John Ashcroft defends waterboarding: 'I do not believe it would define torture.'
By John Amato Wednesday Jul 16, 2008 5:51pm
Download | play 
Download | play (h/t SilentPatriot)
John "I was dipped in Crisco oil " Ashcroft defended waterboarding today in a House hearing.
The controversial interrogation technique of waterboarding has served a "valuable" purpose and does not constitute torture, former Attorney General John Ashcroft told a House committee Thursday.
"I believe a report of waterboarding would be serious, but I do not believe it would define torture," Ashcroft said, responding to questions from Rep. Maxine Waters, D-California.
He added, "the Department of Justice has on a consistent basis over the last half-dozen years or so, over and over again in its evaluations, come to the conclusion that under the law in existence during my time as attorney general, waterboarding did not constitute torture."
Waters asked Ashcroft whether such techniques would be regarded as "totally unacceptable and even criminal" if they were used on American soldiers. "Well, my subscription to these memos, and my belief that the law provides the basis for these memos persisted even in the presence of my son serving two tours of duty overseas in the Gulf area as a member of our armed forces," Ashcroft said...
How could any person associated with the religious right endorse torture in any form? It's unbelievable. These phony religious zealots always seem to put their principles down whenever it suits them. And he's had other very serious infractions that would seem to come in conflict with his convenient beliefs. Remember the sweetheart contracts that former Attorney General John Ashcroft got from DOJ after he stepped down after President Bush’s first term?
Christopher Hitchens just waterboarded himself (see video) and said:
“If waterboarding does not constitute torture, then there is no such thing as torture.”
Here's a little history of waterboarding...
Water boarding was designated as illegal by U.S. generals in Vietnam 40 years ago. A photograph that appeared in The Washington Post of a U.S. soldier involved in water boarding a North Vietnamese prisoner in 1968 led to that soldier's severe punishment...read on
Login or Register to post comments.
We are under attack. Fight back.
Let the Eeeeeeeagle soar! And poop on his head.
Maybe Ashcroft would like to be Waterboarded; just in the interest of having him feel more
confident of what he speaks.
How could any person associated with the religious right endorse torture in any form? It’s unbelievable.
You have obviously never been around evangelicals. Torture from cradle to grave. Beatings, guilt, sexual abuse, snakes, speaking in tongues, incest, self mutilation...all standards of the Bible Belt.
Why does this surprise anyone? The current administration may be looking at war crimes trials, of course they are going to say waterboarding isn't torture. I can only hope Obama doesn't shift his position on this as well.
John, could you add this update to the main posting?
---
From the ABC News link:
Current and former CIA officers tell ABC News that they were trained to handcuff the prisoner and cover his face with cellophane to enhance the distress. According to Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz., himself a torture victim during the Vietnam War, the water board technique is a "very exquisite torture" that should be outlawed.
---
Very nice McCain, I wonder what he thinks about waterboarding now.
Another paunchy, pasty face "had better things to do then go to Vietnam" chicken hawk.
Like a lot of the Bush Adminsitration Ashcroft is bound for Hell according to his own beliefs and principles.
I still think these guys should be waterboarded until they admit it's torture.
For bonus points, they should also be waterboarded into admitting they solicit gay sex in bathroom sta -- oh, wait. Never mind.
Right winger: "911 changed everything. Kill them before they kill us. It's like a fraternity prank. 911 changed everything..."
I'm with enor. Mark Twain once said? wrote? "If you hold a cat by the tail you learn things you cannot learn any other way."
You want to claim that waterboarding doesn't qualify as torture? Given the long historical precedent, the burden of proof is with you. And if you want us to take you seriously, then put yourself on the line: Submit to waterboarding.
ciloisin Says: Like a lot of the Bush Adminsitration Ashcroft is bound for Hell according to his own beliefs and principles.
-------
Their "belief and principles" are to get evangelical voter. Worked for Larry Craig, Foley, Vitter, etc too.
ciloisin @ 8:
He's rich and in americon that means innocent, nothing will happen.
disillusioned again @ 5:
He has already hasn't he ?
