Harper's Magazine: Bush Admin. Worried About Possible Criminal Prosecution
By SilentPatriot Tuesday Jul 15, 2008 9:45am
In a fascinating interview with Scott Horton, investigative journalist Jane Mayer talks about her new book, The Dark Side, which chronicles the Bush administration's dealings with torture, and offers some incredible (and depressing) insight into her superb reporting over the past few years.
The reaction of top Bush Administration officials to the ICRC report, from what I can gather, has been defensive and dismissive. They reject the ICRC’s legal analysis as incorrect. Yet my reporting shows that inside the White House there has been growing fear of criminal prosecution, particularly after the Supreme Court ruled in the Hamdan case that the Geneva Conventions applied to the treatment of the detainees. This nervousness resulted in the successful effort to add retroactive immunity to the Military Commission Act. Cheney personally spearheaded this effort. Fear of the consequences of exposure also weighed heavily in discussions about whether to shut the CIA program down. In White House meetings, Cheney warned that if they transferred the CIA’s prisoners to Guantanamo, “people will want to know where they have been—and what we’ve been doing with them.” Alberto Gonzales, a source said, “scared” everyone about the possibility of war crimes prosecutions. It was on their minds.
I strongly suggest you read the entire interview, but this paragraph really stuck with me:
The sadistic treatment of Abu Zubayda also seems to have affected him psychologically in bizarre ways. Two sources said that he became sexually obsessive, masturbating so much his captors feared he would injure himself. One described him as acting “like a monkey at the zoo.” A physician was called in for consultation—one of many instances in which health professionals have played truly disturbing roles in this program. (I personally feel that the medical and psychological professionals who have used their skills to further a program designed to cause pain and suffering should be a high priority in terms of accountability. It has long been a ghastly aspect of torture, worldwide, that doctors and other medical professionals often assist. The licensing boards and professional societies are worthless, in my view, if they don’t demand serious investigations of such unethical uses of science.)
Mayer also says that although Bush officials feared prosecution and frantically sought protection via legislation like the atrocious Military Commissions Act, lawsuit are not likely because many of those in Congress who would spearhead such legal actions are themselves compromised:
An additional complicating factor is that key members of Congress sanctioned this program, so many of those who might ordinarily be counted on to lead the charge are themselves compromised. [...] My guess is that the real accountability for President Bush will be in the history books, not the court room.
Glenn Greenwald pounces and tears apart the Democrats for their complicity in Bush's torture regime/war crimes.
Login or Register to post comments.
Bugliosi's comment....it should apply to every member of congress who agreed on these crimes. DO IT!!!!!!!!!!Start setting this country right.
They SHOULD be worried.
*
Although America is angry with Republicans and Bush Admin, let's not forget Democrats are accomplices...
Voting Democrat Is like choosing the lesser of two evils
My personal opinion: The ONLY way the United States can redeem itself is by putting these war criminals on trial. If we don't do it, screw us.
The administration will get away with the whole business. If anything happens at all it will likely be the scapegoating of a few lower level attorneys such as John Yoo et al. Worst case for the administration : in an extreme case they might be forced to throw Alberto Gonzales to the mob.
Bush, Cheney, Rice and Rummy will be around to assist with future Republiscams.
this could easily explain Pelosi and a bunch of other Democrats, especially if they kept their silence after being told of this. and it would be extremely within the character of the boosh admin to 'compromise' someone they cannot corrupt.
They should be worried because they are guilty.
We have a criminal government. Mafiosi running the executive and their bagmen (and women) running congress.
The heinous Military Commissions act and the equally revolting FISA vamp are only two features of a grisly history.
john @ 3:
As long as we allow this stupid two party system it always has been and always will be. Having briefly experienced the "inside the beltway" mentality I can assure you that it can not be any other way. It's an "us" against everyone outside the beltway mindset.
Three things have to be done to change this.
1. Term Limits
2. Viable alternative parties to challenge the Dems/Repukes
3. Elimination of the "winner takes all" system
these chickenshit chickenhawk dickwhistles deserve to be tarred and feathered and ridden to paraguay on a railroad tie.
No incoming president of any party isa gonna begin the precedent of prosecuting the departing one, no matter their crimes.
they'll walk away clean. Gay-RON-fuukin-TEED chers...the whole corrupt, fascistic crowd of 'em...
If Barry does make it kinto the ShiteHouse, the first thing he needs to do is issue a government-wide edict summarily firing anybody with any degree from Liberty U, Regency U, Hillsdale College, Oral Roberts, Bob Jones, and any and every Xian degree mill...
everything noxin wanted to do, these guys accomplished, except even noxin did not hate this country the way these [*****]s do
woody, tokin librul @ 9:
excellent creativity in the name-calling. and I concur.
not gonna happen. get used to it -- this country no longer abides by the rule of law.
There is no way any political fixes will be enacvted as long as the two parties hold sway, because any attempt to reform the system would automatically reduce their power, and the Iron Law of Institutions dictates that the powerful in any institution will tolerate the diminishment of the power of that institution as long sa it does not effect their power within the institution.
But, were there to be any reforms, the first should be proportional voting, and instant run-offs. The second should be doubling the size of Congress, thereby diluting the power of the entrenched.
