Top McCain Econ Adviser: "We have sort of become a nation of whiners..."
In an interview with the Washington Times, top McCain economic adviser Phil Gramm (yes, that Phil Gramm) has some comforting words for the millions of Americans struggling to pay their bills.
"You've heard of mental depression; this is a mental recession," he said, noting that growth has held up at about 1 percent despite all the publicity over losing jobs to India, China, illegal immigration, housing and credit problems and record oil prices. "We may have a recession; we haven't had one yet."
"We have sort of become a nation of whiners," he said. "You just hear this constant whining, complaining about a loss of competitiveness, America in decline" despite a major export boom that is the primary reason that growth continues in the economy, he said.
So after eight years of disastrous Republican policies, all the McCain campaign has to offer is a blame-the-victim, suck-it-up attack on average Americans. I'm sure a continuation of George Bush's tax cuts -- ya know, the ones that used to offend McCain's conscience -- will get us back on the right track. Then we can all stop "whining" about losing our homes and altering our lifestyles. Christy at FDL has more...
UPDATE: (Nicole) McCain's been caught on tape saying that recession is a "psychological problem" too. I tell you, McCain's surrogates sure are on the pulse of America now, aren't they? (/snark) Let's recap:
* Charlie Black says that another terrorist attack would be a "big advantage" for McCain;
* Phil Gramm lectures us that our economic problems are mental and we're just a nation of whiner;
* Carly Fiorina lies about Barack Obama's (D) record and then shows her complete cluelessness about McCain's own record on women's issues;
* Rudy Giuliani says Obama is "capturing" an "anti-American feeling" that exists in Europe, where Obama is "popular." (Links courtesy of The Political Base) and just yesterday, Gramm trashed the middle class on Kudlow:
And yet, Obama is supposed to be the "elitist?
UPDATE II: Obama responds: "Let's be clear. This economic turndown is not in your head; America already has one Dr. Phil"
McCain camp initially stood by the remarks. Now they don't.
Kos: "Clinging" versus "whining". Guess which one makes big news, and which one doesn't.
UPDATE III: Too good to pass up:
Shorter Phil Gramm: "Let them eat McCain!"
Turtle head?
I thought we were a nation of criminals...with a small and vocal group 'whining' for accountability.
Let's see here. Take way Gramm's house(s), his job, his bank account and go make him buy a few tanks of gas and take a vacation with his credit cards maxed out and put his kids (probably illegitimate) in collage in September. He would whine a little too. In fact he would probably be very bitter.
Gramm translated: Fuck all of them
Screw them all!
"despite a major export boom"
A major export boom in what? Weapons? Because that is about all that America manufactures these days that the rest of the world wants to buy. Everything else, for the most part is imported.
Well there is a fair amount of whining from just about everyone about something.
You haven't even begun to hear whining yet. We will be deep in recession by Sept.
Phil Gramm, lobbyist, deregulator, enemy of the working Americans he used to represent.
A perfect fit for McCain!
Thanks Phil, w/ friends and advisers like you the McCain campaign can fold up and go home early.
"How many people poorer than you have hired you?"
Well since most of us work for COMPANIES, I would expect any company I work for to have more money. Why that means we should give more money to the CEO's etc of those companies, instead of giving me a tax break I don't know. Or more money to the corporations for that matter. No matter how many tax breaks you give me, I'm pretty sure the company the company with continue to have many many times more revenue than my income.
Joe O. @ 7:
Cigarettes to Iran.
Poorer people hire richer people ALL the time.
Do you make more than your dentist?
Do you make more than your doctor?
Do you make more than your lawyer?
I rest my case.
Phil Gramm does not have a clue.
It just really amazes me when these rich good for nothing public leaches try to pooh pooh the hardships of normal people. Give me five minutes with one of these fuckers with the knowledge of no repercussions. (With all due respect to Nicolle and Jeffrey Feldman)
Just look at those two smug, elite, OLD bastards.
Is Phil Gramm whining?
Another GOP hypocrite.
--------
Phil Gramm to the American middle class:
"Yes, I want fries with that".
I just can't help that wonder why I can't afford a house when I earn as much if not more than my parents did (after inflation).
They bought a house in '72 for 20k (roughly) and now that same house is worth 400k. Meanwhile I estimate that I earn about 20% more than they did after inflation and yet I'm still stuck in an apartment because the monthly mortgage payments for a 400k house are way beyond my means.
Joe O. @ 7:
Whatever we do export is doing well because the dollar is worth nothing. That is the only reason exports are doing well. For him to say that is remarkable.
yup......bush didn't raise taxes so instead we borrowed the money/sold treasury bills to japan,china,india and the u.k. to name a few....guess who's going to pay loans
currently inflation is at 4.5% with economic growth at 2.5%
right now people are losing their homes,jobs and some filing bankruptcy and "its mental" i have an opinion about who is mental
7 Joe O. Says: “despite a major export boom”
A major export boom in what? Weapons? Because that is about all that America manufactures these days that the rest of the world wants to buy. Everything else, for the most part is imported.
don't forget cigarettes!
The middle class in the US is DEAD.
Captain Obama’s Bitter Half Husein Kangaroo @ 4:
You forgot this one, take away his high end FREE government health insurance.
casper46 @ 13:
String beans to Utah? Oh wait...that was an old Zappa song and has nothing to do whatsoever with anything.
Carry on.
18 displssd Says: I just can’t help that wonder why I can’t afford a house when I earn as much if not more than my parents did (after inflation).
They bought a house in ‘72 for 20k (roughly) and now that same house is worth 400k. Meanwhile I estimate that I earn about 20% more than they did after inflation and yet I’m still stuck in an apartment because the monthly mortgage payments for a 400k house are way beyond my means.
Because you make 20% more than your parents did, yet a comparable house is 20X more expensive now.
Joe O. @ 7:
Jobs to India.