And yet they impeached a sitting President for getting an intern-provided hummer.
Priorities.
WTF has happened to this country?!?
Oh yeah... Republicans.
Does John Ashcroft realize that waterboarding was declared a war crime by our own Nuremberg and Tokyo trials? I wouldn't be surprised at all if he does and doesn't care, but America really should not be acting like the Axis powers.
Yes, GWB's “Principled” Attorney General…
I think this story serves to illustrate — once and for all — that John Ashcroft's “principled” and vigorous objection to the machinations at his sick bed derived from an ethical perspective no higher than “covering his ass.”
“there is no such thing as torture.”
This will soon be the new GOP talking point.
General_Rennenkampf @ 15:
The US has been for years, it just has more toys and PR in the US, the rest of the world isn't blind to it.
JayDog @ 14:
It's not just Republicans...the mainstream media, the lazy, stupid and selfish American consumers, and the military industrial complex, and appeasing Democrat leaders all working together to turn the American Dream into a worldwide nightmare.
CYA
General_Rennenkampf @ 15:
The Nazi's were taking notes from us. Look at our 19th century history...genocide, slavery, annexations, marginalizing women, minorities and children, hyper nationalism...it was the play book for Hitler.
"He added, “the Department of Justice has on a consistent basis over the last half-dozen years or so, over and over again in its evaluations, come to the conclusion that under the law in existence during my time as attorney general, waterboarding did not constitute torture.”
or "we said it ain't so it ain't.
All these guys who've said waterboarding in not that bad, Tucker Carlson, Ashcroft, Billo, et al, should be waterboarded themselves. If you just do Tucker I won't ask for another thing this year, I promise.
Some here see the system as fucked.
Some here see the problem as Repubs.
Some here see the problem as Repubs and Dems.
The problem is all of the above.
Oh, yes, and another thing: the root source of almost all Christians affiliated with the Bush Administration, Medieval Catholicism had not even one theological quibble with torture despite being against gladiator games and having a god that was tortured on the cross. It's curious, as well that Western Christianity should be a bit more subtly attuned to dictatorial mindsets than Eastern Christianity. Perhaps it has to do with the relative isolation of much of Western Europe and the Christian faith's development in that isolation after the Western Empire collapsed in 476 as opposed to the East having Parthia, the Sassanids and Islam to be in contact with.
Leadership @ 21:
Let alone the support the Nazis had from the US at the beginning while the real allies were fighting, then were a lot of them ended up afterwards etc.
There are no innocents or moral high grounds here, just people who lie to themselves about who they are and their history and those that don't and try to learn from it.
Unfortunately the US is the former and has a lot of growing up to do as a country, nation and people.
There is no such thing as torture , it's all in your head.
What if "enemy combatants" waterboarded American soldiers and sent the video to YouTube? Would he tell those soldiers' families it was just a frat-boy prank; get over it?
It's not torture, just a highly agitated state of neural activity in the pain receptors, a mental regression. Stop whining and kick some Haji ass.
the self-righteous always hold everyone as lowlife
and criminal as a way of covering their own hypocritical
bastard ways. they hide behind
goddouble-standards,those everyone else much adhere to no matter what and
that they hold themselves above. reminds me of the
feudal system of old england and france.
the king and lords and then there is the rest of us.
fuck bush/chene/cundi and all the reichwingneocon
they are all criminals. karma does catch up with ones
deeds no matter what moral system you live in.
24 VietVet8666 Says: Some here see the system as fucked.
Some here see the problem as Repubs.
Some here see the problem as Repubs and Dems.
The problem is all of the above.
==============================
You left out the stupid, gullible, distracted public.
I don't get it?
Is Ashcroft trying to insinuate that John McCain wasn't tortured during Vietnam?
I thought he was a Republican?
It's amazing how quickly these Republicans turn on each other...like that McClellan fellow.
Jerry @ 26:
Leadership @ 21:
Jerry @ 18:
@ Jerry, Leadership:
The comparison between the Nazis and the 19th Century US is one I've made myself, Hitler's actions and attitudes towards Russians and other Slavs were exactly the same as US attitudes towards Indians from the days of Jamestown and Plymouth. In condemning the Opening of the West, we forget that the East had already been opened.
