throughout the summer and really screw up the general election.
The "white vote" that she got was partially comprised of Republicans masquerading as Democrats, and those votes are going to McCain in the general election. We knew that that was going to happen. Hillary's "base" needs to make decision, are they with the Democratic Party on the issues that matter to them, regardless of their feelings on whether or not Hillary was "destined" for this candidacy, or are they so caught up in THEIR own form of reverse mysognyny that they're willing to sink the party.
The GOP fractured the Democratic Party back in 1980, and they did it by running on "family values" and "traditional" values when what they were really doing was running on racism and sexism.
Barack is right. We are all either going to pocket our pride and our bigotries and stand with one another based on our common interests, or we can all stew in our own self centered juices.
It's time to grow up and get on with it. Our children are watching.
The defense to this is to simply ask "What does it have to say about the star power of your own guys when you have to use the face of opposing team 2nd stringer for recognition and respect?" Well just word it better and let Hillary say it in a mocking tone and it will be effective.
And please don't use the same tactic against them because the hannity, rush, huckabee, and other clowns aren't that popular outside of the 28% universe or among the moderates. Showing them ripping McCain might might make him look better to the voters who matter.
Here's the problem as I see it. It's one thing to poke sticks at your opponent during the primary race, but to compliment the nominee of the other party above your own party opponent is dangerous. I'm sure the republicans have the tape of Bill saying both Hillary and McCain love their country and are true patriots. No where did he mention Obama.
It's just unfortunate that any of this stuff was said.
The view of U.S. electing Obama as seen from other Nations:
Argentina
Honduras
Brazil
Germany - Good article
From what I can observe by talking with people traveling the world, Almost EVERY Country wants OBAMA, but mostly the want to rid of GWB. He (bush) has brought the hatred of the U.S. America to the most in history.
Also, it's interesting to note, almost every person (of other than U.S.citizens) expects the U.S. to have a major attack on North America before the election. Of those thinking that (almost 100%) is the suspicion of a False Flag attack.
I find this very interesting.
deezus @ 10:
terribly immature!!! I'm shocked...SHOCKED I SAY!!! And it was a finger.
You can almost smell the whiff of desperation in the air every time a GOP spokesperson leaks something the the MSM.
I am stunned that after all the crap the Democratic Party put up with within its own ranks over the past few months that we have ended up where we need to be: with the opportunity to actually do as Obama has suggested and that is to establish the base for a "new" Democratic Party and a real renewal of an enthusiastic, broadly shared common effort to make this nation great again. With his nomination, the strength now rests with the armies of people from all walks of life, all religions, all races, all income groups who have embraced the radical idea of "we" again. We can tell the armies of DC-based political consultants and media hacks to take a long vacation while we bond together to resurrect America from the ashes the neo-con tyrants have left for us.
McCain and his lobbyist cronies want to debate our future with Barack? Beautiful!!
MsJoanne @ 25:
Makes sense to me too. But unfortunately, some people love to hate her. Buy I think she's used to it. The repugs have been doing it to her for a couple of decades now.
I had a problem with the link above in the article. You can see the GOP ad using Hillary at this link at the McClatchy news site. Unfortunately, Hillary's life time of experience didn't teach her how to foresee that if she lost, the Republicans would pounce on your words to defeat Obama. That or she decided it would be her or no one from the Democratic Party that would be president.
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/homepage/story/39811.html
Does the RNC REALLY want to open that door?
I seem to recall McCain's opponents were merciless in criticizing him, and many MANY pundits saying that'd endorse Hillary over McCain.
The fact we haven't seen such ads from the DNC already bothers me though. The RNC was ready with their ad the say Obama declared victory. :(
BTW, what in the world made HRC ever think she was qualified to be CIC? An insatiable lust and ambition for power? Not good enough. That comment about a 3AM phone call was short-sighted as hell, being that the obvious comeback is that Obama, unlike Hillary, woud never have the need to track down and assemble a focus group and pollsters in the dead of the night in order for to facilitate a lenthy process of triangulating his way to appropriate response. And unlike McCain, Obama isn't off the deep end crazy.
I only see McCain having a chance in this election if he takes up Bobby Jindal as his VP otherwise, the Dems will be winning by a landslide. People are sick of this fear mongering type of politics and practicing it will only hurt McCain and given that is his only card to play while he sucks at economics, is OLD, I wouldn't want to have a beer with him etc... Obama has the upperhand from the get go, and now with Hillary's support... like I said, landslide.
