Time: Nearly 20% Of Soldiers In Iraq, Afghanistan On Anti-Depressants
By Logan Murphy Thursday Jun 05, 2008 8:45am
Time:
Seven months after Sergeant Christopher LeJeune started scouting Baghdad's dangerous roads — acting as bait to lure insurgents into the open so his Army unit could kill them — he found himself growing increasingly despondent. "We'd been doing some heavy missions, and things were starting to bother me," LeJeune says. His unit had been protecting Iraqi police stations targeted by rocket-propelled grenades, hunting down mortars hidden in dark Baghdad basements and cleaning up its own messes. He recalls the order his unit got after a nighttime firefight to roll back out and collect the enemy dead. When LeJeune and his buddies arrived, they discovered that some of the bodies were still alive. "You don't always know who the bad guys are," he says. "When you search someone's house, you have it built up in your mind that these guys are terrorists, but when you go in, there's little bitty tiny shoes and toys on the floor — things like that started affecting me a lot more than I thought they would."
While the headline-grabbing weapons in this war have been high-tech wonders, like unmanned drones that drop Hellfire missiles on the enemy below, troops like LeJeune are going into battle with a different kind of weapon, one so stealthy that few Americans even know of its deployment. For the first time in history, a sizable and growing number of U.S. combat troops are taking daily doses of antidepressants to calm nerves strained by repeated and lengthy tours in Iraq and Afghanistan. Read on...
With so many soldiers and marines being sent on multiple tours of duty in such hellish conditions, this comes as no surprise. Military suicide rates are at a twenty year high, and it's clear that we've only seen the beginning of what is shaping up to be another generation of veterans who will suffer a lifetime of mental and physical anguish, who are forced to beg their country for help. John McCain says he hates war, but his actions don't match his words. Vote Obama in November...
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They were talking about this on one of the cable news shows the other day and basically blew it off by saying "Well, we are a medicated society these days".
I can't remember what show it was because at that point I was so mad I clicked off the tv and created some new curse words.
Damn...that's fucking sad as hell right there....the whole Iraq thing is such a tragedy...I hope BushCo burns in fuckin hell!
I can't wait for these ladies and fellers to come home. What with all the great aftercare they're going to get from the VA I'm sure they won't have any problems at all...
And 20% seems low...
After 8 years of Bush, I need prozac.
We should all volunteer some time and money to veterans causes.
Cheney's one word, "So?" , gives a good indication about why our people are having problems. I don't buy the 20% number... too low.
liberalHUSSEINmoderation @ 4:
You know that if that's the number being reported in the MSM it's low. Anybody who votes for McBush is supporting this horrorshow for another 4 years.
THIS HAS GOT TO STOP!!!!
Obama certainly isn't perfect (I'm an old Kucinich, Edwards supporter) but the choice this Nov couldn't be more clear. We need to turn the corner and get this nation on a new course. We've run out of time, we don't have another 4 years.
Among side effects listed for selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors are: anxiety, insomnia (15-20 % more than with placebo), nausea, irritability, hostility, aggression, INCREASED SUICIDAL THINKING IN ADULTS UNDER 25, GI upsets, nightmares, dissociation, sexual dysfunction.
Just what you need in combat theatre, right? Although if you want Haditha-ready Marines, hey, cram a handful.
No connection here between the "stunning" number of Veterans committing and attempting suicide and the, ahem, randomized double-blind placebo-controlled "safe" anti-depressants....Nothing to see here, move along folks.
I remember reading way back after the initial invasion of Iraq, that one of the first targets taken out were counterfeit pharmaceutical drug operations.
Bleeeccckk!
Corporate Fascism, here at home and abroad.
In noting that rates of military suicide are at a twenty year high, Logan Murphy advises C & L readers to "vote Obama in November." Perhaps Mr. Murphy is not aware that Obama is calling for not an immediate but rather a phased withdrawal of U.S. forces from that hellhole in Iraq. Perhaps Mr. Murphy is not aware that the [alleged] anti-war candidate is proposing that close to 100,000 troops remain either in Iraq or in the region even after his phased withdrawal is finally completed. Not exactly the best way to support those troops, now is it? But it may be the best way to ensure that more of those poor bastards end up in VA hospitals across the country severely burned, blinded [if any of their eyes remain intact], brain damaged, paralyzed, missing a few arms and legs, and, as previously noted, suffering from the effects of PTSD.
One wonders how many BRING ALL THE TROOPS HOME NOW signs will be allowed to be seen at the Democratic convention this summer in Colorado. The safe bet would be between slim and none.
If you are watching the market today you are also depressed. Oil just jumped six bucks a barrel and according to one guy's take on it, it's because Israel said today it may have to strike Iran's nuke facilities.
If we as a nation are somehow denied the change we so desperately need...I will go apeshit!
pissed off patricia @ 11:
I think there are a lot of factors at play here patricia. No doubt the "speculation bubble" will mysteriously burst a month or so before the election and lower fuel prices dramatically. Just another of those mysterious "coinkidinks" that the rupuglicans are so notorious for. I'm not sure the powers-that-be will allow a strike against Iran at this time. Given the current world climate it would be a loser for them. Hopefully they'll chose to regroup betting that the Democrats will be out of power in 4 years given the tough times we're faced with and the probable displeasure that will generate among the 'Murican consumer class.
liberalHUSSEINmoderation @ 4:
My thoughts exactly. What percentage of the general populace is on them?
pissed off patricia @ 11:
Saw that too, POP
On top of that the unemployment rate is at its highest since 1986...