The corporations may have supported Hitler, they probably shipped arms to everybody, particularly after Barbarossa, plenty of people wanting arms, after all, but FDR was doing everything he could to draw Hitler into war, only to get whacked by Japan and then Hitler declaring war on our nation despite the terms of his alliance providing a get-out-of-war-free card. There were many Americans who didn't care about Europe, and of the ones who did, a great number did support Hitler, but people forget the Greatest Generation fought a racist SOB with Jim Crow and interning innocent people without any cognitive dissonance. In the era of Jim Crow, Hitler's ideas seemed to have not more than a little resonance with then-current US values.
It depends on what "is" is.
Who in their right mind would ever believe anything Asscrotch has to say about anything. He is one twisted sister, mister.
Parsing words, and covering his ass. If he says it is torture, then his ass is on the line with the rest of the administration.
These assholes will go to prison for this. I firmly believe this.
General_Rennenkampf @ 15:
Ashcroft missed that, he was busy clothing naked statues at the time.
“I believe a report of crucifixion would serious, but I do not believe it would define torture,” Pilate said.
He added, “the Imperial Senate has on a consistent basis over the last half-dozen years or so, over and over again in its evaluations, come to the conclusion that under the law in existence during my time as governor of Judea, crucifixion did not constitute torture.”
Why does this surprise anyone? The current administration may be looking at war crimes trials, of course they are going to say waterboarding isn’t torture. I can only hope Obama doesn’t shift his position on this as well.
My fear is that, after his inauguration, President Obama will say that we have so much to clean up and turn around as a nation -- the failed war in Iraq, a resurgence of the Taliban and al-Qaida in Afghanistan, an economy on the verge of a recession, and the restoration of the Constitution -- that aggressively pursuing the former administration for abuses of power and alleged crimes would not take precedence in his administration.
The only hope you'll ever have of getting an admission out of him would be to strap down his grandchildren and waterboard them in front of this committee, then ask him if it is torture...sadly, you still may not get the truth. Torquemada would be proud.
Waterboarding is not torture. It wasn't then and it isn't now. No matter how many times you rant and rave about waterboarding nothing is going to happen to anyone. These daily hearings are nothing but dog and pony shows for Democrats to take turns grandstanding. The only thing that should matter is getting information out of those who have it. If that means putting underwear on their head, using dogs, waterboarding, or even skinning them alive, it shouldn't really matter. What's the point of worrying about our enemies? Try being concerned about preventing attacks and keeping your fellow countrymen alive.
"Republicans on the panel argued that waterboarding and other harsh tactics yielded information that may have saved lives, and Ashcroft did not disagree." --reported in today's WaPo.
Only problem...there's NO FREAKIN' EVIDENCE that this is true. None. Nothing to base this on at all, and yet the damned media doesn't even mention it.
Oh, but hey, there was a series of light-hearted moments when several representatives mispronounced the names of the people who'd been tortured. Heh, heh. Those public servants. Always livening things up for us proles.
I'd like to see a video of Ashcroft and Condi getting it on!
Poopsie@44
Now that would be torture!
It's time for Ashcroft to volunteer to be waterboarded but not by his friends
So, I understand that the US has to "come clean" on the rehabilitation of the gestapo, kgb, viet-cong and khmer interrogators who used a technique "that has served a valuable purpose and does not constitute torture" on american prisoners.
Guidelines for North Korean and Iran: with an american prisoner, use the us newly legalized technique or legalize whatever technique you'd like to use. Who cares about International Law anyway ?
So much for "support the troup"...
Chris Jones @ 42:
[Deleted. Abusive. Site Monitor]
Second, it is torture, as defined by the Geneva Conventions. You know, the series of codes by which bodies at conflict treat each other's captured with human dignity? Regardless of whether or not you think it's justified, it's torture.
Third, your point that nothing is going to happen as a result of these hearings--that they're all dog-and-pony show, is correct. Nancy Pelosi has already said as much.
