Obama may back offshore drilling!
Looks like the Shock Doctrine is working once again:
Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama said Friday he would be willing to support limited additional offshore oil drilling if that's what it takes to enact a comprehensive policy to foster fuel-efficient autos and develop alternate energy sources .Shifting from his previous opposition to expanded offshore drilling, the Illinois senator told a Florida newspaper he could get behind a compromise with Republicans and oil companies to prevent gridlock over energy.
Republican rival John McCain, who earlier dropped his opposition to offshore drilling, has been criticizing Obama on the stump and in broadcast ads for clinging to his opposition as gasoline prices topped $4 a gallon. Polls indicate these attacks have helped McCain gain ground on Obama.
"My interest is in making sure we've got the kind of comprehensive energy policy that can bring down gas prices," Obama said in an interview with The Palm Beach Post...read on
Obviously, Obama changed his position because of public opposition to the ban and because he thinks he could use it get Republicans to sign on to other legislation as he says. It's an election year. But I would suspect they will extract another 100 pounds of environmental flesh before they do. That's how they operate. Maybe we could agree to store nuclear waste at Fisherman's Wharf in exchange for some investment in wind power. Or perhaps we could agree to drill in Yellowstone in exchange for subsidies to the automakers to put solar panels on their office buildings. If there's one thing you can count on it's that Republicans negotiate in good faith.
And our pal Naomi Klein:
Klein: This is just a classic example of what I mean by ‘disaster capitalism,’ which is using a real disaster, a real crisis, or a shock-like the oil shock-to push through policies that you can’t get through in normal circumstances. So here you have a shock, you have a real oil crisis. People are in pain, they want solutions. And you got the President, the “Extortionist-in-Chief” whose job is actually to solve the problems, but instead he holds the country hostage. And he says, “Listen, unless you give me ANWR, you’ll never drive again.”
Gomez: Wait a minute, so this is, just so I’ve set it up correctly, this is so you’re saying that the President’s taking advantage of this crisis…
Klein: Exactly…
Gomez: …to get into ANWR.
Klein: …to push the wish list of the oil and gas industries. These are not real solutions. People need real solutions. They’re presenting this as if it’s a short-term solution and you guys know full well that it’s a long…if it’s any…going to have any kind of impact on gas prices, it’s in the long run. But people are so desperate for solutions that they’re willing to buy anything.
First FISA, then even thinking about Tim Kaine, now off shore drilling.
Obama is a bitch, sorry.
We are so fucked.
I think this underscores how much more work Obama needs to do in order to overcome the nonsense of this brain dead idea. Offshore drilling is bogus and he knows it.
What they should do is, rather than just lose his spine, demand McCain explain HOW MUCH gas prices will drop and WHEN if they do this. The answer is clearly: Very little and not for a long time. (After the far-too-horrible to contemplate McSame presidency.)
He has to be more aggressive against this kind of nonsense and the suck-up, paid useless crap of a mainstream media. Sharp, succinct, clear and damning of Mr. McSame!
Can't EVER trust a RESLUG.
Pander much Obama?
My interest in him is sinking lower and lower with each flip-flop.
I can't even find the words to comment on this.
I agree with him with being lax on FISA......but he should stick to his guns on offshore drilling being that these companies have record profits and aren't even attempting to drill in a majority of the land that's already been approved for them. Saying you can drill offshore in return for more fuel cell exploration doesn't make sense.
The idea of getting something done, when the rightwangers are showing they won't let anything get by them and will then lie about it being Dems' fault - that is appealing to anyone trying to actually promote the public interest. I think condemning any attempt to accomplish something ignores that that is what legislation is all about. In Sen. Yarborough's office, we knew a lot of Senators voted to give federal protection to endangered species because they thought nothing would be done about it.
[FIFY-Sitemonitor]
...protection to endangered species because they thought nothing would be done about it.
and sorry, somehow the #7 comment posted early
[FIFY-Sitemonitor]
The Fox-bunny with the Peggy Bundy hairdo doens't contain her Republican drawl very well.
What`s next for Obama? Naming Dick Cheney as his running mate?
The Environment, The Fourth Amendment...
Is there anything of ours he won't trade to get this dream job?
He doesn't even need to cave; but he is.
Naomi has it right.
Here's a nice little summary of the situtaion by my buds over at The Agonist
As it shows, in 20 years, the ANWR reserves will not relieve the oil crunch, nor will they keep oil prices down. The purpose of ANWR is to make profits for Bush crony corporations, includeing the new Arab company called Halliburton.
Remember, any contracts given to Halliburton are now outsourcing to an Arab nation, the UAE. Remember that, Americans. This is so that Halliburton can use your American tax dollars, but not pay any American taxes in return.
Every American should fully understand that about Dick Cheney's favorite Arabian company - Halliburton.
Putz.
He's no longer running as a liberal, or a different kind of politician
Just one who'd say anything to get the office
You know
The old kind of politician.
Offshore drilling is more useful for natural gas than oil.
production is prob quicker to achieve too.
High oil prices and consumer gas pump prices are a smoke screen and lever to get at the natural gas.
Last night on Now with David Bostocchio (sp?), they covered the Ted Stevens case. There was an oil company Vego going around bribing Alaskan representatives and giving free trips to people like Trent Lott and PHIL GRAMM. You know the latter has that connection to mccain.
According to Now, the oil companies in general have a heavy sway in a state that hasn't voted in a Democrat in 30 years. So that raises the question:
Does the proposed off-shore drilling have nothing to do with National Economy/Defense, and everything about enriching certain corporations who are major campaign doners in a certain state and perhaps certain corporations? (Vego is gone, but I couldn't tell from the story if it merely merged with another corporation and change it's name.)
Right after the oil companies released their calendar quarter two profits, Obama suddenly changes his stance on off shore drilling?
Obama is a member of the Council on Foreign Relations. Is it any wonder he voted for FISA? He doesn't give a crap about us or our rights. He is told to tout the CFR's hidden agenda.
It just so happens that Shell Oil, ExxonMobil, BP, Chevron, Halliburton and Hess are all corporate members of the CFR.
And in November, if we make it to the election, we will get to choose from CFR candidate A or CFR candidate B. McGramps or Omomma, there is no real difference. There is no choice. There is only the illusion of choice.
