Damned Activist Judges...not!

I bet Radical Right Rove tried to get this judge fired.

The whole concept of enlisting torture techniques we copied from the Communists whose sole purpose was to pry FALSE confessions out of victims makes all "justification" for our torturing detainees null and fucking void!

Any teenager in a high school civics class could have told the Bush administration that if they tortured these men they would never be able to use that information to try them. Or even any kid who spent any time watching "Law & Order" reruns.

Obviously that is why the administration tried so hard to keep these detainees from getting their day in court. Sadly for George Bush, he is President of the United States of America and we are indeed a nation of laws. He cannot simply do what he wants simply because he stole two elections from the American people.

It is my fervent hope that he gets the opportunity to see just how those laws can be applied to his own criminal activity.

I seem to remember an article where someone in Bush co. made the statement that these trials had better be well under way before the fall in order to show the great job they have been doing in capturing and prosecuting terrorist. Also to show that the work at Gitmo was valid. well it sure seems that this has net been working out too well for the Bush administration.
Please remember that under Bill Clinton, the terrorist that masterminded and carried out the first World Trade Center attack were captured, tried and sentenced (a few weeks before 9-11-01) and torture was not used. The criminal justice system was used (a concept repube has criticized for years) and worked much more effectively than what has been the case since 2001.

Even if Hamdan is acquitted, he'll still be "detained" as an "enemy combatant" which means, still no habeas corpus.

willie @ 10:

I seem to remember an article where someone in Bush co. made the statement that these trials had better be well under way before the fall in order to show the great job they have been doing in capturing and prosecuting terrorist. Also to show that the work at Gitmo was valid. well it sure seems that this has net been working out too well for the Bush administration.
Please remember that under Bill Clinton, the terrorist that masterminded and carried out the first World Trade Center attack were captured, tried and sentenced (a few weeks before 9-11-01) and torture was not used. The criminal justice system was used (a concept repube has criticized for years) and worked much more effectively than what has been the case since 2001.

Outside of Mussoie (sorry, can't remember how to spell his name) who was begging to be convicted because (i think) he was mentally ill has nyone else been convicted of terrorism in the last seven years?

Well done to the judge - I imagine he was put under a great deal of pressure to find otherwise.

I get the feeling somewhere in an 'undisclosed location' heir cheney is loading his gun and grinding his teeth. Whoops! Did someone not remember to bribe or threaten this judge? Who's job was that? Someone messed up.

It's nice to see someone recalls what the law used to be about.
If that isn't a big 'fuck you' to the dumbya administration I don't know what is.

Gryphen @ 8:

Any teenager in a high school civics class could have told the Bush administration that if they tortured these men they would never be able to use that information to try them. Or even any kid who spent any time watching "Law & Order" reruns.

Obviously that is why the administration tried so hard to keep these detainees from getting their day in court. Sadly for George Bush, he is President of the United States of America and we are indeed a nation of laws. He cannot simply do what he wants simply because he stole two elections from the American people.

It is my fervent hope that he gets the opportunity to see just how those laws can be applied to his own criminal activity.

Unfortunately, the American legal system is now a two tier system, as initiated by our glorious criminal leader and instituted by our illustrious craven congress.

Here is what the lower tier gets for email eavesdropping.

But the congress and brere obama has just given bushco and his henchmen a complete pass for the very same thing times 300 million.

That of course is only one of the class of crimes the Boy Fuhrer has perpetrated.

If you are going to educate your children in ethics, you might want to take them to another country, or at least reference another country in your civics class.

As far as ethics is concerned, this one is finished.

displaced @ 12:

Even if Hamdan is acquitted, he'll still be "detained" as an "enemy combatant" which means, still no habeas corpus.

Heard about this on Countdown last night. Even if all of these "terrorists" have their day in court, they are not going to be released. These are nothing more than show trials, and even if they end up bad for the Shrub, none of these people will ever have true freedom. I am surprised that they aren't trying to get them to some other country where they would automatically be convicted.

xoites defends Constitution @ 14:

Outside of Mussoie (sorry, can't remember how to spell his name) who was begging to be convicted because (i think) he was mentally ill has nyone else been convicted of terrorism in the last seven years?

There have been a few others in addition to Moussaoui.

www.usdoj.gov/opa/pr/2006/June/06_crm_389.html

Alice X (Chomsky Nader) status quObama - change you can pretend in - @ 20:

Gryphen @ 8:

Any teenager in a high school civics class could have told the Bush administration that if they tortured these men they would never be able to use that information to try them. Or even any kid who spent any time watching "Law & Order" reruns.