Next, all manner of studies have shown--repeatedly--that torture does NOT produce reliable intelligence. People will say their grandmothers shot McKinley in order to have the pain stop. Therefore, it's not only illegal and inhumane, it's ineffective.
Finally, there are a lot of good reasons to worry about our "enemies." If not simply for moral reasons, then for practical ones. The ways in which we treat those we've captured are how our own soldiers--our brothers, sisters, parents, friends, children--will be treated if they have the misfortune to be captured themselves. It's enlightened self-interest. For this reason, torture does nothing to "keep your fellow countrymen alive." In fact, it may very well do the opposite.
Finally, there has never been any evidence that waterboarding--or any other harsh interrogation technique, including any other form of torture--has prevented an attack. None. There is NO DOCUMENTED EVIDENCE. As such, your argument is flawed.
Have a nice day. Don't ever get tortured.
Chris Jones @42: well said I think the North Koreans and the Iranians will love to quote you when they'll interrogate the US prisoners they have.
RobertD@48
First rule of troll extermination- don't feed them. Not one bit.
Remember: it's not torture if it works, or took place in the past, or if Nancy Pelosi knew about it or if 9/11 upsets you.
That's a simple standard, no?
Does ANYONE trust these lying bastards anymore? They can call it "not torture", and someone would be stupid enough to believe them?
Simple question.....would it be torture if they enemy did it to our soldiers? No?...hmmm, ok. I'm sure the military has a different opinion on that one, you f*cking idiot!
I wonder, if Ashcroft is so blase about waterboarding and torture, just what was it that Bush proposed at his sickbed that got him so worked up?
Even if it was CYA, it must have been pretty twisted for Ashcroft to refuse to participate.
Chris Jones @ 42:
Please explain to us in what way this argument could not be used by, say, the Iranians who are facing the threat of American and/or Israeli attacks that would undoubtedly kill many thousands and are no doubt keen on 'keeping (their) fellow countrymen alive'.
Are you OK with Iranians skinning a captured US serviceman alive?
What goes around comes around, numbskull.
Andy K Jong Il @ 50:
Forgive my over-exuberance.
I don't necessarily believe, though, that all people who espouse Chris's thoughts are categorically trolls. My grandmother has a lot of the same opinions--she's old, not terribly well informed, and pretty old-school in her "eye-for-an-eye-and-then-some" attitudes toward getting even with people she blames for things she doesn't understand. But like her, people can be educated--and when they see that it's in their own best interest, they can change unenlightened thinking.
But then, she's really old, so that's the excuse I make for her. Others are more determined.
Boo Boo Kitty @ 53:
That's what I was thinking. What wouldn't this sicko do? Or maybe he was just to juiced with pain meds to see the upside?
Boo Boo Kitty @ 53:
The next time Ashcroft sang, "Let the Eagle Soar" at an NRA event, Bush wanted to accompany him making farting noises with him armpits.
Just another fucking Bush war criminal.... Sorry, but I don't want to listen to John Ashcrofts excuse making shit......That's it, that's all I got to say on this prick..................JD
Chris Jones @ 42:
This would be a somewhat compelling although ethically troubling argument except for the quintessential point that torture does not work. It is totally ineffective for extracting new information; it is only good for getting someone to admit to something you think you know already. In fact, I would venture that if I were being tortured I would be encouraged to resist if I saw that my tormentors needed something. But I guess that, Chris, you might have a hard time putting yourself in a suspected Al Qaeda member's shoes.
And I would argue exactly the opposite: torture has nothing to do with our enemies; it is only about ourselves.
"The object of torture is torture." Orwell
RobertD @ 57:
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
RobertD@55
My grandmother is 95 years old, a Roosevelt Democrat who remained that way until Reagan. Now she has BillO books-on-tape on her shelf. I still love her. And when she spouts that right-wing crap as fact to me- in person- I just turn her Quebecoise on her and say, "Ce c'est craque, Mimere!" (sorry if I got that wrong, Francophones)
But if she got on-line and spouted the same thing, I'd just ignore it. There's no winning 'em over. They know they're right- that's why they post the way they do.