Shock Doctrine:
All we need is the right major crisis and the nations WILL accept the New World Order."
-David Rockefeller
"We shall have World Government whether or not you like it, by conquest or consent."
-James Warburg (February 17, 1950)
"The drive of the Rockefellers and their allies is to create a one-world government combining Super Capitalism and Communism under the same tent, all under their control. Do I mean conspiracy? Yes, I do. I am convinced there is such a plot, international in scope, generations old in planning, and incredibly evil in intent."
-Congressman Larry P. McDonald
Well kids we ARE truly fucked if we think change in this country is going to come from the top down.
Our only chance is that Obama will be receptive to the People's issues when he takes office. We know what McSame's about, chances are Obama won't be worse but is he going to save us? No way boys and girls, we are the only ones who can save us. Buy less, get out of debt, voluntarily lower your "standard of living", support local networks of merchants and services......if all of us do a little and set a positive example it WILL add up to a lot. Make sure your own house is in order and support those who you have influence with to help them do the same. It is the only way and the only hope for real and meaningful change.
(gracefully stepping off my soap box and going about my business, peace and respect to all of you)
The thing is, Obama could turn this into a political win for himself, and a political loss for the Republicans while heading off the whole issue if he wants to.
He could just say he'd allow oil producers to trade in current unused leases for these offshore sites they claim to need so badly. If they don't start drilling within a year, they lose the lease.
Oil producers don't want to drill on these sites-- they just want to control the sites.
Sad very sad. I really don't think I'm going to bother showing up in November. Thanks Obama! Thanks for effing us in the a without a reach around.
Let's look at the whole quote:
"My interest is in making sure we've got the kind of comprehensive energy policy that can bring down gas prices," Obama said in an interview with The Palm Beach Post.
"If, in order to get that passed, we have to compromise in terms of a careful, well thought-out drilling strategy that was carefully circumscribed to avoid significant environmental damage — I don't want to be so rigid that we can't get something done."
You have to compromise in politics to get something done, that's how it works. He's showing that not stubborn and is willing to make concessions in order to bring good to the whole. You can never have 100% of what you want, and it's nice to see there is a politician that understands that.
jeez, this site is starting to look like a cable news outlet. "let's get folks spun about someone's perception of Obama's comments without bothering to actually report what he said."
From the NYT:
“If we come up with a genuine bipartisan compromise, where I have to accept some things that I don’t like in order to get energy independence, that’s something I will have to consider,” Mr. Obama said
"Still, he cautioned that he is not yet “ready to sign off on any approach.”
Oooh, total capitulation! He's a repug-lite now!
You ever think that he's just telling the truth? You know, if there is a veto-proof majority in the Senate, he won't *have to* accept something he doesn't like.
But I guess then we can't all get outraged at how we're being sold out...
Grow up.
I'm not really worried about this one. Obama is covering his tracks for the simple-minded, who think that drilling is "the solution." He said that he would consider drilling "if that's what it takes."
Of course, that's NOT "what it takes."
Plenty of wiggle room here.
HDon @ 9:
bunnies are cute tho, nice on the eyes :)
seriously 'Shock Doctrine' and Naomi Campbell gets a good slot on Faux, and the message gets out.
Faux bloke says 'we need long term energy solutions' jeez he sounds like a subversive greenie.
Ryoko @ 4:
Agreed
Nothing like a long walk on the beach, wading through the cool surf with sand and tarballs squishing between your toes ..........our gift to you ....kids
CatAtomic @ 18:
and stop China, India and foreigners from drilling there and exporting US reserves overseas, could be.
or then again theres a big world market, US companies would like to sell overseas themselves.
Today's republican whining strategy is bad for democrats. All people see is Democrats not doing anything, not even debating. If you put the onus on Republicans to negotiate. Balance their desire for drilling against their dislike for alternative fuels, they are the ones who will look bad. Otherwise all you see is Obama not doing anything but McCain doing something.
Okay, I would be fine with this if it were a political manuever by the Dems, who are unfairly getting hammered with this "Drill Here Drill Now" (Minnesota airport bathroom optional), IF they added the poison pill of "fine, you can drill offshore, but EVERY DROP that comes out the ground MUST go right back into the U.S. market."
Then watch the repug try to repeat their bullshit "Drill Here, Drill Now" mantra when the Dems add "Oh, and Sell Over There?" Let the repugs languish in esoterics about free markets trying to defend drilling from our shores and endangering our environment when the product will just be sent elsewhere.
Now, maybe they'd bite, but add to this that before a single offshore site is tapped, ALL current wells on currently available sites must be fully exhausted.
I would also be a fan if they added a Nationalization clause that if there is one spill, just one, the company's assets are seized. You know, like those seized if you are even in proximity to a drug bust. Make it a tough on crime thing.
What Bush wants, Bush gets.
Price of oil is due to monetary policy.
If the Fed raises rates - oil prices will fall.
U.S. has the second lowest interest rates in the world behind Japan.
When you have the worlds reserve currency - USD - you control oil prices by default.
You guys notice when U.S. oil companies were not winning oil drilling contracts in Iraq. Bush started drill, drill, drill? Up until then he did not even know gas was over $4.00 per gallon.
Ah, ferrofluid and CatAtomic are of the same mindset... now why not our "powerful" elected Dems?
I’m not really worried about this one. Obama is covering his tracks for the simple-minded, who think that drilling is “the solution.” He said that he would consider drilling “if that’s what it takes.”
Of course, that’s NOT “what it takes.”
Plenty of wiggle room here.
If that's not what it takes then why not be an adult about it and say what it will take.
These pols are like children who don't understand anything.
Increase fuel standards now...end speculation on gas... use EXISTING hydrogen technology...it's not rocket science folks, just auto science.
Oh god- that male interview was a stupid douche, wasn't he? He progressed something like this:
Klein: We need more wind, solar, hydro power.
Douche: That's a long term solution! What to you propose for the short term!?
Klein: Open up the oil reserves.
Douche: That's short term! We need a long term solution!
*face palm*
Ben Dover @ 25:
I remember the legacy of the 'Torrey Canyon' tanker on the beaches in the UK,
every so often after storms large lumps of football sized semi solid tar would wash up on the beaches.
wonderful toys for kids with matches to play with btw, that and nylon rope from washed up fishing nets and lobster pots.
