Time to start rationing veterans' healthcare?
By Steve Benen Wednesday Jul 23, 2008 8:30amIt seems hard to imagine a presidential candidate, running in the midst of two wars, openly speculate about cutting back on veterans’ healthcare. And yet, here we are.
Republican presidential candidate Sen. John McCain appeared Tuesday to suggest rationing of veterans’ health care may be needed so combat veterans can receive the care they deserve.
At a town hall meeting in Dover, N.H., McCain talked about the need to “concentrate” veterans’ health care on people with injuries that “are a direct result of combat.”
“Right now, there are people who drive a long way and they stand in line to stand in line to get an appointment to get an appointment,” McCain said.
McCain’s campaign press office did not return a telephone call asking for clarification of the remarks.
Well, that’s not good at all.
The Washington Monthly ran a terrific cover story a couple of years ago, heralding the success of the VA system, and the quality of the medical care veterans receive. McCain may hold some kind of ideological grudge against the VA system — it is, after all, a form of socialized medicine — but even raising the prospect of rationing veterans’ health care seems like a remarkably bad idea. It’s not good policy, and it’s certainly not good politics.
Time’s Ana Marie Cox noted, “A year ago, it would have been difficult to believe that Obama could legitimately make McCain look bad on veterans’ issues. Then again, he’s had some help [from McCain].”
I think that probably sounds more draconian than it actually is; both campaigns acknowledge that there are massive problems with VA and in veterans’ care. And, having heard McCain speak passionately about the need to increase coverage for veterans’ mental health, it’s strange to hear him use the “direct result of combat” formulation. There are, unfortunately, a thousand different ways a soldier could come out of the military with PTSD; which ones would get priority under McCain’s formulation? Does having been shot at make you and more or less worth treating than, I don’t know, having been sexually traumatized?
What’s more, it offers us an opportunity to consider McCain’s record of veterans’ issues in a broader context.
[McCain] received a grade of D from the Iraq and Afghanistan Veterans of America and a 20 percent vote rating from the Disabled Veterans of America; Vietnam Veterans of America noted McCain had “voted against us” in 15 “key votes.”
As for the American Legion and the Veterans of Foreign Wars — with whom McCain claims to have a “perfect voting record” — both groups vigorously supported Sen. Jim Webb’s (D-VA) GI Bill that McCain tirelessly opposed.
And Phillip Carter, Barack Obama’s National Veteran Vote Director (and himself an Army veteran of the war in Iraq), explained why McCain’s suggestion is a mistake:
“While we respect John McCain for his service to our country, we disagree with him strongly on how our nation should care for its veterans. Limiting VA Care to veterans who have ‘injuries that are a direct result of combat’ is a dramatic shift in policy with potentially devastating effects on millions of veterans who currently depend on the VA. The VA does not distinguish between combat-related conditions and conditions caused by non-combat service. There is no difference between an injury caused on a battlefield and one caused on the deck of an aircraft carrier or in training. The VA should not start to ration care with this criterion. Barack Obama wants to honor the sacred trust we have with all our nation’s veterans and not ration care. When troops serve, they are not divided by priority groups. Yet, today the VA is picking and choosing which veterans to serve. Barack Obama is committed to ending the unfair ban on healthcare enrollment of ‘Priority 8′ veterans who often earn only modest incomes. As president, one of Barack Obama’s first acts will be signing an executive order reversing this ban.”
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Heh, coming from the nation that never paid the Revolutionary-era soldiers, and has screwed over the vets at every time, I find this to be ironic. You'd think he'd learn the definition of the word "subtlety", but it seems he believes in rough-boot politics. I'll take Obama's soft glove, but let's be realistic, neither Prez. candidate will do a damn thing about us lording it over the rest of the world.
'Shoot-himself-in-the-foot' McCain speaks again!
When I was in the Army in Germany in '70 and '71, and actually had a guy in my unit shoot himself in the foot. True story. I can attest HOW STUPID IT IS TO DO THAT. McCain is getting stupider by the day.
First you start rationing VA. Then you start mutating the definition of combat injury. Then you claim you have the troops best interest in mind. Then some flag waving patriot says it's the other guy that's against the troops.
Why must respect for McCain's service to the country 40 years ago preceed any comment about what he is planning to do in the future if President? Enough of the ass kissing.
Well hopefully statements like McCain's will ration the number of votes he will receive in November. WTF was he thinking? Was this before or after he stood in the cheese aisle at some grocery store and read aloud the price of milk? When he was in that grocery, no one seemed to recognize him or know who he was.
Yeah, this rationing health care for vets is sure gonna be a winner with the vets and their families. Not!
"concentrate" VA healthcare? McCain, why don't YOU just CONCENTRATE!! Idiot!
Rationing healthcare for veterans so they can get the care they deserve. An oxymoron by a moron who hates lower enlisted service people but says everyone else who doesn't support him hates them.
If it weren't for the VA system of health care, my dad would not have received the health care he needed in order to beat his cancer.