The Hitchens experiment could have been worse. Imagine him hooded, naked, and in a pyramid with naked and hooded Perle, Wolfowitz, Cheney, Rumsfeld and Feith. Ashcroft could be the clown giving the thumbs up.
Andy K Jong Il @ 61:
Maybe so. But crap is crap. One way to deal with it is ignore it, and there are times for that. Another is to refute it. It doesn't always work, but that doesn't mean you have to leave it lying on the lawn.
The U.S. convicted Japanese of war crimes for waterboarding. If it isn't torture, why haven't the likes of Fox News, Limbaugh and the Weekly Standard sought to have the convictions overturned in the interests of justice?
RobertD @ 48:
You're wrong about that. No matter how we treat people that we capture, our people are get their heads chopped off if they're are captured. If we started moving detainees from Gitmo in to the Four Seasons tomorrow, our soldiers would still be dead men if they were to be captured.
As for the argument about torture not working, that's also nonsense. For every person you bring me that says it doesn't work I can bring you two that says it does. There are hundreds of books written by special forces guys that served in Vietnam and they say torture works nearly every time. They tortured VC all the time in Vietnam to get information and it was a hell of a lot worse than waterboarding.
And finally, waterboarding was only done to 3 people! Why have hundreds of hours of hearings over 3 instances of waterboarding? The whole thing is so ridiculous and misguided it almost defies belief.
Chris Jones @ 65:
I can't respond to you. It would be abusive.
Our own government has a history of machine gunning it's own citizens who struck against coal mines and sweat shops in the late 1800's, of burned their homes to the ground (some with them still inside) for striking against the corporate elite. Why should we expect them to have any reservations about torturing foreign nationals?
The netroots have effectively brought hundreds of thousands if not millions of citizens into a common forum with which to voice their disgust and outrage with our government's illegal activities. We need to move to the next level of activism, which IMO is mass civil disobedience and demonstrations against the perpetrators of these illegal and violent activities. This includes the corporate headquarters, the government facilities, and even the private residences of the leaders of these organizations. We have exhausted the written forms of protest. It's time for us to use our keyboards for the purpose of organizing ACTIONS against the corporatocracy and their representatives in the government.
JMHO
Che's_Lounge@67
Because it's the 21st Century? Because many things that once were in the past- slavery, limited sufferage, prohibition- are no longer?
And, yeah, in your second paragraph you point to the same things that helped force change throughout our history, just without the aid of the intertubes.
Chris Jones,
To condone torture is wholly unamerican, based upon our Bill of Rights, and our signing of the Geneva Conventions. You can write all you want about whether it is justified, or whether it works. You may want to review this criteria set by the DSM IV diagnostic manual:
"Antisocial personality disorder (APD) is a mental disorder defined by the American Psychiatric Association's Diagnostic and Statistical Manual: "The essential feature for the diagnosis is a pervasive pattern of disregard for, and violation of, the rights of others that begins in childhood or early adolescence and continues into adulthood due to the lack of love and care for the child."
Watched part of the hearing today with the Firedoglake crew. The message that Ashcroft was clearly repeating to the rest of the world was "do as we say not as we do" So if Iranians pick ups some U.S. or Israeli special forces in Iran with the purpose of undermining that government then according to what Ashcroft says is o.k. for us to do will be perfectly acceptable for the Iranian government to do. The twist of logic that Ashcroft followed was so full of contradictions and hypocrisy it was difficult to watch.
Monkey see Monkey do
Maybe he should volunteer to be waterboarded with Crisco!
What a DICKHEAD!
Andy K Jong II,
"Because it’s the 21st Century? Because many things that once were in the past- slavery, limited sufferage, prohibition- are no longer?"
So what? The mind set of the power elite remains the same as it has been throughout the mellenia. It's a recurrent and persistent value system that has been in existence for thousands of years. Time has nothing to do with it. Only the methods and technology have changed. Obtain power, then retain power. WTF does prohibition, the sufferegette movement or slavery have to do with torturing foreign nationals? These people are violent individuals today just as they were a hundred, or a thousand years ago. They need to be removed by any means necessary in order to ensure our survival, for they will surely foment more and continued violence.