Another war is exactly what we need right now???
Not that it would ameliorate PTSD or other long term injuries, but for the short term, I can't help but think the lack of bars or "clubs" and access to alcohol and a therapeutic bender is part of this. The afghan situation seems like a slow-mo version of a WW2 bomber mission. Slowly moving thru enemy territory not knowing where or when the fighters are going to show up. When I make it back I wouldn't want a pill, I'd want a bottle.
"Support the troops" Any lobbyist for the pharmaceutical industry.
Rush "supports the troops" because he's hoping to score some pills.
pissed off patricia @ 11:
I heard 8 bucks on NPR this morning...And Israel can go piss up a rope!
and they dope our kids with toxins from brith
The Pale Scot @ 16:
Yeah, bottle and joint the size of my arm!
Can't help but think that the side effects of the medication is going to inhibit your ability to do your job - AND protect yourself, which may require lightning-quick reflexes. So soldiers' choices seem to be to medicate and risk your life by not being as quick on the trigger, OR don't medicate, and go crazy - but faster!
Thanks, George Bush! Thanks, Dick Cheney! Whatever horrors await you in Hell, just know you deserve even worse!
Great, considering the misdiagnosis of disease that warrants an SSRI, most will definitely be more agressive in battle because of incorrected brain chemistry. It's all good!
liberalHUSSEINmoderation @ 21:
that's better...
Chicken Hussein Little - NOT!! @ 13:
I fuckin hate the GOP!
Big deal! Those idiots make me depressed too! How a human being can get his brain to kill other people for a paycheck is beyond me!
I wonder what is wrong with the 80% of those nitwits that don't take anti depressants!
liberalHUSSEINmoderation @ 24:
dammitalltohell! Can't type today...
liberalHUSSEINmoderation @ 4:
20% of a "occupational cohort" is pretty substantial and I'd be willing to bet that the figure is underestimated.
liberalHUSSEINmoderation @ 24:
Why stop at one?
Yesterday, we learned the proof w and cheney lied into a needless war. They have video proof of torture and illegal spying on Americans.
They should ask Obama why his spineless party thinks they are above the law and has done nothing.
Are the spineless dems going to let w declare victory in this war crime with his secret deal with Iraq?
Are they going to cave on telcom immunity?
Are they going to allow the world court to hold them accountable for torture?
WTF are they doing?
johnnypunchclock @ 5:
To hell with veterans and their causes. They serve their military industrial complex masters.
If they choose to kill others for a paycheck, they should suffer the consequences to pay for their wrong doing.
Maybe put them in prison when they get back and try to rehabilitate them there.
getalife @ 30:
Why not ask the spineless repugnantcants?
Glad to see Crooks and Liars focused on our Vets again. This obsession with the election has turned into an obvious way to keep Americans distracted from the crimes of this administration including sending American men and women off to an immoral and unnecessary war. Vets should be provided with access to everything they need including counseling, counseling ,counseling and hopefully only turn to meds in the most extreme cases. It's often the case that meds are offered first and far more often.
It appears that Vets who spend time with other Vets (Iraq Vets Against the War )etc. find some of the support they need and deserve.
http://ivaw.org/
good the more the better
All because of the lying bastards in the White House getting us into this oil war.
Underground Pirate @ 31:
That's a damn shitty attitude ya got there Pirate.
Bitter Bud Hussein @ 29:
Oh trust Bud...I wouldn't stop at one...I just forgot to put the (A) in the first time...kinda hungover this AM...had a few cold ones with friends to celebrate Obamas nomination...so my spellage ain't on point right now.
liberalHUSSEINmoderation @ 37:
See what I mean? lol!
Underground Pirate @ 31:
Have you been paying any attention to where the majority of our "volunteer" enlisted military have come from? Are you aware that most of these kids have come from dead end environments? Are you condemning young people who opt for "serving" their country in return for educational opportunities that are totally out of their grasp otherwise? Don't even get me started on why people join the Guard or the Reserves. Most of those in the military today are there because of a need for financial, educational and/or medical benefits not available to them in civilian life.
Trust me, most members of the Guard and Reserves didn't sign up to "kill others for a paycheck", they signed up thinking they'd be helping in domestic emergencies, not getting shipped overseas to do their overlords' bidding.
Lighten up, get some facts and save your anger and outrage for those who truly deserve it.
PUSSY WHIPPED ANTI AMERICANS... how dare anyone say that our boys and girls can't take it.... F'EM, i say.... we could go another.....
Q: President Bush has talked about our staying in Iraq for 50 years — (cut off by McCain)
McCAIN: Make it a hundred.
Q: Is that … (cut off)
McCAIN: We’ve been in South Korea … we’ve been in Japan for 60 years. We’ve been in South Korea 50 years or so. That would be fine with me. As long as Americans …
Q: [tries to say something]
McCAIN: As long as Americans are not being injured or harmed or wounded or killed. That’s fine with me, I hope that would be fine with you, if we maintain a presence in a very volatile part of the world where Al Queada is training and equipping and recruiting and motivating people every single day.
JOHN "THE BUSH REPUBLICAN" MCCAIN..... HE KNOWS WE CAN TAKE IT... WE CAN TAKE IT STANDING ON OUR HEAD... WE CAN TAKE IT JUMPING ON OUR BED... WE CAN TAKE IT EATING SPAM... WE CAN TAKE IT SAM I AM
WE ALL LOVE A LITTLE BUSH @ 40:
I will not eat green eggs and ham!
slappy magoo @ 22:
Sure does. Especially pilots:
http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/01/02/mistaken.bombing/
But heck, whats a few dead Canadian soldiers?
