So much for the 'respectful campaign'
By Steve Benen Monday Jul 14, 2008 8:30amIn recent weeks, as the McCain campaign has become more reckless in its attacks, the presumptive Republican nominee and his allies have begun going after Barack Obama’s integrity. McCain’s campaign has said Obama should not be “taken at his word,” and his “word cannot be trusted.” McCain was asked directly whether he questioned Obama’s patriotism, and McCain wouldn’t give a straight answer.
Yesterday, the McCain campaign kicked things up a notch, arguing that Obama and Democrats want to see the U.S. fail in Iraq in order to benefit politically.
The new accusation was unveiled on a McCain campaign conference call [this morning], with top McCain surrogates making this charge in tandem.
Sen. Lindsey Graham said that a “turning point” was when Harry Reid declared the war “lost” over a year ago, and brought up an old quote from Chuck Schumer predicting that discontent with the war would lead to further Democratic gains. “The Democratic Party built a political strategy around us losing the war in Iraq,” Graham said.
McCain adviser Randy Scheunemann joined in: “Senator Obama seems to think losing a war will help him win an election.”
Now, none of McCain’s surrogates or aides literally used the word “treason,” but their comments were pointed in that direction. After all, Americans who actively want to see U.S. troops die in a war and “lose” on the battlefield are, necessarily, anti-American. Anyone who would look forward to American defeat for political gain is, by any reasonable definition, a traitor.
I vaguely recall McCain’s promise to run a “respectful” and “civil” campaign. Like most of McCain’s promises, this one didn’t last long.
As long as the shameless hacks at McCain headquarters are going to scrape the bottom of the rhetorical barrel, we might as well point out a few of the problems here.
First, as Greg Sargent noted, it’s McCain and his aides who’ve said terrorist attacks on U.S. soil would help Republicans. During the 2004 elections, after the release of a Bin Laden tape, McCain said, “Bin Laden may have just given us a little boost. Amazing, huh?” To paraphrase McCain adviser Randy Scheunemann, Senator McCain seems to think death and destruction at the hands of al Qaeda will help Republicans win an election.
Second, responsibility for the failure of the U.S. policy in Iraq rests with the Bush administration, and by extension, the Republican cheerleaders in Congress who’ve enabled the president for years. Neither Obama nor Democrats in general deserve the blame for the fiasco Bush and McCain helped create.
Third, to hear the McCain campaign tell it, “The Democratic Party built a political strategy around us losing the war in Iraq.” My only follow-up question: “To whom?” For all the talk about “defeat” from Republicans, I’d love to know who it is the GOP thinks would beat us.
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Yeah, it's going to get ugly. And that will help Obama. They are just too stupid to notice.
Simon White-Thatch Potentloins @ 1:
I hope you are right.
To be fair ... who would know more about 'treason' than this bunch of unindicted co-conspirators ?
I think it's pretty easy to turn their talking points around with a little search and replace:
And so on.
People are sick and tired of all the negativity. These windbags need to retire to the sittin' porch and let our nation heal, already!
The next time one of these "surrogates" pipes up, which reporter will ask them why they are pursuing a negative campaign strategy? Is Helen Thomas the only journalist with a soul left in America?
So he not only hypocritically calls Obama a flip-flopper (and on FISA at least, he is, but not nearly as bad as McCain that I've seen), but he also wants his cake and to eat it as well with Iraq draw downs?
From what I've read recently, McCain expects to politically gain from the fact that Iraq doesn't want us there anymore. So he is planning to use that fact as a way to score points by saying that our mission is done and that the Republicans are the ones that brought our troops home.
But if he makes that argument, he can't really claim that Obama is using that same fact to score political points, or else he is (once again) being hypocritical.
Well, these are politicians we're talking about... Hypocrisy is one of the more important "virtues".
Can we censure Sen Lindsay Graham for fear-mongering?
What an idiot! Is there anything that comes out of his mouth that even sounds intelligent? There is only one person to blame for the problems with our occupation of Iraq, BUSH. Maybe we should lump in the enablers like Graham but if a Democrat is sitting in the Oval Office on 21 January, 2009, its because BUSH was appointed President in 2000!
Has anyone else but myself noticed everybody in America is watching Nascar, or plying the aisles of BJs Discount Warehouse for next week's supply of mesquite-and-guacamole flavored Doritos, or having flames and chains tattooed on their necks, or walking or racing around lost in a haze of valium and methedrine?
L.A. Confidential @ 8:
Not everyone... Some of us are on blogs like these bitching about how corrupt our politicians are but really doing nothing about it other than re-electing them every 2-4 years.
James @ 9:
Yeah. Well we may as well be bitching to the moon. Live and learn as the old saying goes.