This is the problem with Obama - he is a politician first, with all the well-earned negative connotations that brings.
Too many of us have had the Audacity to Hope that maybe, just maybe, Obama was a candidate that could actually LEAD. His recent trip to Iraq and Germany demonstrated that he was very much the president in waiting, with both the Bush administration and McSlime being dragged along in his wake.
This latest pandering over-reaction to bogus polling numbers is a compromise of principles that seriously damages Obama's credibility. If there is a time to stand on principle, this is it. What's the next issue to be compromised - health care? Roe vs. Wade?
From Obama's website:
This is an excellent point, one that can be expounded upon to paint the oil and gas industry as the blatant profiteers that they are. Why do the oil companies need to open up protected areas to drill when they won't drill for oil in the areas they already have? Are they afraid the price will go down if they bring more oil to market?
Remember the oil spike after Katrina, when refineries were shut down? US stockpiles were overflowing - supertankers bringing imported oil to the US were running at 1/2 speed because there was no place to store the oil they were delivering. The whole system is a well orchestrated plot to soak consumers for every single penny they possibly can, whether at the pump or through massive corporate tax breaks that are underwritten by taxpayers.
Come on, Obama. Have some balls. Political "compromise" is what got us where we are today. Use that bully pulpit to call out the criminals, to motivate citizens to breathe down the necks of their locals representatives. It's time to put the Government of the Corporations, by the Corporations, for the Corporations six feet under.
With every compromise the environment loses.
Two questions:
1) What is wrong with offshore drilling IF it can be done in a safe manner? We still need oil, and I'd prefer getting it from somewhere besides the Middle East - as long as it can be done without harming the environment.
2) Why does Obama think he needs to negotiate with republicans? Last time I checked, the dems held control over Congress.
CatAtomic @ 33:
at least he said the horror word 'long term' something that republican mindset peoples dont normally say or think.
Politics is the art of compromise. But if Obama thinks the repugs will negotiate in good faith, he's got another thing coming. He thinks if he gives them some offshore drilling, which will do NOTHING to lower the price of gas, they'll give on alternative energy funding. It aint going to happen. Bipartisianship is another word for date rape to the republicans. Bipartisianship means give them everything they want, and they give nothing back. That's what republicans think bipartisianship means. What angers me most is that Obama should be telling the truth on offshore drilling, that it won't lower gas prices. Bush's own Dept of Energy has documented that. It will take minimum ten years to bring that oil in and at most will lower gas a couple of cents a gallon. It won't lower gas prices. How hard is it to get that message out?
He said he "may consider it."
If making a short-term sacrifice gains long term change and development of alternative fuels, and the END to off-shore drilling, I'm willing to consider it too.
Unless any of us actually COMPLETELY stops using oil, natural gas, and electricity, we have no argument. It's our fault! We took our selfish demand and drove a spike into our precious Earth. Think we're not to blame? Think again.
The Republicans prod and Obama flips.
This guy has no conviction, and he's quickly losing my vote.
The one had a bad week.
The dems held out for big oil checks and they will cave like FISA.
Both parties are corrupt and the government is still broken.
They should shut it down.
Yet another reason why I'm voting for Neil Patrick Harris.
21 Dan
When he seems to lack/define or present core values any equivocation is note-worthy.
Additionally using weasly caveats to create wiggle-room is "old-school" politics like he was denouncing.
Yeah, guess I'll just stay home this November...
43 David Ehrenstein Says: Yet another reason why I’m voting for Neil Patrick Harris.
Doogie Houser?
I'm voting for Brian Moore the Socialist, even if I have to write him in.
CatAtomic @ 33:
Since 1995 in China, but always here in the US theres the teaser story in the MSM, yet it always fades away.
Why cant Walmart sell these damn thing, they are China inc, would make very good sense, and please a lot of people, and get a lot of cars off the road in summer time or year round climate allowing.
Obama lost my donations due to FISA. I agree, there's a lot of wiggle room in his statement, but if he votes in favor of offshore drilling he's lost my vote.
I offered some thoughts on this matter on my blog, Walled-In Pond, quite early this morning...
In addition I have speculated on how the "cookie crumbles" at my other blog, The Well-armed Lamb.
45 Mick Piobr Says: Yeah, guess I’ll just stay home this November…
I wonder if that's what turkeys say.
Could be woist. The Scots have St. Andrews day around November 21 (I think.) They serve haggis, which is chopped-up sheep heart, lungs and livers, mixed with oatmeal and spices, and boiled in a bag made from the sheep's stomach.
No wonder the Scots have a reputation for hard drinking.
So the center right candidate moves to the "center" by moving even further right than he already has. So Obama accepts the rightwing framing of the argument again, wow such change [sarcasm]!
After all the hoopla about Obama after his 04 convention speech (I remember even a Newsweek article about it), I decided to maybe look into him. Heard a few of his speeches, saw him on CSPAN and he never did anything for me. Then the media started making the Dem primary race about him and Hillary and I figured "fine, I'll give him a chance to impress me as it looks he might be the one selected by the media plus I guess if the Dems want to win, they might as well pick the more charismatic corporatist candidate". He piqued my interest when he mentioned not letting the bushies off the hook, filibustering FISA, he also made some good arguments against the offshore drilling even though I still had my concerns about his coal and ethanol bs.
Well he's flipped on everything that made him interesting to me. So why should I vote for this guy instead of voting for Cynthia? Why shouldn't Obama voters vote for Cynthia instead if they really want to keep McCain out? The only reason there are only two "viable" choices is because the sheeple have been brainwashed into thinking those are our only choices. Yeah, I would like to see voting reform but even then it doesn't mean we can't dump one or both of the main parties. The Republicks are too authoritarian to dump theirs, so that leaves the Dems and too many are satisfied with the status quo. Stupid country.
@41 Lawrence Lawson
So who you gonna vote for? McCain? Or not vote and help lose the White House to the repugs? Great! Now you get off-shore drilling for certain. Way to go.
Knee-jerk reactions anyone? Seems to me the Republicans (Rove) long ago figured out how to turn our strengths into weakness. Everyone seems quick to trash Obama, yet if one really bothers to read his complete comments and not the headlines, one will find he is far and away the best candidate for progressives, liberals, and pre-Bush conservatives. Cynicism and eating our young will get us John McCain for President.