Chicken Hussein Little - NOT!! @ 39:
Nice try, trying to talk some sense into pirate, but I have seen his posts before. Just another troll who comes and hits and runs.
Why don't we really support the troops...not the GOP version of "support" which means treat them like pieces of shit . Wearing a ribbon on the back of your minivan or wear a flagpin does not count. Let's start supporting the troops by giving Washington an enema in Nov.
Bush Lied, Soldiers Died. Bush Lied, Soldiers commit suicide. Bush Lied, Army ruined. Bush Lied, Economy tanked. Bush Lied, Jobs Lost. Bush Lied, Corporations Win. Bush Lied, America goes into a ditch.
McSame Lies.
Underground Pirate @ 31:
Troll much?
kit wilson @ 45:
Just another Bush failure only this time he ran the whole country into a the ground, not a company with a few investers.
StirFry @ 44:
Right on!! Time to clean house (and the senate) on both sides of the aisle. Open the windows, clean up the mess and get a breath of fresh air to rid our nation of the stench of corruption. I, for one, am not the least interested in being a vassal for our corporate aristocracy. Time to regain our status as citizens and rid ourselves of the "consumer" label that's been foisted on us.
Ron @ 47:
Jesus, that is on point. I knew that - somehow - but it never occured to me in quite those terms.
In the past the Saudi's bailed him out. Who will do it this time I wonder?
Big surprise, after Korea and Vietnam, that our brave young men and women would find themselves depending on drugs to cope with the hell into which they have been so pointlessly sent. Back then it was pot and smack, and it was derided by those in charge. Now those same leaders supply the drugs for them.
Shame on us all.
Ahhh, the military industrial complex and the medical industrial complex...working together! ...how special!
scratch my back...I'll scratch yours!
Ron @ 32:
The Republicans do not control the House. The Democrats do, which is the reason why they should be doing their job by carrying out Article II Section 4 of the U.S. Constitution, also known as the impeachment clause. As Getalife correctly noted, thee are a multitude of reasons why this administration should be impeached, yet neither the Democrats nor the [alleged] agent of hope and change are demanding that this be done. One wonders if Bush and/or Cheney would have to be caught in a closet with a ten year old boy or girl before Obama and Nancy Pelosi finally decide that impeachment will be on the table. Spineless is only the start as to what the Democrats should be labeled. Political expediency should also be added to that list.
Unless the MSM makes a big deal out of this right NOW, you can bet your ass that the percentage of medicated soldiers will skyrocket. Plenty of military brass will secretly conclude that drugging the trigger pullers will solve all of their problems.
Chicken Hussein Little - NOT!! @ 39:
O.K. let's blame their bad choices on someone else? Give me a break! We all make our own choices in life.
Perhaps, vets could spend the remainder of their lives apologizing to everyone for accepting money for killing.
They should go to young people and beg them not to join!
Vets are largely immune to the self analysis that might awaken them. They seem to enjoy recalling the good old
days of their service time when they felt fully alive all the time receiving pay for others suffering.
There is NOTHING honorable about military service!!! Soldiers do not bring peace. Soldiers bring human suffering!!!!!!!!!
Erroll @ 52:
You can't put all of the blame on the democrats. Have you seen any of the repugnantcants stand up for Article II Section 4? Kucinich and Wexler and several others have. The repugnantcants have one mission, to block anything the democrats try to get done.
liberalHUSSEINmoderation @ 2:
Exactly my thoughts... so damned sad and for no reason other than to make some elitist a$$holes even wealthier. I wonder where Bu$h plans on shoving all his money when he meets his maker... up his arse with his brain, I guess.
Lighten up????????
Get real. You have compassion for the perpetrators (soldiers), but none for the victims!
Why don't you move to Iraq and live with an Iraqi family and tell them to "lighten up".
Simon White-Thatch Potentloins @ 53:
Act of desperation that will almost certainly blow up on them. Medicated soldiers can almost be guaranteed to make mistakes leading to horrible consequences.
No doubt this is the most crucial election since WWII, if McBush prevails we will be ostracized by the rest of the world and our fall to banana republic is assured. My sweetheart of 26 years hates donating to political campaigns so you can imagine my surprise (and delight) when she told me where she wants the majority of our tax "incentive" rebate to go. Probably not what Bush had in mind.
Erroll @ 52:
Where is the justice?
Are we to let out out the murderers in prison too?
This is not a freaking blow job we are talking about, it is mass murder.
Erroll @ 52:
Obama and the new Democratic party will have spine. Obama should have a "chat" with that slag Pelosi and get her to do her job, and to start impeachment proceedings.
Chicken Hussein Little - NOT!! @ 48:
Excellent idea! Stop shopping at (and thereby supporting those) stores that are big conglomerates and corporations that don't care for or that aren't fair to their employees and customers, and who trash the environment; refuse to buy things not made in the U.S. of A. (really, how much do we truly need); you all know the drill. Actions speak louder than words and it's time to take action. Cleaning out the government is another must-do too. Get on it!!
Underground Pirate @ 54:
What are you nine years old? Do you even know any vets? Have you talked to anyone who has served and been in combat? Do you really have a clue as to why people join the military? What this country has done they have done it in your name, and what the hell have you done to change anything? To blame young men and women who wanted to serve their country and got screwed by the powers that be, while people like you sit on their asses and do nothing but bitch at them is pretty sad. I doubt you have ever said any of your lame shit to a vets face, you gutless troll.