Freedom to Iraqistan.
aquarius2 @ 23:
yeah you know that "social medicine" healthcare plan the plan mccain has had his entire life....good enough for him but not us....medical bills are bankrupting people....cost increase per yr. about 10% why paying
pool is too small and people using healthcare system and unable/not paying
Ok guys at C&L, I'm just gonna keep on posting this until you post a thread on the media's horrendous coverage of these stories:
[And we'll keep taking them down, for being off topic and spam. You've earned yourself a spot in auto-moderation, BTM. Deleted. Comment spamming-Sitemonitor]
Gramm is so bright that he killed federal funding for the LHC in Texas because HE could not justify the expenditure.
http://lhc.web.cern.ch/lhc/
Another Texas shit-bird waaaay out of his league.
BTW the biggest whiners are the wealthy that want taxpayers to bail them out whenever they f%$@ up.
Flim-Flam Gramm........go back to Texas you con artist.
"And yet, Obama is supposed to be the “elitist?"
They both are.
Sad to say one of U.S. biggest export is porn. There has been a "boom" because other countries middle classes are growing and want porn.
Come to think of it...
President Bush's economic stimulus plan which involved sending cheques of up to US$1,200 to every taxpayer has provided a boom to the online porn industry, according to market research.
http://www.itnews.com.au/News/79785,us-rebate-cheques-spent-on-porn.aspx
29 Nada Says: “And yet, Obama is supposed to be the “elitist?”
They both are.
That's
bullshit.oops, "bullshit" was supposed to be bold
Phil Gramm, the definition of corruption, will be worth 10 electoral votes to Obama.
Nada @ 29:
There is a distinction: Obama is elite, not elitist, meaning he is of the best, akin to aristocratic. Elitist is more akin to snobby, and like snobby, it is usually people who are not the best but only have an inflated view of themselves.
(hussien)moondancer @ 33:
I agree. Keep trotting this corrupt moron out there.
A Freebee
My Mother always told me when someone does something nice for you thank them. Today, I want to thank Phil Gramm. It was nice of him to show the American people just how out of touch John McSame is.
I notice CNN did not run this story. I could of missed it, but I don't think so. I did see CNN's best in the business commenting on Jessie Jackson's comments. Which makes CNN selective, bias or not as thorough as they often claim.
Joseph
Nada @ 29:
you may be right......i'm going to take a wild guess and say mccain is much deeper/more established as an elitist than obama....not that possesions fully define but 8 homes,private plane..huge income(wife)
i would rather get obama now before he is further exposed to washington lobbyists/deals...mccain has been their a long time..he has been in the government system his entire life....governmental elitist
Re: Obama has captured an anti-American feeling that exists in Europe (a la, Rudy) - Rudy doesn't know shit from shinola.
I was just in Spain, speaking to friends of ours, who told us all the European nations are keenly interested in the American Presidential election. They despise George Bush and his administration, and are really hoping Obama wins. There is no "anti-American" feeling, but there is definitely an anti-George Bush feeling and anyone else associated with him - in this case, John McCain.
Rudy, if you don't know what you're talking about, it's time to shut yer piehole.
It's unfortunate for what little is left of the middle class in having to read remarks like this from intellectual morons like Phil Gramm. No doubt the man does feel for the little guy having to survive on canned Chef Boyardee while he enjoys a glass of fine wine with his porter house steak.
This is not just a Republican problem, but a Democratic problem as well. The corrupt policy and banking practices that are coming home to roost are imbedded in both parties as niether party gave a hill of beans as to what was happening on their watch. If they did, we wouldn't be looking for a bailout from the tax payer. Both parties were more interested in lining their pockets with gifts from the K Street lobbyists while those on Wall Street literally were laughing all of the way to the bank when they deposited thier millions in end of year bonuses.
For the sake of our country, stop the Fed from increasing its opaque power to regulate and control our economy. They have made a botched job of it, and show no signs of improvement beyond serving the needs of their special interests and the wealthy elite. Our security is in checks and balances, review and transparency, fair discussion and disclosure. The would-be wizards and sorcerer's apprentices of the Fed are none of these.
So Phil, go fuck yourself along with the rest of your bretherin that looked the other way or at the least, may you choke on that stake with no one around to do the Heimlich maneuver.
Today the great Hank " I'm full of shit " Paulson had the audacity to suggest that the Federal Reserve have even greater controll over the economy as if they haven't fucked it up enough, but better yet, they want the middle class to bail out the banks and brokerage firms after they raped the system of every dollar they could.
Yeah, I'm whining and for good reason you assholes one and all.
Looks like whine is the new malaise. To paraphrase McSame, the republican party is a disgrace.
How convenient! We have the the man behind Enron (Gramm) advising the Keating 5 culprit (McSame).
MSM will give the "maverick" another pass on this one.
Joseph @ 36:
See my post @28.
And media has been defending McGrampa all day. Pretty sickening and obvious. If anyone at this point "thinks" the media is favoring Obama, they are delusional, stupid, or both.
I wonder if Faux News will flash these titles across the bottom of the screen?
"Does Phil Gramm Hate America?"
"Elitist Former Texas Senator: U.S. a Nation of Whiners"
"Gramm Tells Americans Facing Foreclosure to Shut Up and Take It"
Yet again, C&L fails basic economics. I come to this site as a liberal democrat and diehard obama supporter (organizing Democrats Abroad, thank you very much) looking for good ideas, but instead I find the OLD POLITICS OF NONSENSE.
C&L highlights some article where McCain makes a statement that would be seen as bold if made by obama or picks is nose or whatever, and then legions of idiots pile on with gratuitous and empty comments.
What irks me is that some of you claim to support obama.
I'm hardly young or naive, but don't some of you idiots get it? ENOUGH WITH THE FOOTBALL GAME VERSIONS OF POLITICS! This is what got us into this mess in the first place! Too many of you are the mirror image of the swiftboaters and right wing liethrowers.
It so irks me to defend mccain, but a GOOD IDEA IS A GOOD IDEA NO MATTER WHO SAYS IT AND WHERE IT COMES FROM.
1. Social Secuirty IS in trouble. Maybe privatization (McCain's solution) is not the best answer. In fact, privatization is a horrible answer. But, far from arguing the economics of that, in that thread so many of you refused to even accept the premise that social security is broken and instead trotted out all sorts of stuff that was just factually wrong and/or based in "economics" that made creationism nobel-worthy.