Oh Please! Remember the uproar when McCain was kinged the nominee? You had Limpballs, Santorum and the other right-wing nut-jobs screaming bloody murder and vowing to sit home in 2008. MSM and big business will do ANYTHING to make Dems look bad. The Hillary supporters who vow to vote for McCain? Go ahead, subject my children and grandchildren to ANOTHER four years of Bush and Co's policies. You only have yourselves to blame.
Notice how the Kennedy's suddenly burst back into the spotlight with Obama's presumptive victory.
Next thing he'll announce Arnold as his VP pick.
LOL battle of the "Dynasties"
Well let's be clear here though, HRC's claims about Obama's readiness or lack there of were raised as an issue by her campaign in the primary. Let me think.....how did going down that road work for her...
I suspect the R's will recycle a bunch of the Clinton campaign's attacks but those attacks simply did not work.
That dog simply won't hunt.
Liberal AND Proud @ 20:
How can she justify providing McShit talking points? Her stupid race igniting MLK comments and her unforgivably traitorous campaigning for McFuck up ended my respect for her. But she still should be considered for VP.....for McWar.
republicans are trying to stir things up in the hopes dems are dumb enough to put clinton on the ticket. ain't gonna happen.
for one, bill won't release the library records.
for two, hillary just ran the slimiest campaign in democratic party history.
for three, hillary's a drama queen who chews up more scenery than ms. pac-man, and if you've ever played the game you know there's know control to get ms. pac-man to stop running around and gobbling everything.
raincntry @ 44:
Rich and Bitter Lib's. Kennedy, Pelosi, Clyburn, Kerry, etc.
did whatever it took to stop Hillary. Obama is their man.
They'll get the free ride on Taxes which otherwise would have ended with Hillary in.
Seems the high up dems had some sort of intervention with Hillary yesterday. Hopefully all the ugliness will soon go away and we can all work toward the same goal. The bottom line is making sure Senator Obama is in the white house this time next year.
If the RNC wanted McCain they could've had him in 2000 before he sold out to the ulta right fascists.
*no control
bullfrog @ 46:
Interesting analogy there. Are you that guy from "Frogger"?
Off topic. 'Toll exec warns housing industry in a 'depression'. Let the good times roll!
P.D. @ 51:
Don't worry Obama will make us feel good about it.
Always remember these two things: (1) Half the population has no idea who the current President is and (2) The average American has the attention span of a gnat.
Obama will wipe the toilet floor with McCain in the debates but what wins and loses elections are the attack ads and just the attack ads. Collect everything you have (thanks McCain for the material) and focus only on producing attack ads and a new dawn WILL dawn on America.
L.A. Confidential @ 47:
Aahahahahahahaha!!! Scraping the bottom to find anything anti-Obama...So sad. You do seem to be an authority on bitterness though.
♠Bangkok-Bob♠ @ 33:
Mornin Bob!
Those articles are very encouraging...But here's one American that wouldn't be surprised if a False Flag attack happen just before the election. How else can they create a truly fascist state?
Great, the ole two crabs in a bucket approach. Glad to know they are focusing on how they can better our nation.
McSame… stagnance you can believe in
The ugly crap hasn't even started yet. Just give them another month or so. This is nothing.
Left&Left @ 54:
"to announce that there must be no criticism of Obama, or that we are to stand by the President right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile but it is morally treasonable to the American public"
Next you'll be whining over this concept.
Great mudshark, I don't think I can handle anymore election crap. The war in Iraq? Barely a mention. Afghanistan? What's that? Christ, I'm ready to drink Drain-O.
Nevermind that. Just put me on the ticket!
Wow, these guys really don't have anything left. Now they have to steal talking points of dem's against the dem's. Pretty sad state of affairs these guys are in. It don't work, they are pretty weak arguments
They can do whatever they want. Doesn't change the fact that in a time of unpopular war and recession, they are running a senile war monger who doesn't understand the economy.
♠Bangkok-Bob♠ @ 33:
Not only that Bob, but the other problem is the resentment of American's being a bunch brainwashed SHEEP who allowed this crap go on for 8 years.
Personally, I've had it with the Dem and the Con party. I see no difference anymore.
They're all con artists.
P.D. @ 59:
Stay Away From the Draino.
Yeah, I know. This primary has taken it's toll on many of us. Now I know what PEF means.(Primary Election Fatigue)
The president's first duty is to uphold the Constitution. How about mentioning that. Commander-in-chief is a "side duty" in times of need. As the current two wars were started capriciously, they made it front and centre, but it is not the first duty of the president. This should be used to attack McGrandpa and the GOP.
mudshark hussein @ 64:
Imagine both Clinton and Obama, talk about fatiqued, pandering to all those wishy-washy no-brain voters, for 18 months. I'd have drunk "teh Drano" 15 months ago (if I were them.)
