Indicted For War Crimes, Sudan Cites U.S. As Example Why It Needn't Comply
By Bill W. Monday Jul 21, 2008 8:40pm
Last week, Luis Moreno-Ocampo, chief prosecutor for the International Criminal Court (ICC) filed charges for the first time against a sitting head of state, charging President Omar al-Bashir of Sudan with three counts of genocide, five counts of crimes against humanity and two counts of war crimes. Fareed Zakaria had Sudan's ambassador to the United Nations on his CNN show, GPS, to discuss the charges, which he called "a joke" and cited the U.S.' 2002 withdrawal from the ICC treaty as an example of why Sudan does not recognize the court's authority and will not cooperate with it:
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ZAKARIA: Will your government mount a defense in the International Criminal Court?
MOHAMAD: We have no relation with the International Criminal Court. We don't recognize its authority. We are not going to cooperate with it.
ZAKARIA: But of course, you know that other governments that did not recognize the Criminal Court were still forced to extradite their leaders. I'm thinking of Yugoslavia.
MOHAMAD: No. I don't care about them. As far as we are concerned, we are not members. We have been told these days repeatedly that the ICC is an independent body. And so, OK, if it's an independent body, I am not a U.N. organ. We have full right to be part of it or not. And we choose not to be part of it, like the United States. ...(full transcript)
Complicating the ICC's ability to pursue war crimes charges, as referenced in the interview by Sudan's UN ambassador, is President Bush's "unsigning" of the International Criminal Court treaty in 2002. Though President Bush has publicly denounced the killings in Sudan as genocide, the administration has soft-pedaled sanctions against the Sudanese government to preserve its extensive intelligence collaboration with Sudan, once a safe haven for bin Laden that has become a crossroads for Islamic militants making their way to Iraq and Pakistan.
The most major impediment to ending the genocide in Darfur has been China's longstanding diplomatic protection and economic support in return for its access to the 500,000 barrels of oil that Sudan produces daily. China, also not a signatory to the ICC treaty, was revealed in a report about a week ago by the BBC to be in violation of the UN arms embargo there through its export of weapons and training of fighter pilots.
Supporters of Barack Obama who would like to see the United States reembrace the International Criminal Court (ICC) treaty, thereby reaffirming its commitment to human rights, have created a group on the candidate's website, my.barackobama.com.
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The United Nations is a joke, we can thank the United States and Israel for completely neglecting international laws.
... and encouraging other member states to do the same.
It's good to know we're still leading by example in SOME parts of the world.
The reason the Republicans are against the International Criminal Court is because their asses would be the first ones hauled before it. Like with everything else the GOP excuse is always "to protect American people" from misuse but that's a crock. It's all about protecting themselves nothing more.
Oh God... this is a really sad example of the United States dragging the international community down with it when we fail to live up to our ideals. I have said to people in the past that there are people in this country who have the idea that because other countries violate human rights, it is somehow ok for us to to stoop to their level... Now, we have stooped low enough that others are stooping to our low level... :(
I mentioned this the other day when someone was insisting America had a right to attack Pakistan with military strikes if we knew OBL was there.
I argued that would mean countries like China might use our rationale to attack Taiwan in their own "War on Terror."
I was practically called a troll.
This thread seems to vindicate my view.
This really underlines the great stinking pile of shit that has resulted from Bush's extreme interpretation of the dubious principle of American exceptionalism. Exceptionalism, by the way, is actually the bastard child of Manifest Destiny and the Monroe Doctrine.
As I recall it was the US that established at Nuremberg the idea that rulers of countries should be held responsible for taking their country into unjustified wars of aggression. That concept is too important to allow anybody to be excluded or to exclude themselves from justice. And somebody should tell congress that by letting Bush essentially pardon himself, they become accessories to his crimes.
Zakaria does a beautiful job of framing at the end of the piece, "in case you're wondering why you haven't heard much on all of this from Washington..." Uh huh. But do you think there's any chance of this hitting a wider audience on Situation Room or any other of CNN's more popular programs? I doubt it.
Finally the pot has called the kettle black, as my late grandmother used to say. Oh yah umm george what that means is Sudan is saying if "you don't have to then we sure as hell won't"
Damn, snap!
The Ambassador even speaks better English than Bush.
omg...the Bush Defense has finally come into real existance....
still banging head.....might need bandaids....
oh , wait.....that means a KNOWN torturer is Identifying Bush as a REAL torturerer.....
