Matthew 25 Network gets to work
By Steve Benen Wednesday Jul 02, 2008 8:30amThere's a new religious political action committee, the Matthew 25 Network, that may very well have an impact on the political scene this year, far more than any religious progressives have had in quite a while.
To briefly review, the Matthew 25 Network is spearheaded by Mara Vanderslice, who served as director of religious outreach for Kerry-Edwards in 2004, and who has been active in encouraging Democratic candidates to discuss matters of spirituality more openly on the campaign trail.
The PAC's efforts have been kept under wraps for a while, but we learned this week about the group's first initiative -- a minute-long ad that will begin airing on Christian radio stations.
The ad anticipates trouble, and addresses it head-on. It implicitly acknowledges that the audience may have seen those ridiculous smear e-mails, and it's "hard to know what to believe." That's why, the Matthew 25 Network argues, Christians have a duty to consider a person's testimony.
Now, I can appreciate the fact that non-Christians may not find any of this compelling, and may not even like the fact that these ads are running. But keep in mind, the ads aren't coming from Barack Obama or anyone associated with his campaign or the party -- this is an independent Christian PAC, targeting Christian voters, on Christian radio, with a Christian message.
And it sounds like the group is offering a message not usually associated with Democratic politics.
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is it me or does this pic try to make him look whiter? and therefore more "angelic"?
All the evangelical base belong to us.
If the sky ghost worshipers want to play politics, then the church should pay taxes.
This guy is all about religion. Bringing religion into the campaign when he had previously said he would not. Sounds like political expediency to me. Where's the new kind of politician? Where's the new way to change Washington? Where's the beef?
Look, this is all part of the game. And politics IS a game!
Why must we play the game on their terms?
Let's keep religion OUT of politics. I'm with johnx on this.
As a lifelong dem, I can't exactly say I'm thrilled at all of these contortions to attract evangelicals, especially living through all the BS and division this country has had to put up with from (most, not all) of these groups since Reagan first sucked up/lied to them. Gay Bashing? Check. Irresponsible environmental policies (because Jesus is coming back anyway, of course)? Check. Warmongering, especially towards Islamic countries? Check. Science-bashing, leading to teaching our children nonsense while ignoring facts and evidence (plus denying advances that would allow better medicines, less human suffering)? Check. Con artists and scammers bilking old ladies out of money so they can buy Mercedes, theme parks, and of course more satellites to beam their BS? Check.
I could go on, but suffice to say, these people need to return to the margins of the political process. I'm sick of them.
I dont believe in any religion myself... however I really appreciate it when religious people use their religion as an excuse to actually help people in need instead of just hate them or convert them.
There IS a place for them in our society for example as Ron Paul has suggested if they were encouraged to do so we could END the war on drugs and instead of using the police and prisons to deal with people we could rely on society turning to the religious to try to help people CHOOSE to stop being addicted and get their families more involved in HELPING them choose to stop being addicted. And considering how many people there are in this country that are religious that is a real alternative that doesnt include the violence of the police.
Putting the religious in such a position of responsibilty just might help reverse this trend that the republicans have grown where the religious think more like racists instead of more like purveyors of good...
Gollum @ 6:
That might work in a perfect world, but this Earth. And on Earth, in the US, people vote based on their religious convictions. Either you use this, or you let the right run crazy (as they have) and declare themselves the holy political side despite their warmongering, hatred of the poor, or love of wealth. Let these folks spend their money how they want. It's not like they're forcing you to listen to Christian radio.
Disclaimer: I'm an agnostic.
After the Rev Wright deal and the other minister (can't remember his name) then the question about whether Senator Obama is a Muslim, something like this was probably necessary.
Not all people who are religious are nut cases. Many are now taking responsibility for the environment and the realities of life.
I think it's unfair to put all people who believe in a god into one giant group. Just as there are differences among liberal groups, there are differences among religious groups. Some religious people do wonderful things for their fellow man and stick to the kinder side of the Bible, the New Testament.
And no, I have no religious beliefs at all, unless you think that believing that the Golden Rule is a great way to live, is considered in some way religious.
(now I'll prepare to duck as the rotten tomatoes are thrown at me)
Is it only me that hasn't "heard the Lord".
Seems like every politician or convict has at one point. Am I tuned to the wrong channel or what?
We have to win. Period. If this means he has to say he disagrees with the Supreme Court on the death penalty and child rapists, that he agrees with the hand-gun decision, and that he has to bring religion into the campaign, than so be it. No only do we have to win, but we have to win by a big enough margin so they can't steal the election. Again.
There is no other option - if we lose this time we lose everything.
Were this the reformation I might be inclined to care about the next monarch's choice of religion. However since this is supposed to be the 21st century I find it disturbing that we're still attempting to use loyalty to tribal deities as a selling point for a future leader.
It's sad that we are held hostage to these people and their insane world view. If you find it "hard to know what to believe" when you're being told that Obama is a Muslim who attends a radical Christian church, or if you find it "hard to know what to believe" when you're told that he's both an inexperienced outsider but also "the guy at the country club with the beautiful date, holding a martini and a cigarette", you might be a complete moron.
But then again, what do you expect from a group of people who think that the world is 6,000 years old and flat. Anyone who thinks that "God did it" is a scientific theory is going to have a hard time knowing what to believe, because they have been raised to believe whatever they are told, rather than thinking for themselves.