In John McCain's world, since that cancer wasn't a result of his being in combat (my dad was a member of the USAF during Vietnam and was stationed over in that there in the region), he would not be deserving of that health care.
I'm sorry, why doesn't some reporter, with a f-ing spine ask these Republican bastards how not helping someone live is the Christian thing to do? I fail to see the "moral high ground" here.
In the words of Mike Malloy, "God I hate these people!"
Rest assured, Johnny Walnuts will get approval from AMVETS and VFW, populated by "vets" who were desk pounders and mail clerks and who join the organizations to regale everyone with their "combat" experiences. And the MSM will quote the ass-clowns in these groups to "prove" Johhn Walnuts has the true vets at his back.
Not really socialized medicine; they might not have paid in cash, but they paid :)
Perfect example of a guy who forgets where he came from, and who helped him along the way.
What an ass.
“concentrate” veterans’ health care on people with injuries that “are a direct result of combat.”
Translation: No health care for soldiers suffering from mental issues. Chances are he thinks the large number of soldiers that have PTSD, especially the ones who don't show symptoms until after they leave Iraq are faking it because he doesn't understand it.
General_Rennenkampf @ 1:
QFT
grumpyoldvet @ 9:
preach, brother,preach!!!
The VA system is great but due to these two everlasting wars their number of patients is ever increasing. "Leaders" like McCain and the neo cons vote against giving the VA more funding to give care to everybody..
We should expect this kind of thinking coming from a man who was near the bottom of his class and almost flunked out of Annapolis. And this is the man the repugs want to sit in the White House with his finger on the button??? But they would probably just prop him up in the chair and let rove and company run things.
BTW when watching some of the older tapes (2004 etc.) of Mclame and comparing them to tapes done today I notice a significant difference in his speaking and mannerisms. He is definitely in the throes of old age and possibly Altzheimers. This man is a joke. He would never a few years ago have made the mistakes he is continually making today. He is incoherent and seems to not realize where he is or what he is saying.
This is nothing new for the Senator from AZ. Like his fellow AZ senator Jon Kyl and "my" congressman Trent Franks, they loves themselves a nice bloody war but consistantly vote against veterans' benefits and love to cut veterans' benefits. Just more Repimplican hypocrisy.
How much of a MORON do you have to be to vote for this ASS HAT?
I depend on the VA system. I have to take up to 6 prescriptions, and at least two seperate pieces of equipment that are ridiculously high-priced. I have insurance at work, but couldn't afford the co-pay. As it is I have to pay about $1,000.00 a year to the VA. Without all this help, I'd probably be dead as we speak (okay maybe you, otherwise it'd be creepy.)
Although I have to admit since the VA saved us so much money, I dropped an anonymous suggestion in their box, that vets who can afford it be encouraged to donate a few dollars a visit that the VA could send to S-Chip. Affordability is an issue since so many vets at the VA look homeless.
Back in the 60s, my aunt had a stroke and for years afterward would say and do the opposite of what she meant. It was so obvious that they were able to figure it out within days of entering the hospital. She'd cry when she meant to laugh. That kind of thing. My uncle wanted the TV turned on for her, but he was never there when the installer (many, many years ago) came to turn it on. He'd see my aunt and ask if she wanted TV and she'd shake her head and say no. This went on for 3 or 4 days before my uncle cornered the guy and told him to disregard what my aunt said. Just turn on the damn TV.
McCain meant the opposite. It's a question of semantics. Or stroke.
Someone needs to call bullshit on the media canticle and campaign pretense that just because John McCain once wore the uniform of the United States he automatically gives more than a rats ass about veterans.
Sounds like a great idea to me. Let's start by taking away McCain's $57,000/year disability payment. After all, if he's married to someone with a 9-digit net worth, owns eight or nine homes and an artificial lake, and can withstand the rigors of campaigning for a year and a half for the most powerful job on the planet, he obviously doesn't need it.
DHavok @ 8:
Actually, I hate Mike Malloy.
At best he has a half-hour of material, and spends the rest of shift spluttering.
His saying this is covering up and a result of how the VA is stretched way too thin. Ask any vet who deals with the VA healthcare, if you need to see a doctor for something that's not considered an emergency, you will probably be in for an average 3 month wait time, which could result in another reschedule and 3 more months.
It baffles me how a POW like McCain can vote against and take a stand against giving the VA more funding..
DHavok @ 8:
The VA is as badly managed as the BIA. We need to improve the welfare of our veterans, it can be dangerous to do otherwise.
Keep on talking Senator.
Every time he opens his mouth it costs him votes.
So I say keep on yappin.
LOL your country is funny yet very pathetic. On one hand everyone is all gung ho about "supporting our troops" yet on the other hand when they come home from war broken physically or mentally your country doesn't seem to want to have anything to do with them.(find a way not to pay the medial bills)
I can't wait to see how the chickenhawks in your country spin this. And no we have never rationed healthcare to ANYONE in this country, be they civilian or military.