Underground Pirate @ 54:
Yeah those folks who defeated the imperialistic designs of Hitler and Japan, brought nothing but human suffering. Either you are a sheltered, naive, stupid fool who can't tell the difference between self-defense and aggression or you are a self-absorbed blowhard. By the way, in my opinion WWII was the last legitimate use of force by the US so don't even try to suggest I'm supporting this or previous administrations use of the military for global domination.
Like I said earlier fool, save your outrage for the puppeteers, picking on those who are being manipulated may make you feel self-righteous but it does nothing to address the problem of poverty and dead end existences. Try to take your head out of your arse and look around at other people's realities.
anon @ 48:
Ron
You seem to be missing the point. Both Nancy Pelosi and the savior of the Democratic party, if not the nation, Barack Obama, have said that the idea of impeachment is moribund. Article II Section 4 of the Constitution does not say that Congress may impeach but that it SHALL impeach, i.e. that it has an obligation to bring charges against an administration when it is so warranted. If one acknowledges that this is one of the the most corrupt administrations in the history of this county, then it should also be acknowledged that impeachment is warranted against the Bush and Cheney gang. Yet the Democrats are terrified of acting, despite the overwhelming evidence that they have to make their case.
Perhaps this is one of the reasons that the networks and the Democrats and the Republicans will join together to make sure that a third party candidate is shut out of the summer debates, the way that Nader was in the summer of 2000. Apparently the last thing they want is for the major parties to be held accountable for their criminal and immoral actions in front of a nationwide television audience
Our soldier's would be better off on the drug the Vikings used right before battle:
Psilocybins.
I bet at least 20% if not more of ALL Americans are on that stuff. It is a plague for certain. With all participants being clinical trial lab rats for the most part. These pills often lead to suicide. You can take Pharmies that mind bend even if you are claiming 12 step sobriety. It is a joke. A sad joke.
Erroll @ 64:
That is the point Kucinich was making all winter, all the while being ignored by CorpMedia. He basicially said that Pelosi might as well as just torn those pages out of the Constitution.
Erroll @ 64:
I'm not missing your point at all. I think you are missing my point. The repugnantcants are part of the congress.
diamondmc @ 61:
I have known many combat vets.
I have said many things to their faces.
There are two categories.
1) The idiot.
The idiot didnt realize until after it was too late that they had made one major mistake. The act itself proved to them that they had been lied to their entire lives about war etc. They finish with their tours changed people. I had great parents and knew before the fact that war was dumb - they didnt. Blame their parents if you want - but dont argue that they didnt make a major major mistake. They really should have known better. And while I do see them in some small way as a victim - those that dont stop once they realize the harm they are doing are in fact victimizers in the most major way. All of this is back-highlighted by the real heros from our past. Those poor bastards - farmers, factory workers, cab drivers - who all had better things to do than BECOME (something they arent by nature) killers,but surrendered their peacable way of life to 'rescue' their nation in a time of dire need. Those people are deserving of notice. Kids earning college money in a time of peace - sorry - are not. Killing willfully for money in a time of peace is ... well ... just killing. That is wrong. I frankly dont give a damn whether they are wearing a costume while doing it or not.
2) The maniac
Their are people that just live for this garbage - murder and mayhem. They want to be in it up to their knees. They fancy themselves 'warriors'. These - in my opinion - are sick and dangerous people. There is nothing honorable to see here - my opinion.
The core issue is the very existence of a professional military. Is it more effective - sure. Is it a good idea in a democracy? Absolutely not.
If citizens will not voluteer to serve their country in a time of dire need, the nation probably shouldnt be save in the first place. If the nation is worth saving, citizens will answer.
Somehow, the power elite have lost faith in that compact.
Figures somehow, doesnt it.
53 Underground Pirate
You don't have much reading comprehension do you?
National Guardsmen generally help in the event of local emergencies like fires, floods, hurricanes and tornadoes.
boosh's use for them in Iraq is trying to do war on the cheap, and possibly to justify his own stint in the Air National Guard before he deserted.
Underground Pirate @ 56:
Yeah, I still can't get my go-to-church-three-times-a-week friend to explain how blowing up the Middle East is compassionate behavior for a Christian.
ysbaddaden @ 69:
The guard are used that way, but they arent trained in flood defense. They are trained as soldiers.
Please - honestly - that is a tired old and off point argument.
They are soldiers. They know that. They chose that.
You dont shoot floods or tornadoes. And you sure dont need F-16's to fight any natural disaster. (Yes there are air guard units)
P.S.
Why are my posts being blocked?
this is a huge problem.
why isn't bush in jail yet?
Well, good for them they have a side job besides killing. I guess that as they are killing families in other
countries and "helping" people in America then all is forgiven???
What a nationalist pig!! Root root for the home team ?????????
anon @ 70:
Speaking of tired and off point, they are trained as soldiers in the event of an attack on OUR country, not so they can be used to attack other countries. You really are a tool AND a fool. In this imperfect world sometimes it is necessary to use force to defend against individuals who would subjugate others. Want a current example? Look at our current government. Imagine what our country would be like if there had been no resistance in Iraq. BushCo would have had an easy victory, the FAUX viewers would have hailed them as victorious defenders of the Homeland and we would be royally and totally screwed. Get the point skippy?
Well, either I'm being blocked from posting or the site monitors are having a ludite moment.
Huffington censors replies to protect the fragile egos of their bloggers (I have documented this). Is that happening here? I hope not. I hope there is just a ludite wandering around in there somewhere.
anon @ 70:
I'm not sure what your point is? Do you agree with the posts by pirate?