Don't get me wrong, I'm glad that Obama has a chance with the evangelicals, but I'm pretty tired of evangelicals infecting our national discourse with superstition and backwards thinking. Evangelicals are running away from the GOP because of the damage it has done to people's view of Christians. So, instead of taking religion out of politics and back into the church (where it belongs), the fundies switch sides. At some point these people need to wake up and realize that religion's only real purpose is political - it was like that in the time of Constantine and it's still like that today.
The last line said, "...we think it's time for a better christian witness in politics".
Just what is it about these people that the meaning of seperation of church and state seems to escape their comprehension?
I agree with johnx @ 3 about imposing taxes of all religeons but also suggest that all religeons be licensed and audited regularly. If they think religeon is real and important to our existence then lets require certified leaders that graduate from approved (by the state) schools. If they want to screw with people who don't believe their crap than it will be necessary to screw with them.
Like it or not - if we don't reach out to the Christians (who at least TRY to follow Christ's teachings), all they'll hear is attack ads from the KK-Kristians (who use cropped quotes from the King James version of the Bible to justify their own hate-filled screeds).
If you're still having trouble stomaching it, think of it as attacking the Republican Party's current incarnation at its sick, twisted core - the Reagan deal under which Wall Street money came pouring in to dupe trusting church-goers into voting for tax cuts for the wealthy and massive cuts in the social programs forming a "safety net" for the less fortunate.
Steve,
When you say, "it sounds like the group is offering a message not usually associated with Democratic politics"...
Do you really mean, "it sounds like the group is offering a message not usually associated with progressive politics"...?
'Cos with timorous Obama twisting in the wind, breaking promises, betraying supporters, giving the thumbs-up to wiretaps and pandering to fascists, he's acting exactly like the same freaked-out paranoid dumbass scaredycat Democrats that we've seen undermining genuinely progressive political positions for the past decade.
pissed off patricia
They probably aren't rotten tomatoes, just tainted!
Agent_M @ 2:
Oh, well done, BTW... Hilarious.
The change I am looking for is a politician who leaves religion at the door when they enter the political arena.
On this point, when folk insist that Obama MUST do this it's fulfilling a self imposed prophecy. Keep saying democrats must pander or adopt religious language and of course that's how it'll be.
Again change would be the candidate who doesn't feel the need to go all religious once the elections get close.
Anyway back when Obama was new on the scene he said this...I think he should heed his own advice.
"I am not suggesting that every progressive suddenly latch on to religious terminology - that can be dangerous. Nothing is more transparent than inauthentic expressions of faith. We don't need that." -Barack Obama
"TRANSPARENT" "INAUTHENTIC" "DANGEROUS"
There is a difference between the Fundamentalist and Evangelical vote. The Evangelical vote is up for grabs. To be an evangelical is to spread the word of Christ and how it relates to your life. Obama has never been one to shy away from telling his story of his faith. I even do it when I get a chance and on open ear and therefore could be call evangelical. If Obama expressing his faith can shift the votes his way, I'm all for it.
Fundamentalist usually beleive the Bible is the word of God andquotes single lines out of Leviticas to give backing to their hatred such as gay bashing. It makes me cringe to hear them quote one line out of context. Those voters make up Boosh's base and may stay home when it comes to McSame.
I can base my liberal beliefs such as universal healthcare, environmentalism and social justice on what what Jesus taught. I also know my history and understand there HAS to be a clear seperation of church and state. I want the freedom of religion and that means all faiths and those of no faith.
Revs. Farrakhan, Wright, Plegler, Jackson, Sharpton are all smiling broadly! Thank Jesus for Barack! Thank God for Barack! Our biggest payday ever is coming after he's sworn in as POTUS! [no thanks]
Agent_M @ 2:
FTW! LOL :D
Oh and they can have them back. We don't want em.
RepubAnon @ 16:
so what are barack's plans in that regar (i.e., tax cuts, social progams, etc.)?
Mary @ 4:
Not to be confrontational, but I'm actually interested. What exactly did Obama say (when/where if you know) that defined a commitment to not bring religion into the campaign?
How can you say on one hand that Senator Obama suddenly got religious when the question a few months back was how could he have gone to Rev. Wright's church for twenty years and not know Rev. Wright's attitude.
It would be nice if we could elect a president without bringing fairy tales into it.
My question to Obama would be: What is he going to do about the threat posed by the Vogon Constructor Fleet? (Apparently not much, since he's cutting manned space exploration.)
SlowBurn @ 24:
Hop over to his website and find out.
I don't like this, but I can see why he has to do it. Obama will be alot better than McCain and if he screws up, We'll just vote him out of office in 4 years. But that would give the repugs an opportunity. So he better do a good job, alot is at stake.
RepubAnon @ 16:
But I don't want my part to have the same sick, twisted core. A liberal theocracy isn't any better than a conservative theocracy. And by putting so much emphasis on religiousity, that's what we're going to end up with: Two parties chained to religious myth.
Jefferson and Paine are spinning in their graves.
SlowBurn @ 22:
And might you be willing to explain in a coherent manner how that would even be such a terrible thing? Let's say, and I highly doubt you're anywhere near the truth but for the sake of argument, let's say those Revs you listed have access to Obama as POTUS. How is that any different or worse than the people like Hagee and Parsely and Dobson (not a rev) and Robertson and Fallwell and Bob Jones III, all of whom have had access in some degree to Reagan, Bush N (nefarious), and Bush R (retarded)?