But that's pipe-dreams, because nothing is gonna reform the Village System in DC. The only hope we have is to work locally. The problem with that is--apart from the fact that hope sucks--is that there probably isn't enough time to accomplish the needed reforms before the inevitable collapse of the entire system...
john @ 3:
True, look at FISA
Bush wanted, REP supports (to keep us safe) and the DEM cave (p*ssies)
That's how government violates you rights
How could they be tried for war crimes? Who, in the USA, would actually turn these cowardly monsters over to the proper authorities? The ass-hat Dumbocrats can't even compel Dingleberry Doughboy Karl Rove to testify before the congress!
fuck voting.
vote with ur money and buy alotta bullets.
as a lifetime independent voter i can easily say....Of course most of the democrats are just as guilty...1st place to look is to see who voted for FISA...there are very few left in congress who aren't accomplishes in this fiasco...oh yea, and Obama voted for FISA....what a sad day...and now some of you are saying...he will correct this mess once he gets president....do you really believe that? i mean come on, who is he kidding...you are all FOOLS so long as you keep voting for this FAILED 2 party system...as it really is just one party..and we need not look any farther than FISA to prove that....one party voted FOR FISA...
and you all want to keep voting for the democrats? both these parties need a serious cleaning out or a goodbye...
i've never voted for either party in a major election yet was considering a vote for obama this election but his vote on FISA changed my mind...so long as america keeps voting for both these parties...then the problems will only grow LARGER as we have seen in the past decade...
how much more pain do americans need before everyone WAKES up to the mess both parties have created...in part by getting all of you to "believe" in some sort of magical change? ha! you're fooled again...
Chicken Hussein Little - NOT!! @ 8:
Along those lines, I think that
4. Instant Runoff Voting
Would help with #2 and #3, and
5. Campaign Finance Reform
which publicly finances, and ONLY publicly finances, all elections. The money not
wastedspent on these billion-dollar campaign can go towards paying down the national debt and building hospitalsThank God for people like Jane Mayer who can write and get published such a book! Will this be enough to eventually break open the horror that is the Bush administration and a complicit Congress? Nobody expects the wheels of justice to grind quickly in such grave matters, but keep sending money to the ACLU and other organizations that have no interest in anything but the truth, prosecution and conviction for the perpetrators and their allies, and justice for the victims of torture AND us Americans whose national soul has been besmirched.
We will be whole again if that happens, not before.
And Obama joined the guilty Democratic leadership when he voted for the FISA bill. I was suspicious from the moment it became obvious that Nancy Pelosi was supporting Obama, long before she made it public -- I think he'd made promises to the top Democrats then, though we'll not know what they were. Let's see how he extricates himself from THIS -- he's involved, too, through his support of the FISA fraud. Will he lead a call for justice, or will he remain silent, following them to a dark end?
Dont forget the destruction of possible evidence (videotapes) ...
Bunch of Keyser Söze's, they'll skate for sure...
The only hope that We the People have left to right the wrongs done in our names is for the International Criminal Courts and the United Nations to charge the whole lot of them with war crimes. In a just world that would happen but, unfortunately, we do not live in a just world. Obama will not change that and I truly believe that the downward spiral for this country cannot be changed by anyone until the total collapse.
We have had the most horrifying eight years under the Bush/Cheney regime. They have taken so much power for themselves and the office. Does anyone really believe that Obama will relinquish any of that power? Are we really so naive to think the people will come first because we put a Democrat in that office and that Democrat will have the power or the inclination to fix things? They have all sold their souls to the Corporate Masters a long time ago.
What a coincidence! My blog entry today:
Genocide Charges Against Bashir Should Have Bush Worried. (a look at the list of charges)
This unaccountability of the ones in charge is why revolutions start. They should know better as it has been shown in history time and time again.
I just wonder how many here in the US are ready for a regime change.
It aint over yet kids:
"Court: US Can Jail Civilians Indefinitely
A federal appeals court has ruled President Bush can order the indefinite jailing of civilians imprisoned in the United States. The five-to-four decision effectively reverses last year’s ruling that the administration cannot label US residents “enemy combatants” and jail them indefinitely without charge. The ruling came in the case of the only person still held as an enemy combatant on US soil. Ali al-Marri was arrested six years ago at his home in Peoria, Illinois, where he lived with his wife and five children. He was initially charged with credit card fraud and lying to federal agents. But in June 2003, President Bush declared him an enemy combatant and ordered him into military custody. He has spent the last four years in solitary confinement at a Navy brig in Charleston, South Carolina. Al-Marri’s attorney Jonathan Hafetz said, “This decision means the president can pick up any person in the country—citizen or legal resident—and lock them up for years without the most basic safeguard in the Constitution, the right to a criminal trial.”
In a fascinating interview with Scott Horton, investigative journalist Jane Mayer talks about her new book, The Dark Side...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d78K4rCEfAo
No legislation can protect you from 'villagers with torches and farm instruments'!!
Mickxotic @ 15:
I'll turn them over. Just give me the opportunity.
Toast all their nuts over a roaring fire.
20 earl Says: Dont forget the destruction of possible evidence (videotapes) …
Remember when the only videotapes we had to worry about was Bubba's private stash from the Adam & Eve catalogue?
"(I personally feel that the medical and psychological professionals who have used their skills to further a program designed to cause pain and suffering should be a high priority in terms of accountability.)"
As usual we pick the low hanging fruit. The people who set the program in motion are the most accountable, let's prosecute them.
Let's see if an October surprise doesn't send this down the memory hole.
There's nothing I wouldn't put pass this criminal cabal to hang on to power
and scare the sheep.
earl @ 24
That's going to make the revolution by the people a little tricky then. What with all the new detention facilities around the country and Black Water and all other mercenary groups now working for our government. Think Obama will change all that? Nah, me either. Besides, we Americans are just too selfish and lazy and have too much stuff to be bothered with something so difficult as saving our country and planet.
The Democrats have been accomplices since day one. It makes you wonder how these blogs like Dkos keep a straight face. Yeah they push for "more better Dems", but at every turn the current Dems stick it to Americans.
john @ 3:
That is exactly what it is, to varying degrees. I highly recommend reading History of Ashes, the story of the CIA. All of this has gone on before, just after WWII when the Cold War started, outsourcing torture, you name it.
Right now I can't see a Democrat standing up for anything based on their behavior the past years, but who knows once a Dem is POTUS and Congress turns even more Dem.
i think that's bs. rich people pay their way out of everything. EVERYTHING.
