Naomi, Debbie, welcome to C&L! And thank you so much for taking the time to do this chat. It's a great honor to have you here.

As we wait for others to join us, let me get the conversation started:

As I said in the intro, The Shock Doctrine has truly colored how I filter the news now. One of the recent events that occurred to me is a perfect example of TSD being employed is this recent push by Pres. Bush for offshore drilling rights as well as in the ANWR. All of us are struggling with high gas prices and by hinting that the price of gas may be alleviated by expanding drilling (even though it won’t) and suddenly, we have people clamoring to defile these pristine and ecologically delicate areas to enrich oil companies. Am I far off in seeing this as just the latest in disaster capitalism?

i love Naomi.

Greetings from Nova Scotia Ms Klein!
I listen to your interviews on The Hour, Democracy Now, etc ... every chance I get.
I really admire how you are able to express concepts and ideas so clearly.
Please keep it up!

Jerry @ 4:

Nicole Belle @ 1:

.......As I said in the intro, The Shock Doctrine has truly colored how I filter the news now.........

What is passed off as news in the US in the first place is a bit of a shock, to see it in contrast with some real investigative journalism, you see what a mad circus it has become.

This is very true, Jerry. I have spent a lot of time abroad and the difference in news coverage is stunning. You truly do see how much propaganda passes for news.

Nicole Belle @ 1:

Naomi, Debbie, welcome to C&L! And thank you so much for taking the time to do this chat. It's a great honor to have you here.

As we wait for others to join us, let me get the conversation started:

As I said in the intro, The Shock Doctrine has truly colored how I filter the news now. One of the recent events that occurred to me is a perfect example of TSD being employed is this recent push by Pres. Bush for offshore drilling rights as well as in the ANWR. All of us are struggling with high gas prices and by hinting that the price of gas may be alleviated by expanding drilling (even though it won’t) and suddenly, we have people clamoring to defile these pristine and ecologically delicate areas to enrich oil companies. Am I far off in seeing this as just the latest in disaster capitalism?

Hi Nicole, thank you for that extremely generous introduction, the fandom is mutual. And everyone, please forgive me in advance for my rate of posting, I’m a terribly slow writer, it took me four years to write the Shock Doctrine…Please take advantage of having Debra with us, she is the research queen.

Nicole, of course you are right that we are currently in the midst of a classic example of disaster capitalism: using a very real crisis – in this case unaffordable energy costs – to push through a magic solution which will actually fix nothing but will enrich the already disgracefully wealthy oil and gas companies. If anything, giving the industry the ability to stockpile more leases only gives them greater control over supply and therefore greater ability to drive up prices. And this is an obvious point but it bears repeating: the oil industry has played the decisive role in landing us in the collective crisis of global warming, a process that is accelerating more rapidly than scientists had previously anticipated. Fouling delicate ecosystems in some of few protected wild places left is precisely the wrong direction for us to be going as a species: it’s suicidal, but for Big Oil it is extremely profitable.

Milton Friedman wrote about having the “ideas lying around” for when the moment of crisis hits. And of course the oil and gas industry had these drilling demands ready. But it was the so-called free market think tanks that have so effectively seized this moment to fire away on all cylinders, blasting all other ideas out of the way. Never has their role as paid propagandists for industry been more transparent.

It’s striking how quickly this strategy works. Just a few weeks ago, the public discussion was focused on alternative energy sources like wind and solar, obscene profits for Big Oil, and the real possibility of imposing a windfall profit tax. Today, thanks to the PR barrage from the oil industry, those ideas have virtually disappeared. Climate change is barely discussed as a crisis in its own right, it’s just the drug addict’s logic: where can we get more oil, regardless of the cost? There is a deeply cynical calculation going on that holds that people put their self-interest before our collective interest so even if they have real environmental concerns about ANWR and offshore and the idea of committing to more oil extraction, they will discard those if things get bad enough for themselves and their families. That’s the opportunity that is being seized, to quote Friedman again, “the politically impossible” has begun to seem “politically inevitable.” And don’t count on the Dems to hold the line here: the polls are shifting fast in favor of drilling and there is every reason to expect them to follow the polls.

What hope is there of getting to a situation where untainted investigative journalism is available to the masses?

Hi Nicole, Thank you for inviting me to join you today. I'll let Naomi discuss oil drilling in the context of disaster capitalism, but I just want to refer people to Naomi's website (www.shockdoctrine.com), where they can find extended resources that accompany The Shock Doctrine.

John Amato @ 14:

Naomi! I am on one knee, ring in hand. Will you marry me? :-)

and that was even before saying C&L was my favorite site!

Sounds a little Straussian to me. This story from 2003 still gives me the creeps. http://www.alternet.org/story/15935/

So?

Ms. Klein,

Thank you for shedding light on something I've wondered about the last few years: why aren't people storming the Bastille.

You suggest awareness of how shock doctrine works as a preventative to it. Is it also possible to stop or reduce shock doctrine's effect by turning its tactics on itself, basically to out-shock the manufactured shock? If so, who can best do this and how?

My thanks.

Naomi,

Please, please, please tell me that Michael Moore (or someone else in the truth-telling sector of the mass media) has bought the movie rights for The Doctrine. This HAS to go on the big screen where the non-readers can get the message.