Hey Lindsey....still single?? Larry Craig might be 'single' soon...you two should hook up, maybe a private tour of the Minneapolis Airport?
Would this be the same Lindsey Graham who told the Dems in 2005 that the Repugs would "clean your clock", in 2006?
The ranks of "Senior Advisors" at the Heritage Foundation are swelling with failed policy advocates fauning for the days when american Voters were gullible enough to believe Repugs were the messengers of God.
Now it is impossible to find a parking space at the Heritage Foundation, and the line at the coffee maker goes out the door and around the corner.
I would propose that Heritage Foundation change it's name to Galts Gulch as in Atlas Shrugged except that the world would function much better without the Heritage Foundation and it's "Senior Advisors".
"Yesterday, the McCain campaign kicked things up a notch, arguing that Obama and Democrats want to see the U.S. fail in Iraq in order to benefit politically."
We failed in Iraq long ago and that's the Republicans fault because they lied us into the country in the first place. Even if we did succeed we would have succeeded for big oil which was the whole point on the invasion in the first place. The voters need to remember they are punishing the GOP for their lies and deception about Iraq and the 4000 Americans and countless of innocent men, woman and children who have died because of the Republican war.
Shut the fuck up republician until you can name the date the "Declaration of war"as required by the United States Constitution.
Otherwise the only thing they support is a rampage of war whores in another country showing off their nifty new weapons of murder, that were manufactured in their congressional district. An illegal ,unconstitutional invasion and occupation of a oil rich nation is what we have done, so let's not parse words here. Let those drug store cowboys that support the rape of Iraq know they are not fighting for our freedoms rather oil company profits. And judging by the size of those profits it would seem once again the American military overwhelmed the enemy.(us)
"To paraphrase McCain adviser Randy Scheunemann, Senator McCain seems to think death and destruction at the hands of al Qaeda will help Republicans win an election."
Actually, when the bombs start to explode (or however the next attack goes) it will be whatever party is currently in the White House that benefits. Why? People 99% of the American people are scared little sheep that turn to the government to do EVERYTHING for them. So obviously they will flock to the president, vote for him/her and his/her party in large numbers and say "Save us! Protect us from the evil bad men! Do whatever it takes!" And then the president will happily oblige by taking away even more liberties and freedoms in the name of a false sense of security.
So this won't work just in Republican's favor, but Democrats as well, assuming they have the White House when the next attack occurs. However, I wonder how much sites like Daily Kos, C&L, AmericaBlog, et al will decry a Democratic president who acts in largely the same way Bush has over the last several years?
So, to get back onto topic, assuming Obama wins (and so long as he doesn't keep "moving to the center" he likely will), will he act against the precedents set by Bush? Or merely continue them? If given the opportunity by another terrorist attack, will he fight against the root causes, or just punish us Americans for the actions of others by restricting our liberties? Finally, if he does restrict more freedom, who besides the right-wingers will speak out against it?
Well, as for political calculations on the war, I remember not long ago a McSame surrogate saying that an attack on the US would help elect McSame. With the propensity for administration lies, maybe they'll just declare that an attack occurred but they can't reveal any details for "national security" or "executive privilege" reasons.
These guys are the worst of the worst...the "living dead". Read more. http://www.tagg-lines.com/2008/07/from-satire-to-irony-in-one.html
I'd like to take a group of maimed Iraqis to mcstain's home and ask him if this is what "success" looks like. How many murders constitute a success?
Whee the dust settles on this campaign, I think what we'll see is McCain really isn't all that bad of a person, he just surrounded himself with too many seeds from the GOP smear machine.
That simply makes him lazy and stupid.
I have visions of his handlers sitting at some fancy hotel talking strategy and talking points, while McCain wanders from room to room asking if anyone needs a drink. Later, the list of memes are presented to him, he repeats them that night, and by 10 pm he completely forgot what he said. Sort of like my grandmom in her final days.
Is it like that? Am I wrong here?
I think not.
Surely Obama will be able to convince Non Amuricans' outside the homelands borders to stop worrying that their wedding party will be vaporized in blast of napalm or that their brother-in-law will be dragged off to some CIA hellhole where his eyes are gouged out and his fingernails ripped off.
L.A. Confidential @ 10:
Is that what you do for the 2 hrs a day you are not ranting on C&L?
L.A. Confidential @ 20:
You're howling at the moon again.
Ahh...the Repugnicans - bringing dignity and civility to the public discourse....since....I can't go on.....oh, puke.
Radically Moderate @ 12:
Linsey Graham also told his reich-wing colleagues that they would be rewarded in 2008 for NOT voting for the new and improved VA bill.