WHAT does that mean....
Annaleigh @ 5:
Don't worry, you'll be cut loose as soon as possiable and let fall, as soon as the money is sorted out. The US isn't "stooping" to anyone's level, it's just not bothering with the amazing PR and hiding everything any more, as it has done for years. Though now it is ramping up the destruction.
William Dylan @ 1:
Spoken like a true americon, and I wonder why the UN has the reputation is does in the US; because it dosen't agree with it murdering and raping when and where it wants so it does the typical Karl Rove on it and carries on with the butchering and raping.
Go team america, mission accomplished.
Ruthless People @ 4:
The obvious corollary is that they wouldn't have dared to do half the things that they've done if the U.S. were still a signatory of the international court.
Uh...didn't Serbia just capture Radovan Karadzic? I guess this also means they don't have to turn him over to the international court because the U.S. is saying it's not legitimate anymore. (Either that or the typical attitude of 'international war crimes tribunals are for little people. My dad gave me a get out of jail free card.')
King crappish! That is what Bush is. Every damn thing he got his greedy hands on he twisted half ass around to benifit his ´´base´´
Bush needs to go and fast and pray no news nets cover his sorry ass for any follow ups. wtf good did he ever do for america? Nothing and piss off Bob geldoff and his time mag cover of bush in africa trying to do good. Bobby your a $$ whore sell out who would bed the devil for a few shillings!
And you all say Bush isn't an international leader.
Pericles @ 12:
They have ignored the laws of their own land, they would do the same to any other body regardless.
The typical american attitude and opinion is that they are above and better than the world, hence their behaviour and why the constantly prove the opposite of both are true.
The US isn't even really a member of the international community, it's a squabbling child in international terms, it just happens to the latest to of stolen the majority of power and has the most weapons.
Thankfully that is changing and the US is going down hard.
And we choose not to be part of it, like the United States. …
(Gee, I wonder what that means.
Jerry @ 11: Don't worry, you'll be cut loose as soon as possiable and let fall, as soon as the money is sorted out. The US isn't "stooping" to anyone's level, it's just not bothering with the amazing PR and hiding everything any more, as it has done for years. Though now it is ramping up the destruction.
As I sit here and think about it, it's true that we've always had our government do some odious things, and it was always covered up somehow... I admit I never thought I'd see the day where it is completely in the open and our government has absolutely no shame about it. I am young though, I probably still have a lot to learn where this is concerned...
Jerry @ 15:
Sigh...*scratches head*
Well, I guess the Unites States as the world hegemon is going to be CLOSED FOR RENOVATIONS until further notice. Have fun playing with the Russians and the Chinese everybody.
The US has no credibility regarding international war crimes. How frigging embarassing. Weren't we supposed to be a beacon of freedom and hope, or something along those lines?
Well, this is sobering. I truly believe our reputation is in the toilet. Thanks Harry and Nancy for taking impeachment of the table. We are truly becoming a third world country.
ysbaddaden @ 6:
Troll.
Joe Tseng @ 19:
Well yah you guys are,well maybe were
If you want to address genocide, then you have address the situations in Iraq and Afghanistan and Gaza.
It came back postage due.
Is Bill W any relation to george w?
WE ARE A NATION OF WAR CRIMINALS.
laws don't apply to wealthy members of the gop, so why should they obey them.
lmao!!! another example of when the Democrats could have led by what's right and convict both of those traitorous cowards gw and cheney to send a message to the world that the U.S. still has values. This is not going to be the last time that others around the world are going to expect the same exemption being given to these two lying murderous thugs. I hope so much it doesn't happen, but sooner or later someone is going to capture an American soldier, and on what grounds is the U.S. going to say he must not be tortured or humiliated or held for an unlimited time?
The republic is finished all except the death rattles when it hasn't the will to save itself.
what do you expect when bush and cheney have
thumbed their noses and given the finger to any
Constitutional and World law.
you can be sure that bush will move to paraguay
after his term is up to avoid being tried for his
crimes here is the U S and his crimes against
humanity outside the U S.
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article20333.htm
a link here how it ALL started and here how its ALL going to end,
http://www.metroland.net/features.html
Iam seeing this S"""T first hand as my brother is homeless and has lime disease in nys and DSS knocked em off except for medical. Dude has no credit card debts just down on his luck and in nys that means,, you mean shit! Unless of course your ´´special´´ use your own judgment .