Paula @ 62:
Yes, there is that, too.
There is a pattern that occurs every morning when a Obama related subject gets posted. Angry bitterly defeated losers like LAC, Tyree, Bluesage, Dennis, come here relentlessly bashing Obama(mostly with lies, innuendo and deceit). When Obama supporters fight back we hear B.S. like "That's why I'm voting for McClain" or "You Obama kool-aid drinkers show us no respect". This happens virtually every day.
L.A. Confidential @ 63:
Yes LAC, they are, but one party has clearly proven to be the more evil of the two, by far. At least to me they have.
L.A. Confidential @ 58:
Does(did) that apply to Hillary too...hypocrite?
Its funny. I blog on another site that is frequented mostly by wingnuts. Nothing they say about Hillary is worse than what the "liberal" bloggers here say. You guys are in lock-step with the wingnuts when it comes to Hillary.
But I suppose the Republicans wouldnt have used anything Obama said about Hillary if the situation were reversed. Wait...yes, they would. But that would be ok. Obama said it.
Cult of personallity. You Obama freaks remind me of the Bush whackos on the religious right. Ordained by God and all that.
liberalHUSSEINmoderation @ 69:
I agree. Still, Obama supporters here act like I am some kind of Luddite for DARING to look beyond the media produced "image".
Well thats to bad I was just as critical of Clinton during the 90's.
L.A. Confidential @ 43:
You ain't seen nothing yet.
I predict that Teddy Kennedy has one last great speech to give, and he is going to give it on the Senate floor and he is going to let EVERYONE have it. The sellouts in the Democratic Party that have appeased the Republicans on social issues and undermined their own Party in the process. The President for this IDIOTIC war. The GOP for masquerading around as populists while only serving the interests of the elites. Corporations for being treasonous and traitorous bastards for their addiction to labor arbitrage, the destruction of good jobs for the middle class, the destruction of workers rights. Oh...he's gonna let EVERYONE have it, and I'm going to enjoy every minute of it.
L.A. Confidential @ 72:
To thine own self be true, LAC. And you have been.
Liberal AND Proud @ 73:
I strongly doubt that Arnold will be chosen as VP. The 'Governator' is damaged goods, with his bad decisions, love of Bushy the chimp, and his being a son of a Nazi and all.
I also predict that Kennedy will bring the verbal hammer down on the democrats for being such weak sellouts. I especially hope he goes after Nancy Pelosi.
L.A. Confidential @ 72:
I don't think I have LAC...I've disagreed with ya on some points...but, HEY?! What's wrong with Luddites exactly? JK
He's not perfect...but I believe he's gonna do good for this nation, and the world...not that Hillary wouldn't have, I just think that the country is tired of the same ol' politics. Though, I would have voted for her had she gotten the nomination. No problem.
I think that this country is on the verge of something good...no...something FUCKING GREAT! I'm really glad to be alive at this point in history!
"Corporations for being treasonous and traitorous bastards for their addiction to labor arbitrage, the destruction of good jobs for the middle class, the destruction of workers rights. "
Good God. Get an EDUCATION. Stop whining about this stuff and learn to COMPETE. This has always been America's strength.
If you want to be pissed at someone about this, be pissed that the government hasnt pushed education harder (and pissed at people for not voting for education spending) and pissed that the government hasnt instituted a retraining program for people that lose their jobs to offshoring.
It isnt going away, whoever you elect. Silver lining for you though. If China and India keep putting out college graduates at a rate of 3 to every 1 of ours, those manufacturing jobs will come back. The fact that all the good jobs will be in those countries instead of the USA might be an issue though...just a thought.
linda @ 26:
mccain’s vast experience = crashing airplanes on foreign soil.
Strong argument: she was for McCain but now she's against him.
JW @ 71:
We do? If we remind you of them perhaps you should go back and refresh your memory regarding their level of screaming, profanity, bigotry, sexism, and basic cluelessness. Besides, the big difference if that we fell empowered by ourselves, by big ideas, and, yes, by "hope" that we can all move together as Americans to a renewed sense of our collective strength, wisdom and compassion.
JW @ 79:
I'm not going to get into this with you.
Compete? There is a difference between competing and having your own companies sell you out.
There is plenty to read on this topic. Books written by REAL economists and scholars. Real economic theories, proven factual by the test of time.