Mike the Canuck @ 27:
We usually tend to support hypothetical troops, actual US support for troops, regardless of ideology or religion, is long on promise, short on delivery. Wanna know how veterans used to "protest?" Google "Shay's Rebellion."
BTW, Mike, how does Canada treat its veterans from Afghanistan?
So, I guess being captured by the Vietnamese and tortured wouldn't actually get you coverage then under McCain, given that torture isn't really 'combat' in traditional terms. Well, even when you can agree on what torture is.
So, Mr. McCain, can we have our money back...?
General_Rennenkampf @ 29:
Very well, actually. (If I can speak for Mike...) The Canadian Army has extensive post-tour testing and check-ups to make sure PTSD cases are caught, and that vets aren't falling through the cracks.
Brendan @ 31:
Well damn...another thing you Canucks do better than us Murakans. Is there anything we do better than ya'll?
General_Rennenkampf @ 29:
Free weed.
General_Rennenkampf @ 32:
Rutting like bonobos?
ysbaddaden @ 33:
Only if you're stationed in BC... It's rum rations out East.
Brendan @ 30:
I wish someone would bring that up at one of his infamous town hall meetings. Ask him if under his rationing plan someone like himself would qualify for VA coverage?
I just thought of an interesting idea. Instead of ending the was in 16 months, end it in 15. That would save about $9 billion to take care of vets who need the help...
General_Rennenkampf @ 32:
Hey - we does too treet our vets reel good here in Amerikkka. We allow them to live almost anywhere on the street that they choose. We allow them to beg on street corners and freeway on-ramps. We don't usually even jail them for using stolen shopping carts for carrying their worldly posessions. I heard some people compare our vets' lot to that of the British vets of the 17th and 18th century. Hell, they didn't even have shopping carts back then...
Brendan @ 37:
I think I meant 'war' there. You can end the 'was' but no one might notice.
"Republican presidential candidate Sen. John McCain appeared Tuesday to suggest rationing of veterans’ health care may be needed so combat veterans can receive the care they deserve."
Why don't we ration his 100% VA benefits. He obviously doesn't need them. Let a real soldier get his benefits.
Mick @ 38:
Yeah, and how well does that end up working out, having large numbers of people who are dissatisfied who know how to use a gun? Bad things have happened in nations when that happens, particularly in modern times, but even before then.
ysbaddaden @ 34:
Naw, we don't have many pansexuals in this nation. ;)
cromulent @ 22:
And while we're at it, he can do something to help fix the Social Security System: give up his $2,000/month benefit. He certainly won't miss the money.
Just a (useless) trivial note: If you're referencing the beloved Chimp-in-Chief in your response, you've described your countrymen with one too many syllables. I prefer the loose transcription- Muhrkin- as a bit more fitting. (Yet I'm just a useless old whore)
Luv to you, General!
I hope MoveOn knows about this comment by McCain. All they have to do is play what he said, and then at the end, ask vets and their families what they think.
Does anyone know what time, our time, Senator Obama will be giving his speech in Germany today and where we can see it on tv?
pissed off patricia @ 5:
Yet Veterans are his strongest supporters - go figure?
General_Rennenkampf @ 42:
kindanasty rice?
Fewer wars, fewer veterans, fewer veteran fewer medical issues for veterans. It's quite simple actually. The rest of the Western world has been practicing it with some success and staying out of America's imperial wars since the end of the Korean conflict with the notable exceptions of Great Britain, Australia, France and, oh yes, Canada.
He even separates himself from his own;
Vietnam Veterans of America noted McCain had “voted against us” in 15 “key votes.”
He votes against his fellow vets? What would that mean - for you - if this jackass became President???
ysbaddaden @ 47:
UselessHO @ 44:
Heh, thanks, but Murkhin, to me, opens up a can of worms about how some people will write it as "Mercia" which was an Anglo-Saxon kingdom, not the US. I prefer Muraka, simply because there's less confusion for me. Besides, with the Prez talking like he does, you'd think that's a comment on Ivy-League education....
but mumblemumble.
sulphurdunn @ 48:
America's imperial wars, yes. Some of the Western world? Not so much. For instance the Falklands War, France continuing to screw over North Africa, but Australia's got too much desert and too few people to bother invading or being invaded. ;-S
To answer my own question after scurrying around the inter-tubes, seems Sen. Obama's speech will be around 1:15p Washington time. Hopefully it will be covered by the media, if Sen. McCain doesn't steal the time to go cheese shopping again. Media priorities ya know.
Brendan @ 31:
Thanks Brendan
Maybe we should set up gas chambers and exterminate these worthless vets who are a drain on our economy.
General_Rennenkampf @ 50:
Point WELL taken-Douché- and so thoughtfully wrought- LuvBuckets
WTF, rationing Veterans health care? How about some rationing on sending troops into unnecessary and immoral occupations. Especially applicable to sovereign countries who are/were NO threat to the USA. Perhaps then there wouldn't be a high demand for combat related medical care. Pretty unbelievable comment coming from someone who has been on the receiving end of Government provided medical care his whole life.
ysbaddaden @ 47:
I've adopted that one for the ages!! Next recipe, please...?