One more piece of the puzzle:
There were TWO FISA bills at one time, the one from the Intelligence Committee that included immunity, and the other from the Judiciary Committee that did not:
http://www.cdt.org/security/20071204_FISA_insider_guide.pdf
We can certainly understand now why the Intelligence Committe version made it to the floor and was voted into law, can't we?
This is horrible. No wonder nothing is moving forward including impeachment. Pelosi is scared to death. She needs to go. I said very little about her previously but after reading these articles it has become clear to me that she is complicit in committing crimes.
Nothing's going to happen. Prosecuting Bush and his accomplices for their crimes would require a special prosecutor and a populace that actually gives a shit. For all that Commander Clueless has a 23% approval rating, there's still a surprising amount of apathy, helped along by a media that isn't even reporting Kucinich's articles of impeachment.
Having a body like the Hague put the ol' Decider on trial means we'd have to extradite him. And you can bet that suddenly, we'll be emphasizing our sovereignity and right to deal with these criminals ourselves. Then turn over and go back to sleep.
linda @ 12:
They're going to skate, for sure. The only thing that will 'bring the evil do-ers to justice' is public action, and the right and left hate each other so much in this country that they'll never work together to bring down the government.
Hmmm... I wonder if that's an accident...? Now we hate each other as much as we hate them, effectively paralyzing the opposition.
.....Four members of Congress met in secret for a first look at a unique CIA program designed to wring vital information from reticent terrorism suspects in U.S. custody. For more than an hour, the bipartisan group, which included current House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.), was given a virtual tour of the CIA's overseas detention sites and the harsh techniques interrogators had devised to try to make their prisoners talk.....
And then as soon as Nancy Pelosi was sworn in as Speaker of the House, she took a trip to Syria. What was THAT really all about?
earl @ 24:
And you are DE-PHUQING-Lusional if you think any subsequent president, Obama or MCCaint, will voluntarily walk away from that power.
Obama will use it just as radically as McCaint or the Busheviks, even. No president has EVER ceded back to the People any power they have seized in a crisis--except Washington...and neither of these corrupt, corpoRat ass-clowns is within a thousand parsecs of being a "washington."
Reading these posts is really bumming me out. It is obvious that the majority of democrats are aiding in the entire fiasco. How else could one explain the fact that they refuse to impeach/imprison all the crooked f**ks that make up the Bush administration. Their inaction clearly shows that they fear that any thorough investigation of the crimes committed would show that they have been enablers of these crimes.
Being Canadian, I can't pretend to understand your political system but my guess is that you can only vote for either the Republican, Democrat or Independent of your choice that has already been predetermined for you by each party via some sort of nomination process run by selected individuals. The only way the US political system could be improved quickly would be if you could vote first to select a member to run for each party in each state and then select the party. Because as it is, it seems that you really are only voting for the lesser of 2 evils now.
At least if there was a clear landslide for the democrats in the next election this could signal that the American public is at least sick of the crooked bastards that are now running the country and possibly compel the next government to start cleaning up its act. I can't see this happening though as greed is likely much more rewarding than integrity. The more things change, the more they stay the same. Man, that is a depressing thought.
How many times have we heard Republicans, when introducing a new Draconian Law, say things like "if you haven't done anything wrong then you have nothing to fear from this law" ??
That's what they tell us The Citizens, but when it comes to THEM, well they need to place laws to protect our troops from International Courts.
My ass, they are afraid of being held accountable. The "troops" have done their job excellently, but the Leadership has been an abysmal failure.
We probably wont see any justice in this as she notes, because so many on both sides of the Isle are complicit. But we should make the pursuit even if their is no finality to it.
People like Cheney and his lot should be concerned, very concerned. I wont be surprised if they are never able to leave the shored of the US again. The best WE can do, is keep these stories in the forefront, don't let them die.
Thank you C&L for putting this up, since most of us don't get Harpers.
@ 43: Bangkok Bob: the interview is up on Horton's harper's blog: No Comment
DBoucher @ 42:
Yes, VERY depressing.
The only reason not to prosecute Bush, Cheney et al. is national pride. By any legal standard they have committed identifiable crimes. Bush admitted doing so to Scott McClellan on Air Force One. Cheney's reply was, "So?"
It's a matter of national hubris, and nothing more. Like a corporation that is "too big to fail," the Bush administration feels it's "too powerful to be called to account." A few short years ago Bush said, "We don't torture." When that was proved false he retreated to an arrogant posture of acting as if it didn't matter.
It does matter. The question is, "Do we have the humility as a nation to say so?"
One thing I think interesting is how hostile Mad Magazine has been to boosh for several years.
They're headquartered in New York, and probably know people killed during 9-11.
And often their "jokes" on boosh are far too pointed to just laugh off.
woody, tokin librul @ 44:
Thanks Woody, yes, I had been there and read it. I had gone to the Magazine itself to see the article after C&L made me notice it existed.
Site monitor, delete most of this thread. The republicans commit the crimes and everyone turns around and attacks the democrats. Up is down, black is white. WTF?
What bothers me (not the most, but very deeply) about all of this is that the torture techniques employed by this administration were copied from the Communists methods for forcing people to sign FALSE CONFESSIONS!
Is this incompetence or sadistic cruelty?
What possible point does any of this have if the stated goal (detering terrorism by gathering intelligence) is already known to be unachievable due to the process?
Interesting development on Monday. The prosecutor at the ICC at the Hague issued a request for international arrest warrant for the president of Somalia, for war crimes, geneocide and crimes against humanity. Like the US, Somalia does not recognize the ICC. Like Miloscevic, they do not recognize their authority.
The war criminals in Bush's regime do not recognize the ICC, but it won't do them any good if international arrest warrants eventually get issued. Even if nothing happens in the US because the parties that should have been preventing such things were instead participating in them, the international community may still exercise its prerogative to subject the criminals to justice.
Bush and his cronies may think that they can go to ground in Dubai or Paraguay, but they should keep in mind the example of Adolph Eichmann.