What Friedman talked about isn't 'disaster capitalism' but using a crisis to advance as public policy a program whose real purpose is to fatten the wallets of the ones pushing 'their program' as 'the solution.'

We're seeing it right now with T. Boone Pickens. The crisis is high energy prices, made worse because it represents a transfer of payments between our country and others. Huge amounts of American dollars are going overseas instead of staying here.

And T. Boone has the solution to the crisis. And 'the solution' is one that benefits him (wind farms he's investing in, natural gas he owns) more than it benefits the public. He has literally hijacked the debate and if he gets the momentum going in his way he'll push the politicians to make his solution public policy. We will then have to live with the consequences of a decision that wasn't done with the public good in mind.

So why isn't Move On or some other organization like the Democratic Party spending the dollars, putting together a team composed of our best and brightest and presenting us with a solution to energy independence that is designed to benefit the public, not any one interest? And if you think T. Boone represents only himself I have some beach front property in Arizona to sell you.

T. Boone is the front man for the movers and shakers of the Republican Party (oil and gas men, large landowners). And if his plan is nonpartisan he wouldn't have reminded us he has always voted Republican. And if his plan becomes public policy, who benefits at election time, McCain or Obama?

The Shock Doctrine is one of the most important books I've ever read. Please grab one as soon as you can....
Now, back to our chat.,...

Naomi - I read your book and continue as a reference to figure out where someone might be coming from when I see them on C-Span or read an article. The entire book is outstanding. Could you touch on the part in your book about how Israel has completely changed their economy almost solely dependant on security and how their stock market has seen a rise everytime violence increases in their region?

Nicole Belle @ 22:

Naomi Klein @ 11:

And don’t count on the Dems to hold the line here: the polls are shifting fast in favor of drilling and there is every reason to expect them to follow the polls.

Actually, this brings me to something that I thought quite a bit about when reading the book. Congress collectively appears to me to be one of the most traumatized subset of the population, far more so than the general population. At least, that’s what I assume when I see them capitulating to the President’s agenda over and over with no regard to popular sentiment and their own approval ratings (9% last time I checked—ouch!). I don’t get the impression from your book that they are active participants in pushing these Friedman policies, but that they’re afraid to move against them. Is that your take?

They are certainly a fearful bunch, and I often wonder how many of them are worried about how warrantless wiretapping has been used against them… That said, the Democratic Party as a whole embraced the ideology of free-trade, privatization, deregulation, with great enthusiasm in the nineties under Clinton. There was always some ambivalence about labour standards, but it was Clinton who was president when shock therapy was being inflicted on Russia and during the Asian economic crisis, two horrific examples of disaster capitalism. It was the Clinton Admin that gave Halliburton its first big general service contract, when Cheney was CEO. In some ways, the Democrats has privatized and outsourced so much in the nineties that all that was left for the Bush team was to sell off the “core” of government – the army, first responders, the border. Sadly, I see these as very much a partnership between the parties and it would take real courage and vision for Obama to change course. It’s possible, but the drift is in the opposite direction.

FYI
If anyone cant get enough Naomi this interview is GREAT!:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zT4Fy-K8mWY

Dont go now tho ... :)

Ms Kline - Thanks for all you do.

Are you aware of the doctrine of "Creative Destruction" ?

From Joseph A. Schumpeter's "Creative Destruction" (1942):

This process of Creative Destruction is the essential fact about capitalism.

And:

The week after the 9-11 attacks Michael Ledeen wrote an article in the National Review entitled Creative Destruction where he states:

.. we should have no misgivings about our ability to destroy tyrannies. It is what we do best. It comes naturally to us, for we are the one truly revolutionary country in the world, as we have been for more than 200 years. Creative destruction is our middle name. We do it automatically, and that is precisely why the tyrants hate us, and are driven to attack us.

Geo @ 32:

What is the blowback the United States can expect for its neoliberal foreign policy?

Blowback isn't something you can predict by definition. It won't be pretty.

Matthew @ 34:

Hello Ms. Klein:

Congratulations on writing one of the most important books of the past thirty years, up there with Zinn's People's History and Chomsky and Herman's Manufacturing Consent.

Can you speak to the issue of labor unions as it pertains to the Shock Doctrine? Such as some examples of how the doctrine is used specifically to weaken unions? Thanks!

Great question. The Shock Doctrine, as you know, is about using crises to push through a whole package of pro-corporate policies under cover of crises and key piece of that policy platform involves breaking unions and weakening their power. This of Thatcher's attack on the coal miner's or Reagan's attack on the air traffic controllers -- both shocks in and of themselves. Fear is the consistent weapon used to argue against fighting for better working standards: "don't like it? We'll move to Mexico" and the Mexicans in the U.S.: "Don't like it: we'll deport you back to Mexico."

Ms. Klein
Alan Greenspan has stated that he let the subprime crisis continue after he saw it coming, because he thought the effects would be widespread and dispersed, admitted he was wrong. Do you think he really is admitting a mistake, or passing off his real reasoning, that economic disaster would mean getting more control? What his successor is asking is essentially a centralization in one agency of the now somewhat scattered powers of regulation of the finance sphere.