Please read both links folks and start getting ready. This isint a Ö tactic but living here in germany since 8 years iam seeing you americans (as i am) being treated like crap more and more and those that worked hard,, get the short end of the stick!!! ENOUGH is really Enough.
Fight back !
If hundreds of thousands are killed in the civil war in the Sudan, with hundreds of thousands of refugees is a Genocide, what do we call the hundreds of thousands killed in the civil war in the Iraq, with hundreds of thousands of refugees? Why shouldn't Bush, Cheney, The Congress, The Military, and the Media not be "Brought To Justice" for war crimes against humanity? If they didn't rule over a nation of whiners and cowards, Bush and Cheney would be swinging from a streetlight in Washington D.C.!
It's of interest to note that Bush was pushing toward taking the US outside the authority of the ICC even before he invaded Iraq.
In legal circles, wouldn't you call that evidence of malice aforethought?
Its time for a new america,,,,,,,,,really time.
if gore's challenge to produce a viable, commercially operating alternative energy resource to oil in ten years comes to fruition things will change. countries like sudan are suddenly going to find themselves "living in very interesting times" when the value of their petroleum reserves drops like a lead balloon.
no place to run...no place to hide when the leverage runs out.
ysbaddaden @ 23:
they're friends
Pericles @ 12:
Bush and Cheney are two of the biggest terrorists on the planet. Bush: "Saddam gased his own people". Yea and Bush killed 4000, and counting, of his own people plus is responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Iraqi men, women and children. Bush has gotten more of Saddam's people killed than Saddam!
It will be a great day for national and international justice when Bush and Cheney are hauled to The Hague. We'll never see it, but it would be a great day nonetheless.
http://www.informationclearing.....e20333.htm
the start,,,
http://www.metroland.net/features.html
and the end.
with that i bid you all fellow americans a fine goodnight and thanks again for C&L for a great blog as well. take care all and
ttyl later
Best regards,,,
In a similar vein:
BBC: UK 'must check' US torture denial
Friar Tuck @ 31:
If we can keep this election out of the hands the reich wing Supreme Court we may have it.
They make a good point -- If George can torture, why can't we?
RP, also remember that Saddam got the gas from Rumsfeld to 'gas his own people'. And the majority of the killing done by Saddam was at the direction of the US.
As a matter of fact the majority of killing done by Osama Bin Laden was directed, supported, sponsored, by the US. Al queda doesn't even exist in reality, it is just a database of CIA agents to be used as patsies.
I don't think that the US should belong to any world organizations like the International Criminal Court, but if they end up being the only ones who bring the crimes of Bush/Cheney, etc. to light, that would be great. We need to push the spineless Democrats into doing their Constitutional duties and IMPEACH our War Criminals NOW!!
"Supporters of Barack Obama who would like to see the United States reembrace (sic) the International Criminal Court (ICC) treaty, thereby reaffirming its commitment to human rights, have created a group on the candidate’s website, my.barackobama.com.
Maybe this same group of Obama supporters could feel as passionate about the Constitution one day. Before Obama's crew starts waiving the flag of indignation they should look at their, and their candidates, record of protecting rights at home.
hey...since the chimp has crowned the olympic team the "amabassadors of liberty" maybe we should just send them to the sudan rather than china
what a crazy fuck he is
I was just watching a documentary on PBS on the Devil's Brigade assault on Nazi positions on what sounded like Mt Defenza, but it is in Italy. This Brigade was apparently Canadian with some American help. They had a new troop of Canadians and Americans trained a few weeks in the intense style of the Devil's Brigade, who trained an entire year that way to reassault the mountain to help train German troops. The documentary interviewed surviving Devil's Brigade soldiers and Nazis.
On both occasions they scaled the mountain in the middle of the night, and without a map. One of todays soldiers got his face black and blue, and sounded proud showing off a chipped tooth when a soldier ahead of him accidentally loosened a rock larger than a wheel, and it smashed the other soldier in the face. A second large rock hit him. But he continued to go on with the drill because that's how it would've been handled 60 odd years ago.
The Devil's Brigade retook the mountain (both sides using blanks this time) and then explained to the Germans who were wearing old style Nazi uniforms what they did wrong, and probably what the original Nazis got wrong too.