Get it?
I will continue to be pissed off every time I see a Dem, or Repub, on a Congressional committee ask someone from the Bush administration what the law is! When, if ever is Congress going to wake up and realize that THEY write the laws and therefor should know what's legal. They don't need to ask Asscroft if waterboarding is legal. After all these years of debate (there shouldn't have even been a debate, it's as straight forward as it can be) every member of Congress should know that YES, IT IS TORTURE!!! When Asscroft and anyone else says there not sure, or they didn't see it that way, or they were only doing what they were told, the Democrat's in Congress should say 'well regardless of your confusion or misunderstanding, or out right law breaking WATERBOARDING IS TORTURE, AND THEREFOR AGAINST NATIONAL AND INTERNATIONAL LAW!!! We are now going to bring charges against you and everyone else that was involved in it. Of course that would require a Congress with a spine.
Remember, these are the same religious nut-cases that brought us the Spanish Inquisition. Of course, that wasn't torture either --- yeah, right.
Waterboarding is torture. The dirty little secret is that the vast overwhelming majority of Americans support the waterboarding of suspected Islamic terrorists. The Jack Bauer nightmare scenario of a hidden nuclear weapon has left an indelible imprint on the American psyche.
What Ashcroft, or any other intrerested party, thinks is irrelevant. There's legal precedent on waterboarding that ruled it was torture. If you want a brief rundown:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/11/02/AR200711...
Don't get spun on this one. It is not up for debate whether or not waterboarding constitutes torture. That issue has been visited well before the Bush admin decided to break the law with it.
Chris Jones @ 65:
Aw, one of the the misguided makes an appearance
As to your first point
I think you rebut yourself quite well here
I assume you're referring to Daniel Pearle? If you are, that's one instance. Are there more?
Your other point
Ok, Malcolm Nance
Waterboarding is Torture… Period
And Gens. Krulak and Hoar
Colonel Stuart Herrington
Senator John McCain
OK I gave you five, that means you owe me ten who say torture is worthwhile ... and no that doesn't mean Jack Bauer
As to your last assertion that waterboarding was only used on three people, I know this is like trying to prove a negative but where is it said that it was only three people?
Let's waterboard that sonofabitch and then ask him again...
Booo this foul man!
john in sacramento @ 77:
Two probs with what I wrote and one with your logic: 1) I misspelled Mr Pearls name, no e, sorry - and 2) Mr. Pearl was killed in Pakistan - our ally - which 3) seems to throw your logic for a loop
Just another coward in the Bush admin. No surprises here.
Andy K Jong Il @ 61:
Pretty good Andy K. One slight correction It's Ca not Ce. My keyboard is not currently configured for cedilles. Btw we all have one of those elderly deep-thinkers around do we not. Very amusing.
The questions never demand clear yes or no.
And the answers are never include words yes or no.
That is what makes it so damn frustrating to watch.
"How could any person associated with the religious right endorse torture in any form?"
How could they not? Did you ever read the Bible? Child sacrifice, collecting hundreds of foreskins of the enemy, cutting & bleeding for demonic worship, killing entire populations except the virgins, killing the husbands of the grandchildren you've banged, decapitations, stonings, whipping, nailing your son to a tree for nine hours,... It's 66 books of torture!
Is this asshole saying that it's acceptable to waterboard US troops? Is the Bush admin trying to undermine *150 years* of progress in an important area of human rights? Rhetorical question.
Chris Jones @ 65:
Let me try to put this so those with limited gray mater can understand; torture works if you just want to get people to confess to things they may or may not have done. However it can never get information of truths that you don’t already know just ask McCain about his football buddies in his squad! Another thing; three tortures is three too many, if the bad guys do it then let’s be the good guy and act like it!
So you do not think waterboarding is torture. Then, Mr. Ashcroft, I am certain you will be honorable and actually try waterboarding. Put your money where your mouth is, and prove it.