We've run our economy based on an economic theory written on the back of a napkin and that has long been proven to have been WRONG.
liberalHUSSEINmoderation @ 80:
I second that. Using these forums for playground taunting really is not helpful. The issues ahead are way too important and there are plenty of other blogs to strut on if you must.
seazen @ 84:
True, you don't have the level of bigorty, and sexism. Basic cluelessnes though, youre keeping up nicely when it comes to your opinions about Hillary. Ive never seen so many people spouting media hyped BS in my life. They say Hillary is bad, you regurgitate, regardless of the facts. Thats pretty much par for the course when it comes to the rabid wingnut right, and probably NOT something you want to emulate.
As an example, how many of you feel Hillary's continued run was really hurting the Dems chances in the GE? Anyone who thinks that bother to keep track of the polling? Na, that would require THOUGHT. If you HAD bothered to keep track of the polling, you would have seen that the head to heads of Hillary or Obama vs McSame werent changing, IE no damage was being done. Much easier to let Tweety tell you what to think though.
As for the hope and big ideas stuff, good for you! Im with you on that one. And its the basic reason I think rabid lefties are far better than rabid righties. Youre both cracked with the emotion based ideology where politics is concerned, but at least the left doesnt want to tell everyone how to live, and you have the best wishes for the society as a whole as your main motivation. The policies may be totally wrong, but in contrast to wingnuts you are on far superior ethical grounds.
If this is the republican strategy, touting experience and unity, then they would have already lost.
They still didn't get the message, the US of A wants CHANGE and diversity.
Experience is what brought us Iraq in the first place.
Unity is what brought us fascist, police-state, united in the fear of terrorism in the first place.
Hillary was entitled to express her opinion, but the primary voters have spoken.
And for what it's worth, everybody on earth has "a lifetime of experience."
I hope you're not actually expecting Hillary Clinton to make a serious and sustained attempt to neuter her own past criticisms of Obama now.
The DLC wants the party to lose this election, because we don't have a DLC candidate. Her criticisms were *meant* to weaken Obama in the general election. That's what her whole candidacy has been about, ever since basic arithmetic showed that she'd lost the primary.
Pinkyleftbrain @ 16:
If she doesn't buck up and do the party loyalty thing she's toast. Both Hillary & Bill know that and will lick their wounds in private and spout "We LUV Obama in public."
On the other hand, Obama would be wise to not present his unprotected back to either of them. Nasty pair those two.
JW @ 88:
Thanks for granting us some benefit on the basis of ethical grounds, but I don't yet understand your argument about "cracked with emotion" or why in the world you think we are somehow influenced by Tweety or any other talking head or why you believe we are capable of drawing our own rational conclusions after reading the polls, etc. as you indicate that you do??
seazen @ 95:
I was clearly refering to those bashing Clinton in my first post. Lets stay on track here. As examples, read posts #93 and #94. Those are the people Im speaking of. As bad as wingnuts.
CatAtomic @ 93:
You are spot on in your assessment. This has never been simply about the election. There is a power struggle going on in the Democratic Party. Bill Clinton won the White House and essentially took control of the democratic party by molding the Party into GOP lite and coopting many of the Republican positions, particularly on the issue of welfare. That has never sat well with the more left wing members of the Party.
That division is clearly seen in this primary. However, that fracture has been exacerbated by the demographics of the party...particularly race and gender.
That is a VERY brief assessment, but there is plenty out on the web to read on this subject.
JW
OK - I get your point; but - there is some reality to the premise that Hillary's adoption of the "throw the kitchen sink" at Obama was pretty destructive and that she and Bill got a tad self-centered over the course of the campaign. She remains an extraordinary woman and public servant and certainly resonated with a huge segment of the population but has not always "appeared" to have the best interests of the Party in mind over the past several weeks. IMHO she was sandbagged by the same crew of maniacal "political consultants" that have been drawing Democratic candidates down losing paths for the past decade. And as an old fan of Bill's, I found his periodic hissy fits unhelpful either to her or to the Party.
Peace
This, unfortunately, is why Hillary cannot possibly play a significant role (certainly not vice-president!) in the Obama administration. She went for broke when she crossed the line of portraying the Republican candidate as superior to a Democrat, any Democrat. Now she will pay the price by being frozen out of power. Too bad, but she made her own bed here.
You want to write off Hillary's earth-scorching techniques now that we are all sniffing Unityville on the left, but I don't think you can do so that easily. She fucked up, we all knew it when she did it, we claimed she was helping the GOP and the tactic lost her many supporters. Now her selfish deed bears fruit. Now she will look silly and scattered and hypocritical and STILL cannot take back what she said. Fool. Selfish fool.