Apparently 70 Devil's Brigade guys were killed in the 40's, but hundreds of Germans. Than the soldiers visited the graves around the mountain, and you could see they were getting upset around the graves reading the stones, identifying with men their age who died so many decades ago. Much to my Scottish pride they were playing the pipes while they did so.
One of the surviving Devil's Brigade soldier was overwhelmed by the attention of the documentary and these soldiers young enough to be their great-grandchildren.
The US is the perfect example to cite.
Annaleigh @ 5:
So? Lie down with dogs you get fleas, and the current Adminstration is nothing but a pack of bitches.
Just what is surprising about Sudan using us as an example? That they're using us as an example of genocide? I'm surprised they didn't cite our actions towards the Indians or our breaking the Nuremberg precedent, that's more what I expected when I read the headline.
Stoop to their level? Looking at the US in the Cold War and its actions towards blacks and Indians (Jim Crow didn't end until well into the 70s in parts of the South and of course, the Wounded Knee incident), I'd question whether we ever were at a higher level to begin with! We've never been special, and pretending that we are is as stupid as anything else any other nation has come up with.
ysbaddaden @ 23:
Or the genocide begun in 1604 that the shooting part ended in 1890 and the cultural part is still ongoing...
ysbaddaden @ 6:
Anybody that called you that is as guilty of American exceptionalism as the Right. When the big dog does it, the rest of the pack does as well. This comes as a surprise to people considering our own history with Indians and Hawaiians? I'm not surprised at some attitudes here, at all.
Ruthless People @ 37:
you have to get past DIEBOLD, ESS and SEQUOIA. Then you have to dodge vote caging, voter fraud, voting roll purges and restrictions on voter registration. Then you may have to dodge police and other thugs who may challenge you at the polling place.
I remember this thug smirking in the General Assembly when Bush called what was happening in Darfur a genocide. Mainly because the Bushies have been in bed with the Sudan regime, as was the Clinton crew before him.
I hope to someday see him in the dock in The Hague. Maybe he and Bush can share a cell.
General_Rennenkampf @ 44:
Oh come on!!
The US - and the Spanish before them - ALWAYS gave their victims the opportunity to accept Jesus As Their Savior before torturing them to death.
Not at all like those evil Communists ..
P.D. @ 20:
we already are a third world country.
To anybody that'll have the idea of raising Bush and Cheney's Southern support in this thread: Hey, buddies, remember you bastards force us over and over again to own up to our history of slavery and ethnic cleansing. When are the Californians gonna have the balls to admit that their ancestors did actions of equal savagery to our lynchings, or the Westerners that many of the founders of the West Coast had a merry ol' time killing Indians? Don't wanna fess up? Don't wanna admit it was your great-great granddaddies that did it? Then don't be the least damn bit suprised that Bush and Cheney won't fess up to anything, either. Why should they fess up to it? It's not like we in the South have ever really apologized for our history of the CSA and the ethnic cleansings of Indians, but you Westerners bury your savagery towards Indians 6 feet by 6 feet deep and wonder where Bush and Cheney's brutalities in Iraq come from?
Don't make me ralph. Happy? No I'm not. Surprised that Sudan should point to Bush and Cheney? No I'm not. Surprised that Bush and Cheney are following a good ol' American tradition of illegal wars and practices without fessing up considering Southern, Northern, and Western history? Not one damned bit. Does this excuse Bush and Cheney? Hells, no, their actions are war crimes and deserve to be mentioned as such and tried for. But until we Southerners and ya'll Northerners and Westerners all admit to our own bloodguilt, this will keep happening, over and over again.
Sudan is right and even Bush agrees. No charges should be charged as the United States has done the same thing. The US not only bombed innocent Iraq citizens but we out right committed murder on woman and children. We torture, kidnap innocent people and keep them in jail without charges. We drug prisoners and rape men/woman/children while illegally held in Gitmo. We have seen many prisoners held for years and tortured then let go after many years. Some innocent prisoners were killed while being held by the US. Bush has made the United States the Terrorist of the World with his policies. Now as Bush will pardon myself, Cheney and others for crimes it looks like the United Nations will have to charge the Bush Administration with War Crimes and Crimes Against Humanity.
MountainMan23 @ 49:
See my post at 51. Until the South can apologize for slavery and Jim Crow and the ethnic cleansings, and the North and West for what they did and still do to Indians, like we still do to Indians and blacks, this nightmare of colonial warfare will still continue because its first manifestation was never addressed.