I, too, am of the mind that some of the most heinous of the criminals are the physicians, psychologists and psychiatrist who have lent their energies to these evil works.
.....Pelosi is scared to death. She needs to go.....
Maybe it's love and she's not thinking straight.
Ron @ 49
If you really can't see that the Democrats have been complicit in this then you are delusional or you haven't studied the issues. The republicans could nevery have achieved this level of power and done these things that devalue or constitution and our country without Democrats being either complicit, silent while it happened or both. There are very few real Democrats with integrity left in Washington and it's looking like Obama isn't one of them with his vote for FISA after telling us he would filibuster any vote that gave immunity. Democrats are not required to be sheep for the party.
And as members of the human race we must demand their prosecution.
It is way past time for Americans to put their house in order.
1.) All Bush Administration officials should be arrested, investigated, and put on trial for War Crimes, Crimes against the Constitution, War profiteering, and general douchebaggery. If found guilty, they should be hung from the neck until dead, in public, on the Washington Mall as a lesson to all future fascists.
2.) All those who ordered and participated in torture should themselves be publicly waterboarded everyday for the next six months on the Washington Mall.
3.) CEO's (telecoms, Blackwater, et al) who have been complicit in these crimes should be imprisoned and their family fortunes forfieted to charitable groups or to the US Treasury to recoup our enormous losses.
4.) Any fucking democrats (Pelosi, et al) who have aided and abbetted this nightmare should be impeached and imprisoned as well.
All of the aforementioned are traitors and are extremely dangerous. They should be dealt with the same way the criminals at Nuremburg were dealt with. With extreme predjudice.
Wake the fuck up America!!!
55 bushcriminalscumbag Says: It is way past time for Americans to put their house in order.
Here in Texas their used to be a topless housecleaning company.
Bluesage @ 53:
I strongly agree. Discounting the crimes of members of Congress because they are suppossedly liberal is a big mistake. In fact complicity in this particular crime negates and removes the concept and label of "Liberal" from their very souls.
Bluesage @ 53:
Possibly, but the blog is about who commited the crimes. We don't know who might have known about what, but we do know that the republicans committed crimes.
52 Centrocitta Says: …..Pelosi is scared to death. She needs to go…..
Maybe it’s love and she’s not thinking straight.
Queen Nancy's a lesbo?
A quote from that two-faced scum Conyers:
Oh really? If you have a long list of people eligible for impeachment, then why are you sitting there with your head stuffed up your ass rather than fulfilling your Constitutional duties? Even worse, why are you actively obstructing those who are trying to do their duty?
The answer, as nicely pointed out by Greenwald, is that many top democrats are complicit in the illegal conduct and have a major conflict of interest in supporting impeachment. These turds need to be removed along with Bush.
It's time to purge congress. (D) or (R) makes little difference anymore. They are all crooks and a threat to civil rights and the rule of law.
bushcriminalscumbag @ 55:
You are obviously joking.
You don't punish war criminals by commiting crimes against them.
Read Glenn Greenwald's article at Common Dreams.
No need to fool with Salon's "site pass".
Common Dreams: Glenn Greenwald - The Motivation for Blocking Investigations Into Bush Lawbreaking
Greenwald goes on to name the compromised members of Congress (at least some of them) and tells how they are compromised.
Chilling.
All these CongressPeople evidently believed the "official" version of the 9-11 attacks and were then complicit in the ensuing hysteria and sacrifice of bedrock values that date back to the Magna Carta.
Fools.
Dangerous fools.
john @ 3:
Yeah i'm upset about FISA
But Between McCain (who stance is in rotate) and Obama
Im for Obama
"Between a rock and a hard place"
The thing that kills me the most about the Democrats complicity in all this was their motivation: To Keep Their Jobs!
There was an excellent interview with Jane Mayer yesterday on Fresh Air. It was eye opening.
Deport John Yoo. He's a Naturalized traitor. Being naturalized might apply to Gonzales as well. Deport him too.
xoites
But isn't that the most important thing for most of them - just keep their jobs, their perks and their gravy train? Public servants my ass - we now have public parasites.
Not to worry, Bush, Cheney and the rest of the Gang will look good in ORANGE
.....“Nancy Pelosi has impeachment ‘off the table,’ but that’s off her table, it is not off John Conyers’ table,” the Michigan Democrat said during a town hall meeting in his district Aug. 28. “Nancy Pelosi, who I actually supported, cannot prevent me from introducing an impeachment resolution against, well I’ve got a long list of people who are eligible.”.....
Sounds like the love bug hasn't hit Conyers.
xoites defends Constitution @ 50:
If you've committed a crime and can get someone else to confess, you go free, right?
The Bush administration is simply covering their ass for their complicity in 9-11.
Bluesage @ 67:
Apparently it is more important than anything.
"My guess is that the real accountability for President Bush will be in the history books, not the court room."
NO FUCKING WAY can I stand to believe this is all that will happen to these evil bastards.
It would be really nice if a foreign power under orders from The Hague would track these beasts down after January and bring them to justice in orange jumpers and heavy chains.
Carol @ 68:
Agent?
Another thread about Bush's terrible crimes and another chorus of cynics excusing the whitehouse becasue they know nothin' gonna happen. It's a fine line between a cynic and closet republican these days. I've got to stop reading these depressing threads.
MountainMan23 @ 70:
Covering their asses two ways:
1) Shifting the blame to someone else.
2) Scrambling the minds of those who actually were involved in 9-11 so that their knowledge of Bush administration complicity never surfaces.
xoites defends Constitution @ 64:
Like many under worked 'guvment employees; "Your job is to keep your job."
xoites defends Constitution @ 61:
Take away the hangings and I think we have that party planned out just fine.
xoites defends Constitution @ 50:
maybe neither, or--more likely--a combination of both to achieve the third: rationale.
false confessions fit nicely into the cheney-world-view. they help with the fear mongering and to 'show' faux-efficacy of using torture as a means to elicit information.
and, not to mention, the admin's strategy and tactics are, by design (imho), enacted to create more terrorism, not reduce it.
what 'terrorism' allows for in the neoliberal world is too precious to get rid of. it helps us prop up dictators, reduce freedom, resource-grab, etc.