JW @ 88:
Pretty simplistic way to see things, oh snarky friend. Because what we are saying is her tactics are hurting Obama NOW. And you hope to refute this by going back to polls in the past? Very weird logic.
seazen @ 98:
Eh, that 'throw the kitchen sink at Obama' stuff is what Im talking about. You got that from the media, because they needed some sensationalism to sell their dreck. But if you go back and take a look at this campaign between Obama and Hillary, you find two things;
A) It was VERY civil in comparison to...well, pretty much every political contest Ive ever seen. Hardly fits the definition of "throw everything including the kitchen sink" kind of thing.
B) who was accused of going Rovian by the media? Hillary. But did anyone bother to think about that? Na. No one even bothered to think about what Rovian IS. The 3 am add? No. Thats Eisenhowerian. And it was about a valid issue. Yes, scare tactics, but not Rovian. Rovian is making unsubstantiated attacks on character. "Al Gore said he invented the internet" "McCain has an illigitimate black child" and "John Kerry lied about his war record". THAT is Rovian, and Hillary never went ANYWHERE NEAR that.
Obama...well, "What is she hididng by not releasing her tax froms?" That actually IS Rovian. Its not about any of the campaign issues, but rather an attack on her character. Its totally unsubstantiated, as she had 20 years worth of tax declaration in the public archives, and she did infact release her current taxes.
But no one ever took the time to THINK about that. Obama is some kind of wonderkid, and hillary is a self serving bitch.
This is why I say the people here bashing Hillary are as bad as wingnuts. They get their marching orders from the same media, and question them just as much (being not at all).
take care.
nezua @ 101:
No, I was saying that the argument she has been hurting the dems chances has been spewed by the media for months, and it has NEVER been backed up by the numbers.
As for now, its easy to CLAIM she is hurting his chances now. And since you dislike her, its also emotionally satisfying to you. But...you got NOTHING but an opinion here. Just as before, there are NO numbers showing this is true. Just a bunch of meida pundits implying it, and you...regurgitating it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QfODabimE8k&feature=related
dennis @ 105:
Or like the guy who promised God that he'd be faithful to his wife "for better, for worse, until death do us part", but then left her when she was disfigured in an auto accident so that he could marry younger, prettier, and richer.
JW @ 103:
Well thanks for letting my vomitus roil up inside your ear canals, I appreciate that.
So, you think the GOP is rolling out ads using HRC to insult and delegitimize Obama and they are doing it because it will help him? And you think that being able to use her words to echo GOP sentiment won't hurt him?
Then I also CLAIM that you are being shortsighted and foolish. And I don't really care if there are any stats out there to back that up, because it's self evident.
nezua @ 108:
1. No problem.
2. I think they would do the same if HRC was the one getting the nomination. Her tactics arent the issue. Basically, if your argument were correct, the only way for HRC to campaign would have been to agree with Obama on everything. Thats not how it works.
3. Wingnuts use that "self evident" crap when they have nothing to back up their arguments too.
The argument here is that HRC did something wrong in continuing her campaign, and the tactics she used.
There is no supporting evidence that she has done any harm to Obama's chances in the GE, period.
Her campaign tactics were about as benign as any I have ever seen.
Her campaign was legitimate, as shown by the number of votes she got, which are what, a few thousand less than Obamas? 49.99999% of the Democratic electorate wanted her to be the Nom. Thats some serious legitimacy.
JW @ 110:
She would have been legitimized by a VP spot, but how could anyone choose her and not "legitimize" these commercials?
The Obamabots still wont face the facts that Barack ISNT the nominee yet, and wont be until August if ever! Maybe the presumptive nominee but thats it. And McCain will destroy him easily as more and more of Obama's skeletons pour out of the closet. Maybe you idiots should have seen he was a criminal, racist, sexist, radical and marxist BEFORE you anointed him your messiah.
P.U.M.A.
POdVet @ 112:
OK VET,
How much change do you want to STFU!
POdVet @ 112:
So whom are YOU supporting, oh pissed-off one?
Nobody here is an "Obamabot." But I strongly suspect you might be a Bushbot.
"Marxist radical"? Oh, please. Spare us the hackneyed reich-wing epithets. Been listening to Limbaugh or Hannity?
POdVet @ 112:
Couple problems with that: 1) He's not my messiah; and 2) I like radicals and Marxists (although that's the right wing phrasing; we just call them progressives).