2. The economic situation IS relatively minor. yes, the dollar is in trouble and a few people have lost their houses - but look around and actually read some statistics. The people who are losing their houses are by in large not going homeless - their $7000 monthly mortages which they tried to afford on $90000 combined salaries or $3500 monthly mortgages which they tried to afford on $50000 combined salaries are turning into $1000-$2000 monthly rent bills. This is called a normal market correction. Why should those of us who bothered to do even the most basic math when entering the most significant financial transaction of our adult lives have to pay to clean up after those who didn't when those who didn't aren't dying -they're simply being directed into living in ways consistent with their ends.
So.. the value of YOUR house went down 30%? This is the same house that went up for 10% for 7 years in a row for a compounded increase of over 100%? Why should we feel sorry for you, again, especially when now the mess that you homeowners created will ironically lower the dollar further thus allowing foreigners to come in and rescue you partially?
The slumping dollar, as any economist will tell you (and believe me, this pains me as I live in England and get paid in dollars) is probably what america needs right now - it discourages wanton consumption (something that americans have indulged in since about 1995) while encourages reapproachment with the world and its markets - like obama said - learning a language now is a good thing. don't worry - our economic fundamentals are sound - much more so than europe in many ways and certainly more fundamentally sound than, say, russia or china whose economies are based on exploiting "natural" resources - oil and unenlightened labor. Neither of those are harbingers of long-term success.
people are not in any largescale way starving in america. access to all the basic necessities of life, with the exception of reasonably priced health care, is available to all. houses are cheap by, say, european standards, as are salaries and taxes, food and fuel. consumer goods and food are slightly more expensive than they used to be, but most families simply have to cut back a bit on discretionary spending to afford them. times will be tough, relatively speaking, yes, but this isn't a recession, this isn't a depression, and so forth. Yes, paying a hundred bucks for gas is bad, and had some of you had the balls to tout the sensible but politically suicideal idea that 20 years ago that I was pushing that was to raise the tax on fuel by 7% a year in per year, the medicine wouldn't be as harsh as it seems today, but, really - mccain's description is more or less spot on.
casper46 @ 42:
oh that's right "Enron Loophole".......the unfair advantage
Add Social Security is a disgrace and he wins the elitist contest.
“Bush: “Goodbye from the World’s Biggest Polluter” “
The American leader, who has been condemned throughout his presidency for failing to tackle climate change, ended a private meeting with the words: “Goodbye from the world’s biggest polluter.”
He then punched the air while grinning widely, as the rest of those present including Gordon Brown and Nicolas Sarkozy looked on in shock.”
Kucinich is reading an impeachment resolution for this moron on C-Span.
whining american @ 45:
I listened to a few minutes of InSean Vannity today on Sirius and he was actually defending Gramm. I kid you not.
Only us working people who are sufffering are having a mental breaK down. Don't forget that Gramm also receives socialized medicine, as an EX senator.
Sure, tell the masses that voted for you republicans, "trust us, don't ask questions and we'll take care, turn over your civil rights to us and we'll protect you, don't ask questions and we'll make your house value go up and your 401K grow". Things turn and they whine.. Surprise.
miss skeptic @ 39:
Bravo! Great point, Repugs are adept at creating a negative image such as Europeans being anti-republican rather than pro-American.
Europe, and for that matter, the rest of the free world, perform better when the American economy is strong and the dollar can hold its own.
Repug "leadership" has sold the American future out to trickle-down economics, a true economic disaster.
The same Phil Gramm that authored the "Enron Loophole".
http://www.baltimorechronicle.com/2008/051908Leopold.shtml
MSM: "But, but, but JESSE JACKSON said a bad thing (off mike) bleat, bleat bleat!!!"
McCain campaign originally stood by Gramm’s comments.
[...]
...as Huffington Post’s Sam Stein reports, the McCain campaign originally had a different response, in which a campaign official told Politico that Gramm was “simply saying that we are laying out the economic plan this week”:
But in an initial statement published by Politico and then, seemingly, removed from its site, a McCain campaign aide actually stood by Gramm’s remarks, saying the interview as a whole was merely meant as a preview of the Senator’s economic agenda.
“Mr. Gramm was simply saying that we are laying out the economic plan this week,” the piece quoted a “McCain official” as saying. “The plan is comprehensive, providing immediate near-term relief for Americans hurting today as well as longer-term solutions to get our economy back on track, secure our energy future and deliver jobs, prosperity and opportunity for the next generation. We’re laying out that plan this week with an emphasis on the critical importance of job creation, and it’s been a great success so far.”
[...]
Boy I sure hope really old, jowl laden, rich, white men continue to run this country, don't you?
larry @ 46.....What planet are you living on? " The economic situation IS relatively minor". Really?!?! What do you call 540 trillion of worthless deriviatives friend that have no mark to market value? What do you call it when forclosures and bankruptcies keep breaking new records each month? What do you call it when more and more of your neighbors are having to resort to living in tent cities becasue they lost their home, which they lost when their job was outsourced to Asia?
people not starving in America?!?! Gee, I kept wondering why all those people are standing in line at food banks and soup kitchens. You may be being paid in dollars while working in Europe, but you just might want to take a trip back home and get a dose of reality rather than keeping your head in the clouds. And by the way, that dollar that you seem to so highly value, isn't worth the fiat paper it is printed on. You might want to invest some of those worthless dollars in real money like gold and silver.
Larry Lessig @ 47:
Thank You Phil Gramm's Cousin
Joseph
He's not wearing a flag pin .............. I can't listen to people who hate america talk like that .............
Joseph @ 59:
Larry just racked up 155 McGrampa points.
The only reason we aren't in a recession is that prices are rising faster than we can slow down our spending.
Dr. Hussein Matt @ 56:
Sounds like 4 more years of trickle down economics to me..........this is why other than the wealthiest 1%, the fastest growing economic class is the very poor.
More cardboard housing and longer lines at the soup kitchen will be our future.