50 General_Rennenkampf
Well, the dollar came from the thaler (or taler or tolar), which was a silver coin used throughout Europe for almost four hundred years. Etymologically, "Thaler" is an abbreviation of "Joachimsthaler", a coin type from the city of Joachimsthal in Bohemia. It was used for 400 years.
It really gets confusing if you have to pay your tailor in talers.
UselessHO @ 55:
Ah, I see. Yes, the President is a douchebag to millions of people (unless you're referring to me with Douche, there, but in the US, we tend to ignore what happens to the people we "enlightened" in the same ol' song.
boosh already has his first post-presidency job.
He's gonna be a spokesman for Busch beer.
Their slogan will be, "Friends Don't Let presidents drive drunk."
ysbaddaden @ 58:
And checks were invented in the Muslim Caliphate, and the Chinese invented paper money. Our concept that money isn't always specie came relatively late to the world, but hoo-boy did we go batshit with it.
ysbaddaden @ 60:
So long as Bush is as obscure after his presidency as Ford was, that won't be a problem for the GOP. OTOH, if he's brought to trial for breaking the Nuremberg and Tokyo War Crimes Trials precedents....
Funny thing, America always reminded me of Armorica, which was in Gaul, and had various regions of:
FRANCE.
pissed off patricia @ 52:
Yours floored me, after which it took me more than a moment to wrest myself, sit back here again to say you're the best, P O P!!
General_Rennenkampf @ 51:
Actually, Australia has been America's most reliable imperial ally, having participated in Vietnam, both gulf wars, and the invasion of Afghanistan, not to mention its own imperial policy toward East Timor.
ysbaddaden @ 63:
Heh, "North America" should really be called something like "Turtle Island", as that's what the Natives call it. Considering they've lived here for 10,000 yrs., minimum while we've struggled to last 300, they win dibs on what it should be called.
McCain is now singing the same tune as the big health care insurance companies. Insurance companies decide whether or not you will get the treatment you need, and now McCain wants to decide whether or not the vets get the treatment they need.
I shudder to think what my family would have done without the help of the VA in the care of my dad. We sure as hell could not have afforded the health care he needed and received as he grew older. Health insurance was never an option for us back then. due to the cost. He was discharged with a non battle related condition.
UselessHO @ 64:
'I'll have the Gouda. And a half pound of Brie for the trollop. Bark. Bark. Arrrooo!'
The thing about cheques were they were drafts on the bank. Now days we almost treat them as cash themselves. Although techinically our cash is no longer made of valuable material.
That's why greenbacks were controversial in the 19th century. It was like they were pieces of gold and silver or even copper like the wealthy wanted in primary value; they were desired by merchants and farmers with secondary value.
sulphurdunn @ 65:
And Papua New Guinea. I'm surprised that Australia was as faithful an ally as that, what would it really gain from it? The Cold War US was long on promises to its "allies" and short on delivery. And considering Australia gave us Ken Ham, I hold that against them.
General_Rennenkampf @ 66:
India was already taken?
ysbaddaden @ 69:
The Caliphates insituted the check to ensure effective financial stability across an empire with languages as diverse as Amazigh, Kurdish, Hebrew, Farsi, and several Iberian languages. It worked wonders, more because of the fact that everybody had to learn and write checks in Arabic, as otherwise the Caliphate would have collapsed right quick. Checks have a long history of being associated with empires.
Isn't this asshole getting a disability check from the VA?
ysbaddaden @ 71:
LOL. We in the US really do need to respect the Native side of things more, though.
Don @ 73:
You bet -- $58,000/yr TAX FREE + $2,000/mo Social Security + Senate salary + wife's $$$.
General_Rennenkampf @ 72:
Just not this one. No checks. No balances...
Brendan @ 68:
The McCain campaign thought they couldn't top the great idea of placing McCain in front of lime jello background for that god-awful speech a few weeks back, but yesterday, when they came up with the bright idea of posing a man who looks like cottage cheese, in the cheese aisle of a grocery store, they knew they could.
McCain might be acknowledging something Obama will eventually have to acknowledge too. I'm assuming of course that McCain is looking at the budget and is understanding the gravity of economic dilemma. There may be a moment here in next few years where this country has little choice but to cut back on things we would normally consider unfathomable to cut.
I know many here didn't care for Ron Paul and I would agree there were some things I didn't like either but with respect to the economy, he is more correct than any of the candidates. If Obama doesn't start to at least acknowledge our economy may not be fixable by one president. He is likely to be a one term president, the republicans will blame the very likely crash to come on him and that will be it for Obama even though he had nothing to with it.
Ron Paul has warned congress again and again, he keeps warning the public and for whatever reason it seems like the warnings go largely unheard or heeded. If anyone wants to know where it going regardless of who the next president is, you should spend as few minutes and read his latest communication then you will understand why our currency is in BIG trouble.
Faith-Based Currency
http://www.house.gov/htbin/blog_inc?BLOG,tx14_paul,blog,999,All,Item%20n...