JW @ 102:
Obama...well, "What is she hididng by not releasing her tax froms?" That actually IS Rovian. Its not about any of the campaign issues, but rather an attack on her character. Its totally unsubstantiated, as she had 20 years worth of tax declaration in the public archives, and she did infact release her current taxes.
take care.
You are a shining example of the not-too-subtly brainwashed. Hillary held up the release of her tax forms; questioning this is not only legitimate, but to be expected. But Hillary saying that she is supported by 'middle-class, white middle-class voters' is race-baiting. The former is a reasonable statement, the latter, exploitation of people's fears/prejudices.
fiver @ 111:
The only people who will be swayed by those comercials are those that wouldnt vote Obama anyway, or HRC supporters who would vote McSame without her on the ticket.
Secondly, if she is on the ticket...that lack of experience issue goes right out the door.
Finally, tactics. Meet those comercials with "Senator McCain has tons of experience, but since hes pushing all of Bush's failed policies, apparently he doesnt LEARN from those experiences". Something to that affect. Hell, Obama has been running that message for his entire campaign; "We need change from the way Washington has been".
This is really simple stuff. If Obama can't negate that kind of attack, hes really going to be in trouble when McSame brings out his church membership.
Well, looks like somebody could use a cup of Decaf
JW @ 117:
Obama handled the church membership thing just fine, and to nearly universal praise. It didn't even really slow his defeat of the Clinton machine.
But dealing with your VP badmouthing you in an endless loop from the opposition is foolish and unnecessary. HRC's ridiculous claims to her own "experience" and her attacks on Obama for a lack of it, play right into McCain's hands - McCain actually does have a lot of experience.
But so does Bill Richardson.
The Republican Party has never had original thoughts other than lies and dirty tricks. I guess taking the world backwards in time is not something they can sell to the voters. All they want is the money the government collects for their own greedy purposes. Vote all of them out of office.
Diana @ 116:
You are a shining example of the not-too-subtly brainwashed. Hillary held up the release of her tax forms; questioning this is not only legitimate, but to be expected. But Hillary saying that she is supported by 'middle-class, white middle-class voters' is race-baiting. The former is a reasonable statement, the latter, exploitation of people's fears/prejudices.
You have no critical thinking skills. Again, it was a baseless attack on a non-issue (character issue). That is Rovian by definition. If you think it was legitimate...fine. Thats not a problem. The problem is that people without critical thinking skills like yourself just bought the media line that Clinton was going Rovian. If you analyzed her points, they were anything but.
Whether or not she "held up her tax returns" is not an argument I care about. A) Its not about policy, and has no effect on how she would have done her job as President (again, its a character issue, the favorite play ground of the wingnut right) and B) She already had 20 years of tax returns in the public archives. Clearly she didnt have much to hide.
As for Hillary "race bating", she basically said what was true. Thats it. The stats showed that the group supporting her was exactly who she said it was.
fiver @ 119:
Obama handled the church membership issue just fine because A) Hillary didnt exploit it at all (which she would have done if she was this self serving Rovian attack machine some of you think she is) and B) McSame hasnt exploited it YET.
As for dealing with your VP saying you lack experience, again, if youre the VP you just say, "Well, with me on the ticket, the experience issue is done".
And Im not sure why people would say get someone else on that ticket. Hillary pulled almost 50% of the vote in this primary. With 30% of her supporters saying they will vote McSame, thats a 15% total loss of the agregate democratic voters. That seems like a foolish thing to give McSame. Just put her on as VP, and all the people that voted in the Dem primaries, that huge record number of voters, is Obama/Clinton's. McSame takes a beating...and we dont have to deal with 4 more years.
MCain is taking a beating - period.
He can be destroyed on the economy and the War. With HRC on the ticket, McCain has a ready-made excuse: "Whatever she said."
JW @ 122:
And I thought you were one of the "non-brainwashed". My bad. You really seem anxious to simply attack anyone who is not pro-Hillary by declaring you are rational and they are not. Sorry, some of us believe your evidence is shaky and that, in fact, there is much more to be gained through a campaign that is free of Clinton baggage - whether that baggage is 100% deserved or not.
It is now appearing as if you are simply an angry member of the pro-Hillary crowd that cannot accept the Obama victory and move on - graciously. For me, and others, this "whining" has been going on far too long.
fiver @ 115:
Thanks for saying what not many other progressives can easily admit, fiver.
Now, if you can just get Barack to tell us how he really feels about radicals and Marxists, too.
seazen @ 124:
Well, you have a right to your opinion. Ill be voting Obama regardless, so your idea that Im some disgruntled Hillary supporter is kind of...well, wrong.