Bwahahahaha! McClueless just threw Gramm under the bus. "Phil Gramm doesn't speak for me. I speak for myself".
Ah, so we're a nation of whiners, eh? Fuck McPapen and his elitism, may they rot in Hell. This sort of attitude was condemned by Church doctrine for centuries (that doctrine was seldom followed, but it was there.) McPapen is no Christian, and with an attitude like this, he's barely even human.
Hi Joseph, You have no answer, so you insult. This is the problem with C&L. You disagree with me, so rather than actually say something sensible, you sling mud. People like you make me sick.
Quoted from Gramm.....“You’ve heard of mental depression; this is a mental recession,” he said, noting that growth has held up at about 1 percent despite all the publicity over losing jobs to India, China, illegal immigration, housing and credit problems and record oil prices. “We may have a recession; we haven’t had one yet.”
WOW! growth of a whopping 1%. Imagine that when just a couple of years ago we were pushing 5%. How many trillions have been lost in the stock market? Phil Gramm is a fucking elitist fool who knows where his bread is buttered. What's that UBS? You sau you paid him for consulting fees?
We may have a recession? Jackass. We've been in one since the end of 2007. The only problem is that the bought and paid for MSM would rather keep putting lipstick on the pig and rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. Don't look at the man behind the curtin. Yeah, life is just wonderful.
Larry Lessig @ 66:
ROFL. Hi kettle!!
Dr Hussein Matt: I'm a local organizer for Democrats aborad and I lecture in regulatory economics at a major university in England. You'll recognize my flat because it's the one with the Obama sign in the window - IN ENGLAND. Or am I really McCain Part II because I don't make witty and insightful comments based on bodily function and 3rd-grade name calling?
It sounds like the Republicans are saying Americans are bitter or something.
Ah, Phil "Clinton's economic plan will bring about a DEPRESSION" Gramm.
I wonder what ol' Dickie Flatt has to say about the economy.
Larry Lessig Says: Hi Joseph, You have no answer, so you insult. This is the problem with C&L. You disagree with me, so rather than actually say something sensible, you sling mud. People like you make me sick.
Larry....people like you should get your head out of your ass. The faster the Federal Reserve is taken down and replaced with what the Constitution called for: A US Treasury banking system, with dollars backed by something of value like gold and silver the faster this country will return to its former greatness.
Hussein Matt: see, I can call you a moron, because after 2 comments to me you have shown rather conclusively that you are just that. You called me "kettle" as if I was doing the same thing that joseph did - after posting a screen-length article. Nobody is as blind as those who refuse to see.
This Phil Gramm SOB should STFU, he is the one that helped bring us Eron and the Commodities disaster we are in now. Most of the American people are idiots and they will bring us all down with them.
Larry Lessig @ 69:
Look at your post at #47..........3rd grade name calling indeed.
I know I'm a wino
What is you?
Maybe Americans don't like have class warefare declared on them by the elites who all vote republian.
Woopsie
warfare.
Larry Lessig @ 69:
I'm sure you are. I'm batman.
Republicans only understand, sadly, voodoo economics. The cannibalization of something healthy to overfeed the greed of blindly adherent party supporters. McCain's no different. He has no clue about how to fix one dang thing. Don't like the Iraq war? We'll stay there 100 years! Don't like social security? We'll privatize it, despite the fact that you've paid into for thirty, or fifty, years. And if you dare to voice an opposing view? Well, you're a whiner and a mental case. Pack it in, old man. You're the nutty whiner.
Oh, and social security, it's not in trouble
Unless you're trying to increase the investment agent business
While we're in an unstable market.
What exactly is the difference between a bear and a bull market?
Personally I wouldn't want to be anywhere near either.
Now Medicaid, that's on life support.
Larry Lessig @ 72:
I can call you a moron, because after 1 comment to me you have shown rather conclusively that you are just that.
77 Dr. Hussein Matt Says: Larry Lessig @ 69:
Dr Hussein Matt: I’m a local organizer for Democrats aborad and I lecture in regulatory economics at a major university in England. You’ll recognize my flat because it’s the one with the Obama sign in the window - IN ENGLAND. Or am I really McCain Part II because I don’t make witty and insightful comments based on bodily function and 3rd-grade name calling?
I’m sure you are. I’m batman.
_________________________________________________________
Where does he get all those wonderful toys?
Oh, sorry I meant Batwoman.
Larry Lessig @ 69:
Dr Hussein Matt: I’m a local organizer for Democrats aborad and I lecture in regulatory economics at a major university in England.
Probably brought up attending the John Maynard Keynes school of economics. And you actually have an employer that pays you for these thoughts? What a waste of their money indeed.
OK guys, let's take it down a notch. Enough personal bashing for one thread.
ysbaddaden @ 81:
From Robin. He's a bit, well, how you would say..."alternative".
....but, there's nothing wrong with that.
dear Matt: we're at an impasse. I don't particularly want to disclose who I am personally, but I will happily post photos of my place so that you can see exactly where I am and what i say is true.
Radically Moderate: my post 47 contained several paragraphs of actual content. While it was written very very quickly in a stream of consciousness fashion there's actual stuff there, not just "ha ha McCain is old", or, even worse, the creationist idiocy of the "abolish the federal reserve let's go back to the gold standard" guy who popped up in this thread. If you people can't see that "let's go back the gold standard" is beyond the pale of intelligent discussion and that posts about "turtle heads" and wink-wink jokes about gramm's children being illegitimate are counterproductive, then really, i feel sorry for you.
Additionally, there's a difference between positive and normative economics.
Positive is pure theory, and could be described as Ivory-tower
Normative is once you try to apply the theories you try to prism them through your own norms and mores so the theories one advances becomes suspect
I'm positive.
Pretty easy for a fucking millionaire to bitch about folks whining as he sits in the lap of luxury. Fucking prick.