But you and I know you are not an honorable man, Mr. Ashcroft, so you will not test it on yourself.
You know, just as I was getting a grudging, if however slight, respect for him due to his actions while in the hospital (not signing that paper Dufus wanted him to sign that the temp AG refused to sign), he goes and does something that reminds me that, yes, he was part of that evil conspiracy to destroy the Constitution.
disillusioned again @ 5:
He will, and nobody will be arrested. His FISA vote insures that attitude--look forward, don't look back, Bush was the president, Rove lost his job, Cheney is old and has a heart condition, the rest were only following orders. I am not hopeful. We only have one party--the party of money.
"How could any person associated with the religious right endorse torture in any form? "
Unless I am mistaken torture has been a tool of the religious right. Every religion, every era. Throughout history.
I love it when people who haven't had waterboarding personally done to them try to defend it as "not torture". I find it telling that everyone who has elected to be waterboarded has afterwards declared it to be "torture". Without fail.
Mr. Ashcroft, when you elect to have yourself waterboarded (and no fair having a safe word that ends it when you want it to stop. Give up all of your power and let your "interrogator" decide when it stops), I'll be more likely to consider your opinion. However, you have zero credibility on this topic right now.
Chris Jones @ 65:
First, you are correct in that our adherence to the rules of the Geneva Convention does not guarantee our troops will be treated with respect. But torturing their people does make it more likely that our troops will be tortured in retaliation. The prohibition against torture was created in part to stop the cycle of retaliation: you torture me, so I torture you, so you torture me, so I torture you, so you.....
Second, torture doesn't provide good intelligence. Some people tell the truth, but just as many tell the interrogator whatever they want to hear to stop the torture. When you read transcripts of what soldiers and victims at Guantanimo say occurred during interrogations, it becomes pretty clear that interrogators only ended torture when the subjects admitted to whatever they were charged with. This is a formula for eliciting confessions, not intelligence. Torture doesn't provide good evidence.
Finally, do you really believe that waterboarding has only been done three times? With this administration, that hides everything it does? It would be more accurate to say that they have only been caught waterboarding three times.
I am terrified to think what we're going to find out if we ever dust off all the files this administration has hidden from us. I have a sinking feeling that, when history looks at what has been done in our names, it will become another chapter in the same book that tells the story of the Spanish Inquisition, the Salem Witch Trials, the Holocaust, the Bataan death marches.
Ashcroft and the rest of these right wing assholes will tell us with a straight face that black is white and white is black , they know better . These guys are cowards and liars they do not have any principles , decency or ethics , they are simply without conscience , low life freaks . I never thought I would see the day that the USA would openly condone torture let alone illegally kidnap and imprison not allowing any representation , defense or rights , then along comes Bush and all the rest of the scum bags . Thank you stupid ass Americans who voted Bush , you ignorant morons ! I don't give this country much hope , the politicians on both sides are now so corrupted ,self serving and morally and ethically bankrupt , our people so apathetic , ignorant and so damned stupid , I don't think there is any turning back . I didn't add anything of substance to the conversation here , I know , am just pissed as can be and am venting here , sorry folks .
This guy thinks that dancing is evil and waterboarding is OK?
He's a fucking lunatic!
Chris Jones @ 65:
Yeah, torture works really well in obtaining information. Look at how well it worked during the dark ages of Christianity, when nearly everyone who was tortured admitted they were witches or devil worshippers. Nearly every single person tortured admitted what the torturer wanted to hear.
That's a pretty good success rate!
And the Communist Chinese agreed to success during the torture of Americans during the North Korean war. Unfortunately, they only attributed success rates to confession for crimes not committed. You don't suppose that we are obtaining false confessions through torture? Nah, that would never happen. Government is always to be trusted.
He like his former boss ie Georgie
are both assholes. I'd love to see
the two of them WATERBOARDED!!!!
Bettcha' they would cry out for mommy!!
Christians worship a guy being tortured. They kneel in front of a statue of a guy nailed to a stick of wood with thorns on his head. They have a canabalistic ritual where the pretend wine is the guys blood and a cracker is his body. Christians are all about torture.