General_Rennenkampf @ 59:
No, Dear- actually was referring to myself, though so apt to Prez. Hypocrisy seems to be a survival tool or trait more or less innate in our species through evolutionary processes, yet Murakans- as a whole- are arguably more advanced along these lines than most, and have perhaps cornered the market.
Brendan @ 76:
Meh, we've come through worse. Nobody's started the sort of madness that built up to the 1860s yet, and as scared shitless as the Cons were by the 1960s, what happened in the century prior to that would have literally caused strokes in some of them. However, IMHO, Bush would have been worse than Buchanan in 1860, and probably would have done enough stupid things to get the Middle and Border South to secede as well before Lincoln got even into the White House.
unemployed crippled VIET NAM vets in your local parking lot begging for food and money.... to be replaced by crippled IRAQ vets
------------------------ a BILL for the war..... $????????? per household should be sent out RIGHT NOW.....
the message---> YOU WANT A WAR? PREPARE YOUR CHECKBOOK !!!!!
General_Rennenkampf @ 80:
I admire your optimism. And you're probably right.
Bush in the 1800s though...? Like a really bad Bill & Ted's Excellent Adventure sequel... (Shudder.)
UselessHO @ 79:
We're only more apt at it because we've succeeded for so long. If we'd ever faced an opponent our equal, instead of facing superior ones badly distracted, or devastated remnants of peoples that even then could bloody our noses badly, we'dve effectively been either fucked up or destroyed. The difficulty the government sometimes would have against Indian tribes that were badly weakened by disease and by being unable to effectively unite against us due to traditional rivalries, and the difficulties the overwhelmingly superior North faced against the far-weaker South indicate to me that had either of those two groups been in a slightly better position to fight, the US would not exist as it does today. It might not even exist at all, for that matter.
General_Rennenkampf @ 66:
And this could be our National Anthem:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gkVM-jGNn04
General_Rennenkampf @ 25:
I didn't say it was perfect, but it's better than nothing which is what McCain is basically advocating for here when it comes to non-combat related healthcare.
As for Mike Malloy, I just quoted him as it fit the purpose here. I don't listen to him anymore because I kind of got tired of angry ranting... unless it's Lewis Black.
ysbaddaden @ 63:
ysbaddaden @ 63:
Shudder the thought- though I've enjoyed much professional success while visiting those regions!
I have come in here late on this thread but I got something to say about rationing health care for vets. My husband is retired army. He is the love of my life. He is 72. He has licked cancer twice. All that Agent Orange in Vietnam.
What in the hell is McSame thinking? I am supposed to watch my husband die a slow agonizing death and know he can't get medical care because some pissant politician thinks my husband is expendable?
John McCain can go fuck himself and the go to hell!
Brendan @ 82:
When you look at the 1860s, the buildup was much nastier than what we face today, or the overblown turmoil of the 1960s. Much more than in the present US, the rule of law was breaking down, the Indians were forgotten as the issue of slavery turned people against each other. Senators were beaten nearly to death in the Senate, the nation factionalized into parties that were entirely sectional (Lincoln did not win a single vote anywhere in Slaveholding America, and the South itself had two candidates campaigning there) and John Brown's well-intentioned stupidity took an already smoldering situation and poured high-premium gasoline on the fire. Even the 1960s, with all the riots and Vietnam, never approached the level of crisis that spilled over into civil war in the 1860s. As much as people talk of polarization today, we ain't seen nothing yet approaching that level of danger, and there will be warning signs before we get into another 1860s.
I am a 20 year veteran of the U.S. Air Force (retired), and I can tell you that in the base clinic that I go to, active duty service members ALWAYS have priority over retired members, (as it should be). So this story McCain is telling about combat service troops having to wait on line behind retiree's is false! On ALL Air Force base clinic's, active duty military members have priority as a rule.
DHavok @ 85:
True, a little bit is better than nothing. I wish we'd acknowledge as well that war's no game, it doesn't make men or women out of people, it gives them trauma and nightmares and the veterans often need help. Please understand I'm not saying you said that, or anything even remotely like it.
This pisses me off so much I need to go back down to the Dean Martin video to calm down.
Jo @ 87:
Couldn't agree with you more. In fact McCain can do it twice!
Dr Acula @ 75:
Wow. Is this true?
Great article in The Washington Monthly, btw.
but thats point, McCain didnt come from the bottom and rise to top, he was always privledged, and was helped along by his dads and grandfather, both whome were admirals. He always has been treated more special than rest of the military
QuakerDave @ 11:
Time to start rationing veterans’ healthcare?
Here's a thought, stop filling them with hot lead.
ysbaddaden @ 94:
But preventative medicine smacks of socialism...
(Good thread today, BTW. I really should be working...)
ysbaddaden @ 94:
And stop exposing them to shit that leaves them with mental problems for the rest of their lives.