The war was lost the moment it was decided to fabricate phony pretexts for waging it. It was lost the moment it was decided to wage it without near unanimous international approval and support. It was lost the moment it was started, because it was a war of aggression, colonization and theft waged against an innocent country. It was lost the moment it was used as a pretext to rape the Constitution. It was lost the moment an intent to plunder the nation's treasure and placed it into the hands of corrupt corporations was conceived. It was lost the moment was decided to turn Iraq into a puppet state and colony of the US. It was lost when Iraqi civilian death toll started in the hundreds, then thousands, then hundreds of thousands and now 1.4 million and counting. It was lost when millions of Iraqis joined the numbers of the maimed, the homeless or those whose lives have been ruined. It was lost the moment it was decided that we would join ranks with the most loathsome and tyrannical regimes around, when we discarded all respect for Human Rights, when we decided to become war criminals and criminals against humanity.
For all the above, the sacrifices of our own troops have been for nothing. A waste and a high crime.
If Obama has any fault in this regard, it is that he is willing to continue this ongoing crime in order to score political points with those who cannot demonstrate that they possess a functioning conscience.
Bye. Good Luck
This may be the reason why McGrampa/Hillary supporters are so moody lately:
http://www.electoral-vote.com/icon.html
L.A. Confidential @ 10:
You may be correct L.A. (If I may be so informal as to use your first name only) but while they are at the discount store they know why they are there. It is because Bush/McSame put us their. They are wondering how they or their kids or brother or aunt or cousin are going to be able to make their house payment or wondering if they are going to be able to take that vacation this year because they can’t afford it and who cares anyway because they are just going to have to go to the lake without their new boat because it has bee repossessed. And their kid needs an operation but they can’t afford the best drug therapy. They know why they are not happy. Every time they see Lindsey Graham and Lieberman and McBush they know who has taken this country down. Every time Chumpie gets in front of the cameras they know. By November it is going to get worse and they won’t be able to afford those mesquite-and-guacamole cheddar flavored Doritos. And there will be McBush with that shit \-eating grin and he will represent what is wrong in their lives. Every time they turn on the news will be more examples of what McBush is doing to them. If I may be so bold as to say it is making them very bitter. You can fool some of the people some of the time but you can’t fool all the people all the time…. Hopefully.
Anyone who thinks War has a winning state, has no business in politics :(
Which part of the hundreds of billions of dollars the Democrats authorized were actually spent on sabotaging the war effort? This argument won't work. Move on.
Did anyone actually believe them when they said they'd run a respectful campaign . I mean c'mon look who we're dealing with.
The foundation of John McCain's campaign is a stack of US and Iraqi corpses.
-GSD
It's funny. In 14 years in the military even mentioning that you were considering voting democrat was tantamount to declaring that you were gay. Now, with all the strategic blundering made under the current administrations leadership, it's okay to "come out of the closet" as intending to vote democrat this year. Lot's of us are "coming out" if you will!
mudshark hussein @ 31:
Well, they are the party of "we support the troops and vets just as long as they do not speak up, speak out, or have a (D) after their name."
Every time Lindsey Graham opens his mouth he reminds middle America about what is wrong and how they got to where they are right now. Wondering how they will make their next house payment or fill the tank with gas.
I thought that more failures in the war on terror was supposed to help McCain?
Weren't they saying that they hope there is a major terrorist attack on America, to prove that we more McSame to keep us safe?
Dr. Hussein Matt @ 27:
That map needs an update; Zogby has Obama ahead in AZ by three points as of last week.
But yes, I'll wager that might make them a wee bit testy.
Dr. Hussein Matt @ 34:
This is just the beginning. It's going to get so ugly it won't be tolerable. People(some) are so tired of politics as usual. The dirty backroom deals, the dirty tactics just to get elected.Any rationally thinking person would see that this will backfire on them.The 29%rs don't count.
Captain Bitter Whiner Husein Kangaroo @ 28:
Now you're just talking about America's 300 million whiners.
“The Democratic Party built a political strategy around us losing the war in Iraq,” Graham said.
Its funny how McCain and Graham are two of only a handful of military veterans the Republicans have that are saying these things. I guess they see that as somehow adding credibility to their argument against Obama.
However, it was that same Republican party, who through their own incompetence and lack of military experience over all who built a political strategy around military matters they knew nothing about. The military still carries out those Republican orders to the best of their ability and the Democrats, many of whom are veterans, simply pointed out that Republican incompetence and inexperience for all to see. The Republicans have been losing ground in election after election since the beginning of their wars and Bush has record low approval ratings. In the end, the only losers I see are the Republican.
Lately, every time I watch a video on C&L, YouTube freezes on me and I have to restart my browser to watch videos again. I can't watch YouTube videos at all on C&L now. WMVs work fine, but still freezes me out of YouTube.
This is the only site that does this to me.
Anyone know a fix for this? I'm us9ing Mozilla Firefox.