Obviously that is why the administration tried so hard to keep these detainees from getting their day in court. Sadly for George Bush, he is President of the United States of America and we are indeed a nation of laws. He cannot simply do what he wants simply because he stole two elections from the American people.

It is my fervent hope that he gets the opportunity to see just how those laws can be applied to his own criminal activity.

Unfortunately, the American legal system is now a two tier system, as initiated by our glorious criminal leader and instituted by our illustrious craven congress.

Here is what the lower tier gets for email eavesdropping.

But the congress and brere obama has just given bushco and his henchmen a complete pass for the very same thing times 300 million.

That of course is only one of the class of crimes the Boy Fuhrer has perpetrated.

If you are going to educate your children in ethics, you might want to take them to another country, or at least reference another country in your civics class.

As far as ethics is concerned, this one is finished.

Which is also to say that we are no longer a nation of laws, but of men: the powerful.

George W. Bush, unless he were impeached, which will not happen, will pardon all of his cronies and himself.

That pardon will be immutable in this country, if the law is followed.

The pardon will mean nothing in other countries that may want to prosecute his war crimes, were Bush et al to wander into a hostile jurisdiction.

Personally, I think that the Courts are not just looking at the Legal issue on torture, but looking at what the International Courts are doing, all one has to do is look toward :

"Former Bosnian Serb President Radovan Karadzic, accused architect of massacres and the politician considered most responsible for the deadly siege of Sarajevo..."

This is a case that needs to be watched very-very closely!

MikeD @ 24:

xoites defends Constitution @ 6:

The whole concept of enlisting torture techniques we copied from the Communists whose sole purpose was to pry FALSE confessions out of victims makes all "justification" for our torturing detainees null and fucking void!

Sorry, I have to object to the idea that "we" suddenly had to learn torture from the evil commies. We've been teaching it to our surrogates at the School of Americas and using it (via those surrogates) for decades in South America, Vietnam, and Africa. One reason I retch a little every time someone talks about John McCain's awful torture is thinking about what was being done to soldiers on the other side by the South Vietnamese and the US. Read some stuff about the Phoenix Program some times. Stress positions are mild compared to the stuff done to vietnamese suspected of being insurgents.

But we specifically learned those techniques from the Communists. We have indeed been using them for decades.

xoites defends Constitution @ 29:

MikeD @ 24:

xoites defends Constitution @ 6:

The whole concept of enlisting torture techniques we copied from the Communists whose sole purpose was to pry FALSE confessions out of victims makes all "justification" for our torturing detainees null and fucking void!

Sorry, I have to object to the idea that "we" suddenly had to learn torture from the evil commies. We've been teaching it to our surrogates at the School of Americas and using it (via those surrogates) for decades in South America, Vietnam, and Africa. One reason I retch a little every time someone talks about John McCain's awful torture is thinking about what was being done to soldiers on the other side by the South Vietnamese and the US. Read some stuff about the Phoenix Program some times. Stress positions are mild compared to the stuff done to vietnamese suspected of being insurgents.

But we specifically learned those techniques from the Communists. We have indeed been using them for decades.

We had no need to learn them from Communists, we'd already done them first to Indian tribes, then to Catholic and Muslim tribes in the Philippines. Communism didn't take power in Russia until 7 years after we finally beat down the last resistance from patriotic Philippine Muslim tribesmen and some 20-odd years after the conventional end of the "Indian Wars" (Wounded Knee Massacre.)

xoites defends Constitution @ 32:

General_Rennenkampf @ 31:

xoites defends Constitution @ 29:

MikeD @ 24:

But we specifically learned those techniques from the Communists. We have indeed been using them for decades.

We had no need to learn them from Communists, we'd already done them first to Indian tribes, then to Catholic and Muslim tribes in the Philippines. Communism didn't take power in Russia until 7 years after we finally beat down the last resistance from patriotic Philippine Muslim tribesmen and some 20-odd years after the conventional end of the "Indian Wars" (Wounded Knee Massacre.)

Then i stand corrected. I was quoting Jane Mayer who wrote The Dark Side.

'Tis OK, many people care not to remember about how our soldiers behaved in the Indian Wars and against the Filipinos. I think even fewer people realize, if they know of the Aguinaldo Rebellion that the Filipinos that would actually stand up for Filipino rights for the next several years would be Muslims. As a person from a region with a history of slavery and apartheid and ethnic cleansing, I care to remind people of what wrongs we've all got blood on our hands for.