Ration war, not healthcare.
pissed off patricia @ 36:
He flew 22 combat missions for a total of 20 hours before being shot down on the 23rd. Does that qualify? Do the human guinea pigs we tested on various chemicals and radiation qualify? Does the son of a co-worker, whose Jeep flipped in 'Nam because of a design defect, paralyzing him, qualify? Do the cancer-struck Agent Orange grunts qualify? The VA denies coverage to many vets because they claim the injuries weren't service related. I think we need some new management there, starting with the oval office.
The media is building up high expectations for attendance at Obama's speech in Germany today. They are raising the number expected to attend so high and if there are less, well you can imagine what they are going to say.
Hell, McCaine couldn't find but one lady and her two kids to talk to him yesterday at a fu*king grocery store, right here in the US.
CowBoy Bob from Austin @ 2:
I suggest that he needs to insert his foot in his mouth. That is the only way he will shut the hell up.
pissed off patricia @ 96:
War's always done that. As far back as the Old Kingdom, you have hieroglyphics from an Egyptian doctor describing soldier's ills, and the Old Kingdom period of Ancient Egypt is about as far back as written records go.
Southern Yankee @ 99:
Insert foot in mouth, then shoot foot.
Let CBS get their paws on this piece. I'm sure they can cut and paste it to read more positive for McCain. Something like, McCain's attitude toward vet's health care is rationale.
Dr Acula @ 75:
Plus FREE Health Care for LIFE.
General_Rennenkampf @ 100:
Well, you would think we would have learned something by now.
“While we respect John McCain for his service to our country..."
A quibble: "“While we acknowledge John McCain's service to our country..."
pissed off patricia @ 98:
The pictures of McSame and bush 41 in the Golf Cart was just too precious. Mix that with the fact that he is using Henry Kissinger as an adviser (the man who pushed to keep us in Vietnam and worked so hard to get us INTO Iraq) should be enough to convince anyone that this man is just WRONG for America.
(by the way, nice to see you again POP)
As a vet I have never had to use the VA system but it is nice to know that it will be there for me, at least that was the thinking before the repubs screwed it up more than it was already. The deal was when I signed up, we will take care of you if you ever need it, written in stone, was how it was discribed. I was not hurt in combat, in fact my unit had only one injury in combat and that was by stupidity(BTW I was in a cav unit, not a remf unit), so I would feel kind of wierd going to the VA, but like I said, it was nice to know that it was there if I ever needed it.
pissed off patricia @ 103:
You'd think so, but the only thing we learned was how to put more people in bigger battles. The greatest battle of the most advanced states from a global perspective 3,000 years ago, Carchemish, is quite puny when compared to the greatest battles of 2,000 years ago: the Teutoberg Forest and Actium and Tallas, and they in turn are dwarfed by battles like the three Battles of Kharkov and the Battle of Changsha in WWII.
Thankfully, the balance of terror of MAD kept a much larger-scale, much more destructive war from breaking out, arguably had nukes been delayed in invention, WWIII would have been a conventional war between the USA and the USSR by 1960 at the latest. The only lesson people seem to learn from the horrors of wars is how to make them bigger and grander.
mr.ed @ 97:
Yeah I saw that also. A lot of Vets don't support McCain. I tell you as a wife of a lifer and daughter and daughter-in-law of lifers total of over 60 yrs service between the three of them. We now have to pay for health-care that we were promised that would be free. That was a selling point along with education benefits. Now when I have to make appointments I have to visit my doctor I must drive about 1 hr away because we live in a rural area and a lot of the local doctors won't take Tricare. Our government has always made promises and have broken promises to our vets. I am sick and tired of republicans saying they support our troops because they don't.
Soldiers don't have any choice on the assignments they draw.
GOTS always prevails.
(Good Of The Service)
And recruiters lie. Routinely.
I'm a vet, 64-68, USAF; fought my part of the war in an air-conditioned trailer with spectacular views over China Beach and the South China Sea.
Mcstain doesn't say anything that doesn't come directly from his big money gop owners so you can bet your ass this little "plan" is either already being implemented or it's the next atrocity these scum sucking murder for profit assholes will be inflicting on the troops.
I said to someone the other day that the next thing they'll do is start making soldiers responsible for their own care and equipment. If you're a soldier and you're not handing your check over the "company store" for your rations and ammo then you're not a patriot.
If your family wants you to have better body armor tell them to start pouring their savings into your account because "real" soldiers don't expect uncle sam to house, feed, clothe, protect or help them when they're injured. Right mcstain?
I wonder what kind of injury will warrant actual VA care? And how long before they make a single gunshot wound an out patient issue?
A bit off topic but too good to allow to go by. On MSNBC they said when the press asked Angela Merkel what she thought of Sen. Obama, she said, " He is well equipped"
It is just amazing how easily the re-pube-lickins can say things like "support The troops" while simultaneously doing every thing possible to disrespect the troops. Even more amazing is how you would probably have to hold a gun to the head of MSM "journalists" to get them to admit that.
And it looks pretty obvious that there are enough people out there who have replaced valuable brain cells with chicken McNuggets or some other food like substance and will actually slurp down whatever they are spoon fed and will make what should be a landslide election into a contest.