Paul @ 25:
neither obama or mccain are qulified to run this country! even if obama wins the whitehouse the republican policys will continuei, as long as thiers oil under the sands of iraq we will have occupation troops there! obama is sold on staying in afganistan and intends to widen the war there, why? whats the reason for widening that war? our tax dollars and troops lives will be pissed down the drain for no good reason, nobody has yet beaten the afgans in war , its thier country and we have no buisness being there, obama is just another warmonger and will only make sure more of our moneys put in the hands of the war machine corporations , this war and whats left of the iraq agression belongs to the democrats after jan the 9th , then when the body bags start getting filled with bob and shirley you will be the enabelers of fachisim!
JW @ 33:
Damn right. I'm a veteran and I agree. I remember a long time ago I tagged along at some Republican function just for kicks. I figured there would be lots of veterns there. Turns out, there wasn't and I was pretty much the only one that I saw in the place. Talk about feeling alone. I went to a Democratic function and sure enough. There were many veterans. I knew I was in good company so I stayed.
That's OK we know republicans get carried away, but a democrat running the scurlious campaign obama did against Hillary takes the cake. It certainly helped that all the crap he sneaked in and then turned around to say it was her, was helped out by the good old blogs. I never knew there were such liars and woman haters in this country..but we saw it with the onliners slurring Hillary. Heck you couldn't post a truth that was negative about obama DU threatened to ban you..BUT THEY LET YOU SAY she was a lesbian, (no basis) that she had an affair with the PM of Pakistan (no basis). She killed Kathryn Willey's cats and any piece of trash you wanted but if you said obama didn't even walk straight you posted got deleted. So what kind of courteous campaign was that. obama knows he started it.
I still don't get why the GOP is trying to label Obama as inexperienced when McCain is so clearly stupid? I'd rather have a smart inexperienced person in the white house than another idiot.
How much you want to bet the democrats dont have the balls to say that "The democrats built a strategy to win based on the same blunders being made by the republicans that all colonial occupation anti-freedom types always make."
Joe O. @ 40:
The congress also has a record low approval rating, in the single digits as of last week's polling. In light of this, I find that their compliance with this criminal administration is baffling.
Perhaps they really are just the same party and putting on a show and not a very good one at that.
I hope that I am wrong, but if it quacks like a duck...
At this point when we win we lose; so many lost lives, so much lost money, such lost standing in the world, so many opportunities for larger dangers to take root.
We will pay the price but not count the cost has been Bush's unspoken stand, the means justify the ends. After all is said and done we will learn the price was too much, neonuts won't be able to disagree the price will force it's payment making it obvious even to many of them even if they don't admit it.
Dear Sen. McCain:
Iraq was a fool's errand to begin with. There could be nothing more patriotic that withdrawing our soldiers and Marines - who didn't order themselves there, after all - in an effort to make sure than not even one more life is lost than necessary under these circumstances.
Also, let's remember that by your "logic" we'd should still be in Vietnam. That really puts things in perspective.
You're a foolish old man, McSame, and you prove it every single day.
displeased @ 45:
McGeezer has NO experience either. McOld tries to equate his alleged experience with the simple fact that he is OLD.
BTW - I guess the vast majority of the American people are traitors too because they want us to pull out of Iraq as well.
Barack Obama purges Web site critique of surge in Iraq
Against the surge before he was for it, only he doesn't want you to know it.
Change, allright. Just the change he wants you to know about.
Learning any more than what he wants you to know is running a disrespectful campaign.
chuck @ 51:
I guess the Iraqis are traitors to there country too, seeing as they want us to set a time table and get the hell out.
They already won, they got the sweetheart deals for the big oil companies, they hung Saddam. The crooks and liars already won, McCain is insane.
chuck @ 51:
Most educated, informed Americans, the Iraqis, the rest of the world...only the GOP, the profiteers, oh and Dennis want us to stay in Iraq.
How 'bout this: The Republicians don't have the intelligence to win a war,they are stupid to the bone. After five years and 865 billion (3 Trill) they can't beat a country that was defeated militarily ten years earlier, under sanctions and has less then one tenth our population. Put a republician in charge of everything and they are impotent , can't get it up, can't seal the deal and in general are life's losers.
This is the paradox of the conservative pro-war stance. For all that they rave about not surrendering, not giving up, not quitting, and fighting terrorism ...
... they're the first ones to whine and moan about how America will fall oh-so-quickly in the absence of their policies. As if under a Democratic president, they'll all be hopping on the Rapture bus or something, leaving the heart of the country undefended against the hordes of hidden Muslims. Never mind that you can't conquer America without crossing an ocean on either side, and that's something from the industrial war era - it takes a nation state, not a bunch of non-state actors hiding in caves; not to mention having to fight for every square inch, every city, town, and parish.