Anti-depressants probably makes it easier to live and breath war. It's chemical warfare kinda.
Chicken Hussein Little - NOT!! @ 62:
Yes, and now we are trading with Japan and Germany and we have many thousands of troops in both countries.
WWII was as much about money for death as any other war. The soldiers in Germany and Japan also accepted money for death.
Soldiers accept money in return for killing others. That is a fact, no matter how you try to justify it!!!!!!!!!!!
Chicken Hussein Little - NOT!! @ 73:
what are you talking about.
They are not 'conditional' soldiers. There is no such thing.
I dont believe you have read my posts.
And piss of with the skippy shit.
#61-diamondmc
Before you wrench your back by waving the flag so vigorously, allow me to inform you that as a Vietnam veteran, I am basically in agreement with the sentiments of Underground Pirate. You wish to absolve the "... young men and women who wanted to serve their country and got screwed by the powers that be..." I strongly suggest that you rent or buy the powerful documentary Sir! No Sir!, which told the story of the GI movement during the Vietnam conflict. If you were to do so, you would hear former Green Beret [that is right, a Green Beret] Donald Duncan wisely observe that:
"The problem I had was realizing that what I was doing was not good. I was doing it right, but I wasn't doing right."
Director David Zeiger accurately observed in an interview that the soldiers "are just as capable as anyone of knowing right from wrong."
The same thing applies to what is going on in Iraq and Afghanistan. Each day those people have to endure countless atrocities at the hands of American soldiers and marines. No one is forcing them to pull those triggers or making them drop U.S. bombs on defenseless villages and homes. To try and claim that they are not culpable for their actions is to be either incredibly naive or a mindless superpatriot. The true heroes of this country are the members of the IVAW [Iraq Veterans Against the War]and people like Lt. Ehren Watada, certainly not those soldiers who blindly go along with the illegal and immoral orders that they are given against the citizens of third world countries.
diamondmc @ 75:
I am posting - anon - I am not pirate. I speak for myself.
My point here is that members of the guard are soldiers. There use in Iraq is evidence of that. The argument is too often made that the guard are tornado fighters or 'continental' soldiers. Its a false argument. They are soldiers. Period. The argument of disaster relief needs to stop. We can deal with disasters without using soldiers.
By the way, there is sure a lot of name calling and ad hominem coming from the opposition.
There is no rational moral defense for soldiering. Soldiers do not "defend" us. They kill others.
If someone comes into my home and threatens my family, then I can defend them.
Soldiers accept money to kill others. They are thugs.
One of the shocking things about that statistic is that it's not that much higher than the number of Americans in general who are on anti-depressants.
http://www.biopsychiatry.com/antidepressants/usa.html
I think this is becoming like Huffington. My largest posts - two of them - are simply missing.
I guess Logan has a 'sensitive' nature.
Erroll @ 79:
I am also a Vietnam combat vet and I am not waving no god damn flag. I was also a member of VVAW and I support IVAW, but to blame all vets as killers who only fight for money is bullshit and you know it People join the military for many reasons and to label them killers and baby rapers is the same kinda crap I put up with some people when I came back. You can live in your black and white world if you want, but the world is full of gray.
anon @ 70:
Not enough fiber?
anon @ 78:
You are a fool skippy. I've read all your posts. They show you to be a naive, self-absorbed, judgmental fool. You might want to read some history skippy. Many European countries have "conditional" soldiers. They are trained as soldiers but serve their time doing public service work and assist in emergencies.
You want to get rid of the military, work to bring justice to the world. As long as there are enormous inequities in the world there will be a need to protect the weak from the strong. All getting rid of the military will do at this point in human history is guarantee that the likes of the Bush Crime Family around the world will subjugate those they govern. Wake up skippy.
diamondmc @ 84:
You can live in your black and white world if you want, but the world is full of gray.
Erin Gray?
http://www.robotsandwrestlers.com/wp-content/uploads/ErinGray.jpg
86 Chicken Hussein Little - NOT!!
Well to be fair the National Guard is also for defense within our own borders. They somewhat took the place of the State Militias early in our history, who were used for quelling insurrections. The National Guard was used to whomp on hippies in the 60's. But the governor of California who kept calling them out was voted by former hippies to be prez ronnie ray-gun.
Chicken Hussein Little - NOT!! @ 86:
Since you are incapable of civil dialogue - this is my last reply to you.
Bush is attempting to extend empire by using the professional military. No professional military == no invasion of Iraq. Dont expect a Swiss empire. They dont have the military for it. But dont expect them to be defenseless either. They have a defensive military.
Sadly, you havent read all my posts. Two of my largest posts - are missing.
There is a cost savings with the guard. It involves using the guard in natural disasters. The use of the guard in war has nothing to do with cost savings. The guard are soldiers - trained and equipped. They are being used as they were meant to be used.
No please - honestly - leave me alone. I wont respond again.
ysbaddaden @ 88:
Yep abuse happens everywhere. Kinda' the point. Obviously the current regime recognizes the limitations that are supposed to be placed on the use of citizen militias otherwise they wouldn't be building up private contractors like Blackwater. I wonder how loudly our buddy Underground Pirate would be screaming if nothing existed in the country to protect him from an outfit like Blackwater if they decided to run amok on an even larger scale than they did in New Orleans?
anon @ 89:
Works for me. Bye bye
anon@89: You are right about bush fighting the war on the cheap, but don't kid yourself, he would have invaded Iraq even if we had the draft.