All this Christian shit makes me nuts. It would be so nice to elect a president and not bring any religion into the discussion, ever.
Obama gave a speech called "Call to Renewal" I think two years ago. (I quoted from it above). He talks about how progressive must be careful about adopting religious terminology, etc.
Also in that speech he points his finger at secularists. He says that secularists are just as bad as the religious right. He also frames the debate in the exact same manner as the religious right would. How secularists want to remove god from the public square, etc. He even specifically mentions the pledge of allegiance and howe secularists are wrong for wanting to restore the pledge to it's pre-1954 wording (i.e. without the phrase 'under god).
I'm gonna quote Obama a bit (I hope this is ok on these comment boards).
http://obama.senate.gov/speech/060628-call_to_renewal/
"I am not suggesting that every progressive suddenly latch on to religious terminology - that can be dangerous. Nothing is more transparent than inauthentic expressions of faith. As Jim has mentioned, some politicians come and clap -- off rhythm -- to the choir. We don't need that.
In fact, because I do not believe that religious people have a monopoly on morality, I would rather have someone who is grounded in morality and ethics, and who is also secular, affirm their morality and ethics and values without pretending that they're something they're not. They don't need to do that. None of us need to do that.
But what I am suggesting is this - secularists are wrong when they ask believers to leave their religion at the door before entering into the public square. Frederick Douglas, Abraham Lincoln, Williams Jennings Bryant, Dorothy Day, Martin Luther King - indeed, the majority of great reformers in American history - were not only motivated by faith, but repeatedly used religious language to argue for their cause. So to say that men and women should not inject their "personal morality" into public policy debates is a practical absurdity. Our law is by definition a codification of morality, much of it grounded in the Judeo-Christian tradition....
Finally, any reconciliation between faith and democratic pluralism requires some sense of proportion.
This goes for both sides.
...
But a sense of proportion should also guide those who police the boundaries between church and state. Not every mention of God in public is a breach to the wall of separation - context matters. It is doubtful that children reciting the Pledge of Allegiance feel oppressed or brainwashed as a consequence of muttering the phrase "under God." I didn't. Having voluntary student prayer groups use school property to meet should not be a threat, any more than its use by the High School Republicans should threaten Democrats. And one can envision certain faith-based programs - targeting ex-offenders or substance abusers - that offer a uniquely powerful way of solving problems.
So we all have some work to do here. But I am hopeful that we can bridge the gaps that exist and overcome the prejudices each of us bring to this debate. And I have faith that millions of believing Americans want that to happen. No matter how religious they may or may not be, people are tired of seeing faith used as a tool of attack. They don't want faith used to belittle or to divide. They're tired of hearing folks deliver more screed than sermon. Because in the end, that's not how they think about faith in their own lives." - Barack Obama
Matthew 25 Network is a political PAC, and as such, is subject to taxes. Contributions to this PAC are not tax write-offs.
Therefore, I have no problem with their existence, per se.
I have far worse problems with Senator Obama supporting the anti-constitutional FISA bill, then with him expressing that he is a Christian.
And after all is said and done, I would like everyone from the Bush Administration to start travelling abroad, starting in January 2009. You know, sorta enjoy their retirement. They could start with the Netherlands.
The hard core evangelicals are never going to vote for Senator Obama and I think we all know that. Since he has flatly stated he is for a woman's right to choose, that rules him out in their book. This is an appeal to regular religious people who feel religion is a large part of their life and it's to tell them that no, he isn't some radical black man, or a Muslim.
The saddest part of this to me is that he wouldn't have a chance in hell of being elected if he were a Muslim. I hope one day our country can get past that attitude too.
Fcuk that, the Obi campaign is just trying to keep the Republicans and the media from defining him.
Whatever it takes
The ONLY thing that might make me not vote for Obama (which means I won't vote at all) is his desire to expand the so-called "faith-based" policies of Bush. I realize, of course, I'm in the 10% crowd in this country (the rational minority) when it comes to having no religious leanings.
Why is there NO discussion of a national divorce? I'd absolutely support a secession of liberal states from the Jesus-drunk south and midwest.
I'd absolutely support a secession of liberal states from the Jesus-drunk south and midwest.
I think Obama shows us that there are Jesus-drunk people all over the country, and that secession will only mean we have to deal with different kinds of religious tomfoolery.
Yes, of course, I'm voting/volunterring/giving money to Obama, and voted for him in the primary... But please! Obama asked groups not to run ads for him, but this is ok? I never expected Obama to be my progressive dream date, and thought HRC was a tad more progressive on domestic policies, but at least I thought an Obama ticket could create more of a space for a progressive movement/agenda. Sigh.
The key here is the title of the organization: Matthew 25.
As a lapsed Catholic, I always point out to people that my nuns taught me the core of Jesus' teachings are in Matthew 25 in the parable of the sheep and the goats. Whatsoever you do to the least of my brothers. If you can get the fundies and evangelicals to remember that there was a list of things Jesus told us to do as good moral beings, and that none of them included persecuting gays or seeking great wealth, then we have a chance of turning this country around.