Any time someone even suggests the intelligent option of a strategic withdrawal, the conservatives drum up fears of surrender as if we're all going to wake up to the muezzin calling us to prayer, and our wives and daughters will be swapping their Victoria's Secret garb for burquahs.
Eight years of this horseshit is enough.
Just for kicks I've been conducting an experiment of sorts lately with many Republican war supporters that I run into. I've always loved a good brawl (the main reason why I joined the Marines because that is what Marines do and I have been in many brawls in the past) so I decided to try and see what reaction I would get from them if I pushed them far enough. 9 out of 10 times, in my estimation they have backed down. When faced with a possible actual physical confrontation they tend not to have the stomach for it. One, even tried to play it down and started giggling like some sort of school girl and that was a guy doing it. Can you believe that, started giggling like a school girl and these are suppose to be the so called "tough guys on terrorism"? I ran my experiment idea by some other veterans and I was surprised to learn that they sometimes do the same thing. One veteran even told me that a war supporter ran out of the room when he confronted him with an actual physical confrontation and never looked back. Some may say my experiment is mean but it proves my theory correct that war supporters are all talk and no walk.
Well you can see what the Republican convention is going to be about. I don't understand why the Democratic convention is always first and the 'Puke convention second. Is it because they have the WH? Anyway, I've noticed in the past two presidential races that the Republicans get to spend their convention bashing the Democratic convention and platform, and someday I'd like to see that reversed. Having said that, I don't think they are going to succeed this year. The Republicans are all washed up with the American people over Iraq and the economy.
Joe O. @ 58:
horseshit!
Joe O -- you've proven that the chickenhawks are pussies.
swampfox @ 60:
Think so. I actually enjoy it.
Joe O. @ 62:
i kicked the shit out of more then one jarhead and im no repig !
swampfox @ 63:
Sure you have buddy.
Joe O. @ 64:
bet your sweet ass! the trouble with you guys is called brain washing ! enjoy the fantasy!
Joe O. @ 58:
The people I've known that love wars the most, have never been in one.
I've only known a few veterans that saw combat and enjoyed it. One is career military, and other was in a single hit and run raid that he thought was exciting.
McCain seems to be an anomaly in being salivatingly eager for war, after having been a veteran in a horrific situation.
swampfox @ 65:
Joe O. @ 64:
Its not a fantasy. I've done it many times.
Weaseldog @ 66:
I agree. I'm not saying that I enjoyed the conflicts I've been in (Desert Storm and Kosovo) but I do enjoy a good brawl though. Always have since I was kid.
swampfox @ 60:
Most bullies are cowards.
Joe O. @ 67:
so have i ! but i never bragged about it ,
swampfox @ 70:
Why not. Call the war supporters out.
swampfox @ 70:
What are you doing now?
Joe O. @ 71:
All I am saying is challenge them on it.
The point you all miss is this - what Grahamn said is the truth. Democrats HAVE built a political strategy around us "losing" the war. It is the basis of all of O'bama's policies. He continues to talk about the "current administrations failed policies" - which translates to how "bad" we are doing in the War on Terror. Face it - Democrats want to see more dead Americans, more suicide bombers, and more general hate against America so they can build up their negative propaganda.
I wonder what kind of a response Obama would get if he mentioned how thin McCain's hair was getting on top?
Rand @ 74:
I disagree. The current Administration's failed policies ARE the problem and it is those policies that the military has carry out.
Mickxotic @ 72:
saying it like it is! i saw lots of marines in korea and thier no different then anyone else they just listened to one to many drill instructor tell them thier how tough they are when they put on marine green,
Rand @ 74:
What war? I don't recall any congressional declaration of war. Do you mean the
illegal occupation of a sovereign nation at the behest of petroleum corporations? Or perhaps the search for WMDs?Rand @ 74:
You couldn't get any dumber if they cut your head off!
Keep on cheering for the assholes who are desroying your country. They are laughing their ass off at how cluelessly stupid you are! Rand, you are a complete and utter fool!
Rand @ 74:
When it is the truth it isnt Propaganda... look up the definition of that word... When a country does what the republicans lead America to do it is easily predictable that they will be commiting wrongs against the people of that country and that they will resist... the republicans tried to deny this and make it look they were not commiting war crimes and that the Iraqis would like being occupied... they were liars.. or idiots.. or both... and the democrats that have studied history knew that this would happen...
This is part of Obama's speech on Iraq he will make before he goes to the ME. Kudos to him on speaking the truth about Bush's war.
swampfox @ 77:
That is BS... going through Marine Corp boot camp and combat training and the other training they get CHANGES a person... I saw it personally.