Before Bush came to power it was unimaginable that a President of the United States of America would ever be considered a war criminal or connected to the torture of prisoners who had not received any form of trial.
Bush has brought shame on a fine country.
I've been saying for years that the Military Commissions Act was nothing less than a Conspiricy to Obstruct Justice through Legislation.
All those who voted for this travesty of Justice are Criminals; that is why Pelosi refuses to Impeach. Many Top long time Republicans are now retiring from Congress. They are taking their pensions before they can be prosecuted and lose them.
I equate the Dems who have known about this illegal program since its inception with Jews who collaborated with the Nazis.
Harper’s Magazine: Bush Admin. Worried About Possible Criminal Prosecution
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-P9FjArlxs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BnejNGprm3I
uk visa @ 79:
Need i remind you of Richard Nixon who waged a secret war in Cambodia and Laos and employed Tiger Cages made in Texas under contract to the Navy and used them in South Vietnam to detain and torture members of the Peace Movement?
Or Ronald Reagan how trained "Contras" in the methods of torture at the "School of the Americas" at Fort Bragg and sent Death Squads into El Salvadore to hack civilians to death?
Sorry this has been an ongoing problem for some time now.
http://www.heritage.org/research/HomelandDefense/bg2085.cfm
The attempt on this list about destroying the Brooklyn Bridge was stopped due to the tactics at Guantanamo Bay and the Patriot Act.
If this attack would have gone through, and any of the others that were stopped by these methods, many many people would be screaming that the administaration had not done enough to stop terrorism.
ysbaddaden @ 47:
Now we're talking! Screw that poncey New Yorker rag.
MAD has always spoken the language which I can understand..
Phil @ 84:
Sorry, but the Heritage Foundation is not a news source. It is a propaganda tool.
I seriously doubt there was a plot to blow up the bridge and further doubt anyone who believes anything the Heritage Foundation says has any sense of right and wrong or any sense at all.
john @ 3:
If DD fell off the map tomorrow I wouldn't be sorry.
*
Trittydi @ 87:
Ooooops. DC.
*
your nothing but a little lying ass bitch....fishbone
This is the root of the dems rollover on FISA. Once investigators start digging, the dems will come out as accessories throughout. One party, two factions.
MountainMan23 @ 62:
YES INDEED!! I left the USA because I could not stomach the sight of Dem "leadership" caving to bushthugs -- even though every thinking person on the planet knew that bushthugs had already a) stolen the 2000 election and
b) aided/abetted/facilitated 911.
(hussein)moondancer @ 90:
Scott Ritter recently explained to Amy Goodman that the Right and Left Wing are both appendages of the same bird. I'd never heard it put quite that way before and it was a real revelation to hear.
Robert Lockwood Mills @ 46:
We need to send representatives to Washington that aren't beating down the doors of the War Room to get in. That aren't walking aroud 24/7 with both hands down the front of their pants - or pantsuits.
And yes - there are plenty of complicit Dems and that can't be left unaddressed either.
*
My question to all of you (croosk and liars contributors as well) is whether any person acting on behalf of the government, believing to be protecting our freedom/liberty/way of life has the right to enact a retroactive law that protects him/her from torture/murder (remember Bagram AFB in Afghanistan ?) ??? Please tell me if our perceived security is worth the life or lives of others that are poor and far removed from you... do you want to bear that burden ? As we all do now, having killed thousands abroad for the purported belief that we are safer... are we ?
I would not be the least bit surprised if George W. Bush arranges a presidential pardon for himself as a hedge against future prosecution. He can't directly pardon himself, of course, but Cheney could do it for him. Bush just needs to resign shortly before the president-elect takes office. That would make Cheney president long enough for Cheney to sign a stack of pardons for Bush administration criminals. Cheney, of course, would already have one in pocket for himself, signed by Bush.
I wrote up the scenario here over a year ago: Pardon my president. I got a couple of things wrong. (The U.S. Senate was not tied after the 2006 general election and Al Gore is probably not the 2008 Democratic nominee.) But the rest could still come true.
Have you read the PHILIPPE SANDS Vanity Fair interview, The Green Light, May 2008?
http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2008/05/guantanamo200805
It is long but worth it.
This is important stuff. We should all be aware of what has happened and is still going on. These specific crimes need to be investigated and prosecuted. If we do not, America will have no moral standing whatsoever in the world. At this point we are essentially a rogue state.
Here area couple of segments (youTube videos) of his presentation before the House Judiciary Constitution, Civil Rights & Civil Liberties Subcmte.
Philippe Sands: Guantanamo Bay and Interrogation Rules
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kPAGNNsrwUw&feature=related
Phillipe Sands: Don't Call It A War On Terror
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B6QOSyZL91A
Watch Bush cronies squirm over issues of torture!!!-1/2 (David Addington and former Justice Department attorney John Yoo at their slimiest)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUpC-4ppSIQ&feature=related
Philippe Sands without reservation states that war crimes were committed by the most senior members of the Bush administration. He is a professor of law at the University College London and recently wrote a book "Torture Team". He speaks before the House Judiciary Constitution, Civil Rights & Civil Liberties Subcmte.
Well of course they should be tried for mass murder and war crimes! That's what the laws are for! You can't have madmen like these running around loose in our society and not expect the society to suffer.
c. atrox @ 4:
Done and done.
The screwing part, I mean.
Why did the Bush Family buy more than 98,000 acres in the Chaco region of Paraguay? The Nazis discovered decades ago that South America was a dandy refuge for war criminals, and nothing much has changed since then. I don't think Monkey-boy and his cohorts are really sweating this too much. There'll be a night plane flight, and that'll be it.