Great question. The Shock Doctrine, as you know, is about using crises to push through a whole package of pro-corporate policies under cover of crises and key piece of that policy platform involves breaking unions and weakening their power. This of Thatcher's attack on the coal miner's or Reagan's attack on the air traffic controllers -- both shocks in and of themselves. Fear is the consistent weapon used to argue against fighting for better working standards: "don't like it? We'll move to Mexico" and the Mexicans in the U.S.: "Don't like it: we'll deport you back to Mexico."

I wondered if this was also part of the drive to eliminate public education in New Orleans after Katrina, teacher's unions being a crucial part of the progressive movement in the U.S.

Matthew @ 45:

Great question. The Shock Doctrine, as you know, is about using crises to push through a whole package of pro-corporate policies under cover of crises and key piece of that policy platform involves breaking unions and weakening their power. This of Thatcher's attack on the coal miner's or Reagan's attack on the air traffic controllers -- both shocks in and of themselves. Fear is the consistent weapon used to argue against fighting for better working standards: "don't like it? We'll move to Mexico" and the Mexicans in the U.S.: "Don't like it: we'll deport you back to Mexico."

I wondered if this was also part of the drive to eliminate public education in New Orleans after Katrina, teacher's unions being a crucial part of the progressive movement in the U.S.

Absolutely! New Orleans is one giant Shock Doctrine laboratory, and the residents can tell you how well that works for most.

Nicole Belle @ 47:

Matthew @ 45:

Great question. The Shock Doctrine, as you know, is about using crises to push through a whole package of pro-corporate policies under cover of crises and key piece of that policy platform involves breaking unions and weakening their power. This of Thatcher's attack on the coal miner's or Reagan's attack on the air traffic controllers -- both shocks in and of themselves. Fear is the consistent weapon used to argue against fighting for better working standards: "don't like it? We'll move to Mexico" and the Mexicans in the U.S.: "Don't like it: we'll deport you back to Mexico."

I wondered if this was also part of the drive to eliminate public education in New Orleans after Katrina, teacher's unions being a crucial part of the progressive movement in the U.S.

Absolutely! New Orleans is one giant Shock Doctrine laboratory, and the residents can tell you how well that works for most.

Perhaps merely the epicenter while including the nation as a whole.

Does anyone keep data on the supposed savings of privatization?

Matthew @ 45:

Great question. The Shock Doctrine, as you know, is about using crises to push through a whole package of pro-corporate policies under cover of crises and key piece of that policy platform involves breaking unions and weakening their power. This of Thatcher's attack on the coal miner's or Reagan's attack on the air traffic controllers -- both shocks in and of themselves. Fear is the consistent weapon used to argue against fighting for better working standards: "don't like it? We'll move to Mexico" and the Mexicans in the U.S.: "Don't like it: we'll deport you back to Mexico."

I wondered if this was also part of the drive to eliminate public education in New Orleans after Katrina, teacher's unions being a crucial part of the progressive movement in the U.S.

This is a good point. When the city of New Orleans fired over 4,500 teachers right after the hurricane, the teacher's union was decimated. I spoke with a union executive just a few months ago and he said the union is starting to rebuild its membership by working with teachers at charter schools. Charter schools are public institutions (though often run by for-profit corporations), but charter school teachers are rarely unionized. However, one charter school in New Orleans is now fully unionized and other charter school teachers are seeking out the union as they face lack of job security, insecure benefits and low pay.

Nicole Belle @ 48:

Ruth @ 43:

Ms. Klein
Alan Greenspan has stated that he let the subprime crisis continue after he saw it coming, because he thought the effects would be widespread and dispersed, admitted he was wrong. Do you think he really is admitting a mistake, or passing off his real reasoning, that economic disaster would mean getting more control? What his successor is asking is essentially a centralization in one agency of the now somewhat scattered powers of regulation of the finance sphere.

Good question, Ruth. The sub-prime mortgage crisis is another area I’d like to see you expand on the impact of disaster capitalism. It is a crisis that I think was actually created, if you look at how mortgage companies were encouraged to issue loans to people who might not have qualified in more cautious times.

I've been on this subject a few times at cabdrollery, and see another aspect as the diminution of salaries, disabling potential homeowners even more thoroughly, cutting into more homeowners who should have been capable of paying.

fate2x4 @ 51:

Does anyone keep data on the supposed savings of privatization?

Debbie, this might fall under your purview. I think I saw a study on the "savings" of using Blackwater in Iraq and it turned out that the privatization actually cost us six times more for less accountability. Do you have those stats available on shockdoctrine.com?

just wanted to chime in on how wonderful it is that this type of forum exists. Thank you very much!

Haven't read the book (yet), but quick question:

Can we turn it around? Can disasters be used to impliment positive, _populists_ efforts, if we keep such ideas "alive and waiting", or does disaster necessitate that only ideas that benefit an elite minority can come to fruition?

moonsha @ 31:

Naomi - I read your book and continue as a reference to figure out where someone might be coming from when I see them on C-Span or read an article. The entire book is outstanding. Could you touch on the part in your book about how Israel has completely changed their economy almost solely dependant on security and how their stock market has seen a rise everytime violence increases in their region?

It's pretty detailed stuff and I'm not sure a chat is the best place to expand. But I do hope people read that chapter. A large part of Israel's current boom comes from the success of the counter-terror industry inside Israel, which it has successfully marketed to the rest of the world. But it is not accurate to say that the economy is "almost solely dependent on security," there are many other industries. But a large part of Israel's economic GROWTH is linked to this.