Im mostly pissed at the American public. I dont know what it takes before people stop just buying what the media sells them, but apparently its more than BSing us into a war on faulty evidence, pimping GW's propoganda for the last 8 years, and promoting the idea that presidents should be picked not on their policy merrits, but unvetted character assassination talking points. Many people are still buying that stuff, on both sides of the isle.
In other words, Im not pissed at anyone picking Obama over Hillary. Im pissed at these people who bought the media line that shes a bad person who hurt the party despite all rational evidence to the contrary. Its people like that who will be the cause of picking someone else for VP. That may work out fine, but again, giving away 15% of democratic primary voters to McSame isnt my idea of good policy. If we get McSame and its a win by say, 3%, you people who hate Hillary irrationally will be the cause. Nothing new there, the Democrats have been their own worst enemies since the last Clinton left the WH.
Left&Left @ 113:
ROFLMAO!!
I knoW
I know I shouldn't laugh...but THAT was funny!!
POdVet @ 112:
Thanks for dropping by to remind us why it is so important that Obama won the nomination and how satisfying it will be when "we" win the general election. Did you check the latest post here on C&L? Also reminds us why "we" need to keep the momentum going through the Fall.
Well yea... That's all they are good at.. Exploitation.... Honest governing or ligitimate stewardship of the nation... Ehh not so much... Actually, not even close...... Knowledge is power though... Awareness of what they are up to will allow everyone to see it for what it is... phony obstructionism and obsfication... And ignore it......or better yet, denigrate the repubs for playing that weakass shit yet again....
This country is so ready and in need of a new direction. A real direction based on something other than greed and propaganda. And that is what the dems present as opportunity now.. After the last 14 not 8 actually, that's just the reality.. The repubs finally got a shot at their 15 in 94 starting with Gingrichs gang and their contract on America... The perversion picked up significant steam when they stole 2000, and they have completely pissed their leadership opportunity away along with the nation with their focus and policy perspective based exclusively on themselves and a greedy rich minority of supporters.. Now, the latest campaign tagline 'the kind of change America deserves'... should be more appropriately regarded as 'the continued screwing America deserves'....
Because that is ALL the republicans actually want to promise or deliever... Knowledge is power though...Vote accordingly... Vote for a better future for America by sending every republican of this generation home... Kickem to the curb. They deserve it, they've earned it. Botton line? Regardless of who you back Obama or Clinton, the real mantra is; Either one, because what we need is ANYONE but a republican... THAT IS the real mantra, the real focus, the real mission......Like I said, vote accordingly...JD
Hey, Dennis, oh simplistic one:
I am a liberal, a Democrat, a progressive.
I am not a Marxist or a fascist or a communist.
Or, thank dog, a conservative.
What do you call yourself, other than pain in the ass?
The RNC looks to exploit Dem debates
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYb8Wm6-QfA
JW @ 127:
It has little to do with "media lines."
There are plenty of rational reasons to "hate" or "bash" Hillary. Your insinuation that the only reasons people disliked her candidacy were irrational and misogynistic is simply inaccurate. I know perpetual victimhood was the hallmark of the Clinton candidacy, but it didn't work; she lost... months ago.
I think what convinced Senator Clinton to throw in the towel was seeing that nowadays the president is expected to chest bump graduating academy cadets.
MDave @ 136:
Well Hillary has a couple of air bags
To minimize impact hazards.
Eric Cartman @ 128:
L&L...my friend...today, you are on fire!
fiver @ 135:
Oy. I wish some of you people would take a critical thinking class, and then a debate class. This is CLEARLY not what Im talking about. There are rational reasons to dislike Hillary. A couple that you sight I would agree with. I didnt particularly like the kyl-lieberman vote either. I really couldnt care less about the whole sniper fire thing, as its got nothing to do with her ability to do the job of president, but lots of people care about that.
However, what youve done here is REFRAME the entire debate. I was clarly talking about those who hate and bash Clinton because shes a "Self serving bitch" and would "do anything to get power" or "is willing to destroy the Democrat party's chances in the GE in her selfish persuit of the presidency". Get it? This is a different debate. People who dislike her for THESE reasons have "bought the media line".
Your reasons? Well we could debate the merit of those, but they are not 'buying the media line" and thus I wasnt talking about THOSE reasons. Take a debate class. This redirecting crap is why discussions go nowhere. Im talking about one thing, and you go and throw out points that completely change the nature of the discussion.
found on huffpo
Reasons why HRC should NOT be the Veep.
"sniper fire in Bosnia".