Southern Yankee @ 108:
So true, they remind me of that article I saw a couple of days ago about "Insurance Company Rules" where they change the rules just when you think your covered. Oops , you had sugar in your coffee the day you were injured, that means your not covered. (nee ner nee ner)
pissed off patricia @ 103:
Most of these monkeys still believe in an imaginary sky fairy. Do you really think they're smart enough to figure out that 'war is bad' after only a couple of thousand years?
Nada @ 114:
In a word ........NO!
Belief in invisible people that never answer when you talk to them should be a disqualifying item.
Nada @ 114:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OzlkvI9EZeA
♫..Bangkok Bob..♫ @ 115:
And even more so if you think you hear them answering you
♫..Bangkok Bob..♫ @ 105:
Nice to be seen. Thank you so much!
When you put the golf cart photo next to the photo of Obama and Petraeus in the helicopter in Iraq, taken on the same day, well, it says so much.
General_Rennenkampf @ 107:
Thank you, Thomas Malthus. Yup, our unprecedented capability to produce foods has produced huge surpluses in population, because population advances and increases with the availability of food. It's like there's something in the gene (as in every other animal) that when food is easy reproduction is plentiful.
The biggest problem with proliferating people is that they're voracious. Worse than army ants, really. And wars--as we know them, probably artifacts of post-agricultural human social development--were used to 1) acquire more territory on which to raise crops and 2) to pare down the available competition among the breeding stock.
as the Ol' Interstellar Anthropologist would say...
Nada @ 114:
It's not like secularism produces that much more of a peaceful society, Margaret Thatcher's UK wasn't exactly that of Oliver Cromwell and it still went to war over the Falklands, after all. Then there's the cliche Soviet atheist state, and the not-so-cliche example of the United Mexican States from 1911 onwards.
jeff @ 106:
Let me tell you friend you earned that benefit to go to the VA. However, if you have other options I would take those options. The VA system isn't that great. It is hurry up and wait. My dad 22 yr Vet died in a VA hospital and got terrible care. My father-in-law was in a civilian hospital but we had to wait to get him in the VA hospital. Of course we made complaints because he served 24 yrs both dad and father-in-law were wounded in WWII. When he finally got in a room it was nice but he died that same night. Both dad and father-in-law got military funerals that they earned and deserved. Also family members tag along with the spouses and give up a lot to be with their spouse. So I feel they earned that right also. I always supported my husband even when his job was very stressfull. I understood his job came first and job came 2d. That was important to us.
To the repubs, supporting the troops is sort of like their claim to being pro life.
They support the embryo until it's born and then it's on its own.
They support getting the men and women into war but after that, they are on their own.
I to am a veteran and from what I take from McCain's rationing system is the same thing I took from his refusal to back the new G.I. Bill. He appears to be trying to force military people to serve in the military by reducing or eliminating everything they are to get if they want to leave at some point. In other words, he is saying to them: You had better continue to serve or else.
Weren't the Sumerians writing even before Egypt? I seem to recall they were mostly records of taxes paid in produce and/or offerings to the temple. Nothing like On Coming Forth Into the Light though.
woody, tokin librul @ 119:
Oh, Malthusianism fails because it lacked the ability to foresee things like the Green Revolution that's thankfully stopped the Third World from turning into a mass catastrophe far exceeding that of today's Third World.
Nothing in evolution emerges out of a vacuum, but that does not mean as some scientists today state that human societies of the past were all savage. The precusors of 20th Century warfare were likely mere raids by Homo bands on other Homo bands. It required a lot of change to get to today's enormous standing armies.
pissed off patricia @ 122:
Auf Deutsch gesagt, "Genau!"
Why not pay less to Halliburton and Blackwater to make up the difference?
ysbaddaden @ 124:
Most Eurasian states developed writing at the same time, as did the Valley of Mexico Natives. Most writing used to be records of, as you said, taxes and produce.
Joe O. @ 123:
Seems he isn't helping in the recruitment dept though. He's gonna need lots of fresh folks if he's gonna continue his war ten or more dog years.
pissed off patricia @ 111:
And I'd doubt a similar sentiment toward Bush on her part, as she cringed in abject horror through the shoulder 'massage'.
woody, tokin librul @ 126:
Sorry, I have no idea what that says. Need a translation, please.
General_Rennenkampf @ 120:
Thatcher went to war for mostly the same reasons the dumbyas went. It's about the power. Period. Any gubmint that uses spiritual or religious bullshit in it's rhetoric is obviously paying attention and knows how to successfully manipulate the god monkeys.
If you forced gubmints et.al. to stop using any kind of religion or god talk in their rhetoric they'd have very little left to talk about other than "We want you to kill these people because we want their land, money, natural resources, lives" And for some reason that only works with greedy asshats like reslugs. Thankfully though they aren't capable of conducting their own war given that none of them would ever enlist.