Is there an overall intent in North America to as far as possible eliminate any kind of middle class, and have anyone who has a job so fearful, with no benefits, low salaries or job security that they divorce themselves from any political discourse?
"...Its hard to go to a protest rally when you HAVE to work that day"
...or is this to simplistic?

---thx, chris

mudlock @ 61:

Haven't read the book (yet), but quick question:

Can we turn it around? Can disasters be used to impliment positive, _populists_ efforts, if we keep such ideas "alive and waiting", or does disaster necessitate that only ideas that benefit an elite minority can come to fruition?

we've covered this a little but I can't stress it enough: YES. The crises are telling us that the system is broken and needs fixing and progressives have to have the courage to meet this moment

earl @ 65:

Is there an overall intent in North America to as far as possible eliminate any kind of middle class, and have anyone who has a job so fearful, with no benefits, low salaries or job security that they divorce themselves from any political discourse?
"...Its hard to go to a protest rally when you HAVE to work that day"
...or is this to simplistic?

---thx, chris

If results are the outcomes of intent, then I dare say it is being witnessed.

Naomi Klein @ 54:

Nicole Belle @ 48:

Ruth @ 43:

Ms. Klein
Alan Greenspan has stated that he let the subprime crisis continue after he saw it coming, because he thought the effects would be widespread and dispersed, admitted he was wrong. Do you think he really is admitting a mistake, or passing off his real reasoning, that economic disaster would mean getting more control? What his successor is asking is essentially a centralization in one agency of the now somewhat scattered powers of regulation of the finance sphere.

Good question, Ruth. The sub-prime mortgage crisis is another area I’d like to see you expand on the impact of disaster capitalism. It is a crisis that I think was actually created, if you look at how mortgage companies were encouraged to issue loans to people who might not have qualified in more cautious times.

Absolutely it was created, and the directions came from the very top. This was the centerpiece of Bush’s now discredited “ownership society” idea. Here is a quote from Oct 2004: “We're creating...an ownership society in this country, where more Americans than ever will be able to open up their door where they live and say, welcome to my house, welcome to my piece of property.” It was the president who told the lenders to give away mortgages and don’t worry about whether they can be paid, it was political strategy to try to win low-income and minority voters over the Republicans, plus it created a nice little bubble for speculators.

'Welcome to my piece of property', indeed. Of course, as I mentioned to Nicole, the diminution of salaries disables previously cautious buyers/consumers as well - and recent runups in price are taking the economic legs out from under huge portions of the previously stable, planned, public. So I hear rumblings of an "October surprise" to bring the election back into the GOP hands. Is that paranoid?

fate2x4 @ 70:

Aren't we struggling against those who control the resources and therefore make the rules - and the $400 million Rush Limbaughs who keep up the fear and loathing. Daunting.

One person, and only that you choose to listen to him is his power, that can be taken away very easily, do that for the masses then turn around broken greed & ignorance driven capitalism.

Naomi, I know your time with us is very limited and you'll need to wrap this up soon. Thank you again for taking this time and I think stirring a very interesting topic point for us as we see events unfold. What other current implementations of disaster capitalism do you see right now over the big news items of the day, i.e., the food crisis? Afghanistan? South Africa? Fannie Mae/Freddie Mac? Israel/Iran? What should we be looking for? And perhaps more importantly, what do you suggest we do to voice our resistance?

Brendan @ 68:

earl @ 65:

Is there an overall intent in North America to as far as possible eliminate any kind of middle class, and have anyone who has a job so fearful, with no benefits, low salaries or job security that they divorce themselves from any political discourse?
"...Its hard to go to a protest rally when you HAVE to work that day"
...or is this to simplistic?

---thx, chris

...or just one more happy side effect of the aggressive consolidation of wealth.

I'm going to go with happy side effect, but certainly the attacks on trade unions as political forces was quite deliberate.

Naomi Klein @ 72:

slag @ 64:

Ms. Klein-
You say that the right wing ideology "has discredited itself", a point with which I completely agree. However, it's one thing for that to be the reality and another for people to recognize that reality. Bush still has a 30% approval rating (nearly 1 in 3!), which is beyond my comprehension. We have a media that appears to be rife with neocon ideologues or sympathizers. And a Congress that enables the neocon agenda at every opportunity. It seems like we have an uphill battle to fight in order to achieve real progress in this country. What one or two things should we spend most of our energy on right now? The media? Republicans? Bad Democrats?

I would say building our own institutions -- including media institutions -- that clearly articulate and publicize the kind bold policy alternatives we want to see. For instance, it's tragic how the anti-war movement disappeared into the Obama campaign, there has to be a strong progressive movement, including media, that moves the bar on these issues

There are good people out there (Arthur Kent being one), just have to consolidate a few of them : http://skyreporter.com/

Thanks for the early Birthday present Ms Klein, Debbie Nicole and C&L!

Can't the next Vice-President be a smart young Canadian woman!!!???

Watched you on Democracy Now yesterday. That was a great interview
http://www.democracynow.org/2008/7/15/with_crises_in_fuel_food_housing

Were you surprised by the 4 oil companies that are planning to get no-bid contracts in Iraq?

thank you Ms. Klein and Ms. Levy:

Is it possible that the will be some blowback from the world in addition to the results of the nationally self-destructive policies that are already being executed?