Even Obama can change his mind once in a while!
Yes we can
Drill in anwar and prop up big oil
Yes we can
Give telecoms their immunity
Yes we can, yes we can
McStain in my pants @ 52:
So you're trying to confirm that there is NO choice?
53 artMonster Says: Knee-jerk reactions anyone?
-----------------
That was the same comments before FISA and all you "experts" saying Obama would never vote for it.
When everything gets boiled down to oversimplified dichotomies then ANY compromise appears to be a flip-flop ... but, listen to what Obama says:
He's not dumb ... it's not like he's changed his mind all the sudden and thinks drilling is the end-all-be-all answer to our energy problems ... he's not buying into that fairy tale. If the GOP wants to make this some huge issue for this election, why not say "okay, let's drill ... now what? ... oh yeah, that doesn't do anything, what else you got? oh yeah, nothing ... now let's get back to work actually solving the problem."
What Obama should do is bring the hard numbers to the forefront, bring them to the debates ... challenge McCain et al. to explain exactly how this will all work. It won't work, we know that, Obama knows that ... if this 'compromise' helps expose that then it's worth it. I think this helps diffuse all this nonsense.
Tim, the Enchanter @ 37:
Okay, I'll play. Two answers (though there are more):
1) Offfshore drilling would only help the US IF we had nationalized oil. We don't. So Big Oil gets to drill and the oil goes on the world market and doesn't affect our price one iota. As McCain said, "It would be psychological". Unless you're Exxon. Then it would beat your $11 billion second quarter.
3) The "Dems" control the House and Senate in name only. Approximately 20 (give or take) of the Senate members with D behind their names are Blue Dog democrats, really just Republican-lite. And they vote with Repubs because their constituents are "conservative". (Which in other words mean, "I've got mine, screw you")
The most important thing this fall (besides electing Obama) is getting that 60 votes in the Senate. People who want a McCain presidency with a Dem Congress need to be educated about what that would look like. Kinda like Bush right now either vetoing or threatening a veto on every bill. These are not the Clinton years. 43 screwed that up real good.
ysbaddaden @ 50:
YSB ... may your house be safe from Tigers.
That dish would have to be washed down with 12 oz of Tequila.
I guess you can say we're lambs being led to the slaughter
Then the boiling pot.
Knee jerk much?
Tim, the Enchanter @ 37:
One: It cannot be done in an environmentally safe manner, fir the first thing...
for the next, it cannot be done in an ecologically safe manner...
for another thing, it cannot be done in any kind of safe manner.
2)Because he's not a fighter, he's a fucking meliorator. He's already got in mind what he'll give up when he goes to the table, and never knows what he'll take in return,
And because the Pukes NEVER negotiate in good faith...If you want 'em to keep a deal, you'd better have their trophy-wives held hostqage somewhere...
artMonster @ 53:
Ugh, what? How is Obama even remotely progressive? What is funny is that is such a fear based decision, sure Obama may sell us out on some things, but hey at least he isn't McCain.
Disappointing to say the least.
ysbaddaden @ 61:
Sounds about right. Just cows hanging out chewing cud in the field without a care in the world, and suddenly....WHAM!
What happened? Didn't see it coming.
you can thank two NEOCONs for this rove and gingrich.
obama doesn't want to make this move but the public
is vulnerable and believe this off shore drilling propaganda.....i say obama challenge mccain with answers when and how it will change fuel prices.
To all the Debbie Downers out there... CHANGE does not arrive on your doorstep in a handbasket. Dang if this isn't a country filled with bottle-fed helpless little cry babies.... Bet most of you don't even know how to sew a button on a shirt. Maybe that's a good place to start?
McStain in my pants @ 52:
If you're gonna get fucked either way, who cares who does it... and make no mistake, you/we're gonna get fucked either way...
It's called compromise, it's what this country is based on and how things actually get done. Obama has always said he wanted to bring this country together, he's always said he doesn't want to hark on the red/blue divide and instead wants to bring us together. You don't do that by not listening to your opponents, and you don't do that by constantly attacking your enemies like the Republicans did.
I do not agree with Offshore Drilling at all, but like Obama, I understand that if you want to get your ideas accepted... sometimes you have to accept some of the ideas presented by the other side.
Bipartisanship only comes by compromise and will never please conservatives and liberals.
Ehh- it's the final straw. FISA was a big one and the Democrats are doing exactly nothing about anything -ever.
I supported Kucinich, as usual, but Kucinich can't get anywhere because he WON'T compromise or even pretend to do so.
It appears that Mr Obama is just another DLC tool. I've voted in every election since '72, and have been routinely disappointed.
Maybe it would be better if McKeating DID win the election. He could finish the ruination the country that was begun by Reagan years ago. Then maybe we can pick up the pieces and start an actual government.
McCain got 800 k for flipping an Obama will get a mil.
Its business as usual but after the one was heckled, he came out against apologizing for slavery and reparations.
The one is going downhill quickly.
McCain rallied and energized his base.
Barry is Kerry.
60 ☻..Bangkok Bob..☻♫♪ Sawatdee Says:
Intesting you'd mention tigers. Frank Merrill the last Tarzan of the silent movies had a serial called Tarzan the Tiger, which I own a copy of. Problem is, there's tno tigers in Africa.
Africa has were-panthers, and India were-tigers. The Africans had a group that was called the Leopard Men who attacked people dressed in the garb of leopards. There were always legends of witches turning themselves into cats to attack people.
Yet when the movie The Cat People was released from the Val Lewton unit of RKO in 1942, with that major hottie Simone Simon, uninformed critics of the day, and horror movie anthologists of ours, have said there was no mythic basis for cat people.
I think we're going to have to go nuke. France has 80% of their electricity from nukes. In order to counter global warming, we have to start getting out of the combustion business. We're going to need an electric car with a decent range on a charge, like 150 miles or so. We need to max out wind and solar options, and conservation, and then look at nuclear. With Iraq, we should have paid attention to what the French were saying, in regards to energy, we need to look at what the French are doing. Our reactors are old; I think France has next-generation facilities.