Robert Lockwood Mills @ 46:
Indeed
hello @ 85:
It's like that awful show Dallas was nothing like the Dallas I know and live.
Closest I've seen is King of the Hill.
eugenics has returned to this land.
bushcriminalscumbag @ 55:
A Fucking men!
And if that can't be done, I have 2 words for the American People: Violent Revolution!
I see a time coming where Americans will need to make a choice between bowing to the corporate plutocracy that truly runs your country (and, indeed, much of the world) and standing up for true freedom.
Unfortunately standing up for true freedom will result in a backlash from those who would retain their power at all costs.
I see more and more people going "off the grid", unplugging themselves from the matrix so to speak in an attempt to remove themselves from the system.
Then you will see the feds crush down on them a la Waco.
Then the world will choose sides. Those who back the corrupt power structures and those who still believe in human beings innate RIGHT to be free.
I know which side I'll be on.
Still not enough to make it real to the masses. Harper's tried with impeachment too.
It's so far beyond the pale, and they've gotten so much help covering their asses from Congress, the media, the courts, I wonder why they'd still be worried about paying the piper at all.
I've been thinking for quite a while that they should just pile in Air Force One on 19 January and move to Paraguay. Others think they will simply not leave office, do another false flag and use that as the excuse to suspend the Constitution. You just can't ever tell with criminals of this stature, now can you?
uk visa @ 79:
Bush is a red-herring, put in his position to distract people like you.
The POTUS has often been a war criminal, going back to the genocide of the indiginous on this continent.
We just didn't have the internet back then to counter their propaganda.
I am worried there won't be any prosecution.........
The Democrats collaborating in this sordid affair remind me of the Vichy collaborators that helped the Nazis in WW II. Philippe Petain and others were more then glad to sell out their country and cooperate with the occupiers rather than take an affirmative stand against them. Our current politicians apparently prefer the ease and convenience of compromise instead of courageously standing for principles.
Ron @ 49:
At least Democrats have some capacity for self-criticism. That's a good thing.
One the Repubs have proved in spades is that blind party loyalty is disastrous.
Eric in Ottawa @ 103:
Eric in Ottawa @ 103:
Same here.
I'll be on this side of the border, like you, in Canada.
Damn!
Sorry for double quoting, site monitors. My bad.
All this may be true but none of it involves oral sex. Now THAT'S something to impeach for. Come on people! You've got to get your priorities straight! Up is down, right is wrong, war is peace, slavery is freedom, torture isn't torture when we're doing it and breaking a Constitutional law isn't really breaking it when W's all for it. Now go back and watch your TV now. Nothing to see here.
All evidence will be gone, emails erased, memories will fade ("I do not recall that conversation"), paper shredded (it probably already is). No one will be convicted of the original crime, maybe obstruction of justice (you know that "technicality" stuff) or destruction of evidence, etc. Nothing that anyone will want to see the POTUS and gang sent to jail for. All we'll get is the hint of crimes, not real crimes. Wait to see the POTUS pardon party, "I don't want to see good people that worked hard to protect American citizens sent to jail on technicalities", I can hear it now. Dems will practice the ancient art of iyata and Iwooda. I yata prosecute them, I yata and I wodda".
john @ 3:
That is like saying someone who helped covered up the crime is more guilty then the person that committed the crime.
john @ 3:
We all are complicit, John.
Our Federal government has the death penalty. Conduct a War Crimes Tribunal and heaven forbid Bush, et. al, are found guilty and sentenced to death put it on pay per view TV -- We can wipe out the entire $9.7 Trillion dollar debt. Now, I'm not a mean person, so suggest we only give Laura Bush 50 years probation because she didn't speak out in 1999 that her husband was so very questionable. And, Colin Powell, 30 years confinement forced to watch a continuing TV tape of his speech to the UN. Justice Under Law.
Rufus @ 115:
Oh, can I be the one to shoot Cheney in the face? Please?
harley @ 113:
No -- it's like saying that the people who helped to bury the evidence were also completely involved and complicit in the commission of said crime.
Wanna choose one? Just one crime which at least some high-ranking Democrats must have had some idea of -- even at or before the time which said crime was committed...?
If the charges are true, then from the president on down, sweep up all of them and start over again. If those in uniform who took an oath to preserve and protect the Constitution have any balls at all, then it's time for a bloodless coup so we can get this country back on track. If the chgarges are proven, put'em up against a wall and shoot first. Ask questions later.
Okay, I'll pick just one off the top of my pointy head:
Why was Nancy Pelosi's first gesture as Speaker of the House to take all Republican/White House impeachment proceedings and even any further talk of it off of the table...?
I don't see a violent revolution coming in the United States. We are too fat, too comfortable -- oh, we will bitch and moan on the internet, but come the order to grab your musket and get on the truck there would come a million excuses. Oh, I have a bad knee, I have to go to my kid's graduation, we've got a big inventory at the store this week, my lawn will die if I don't continuously water it, my wife said no, so I can't go, etc., etc., etc. Let's face it, our goose was cooked in November 2000 when we didn't take to streets. A chance forever lost.
xoites defends Constitution @ 83:
And JFK was complicit in the assassination of Diem in S. Vietnam, invaded Cuba (arguably an unconstitutional act of war), and gave the CIA the go-ahead to murder Castro.
Eisenhower mounted a coup against a democratically elected government in Iran, brought back the despotic Shah and created the conditions for the current mess in US middle east policy.
Truman created the CIA, which became an extra-constitutional means of projecting power abroad, assassinating foreign politicians and spying on US citizens at home and abroad.
FDR expanded the FBI into an all-powerful federal police agency, run for 40+ years by a corrupt, closeted fascist who routinely spied on Americans and persecuted citizens for their political beliefs.
And, of course, Lincoln suspended Habeus Corpus.