By that I mean, our fiscal policies are destroying the value of our currency and making the prices of globally available resources higher. Adding in the speculation in commodities markets for items like oil and others, we are making these resources costly to the point that there is obvious and quantifiable damage being done to american economic life.

Is there any sense that there is enough or any global resistance to the current american penchant for perpetual war, that economic forces might be brought to bear to cripple the US should we attack or invade Iran?

Naomi Klein @ 72:

slag @ 64:

Ms. Klein-
You say that the right wing ideology "has discredited itself", a point with which I completely agree. However, it's one thing for that to be the reality and another for people to recognize that reality. Bush still has a 30% approval rating (nearly 1 in 3!), which is beyond my comprehension. We have a media that appears to be rife with neocon ideologues or sympathizers. And a Congress that enables the neocon agenda at every opportunity. It seems like we have an uphill battle to fight in order to achieve real progress in this country. What one or two things should we spend most of our energy on right now? The media? Republicans? Bad Democrats?

I would say building our own institutions -- including media institutions -- that clearly articulate and publicize the kind bold policy alternatives we want to see. For instance, it's tragic how the anti-war movement disappeared into the Obama campaign, there has to be a strong progressive movement, including media, that moves the bar on these issues

It is then disturbing to me that there has been an active discouragement from the Obama campaign for people to donate to progressive groups rather than their own groups, under their control--and the distancing from established groups who worked hard to support him (i.e., MoveOn), and it makes me wonder if this neo-liberalism isn't creeping into Obama's camp.

earl @ 74:

One nasty side effect is that it makes it less possible for 'middle class' people to volunteer donate / time / money / resources to worthy causes when they are hustling trying to put "food on their family" as the esteemed Presididn't once said ... This has a huge societal cost ...Americans are known for being generous ...

---chris.

That may be the case in some parts; though to help americans be well know for their critical thinking abilities and worldly views would be a better cause I think.

do you mean things like Think Tanks or more grass roots type stuff or both?
(thanks to you and Debbie for a great chat!)

Naomi Klein @ 28:

fate2x4 @ 18:

I agree with Nicole. I found it hard to read Shock Doctrine. It's appalling the way Milton Friedman economisits have used other countries and their people as labs and lab rats. To what extent do the Milton Friedman economists run the show nowadays?

Well if it's any comfort, I found it pretty hard to write and research at certain points too! Debbie and I were angry a lot of the time, particularly in the torture research, as you can imagine. It's a strange moment for the Chicago School ideology. It has been discredited, and institutions like the World Bank and the IMF try to distance themselves from it. The Cato Institute looks increasingly marginal. Yet so many of the ideas that the Chicago School triumphed are still conventional wisdom, and we see that even in the Obama campaign.

re the pervasiveness of the chicago school ideology . . . what role does the good o' "protestant work ethic" play, which contains the notion that we get/deserve what we work for, but also the manifest destiny-ish idea that, if you can grab it, it's yours?

in my experience, as someone who grew up in poverty but "worked" her way to an ivy league law school, i think that this notion feeds the have-not's acceptance of their oppression ("obviously, i'm doing something wrong, because i'm supposed to be able to feed my family"), while it gives the haves a sense of righteous entitlement

Naomi/ all have you heard
http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/
Bush Invokes Executive Privilege to Shield Cheney’s Role in Outing Valerie Plame
By: emptywheel Wednesday July 16, 2008 8:12 am

Brendan @ 82:

I don't know that it can be done very easily. I'm reminded of the German citizenry that pretended not to know about the camps. There is a significant slice of American society that doesn't want to know, so Rush retains his influence.

I don't think there are any easy answers for the state of things now, that the majority of people in the US have looked for the easy life style and are willing to ignore where that lifestyle comes from or what cost it has to others has set a precedent now.

I would advocate the wake up and the right choice opposed to the easy one, and it's going to be unpleasant and hard work, though better in numbers.

The question I have is: do we have any hope of reformation when movements (such as the anti-war) are so easily co-opted, if they even get off the ground to start with? America has the attention span of a 2 year old right now.

Indeed, social maturity (or the lack of it) is a huge issue.

earl @ 81:

Can't the next Vice-President be a smart young Canadian woman!!!???

There are a few of them up here, I like visiting this place :)

Naomi Klein @ 67:

mudlock @ 61:

Haven't read the book (yet), but quick question:

Can we turn it around? Can disasters be used to impliment positive, _populists_ efforts, if we keep such ideas "alive and waiting", or does disaster necessitate that only ideas that benefit an elite minority can come to fruition?

we've covered this a little but I can't stress it enough: YES. The crises are telling us that the system is broken and needs fixing and progressives have to have the courage to meet this moment

naomi, i think your notion that the shock we are prepared for isn't as effective as it otherwise would be is the key . . . now, if we only get everyone read your book!

Nicole Belle @ 87:

Naomi Klein @ 72:

slag @ 64:

Ms. Klein-
You say that the right wing ideology "has discredited itself", a point with which I completely agree. However, it's one thing for that to be the reality and another for people to recognize that reality. Bush still has a 30% approval rating (nearly 1 in 3!), which is beyond my comprehension. We have a media that appears to be rife with neocon ideologues or sympathizers. And a Congress that enables the neocon agenda at every opportunity. It seems like we have an uphill battle to fight in order to achieve real progress in this country. What one or two things should we spend most of our energy on right now? The media? Republicans? Bad Democrats?