Robin @ 40:
thank you, Robin.
Robin @ 40:
Yes, how are things at the reservations in your state these days? Has your state government kept its treaties with Indians? Didn't think so. And then people are shocked at Iraqs and the Banana Wars and Operation Ajaxes.
you talk about the crimes in iraq but what could this government be hideing in afganistan? surely we have taken prisoners , is thier more abugrabs there more rape rooms more sodomy tourtures ,waterboarders, what secrets still remain in afganistan ? only the shadow knows!
P.D. @ 20:
Considering our actions towards Indians and blacks, was it ever not in the toilet? The trail of broken treaties, slavery and segregation, and the trail of tears say otherwise.
Fuck the international criminal court.
What part of the constitution don't you understand? No treaties shall be signed that give authority in contradiction of the constitution.
The problem with us signing the ICC is that it would be unconstitutional to do so. Look, I hate Bush as much as the next liberal, but the ICC is a joke. If Bush did ONE constitutional act during his term, it was rejecting the ICC. What are we suppose to join the European socialist Union next too?
GW is directly responsible for hundreds of thousands of Iraqi deaths and indirectly responsible for about a million. The fact that his defense department actively covers up the number of non-combatant deaths is in itself a crime. Unfortunately I don't see anything coming out of the Obama camp on righting the wrongs that have been done. I'm pretty sure if he came out and said he was going to prosecute everyone in the current regime to the fullest extent of the law, he wouldn't make it to Nov. 4th.
46 General_Rennenkampf
Well, to be fair, when they guy accused me of being a kumbya liberal, I explained that I prefer intelligence, commandoes and special ops type deals. Surgically remove the cancer but leave everyone else alone, and not depend on kids from Gooberville Texas playing soldiers.
Ideally they wouldn't be caught, and if the host country got wind of our involvement we might need to bribe them with cultural exchanges and/or technology transfers. Especially since someone like OBL is a Saudi not a Pakistani, and may not be welcomed there either.
Than I made a joke about prefering kumenya.
Is this what Reagan meant by "shining city upon a hill"? America: a shining beacon of hope for all who want to ignore international human rights law and start unproved pre-emptive wars.
Maybe we should also get the USA to stop sending in the CIA to split that country apart so we can take its oil.
Do you really think anyone would give a crap about those 300, 000+ deaths if it wasn't about the OIL OIL OIL...
Sudan is China's largest overseas oil project. China is Sudan's largest supplier of arms, according to a former Sudan government minister. Chinese-made tanks, fighter planes, bombers, helicopters, machine guns and rocket-propelled grenades have intensified Sudan's two-decade-old north-south civil war.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A21143-2004Dec22.html
Tony @ 58:
please type your ignorance elsewhere
61 John Winthrop Says: Is this what Reagan meant by “shining city upon a hill”? ___________________________________________________________________
We will be after the atomic wars.
Oh yeah, and General, although the guy used a term like liberal kumabaya, I susepct he wasn't reichwing. The unspoken part was who actually made that statement about a possible unilateral U. S. military strikes in Pakistan to capture Ben Laden? It wasn't mccain, but Barack Obama. Because I wouldn't accept it, and almost said in certain words that it was the stupidest idea I've ever heard, meant of course I was a troll.
ysbaddaden @ 42:
Y -
Your post made me curious, so I did some Googling and found out about a movie made in 1968, called 'The Devil's Brigade', starring William Holden, Cliff Robertson and Claude Aikins. There is much silly stereotyping about rough-tough Americans and polite, competent Canucks - but it looks like it would be worth seeing.
Devil's Brigade Trailer:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZpxYvKtVnzw&NR=1
Scene - 'the Canadians arrive':
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1awwAgU_t8
Good. If Barack becomes President, then the guilty parties within the current administration can be sent to the Hague and tried.
That would go a loooong way into restoring the standing the U.S has in the world. It would also be a return to some semblance of leadership by example.
Tony @ 58:
In what way is it unconstitutional?
BC @ 67:
obama has no intention of seeing any in the bush administration tried for thier crimes!
swampfox @ 68:
You know this how? Obama has already said in no uncertain terms that he try to will see Bush held accountable in our (in)justice system:
Re-joining the treaty to the International Criminal Court that Clinton signed onto and Congress ratified before Bush pulled out is perhaps the easiest thing Obama could do. I hope to see Obama asked about it, and soon.