Larry Lessig @ 69:
I find that near impossiable to believe, considering your accusations of peoples believe on social security, just about everybody I've seen on this site would says it's broken. Also the debt lost from the sub=prime as well as the global effect on the US with it trying to devalue it's dollar to lessen it relative debt is a one way direction with no way out. americans have revelled in wanton consumption well before 1995 as well. Then you go on to compare the failing US economy to Europe, that's fairly laughable given the shift to the Euro which will likely result in it becoming the foreign reserve currency, and then to top it off "exploiting “natural” resources" & unenlightened ...... oil and sweat shops ring a bell, what is the US economy based on ..... also bought shares in GM or Ford lately ?
You need to have a chat to any libertarian at all, or someone who understands economics ......
Which uni do you lecture at ? ........
This prick Gramm never learned the first fucking fundamental rule about keeping a fucking economy healthy. Money is like manure. It doesn't do any goddamn good unless it is spread around.
84 Larry Lessig
I feel sorry for you.
This site is for the knowledgeable and for sport.
Funny how you claim to be teaching in England preaching about the weakening dollar being a good thing, when in England they've been keeping their pound at an unnatural high since at least Margaret Thatcher.
Why our foreign debt holders don't won't our dollar so weak we can't pay them back, and additionally some like China and Saudi Arabia are selling their dollars for Euros.
A weak dollar ideally means we export more, but that's not bloody likely with the cost of shipping now due to the high expense of energy on both ends of the chain.
The only good thing I can see coming from this, is our National Parks and lodges might see an increase in business from those who can no longer afford international cruises and flights.
BigTallMatt @ 28:
Honestly, I'm not trying to spam here. I'm not meaning any disrespect. Just trying to shed some light on the MSM's complicity in trying to hide all these stories. And I don't see how it's off topic to be posting about the media's coverage of the very story that this thread is about.
[It's spamming. You post the same comment in many threads. Have a look at the comment policy. And by your reasoning, every comment could be 'on topic' in every thread-Sitemonitor]
Larry Lessig @ 84:
So, I have to assume that you do not realize that you are talking down to everyone on C&L rather than attempt to inform?
I suppose that works to intimidate freshmen but it fails to work outside of the world of achedemia......how very obtuse of you.
30 Nada Says: “And yet, Obama is supposed to be the “elitist?”
They both are.
Sen Obama talks down to black people - Rev Jessie Jackson
Larry Lessig @ 47:
Wow, now I know what Iraqis must have felt when listening to "Baghdad Bob."
Let me guess, you would say that catching malaria is actually a good thing, because you lose all that weight in just a week. I mean, people pay big cash and try for years to lose those stubborn pounds that malaria makes you shed. So what is the big fuss all about, right?
People like you are the reason why this country is in such utter deep shit; if you are truly an ex-pat (which I doubt, because you could not possibly say that the US economy is sounder than the EU if you have actually traveled and interacted in the financial markets) then you are the clear example of the moronic American... the one who is too much of a tool to be paid in dollars when working overseas (dumbass) while at the same time thinking he is the king of economic advice. No wonder American analyst get laughed at when I go overseas, seeesh...
The reason why America will be left behind is simple: people do not respect when idiots peddle sheer denial. There is nothing wrong with calling a spade a spade: the US is in a recession whether you like it or not. And making shit up like you just did, because some people would rather cut their left nut than point out the obvious wave of trouble we are and will be facing in the coming years.
If you are in denial of the problem, you will never be able to address it and solve/overcome it. Trying to pretend it is not there is simply not an option. And you post is an exercise in denial or just plain demagoguery.
The US economy is so sound compared to the EU, that a) the EU has long surpassed the PIB of the USA, and b) European companies are buying American business wholesale. In fact, take a flight in an European airline, like Lufthansa for example.... and then take the same intercontinental flight with let's say American Airlines.
Dr. Hussein Matt @ 80:
Larry Lessig made an excellent post and he knows 100x more about economics and economic policy than you ever will. This site isn't the place to come for economics and it's mainly because of assholes like you that have let the better posters know what a complete waste of time it is arguing with people who don't shit about the economy, but just get off on arguing and belittling.
Gramm is another arrogant, pompus, condescenting, delusional evangelical republican who would call their mothers, wives and daughters "whores" if they thought it would advance the REPUBLICAN MONARCHY. IF AMERICAN DOSEN'T WAKE UP AND VOTE IN OBAMA...AND VOTE OUT EVERY OTHER REPUBICAN IN ANY AND EVERY POSITION ON THE NOV 08 BALLOT our childrens FUTURES are GONE. McCain is as screwy with his Social Security comment as Grimm's comments on the "nation having a mental recession". Fortunately, a few honest republicans (per CNN) have acknowledge, and condenmend, McBush's warped, inaccurate comments about SS. WE NEED NEW BLOOD IN THE REPUBLICAN PARTY...we have to vote out the old school...across the board. GOD LOOK WHAT the Bush/Cheney/Rove/Grimm/McBush mentalilty has done to our democracy and our children's futures. Vote the republicans out of every office from the the local dog catcher to the White House ! The entire party is toxic...I'LL NEVER VOTE republican again ! ! !
Larry Lessig @ 85:
LOL. Yeah, posting a photo of "your flat" will earn you tons of credibility and will validate that you are a "Obama supporter". Hey, look, here's a photo of my window: http://img247.imageshack.us/img247/7594/2414513496b8c2165a1950fog8.jpg
And here is my girlfriend: http://img133.imageshack.us/img133/754/tebowsgirlbeach511b60cap2.jpg
Give me a second to find a photo of my Ferrari.....
I just read that Gramm is gone. Or from the official record I think. He'll be in the background.
princess @ 94:
Ah oh, princess' obsession....her sickness and obsession over me is rearing its ugly head. What's wrong princess, did you have a bad day at the links?
So we're a nation of whiners and the economy is doing just fine? Seems Gramm is living in the same fantasy-land bubble as Bushy.
Dr. Hussein Matt @ 96:
Hey, can we all come over to meet your girlfriend?
Additionally, the cost of energy, although we spend relatively less for than the rest of the world, is affecting the economy internationally.
America still consumes about 2/3 of the world's oil.
They've had demonstrations in Wales, France, Spain, Germany and Belgium over the cost of gas. There may be more I haven't heard about.