"Sen. Lindsey Graham said that a “turning point” was when Harry Reid declared the war “lost” over a year ago, and brought up an old quote from Chuck Schumer predicting that discontent with the war would lead to further Democratic gains. “The Democratic Party built a political strategy around us losing the war in Iraq,” Graham said."
Who is this little butt-munch chicken-hawk anyway? Every time he opens his yap, out spews another load of bullshit. Go away ya little punk and take the rest of McSame's tools with you. Seriously, this guy needs HIS ass kicked. The STRAIGHT JACKET EXPRESS and The INSANE FOR McCAIN crowd is becoming more restless by the minute and the lies and bullshit will only grow louder, but I still have confidence that there is just enough sanity and sense in the American electorate to see through this veil of horseshit, otherwise known as The Insane McCain Campaign.
Gerald Gibson @ 80:
I agree. Everyone except for the Republicans knew this was going to happen. Even the "Axis of Weasels" knew that it could happen. They should, they have all been down this same road before and have ended up the same way when they were at the height of their empires. France in Algeria, Soviet Union in Afghanistan, etc.
"Keep on cheering for the assholes who are desroying (sp) your country" .
Sorry, I cannot cheer for Liberals.
Gerald Gibson @ 82:
well duh ! so does anyone who gets brain washed !
Rand @ 74:
Bush's policies have "failed" shit for brains. And just remember dumb fuck....DEMOCRATS ARE OVER THERE FIGHTING AND DYING TOO.
Actually voter's are less concerned with war and more concerned with bread and margerine issues
They can't afford the butter
For that mattter that can't afford the bread
But they can stand outside Mrs. Bairds factories sniffing the air.
I agree with this guy in one issue, that's Obama's word no longer has the value it once had. He has proven that he is not the candidate of change, only a typical politician that is a great orator. If he were a vessel of change, he would actually be leading, not following. He is not fit to lead our nation. There really is no democrat, or republican, that is a suitable vessel for real change. I doubt even Kucinich or Paul are capable. The real heroes of America for unidentified reasons are scared to throw their hat in and say I am your man/woman.
swampfox @ 86:
Its NOT brainwash... what kind of anti American soldier idea is that? It is MUCH more like a near death experience... it takes boys and turns them into men.
Pawn @ 89:
Here are the real heroes... it is you and I... it is the progressives and the newly created Ron Paul movement... http://www.accountabilitynowpac.com/ ... the future is OURS ... it doesnt belong to the chicken hawks... they dont have the guts to take us on... nor the brains.
swampfox @ 86:
I guess you can call the training I received "brainwashing" if you want but for me it was simply a natural progression. I've always been aggressive and confrontational and was well before I even thought about joining the Marine Corps. I think a lot of people that join are that way. Still others join the Army for the same reasons.
Pawn @ 89:
Using your criterion, no one who has ever held the office was fit to lead the nation.
Gerald Gibson @ 90:
yeah and ive seen many of thoes boys slobbering and screaming after they recieved all that wholsome boot camp training, i know how it works ive seen it , you have the di pick out one or two boots for ridiculeout of thier company let the others torment the weaker ones it makes them tough , bunch of sadists!
swampfox @ 94:
Thats not what I saw... the ones that were allowed to do anything they were not told to were the DIs. Every one else got tormented by the DIs... heh. And yes that can make you a stronger person. Some times people need to get kicked in the ass up and over that mountian before they believe they really can do it... no matter how much the pain in their legs hurt...get it?
swampfox @ 94:
In my experience I haven't seen that sort of treatment. In fact, I saw the exact opposite. I've seen the DIs and sometimes stronger recruits such as squad leaders or the guide push the weaker recruits to their full extent. If the weaker recruit couldn't do something and they failed then got back up and did it again and suceeded that weaker recruit now feels like he is at the top of the world. He met his challenge or fears and overcame it. That is what the Marines really teach you.
Gerald Gibson @ 95:
like i said bunch of sadists , semper fi mac!
Dubya is now having another one of his uncomfortably brutal, lie filled, blame Democrats for all of his fuck ups, embarrassing "press conferences". I will proudly tell my grandchildren that I never liked this stupid entitled fuck from the first time I heard him speak.
Gerald Gibson @ 95:
Mr. Gibson, that is exactly what I am talking about and I agree.
Even if that's so, the Administration has already given the Democrats their wish...haven't we already failed in Iraq?
Why doesn't C&L report on how Obama recently just said "Afghanistan is a war we must win?" Do people on this blog only have a problem with our troops occupying Iraq? We should not be in afghanistan killing their civilians either.
Left&Left @ 98:
The Coward in Chief is obviously playing politics with the major Obama foreign policy speech scheduled at 10:45 Eastern. I hope Obama just postpones it to this afternoon.