BC @ 67:
It's unconstitutional in the same way that just being a member of the UN is unconstitutional to many Republicons. they are the first ones to use any other country's violations of international law as an excuse to start a war against them (see Iraq) but they refuse to believe the US could be held to any of those same international laws or institutions. They suffer from hypocritical international nationalistic narcissism. Then they fail to comprehend why the world hates us more and more all the time.
justabill @ 69:
then obama has changed his mind because obama stated he had no interest in spending his time with going after the bush administration because he has to move on to new buisness , but he said hes going to have his new ag look into bushes administration and IF thier are crimes he may look into it if his ag recomends it!
swampfox @ 71:
Got a link to that? I provided a link to back up what I'm saying, as I always do. It's called netiquette.
I like to think I keep my ear to the ground on such things, and that would be news to me.
justabill @ 72:
if youll read your link i said the same thing obama said as close as i could from memory, hes not interested in causeing a blowup with the republicans!
Here's that "legacy" the Chimp is so worried about.
swampfox @ 73:
Um, ok, if you mean before the election he didn't want it portrayed like he was promising to go on a witch hunt. After the election he promised to have his AG look into any crimes that may have been committed by Bushco, and...
that's a far cry from what you're saying.
justabill @ 75:
how far a cry is it, if your encouraged and think hes going after bush enjoy the moment! let me know how it works out for you this time next year when bush is still a free man cause nobody went after him,
Pericles @ 12:
When I heard CNN's report today about Karadzic's crimes and the timeline of his involvement throughout the 1990s I could have sworn that they were talking about Arik Sharon, until they said his name.
swampfox @ 76:
Will do just that. However glass half full/half empty this conversation may have sounded, it's apparent your "obama has no intention of seeing any in the bush administration tried for thier crimes!" has no basis in reality whatsoever, other than your predilection to assume whatever you want to and state it as fact. Hopefully you will be voting for Obama so you can prove your point. See you next year.
I should have included this website for some background information:
http://www.ifamericansknew.org
If you like charts then check this out:
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/homes.html#source
justabill @ 78:
you have proved nothing with your link , obama says someting on monday and says it differently on tuesday, but you really think hes going to spend a year of his time going after bush, hes going to say he doesnt want to be accused of partisan politics by the repigs who hes going to have to work with to get things done ,hes going to give bush a reach around!
Tony @ 58:
Spoken like a true (completely ignorant & predictable) american ...... you shud doooo some of that there lerrrin before talkinzgs.....
Annaleigh @ 17:
As I sit here and think about it, it's true that we've always had our government do some odious things, and it was always covered up somehow... I admit I never thought I'd see the day where it is completely in the open and our government has absolutely no shame about it. I am young though, I probably still have a lot to learn where this is concerned...
There is no such things as "truth" as it it anyway; it takes a lot of people a while to learn that, hence why so many americans hold so fast to their guns and bibles as they can't evolve to anything else.
As for learning, yes that is the one thing you should do, on all sides. First thing to accept is that your media is a tool, nothing else, there is no such thing as "reporting" or "investigative" journalism in the US. It is a insulting joke to the educated around the world every time CNN. Fox. et al come on. Fake puppets though and though. The only people close to being real on US "news" TV are foreign anyway, albeit less part of their soul for being part of the US machine.
Pericles @ 18:
The rest of the world already is playing with the Russians and Chinese, we have been for ages, it's just the US sitting there rattling it's sabre trying to shout at the world about how amazing it is trying to inflict it's bland obese and sad excuse for a society and culture on the world while taking by force what it wants.
Your precious "hegemon" is on the way out thankfully, the US shows itself to the world on a daily basis as to exactly what it is, by it's actions, rape, torture, murder and bold faced lies about it by it's leaders laughing, and then buy it's ignorant people towing their line.
justabill @ 78:
maby you should see obermans comments on the open thread ,post 21 it might enlighten you !
I get so frustrated when I hear these excuses not to prosecute. "It looks bad" or "It will make public service criminal". It's NOT being a public servant that would be criminal, it's the breaking of the fucking laws that is criminal.
If there is ANY justice in the world THIS should be scaring the hell out of bush.
Janet @ 83:
You noticed that too, eh? It's the same with the Karl Rove story. He loudly claims that nobody in the White House had anything to do with the US Attorneys' dismissal scandal or the persecution of Don Siegelman - then invokes executive privilege on those very matters. Which means two points really need to be said more often.