I would say building our own institutions -- including media institutions -- that clearly articulate and publicize the kind bold policy alternatives we want to see. For instance, it's tragic how the anti-war movement disappeared into the Obama campaign, there has to be a strong progressive movement, including media, that moves the bar on these issues

It is then disturbing to me that there has been an active discouragement from the Obama campaign for people to donate to progressive groups rather than their own groups, under their control--and the distancing from established groups who worked hard to support him (i.e., MoveOn), and it makes me wonder if this neo-liberalism isn't creeping into Obama's camp.

Agreed. We have shared and competing needs. I see the reason for the Obama campaign wanting to "control the message", but I also think we need to lay the groundwork of progressive ideas that our candidates can stand on. Combining that ambivalence with the the tendency for Democrats to want to all go in their own direction, I see challenges to building any institutions that have real impact. We all want to be the boss. That's not always conducive to growth.

Kathleen @ 95:

Naomi/ all have you heard
http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/
Bush Invokes Executive Privilege to Shield Cheney’s Role in Outing Valerie Plame
By: emptywheel Wednesday July 16, 2008 8:12 am

In the words of Christy Hardin Smith and Senator Dodd "to the phones"

202-456-1111
Call your Reps

Joe Wilsons response to Bush's latest executive privilege
http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/

CoIntelPro for Pronktastic Victory Over SCLM, DIEBOLD, ESS and SEQUOIA!@85 says
that economic forces might be brought to bear to cripple the US

Besides economic forces of the market, do you think punitive economic forces like treble damages under the False Claims Act will be brought to bear on those who fraudulently sold the disaster capitalist racket of Iraq?

Have you read Vincent Bugliosi's "the Prosecution George W. Bush for Murder"?

Naomi Klein @ 98:

anney @ 88:

Nicole Belle @ 57:

fate2x4 @ 51:

Debbie, this might fall under your purview. I think I saw a study on the "savings" of using Blackwater in Iraq and it turned out that the privatization actually cost us six times more for less accountability. Do you have those stats available on shockdoctrine.com?

And hasn't Obama indicated he'll continue the services of Blackwater et al?

He has not called for pulling out Blackwater and the rest of the mercenaries. He plans to keep the Green Zone intact and he knows that the U.S. can no longer do that without the mercs

what i want to know is: what happens to all those blackwater guys they day that they are pulled out of iraq . . . how we put that genie back in the bottle?

kiotidada @ 92:

This is such an important book that it is difficult to describe: I have urged copies on all of my family and friends. I have read almost all of it but in small increments as in makes me so angry and not much fun to be lived with.

I do not find much to feel hopeful about: a craven congress; lapdog media; corruption abounds.

My question: where do you see hope? Where can we gathe and rally?

Oh and where is the outrage?

Have pitchfork; will travel.

As you know, I travel a lot for my research, which means I am direct contact with communities around the world resisting these policies -- Indigenous groups in Ecuador resisting oil drilling in the Amazon, workers in Argentina who occupied their bankrupt factories and turned them into coops. If I didn't have that first hand experience, I would get very depressed. There are amazing community organizers in all of communities who need out help, and linking with them is a lot more hope-inspiring than just being pissed off.

Naomi Klein @ 98:

He has not called for pulling out Blackwater and the rest of the mercenaries. He plans to keep the Green Zone intact and he knows that the U.S. can no longer do that without the mercs

Indeed, the even more so "unaccountable ones" that are there in bigger numbers that the regular troops anyway.

They guarding of the oil as the US takes it will always be in place unless a 3rd party steps in, and then you'll really have a crisis to push some more "patriotic" things though.

And thanks to everyone who participated in this discussion!

I will be looking forward to looking for a copy of your book in Ireland ms. klein, thank you for participating in the discussion here today, it was quite informative to say the least. I am currently reading Eric Alterman's book "Why we're liberal." and in it he mentions that the recent losses by Democrats in presidential elections is that liberal organizations do not completely support the current democratic candidate, don't you think it is at least appropriate for the moment that the anti-war movement at least fall in behind the Obama camp until he secures the election.

Congratulations Ms. Klein.
Your book is the most revealing and enlightening book I have ever read on the topic of neo-capitalism.
Thank you for your intense research. A thorough exposure such as this, is seemingly difficult to uncover and requires a lot of time and risk.
I must say that during the course of my read, I had to pause constantly, to bring under control, the emotions and frustration that I felt. I can't remember when a book had that much impact on me.
You have managed to expose the Friedman 'economists' for what they really are... greedy, monopolizing, opportunists, while showing that the human cost of this demented "Chicago Boy" philosophy, is beyond what is acceptable for any sane individual.
John Pilgers documentary, "The War On Democracy", touches on many of the issues you raise in the book. For my circle of influence, this film and your book go hand in hand.
Please keep up the fight. I look forward to your next book.

Naomi Klein @ 33:
the DLC is the republican wing of the Democratic party.

CoIntelPro for Pronktastic Victory Over SCLM, DIEBOLD, ESS and SEQUOIA!@114
I have not tread that, but the prospect sounds intriguing if they can attach any profits from the undertaking, in which case, cheney forfeits $800Mil.