They're having food riots in Asia and Africa over the cost of wheat and rice. Besides the usual culprits of bad weather and crop yield, they too are planting more acreage of corn to get into the ethanol market.
Stock market scares are happening all over Europe and Asia, because of their close linkage to the American stockmarket.
They can't export as much due to the high cost of energy.
So with supply ships idling in harbors, an angry and increasingly unemployed populace all over the world, and skyrocketing prices for all commodities both durable and agricultural and increased belligerant nationalism we have all the elements that preceded World War II in place but a Hitler to spark it.
Radically Moderate @ 100:
Sure, we live here: http://img519.imageshack.us/img519/3397/mansionlarge51593fahz6.jpg
Dr. Hussein Matt @ 102:
Yawzah! So top that Larry!
They are trapped by their statistics. They have no idea how the average family tries to cope. They've never actually met a regular person, or been inside one of their homes. They travel mansion to mansion.
The damn Corporate Welfare Bums are always whining.
Billionaires and corporate theives telling their economic victims to shut up! Its a great republican economy! "Those tax cuts really did work!" These assholes will never get it, because this is what they wanted.
"Misery and starvation for 90% of the country? Hey whats the problem? My portfolio looks great!"
Old Louie XVI's Marie was tactful compared to these GOP psychopath's!
Larry Lessig @ 47:
Amen.
I would suggest that the organizers of C&L watch that J.Stewart-on-Crossfire YouTube at least once a month. When they stop finding it funny and start getting uncomfortable when Stewart begs "stop hurting America," I hope they act accordingly.
Can someone prod my memory?
Wasn't there a scandal where Gramm's wife was cashing in on legislation he was involved in passing? I can't recall all the details.
NoGWBpolicyleftinplace @ 106:
And look what happened to her and King Louie.
They didn't exactly enjoy having their sinuses cleared.
ysb @ 101,
We don't have a Hitler; but the one-two punch of president shit-for-brains, along with Satan's oldest son Cheney, might be even worse.
ysbaddaden @ 108:
Gramm was involved in some S&L scandals; not sure if the wifey was involved. I think his wife served on the board for Enron for one point too. My 'teh google' is broken.
JTM @ 107:
Please detail how C&L is "hurting America"
We'll wait for an answer.....
I love it when a$$holes like Phil Gramm, who have spent the bulk of their careers collecting their government financed paychecks, lecture the rest of us about the glory of "free-markets" and self-sufficiency.
These idiots are divorced from economic reality. It's easy to accuse others of "whining" when you've spent your life sucking on the taxpayer tit.
NoGWBpolicyleftinplace @ 110:
I dunno, looking at Bush and Dick salivating to get after a weak nation like Iran and making Iran seem more powerful than the old USSR...
NOW with David Bostochio (sp?) has had excellent shows on how the working poor often have to decide between medicine and food. Often they have to go hungry to afford their medication or feed their families today and risk severe illness.
By the time they show up in the emergency rooms it costs society more than preventative care.
And now smaller businesses are failing, and with the real -estate crisis more of the middle-class are experiencing these problems.
Sure we could argue the economy is strong, it's over 200 years old, but crisise can come along to possible overturn everything.
We probably barely escaped a communist or a fascist government taking place during the Great Depression.
And as any social expert would argue, if we want to export democracy, it has to be to a society with a well-educated stable middle-class.
Because of policies of mccain and gramm, our educational institutions are in trouble, they depend on property taxes from middle-class home owners. Our middle-class are rapidly becoming the new working poor (although a few may work their way up to the upper-class.)
Larry Lessig.....You might want to get in touch with a former fed chair by the name of William Poole. Seems the wonderful economy your espousing, isn't all that wonderful. In fact it's so lousy, that Congress ie: the American tax payer is going to be asked to bail out the banks and brokerages. Bad enough they can't pay for food or fuel any longer, so lets drive the final nail into the financial coffin by having Joe and Jane six pack pay for bailing out those poor old banks. Some used to even think that banks were too big to fail. You know what? Let them. Then it will allow America to right the wrong that was created in 1913. The Federal Reserve. I do hope that Paulson and Bernanke have their resumes at the ready, but it might be more fun watching them sell pencils and apples on a street corner like the rest of us when the depression hits us in full force.
Fannie, Freddie insolvent, Poole tells Bloomberg
(Reuters) - Mortgage lenders Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac are "insolvent" and may need a U.S. government bailout, former St. Louis Federal Reserve President William Poole was quoted as saying in an interview with Bloomberg.
"Congress ought to recognize that these firms are insolvent, that it is allowing these firms to continue to exist as bastions of privilege, financed by the taxpayer," Poole was quoted as saying in an interview held on Wednesday.
Chances are increasing that the government may need to bail out the two mortgage companies, Poole was quoted as saying.
Shares of the two companies have taken a beating recently on worries about whether they can withstand more losses and support housing as well as concerns that they may need to raise massive amounts of new capital.
Freddie Mac shares tumbled 23.8 percent to $10.26 on the New York Stock Exchange on Wednesday, while Fannie Mae shares sank 13.1 percent to $15.31.
Poole could not be immediately reached for comment.
Damn, and I don't even get a hat tip? Thanks a lot, guys.
Dr. Hussein Matt @ 113:
If you can't figure it out from either Larry's post or your own reading of this site, then I cannot help you. I'm sorry for being incompetent in this regard. I'm not that kind of psychologist.
68 Dr. Hussein Matt Says: Larry Lessig @ 66:
Hi Joseph, You have no answer, so you insult. This is the problem with C&L. You disagree with me, so rather than actually say something sensible, you sling mud.
People like you make me sick.
ROFL. Hi kettle!!
=========================
Here's something sensible, you are an idiot parroting conservative talking points.
For far too long the money has been syphoned up to the top part of the "hourglass", while the amount ordinary people get has been diminished. Real wages continue to decline. Some people have to deicde a car or an apartment, but not both. It doesn't have to be this way. It didn't use to be this way. It is a result of GOP mismanagement. 1% growth to corporations, that are downsizing again, to keep profits up, while CEO salaries go through the roof.