TERROR - 1. Intense, overpowering fear. 2. Anything that instills such fear; a terrifying object or occurrence. 3. The ability to install such fear; terribleness. 4. VIOLENCE TOWARD PRIVATE CITIZENS, PUBLIC PROPERTY AND POLITICAL ENEMIES PROMOTED BY A POLITICAL GROUP TO ACHIEVE OR MAINTAIN SUPREMACY.
The real terrorists office in Washington. The dastardly acts committed on September 11, 2001 were carried out by the Neo Conservatives, represented by George W. Bush, Dick Cheney et. al. The "war" waged by them, Operation Iraqi Liberation (OIL), in the name of "freedom" has been about nothing other than securing peak oil interests in the region and establishing US military primacy on a global basis. This military action has been the smoke screen veiling the real crimes committed on 9/11/01, which remain unsolved/resolved to date. See "Project for the New American Century", Ask yourselves why the perpetrators of the 9/11 "attacks" haven't been brought to justice and why we are still engaged in this trumped up military action in Iraq, which to date has cost more monetarily and has lasted longer than WW II. Read the 9/11 Commissions report and look into the collapse of the WTC Twin Towers and WTC 7. Look at the startling lack of evidence to support the 9/11 Commission's conspiracy theories. Start asking questions and quit being fearful little sheep - it's very unbecoming of Americans. Start acting like the greatest nation on earth. Pull your nonpartisan heads out of your asses and call for the arrest of the President and Vice President for their treasonous acts against the United States and it's Constitution.
Theguy @ 101:
We still have not gotten Osama yet... there is still work to be done.
Joe O. @ 68:
Brawls are different. That's just play time.
Gerald Gibson @ 104:
And we need thousands of US troops(and Obama is proposing we send thousands more) to catch one man? We need to drop high powered explosives on top of people's heads to catch him? The people who committed the acts on 9/11 are dead- having more afghanis and US servicemen die isn't going to bring anyone to justice.
Left&Left @ 93:
With the exception of FDR, a few of our founding fathers, Abe Lincoln, and Teddy, I think you're right. Jimmy Carter seemed to have the ability but wasn't able to create the bridges he needed to be successful. Really, one doesn't have to be perfect by anybody's standards. To become president of the USA, you really should show independence, strong ability to make difficult decisions, in addition to not compromising your values. Honesty is essential as well. It is going to take a revolutionary to truly bring change. Noone in the field is this revolutionary. Ron Paul is going in the right direction, but I still have questions about his motives.
Theguy @ 106:
Well I agree with that in general.. personally I would like to see robots sent into Pakistan... but the details are not really what I meant to discuss... only that Obama (if he becomes president) will not be shooting for peace on earth... not yet anyways...
So - if we "win" - what do we win? Please define "win" and show me one policy/strategy put into place by this administration that has been designed and carried out as a complete success enabling our "victory". Tell me how all of the death and destruction caused by the Neocons/Halliburton for the sake of oil/money demonstrates or supports "winning". As Americans, you should know and understand on a nonpartisan level that the trashing of our Constitution and the freedoms and liberties it stood for is a loss for mankind on a global level. The enactment of The Patriot Acts (I & II), The Military Commissions Act and most all of the policies carried out by an insidious group of villains in this administration is proof positive that we have lost what had been gained since the founding of this republic. And nothing but the fulfillment of personal greed and power by a heinous group of felons perpetrating another "Vietnam" against the sovereign nation of Iraq will ever be achieved or "won". So tell me who, what, when, where and sometimes why we are ever to claim a so-called "victory" in this great national distraction called "The war on terror". A better and more effective "war on terror" would be to arrest those terrorists who gather at our Capitol Bldg. and as true patriots to freedom's cause, restore our once great republic. If you don't agree with this - I don't care. The truth doesn't care what either of us think really. It merely exists.
That's a pretty dodgy definition of treason. A traitor is one who aids their nations's enemies or acts against the interests of his or her nation.
Someone who simply hopes to gain form the follies of a failing regime is not actually a traitor. So in accusing McCain of smearing Obama are you not in fact smearing McCain?
I'm an outsider so its nothing to me but the dirtier the campaign gets, the more amusing the world beyond America finds it.
You expected anything else? What did the self proclaimed first black President do when his wife ran against Obama in the primary?
It is the same game over and over again. Neither political party impresses me anymore.
listen to obamas speach this morning, if you cant see hes just more of the same and a warmonger you havent been listening !
Gerald Gibson @ 108:
well we already use unmanned drones- and have used them in tribal areas of Pakistan already. But why wish to send military in Pakistan? I don't wish to see my relatives in Pakistna dying because of American paranoia. No militia from the tribal areas of Pakistan would care about the United States if we left Afghanistan and stopped trying to interfere in Pakistan's internal affairs.