Cheney and others who uttered the 935 false statements would face a per lie fine.
Contractors like Halliburton, Bechtel and other contractors would pay damages for defrauding taxpayers of between 30% to 50% of the amount charged for services in Iraq.

Sure would put a dent in W's plan to 'fill up the coffers' once he leaves the White House.

Herzlich Willkommen. I am going to check out the web site now.

t.friedman:oil prices go up.....democracy goes down

there has been mention of ANWR which requires above
ground pipeline on permafrost....this is both costly to do
at today's prices/maintain and to protect against possible terrorists attacks.
if the possible terrorists attacks are sold to the state dept. and white house the oil industry will look for full subsidies.
can you comment on these people/corp. that act and look like free market corporations but they are really socialists putting the populists at financial risk.
I would like to say I appreciate your voice and your work.

it took me four years to write the Shock Doctrine

Naomi,
It was time well spent. A wonderful and very informative read.

The jig is up, the game is over.

Thanks Debbie, that was excellent! Naomi is amazing. She's brilliant and understands how to inform anyone with an open mind about what we're witnessing around the world.

Thanks to Nicole and C&L, excellent job as always!!

A true progressive spokesperson; Naomi is incredibly intelligent, beautiful, and an amazing person - loved her on Thom Hartmann the other day, I hope she gets booked on Countdown with Keith Olbermann.

If you'd like to see more of Naomi Klein:

*Naomi on Real Time with Bill Maher: http://youtube.com/watch?v=jr15RCcrW0Q

*Naomi on Countdown with Keith Olbermann: http://youtube.com/watch?v=qwt2HulqmPI

*Naomi on Charlie Rose: http://www.charlierose.com/guests/naomi-klein

*Naomi on Tavis Smiley: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2chLI6yrKQ

*Learn more at: http://www.NaomiKlein.org/shock-doctrine

I suppose it's not proper to have a frank and open discussion about bank runs and other prima facie evidence of the arrival of the Second Great Depression. This process is really out of control now. The bottom line is the comprehensive bankruptcy of the United States. Brought to you by the Master Manipulators who's only goal now is maintaining the two party plutocracy and ensuring domestic tranquility.

Good Luck

Pierre @ 136:

I know I said it before, I know it is superficial and not really informative but Nomie Klein is SOOOO BEAUTIFULL....

Sorry I mispelled Naomi....excitement I suppose.

I came across another intersting book that tackled the Neo Conservative philosophy. Its title is
"The Conservative Nanny State - [ Traduire cette page ]The Conservative Nanny State. How the Wealthy Use the Government to Stay Rich and Get Richer. by Dean Baker"

it is freeley available online at:
http://www.conservativenannystate.org/

Robert59 @ 27:

What Friedman talked about isn't 'disaster capitalism' but using a crisis to advance as public policy a program whose real purpose is to fatten the wallets of the ones pushing 'their program' as 'the solution.'

We're seeing it right now with T. Boone Pickens. The crisis is high energy prices, made worse because it represents a transfer of payments between our country and others. Huge amounts of American dollars are going overseas instead of staying here.

And T. Boone has the solution to the crisis. And 'the solution' is one that benefits him (wind farms he's investing in, natural gas he owns) more than it benefits the public. He has literally hijacked the debate and if he gets the momentum going in his way he'll push the politicians to make his solution public policy. We will then have to live with the consequences of a decision that wasn't done with the public good in mind.

So why isn't Move On or some other organization like the Democratic Party spending the dollars, putting together a team composed of our best and brightest and presenting us with a solution to energy independence that is designed to benefit the public, not any one interest? And if you think T. Boone represents only himself I have some beach front property in Arizona to sell you.

T. Boone is the front man for the movers and shakers of the Republican Party (oil and gas men, large landowners). And if his plan is nonpartisan he wouldn't have reminded us he has always voted Republican. And if his plan becomes public policy, who benefits at election time, McCain or Obama?

Robert59 @ 27:

What Friedman talked about isn't 'disaster capitalism' but using a crisis to advance as public policy a program whose real purpose is to fatten the wallets of the ones pushing 'their program' as 'the solution.'

We're seeing it right now with T. Boone Pickens. The crisis is high energy prices, made worse because it represents a transfer of payments between our country and others. Huge amounts of American dollars are going overseas instead of staying here.

And T. Boone has the solution to the crisis. And 'the solution' is one that benefits him (wind farms he's investing in, natural gas he owns) more than it benefits the public. He has literally hijacked the debate and if he gets the momentum going in his way he'll push the politicians to make his solution public policy. We will then have to live with the consequences of a decision that wasn't done with the public good in mind.

So why isn't Move On or some other organization like the Democratic Party spending the dollars, putting together a team composed of our best and brightest and presenting us with a solution to energy independence that is designed to benefit the public, not any one interest? And if you think T. Boone represents only himself I have some beach front property in Arizona to sell you.

T. Boone is the front man for the movers and shakers of the Republican Party (oil and gas men, large landowners). And if his plan is nonpartisan he wouldn't have reminded us he has always voted Republican. And if his plan becomes public policy, who benefits at election time, McCain or Obama?