Here is the passage: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=25&version=31
And here is, in my opinion, an interesting exchange I had on my blog about this subject as it relates to single payer healthcare:
http://cmhmd.blogspot.com/2007/08/biblegatewaycom-search-for-bible.html
Cheers,
loosehead len @ 17:
Obviously Obama isn't timorous or he wouldn't be taking on the hard left on this.
It is a politically smart move.
And IF we honor MLK has a hero we have to acknowledge that he galvanized his movement through the church, but did not ask that you hold fealty to that church.
Does anyone here know what progressive actually means? A step by step process to examine and evaluate challenges and take pragmatic steps to get things done.
Without the church their would have been no civil rights marches. The right co-opted this strategy with their compassionate conservatism. Obama intends on taking it back from the righties, the mega-churches and actually make faith work the way it is supposed to. Helping local communities!
Seriously, what does supporting Obama have to do with the 25th chapter of the Book of St. Matthew? That chapter is all about the Divine signs and admonitions of the end of this age. Is there something these sweet saints are trying to imply here?
God the Repug trolls are all over the DU site, aren't they? All kinds of half truths and innuendos all intended to smear & distract. They are a sick & filthy lot and no wonder they don't can't think when they can't even make their case without lying or smearing, or stick to the issues.
gee i hope the right to life people arent put in charge of obamas change! giveing more money to the religous right just might break the back of roe v way, wouldnt that frost the right to an abortion hump! of course thiers i will keep a close watch on the religous right so they dont infringe on any other groups rights! you bet!
This is all so troubling to me, to see Obama mixing religion and politics. I (of course) will vote for Barack, but this has been a really tough pill for me to swallow, seeing him go down the religious path.
Keep religion out of government and government out of religion.
Need I remind you that the christians[and no, I won't capitalize it] made Bush a possibility. What we need is a very large lion's den - not more religion.
I am so sick of religious stuff in politics. The more the push the more I pull away.
A person's private beliefs are their private beliefs. And a true Christian respects you and allows you to do so. Anybody and I mean anybody, republican, democrat or independent who tries to push you to their side is not a true Christian and that's a fact.
There is enough money wasted in political campaigns now money that would better serve the needy is being spent to try to push you to the side of the candidate.
azureblue @ 43:
DU you mean the site that deleted anything negative about obama and threatened to ban you but let the buttholes who kiss obama butt post anything they wanted about Hilllary and THEY WERE THREATENED TO BE BANNED. I stopped giving my money to them 8 months ago I saw where they were going.
johnx @ 3:
I agree. Though I'm actually impressed that these folks are endorsing Obama...instead of McBain...they have quite a large amount of voters. And could help win Obama the election.
April @ 41:
YEAH! What April said....though I still think that religion should keep out of politics...and if they DO receive federal funding...then they should pay taxes like everyone else.
Blue @ 46:
Gollum @ 6:
Steve-O @ 45:
@ All three of you: Your ideas would work....if this was a sane, logical, rational species. Homo sapiens is none of the above, and pretending that most people are going to convert to rationalism and secularism won't make it happen. It would be nice if people realized that Amendment 1 and Article VI make it impossible, Constitutionally for the US to have been a Christian nation or to now be one, but unfortunately in a nation where 1/5 of the population believes in geocentrism, that isn't likely. And Blue, love the genocidal statement there. All 2 billion Christians need to be killed, eh?
Icelander @ 30:
Jefferson was hardly an atheist. A deist, yes, but he never stated that God didn't exist. Paine, OTOH, was atheistic and therefore drummed out of the historical record for a long time. Jefferson was still a religious man, however unorthodox his beliefs were for the time. For that matter, so was Newton.
I can't imagine any of the "Christian" stations here in Mississippi agreeing to run this ad.
Religion: a superstition, invented by the archbishop of hell, and propagated
by his faithful diocesans the clergy, to keep the people in ignorance and
darkness, that they may not see the work of iniquity that is going on.
Under the mask and pretext of the duty to God, they preach up the divine right
of kings to tyrannize, and enjoin us to passive obedience and non-resistance
to oppression.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=uUXWvRPQSAg
INTERJECTING RELIGION INTO POLITICS AND GOVERNMENT AS THIS AD DOES, IS YET ANOTHER REASON TO REMOVE THE BLATANTLY UNCONSTITUTIONAL TAX EXEMPTION AFFORDED TO RELIGIOUS CHURCHES AND INSTITUTIONS!
Want to see a major tax cut on individual income tax?
Then we must demand a stop to our public tax monies subsidizing the church. The church owns nearly 25% of all privately owned land in the US, and it's all TAX FREE to them -- we the middle class make up for them through higher taxes!
alicia01 @ 33:
Thank you for this - we all need more context and thoughtfulness in these forums.
I hope that before anyone comments on this topic they read these critical remarks by Barack. They are the essence of why he is so unusual and so important today. They reflect, again, his commitment to be President of "ALL Americans" and to do so with intelligence and integrity. The nation was founded to enable and protect all of us from government-imposed religion AND the freedom to practice our own faith as we choose (or none at all.)
I see this as a good move. Some of you getting up in arms about "religion in politics" need to take a read at this topic again and see it for what it is - an outside organization representing Christian concerns who are advertising on Christian media to reach... Christians! Their message is NOT for you. They are reaching these people with a language they understand to convince them to check out the issues for themselves.