Of course, any nuke could be the target of a terrorist attack. Best thing here to combat terrorism is to stop meddling in the internal affairs of other countries. Whoops - we need their oil. Hm'mm, maybe we need to stop needing their oil.
Obama is a clever lawyer, but nevertheless, is the lesser of two evils. U.S. Supreme court considerations is enough to decide what to do in November, which is vote Obama, and vote Democrat in the congressional races so that the government doesn't gridlock.
Jonathan....What? You have no idea what's going on here.
There's left wing and there's right wing. So what type of bird is this that needs and is beating these two wings?
Who runs this country?
70 Jonathan Says:
I do not agree with Offshore Drilling at all, but like Obama, I understand that if you want to get your ideas accepted… sometimes you have to accept some of the ideas presented by the other side.
Bipartisanship only comes by compromise and will never please conservatives and liberals
----------
Also called - caving.
There's only one way to bring down gas prices in the short term.
I've mentioned it before, here and elseqwhere, and somebody mentioned it above, too: Nationalize the fuckers. Get rid of the salary-men, the go-betweens, the execs, the parasites. Works like a charm in Norway, for instance, where "profits" from energy use support national health care...Geee, wonder if that'd work here?
@56 Charles
So you’re trying to confirm that there is NO choice?
--------
No. I'm saying there is nothing but a choice. Um, election, ballot, choice. Being so cynical to not vote is also a choice. A choice for none, but also a choice to increase votes one way or the other. Do the math?
The real-and dirty-fact is the the only way the US govt can function is thru compromise. We tried the bush method of govt for 8 years, and found that 49% of the american people can not be ignored. So. Now 10 senators, 5 from each party, have decided that yes, we can all get a little of what we want, but no one side can have everything that it wants. Repigs tried to do it the hard way, by just governing from their base, for 8 long years. It got them nothing. The only way to run the US is from the center, where both sides give up something in order to get something that all can vote on. I don't think that the speaker has quite gotten this figured out yet, and I don't believe that she will. A new, and better speaker is needed. Where can we Tip O'Neil type of speaker now? Who can really do the job without pissing off everybody who is not of your same mindset? Pelosi can't seem do get the job done. Any other choice out there?
ysb@50 Haggis tastes like a meatloaf, if done correctly. It's pretty good.
60 ☻..Bangkok Bob..☻♫♪ Sawatdee Says:
YSB … may your house be safe from Tigers.
____________________________________________________________
Why, do you have any cougars to introduce to me?
Can we please find a charismatic politician who isn't trying to ruin America?
An age-old problem requires a new way of thinking in order to find a solution. What do I mean? Let's stop pretending that politicians are our leaders and lets start looking for politicians who are as beaurocratic as they come. We need beaurocrats who will follow the letter of the law, no questions asked. We need politician who will create and execute laws based on data, not personal interest. Basically, we need a big ass computer.
I'm sorry, but considering all the bullshit coming out of our capital's taint, my idea is still more plausible.
McStain in my pants @ 78:
Do the math? As in a question, do the math?
What math are you talking about? The math that the morons who claim to lead us don't represent us at all?
Do you think Obama represents your interests as a human or as a citizen of this country (actually it's a corporation)?
Jonathan, you're a child. Wanna buy a bridge? How about a couple of Real Tall Towers?
you may only compromise, negotiate, with people who bargain in good faith.
the pukes/cons/fascists have demonstrated time and again that they do NOT negotiate in good faith. they cheat and renege and lie and pull all manner of stunts, and the DipShitDims just nod and go along every time.
74 NoBuddy Says: I think we’re going to have to go nuke. France has 80% of their electricity from nukes.
------------------
French nuclear leak prompts urgent security review Telegraph.co.uk
New contamination incident at French nuclear site Reuters UK
100 employees at French nuclear site contaminated BusinessWeek
3 different reactors within the past 3 weeks.
Just think about it. If the Dems have enough of a majority, They won't have to compromise with the repugnants at all if they don't want to.
Tim, the Enchanter @ 37:
What makes you think we will get the oil? e.g., you have any idea where north Slope oil goes? Hint: not to the lower 48. Oil is a fungible commodity that gets shipped wherever its multinational corporate owners designate. See Public Law 104-58, title II: "An Act: To authorize and direct the Secretary of Energy to sell the Alaska Power Administration, and to authorize the export of Alaska North Slope crude oil..."
@69 woody
If you’re gonna get fucked either way, who cares who does it… and make no mistake, you/we’re gonna get fucked either way…
------
How old are you? Seriously. I'm interested to know if this is the consensus of a certain generation. I'm from a generation that brought forth change by taking a stand for our ideals and were able to influence change by speaking out. Not by sitting home on election day.
Fucked either way? You may be right, but would you rather be fucked by a fence post or a toothpick? Your choice.
Ron @ 86:
You're daft.
They're gonna hafta get rid of about half-a-dozen "BlueDawgs" for that to happen: Both Nelsons, Lincoln, Landrieu, Loserman (of course), Carper, and Rockefeller, at least, in addition to picking up Puke seats.
70 Jonathan
One of my great-great-great-great uncles (maybe another great) is Henry Clay the Great compromiser (another is William Seward.) About the only thing Clay is known for in compromising is creating the Mason-Dixon line, and that only temporarily stalled the Civil War (where they tip their hats to each other before blasting each other to smithereens.)
It's an insult for someone to say you've compromised your principles. Additionally, when you bargain, you ask for more than you actually want and work your way down to what you actually do, but leave the other side feeling like they've gotten something in the transaction.
nittany @ 55:
reminds me of
"
McStain in my pants @ 88:
What change? You're full of it. Hahahahaha! Change for the worse maybe.
How much further must Obama's poll numbers drop before he performs the ultimate flip-flop the Republican party and mainstream media have been dreading and working against for the last 18 months; Hillary Clinton somewhere on the Democratic Party presidential ticket vs their beloved John McCain?
For whatever it is worth, the only time I saw Obama mention this yesterday, he specifically said "on existing leases".
You all do realize that the oil companies already have millions of acres in existing leases they can drill on already?