General_Rennenkampf @ 31:

xoites defends Constitution @ 29:

MikeD @ 24:

xoites defends Constitution @ 6:
Sorry, I have to object to the idea that "we" suddenly had to learn torture from the evil commies. We've been teaching it to our surrogates at the School of Americas and using it (via those surrogates) for decades in South America, Vietnam, and Africa. One reason I retch a little every time someone talks about John McCain's awful torture is thinking about what was being done to soldiers on the other side by the South Vietnamese and the US. Read some stuff about the Phoenix Program some times. Stress positions are mild compared to the stuff done to vietnamese suspected of being insurgents.

But we specifically learned those techniques from the Communists. We have indeed been using them for decades.

We had no need to learn them from Communists, we'd already done them first to Indian tribes, then to Catholic and Muslim tribes in the Philippines. Communism didn't take power in Russia until 7 years after we finally beat down the last resistance from patriotic Philippine Muslim tribesmen and some 20-odd years after the conventional end of the "Indian Wars" (Wounded Knee Massacre.)

American troops have employed waterboarding for over a century at least. When it was used against Phillippino freedom fighters insurgents around 1900, it was called "the water cure."

Mick; no longer exotic @ 35:

General_Rennenkampf @ 31:

xoites defends Constitution @ 29:

MikeD @ 24:

But we specifically learned those techniques from the Communists. We have indeed been using them for decades.

We had no need to learn them from Communists, we'd already done them first to Indian tribes, then to Catholic and Muslim tribes in the Philippines. Communism didn't take power in Russia until 7 years after we finally beat down the last resistance from patriotic Philippine Muslim tribesmen and some 20-odd years after the conventional end of the "Indian Wars" (Wounded Knee Massacre.)

American troops have employed waterboarding for over a century at least. When it was used against Phillippino freedom fighters insurgents around 1900, it was called "the water cure."

Yeah...I just read that in Time magazine in an article about Mark Twain.

Just curious...can anything think of anything they wouldn't say to stop being tortured?

Since this is most likely their strongest case, this administration is definitely fu*ked. But of course, we already knew that.

liberalNmoderation @ 37:

Mick; no longer exotic @ 35:

General_Rennenkampf @ 31:

xoites defends Constitution @ 29:

We had no need to learn them from Communists, we'd already done them first to Indian tribes, then to Catholic and Muslim tribes in the Philippines. Communism didn't take power in Russia until 7 years after we finally beat down the last resistance from patriotic Philippine Muslim tribesmen and some 20-odd years after the conventional end of the "Indian Wars" (Wounded Knee Massacre.)

American troops have employed waterboarding for over a century at least. When it was used against Phillippino freedom fighters insurgents around 1900, it was called "the water cure."

Yeah...I just read that in Time magazine in an article about Mark Twain.

Have you ever read "A War Story?" It needs to be read much more often. Funnily enough, my senior year English teacher (I'll be a college freshman in August) had us read that story along with 3 or four others about it. The only positive story about warfare was written by a nonWesterner, a Japanese far-right kook that committed hara-kiri in the 1970s on public TV. All of the others were dark, anti-war stories. Pity that sort of education isn't more widespread.

Republican solution to this problem: GET RID OF THE JUDGES

Besides the torture, another travesty of justice is the fact that the War Crimes Laws under which these prisoners are being tried did not even exist in their present form until amended by the Congress in 2006 to make these prisoners' alleged behavior illegal.

Under the original US War Crimes Laws only Bush and his gang could be held responsible for THEIR crimes against the Iraqi and Afghanistani people - and whoever else they tortured.

But under the re-write of US War Crimes Laws these "enemy combatants" became the focus of our War Crime Laws.

This kind of retroactive law, charging people kidnapped in foreign lands for "crimes" that were not "crimes" at the time they were allegedly committed is itself a war crime.

I can see that this judge has played right into the hands of the administration. If any of the real evidence, besides confessions, could have proved this guy was guilty, there would have been no need for torture (not that there ever is a need for torture). But since the criminals in the white house were able to make this guy say anything they wanted, now he is too dangerous to let go. Even if he is found not guilty. All the admnistration needs to do is torture up some more "evidence" and they can keep everyone for as long as they like. The president is no longer bound by either of the other two branches of government, as we have seen countless times already. So don't expect any of these "bad guys" to be going anywhere but back to Gitmo for some more fun and free dentistry.