Matthew 25 is reaching for people who are breaking away from evangelicals; that large group I've been telling you about for months who are now concerned with finally getting involved in the political process for themselves instead of letting Hagee, Dobson, Parsley and the AFA tell them how they should be voting as "Christians". That had been the process in the past. For some of them it is all they know. They are coming to the realization they've been used and they don't like it one bit. They are in the process of becoming brand-new democrats and, frankly, I'm shocked to see some people here posting that they "don't want 'em".
You want to keep the evangelical base solidly voting for whatever dipshit the repubs have running? Keep turning the Christians away, people. That's the fastest road to McCain you can take.
Jules@37, I would also like to see a secession from the south and the magical being crowd, however if that happened it would only be a matter of time before they condemned us as "devil worshipers "or " owl- katers and attacked us with the power of the whole-e toast. I watched a GD tv show for a while this morning and I happened to note that the camara would show these shots of the audience in which their appeared to be 4 or 5 hundred people and you could not see who was on stage. When the shot went back so that you could see the preacher, they only showed about 30 people sitting there, plus the noise from the audience was not even close to what a 500 or 1000 person crowd would make. Any shot that showed the audience and the preacher together only had about 30 or so people.
Just another dirty trick to fool people into thinking that they are just packing them in. Has anyone else seen this? Anyone who has worked for tv aware of this and would like to come forward with this information? Why would a magical being have to try to fool people and / or lie to get them to follow their path. Lie, cheat, twist, bribe, threaten, rewrite history, brain-wash, even kill people, yea thats the one for me. How great it must be to have exclusive license to the wisdom of and will of the magical being, his kid and spooky. Yea,yea, I know,you will laugh as I burn in hell forever. One of us is in for a big fucking surprize. I know this to be true, the magical being just told me so and also said that it is a sin to not believe me, nee-ner, nee-ner, nee-ner.--CEO
I have always asked so-called rightwing "christians" on both sides of the Atlantic what they think is the most important thing written in the bible. They ALWAYS say without missing a beat that the 10 commandments are the most important. When l ask why this is more important than Matthew Ch5 verses 3-12 they usually look blank until l mention that those verses are normally called the Beatitudes. Then those who recognise the relevence either walk off in a huff mumbling or say something extremly rude. :-)
The other thing l do if they do recognise them is that l say that these are what l concider the core principles of a person of liberal political views. It drives them nuts!!!
Ukobserver @ 59:
That's "Blessed are the cheesemakers..." etc right?
negativnein @ 54:
Yeah, like Leftist Revolutionary regimes ended up creating a paradise. I bet you look at the USSR as a fun happyland, don't you?
Austin Dacey has a great book out called "The Secular Conscience." His basic premise is that personal beliefs are an important part of the public discourse. That when secularists took their personal beliefs out of the public discourse, the theists didn't, and that created the imbalance that leaves the impression of secularists not being moral.
Steve-O @ 45:
I think the media began this mix of religion and politics when they fixated on the Rev Wright story.
CEO,citizens,eyes,open @ 58:
I've seen it. Not firsthand, but I've heard it from people who used to sit in places like that themselves. These guys want it to look like they have a huge crowd because then they make more money from the folks at home that send their contributions in through the mail. I call it the sheep mentality - go where everyone else goes and do what they do. That's why it used to be so easy to get all those sheep to vote repub.
The truth is they're getting more and more desperate to keep their money and power. They don't like the direction things are moving in for them and they're too greedy to change. They'll pull anything, including hate and prophecy of doom directed towards the unbelievers, to keep the faithful coming and their checks rolling in.
Its not the religion that makes people like that. Greed makes them that way; they just use the religion as a means to the end.
Wow. So, the the folks who brought you "Big Time Major League Bullsh*t" just love Obama.
Great.
Yay! Another bunch of bible thumpers injecting themselves into the political process!
"Golf clap"
Agent_M @ 2:
FIFY, FWIW.
"You want to keep the evangelical base solidly voting for whatever dipshit the repubs have running? Keep turning the Christians away, people. That’s the fastest road to McCain you can take."
Yeah instead lets become like them! What stuff! Get religion out of politics. Bill Maher said it best. Stop trying to get me to believe in your imaginary friend.
BTW...With all the hub-bub here lately about photos being manipulated to distort reality.
Look at that pic of Obama and tell me what color he is. Talk about lightening up the product for your target audience.
General_Rennenkampf @ 61:
Howdy General. Ready for the weekend?
I'm ready to take a mental vacation from the world and enjoy a 3 day weekend of debauchery. And grilling and fireworks too...
I'm sick of the religious sort hijacking our political process. I don't mind what they believe, but this is potentially dangerous.
We've had religious wars going back at least as far as 1054. The last thing we need is our own version of the Shia Sunni hostilities.
1 otto Says: is it me or does this pic try to make him look whiter? and therefore more “angelic”?
Looks a bit like Michael Jackson.
"...kneeling beneath that cross... I felt that I heard God's spirit beckoning me..."
WTF? Hearing spirits "beckoning"?
God help us.
General_Rennenkampf @ 61:
negativnein comment at 54 seems more of a slam against institutional religion (bordering on state religion) than on any personal religion even shared among friends.
All snarking aside, their is a base core of christains who use reason and thinking to guide them in their goal of living a fullfilled and useful life, causing no harm to others. Those people,except for their religious believe, think the same as we do and should not be condemned as the others.-CEO
johnx @ 3:
If the sky ghost worshipers want to play politics, then the church should pay taxes.