I get a warm fuzzy feeling knowing there are strong vocal women like Rachel Maddow and Naomi Klein out there pushing the progressive cause and putting to rest the fear mongeoring that the conservatives like to spew. Only the real stupid ones will be incline to perform the see no monkey, hear no monkey, say no monkey action like the two interviewing Naomi.
McStain in my pants @ 68:
buttons are for effeminate wussy nobs, real men use twigs to hold their peasant garb together
BB@ 60 You wash down haggis with an Old Engine Oil or with Dalwhinnie. A forty year old Lochan would serve...
"The Technetronic era involves the gradual appearance of a more controlled society. Such a society would be dominated by an elite, unrestrained by traditional values."
- Zbigniew Brzezinski
"The real rulers in Washington are invisible, and exercise power from behind the scenes."
- Felix Frankfurter (Supreme Court Justice, 1952)
"That which we say to the crowd is 'we worship God'...The religion should be, by all us initiates of the high degrees, maintained in the purity of the Lucifer doctrine...Yes! Lucifer is God."
- Albert Pike (in a letter he wrote to the heads of his Palladian Councils July 14, 1889)
"The government of the Western nations, whether monarchical or republican, had passed into the invisible hands of a plutocracy, international in power and grasp. It was, I venture to suggest, this semi-occult power which...pushed the mass of the American people into the cauldron of World War I."
- General John Frederick Charles Fuller (1941)
@88: McStain in pants:
I'm 62. I've been a political activist since 1968, when I got out of 'my' war.
I have been gassed, arrested, beat up, trampled by a horse, shoved to the ground an kicked by cops and national guard, spat upon by my fellow citizens for my efforts. I will put my bona fides against ANY of yours, sir. I dunno the last time you were butt-fucked, but my infgormants tell me EVERYTHING feels like a fucking telephone pole...
"The CFR, dedicated to one-world government, financed by a number of the largest tax-exempt foundations, and wielding such power and influence over our lives in the areas of finance, business, labor, military, education, and mass communication-media, should be familiar to every American concerned with good government, and with preserving and defending the U.S. Constitution and our free-enterprise system. Yet, the nation's right-to-know machinery, the news media, usually so aggressive in exposures to inform our people, remain conspicuously silent when it comes to the CFR, its members and their activities."
- Congressman John R. Rarick
"The most powerful clique in these elitist groups have one objective in common. They want to bring about the surrender of the sovereignty of the national independence of the United States. A second clique of international members in the CFR comprises the Wall Street international bankers and their key agents. Primarily, they want the world banking monopoly from whatever power ends up in the control of global government."
- Rear Admiral Chester Ward (former member of the CFR)
262 members of the secret CFR are journalists, correspondents, and communication executives. The list includes:
Tom Brokaw, David Brinkley, Barbara Walters, Diane Sawyer, Ted Koppel, Robert McNeill, Jim Lehrer, David Gergen, William F. Buckley Jr., Dan Rather, Bill Moyers, Sol Linowitz, Katherine Graham, George V. Grune, Thomas S. Murphy, John F. Welch Jr., Lawrence A. Tisch, Rupert Murdoch.
Ron @ 86:
Just think about it. If the Dems have enough of a majority, They won’t have to compromise with the repugnants at all if they don’t want to.
I suspect the Dems won't be able to work together at all. When Carter ran in '76 the favored Democrat was Teddy Kennedy. When he won the nomination that made the Democratic controlled Congress wary of him. When he made his dislike for Congress clear (he was trying to be a different kind of politician too) they deadlocked within the same party.
With Obama distancing party stalwarts like the Cuomos, Clintons, Ferraro, and non-aligned politicians like Jesse Jackson, I see a possible repeat of 76-80.
Mister Anderson @ 6:
WHy he capitulates on this instead of hammering home that Drilling does nothing for our gas prices in the short or long term!
And in the long term, 10 YEARS, we might get an 18 cent reduction in cost which would translate into profits for the oil companies instead.
Or best case scenario, they would split the profit and give Americans 9 cents at the pump... in 10 YEARS, but I doubt that.
Does anyone thing 18 cents now is equal to 18 cents in the future??
So what exactly is the benefit of loosing the last pristine wilderness in America?
Oh yea.... NOTHING!!
Does Obama want to loose his base support? California is a prime example of holding the line on environmental protection.
Don't go there Obama!!
I'll still vote for you, but I'll have such low respect for you!!
Yep.
Dan @ 21:
People, read exactly what Obama said, not just what C&L has posted.
Obama's approach is reasoned and cautionary. Jumping to conclusions based on a thread head (with an exclamation point, no less) is exactly what the Republicans want.
woody, tokin librul @ 77:
Hey!
I'm down with that!!
As if it would ever happen here...
@52 McStain
I'll vote for Cynthia McKinney.
Barack Obama will lose the election if the choice is either elect John McCain or elect someone who sounds like John McCain.
And I was just getting over my disillusionment of this capitulating joker....
woody, tokin librul @ 89:
I'm daft? Who do you think that they will vote with when they have a super majority? They still want to win their seat the next time around. Please don't refer to Loserman as a dem.
If Obama votes for off shore drilling, I will be done with him. I will wait to see how he votes on this issue. If he votes for this, I will vote for Nader. This is my last straw with him.
@ 83 Charles
What math are you talking about? The math that the morons who claim to lead us don’t represent us at all?
Do you think Obama represents your interests as a human or as a citizen of this country (actually it’s a corporation)?
______
By "do the math" I meant if you don't vote, you still vote. It's a simple concept.
And yes, Obama represents a lot of my interests as a human and citizen of this country. Better than any other president has in my 42 years. He understands the discrimination and hate I've experienced and the desire to be treated equally. He cares about world peace and is willing to actually talk to other world leaders rather than invade and drop bombs and kill thousands of our own troops along with tens of thousands of innocent lives. This is the most important issue on the table for me. I could care less about corporate America etc. That will never change as long as we remain a capitalist society. And I will die in it wishing I had been born in Sweden.
CitizenX @ 94:
And you know why they're not?
Cuz there's ZERO excess refining capacity.
And NO MORE to come.
Oil production peaked in 2005 according to T Boone Pickens.
There's not enough oil left to amortize the costs of building new capacity.
This lets the Oil companies continue to produce OBSCENELY HUGE profits and blame the everybody else.
Maybe we could drill for haggis?