What's this? People in other countries find America amusing? That's a knee slapping laugh because people in other countries laugh out loud at America and our politics. Ah - but they are the first to beg for help from America when a natural/man-made disaster happens in their country. Then they laugh when we do lend a helping hand because they think they pulled off a big coup.
McCain is a poor choice for the Presidency because we all know he will do whatever GW wants. Obama is a poor choice for the Presidency because he doesn't really tell the American people what he wants to "change". He's an awful lot like Pelosi. I wonder if they are joined at the hip?
So who do we vote for?
How can anyone who's lived through the last 8 years support EITHER political party?
The American people are being FUCKED OVER while the liar politicians play games I still remember from 3rd grade. GROW THE FUCK UP and DO YOUR FUCKING JOBS, or give us our fucking money back, you lying bastards. How's that for being respectful?
This would be true if you'd said: "Anyone who would look forward to American defeat solely for political gain is, by any reasonable definition, a traitor."
But you could wish that the US not win (isn't that the definition of defeat, in Aristotelian logic?) on a battlefield when it was wrong in what it was doing, as it clearly was in Iraq, and not by any means be a traitor. Would I be a bad friend to my friend if I took his keys away when he intended to drive drunk? I don't think so; this is the USA, driven by a drunk.
First let me say that I am an Obama supporter. I despise Bush and McBush. But I'm hearing some weird things from Obama. "Jerusalem should remain unified as the permanent capital of Israel." Then his campaign has to "explain" that. There are times when a politician has to know that he can't say anything and everything to get elected. Some statements have ramifications outside of our country. So McCain's people have every right in a presidential campaign to point these things out. Does Obama mean what he says, or is he just saying things to different groups to get them on his side? I think the country is so anti-Republican that anyone could beat the Republican nominee. We'll see if the Democrats screw it up like the Republicans did between 2001-2006.
Ian Thorpe @ 110:
McCain has helped shield the Saudis for having to pay for 911... no I am not talking about the Cheshire Cat smiling and bought off royals... I am talking about the Saudi people themselves who support AlQeada morally and finacially and in person as they send their sons to die in Iraq to kill Americans... to New York to kill Americans... to many places around the world to kill people that dont agree with their world view. When the Japanese did this we made them pay. When the Saudis did it people like McCain protected them.
Theguy @ 113:
AlQeada .. as simple as that... the tribals are not of issue... We STILL dont have justice for 911... we could have along time ago if we had the balls... we got Iraq instead.
chris [not the troll] @ 115:
Exactly
and like bush, this f#cking a$$hole
will lie, lie, lie.
just 4 more yrs of bush=mcfuckhead
Gerald Gibson @ 119:
The tribal people are the ones that we are fighting in Afghanistan right now! These people don't wear uniforms that say "Al-Qaeda" or "Taliban". The ones who commited 9/11 are DEAD- who are these imaginary people that we are going to continue to use as an excuse to put our troops on OTHER PEOPLE'S SOIL. Pakistan had to deal with bombings in their country- what if they decided that there is Al-Qaeda in the united states and began to occupy new york city and occasionaly launch airstrikes that blew up people's homes. How would this sit with you?
Harry Reid's (mis)quote is shaping up to be the "invented the Internet" of this campaign.
Reid actually said (probably misquoting, myself) that the Bush policies were causing the war to be lost.
Big difference, but not to the Replicants, who are so adept at twisting words, and then having their lie replace the truth in the public debate.
Somebody, please track down the actual quote. I think you'll see that it's very different from what the McCain camp says it is.
Theguy @ 122:
You do know the people high up in the Pakistan ISI was helping AlQeada right? We got phone calls and money being transfered...
You do know that leaders of AlQeada are not dead right?
You do know that the wife of at least one Saudi royal wired money to some of the 911 highjackers in LA right?
You do know that AFTER 911 Saudis were still raising money from the people and then sending that money to AlQeada?
There has been no justice for 911 and not all the people involved are dead... not even close.
Third, to hear the McCain campaign tell it, “The Democratic Party built a political strategy around us losing the war in Iraq.” My only follow-up question: “To whom?” For all the talk about “defeat” from Republicans, I’d love to know who it is the GOP thinks would beat us.
I believe what they are referring to is the defeat of their empirial plans for the multi-national corporations to take over the Iraqi oil fields. This defeat of course would be to the American people who are getting screwed by the use of the US military as a mercenary force for the multi-nationals ambitions. The GOP will never "cut and run" from the war to destroy the American worker. And Iraq is only one of their fronts in this war.
Gerald Gibson @ 119:
take what you can get you little warmonger and like it!
I think McCain should start telling us not to take him at his word…
I certain his polling numbers would improve.
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