__________________________________________________________
Him?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=46LR3hVjJy8
Watch the YouTube and get your records handed over.
No joke. Here's a recent analysis from the EFF: “Court Ruling Will Expose Viewing Habits of YouTube Users” (July 2, 2008).
A federal judge has just ordered YouTube to hand over all viewing histories.
CEO,citizens,eyes,open @ 74:
Yes. And they're not out to convert the rest of you. As some newer faces here today seem to keep screaming about.
70 lineralAGNOSTICFRONThussein
I do the same thing every 4th of July
Pickled kippers and scrambled eggs for breakfast, potluck for lunch (unfortunately not the smokable kind), fish & chips with plenty of malted vinegar washed down with Bass ale, and rereading the Constitution in it's entirity.
Although this year I'm planning on Shepherd's Pie washed down with Guiness.
ysbaddaden @ 73:
lineralAGNOSTICFRONThussein @ 70:
@Linereal:
Moi aussi.
@Ysbaddaden: Looking back, you're correct, it was.
76 steve
Sounds like an attempt to enforce copyright laws.
However, the way it's worded sounds like fishing expeditions on private citizens, an invasion of privacy in violation of the Ist, IV and V amentments.
I wonder what the court would think of the Youtube links I put on this site?
Gretchen@77 You will laugh yourself to death or start to be really frightened by this one, http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=the+blind+and+the+dead&hl=en&sites...
CEO
If that thread does not work , google Texe Marrs, the blind and the dead-ceo
76 steve Says: Watch the YouTube and get your records handed over.
Look out you fans of Obama Girl!!!
ysbaddaden @ 78:
PIckled kippers?!? that's fish? Right?
I'll be havin homemade corned beef hash. eggs over medium, black beans, and homefries.
All organic.
For lunch, I will probably have a blackened mahi sammich at the pub, washed down with a few pints of Sam Adams summer beer whatever...they don't have PBR on tap ANYWHERE down here...bastards...
And for dinner...we were SUPPOSED to have a pig pickin...but NOOOO, my dad waited too late to ordrer the pig, and looks like we'll be havin bbq beef brisket...which is damn good too...but it ain't like having a fresh free range hawg on a spit in yer backyard...
Would love to have some of y'all come visit this weekend...it's gonna be a hoot.
80 ysbaddaden:
A fair number of people are concerned about their neighbors and bosses finding out which political sites they frequent, and which political videos they watch.
If you read the order carefully, note that embedded video data is being turned over too. That most probably allows a link between the viewer's ip adress and the site where the video was embedded.
C&L needs a total rethink on their website. Too many immature, self-centered, self-absorbed idiots with their own personal ax to grind. Just grow the hell up already! You think you are going to get more people sympathetic to your cause with this attitude? It turns people off. C&L must pay some of these people to make vitriolic comments all day instead of dealing with the substance and being constructive . This is why Dems lose election after election with this group. Childish nonsense.
CEO,citizens,eyes,open @ 81:
I did a little of both. Dude, we watched this AT CHURCH. We all laughed but it is also pretty frightening for some. A few people used to believe in these guys and are feeling really duped, used and stupid. We watched this together as part of their 'holy roller rehab' because we all thought a good reminder of what is out there waiting to prey on those who do not think for themselves is always a wise move. I think stuff like this should be required viewing for all.
Unfortunately these criminals are the first ones that come to mind when the average American thinks about "evangelicals".
I guess will have to wait another century before the fairy tales stop.
That is if we make it to the 22nd.
jimijazz @ 86:
I'm rubber, you're glue...what ever you say, bounces off me, and sticks to you.
X Inifinity!!!!
NYAAAAAAAH!
Ugh. I am SO sick of hearing about Jesus! I'm fed up with all this Christian crap in America. The Bible is fiction! As is the Koran.
Is there a God? I don't know. But I know religion is a bunch of human made crap and BS! Can't we have a president who doesn't bring up Jesus? Keep religion and politics seperate. No more talk about JESUS! Enough!! Shut up you Muslim and Christian nutcases!
Die hard religious people are some of the most hateful and intolerant jerks on the planet! It's BS! Scientology is a work of fiction just like all other religions! A man can't rise from the dead or walk on water! Thetans are not real! Fiction!!! Nothing more.
And to think these Jesus freaks are going to decide who is president again. Darwin help us all.
"Jesus Christ, what maroons!!!"
Jesus Christ.
I'm still gonna vote for Obama, but, Holy Christ on a cracker, hearing him say that "kneeling before a cross" crap made me want to puke and vote for Nader out of spite.
PRAISE BOB!!!
.
What form of government selects their leaders based on religious qualifications...?
.
92 samdog Says: I’m still gonna vote for Obama, but, Holy Christ on a cracker, hearing him say that “kneeling before a cross” crap made me want to puke and vote for Nader out of spittle.
There I fixed it for you.
If this is a church or religious group then why did they have him only a shade darker than their white background? I would have thought God would want a fair representation of a man for what he actually is and not trying to pass off for what you aren't? Even if done in some sort of artistic representation, he is still darker than his white shirt. This ad is supposed to set the record straight on some of the false rumors yet they themselves represent him as something he is not? It seems a little hypocritical.