104 oncall Says:
Obama’s approach is reasoned and cautionary. Jumping to conclusions based on a thread head (with an exclamation point, no less) is exactly what the Republicans want.
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Sounds like another comment pre FISA bill.
McStain in my pants @ 68:
To all the Debbie Downers out there… CHANGE does not arrive on your doorstep in a handbasket. Dang if this isn’t a country filled with bottle-fed helpless little cry babies
_____________________________________________________________________
Paraphrasing phil gramm's, "Nation of Whiners?"
E. Skyhawk @ 105:
as as a bonus all those unemployed oil men could join the army and go to Iraq or some other part of the empire and fight.
woody, tokin librul @ 110:
Supplies are abundant and there is no shortage.
harley @ 112:
Yup...
Obama wants to deal with people who cheat without any safeguards.
You're gonna hafta take their wives and children, and their country club memberships hostage if you expect the Pukes/Cons/Fascists to honor a deal...
and send 'em an occasional finger as a reminder...
Whether we like offshore drilling or not, 83% of the American populace is for it. How can we slam Obama for LISTENING TO THE PEOPLE? Isn't that what we want from our president? Especially after the last eight years??
I am as disappointed about FISA as the next person. I am not fond of offshore drilling. But many people in this country have been bamboozled by it. How can we say we want Obama to NOT support what an overwhelming majority want?
And look at how he couched it...only as a part of a larger plan - which the GOP will never allow.
Think people! For crying out loud!
Mick Piobr @ 111:
sounds good to me, theres definitely a haggi shortage around here :(
It's obvious this site has been overrun by ugly moronic repugs so I quit. It's pointless to debate imposters. It's not an honest forum. Speaks loads don't it?
Obama '08
Might be time to start looking at a opposition party.
Dems = Reps
http://www.gp.org/index.php
111 Mick Piobr Says: Maybe we could drill for haggis?
That probably give us gas.
I thought McStain was calling *us* whiners....
ferrofluid @ 118 And it's too long between highland games. I'm gonna run on the "Highland Games Once a Month" platform. A haggis in every pot and pot in every haggis.
Re compromise
I understand the need for compromise to run things, the problem is that offshore drilling like FISA is not about compromise, it's about doing the right thing. A compromise just gives you a solution that doesn't work in these instances, also let's not forget that republicks still got what they wanted out of FISA and the dems got ...
So if we go with a "compromise" on offshore drilling, we'll get slightly less beaches covered in black goo, oil companies will make more money, heck oil prices may even go up if one of those off shore rigs gets incapacitated and speculators decide it's a good idea to drive prices up, and the dems will get what exactly? You actually believe that the party that believes that climate change is a hoax/bad for business is going to go for alternative energy sources?
Ron @ 115:
Oil supplies are still adequate--albeit declining, measurably--but there's been a global refinery shortage since about 2002. And it ain't gonna be fixed, because the refinery shortage keeps supply low, even when demand lesssens, and artificially inflates prices. Think California /Enron, in 2001-02...They've gotten quite good at this...
oil,gas........political cash list of companies that lease land that donate to RNC
http://www.ewg.org/oil_and_gas/part11.php
Over the last couple of months the Republicans have stymied all energy legislation, not letting the curbing oil speculation bill come to a vote, & not renewing the alternative energy tax credit. Presumably they'll let those bills go through if they can add an amendment to the oil spec bill to allow drilling. All the masses hear of this stuggle is that Dems won't allow drilling. And now that the Dems are flip-flopping. The press won't tell the real story, and even many liberals don't seem to understand how the Dems came to this point of considering a compromise on drilling. I don't want to drill in ANWAR & I think they should use the leases they currently have before they even consider getting any more, but I do want to see the alternative tax credit legislation renewed and I do want the oil spec/close enron loophole bill passed. The prospect of the alt energy tax credit expiring at year end is hurting us, as companies with viable projects are gearing down, just at a time when they should be full speed ahead. It's all very frustrating.
C'mon people ... I agree w/ oncall's comment above ... listen to him. The emotional reaction here reminds me of right-wing threads.
Do you think Obama suddenly thinks offshore drilling is the answer? Hardly. Read his whole plan (here) and then read McCain's (here) ... Obama's is realistic and so much better than McCain's. If Obama were to compromise on a bill that allowed some offshore drilling, it wouldn't even make it into this plan because he knows, as does every serious analyst, that it's not the answer.
All the people that all the sudden think Obama is anti-christ need to take a deep breath and relax ... reminds me of the Hillary supporters who'd rather have McCain-appointed supreme court justices for the next 30 yrs just to spite Obama. If that's what you want, go for it ... I'd rather pressure my representatives to pressure Obama on what I want after he's in the Oval Office.
McStain in my pants @ 119:
You're a baby, if you cannot examine the facfts without the veil of your roesy glasses...get real, pal...we're fucked, and it doesn't really matter which sock-puppet they put on as a condom...
114 ferrofluid
Unless they're on some kind of list of human rights abusers, the Brazilians really want an opportunity to sell their sugar based ethanol to us, but we have restrictive tariffs on them, supposedly to "preserve" our alternative fuel researches. That could work in the short-term.
Additionally, unemployed soldiers redeploying essentially for wealthy elites was the plan of the Corporate Fascists putsch planning in 1933.
People are desperate for relief, so they won't listen to reason when it comes to drilling in ANWR or the Gulf. "Screw the environment, I can't afford to gas up my Hummer!" People are stupid, paranoid, and completely self-involved, and as more and more people get panicky about gas prices, the more likely they are to believe the right wing's lies. The higher the price goes, the more people will slip into the delusion that more drilling is the answer, and the more people it becomes a deal-breaker for.
You don't really think Obama wants to drill, or believes it will help in any way, do you? Of course he doesn't, but if he has to make a hedged statement on this to win, so be it.
MsJoanne @ 117:
He's caving to dishonest political demagoguery... The people? It's a really good thing we don't govern by plebiscite or direct democracy. You think it's bad now?
Ozymandias @ 103:
Oh.... I forgot they never report what Obama actually DID say.... my bad.
Obama, I'm still behind you a gazillion percent!!!
128 Brian Says: If Obama votes for off shore drilling, I will be done with him. I will wait to see how he votes on this issue. If he votes for this, I will vote for Nader. This is my last straw with him.