MikeD @ 24:

xoites defends Constitution @ 6:

The whole concept of enlisting torture techniques we copied from the Communists whose sole purpose was to pry FALSE confessions out of victims makes all "justification" for our torturing detainees null and fucking void!

Sorry, I have to object to the idea that "we" suddenly had to learn torture from the evil commies. We've been teaching it to our surrogates at the School of Americas and using it (via those surrogates) for decades in South America, Vietnam, and Africa. One reason I retch a little every time someone talks about John McCain's awful torture is thinking about what was being done to soldiers on the other side by the South Vietnamese and the US. Read some stuff about the Phoenix Program some times. Stress positions are mild compared to the stuff done to vietnamese suspected of being insurgents.

See School Of Americas Watch

Let's see how long that judge lasts.

And who has the right to 'fire' him?
And who oversees that?
And what have the "overseers" done lately?

If our rights aren't protected by those overseers, those men stand NO chance, ultimately.

You can laugh at his demise.
But you're going down with him.

harley @ 40:

Verdillac @ 15:

slightly off topic: file this quote under "overwhelming irony":

War is good when good survives and evil is crushed. If you don't crush evil then evil will get you.
Ted Nugent

The same draft dodging, chicken hawk, Bush apologist/next door neighbor Nugent?

The same...I love the quote, becaue it will come home to roost on him one day soon. Ted Nugent: He who stood to be counted on the side of Evil via the present White House Administration. He who supports the illegal War of Lies in Iraq, Afghanistan and in the USA. He who condemns those who value logic, reason and facts as "liberals", as if the word is dirty somehow..

I can go on, but I'll let everyone else have a chance to pin more hypocrisy medals on his chest...

Out of curiosity, am I the only one here who actually did find himself surprised the tortured confession was thrown out, given the way the Bush Admin. has orchestrated the rest of the things they have these past several years?

Mike35 @ 57:

Out of curiosity, am I the only one here who actually did find himself surprised the tortured confession was thrown out, given the way the Bush Admin. has orchestrated the rest of the things they have these past several years?

No, I was suprised too.

Pleasantly suprised.

I am expecting a White House Hissy-Fit real soon!

I look foward to seeing Bush and CO. all stand Trial For WAR CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY
Look where we are as a country after the excuse of 911
For those Doubters that continue to think that somehow terrorists took over aircraft with boxcutters Contact your represenatives and ask why no one has seen the Pentagon
Videos and what doe's seeing them have anything to do with National Security

Take it as a revelation: Many in the Bush Admin. and others will be holding their guns against their heads in order to avoid trial and sentencing.
Big bosses would expect that from their underlings.

The Judge seems like a good guy.

THings are not always as they seem though.

.....First Cheney, THEN Bushy. Followed by Rove, Ashcroft, Rummy, Gonzales, Mukasey, Pelosi, Reid..and anyone else who aided and abetted this criminal administration......

How about giving it a rest on Pelosi and Reid? The strategy was obviously to let the Bush criminals dig their hole so big that only The Hague can take care of them just as it's now about to take care of Karadzic.

Well damn... The judge threw a monkey wrench into George and Dicks excellent sham tribunal???? He's just not all that jiggy with torture provided information??? Huh...Well, I guess that's a judge who won't be invited the next white house easter egg hunt... I imagine he'll be busy trying to get a new job to miss that lack of invitation..... But I gotta ask in the context of this thread about judges, and justice and the law and criminal behavior.... Why are the real perps responsible for these last eight years of shit still running around free, getting free health care on 'our dime and fucking up this nation with their braindead decisions and policies... Why is that??... Nancy? Harry? Beauhler..anyone???
.................JD

For the same reasons the Palestinians got only lip service until they started their Intifada in 2000.

Centrocitta @ 72:

For the same reasons the Palestinians got only lip service until they started their Intifada in 2000.

They tried an Intifada before, and found that sticks and stones don't work that well against tanks and automatic rifles. It's little surprise that Palestinians should be pissed, I would be if I was in their shoes. Not sure what my opinion would be if I was a Jewish person, though.

dosido Says: "Even Bush deserves a fair trial."

I would give him as fair a trial as he has seen fit to give the people he had locked up for seven years in Gitmo with no formal charges.

Pilatunes @ 77:

Luckily American citizens will never be tortured by our corrupt government-that’s a line i don’t think the Repugs would even cross…

I think your optimism is badly misplaced.

Jose Padilla.

Listen up Congress!!!
A judge is refusing to admit evidence that was obtained using torture. What is it going to take to get you off your complicit asses and impeach this s.o.b. that ordered the torturing to be done?

