McCain on the Georgian/Russian Conflict
By Nicole Belle Sunday Aug 10, 2008 8:00pm
Fascinating. Does the guy want us to attack Russia?
"Today, many are dead and Georgia is in crisis, yet the Obama campaign has offered nothing more than cheap and petty political attacks that are echoed only by the Kremlin," said McCain aide Tucker Bounds in the statement. "The reaction of the Obama campaign to this crisis, so at odds with our democratic allies and yet so bizarrely in sync with Moscow, doesn't merely raise questions about Sen. Obama's judgment -- it answers them."
What is he trying to say?
"Russian President Medvedev and Prime Minister Putin must understand the severe, long-term negative consequences that their government's actions will have for Russia's relationship with the U.S. and Europe," McCain said.
And, describing the Russian assaults that have gone beyond the disputed territory and into sovereign Georgia as "Moscow's path of violent aggression," the GOP nominee suggested that Putin's aim may be to overthrow the pro-U.S. government in Georgia.
"This should be unacceptable to all the democratic countries of the world, and should draw us together in universal condemnation of Russian aggression," McCain said.
As I blogged yesterday, neocons loves them some military conflict, as long as they don't have to fight it. The biggest neocon chickenhawk of them all, William "The Bloody" Kristol is rah-rahing for it: (reg. req'd)
When the "civilized world" expostulated with Russia about Georgia in 1924, the Soviet regime was still weak. In Germany, Hitler was in jail. Only 16 years later, Britain stood virtually alone against a Nazi-Soviet axis. Is it not true today, as it was in the 1920s and '30s, that delay and irresolution on the part of the democracies simply invite future threats and graver dangers?
Have you learned nothing from your warmongering ways? If you're so hot to fight, suit up, Kristol. Our resources are tapped out by your last cheerleading effort. Matt Yglesias agrees with me.
If Kristol really thinks we should go to war with Russia, he's being crazy and irresponsible. If he doesn't think that, then he has no business busting out these Munich analogies. Nowhere in his column does he propose a single concrete step with any meaningful chance of altering the situation - it's all dedicated to mocking doves, but utterly lacking in viable alternatives.
That's it in a nutshell.
UPDATE: Where is John McCain getting his foreign policy positions vis à vis Georgia? Wikipedia, of course!
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The fighting is worst on the Georgia/Czechoslovakia border.
I hear Canada is nice at this time of year.
odanny @ 1:
I'm pretty sure you mean the area around the Pakistan/Iraq border don't you? Geez, what are they teaching about geography these days.
But that aside, what a great idea. We'll keep fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan and strap on Iran and Russia to boot. Piece of cake for a tough guy, war hero like McLame. Hope everybody's as excited about this as I am. A vote for McSame is TRULY a vote for endless war (and more tax breaks for the uber rich.) What a country!!!
McCain needs to discuss this.
Here's what happened.
http://tinyurl.com/64t54m
I wouldn't put it past the GOP fucktards to invade Russia. Considering that Russia is the world's largest supplier of platinum, and they provide a large chunk of the world's oil supply, this will only fuck the whole world over six ways to Sunday.
somebody, please tell McCain how to pronounce Georgian president's name...
What world is Bill Kristol from? The UK did not stand alone against a Nazi-Soviet Axis, the Axis powers even then were Germany, Italy, and Japan. The Non-Aggression pact was intended to be broken by both sides, and the Nazis got dibs. I would also venture that the comparison of the world of the 30s with the world of today is a very flawed comparison, as Russia will hit Iran in the event of an Iranian-Israeli war, and Syria and Hamas are regional threats to Israel, not to the security of a nation an ocean away.
Does Bill Kristol have the US confused with Israel for some reason? None of the threats he mentioned would impact us, but they threaten the Israelis. What gives?
This is one of those times when a little moral authority would come in handy. Possibly even allow the US to resolve the situation without any bloodshed.
Too bad we spent that on the neocon's idiotic Iraq adventure.
The Media spin is astounding. Notice how this is missing from all the Media we've been getting?
Russia called Friday upon Georgia to halt its offensive upon South Ossetia and return to talks with the breakaway region.
Georgian authorities "should change their minds and return to civilised means of resolving difficult political questions," a Russian foreign ministry spokesman, Boris Malakhov, said on the news channel Vesti 24.
"It is still not too late to prevent a massive bloodbath and new victims, including among civilians," he said.
Russia, which has peacekeepers deployed in South Ossetia and previously warned it won't remain on the sidelines in the event of a Georgian attempt to resolve the situation by force, intends to "continue its pursuit of efforts to prevent the spilling of blood and for the process of resolving the situation to return to peaceful means," said Malakhov.