Chicken Hussein Little - NOT!! @ 90:
And of course there was a thirty year period between 1973 and 2003 where National Guardsmen were rarely use for quelling riots that were no longer so prevalent. That's when the National Guard became known as first responders, and presumably why people volunteered for the Guard.
Here is an example of how not to argue a point. Chicken Hussein Little - NOT!! Says:
"You are a fool skippy. I’ve read all your posts. They show you to be a naive, self-absorbed, judgmental fool. You might want to read some history skippy."
These are ad hominem attacks and are not acceptable as argument methods.
I have not seen anything posted here that can refute the fact that all soldiers (regardless of country except perhaps Switzerland) accept money
and are trained to kill others. Killing is only acceptable to protect yourself in your home from certain proscribed threats.
If someone from Germany or Japan came into my fathers house and threatened us, he would have killed him. We have 300 million guns in America and we
can use them to kill intruders if it happens. We can all protect ourselves and our families when the threat appears in our homes.
diamondmc @ 92:
Here is the difference.
With a defensive military - which we dont have - an offensive capability would need to be created. That is much harder than talking Powell into lying to the UN. That requires money, time and lots of people. (As a vietnam vet - I know you understand that when you raise large numbers of people in a small time it causes controversy).
Bush is nuts and doesnt respect life. You are absolutely right, he would want to invade Iraq. The question is, could he have pulled it off. I'm guessing no. They way it was done, if Powell succeeds in the UN, its war. (A small number of failure points). If he had to build an offensive capability, there would be many many possible failure points.
Hard to say though. But even now with an offensive capability, he is having trouble starting his next war on Iran. He still may do it.
Chicken Hussein Little - NOT!! @ 90:
Firstly, do you think that US troops will protect me from Blackwater? If Blackwater employees enter my home and threaten me, I will kill them.
That is legitimate self protection.
Underground Pirate @ 94:
You really are a funny guy. Just what do you think that shotgun is going to do against a tank? You have been watching to much Red Dawn brother.
anon @ 48:
The taxpayer
“You don’t always know who the bad guys are,” he says. “When you search someone’s house, you have it built up in your mind that these guys are terrorists, but when you go in, there’s little bitty tiny shoes and toys on the floor — things like that started affecting me a lot more than I thought they would.”
diamondmc, I had a number of detailed replys to you that the site is just not allowing to be posted.
I must have offended Logan with my initial post which did appear and is now missing. Not that I care honestly.
Welcome to freedom. (And the Huffington Post South).
Underground Pirate @ 96:
Wow you are a fool (and incredibly ill informed). Blackwater employees in New Orleans during Katrina were deputized by the Federal Government. Had you, my little peacenik friend, just killed one for coming into your home you would either have been gunned down by LE or sentenced to death. So far Guard units are still under state control (part of the reason for Blackwater) and could be ordered to protect you from paid federal mercenaries.
I live in a "gun" county skippy, very rural and filled with people who know how to use weapons for self-defense. None of my friends and neighbors hold your delusion that we would prevail against a well armed, well trained military force. You've been watching (and believing) way to much Hollywood pap.
#84-diamondmc
You did not state whether you have seen Sir! No Sir!. If you had, perhaps you recall the scene in the GI Coffeehouse when a soldier who had been to Vietnam said to those soldiers who were going that they should not think that if they end being a clerk typist, that that would somehow get them off the hook, because they will still be a part of an organization that is illegally occupying and oppressing another country. As the film made very clear, those soldiers. like the soldiers today, have choices.
You believe that "people join the military for many reasons". While that may be technically true, it must also be incredibly naive for them to believe, despite what their recruiter did NOT tell them, that there was an extremely good chance that they would end up in either Iraq or in Afghanistan.
You say that the world is not black or white. Again, while that may be true in many instances, in this case, American soldiers are participating in the brutalization and terrorization of Iraqis and Afghanis on a daily basis. You have a lot of sympathy for those in the military. Yet I do not see an ounce of empathy for what the Iraqis and Afghanis are going through at the hands of the American military. This reminds me of what Jane Fonda said in Sir! No Sir!. She recalled that when growing up, whenever she saw an American flag on a battlefield. "I though we were on the side of the angels." I used to think the same thing until I finally reached an epiphany years after I returned from overseas and understood that Donald Duncan was right when he titled his book "It Was All A Lie!"
Soldiers resist!-by saying NO the U.S. war machine.
I'm reading this story about that poor troopers experiences and fuck knows anti-depressant drugs are actually the only thing at this point that can deaden the horrors these guys and gals see and are put thru 24/7/365 and allow them to go out on patrol yet one more time in a neverending cycle. Like JohnnyPunchClock@5, after 8 years of Bush/Cheney, hell we probably all need a script... But what it really gets me thinking about is the fact everyone nowadays likes to argue about how easy it is to get married and how easy it is to get divorces and what not... And how maybe we need to make all that more difficult in this society... Ya know what I think?? Fuck all that!... And let the gays ruin their lives over that 'hallowed' institution as well if that's what they want to do... Given reality? That's all such bullshit to worry about these days...It really is... Maybe, just maybe, what we 'all' really need to figure out is.... How to make it more difficult for whomever are our leaders to 'start' Goddamned WARS!!! Yea, I know, what am I smokin, you want some too..... Likely have more luck impeaching George and Dick and we ALL know how well that idea is going.....What a depressingly perfect clusterfuck we're in now.... wrecking another generation over geopolitical BULLSHIT!!!And I want to thank all the usual suspects for this perfect world they have saddled the rest of us all with now..starting with the two aforementioned assholes....JD
diamondmc @ 97:
Once again an ad hominem comment!