Rufus @ 120:
This is why I believe it won't happen until MOST Americans are feeling desperate. Look at revolutions that have happened in other countries. They don't happen on a whim. It usually takes things coming to a boiling point.
This is why, in a way, I see the current economic problems as a gift in disguise. It will shake a few more people from their complacency, as they start asking how the hell we got to this point.
When the mind can no longer fool itself, cognitive dissonance breaks down and an epiphany arrives. And with it, hopefully the revolution we're craving.
We can only hope he's prosecuted. After all, look what they put Clinton through just over a fricken sex scandal.
Marge @ 1:
Right frickin' on!!! It's about time these a$$holes were exposed for their sadism and complicity in murder, and brought to justice... something the United States stood for at one time in the not too distant past.
Chicken Hussein Little - NOT!! @ 8:
There are a couple of other sensible things that can be done, starting with the elimination of the Electoral College system. That would be easy enough to do, and since the Democrats could make it into an issue (having been screwed by it once in a very public way), they should introduce it in the 111 Congress. A simple, 'one person one vote' amendment. The Mint could simply print up paper ballots with serial numbers, and distribute them to every poll in the country. Then people show up at any polling station anywhere in the country, show some kind of proof that they're an American citizen, vote for a presidential candidate, dip their finger into ink so they can't vote at another poll, and that's the end of it. No need for voter lists etc. Of course, you'd still have to go through all that crap for the congressional races, and dumbass ballot initiatives, but at least the presidential contest would be fair.
This would most likely pass, because I don't think anybody would want to go down on record as voting against a one person one vote system, but then again I've already seen a lot of things I never expected to see. But if this isn't done, the day will come when a president will win with 35% of the popular vote, and there'll be rioting in the streets.
Secondly, if you really want to introduce a third and fourth party (which I think would be healthy) there's an easy and safe way to do it. The two most obvious candidates are the Libertarian party and the Green party. One third of the Congressional races are un-contended because the two major parties have them locked up so tightly. So, in Republican districts that are un-contended by the Democrats, the Libertarian party should run a candidate. In Democratic districts that are un-contended by the Republicans, the Green party should run a candidate. This would be a quick and easy way to get third and fourth party candidates into Congress, which would be a very healthy thing.
john @ 3:
That's what politics has always been. Otto von Bismarck said "Politics is the art of the possible." and John Kenneth Galbraith said "Politics is not the art of the possible, it consists in choosing between the disastrous and the unpalatable." The sooner everybody accepts that this is all politics is and can every be, the better the system will work.
Rufus @ 120:
Exactly. Look at the South Koreans protesting by the tens of thousands over US beef. Here we can't even get excited over a stolen election.
Unfortunately it will never happen :(
hello @ 110:
Yeah!
You BAD!
woody, tokin librul @ 41:
Ummmm ... thats what I meant by "it aint over" ...its like income taxes ....they increase them and it never goes back ... domest matter who is Prez
......And, Colin Powell, 30 years confinement forced to watch a continuing TV tape of his speech to the UN. Justice Under Law......
Rufus, are you talking about the little slide show he gave the UN? Nobody was more surprised than ME to see THOSE pictures.
.....Exactly. Look at the South Koreans protesting by the tens of thousands over US beef. Here we can’t even get excited over a stolen election.....
But the Spaniards exiled their BOY to Washington, DC right after the Madrid bombings. I wonder if Aznar will be going to Paraguay with Bush?
Rufus @ 120:
I don't see a violent revolution as the solution to the problem. My belief in non violence aside, you don't go up against the world's most powerfull military with violence. You do not stick your hand in a blender and hit the "on" button.
Our decisions, fortunately, are not limited to being shot down in the streets or becoming slaves. We are the people who create the economy in this country and when we get around to waking up to that fact we will realize we can shut it down flat whenever we want to .
Until then i suppose we will bemoan the fact that we are too lazy to do the stupidest thing in the world which of course is taking up arms against the United States and end up on the evening news as one more shoot out with a SWAT Team. Guess who win that meaningless little conflict?
Paul @ 51:
BUT WHERE ARE THE ARREST WARRANTS?! It seems to me the UN and the ICC are just as complacent as the democrats. Are they affraid the US will declare war on member states if they try to indict our elected officials? Where's their spine!? Oh it's easy to get a warrant for the president of a poor nation, but the US? WTF???
123 Spicegal
I heard Cher's joining the Spice-Girls for their reunion tour,
She'll be Old Spice.
xoites defends Constitution @ 133:
Boycotts can be very effective. I devoutly practice that religion, personally.
I heard on Democracy Now! the other day about a couple in the U.S. who technically do not pay taxes.
In fact, they do pay taxes, but they've carefully worked out which amount of their taxes go to the war effort, which they actively attempt to refuse to pay. The IRS are apparently having a hell of a time trying to prosecute this couple and can only so far manage to garnishee some of their wages.
Very creative approach to the problem though!
rufus@120 Sadly you might be right, untill a crime hits at home, most people are "too busy living their lives" to get involved. Everyone says they want the world for their kids, yet they sit on their fat ass and pretend that passing crappy, laws,rules and trying to control everything they do will make them safe and happy. We might as well face the fact that the stupid and lazy, and those who are able to control what they believe ( through our shit media) out-number the people who reason things out and at least try to do what is best. Child predators, drugs, cults, parents are very frightened for their kids. The thing that should scare the hell out of all these "moms and dads " out their is what kind of life well be left for them after we let a bunch of criminals take away the rights and freedoms that built this country, I would rather be fucked or on drugs as a kid than be thrown in jail as an adult with no rights or freedoms. In my mind, any of you "parents" that are to lazy, to busy living to keep informed or voted for the norm because you think making money will protect them are guilty of child abuse. You people are leaving a shit-hole for your kids to live in and that is child abuse. Now lets see you "parents" put your money where your mouth is. Every day we hear" for the children, kids first, protect the children" , what a bunch of two-faced crap. Protect them for real or shut the fuck up.-CEO
Naomi Klein is live up thread.
xoites defends Constitution @ 138:
Oh YEEEEEEEEEESSSSSSSSSS!!!!!!