Rusty Shackleford @ 118:
*Golf clap*
Edwin Hussein @ 104:
The thing is that the US still ignores things like cost of gas and food in the compounding of the inflation index.
The Euros blow a gasket every now and then because their main concern is the inflation, and when calculating it their governments can't weasel out of the fact that salaries do not rise as fast as the cost of living... which means that somewhere a lot of wealth has been transferred from the worker over to the top of the food chain which tends to be the ones printing the funny money and driving inflation up.
That is one big difference between the EU and the US of A. Where the average American worker is too docile to make the connection that their salaries haven't risen anywhere as much as the cost of living. And thus they have to work 2x as hard to make the same ends meet. Because they are told they should believe insignificant made up indexes which do not track the reality of the economy, and not their own lying eyes.
JTM @ 119:
You're the one that is claiming that C&L is "hurting America". Sack up and explain why C&L is "hurting America". It has nothing to do with psychology.
We'll continue to wait.....
Oh yes, look at all these poor slobs, whining away just because they lost their paychecks, their jobs, their houses, their health...
There you go, America. This is what's known as "compassionate conservatism". These people think your problems, your hardships, your strife... are funny. It also annoys them so when you dare to whine. I mean, look at them! You don't hear them complaining when they have to make do with only two solid platinum jacuzzi spas per villa, or when they have to grudgingly tolerate having only sapphire-trimmed turbine blades instead of the diamond in their fleet of Learjets, or when one of their private pacific island retreats doesn't have quite the climate they'd like for two months of every year.
Jeez, what whiners.
Edwin Hussein @ 120:
Ding, ding, ding. You win the prize.
That's why princess "the obsessive" was so quick to run to his defense.
114 Van
Besides their automatic pay-increases in Congress (they have to have a vote to refuse them), most of our wealthiest families depend on government military contracts, or protection from the government, especially local, in the form of tax incentives, tax breaks and rebates. They get the estate tax breaks and the capital gain increase tax breaks. They ask for and get government bail-outs when the encounter trouble all at the expense of the whining populace.
The government has to spend more during periods of souring economy so it doesn't collapse entirely, due to less spending by households and businesses. That means either higher deficits or higher borrowing which puts them in the same position of too many people with their credit cards. As much as they're paying it's only on interest and not the principle. This takes money out of economic circulation needed for business and home investments.
A simple thing like rebuilding America's infrastructure would provide roads, highways and bridges that WE all use, regardless of class. It would provide work for infrastructure creation and repair. The shops and restaurants that serve such arteries will spring up like dandilions in spring. And more importantly to me
The whores will come back.
Dr. Hussein Matt @ 123:
Unless you have buns of steel, I strongly suggest not sitting on the edge of your chair while waiting.
[BTM, please contact us at sitemonitor1@gmail.com for further clarification. Thank you. (A different)Site Monitor]
Dr. Hussein Matt @ 121:
Thank you, thank you.
Y'know, when the real Larry Lessig reads this thread he's gonna be pissed.
JTM @ 127:
So, you can't explain why C&L is "hurting America"?
122 The Dude
I forgot about that, the cost of durable goods is what they consider, not food, not gas, not our wars (which we may never know the full cost of due to "security issues.")
JTM @ 119:
Really, if you can point out there is a problem-let's hear what it is...like Dr Matt said sack up!! what's it all about? your style is too too subtle for us here on the left side of things.
It reminds of the "If you don't know I'm not gonna tell you" retort from 3rd or 4th grade.
Rusty Shackleford @ 128:
Lessig is considered a "liberal", but he clerked for two influential conservative judges: Richard Posner and Justice Antonin Scalia.
Enough said....
The Banks have always disliked Fannie and Freddie, in the way that rival criminal crews are sometimes in conflict, sometimes cooperating in an uneasy truce. Greenspan, as the voice of Banking, always sought to limit Fannie and Freddie even while he was urging wild abandon with just about every other form of credit and regulatory restraint, from hedge funds to credit derivatives to Glass-Steagall. Allowing the Fed a greater role in regulation is a major policy mistake by almost any measure. The are private, they are opaque, they are controlled by special interests, they are not answerable to the people except on occasional visits to the relatively clueless Congress.
If Congress dare to bail out the banks and brokers that continued to drive this ponzi scam, that will be the tipping point for the second American Revolution that will make the FISA fight look like a walk in the park.
matt: yes, but the difference is that i can post a photo of my flat with my laptop in front of it showing your post and my place which is clearly not in the USA. also, perhaps you care to do an IP lookup if this forum somehow stores it (though I didnt see it).
I'm not going to bother arguing any more. at the point where somebody called me keynsean even though the discussion never really went into fiscal policy at all shows that some people are just typing to see the letters move. And to the guy who claims that libertarians know economics, I ask him if he can define two terms from Economics 101 without looking at wikipedia - externalities and market failure - and tell me again how they are accounted for in the libertarian fantasyland. because really - all economists are libertarians - except where externalities and market failures are concerned - it's just that some of us understand that such factors are far larger and more important than libertarians would admit to.
I never said the US economy doesn't have serious problems. It sure does, and I know this better than most of you here. What I did say was that the situation isn't nearly as bad for the average american as he/she seems to think so and suggest that most of the recent relative economic loss of the usa can be explained by something called "factor growth", which, in a nutshell means that we're not doing particularly worse than we did before, just that a whole lot of other countries decided to take their heads out of their asses at about the same time. when it all normalizes, the US will still be at the top because the fundamentals are good. To wit, yes the standard of living in poland has skyrocketed because of the remittances made by polish plumbers and waiters in the EU. And while it certainly looks impressive compared to the crap state poland was in during communism, at the end of the day being a nation of plumbers and waiters will only get you so far.
Other european gains of late can be attributed to internal efficiencies largely caused by the opening of internal borders, abandoning unnecessary social costs (not the necessary ones - just a lot of the dead-weight ones) and, in the case of the UK, the willingness to look the other way as to the source of capital, something in post-9/11 USA we are less willing to do. Yes, maybe AnBev can buy Anheuser Busch now largely because the ECB refuses to lower Euro interest rates - but just like the Japanese buying Rockefeller center, it will all come to naught if deep down the fundamentals aren't there.