I don't know why, but looking at that blanched out picture brought this to mind
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NHywdqH3F6Y
Embittered & Anti-Republicrat - Max-Hussein-1 @ 94:
Uhhh... The Iranians? The Taliban? I know! The VATICAN!!! Oh, yeah, and the usa.
Obama is just another Christian fascist, a traitor.
I'm an evangelical, born-again Christian. What does that mean? It means that,as a seeker of truth, I recognize I was created by a loving, perfect, just God. It means I worship Jesus who offers eternal life to ANYONE who comes humbly to him and wants to follow him. And it means if I truly want to follow him, I will love others more than myself. In loving others, I seek to serve their needs, comfort them in their pain, and speak truthfully to them. I see value in ALL human beings regardless of age, race, social status, or any other label you want to apply.
The descriptions I see here don't descibe the Christianity I follow. While I believe God created the universe, I truly don't have any idea exactly how old it is. And yes, I believe He created it in six days, just as He said (why would I bother following a God who COULDN'T do that?). I don't believe these things simply because I was raised that way. I've raised doubts and questions, but I always sought to discover the truth. I've never been afraid to look at the other point of view, examine it, weigh it, and discover if it has validity. Truth is truth and it will stand on its own, regardless of whether or not I believe it to be so. So what's my point? I guess I'd like to ask you to examine the claims of Christianity with the intention of discovering the TRUTH, not just what you think it might be. You might be surprised to discover what Chistianity really is, instead of the distorted, caricature it is to some. I ask this of you humbly, with the hopes some of you will discover something you never imagined.
Fredric L. Rice @ 99:
Funny that's what they call him over at Free Republic.
Does anyone else hear that noise?
It's the sound of the religious right screaming with rage when they see this ad.
bluedemon @ 7:
Well, what you say is true but honestly, this is a smaller part of "Christians" comparatively. The difference is that they are louder due to Rove/idiot-king/neocon agenda.
Mainline Protestants are far more tolerant on the whole.
Also, in the past the church/pastors etc were far more engaged and active in social justice issues. It was black and white protestant and catholic churches that worked on civil rights and anti-war activism- and it is often the churches who send people out to disaster areas, are and work with NGO's, provide food pantries, staff shelters hospices and work with or start Aids centers.
Other religions do as well of course, and sure there are lots of individuals and some congregations who are more closed and judging.
Oddly in Catholicism nuns seem to have more leeway for liberality than you might imagine. Perhaps it is because they seem to have no power yet they do some very interesting social, spiritual and even artistic work and providing access to others to learn via workshops etc.
The nuns I have met have been VERY "out there" (which isn't to say there aren't those others we think of when we hear the word "nun."
I went to seminary for quite a few years and know many pastors and spiritual directors etc. Many of them are way liberal and their congregations are either very liberal or working their way into that through activism and education.
I go to church now and then and the rector/pastor is gay, openly living with his partner. about 1/4 to 1/3 of the congregation is gay. There is a good mix of old blue hairs, young, kids, gay, straight, black, white, Asian and Latino. It is an Episcopal church that has been getting larger due to its work and volunteerism with "the least of these."
Anyway, I'm not sure how I feel about the whole thing with Obama, separation of church and state etc. I was certainly freaked out when the idiot-king started it. yccchhhh.
I'm way more concerned on the Fisa crap. Gotta pick our battles I guess.
I think we need a march on Washington on this, like in the old days.
sigh.
I want to see a million people in the mall protesting again, one more time.
;-/
"All the evangelical base belong to us."
Should read:
All the evangelical base are belong to us.
Yeah, puke out on the christ crap! Is jeebus running for president? No, I didn't think so, so WTF??!!! Put the jeebus back in that little vacuum distillation unit inside your tiny, “spiritually” inebriated and paranoid little neurotic mind and get it THE FUCK out of our political discourse, thanks.
I'm here all week ladies and gentlemen!
I heard Obama talk about faith in this clip. He doesn't talk about a crazy god that wants you to be rich, and condemn others.
I am an atheist myself. Yet I do believe in a power outside of me, but it isn't "god". To think you are "the centre of the universe", is just as crazy as the false Jesus lovers (but that is only my opinion). The power of the universe is my "god". Kind of like 'the force', in Star Wars. Believe me, it's way way more powerful than me. I think that's what beckons a lot of people, whatever they chose to call it; god or otherwise; not important. If they do call it god, I don't have a problem with that. Just don't go all crazy like these phony Christians have been doing. Those are the ones bu$h supports, and only for votes.
Mary @ 4:
Good question.
More distressing, why is it that whenever he supports conservatives- Again and again and again- it's because he's "Being bipartisan"
And why is it that whenever conservatives endorse him- AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN- he's just "Reaching across the aisle?"
What would it take for you people to get it through your skulls that this man only cares about winning?
Cal @ 101:
Does anybody else see this cognitive dysfunction?
It's the sound of a petulant child throwing out the "Republican card"- the Democrat equivalent of "WELL YOU'RE A POOPY-HEAD"- every time somebody points out anything they don't like.
And a lot of people are doing it. More than a little disturbing.
I understand not wanting god in politics. I don't like it either, because it always gets hijacked by these crazy Ted Haggard types. To deny that a lot of Americans are believers though, is silly. It is important to them. As long as religion doesn't set policy, and isn't shoved down my thoat, I don't have a big problem with it. Several of my friends are religious (and I like them), but they never talk about it. It should be a personal thing. Hey, whatever gets you through the day (just don't be one of the crazies!!!).