Russia also requested the UN Security Council hold an emergency meeting late Thursday on the escalating fighting in Georgia's breakaway region of South Ossetia, diplomats at the UN headquarters in New York said.
Damn commies, we better go nuke 'em.
Blue Buddha @ 5:
There's no soldiers or weapons to invade Russia, plus Russia has a large nuclear arsenal.
They won't invade Russia.
dothehop @ 10:
Oh yeah we'll show em' won't we.
What exactly is McDepends gonna' attack Russia with ?
A box of his used diapers ?
And the clod couldn't even pronounce the Georgian president's name correctly ; the moron butchered it 3 friggin times.
Haven't we already seen this stupid movie ?
How presumptious. I didn't realize Obama was President yet. Why does he have to do anything?
If McCain wants to direct any anger towards an elected official who is asleep at the wheel, he should call out George W Bush and Condi.
Seriously. Why isn't it John Edwards' fault. I mean...he fucked another woman?
MCMetal @ 13:
Budweiser trucks launching beer cans. The McCain Military.
I kinda like what Bush said today about the brutal 'excalation'. At least it is not 'nukular excalation'. Say that three times fast.
Unfortunately we (US) are not in a position to whine about a country invading a soveriegn nation for oil and gas pipelines.
vano @ 6:
and the capital of Georgia...
All this info can be easily found on the internet ... oops ... that won't work, I guess. :)
General_Rennenkampf @ 11:
Our troops are tired, pissed off, worn out. Russia's military is fresh, prepared, ready. Of course they haven't been off to foreign lands plundering countries for rich boy millionaires, idiots, and chicken hawks who work for oil companies either.
L.A. Confidential @ 15:
So now you're trying to turn this into a true international conflict. I'm not sure Belgium will stand for being dragged into this by the beer distribution heiress's ancient pimp.
Jamie @ 16:
Nor do we have the power capabilities John McCain thinks we do. Russia won't back down and cower, and the rest of the world won't just sit there and let the US and Russia go into nuke war mode. Where does John McCain think he's going to find the ability to invade Russia? And who's gonna be stupid enough to go along with it?
L.A. Confidential @ 18:
No, they've been butchering the hell out of Chechnya instead.
Russia's nuclear capacity is their main deterrent right now, not the rest of their army.
Everybody is so hypocritical over this whole Russia Georgia conflict. South Ossetia wants to secede. The people there voted to secede and Georgia said to them "no, you can't leave." So Russia supports their independence.
It seems like Kosova except now we're on the side of the Serbs as Georgia does seem to be the oppressor in this case. The candidates should say "we'll do something if Russia takes over Georgia." But, besides that they should support South Ossetian independence.
I really, REALLY cannot believe that there are actually people who think that at this moment either the UK or the US ahs the moral authority to talk down to the Russians WHILE WE ARE STILL IN IRAQ!!!
It's never the crime it is always the fucking hypocracy.
bowchikabowbow @ 22:
This is Kosovo's payback. It's a bitch, ain't it?
The West's definition for today's arbitrary borders is, once drawn, cannot be altered...unless we say so.
Hypocrites, the lot of them.
georgia news direct:
http://civilgeorgia.blogspot.com/
Chicken Hussein Little - NOT!! @ 19:
Yeah McCain will ban Baltika and Stary Melnik imports then do a Mission Accomplished photo op.
"In sync with Moscow"???
Barack Obama:
http://www.barackobama.com/2008/08/09/statement_from_senator_barack_3.php
McCain't the right one.
General_Rennenkampf @ 21:
Ramzan Kadyrov's no saint don't kid yourself thinking Chechnya's a sun and shining center of peace love and dove.
That’s it in a nutshell.
Nutshell, nutcase, whatever.
General_Rennenkampf @ 23:
The candidates did say that. Russia is using this as an excuse to attack Georgia. It would be best if you learned about how dangerous of a man Putin is before speaking on this subject. How old are the naive people posting on here? 15 years old. Learn about the history and complexity of things before you speak of them, otherwise you just sound foolish.
russia need not worry about a u.s. attack . . . we only pick on countries that we can shock and awe
Chicken Hussein Little - NOT!! @ 3:
Hold your horses; a few weeks ago McCain wasn't aware that the Chez Republic and Slovakia had split long ago, and thus the joke the original poster was trying to go for was obviously lost on you.
Man is the old fart boring. How about just a little
emotion in his speech.
What did Obama say about the Georgian/Russian situation, anyway? What's got McCain's undies in a bunch from his phony outrage?
Zzzzzzzzzz. Zzzzzzzzzzz. Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
What did he say? I fell asleep at the 2:16 mark.