To wit, check out the cover of last week's Economist magazine.
ok, i have to go sleep now. ive wasted enough time.
Sounds like he's whining about it.
Here is some fun reading on the economy for you all :
http://www.lacitybeat.com/cms/story/detail/house_of_cards/7181/
Matt, I'm not actually lawrence lessig. I am an academic - i just forgot i took lessig's name as a joke here since i was reading something with his name in it as i signed up.
Dr._Matt@123
Don't hold your breath- it's at least 10pm in the UK- they turned off their end of the Trans-Oceanic cable.
Dr.Matt_@125
Thufferin' thucotash! How many timeth mutht it be thaid? It'th Thylvethter!
Don't try to confuse the issue with half-truths and gorilla dust.
119 JTM Says: Dr. Hussein Matt @ 113:
JTM @ 107:
Larry Lessig @ 47:
Amen.
I would suggest that the organizers of C&L watch that J.Stewart-on-Crossfire YouTube at least once a month. When they stop finding it funny and start getting uncomfortable when Stewart begs “stop hurting America,” I hope they act accordingly.
Please detail how C&L is “hurting America”
We’ll wait for an answer…..
If you can’t figure it out from either Larry’s post or your own reading of this site, then I cannot help you. I’m sorry for being incompetent in this regard. I’m not that kind of psychologist.
=====================================
It sounds like you're about to cry JTM. If you don't know why I'm upset, I'm not going to tell you. Need some tissue?
"Larry Lessig", you forgot to include in your last two posts that your are a "Democrat" and an "Obama supporter".
137 Larry Lessig Says: Matt, I’m not actually lawrence lessig. I am an academic - i just forgot i took lessig’s name as a joke here since i was reading something with his name in it as i signed up.
===============================
Hey, I'm all for academics, but sometimes you have to go out in the swamp and meet the real critters living in it: not just read about them, and then draw conclusions on paper.
Edwin Hussein @ 139:
Nope. C&L is not the website that I'm looking at when I need tissues. But thanks anyway.
135 miss_kitty Says: Top McCain Econ Adviser: “We have sort of become a nation of whiners…”
Sounds like he’s whining about it.
==============
Touche miss_kitty.
JTM @ 142:
Bill O'Reilly.com?
Larry Lessig @ 137:
It is pretty funny
Larry Lessig Says: matt: yes, but the difference is that i can post a photo of my flat with my laptop in front of it showing your post and my place which is clearly not in the USA. also, perhaps you care to do an IP lookup if this forum somehow stores it (though I didnt see it).
I’m not going to bother arguing any more. at the point where somebody called me keynsean even though the discussion never really went into fiscal policy at all shows that some people are just typing to see the letters move. And to the guy who claims that libertarians know economics, I ask him if he can define two terms from Economics 101 without looking at wikipedia - externalities and market failure - and tell me again how they are accounted for in the libertarian fantasyland. because really - all economists are libertarians - except where externalities and market failures are concerned - it’s just that some of us understand that such factors are far larger and more important than libertarians would admit to.
I never said the US economy doesn’t have serious problems. It sure does, and I know this better than most of you here. What I did say was that the situation isn’t nearly as bad for the average american as he/she seems to think so and suggest that most of the recent relative economic loss of the usa can be explained by something called “factor growth”, which, in a nutshell means that we’re not doing particularly worse than we did before, just that a whole lot of other countries decided to take their heads out of their asses at about the same time. when it all normalizes, the US will still be at the top because the fundamentals are good. To wit, yes the standard of living in poland has skyrocketed because of the remittances made by polish plumbers and waiters in the EU. And while it certainly looks impressive compared to the crap state poland was in during communism, at the end of the day being a nation of plumbers and waiters will only get you so far.
Other european gains of late can be attributed to internal efficiencies largely caused by the opening of internal borders, abandoning unnecessary social costs (not the necessary ones - just a lot of the dead-weight ones) and, in the case of the UK, the willingness to look the other way as to the source of capital, something in post-9/11 USA we are less willing to do. Yes, maybe AnBev can buy Anheuser Busch now largely because the ECB refuses to lower Euro interest rates - but just like the Japanese buying Rockefeller center, it will all come to naught if deep down the fundamentals aren’t there.
To wit, check out the cover of last week’s Economist magazine.
ok, i have to go sleep now. ive wasted enough time.
The economist magazine?!?! No wonder you believe in the tooth fairy. You can't get anymore republican in thought than that rag. I wouldn't even bother bringing it into the mens room unless I were going to wipe my ass with it.
Now matter Larry how you wish to view the world through rose colored glasses, no fiat currency has ever survived and the dollar is no different. Gold and silver have been the only real money that mankind has known for five thousand years and no amount of mental manipulation is going to change that.
Secretary Paulson was asked about Fannie and Freddy. He responded by saying it is better not to talk about individual companies so as not to create fear. Hold on now! Fannie and Freddy are both GSE"s. GSE stands for GOVERNMENT SPONSORED ENTITY. How could talking about a government agency be a problem? These two are said to need at least $75 Billion just to keep their doors open. Being the bright 4th grader that I am, I have the solution! Since the Fed has so much room on its balance sheet, the Treasury can go across the street and borrow the $75 large from the Fed. No problema.
This entire situation reminds me of someone dropping dead in the street and passers by just keep walking past the poor soul. You can spin yourself into ground from now until doomsday, but the whining is as real and palpable as the emptyness of many stomachs across America this evening.
dennis @ 95:
I shit about the economy, lil' d. I totally shit about it.
Last week I read that in Nevada they've noticed a drop off of long-haul truckers.
So the brothels are offering gas cards.
142 JTM Says: Edwin Hussein @ 139:
It sounds like you’re about to cry JTM. If you don’t know why I’m upset, I’m not going to tell you. Need some tissue?
Nope. C&L is not the website that I’m looking at when I need tissues. But thanks anyway.
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Burke&Hare.com?
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