Robert, you miss the point. Of course, individual businessmen and businesswomen are going to act in their own self-interest to make money. The way I understand the Shock Doctrine, however, is that (1) many of these individuals and companies have found their way to providing the goods and services for "disaster capitalism" and the military industrial complex, i.e., bidding for government contracts to service wars and other disasters; and (2) the right wing and the Republican Party has become a captive of these business interests to such an extent to where ideology meets commerce and we have a Bush Administration that appears to make every decision primarily to benefit these relatively few business cronies rather than the country as a whole.

Phantom @ 86:

I have a question: in your book, you describe how followers of Friedman use the shock doctrine to push through policies that are immensely unpopular. These policies, to me, seem to reflect the core values of capitalism, namely that markets can be trusted to keep the economy on it's feet. Isn't your book a criticism of not just disaster capitalism, but of capitalism in general?

This was my reading of the book, one cannot confront disaster capitalism without confronting capitalism itself.

The Shock Doctrine should be required reading for everyone. (Even if it did take me 3 months to read. GRRRRRR).

Yellow Elephant Safari @ 25:

Naomi,

Please, please, please tell me that Michael Moore (or someone else in the truth-telling sector of the mass media) has bought the movie rights for The Doctrine. This HAS to go on the big screen where the non-readers can get the message.

John Cusack was inspired by Naomi's book as well as Jeremy Scahill's book on Blackwater when he co-wrote the screenplay for War, Inc.

Democratic Party Unity (aka right wing hater) @ 131:

Thanks Debbie, that was excellent! Naomi is amazing. She's brilliant and understands how to inform anyone with an open mind about what we're witnessing around the world.

Thanks to Nicole and C&L, excellent job as always!!

A true progressive spokesperson; Naomi is incredibly intelligent, beautiful, and an amazing person - loved her on Thom Hartmann the other day, I hope she gets booked on Countdown with Keith Olbermann.

I'll look for her on Countdown. Definitely a "special report" moment for a special lady..

Naomi Klein @ 90:

Nicole Belle @ 75:

Naomi, I know your time with us is very limited and you'll need to wrap this up soon. Thank you again for taking this time and I think stirring a very interesting topic point for us as we see events unfold. What other current implementations of disaster capitalism do you see right now over the big news items of the day, i.e., the food crisis? Afghanistan? South Africa? Fannie Mae/Freddie Mac? Israel/Iran? What should we be looking for? And perhaps more importantly, what do you suggest we do to voice our resistance?

Thanks Nicole and everyone else. I will need to get going in a couple of minutes. It's been great chatting with you, and very exciting to see the level of debate.

We should all be looking closely at the food crisis as a striking example of disaster capitalism. Politicians are using the food crisis to call for more genetically modified foods, even though this technology is extremely controversial, especially in Europe. The justification is that GM products boost crop yields, but there isn't any evidence that this is the case, and in fact, they often decrease yields.

It’s no surprise that these agribusiness firms are making record earnings. Monsanto's profits have nearly doubled and Cargill’s net earnings are up 86 per cent. And GM seed companies like Monsanto and Syngenta are even patenting seeds that are supposed to protect crops against increasingly frequent climate change disasters, like droughts and floods.

In terms of the mortgage crisis, the main housing aid bill working its way through Congress bails out mortgage lenders at taxpayer expense and provides little in the way of affordable housing. The Washington Post recently revealed that key provisions of this bill were proposed to Congress by Credit Suisse and Bank of America. Democrats in Congress are attaching these corporate-friendly provisions to the must-pass bailout for Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac in order to ensure their passage. So once again, we see a crisis being exploited by well-connected elites to advance their narrow interests.

There is a really good piece by Bill Greider that shows a range of other ways that Congress could respond. Including nationalizing Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac.

We also have a blog on shockdoctrine.com featuring key news stories about Disaster Capitalism in Action.

In terms of what we look out for when crises hit, read the business press to see who stands to benefit from the upheaval and which corporations are best poised to take advantage of the situation. Second, watch out for the emergence of previously discredited and unpopular policies (think drilling in ANWR or privatizing social security, as well as GM seeds). Certain ideas never seem to go away, they just get dusted off when the next disaster strikes. Check out conservative blogs to figure out what they're pushing before the full right-wing offensive has been launched. Finally, we must be ready with alternative solutions. It’s not enough to combat right-wing policies, we need to have our own proposals ready to go.

A must watch on on genetically modified foods is The Future of Food http://www.netflix.com/Movie/The_Future_of_Food/70038794?trkid=222336&ln... If you remember just one thing from this documentary (about chemical giant Monsanto) is that in order for traits to be added to foods a virus must be introduced to the seed nucleus. A virus. Think carefully about this and some of the unknown sources for food contamination in this country. The most recent is tomatoes, one of the most altered crops, (at least by Seminis, Inc., now a subsidiary of Monsanto).

Another recent article is from Vanity Fair: Monsanto's Harvest of Fear http://www.netflix.com/Movie/The_Future_of_Food/70038794?trkid=222336&ln...

The author was interviewed on Democracy Now! in May. http://www.democracynow.org/2008/5/6/monsantos_harvest_of_fear

I'm not sure why there isn't more coverage on Monsanto, but the food crisis is definitely one that will be exploited by them, if they can pull it off.

Monsanto is also part of the whole time capsule of seeds project, which is really scary if you think about it.

The next crops will be fruits and vegetables with pharmaceutical qualities - this truly is the plan.

Hopefully, we'll keep this subject in the forefront.