Tell me, whose tanks are you talking about? An American tank? Coming to kill me in my home?
That is something that America does to people in other countries.
What do those people abroad do when American tanks threaten them in their homes?
There is sure a lot of name calling here!
Are these name callers feeling guilty for something?
anon @ 100:
Sorry about that, I would have read anything you had to say, even if I didn't agree with it. I'm not pro war or pro killing, what I am against are stupid comments like what pirate has been posting.
94 Underground Pirate
Actually they are not ad hominem attacks, but dependent upon one's opionions, observations and insults.
Ad Hominems are generally off message entirely, but if the post responds to any of your points than it is not Ad Hominem.
You seem to be trying to employ a Captiuncula ab Ambiguus,
And believe me, I'm an old hand at this.
comment @103
that is a great way to remove a comment from the stream of dialogue.
You win. I quit.
Sorry diamondmc.
[It's up now. It got caught in the spam filter. It's automatic, not human driven. We're very sorry you've had problems with it this morning-Sitemonitor]
Underground Pirate @ 104:
Well if they didn't have some form of organized resistance I guess there wouldn't be much they could do.
You ever consider what China might do if it can't feed it billions of citizens in the near future? Hmmmmm......I suppose you'd just take out your shotgun and defend yourself against the Chinese Military Authority if it set up shop in the US in order to feed its people. Injustice exists all over the world. Work to eliminate that and the world's militaries won't be necessary.
Actually they are not ad hominem attacks, but dependent upon one’s vantage point are opionions, observations and insults.
Jack Damage asks " How to make it more difficult for whomever are our leaders to ’start’ Goddamned WARS!!!"
We can do 1 very important thing to stop war. Stop providing the military industrial complex with soldiers. Let them fight their
wars of greed on the Internet where they can only spend money but no one dies.
98 Underground Pirate
Never heard of Ruby Ridge
Nor Mt Carmel?
They go over there with good intentions (believing the lies about Al CIA Duh, WMD, bringing democracy, blah, blah) but soon realize that THEY are the bad guys.
Underground Pirate @ 107:
I am a Viet Nam combat vet and it was you sir who attacked me first by calling me a murder and a killer for money. Like I said before, how many vets have you said that to their face? I bet not one, you only can run this crap when you are safe in your basement typing on your computer.
diamondmc @ 108:
Yes, more ad hominem.
Soldiering is killing for money. That is the fundamental fact that your house of cards teeters on.
diamondmc @ 116:
If I said that to your face, you might become violent and I avoid violence.
Underground Pirate @ 119:
I wouldn't waste my time on a kid, and by the way you have been the only one on this site who has said you would kill someone if you were threatened. So much for being non-violent.
[This fight is over now-Sitemonitor]
Underground Pirate @ 114:
Man every time you touch your keyboard you prove your ignorance. The military industrial complex would LOVE to get rid of soldiers. Can't make anywhere near the money off of them that you make with huge automated weapons systems. Maybe you haven't noticed the trend towards robots, drones and other UNMANNED weapons systems. People are messy, cost money, you've got to pay them disabilities if they get injured; they are a drain on profits.
Once again you show yourself to be a fool and a tool skippy. Toss me another softball, I'm enjoying a little batting practice until the rain stops here and I can get to work growing food to feed your ignorant face.
[Deleted. Off topic, as was the rest of the fight-Sitemonitor]
And John McSame has the wrinkled up old BALLS to claim the GI-Bill is TOO EXPENSIVE !?!?!?
That shit wont flush in November.
OT:
I have been confused concerning an issue with punctuation for awhile now.
I always thought that when addressing a comment to a specific person, you separated your thought from their name (or insult directed at them) with a comma. Like so:
"I don't agree with you, skippy".
Not having it just looks incorrect to me:
"I don't agree with you skippy".
Is the comma optional?
WOW, what the heck was going on in this thread ?
Shock and Awe ?
Sorry about that sitemonitor. Fella just got under my skin.
If there's anything more dangerous than an ignorant, self-righteous, myopic rightie it's those character flaws in a far lefty. Those of us who have parents who fought in WWII and then joined the service (or were drafted) in our youth know what a double edged sword the military is. Having some sanctimonious twerp lecture us on the "evil" of being part of a group whose job is supposed to be to protect the weak from the strong just set me off this morning. Particularly his first post where he suggested cutting our returning veterans off from health care and benefits.
Aaaarggggghhhhh.......okay I'll behave now.
"For the first time in history, a sizable and growing number of U.S. combat troops are taking daily doses of antidepressants to calm nerves strained by repeated and lengthy tours in Iraq and Afghanistan."
That's only because certain factions of society have thoroughly, and without merit, demonized Marijuana.
Bonkers @ 125:
That's the beauty of the blogosphere.
A huge misunderstanding can ignite from the mere lack of a simple little COMMA !
Not to mention waht can happen if you ever forget a winky face ... ;) .... when you are kidding or a "(snark)" when you mean sarcasm.
Humans use body language, facial expressions and tone of voice in addition to words during conversations for very, very, good reasons. Cyberspace allows only words.
Dan-in-PA @ 128:
Vote NORML !
(munches on snacks)
Chico Hussein @ 129:
Yeah, I know. I am betting a lot of these "fights" would look a lot different in person. The protagonists might even be chuckling and spilling beer on each other's shoes. Same words, same topics, but different inflections, more friendly, rather than anonymous, facial expressions, etc.
But seriously, do we use a comma, Chico? Or should that be: do we use a comma Chico?