He is high on Ibogaine again? He just blames and accuses Obama for everything. Paranoid. It's a symptom of Ibogaine abuse.
mathew @ 29:
Technically, Georgia struck first. Russia's been daring them to do it for 15 years, but it was still Georgia that hit first. And yes, I'm aware of how dangerous Putin is. I remember that spy he liquidated in another nation's capital. The question I want to ask you is: explain to me what you consider the history and complexity of this particular question. Please, do.
L.A. Confidential @ 27:
Did that justify turning Grozny into a suburb of Hell? Russia used Mongol tactics in that little fight. Their actions there far exceed anything NATO did in Serbia or in Iraq or Afghanistan, don't kid yourself that razing Grozny was at all an acceptable way to handle that.
Tyler Durden @ 31:
He was kidding...
I hope.
The OP in this thread referenced the Chezchoslovakia-does-not-exist-anymore-gaffe, and then CHL made a joke on the Iraq-Pakistan border gaffe.
Unless you forgot there's an entire country between Iraq and Pakistan.
General_Rennenkampf @ 23:
This has nothing to do with Kosovo...
This is Georgia playing chicken with Moscow thinking that the US actually honors its alliances (idiots), and Moscow calling their bluff (double idiots).
If no one does anything really stupid in the next few days, this will hopefully blow over. This is Putin flexing muscles and doing their own manifest destiny polka... or whatever it is they dance over there.
Isn't McCain being presumptuous and "presidential?" Wasn't Obama accused of that very thing just recently? This is not meant to trivialize what's going on. It's just meant to show what is good for the goose is not good for the gander in Presidential politics in the good ol' USofA.
mathew @ 29:
Putins only dangerous when provoked. Before Boosh and his thugs got installed Putin was enjoying excellent relations with the west.
This is the neocon/fascist answer to any problem in the world.....threaten their asses into submission. Ooops...if they are a major world power, and we are stretched beyond our limit...maybe they will tell us to go f*ck ourselves???
This horse's ass is such an embarrassment. I sure hope he plans to retire when this clown act of running for preznit is over. He is a disgrace...even to repuglicants. Sad...sorry....just sad.
I am waiting for McCain to push for US troops to be sent to Atlanta.
Is there anything that is not an excuse for this dimwit to go negative? After almost 8 years of politics trumping everything, McSame is indeed preening for Bush's 3rd term.
Tyler Durden @ 39:
No...this has everything to do with Kosovo. When the US and a few other nations with no separatist issues recognized Kosovo over the objections of a good chunk of the rest of the world, somebody was going to use that as a counterpoint. I didn't expect as neat a counterpoint as this, though. Considering Putin's record in Chechnya, this sort of subtle irony is not his style.
Georgia's leader is dumber than Montezuma. He may be the last independent leader of Georgia for quite some time, regardless of annexation or not.
General_Rennenkampf @ 38:
LOL, mea culpa...
It is so hard to keep up with McCain's gaffes... seriously, only in this country this ignorant old fart could be a viable candidate. 99% of the press in this country should be tried for treason, they would make Pravda blush.
General_Rennenkampf @ 37:
War is hell dude. I hate it. What makes us any better then Mongrels with what we've been doing in Iraq?
L.A. Confidential @ 15:
Wouldn't that mean that Belgium has decided to enter the conflict? (sarcasm off)
L.A. Confidential @ 47:
Simple...we didn't turn entire cities into wastelands and dance on piles of the skulls of our enemies, the way Mr. Temujin was fond of doing. The methods of Ghenghis Khan were much more destructive than Hitler's, even. And the US Army in Iraq has been no Mongol Horde or Nazi barbarian gang.
Why isn't Sen McCain asking the actual President, Dubya, what he intends to do?
Amazing how he can overcome his despair over the situation just long enough to get in a political dig. Where does he find the strength???
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Central_Asia/JH12Ag02.html
Perhaps blaming Russia isn't the right thing to do.
jasmoran66 @ 51:
Animatronic mechanical beasts know no fatigue.
L.A. Confidential @ 41:
He was a higher up in the KGB, I was told by a Russian friend of mine is that for the most part, anyone with a rank of Captain or higher on that organization had to have at least a few kills at their own hands.
Putin is dangerous make not mistake about that. However, unlike Boosh and Cheney he has done his own biding directly, and in a weird sense he is far more aware of the consequences. I would not feel comfortable thinking that the nitwits at the Neo-Con think tanks feel they can play that son of a bitch Putin like a fiddle...
General_Rennenkampf @ 49:
Right were just a Kinder Gentler Ghengis Kahn kind of country then. Technological Barbarians.
Holy cow....
I am going to put this on a loop if I can't sleep tonight. Once time through was almost enough to spill me out of desk and off to dreamland. McCain has one serious whistle-drone going there.