94 Embittered & Anti-Republicrat - Max-Hussein-1 Says: .
What form of government selects their leaders based on religious qualifications…?
=====================================
Actually, many many many. It's just not always overtly. Most people on this planet do have some religious affiliation. Get used to it.
Edwin Hussein @ 108:
Having any kind of faith is not the problem. The problem is when they push themselves into a political agenda. But you knew that.
basically folks
IF YOU WANT MORE of THE MC same
4 more yeaers of F up BUSH rule....
as he watchs the ECONOMY be destroyed..
YOU dont re-hire the people that broke it.........
Just for those who don't know the passage, Matthew 25 is the one that ends with Jesus saying "Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me."
These are people who believe that it is a Christian duty to feed the homeless, visit the sick and imprisoned etc. They are the sort of people that Obama was familiar with in his early community organizer days.
I gave up on the Church a long time ago, and am a Deist, not a Christian, but I think it is worth listening to what people have to say, rather than just decide that you know who they are because of some label they wear.
Their commercial says the same thing.
Just my 2 bits. Don't believe me. Listen for yourself.
109 mudshark Says:
Yes mudshark, I do know that. See earlier posts on this thread. We are in agreement.
Edwin Hussein @ 112:
Hi Edwin, how are you doing today. I apologize if I came off as indignant back there. I read all the previous post of yours( for a few days now) and am in complete agreement. have a nice weekend Edwin.
113 mudshark Says: Edwin Hussein @ 112:
109 mudshark Says:
Yes mudshark, I do know that. See earlier posts on this thread. We are in agreement.
Hi Edwin, how are you doing today. I apologize if I came off as indignant back there. I read all the previous post of yours( for a few days now) and am in complete agreement. have a nice weekend Edwin.
================================
mudshark, I didn't take it that way at all. I'm not that thin skinned. The world is made up of a very diverse group of people. We have to learn to accept that. Living in Korea, I am faced with it every day. They're way different than North Americans, but not bad people, or worng; it's how they do things. I have to try to understand them. (I'm way way way in the minority here.)
It's easy to fall into the trap of thinking people that are different from you, are stupid. They're not. I fear this is what has been sold to the American people with Muslims. I read a comment on YouTube categorically stating "all Muslims are stupid." We shouldn't start thinking this about all Christians, should we?
What I do despise is LIARS. (And overblown egos-- cause of most of the world's troubles, if you ask me.)
Jim Burrows @ 111:
And people wonder why I tend to like Deists.
Since the ad is from a christian PAC I figured I put a link to a secular PAC.
http://www.secular.org/index.html
btw that Obama ad was creepy as all heck. using very religious language is a sure way to turn non-religous people off. I am skeptical of this sort of strategy. Obama even warned progressives about it. I wish Obama would play to his base more instead of alientating some of them (us). Note that this is not the first time Obama and his supporters/advocates have played the religion card. Did anyone else catch that Kansas ad, "Obama, Commintted Christian" with him standing at the altar? Again, a real turn off for non-religious folk.
Good day.
kyra03 @ 116:
Atheists make up what 3% of the American population?
non-religious folk make up 10-25% of the population depending on location and the poll
darn can't edit:
1) non-religion is the fastest growing "religion"
2) the non-religious folk make up the second largest "religious" voting block after christians...more than jews, more than all the others combined
politicians are foolish to ignore this segment of the population and it's downright dangerous to outwardly show contempt for them
Jim Burrows @ 111:
Here, here.
Jay @ 68:
Maher's line is great, but not really applicable here. No one's trying to get you to believe in anything (other than hopefully you'll believe it's a great idea to vote for Obama in November LOL). This is an advertisement by believers and aimed at believers. It acknowledges something that often escapes us on the left - there is a difference among the religious, differences between believers, evangelicals, and fundamentalists. And not all of them are a lost cause for the Democratic party. In fact, there are a number of religious believers that find the far-right shenanigans offensive. Why not appeal to them and give them a reason to come back to the Democratic party?
kyra03 @ 118:
agnostics are not the same as atheists nor are non Church attending theists.
It's interesting to read the rhetoric on this. I am a progressive democrat AND an evangelical Christian (one of the "they" that many of you refer to). If you look objectively at what some of you have written, it is as mean-spirited and uber-inclusive regarding another group of people as some of the right-wingnuts spew out.
Come on, people. You are not being asked to convert to anything except tolerance. I don't agree with all progressives on all areas of politics. You don't have to take on my religious views. But please don't put me in a subclass, as if I am less intelligent than you. That's how this discussion comes across. Hardly inviting to a person fed up with the right-wing scene and looking to perhaps interface with some progressives......
The Viscount @ 12:
Sorry, too late. We are way past the point of no return. The U.S. needs to complete the final stage of its total collapse into a corporate fascist state in order for these Iron Age superstition-believing religionists, the 30% of the hard core ReThuglican base (mostly the same people) and the majority of uneducated, complacent and uncaring reality TV watchers to finally wake up, take to the streets, replace all of the politicians, restore the Constitution, reclaim our Civil Liberties and in general become America once again. Write in vote for Dennis Kucinich as a moral statement, then get prepared to emerge for the next revolution after McCain's policies finish off what's left of the memory of what a proud nation we used to be. This is our last hope to salvage America. American Revolution II.
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