Underground Pirate @ 118:
Hey. Pirate...I kinda see your point, but you are incorrect in a few of your assertions.
One. Being as soldier is not killing for money, soldiers serve their country. Look up mercenary. Blackwater... they kill for money.
Two. You are lumping all military personnel as bloodthirsty killers, some are yes, but most aren't. And you're insulting veterans who have fought and died in order for you to have these ill informed opinions.
Three. The paychecks you keep referring to that our soldiers receive aren't very big...again, see Blackwater, they're making ALOT more than our military, and have no accountability. Our military does.
Four. You made the mistake of attempting to match wits with ysbadadden, diamondmc, anon, and chicken little and others. all of which have you terribly out gunned in that area.
I may not agree with everyone here, but I respect their opinions. I am trying to respect yours as well, but you are making it difficult.
I wonder how many personal will be killed because their buddy was just alittle bit slow because of being on antidepressants? When I was in, if someone needed antidepressants they would have been taken off the line.
The point of the whole thread seems to be closely related to multiple tours of hazardous duty (no longer one or two, but three or four), extended tours from twelve months to fifteen, VA mental health care, stop-gap recruitment.
And all these guys are eventually going to come home with all sorts of problems and needs. So to simply dismiss them as thugs and killers becomes in effect self-accusatory.
Bonkers and Chico!
"Yeah, I know. I am betting a lot of these "fights" would look a lot different in person. The protagonists might even be chuckling and spilling beer on each other's shoes. Same words, same topics, but different inflections, more friendly, rather than anonymous, facial expressions, etc."
Y'all been spyin on me when I'm at the pub? HA!
liberalHUSSEINmoderation @ 132:
Well said...Thanks.
132 liberalHUSSEINmoderation
As a neo-pacifist I don't out-gun anyone,
I out-whiffle-bat them.
diamondmc @ 136:
No prob!
And YSB...hehehe....whiffle ball bats...they still hurt dude! ask my sisters!
I would've thought that the percentage of hapless U.S. service people in Iraq and Afghanistan who are getting by with the aid of anti-depressants would be much higher, all things considered.
I'm betting that the North American 'soccer mom' demographic is probably what's really keeping Eli Lilly in business..
I think everytime our comments have trouble with the filtering for spam
C&L should send us packages of mustard.
You know what really pisses me off? I see these commercials on TV all the time for "Donate to support our troops". Now, even if 100% of that TV time was free and it was 100% no overhead, there's just still the ridiculous notion that we private citizens should donate to support the troops.
The troops are paid for by our tax dollars, meaning if I don't spend one dime in donations, I'm supporting the troops by my very nature of having a social security number. But look beyond that, in a 24 hour a day media circus around sound bytes, there's the notion that Republicans SUPPORT THE TROOPS... which you hear pretty much damn near everywhere.
If the Republicans really supported the troops, why the hell would there be such a need to donate to these third party organizations? Why not just say "Fuck this mercenary shit and privatization, we'll pump the soliders' salaries up 25% and use more money to fix things like the VA hospitals and their 8 month waiting list." But I guess there's no profit in all of that, so lets just keep donating to put a band-aid on the sucking chest wound that this administration gave to the armed forces.
And, quite frankly, those people here posting "all the military is are paid killers" or "they deserve it" need to shut the fuck up. Post 9-11, people joined the military in droves to defend what was thought to be a part of a larger attack on the US. Don't knock people's desire to serve and protect this country with your pointless, self-serving rhetoric. You bring nothing to the table other than disdain for the troops, which should be placed on this administration for using 9-11 and convoluting everything they had their hands on to make this war look "justified".
Seriously, do me a favor. Move to China. Bitch about how they're paid killers, and you'll protect whoever invades your home with your oh-so-macho-rambo-style-awesome-machette-and-AK47-skills-you-think-you-have so they can show you how paid killers work. Maybe they'll use your corpse, bullets and all, in the next round of dog food so they can give us a little more lead poisoning.
Hold the mustard gas.
127 Chicken Hussein Little - NOT!!
Interesting thing when you put the far left and the far right on the same circle,
Relatively speaking they're so close they're practically boinking.
That's why I suspect sometimes, in some cases, we have the reichwing showing up on liberal sites, with a more liberal than thou attitude, to stir up trouble, and make the site demonstrative of how racist, sexist, anti-American, anti-soldier they are until the MSM takes up the call.
liberalHUSSEINmoderation @ 135:
That black eye you gave me hurts a lot less with that pint you bought me right after. Fanks, mate!
Bonkers @ 143:
Anytime my friend! Round o darts anyone?
Russo @ 141:
Well said Russo!
My Fox watching Bush loving MIL is dealing with supporting her granddaughter as she gets on with life after serving in Afghanistan. The gradndaughter has been on antidepressants and anti-anxiety medication for a year now. She was not ready for the poverty in Afghanistan, the coldness of the winter and watching kids without shoes and coats walking around. Even if you don't see combat, the war is taking its toll.
Although I'm angry we ever started this war, I'm even angrier that we aren't taking good care of those who volunteered to serve their country.
neocon formula to success military industrial complex and pharmacuetical industry.........keep shareholders happy at all cost
Bonkers @ 143:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXKxs8Ge_9g
Chico Hussein @ 130:
just for the record, I deployed with my 200 mg per day of SSRI's, and I served fine. hell I was better off then everyone else in my sector.
I didn't have one unexplained panic attack while I was over there. Why??? I knew I had people trying kill me
(Stateside though is a different story.)
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