Executive Privilege only covers acts entailed in carrying out legitimate government business.
Rove's entire career in the WH has been in violation of the Hatch Act.
LOL. Yea that'll do it. Cause we all know how well Obama listens to the groups that form on his website.
Using the US as justification for ignoring International law.
Using the US as justification for Preemptive war
Using the US as justification for imprisonment without trial.
Using the US as justification for torture.
Using the US as justification to ignore the Geneva Conventions.
Using the US as justification for extraordinary rendition.
Using the US as justification for sidelining the UN.
Makes me so proud......sorry...... I just cant do it.
I am most definitely not proud of my country...and Thomas Jefferson would agree with me.
Plisko @ 85:
I know, but that group formed after Obama had made clear how he was going to vote on it. Getting his to change his mind then was a longshot, but that group did become the largest on his site and he caught hell from it even from the corp media. Hopefully he'll think twice before stirring that pot again.
In this case Obama hasn't staked out a position on this yet, and supporters of him have the opportunity to get out in front on it, like we should have on FISA. I'd like to see him asked whether he will support re-signing the ICC treaty, but not until its been made clear to him where his supporters stand on it.
Alessandra @ 86:
The slaveowner who believed that Indians weren't humans, they were mere Untermenschen, and when presented with and had contact with examples of educated and intelligent blacks instead of the farm animals he basically viewed them as would not possibly admit that Phyllis Wheatley was a poet or Benjamin Banneker actually was human like him? Don't make me laugh, Jefferson would be disgusted at the present-day society's racial mores.
Hands up, anyone who is surprised by Sudan's rationale.
One, two ... Hmm, okay. Republicans, are you? Thought so.
When the Bushies withdrew us from the ICC I could see this coming - other nations would refuse to cooperate with the War Crimes Tribunal based on America's non-cooperation. Sad to say, but it's the truth.
Now, what's next? Oh yes. The Bushite stance on the Geneva Conventions as quaint and outmoded in this day and age will go by the board in a flash the minute one of our soldiers gets taken POW (by an actual nation, not by a criminal gang). Demands for fair treatment will be met by "You don't do it, why should we?" followed by throwing our words back in our faces.
"Our?" Yes, indeedy. What's done by our government and the operatives thereof is done in OUR name.
The Wanderer @ 89:
Owned up to your Indians yet? Faced the history of Indian slaughter? Then until you do, Iraqs will keep happening. Genocide written out and ignored from our history is still genocide. The sins of the fathers have yet to be understood by the sons, and until they are, you'll keep not understanding how Iraqs can happen, and I'll keep telling you. I know the evil of my ancestors, of the CSA, of slavery and lynching. Methinks you haven't quite understood the evil of yours. The mindset of Iraq is the same that led my ancestors in the South to lynch an innocent blackman, and that led the North to shoot unarmed men, women, and children who are Indians.
If Bush and all the members of his criminal regime aren't worried, they should be. Also, the trial that is currently ongoing at GITMO does itself constitute a war crime; the people who are staging that trial are culpable.
I'd like to see the whole lot dragged in shackles and orange jumpsuits before the ICC to be tried, convicted and put away for the rest of their natural lives.
General Rennenkampf: Hi. Didn't I see you at Tannenberg?
Yes, thank you, I have owned up to my country's rather wonderful bloodsoaked history of genocidal wars, slavery and general assholery. Owned up to it about twenty-five years ago.
The Wanderer @ 92:
Good, then. We still have a long way to go, to own up that is. In the South people pretend Andrew Jackson's ethnic cleansing didn't happen and God help the poor soul who wants to try to find a trace of Indian-era living space in New England or California. It seems for some reason those two particular regions try to pretend the Natives were nonexistent. I wonder if their brutality towards them had something to do with it, and in the long run how Iraq could happen and nobody care.
And who didn't see this coming?
*
The US is full of these little do-as-we-say-not-as-we-do paradoxes. Take the arrest of Radovan Karadzic, known war criminal, and pending prosecution of this bastard at The Hague.
Why have we seen no statement from the US government applauding this arrest? The notion of war criminals being hunted down globally and bought to face justice in an international court is not a concept that Bush or Rice or Rumsfeld will ever be comfortable with or even acknowledge. One day soon it may well be Dick Cheney being on the run, hunted down, and being dragged out of a spider hole by US marines to face trial and certain execution. Or any of his buddies.