To General Zod: Just how naive are you?

I still can't get over these 'war crimes' trials.

Osama bin Laden's driver?

I mean, his DRIVER?

For f#%k's sake.

Imagine if Erich Kempka had stood in the dock at Nuremberg beside Goering and Hess.

And imagine if he'd been joined by some Hitler Youth kid who'd been 'arrested' for participating in fighting that killed one American soldier.

Fighting. In a war.

It's beyond a joke. It's a nightmare from which America's international reputation might never recover.

Doodah @ 81:

dosido @ 71:

Even Bush deserves a fair trial.

Why?

Giving the roach shit President a fair trial would mark the beginning of this nation's restoration of the rule of law.

General Zod @ 85:

Tom Belt @ 80:

Listen up Congress!!!
A judge is refusing to admit evidence that was obtained using torture. What is it going to take to get you off your complicit asses and impeach this s.o.b. that ordered the torturing to be done?

To General Zod: Just how naive are you?

American citizens will not be tortured by it's own government- The government will think nothing of killing non Americans, but Americans would never allow Americans to be tortured- i think both parties would be united in condemnation of the torture of Americans. America is supposed to stand for freedom.

I can only assume, given that even modestly informed people are aware of what happened to Jose Padilla, that this is either satire, or you have a block of timber for a head.

BTW, 'torture' doesn't necessarily involve a pair of pliers and a blowtorch.

A few months of total sensory deprivation will do the job nicely. No visible scars, just total internal destruction of a human being.

TakeOurCountryBack @ 67:

Gitmo War Crimes Trial: Judge Bars All Evidence Obtained By Torture.

The underlying fact here is that torture is ILLEGAL!

Dennis Kuchinch is correct........... IMPEACH! IMPEACH! IMPEACH!

Can you hear this Pelousy, Con-ya, Greed, Whoreyer........It's ILLEGAL!
The president is a war criminal along with most of his administration!
Is impeachment still off the table now that you could all be found guilty of aiding and abetting these criminals?

It does seem to be heavily parsed... "... ruling he was subjected to “highly coercive” conditions..."
Is this like saying the yellow rose isn't a rose, because it's yellow and roses are red? But by any other name, it IS a rose.
... And torture is just the same by any other name.

.

General Zod the naive fool said:

The government will think nothing of killing non Americans, but Americans would never allow Americans to be tortured

Jose Padilla was held for years without any criminal charges. And he yes was tortured.

The Bush government thinks nothing of torturing Americans, or holding American citizens for years without charges, or kidnapping us and taking us to foreign countries for torture. They've already proved that.

You a fucking fool if you think such crimes must be the rule not the exception to make it true.

And you are even a bigger fool if you believe they've never killed American citizens in one of their secret torture gulags. We will discover the proof of that eventually, that I am sure of.

America is supposed to stand for freedom

Well it did, once upon a time. But whether that was undeserved or not, it no longer matters. As the Bushies used to say when they wanted to justify every thing they did, "9-11 changed everything". America now has political prisoners. America is now on the list of human rights violators and abuses of watchdog groups like Amnesty International. America is now like any third-world tin-pot dictatorship that seeks to secretly imprison and torture even its own citizens.

Did you ever consider that fools like yourself share some responsibility for that? That sort of willful ignorance and obstinate refusal of the truth is exactly what many Germans hid behind in the 30's and 40's. Tacit enablers, is what they were. Or are you really so stupid you had no idea? No interest in truth you never bothered to read newspapers or blogs or even spend 10 seconds with Google?

You sound like the perfect Bushie stooge: someone who wants to be too dumb to realize what's up, and too willing to ignore the truth even if it's literally right in your face.

General Zod @ 85:

Tom Belt @ 80:

Listen up Congress!!!
A judge is refusing to admit evidence that was obtained using torture. What is it going to take to get you off your complicit asses and impeach this s.o.b. that ordered the torturing to be done?

To General Zod: Just how naive are you?

American citizens will not be tortured by it's own government- The government will think nothing of killing non Americans, but Americans would never allow Americans to be tortured- i think both parties would be united in condemnation of the torture of Americans. America is supposed to stand for freedom.

Um, when has being a US citizen ever stopped the US from screwing you over? It's not like when the US forced my area to give the blacks citizenship that it really stopped us from starting Jim Crow. What we are supposed to stand for has little measure in reality. Why do you think that Indians are now out of sight and out of mind?

I always told my daughter that, if ya lie,cheat, and deceive, your house of cards will eventually come tumbling down.