General_Rennenkampf @ 128:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzLry3ABpV0&feature=related
UselessHO @ 130:
She was asked if she would like a massage from Sen. Obama like the one she got from bush. She said she wouldn't resist it.
Gen'ral I disagree.
There's a world of difference between tribal raiding societies and full-on warfare cultures, and the difference is, primarily, excess population.
a tribe cannot afford the damages that out-right war, the commitment of a majority of resources, human and material, to one end, which will inevitably cost it perhaps sufficiently as to cost it its viability. It's not for nothing we know of the Pyrrhic victory. Tribes put out raiding parties, small, in proportion to their population. their purpose is mainly to remind other tribves in the area that they are around and not to be fucked with. The discussion of this very matter in Daniel Quinn's "Ishmael", along with his dissection of the Xian appropriation of the pentateuch, are the best parts of that book: the relations between the Aax, the Bax, and the Cax, or something. check it. It's enlightening...
pissed off patricia @ 131:
in german, exactly!
♫..Bangkok Bob..♫ @ 117:
Yes you'd think hearing voices would be sure sign that someone isn't all there. And yet people still act like they're sane and have something useful to say. So you wonder, who's crazier? The guy/girl who claims to hear a magic sky fairy talking to them or the people who blindly believe it and follow them.
woody, tokin librul @ 136:
Well, I got as far as recognizing that it was German, but that's where I met the brick wall. Thanks for translating it for me. :)
As a 100% disabled vet, and unable to work due to my injuries-which were sustained in accidents in Korea and in the US-made it thru 1 year in Vietnam without any injury-and as someone who depends on the VA, not only for myself but also for my wife, for all our healthcare, and having spent 30 days in my local VA hospital back in April-and having seen for myself the broken equipment and the poor treatment afforded vets(in this hospital we were treated like we were in a county hospital, the one where everyone who does not have insurance goes) I greatly resented the treatment given-I was on a surgical ward(no private or semi private rooms here) for 28 days, and have been on a maintenance dose of 12 mg of morphine a day since I broke my back in Korea in 1977. It is in all my medical records, yet the "doctor" assigned to my case(I only saw him once, I bitched for hours and got a better Dr.) who grilled me for almost 1 hour about my pain meds(which if he had bothered to look in my med rec showed a history going back over 30 years) and treated me like I was a street addict who just wanted to get a fix. I had surgery, gall bladder, which should have taken less than 1 hour, but took 6 hours for me, 11 days after entering the hospital, the next 15 days were spent in hospital recovering from that surgery. VA hospitals are in dire need of upgrading. In fact it was Clinton who improved the VA health care system enough in the 90's that allowed me to return to the VA system. At that time I lived over 250 miles from the Det VA hosp. the infamous Allen Park. There is a new VA hosp. in Det called John R which is very very good. Unfortunately I moved to Texas in 2003, and the local VA hospital-Audie Murphy-needs a lot of work, it is a very old and very crowded hospital with patients coming from over 500 miles away. The Rio Grande Valley-from which almost 50% of the current patients come has been wanting a VA hospital for over 30 years-since the area is about 80% hispanic, maybe this year they will get an "earmark" to build one. They currently run a 60 passenger bus daily from Brownsville to San Antonio-450 miles one way-5 days a week.
General_Rennenkampf @ 128:
Somewhere, in speculative fiction, iirc, I saw expressed the idea that 'writing' must first have been by women, domestically, and then spread (virally?) to the larger cultures. Women engaged in domestic chores such as storing and cooking various foods would have wanted a way to distinguish among the (obviously opaque) earthenware jars they'd fashioned for the purpose. It made/makes a lot of sense to me...
Southern Yankee @ 121:
I live in major urban area, so not much travel involved, and the VA hospital here is pretty good according to the other vets who have used it. Something most dont know is that there are many other benes that we get that are not related to the care system(tution and low intrest loans to mention a few). What gets me angry is that these wre promised to us, not maybes, promised. I am sorry to hear about you family and I think that is a true shame on our country that the people who have put their lives on the line , if we agreed or not with the policy, are short-changed and lied to by the very people that put us in that postion in the first place.
pissed off patricia @ 138:
Cultural Relativism Aside:
When Europeans first encountered the head-hunting cultures, they were shocked. They saw the captured heads as trophies from a single battle. They didn't appreciate that the heads were, though trophies indeed, trophies of conflicts ranging far back into the tribal cultural history, dozens, hundreds, of years. The WEuros projected onto the head-hunters their own grisly history, and demonized the indigenes, making it easier to slaughter them as 'inhumans.'
Correct me if wrong- but off the top, methinks “Genau!” translates “Enough!”
UselessHO @ 142:
"Enough" is "genug"
McCain the Confused @ 54:
Jesus! Don't give them any ideas!!
The question was asked, what about reporters going after, etc...
What if Sen. McCain was not in his seventies but in his fifties, would he get away with this crap? Doubt it. MSM just keeps giving him a pass on most issues and the elder senator just whines that the MSM hates him when they don't.
UselessHO @ 144:
see 145 above
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