C’mon people … I agree w/ oncall’s comment above … listen to him. The emotional reaction here reminds me of right-wing threads.
_____________________________________________________________________
No then we would be calling for assasinations and/or calling people traitors, and you noticed the only one who did so in effect was 119 McStain in my pants.
onoclea @ 127:
excellent points..........this is my understanding especially regarding the alter. tax credit
Actually, come to think of it blind support for leaders in ones own party, regardless of what they say, is the hallmark of the right-wing threads.
I wonder what Obama's gonna do about "free-speech zones," and screening people who come to his speeches?
McStain in my pants @ 109:
To those who think Obama is capitulating on this important issue and believe that his FISA vote is a premonition, just remember that if Obama is to become President, and we have a Democratic majority in the Congress, he can just as easily submit a bill reversing the current FISA regulations. He has implied, but not specifically said that may occur. He has explained (he is a Constitutional Expert, I hope you remember), that the current FISA regulations are the result of poorly written legislation.
If you believe he is not a man of good principle, don't vote for him. If you believe that he is one of the last best chances to keep this country from utterly destroying its potential, even if you don't agree with some of his positions, don't be so angry as to recognize that the other side is winning this battle and that they have have nothing to lose.
Mick Piobr @ 22:
Agreed. Sure, he's pandering, but the 15 second Rethug sound byte of "Obama doesn't care about gas prices" would be harder to defend against. I just don't expect Obama to push for offshore expansion a-la ShrubCo. This will go away once he's in office, IMHO.
fair enough ... good point, but still ... there is some over-reactive commenting here
George @ 2:
The fact of the matter is that with the all out media blitz about offshore drilling turning public opinion, Obama has to at least semi support it or there is no way that he will get elected. I read that just two years ago only 36% of Americans were for offshore drilling, now it's around 70%. I wish people would see through the all of the BS, but in reality most people don't bother to check the facts on anything themselves because that would require some reading. I to wish Obama could fight this, but on this case it would be a losing proposition for him. He can't do any good if he doesn't even get elected.
woody, tokin librul @ 132:
I think that 83% is alot of people, that's what I think. And I think that it's about fucking time that someone LISTENS to what the people say, right or wrong.
We are a nation of people. We're not talking some small number of people who support this. I personally do not. But I am one of 300 million people.
We are never going to get all of what we want. But who is closer to what we want, McCain or Obama. For that is the choice. You can play with all the others, but all of them together are nothing. The choice is McCain or Obama.
Go ahead to all of you who want Nader or whomever. And when we wind up with McCain, I don't want to hear one bitch from you. Not one fucking word. Because there is one and only one thing we have to remember...
McCain or Obama.
Obama is a lousy pick. I mentioned it before but folks
in C&L called me names, which old coot is my favorite.
Joe Biden would have been great. He wouldn't take the bad
high road advise the DNC losers use during an election.
Anyone who thinks the American voter will do the right thing
at the polls should be reminded of two words-George Bush. We
not only elected the worst president in the history of the USA,
we re-elected him. Now with a great chanch to beat the awful
Republicans we nominate Obama. You guys in C&L wanted him
well you got him until Nov. Then you got McCain for 4yrs. Nice
going. :(
MsJoanne @ 117:
Whether we like offshore drilling or not, 83% of the American populace is for it. How can we slam Obama for LISTENING TO THE PEOPLE?
------------
I believe this poster works for the Obama campaign - paid shill.
With that said. People that understand economics know that oil prices are because of monetary policy. You authorize bail outs, pass out stimulus checks, lower taxes rates while overspending and keep interest rates below the rate of inflation your currency is going go down. When your currency is the world reserve currency that means oils goes up.
The price of oil is because of horrible fiscal policy.
Also this drill drill drill started after U.S. companies were not winning oil drilling contracts in Iraq.
I hadn't heard about the repugs holding up bills to curb oil speculators. So wouldn't it behoove Obama to refer directly to that and put the oppoosition party on the defensive (and under-cutting Obama raised the cost of gas ads), rather than accepting the reich-wing talking points, and playing by their rules?
Commentator @ 131:
"Drill" under the hood. The decision to not do so on a mass, national emergency scale is way more political than technological. The reciprocating engine is a woefully inefficient mechanical dinosaur whose economic viability was predicated on the availability of cheap hydrocarbon fuel. I rather doubt we'll ever return to such an era (moreover, were we to suddenly find orders-of-magnitude more vast, extractable petro deposits, we'd literally choke the planet with the waste output).
harley @ 143:
I'm a paid shill?? For what, having some common sense? Fuck you, harley. Get a clue.
I repeat: McCain or Obama. PERIOD.
i dunno what everyone else heard but i heard a clip of obama on this subject last night and i did not take it as obama conceding the issue at all. what i heard him say was in terms of an energy policy nothing is off the table.
why is it that when mccain says "nothing is off the table" the left readily recognizes it as bullshit but when obama says it the impulse is to jump to the most radical conclusion, that he is advocating for offshore drilling.
maybe i missed something but i don't think i did.
feeling aggravated today? swim over to the jimmy kimmel show website and watch last night's show where he does the non-presidential/presidential piece. it will make your heart glad.
Speaking at a political meeting in Miami, Florida, the Reuters News Service, US reported Governor Schwarzenegger as saying, “Anyone who tells you that this will bring down our gas prices immediately or anytime soon is blowing smoke.” Alexander agrees; he says drilling for oil offshore would take years and “would conceivably drive prices further into the stratosphere while waiting for the future benefits.” However, Alexander note, the greater concern with offshore oil drilling is the potential environmental dangers and the need to reduce the nation’s dependency on oil.
Senator John McCain is also proposing a plan to build 45 new nuclear power plants by 2030. Again, McCain came under heavy criticism from many opponents. Building nuclear power plants to satisfy the nation’s energy needs could take 10 to 20 years; and again,
Gosh. What a shock. Blah, blah, blah. Go ahead. Vote McBama. You get the same shit either way. Don't blame the Republicans, they're smart at getting what they want while Democrats fold every-single-time.
I'll go with McKinney & Clemente, thank you.
MsJoanne @ 146:
Sorry folks, she's right. Take a pick.
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