"John McCain and I have passed the commander in chief test"
"as far as I know he is not a Muslim"
"He would not be my Pastor"
"I'm ready on day one he isn't"
"Remember Bobby Kennedy was assassinated in June."
Richard Mellon Scaife
cozying up to FIXed news
She never congratulated Senator Obama on his wins, despite his publicly doing so when she won.
She voted to authorize Iraq war.
She voted to declare parts of the Iranian military a terrorist organisation.
She ridiculed Senator Obama for offering hope.
She is showing no class by not conceding.
She is attempting to force her way onto the ticket.
Bill's list of Presidential Library contributors
Bill's list of foundation contributors
Bill's list of speaking engagements.
Bill's ongoing list of marital indiscretions.
Bill's failure to realize that he has to behave as if he's on camera, all of the time.
JW @ 142:
I suppose your response is simply that you weren't talking about me, but you quickly devolved into a rather childish ad hominem attack. Just where do you think you're posting? The attacks on Hillary that I've read, and made, on C&L are overwhelmingly from the left. Some of which you agree with. Yet I need courses on critical thinking and basic debate? Your projection is unreal.
I made the mistake of addressing your points on the merits without realizing you had no intention of doing the same.
But count the days...
Your whining becomes less and less relevant by the hour. Right now, Hillary's staff has been released except for those charged with placing a heaping portion of crow on the Clinton dinner plate. Hillary dines on Friday in the hope she can recover some measure of respectability, maybe a token cabinet post, and hopefully some of Obama's spare change so she can pay her debts. Eat up!
liberalHUSSEINmoderation @ 141:
Being of the Witchy sort myself, I'd find that inadvisable.
the fact that clinton has moved her concession party to saturday shows me one thing...she has no interest in seeing obama win the election
of course her words will be used by the repugs...she knew that when she used them
eff her....
fiver @ 141:
Please cut and paste the "ad hominem attacks" from my post.
"I suppose your response is simply that you weren't talking about me,"
If you read my post, thats pretty obvious. As I said, YOUR reasons were not the ones I was talking about, and thus, I OBVIOUSLY wasnt talking about you. No "suppose" about it.
"I made the mistake of addressing your points on the merits without realizing you had no intention of doing the same. "
No, you didnt. I was talking about one set of people, and you basically said "Ihave good reasons for disliking Hillary, therefore your argument about those people is wrong even though their reasons for disliking Hillary are totally different than mine". YOUR reasons are not the ones the media has been spitting out (shes selfish, she doesnt care how much damage she does, etc.). People who believe the reasons the media is spitting out are the people I was talking about. Therefore...I wasnt talking about you or your reasons. But you responded with..your reasons. You didnt address my points AT ALL. DUH. This aint rocket science.
"Your whining becomes less and less relevant by the hour. Right now, Hillary’s staff has been released except for those charged with placing a heaping portion of crow on the Clinton dinner plate. Hillary dines on Friday in the hope she can recover some measure of respectability, maybe a token cabinet post, and hopefully some of Obama’s spare change so she can pay her debts. Eat up!"
And this is just stupid. Im fine with Obama being the nom. Im happy to vote for him. I think they should pick Hillary as vp, but Im gona vote for him regardless. Ive not ONCE said "BUT! SHe won the popular vote!" or "But shes the better candidate" or any of that crap. I havent whined ONCE about her not being the nom. THe only thing Ive complained about is people who hate her for the reasons the mass media spit out...and just so you dont get confused again...NO THAT IS NOT YOU.
Have a nice day.
JW @ 142:
Only because you insist:
You sure you wanted to emphasis these? That probably would not be advisable in either a debate or critical thinking course. But hey, you're the expert. Have a nice day.
[Deleted. Off topic. Really. Would you all starting acting like adults here and quit sniping at each other? I am beginning to lose my patience here and I'm getting ready to give all of you the time out you are earning with this 3 grade behavior-Sitemonitor]
liberalHUSSEINmoderation @ 136:
Nope, just the same rude sob he always is.
Come to think of it, when ever he's been challenged with a counter point. He always resorts to insults. I have yet to see him post a link proving anything.
fiver @ 134:
Only the last one can be considered ad hominem and only if you ignore the rest of the post. Wishing you would take a class is hardly an attack on your character. The only way ad hominem works is if I dont address your arguments directly. As I did that, these statements werent "Ad Hominem" any more than this one from you "That probably would not be advisable in either a debate or critical thinking course. But hey, you're the expert."
I suppose if you want to admit you just attacked me with ad hominem after criticizing me for use of the same, then Ill concede the point and we can start talking about hypocrisy.
One more reason that Billary should NOT become Vice President.
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