The clock is ticking.
Bush, Cheney, Rove, Rumsfeld, and the rest of these punks will undoubtedly end up in Paraguay at the 98,000 acre Family Rancho, laughing up their sleeves at the International Court and the rest of us. The Ranch, BTW, is guarded by a contingent of 400 US Marines who have been pardoned-in-advance by the Paraguayan government for any crimes they might commit. And at US Taxpayers' expense.
capnmike @ 96:
And Jim Morrison and Elvis live there as ranch hands....
LOL!
The most important question is whether reembracing the ICC polls well or not. Just ask Harold Ford, Chuck Schumer, Nancy Pelosi, Harry Reid, etc. ...
The United Nations is a joke, but what happens if it fails?
You will have the US "Axis" Block vs the Russia/Europe/South America/Africa/China/Middle Eastern/India Block. we will call those the "Allies"....
The revolt and war that it would bring should the UN fail could revive the US economy much like it did for Germany during WW2.
Think about this for a second? History will record that the American's became corrupted by their own Nazi' dealings and it's history of using Nazi scientists will be cited as a reason for the Moral Decay into Torture and Warcrimes.
Which is how I picture GWB's presidency ending... A False Flag attack on Montreal and a big nuke in Iran.
capnmike @ 96:
Count me in one of the people sent in to "bring them back dead or alive".
Folks? That is what it looks like when the 'other shoe' on this thumbing our noses at the international community over war crimes allegations.. 'drops'..
When our own tinpot dictator and our other political institutions thumbs their noses at the ICC, it gives license whether directly or indirectly for every other tinpot dictator to do the same...and they do..... Overall in the long run, and aside from all the finger pointing and/or carping about our own less than stellar behaviors in the past towards native born American indians or any other slighted groups of the past anywhere in the world from the time of Jesus and before forward... This does not bode well for the continued health or progress of civilization in general...
Many nations have war criminals running their political institutions... America now certainly among them. If there are no consequences for this current state of affairs, no place anyone can go to for relief? Then there is nothing beyond the pale someone won't go to, in order to achieve and retain power for its own sake, or over some misguided ideology or just plain old wealth greed. No act too dispicable that someone or some group won't take to get an edge or power over some other group.
Nuclear holocaust? No big deal if you think you have a cave deep enough and enough toys of your own to survive...
Biological warfare? What's the big deal if you think you have the antidote to survive....Ain't no big deal....
Economic calamity? Worldwide? Not an issue if you think you can control what will follow... You'll have all the toys, right? People will have to come to you to get what they need, right?....
All scenarios, just another win win.... to the immoral and amoral mind.....
I submit this kind of thinking and the shit it leads to has been with us all along, but with the current bald face nose thumbing purpetrated by the Bush administration, it has not only become 'in your face unavoidable to see', it's become downright fashionable as a preferred national policy....by more and more tinpot dictators and dictator wannabe's everywhere.
This has to change or we are doomed, finished as the dominate species on this planet. Whether today or tomorrow, if there is no worldwide consequences and condemnation over these kinds of behaviors, then sometime, probably sooner rather than later, someone with too much power, too many dangerous toys, and too much ego is going to do something to endanger us all worldwide... Simple as that.... and it will be real, not some secret agent movie from Hollywood... War crimes should have consequences for those who would purpitrate those kinds of atrocities... Even if the perps are from the 'first world', even if those perps have 'U.S. citizen' or 'President or Vice President' of the United States stamped on their passports........JD
I have to say- putting American troops lives in danger due to enforcing UN resolutions is immoral to me- so I can see why people don't want the US to be associated with the ICC or the UN. We're as big and beaurocratic a government as they come- what makes us think that an EVEN BIGGER institution will be run properly? If we got our own house in order- our justice system is supposed to be more than enough to try people like Bush and Cheney as war criminals.
There's no need to force Americans to accept a body of government that they never even had a say in. The UN, the ICC, the WTO- these international organizations seldom have the citizen's of those countries concerns at heart.
Hey just caught the end of the interview. Is that Fareed Zakaria fella one of John Boltons' team? He sure sound like a Bushie to me.
....hm. like the United States. Hm. Good point.
Re: El Rancho.....
http://www.indybay.org/newsitems/2006/10/19/18321646.php
good job america
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