... in 1947, the United States charged a Japanese officer, Yukio Asano, with war crimes for carrying out another form of waterboarding on a U.S. civilian. The subject was strapped on a stretcher that was tilted so that his feet were in the air and head near the floor, and small amounts of water were poured over his face, leaving him gasping for air until he agreed to talk.
To bad he didn't just google.
when will america apologize for charging the japanese with war crimes for doing the exact same thing
this man has no shame...especially since he was apparently against the procedure
I respect Ashcroft. After I died he suspended his campaign out of respect for me. I wish Democrats had that much class.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Carnahan
"Out of respect, John Ashcroft suspended his campaign during the mourning period for Mel Carnahan."
Al Gore should learn from John Ashcroft.
He doesn't believe it's torture?
Great. I got a bucket and I got water.
Let's waterboard him. Come on.
Let me. Pleeeeeeease? I really want to make a guy who's so ignant he thinks naughty bits on statuary needs to be covered by loincloth, cry.
Nobody's been that dumb or tight-assed since the Cardinals painted over Michaelangelo's masterpiece in the Sistine Chapel.
The answer to the question posed is simple. The "religeous right" is not a religeous group at all. It's a political group fraught with their own ideology.
Why cant the next question from the congress woman be "then why did we try and execute japanese men for this very crime after world war II?"
The three most meaningful letters to this administration from now on: CYA. Have no doubts that when toadies like Ashcroft try and justify their terrible personal behavior with statements like 'waterboarding is not torture'.... you can be assured that CYA has taken over. Feith, Yoo, innumerable military types, even Powell... all putting CYA to work.
.
I guess America owes many parties an apology for having been successfully prosecuted by America, for the war crime of water tourture.
What...?
It's not torture when the USA does it!... YES?
.
I wish Congress would quit asking the damn question whether waterboarding is torture or not. Waterboarding is torture period. The more the question is asked whether it is or is not torture only strengthens the war criminals' faulty reasoning.
Dickhead Cheney Said, “We have to work … the dark side if you will.”, Newsweek, Nov. 21, 2005; stating that, following meetings convened by White House Counsel Alberto Gonzales, administration lawyers “approved ‘waterboarding,’ dripping water onto a wet cloth over the suspect’s face, which feels like drowning.”
Since Cheney used the term "dark side", what does that mean exactly. Let's just take a gander even though most of us know.
Star Wars Wiki exlains...
"The dark side of the Force, called Bogan by the ancient forerunners of the Jedi, was the primary tool of the Sith Lords, and was the more destructive side of the Force. Unlike the light side of the Force, dark force users draw power from raw emotions, both negative and positive; the power coming from strength or severity. Where the light side was associated with creation and life, the dark side was associated with death and destruction. A Force-user who followed the dark side was known as a darksider."
Yoda said, "beware of the dark side. Anger, fear, aggression. The dark side of the Force, are they. Easily they flow, quick to join you in a fight. If once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny. Consume you, it will."
What did anyone expect? Asscrack is a criminal, he partakes in criminal activities.
Huh?!! Ummm... maybe because Jesus Christ is a sadistic, torture obsessed prick! Have you never heard of Hell before?
John Ashcroft's answer is not surprising, given that he is a a moral cripple. He has a lot of company, in that regard. And...that's why humanity must periodically convene war crimes tribunals.
...and these people will live happily for the rest of their natural lives, not suffering a bit for their actions, just like Kissinger, and the others before them. Apparently you are above the law, if you are an American causing suffering and death all over the globe. It's only a problem if you're a Nigerian, Haitian, Panamanian, Serbian or other little fucked up dictator.
If waterboarding is effective yet is not torture, then why don't police departments use it routinely?
The two-faced, hypocritical, hate filled, Relugs are no more religious than the devil himself.
Fine, then let's do it to that Christian terrorist and see if the insane cultist changes his tune.
Let's waterboard that fascist unAmerican TRAITOR, then ask him what he thinks. Nah, better yet, let's just hang them all.
Login or Register to post comments.