Xmas in July...!!!!
Pericles @ 125:
Except then we'll fall victim to the old removable-fake-latex-skin-over-the-finger trick. Kind of like a finger condom.
They stick that puppy on their finger, walk in, vote, remove the fake skin, put on a new one. Repeat as necessary.
That is so far from acceptable, I can't even wrap my mind around the idea. Daddy rich, drunk, stupid, drug abusing, wife beating, useless sack of human shit who stole two elections would be an acceptable accountability from history books; but this monster has bankrupted the country for his own financial gains, has decimated the constitution for his own political clout and has committed crimes against humanity for his own sick twisted pleasures. This pig needs roasting. History books are NOT acceptable punishment for this psychopath and his cohorts.
We grow up reading about these sorts of horrible criminals in history- some who escaped justice after causing the death of thousands or even millions. We ask ourselves 'how could the people/peasants of that time have tolerated such monsters?'
We have such a band of monsters in our time and in our government- if we do nothing to end their reign or punish them, then we are complicit and we are ensuring that it would happen again one day.
Progress requires action against BushCo.
I am going to do the happy dance when these criminals are held to account for their crimes. Oh what a happy, happy day. The LAW and JUSTICE will prevail.
Hi folks,...Been gone for awhile, let's just go with hiatus...not that anyone asked or cares... I'm back now, getting depressed again reading thru J.A.'s excellent blog. I really mean that Mr. Amato, this site is so totally needed in this day and age. Read thru the Klein thread, must buy and read her book, though I suspect it will just confirm my existing cynicism. Wish I could say I'm happy to see nothing has changed, well nothing except the feces is that much deeper than it was the last time I was here.... Yea, wish I could say that but it would be a lie... Guess that means I haven't lost my mind yet....
No real ranting from me today, it's all been said here on this thread and before by myself and others more well written than I. I only offer my own echo to the sentiments expressed by many.... They are war criminals, they need called on it, arrested, tried, convicted and punished... We all know whom I speak of. They are all guilty as sin. Would that restore our nation??... Hardly, but that not the point anyway. And it would nevertheless be a small step towards healing, both for America and the world we have abused over and over at least since WWII, but most especially over the last eight years, with an able assist from certain policies inplemented in the 90s, most notably to my mind, NAFTA as written...
I'm also feeling these days that the dems will indeed let us down which really brings me down hard. I want to like Obama, I always have wanted to, but the bloom is off that rose with this disgusting FISA business, not to mention some of his other questionable calls since winning political office. And poor little Dennis Kucinich and his one little article of impeachment that John Conyers is being allowed to entertain for the moment will not bare any fruit that I can see. When everything the Bush administration has purpitrated and is publically known about comes down to that one itsy-bitsy article from an original attempt with 35 articles shuffled off to die in the usual committee trickery, I have to conclude that this too, is just more smoke and mirrors design to both act as some kind of phony salve and to further distract 'we the pawns'... Just another dog and pony show.
And it's not like I don't believe Kucinich and Conyers aren't sincere... I believe they are.. It's just that I see them now, and the other handful of D.C. pols who may have their integrity intact, the Feingolds and Babs Boxer and one of two others... as plainly, clearly outnumbered, thouroughly outnumbered... I'm now slowly, reluctantly, becoming inclined to either not vote at all anymore or just write in the names of the pols I really back even though I know it's a wasted exercise in futility in the current political environment. Mostly, I'm thinking it's time to look for someone to back in creating a viable third party... Will there be time enough in my lifetime to see something like that bare valid fruit... Dunno... Doubt it... I'm very tired now, very tired and sad at what has happened here... At what the Bushies, the Milton Friedmans, the wall streeter privatizers, the Reagan Republicans and all the rest of those cheerleaders for that kind of sick vision have done to us...........
Blah blah blah... I guess I'm dun....Ain't really got anything useful to add, wish I did. Wish I had a real brainiac idea to help, we sure do need some new ideas to fix this mess.... Ah well, Guess I ranted after all..oh well, regards to all, goodday....JD
Jack Damage @ 145:
well cant say you didnt try , sad dissapointed yeah me too! thiers no superman comeing to save us , and im allso tired !
Bluesage @ 21:
It has nothing to do with justice - the ICC has been undermined by the Bush administration to the point of absurdity, insuring immunity of US nationals from prosecution. Some countries have refused to immunuity to US nationals, but many others have not due to econoomic manipulation and other coercive techniques.
The only thing that can possibly restore America is to punish these criminals. The only mechanism to do that is domestic. If the rule of law does not apply equally to all the constitution is no better than toilet paper.
Mickxotic @ 15:
Yeah, the road to hell is paved with House and Senate committee investigations which are for the purpose of having constituents believe that congress is performing the way that it should. What we really need is far less talk and much more action but don't expect any actions from these f*ckoffs.
I've said it before, I'll say it again:
there is only one solution- the third congress. dissolve this government, it is corrupt to the core and not salvageable.
Scrap the whole freakin thing, build a new one and have it prosecute every single one of these bastards to the fullest extent of the law.
No war crimes trials in the Hague. Try them at home, add treason charges where applicable, and understand that these are capital crimes. (The Hague doesn't subscribe to the death penalty, which IMHO makes it unsuitable for hearing these crimes.)
A Rightwing Assistant Vice Pres of my insititution just came back from vacation where he says he read: “The Prosecution Of George W. Bush For Murder.” by Vincent Bugliosi and he was totally switched on his view of booosh. He questioned why he does not hear about this book far and wide on the MSM, of course he asked laughingly.
http://www.prosecutionofbush.com/
Login or Register to post comments.