Tyler Durden @ 54:
They just tried and we are seeing the results of another neocon folly. Probably the last as far as Putins concerned.
OK, Obama's and McCaine's positions are not different. They are the same as Bush. And that is supporting the lie that Russia started this to begin with. The question is WHO told Georgia to start all of this to begin with? Russia is defending itself. Ossetia won independence from GEORGIA in the early 90's NOT from Russia. It also CHOSE THROUGH elections to align itself with Russia. This is bullshit and a provocation by Brzezinski types to take an opportunistic time to continue with NATO's goal to surround Russia with prowest little countries. Guess who Obama's top foreign affairs advisor is? Yes, Brzezinski.
http://rense.com/general82/indt.htm
Medvedev broke on the Munich analogy in reference to Georgia:
Medvedev, meeting the leaders of the State Duma factions in the Kremlin on Monday, cautioned the West not to flirt with "aggressors."
"I will remind you that history has plenty of examples of pacifying an aggressor. Western countries were engaged in this 70 years ago," Medvedev said, referring to the Munich agreement of 1938. The agreement, signed by Germany, Britain, France and Italy, "untied the hands of the Hitler regime" to annex and occupy part of the former Czechoslovakia, he said. -- Moscow Times
War War War War War
He loves it.
As McCain said, there will be more wars and he gets a giant woody every time he thinks about it.
moktar @ 58:
Putin understands that also. Very clearly. With Obama he's getting Brezinski to have to deal with.
Another interesting historical tidbit. Georgia has the third largest contingent in the coalition of the willing in Iraq. Mongolia also has an important contingent. Back in the 13th century, the Mongols devastated Baghdad with the help of the Georgians who were the most brutal of Mongol's allies.
What great company.
Putin is following Bush/Cheney diplomacy. Start a unprovoked war, ignore the international community and hell with collateral damage.
Putin is afraid, very afraid of George W. The commander in chief who has his American military bogged down in Iraq for 6 years desperately trying to secure the capital. Oh yeah W, you tell those Russians not to invade a country that has not threatened them. Bush saw Putin in China 4 days ago in person and what did Jr boyking do? He ran away with his tail between his legs!
Not sure if this is accurate reporting, but thought I would post it for you to decide.
American troops found amongst Georgian dead
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mBMQufrBWdg
RMB @ 63:
The Georgian people got suckered by these misfits. Just like we've been being suckered.
http://tinyurl.com/6rnv5a
if mccain were 50 years younger, he would go to georgia,get captured and become a pow.
Here are the two best links I've found about Georgia and the Ossetian War 2008.
The Guardian UK's Georgia page, with both current and archived articles, and commentary from a variety of perspectives.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/georgia
Wikipedia: 2008 South Ossetia war
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Ossetia_War_(2008)
Putin's message to Bush/Cheney and the next president is loud and clear. Don't even think about continuing with that little plan to put a missile defense system anywhere in Eastern Europe. I think he was ready for this and as soon as Georgia fell into the trap by invading South Ossetia , Putin put his plan into action. He would never have moved that fast just on testosterone. And there is little the west can do now with their asses bogged in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Is McCain the President? Kind of presumptuous for him to be making foreign policy declarations, doncha think? Some might even call it "uppity".
How bout this one?
"I have signed a decree on a state of war. Georgia is under a state of total military aggression by the Russian navy, air force, large-scale ground operations," Mr Saakashvili told his national security council.
"The future world order is to be decided today in Georgia."
Right send in the Calvary George!
L.A. Confidential @ 55:
No, the laws of war have not been suspended in Iraq to the degree they were in Chechnya. We used white phosphorus, yes. Last I checked we still left Fallujah habitable. Grozny is a ruin.
General_Rennenkampf @ 71:
And depleted Uranium.
L.A. Confidential @ 57:
Aside from the two wars in which we're currently mired, America's credibility on this subject is near zero. The illegal invasion and occupation of Iraq by this turd of a president has rendered our influence negligible.
How any
hawkish Republicanwar criminal can comment on the morality of this war without a roomful of laughter due to its extreme hypocrisy is beyond me.jwf @ 73:
We're the biggest debtor nation in the world, we've been suckered into playing "whack the mole" in the ME, our economy's shaky legs are getting ready to buckle and we've committed war crimes and atrocities that have required our highest cabinet members to flee countries to avoid arrest.
I think you're being kind saying our "credibility on this subject is near zero."
Moose @ 74:
Unbelievable isn't it?
We're fighting them over there so we don't have to fight them here!
Bring it on!
Your either with us or against us.
The surge is working!
Chicken Hussein Little - NOT!! @ 75:
Plus at this point we'd have to borrow money from Russia just to attack them.
What are these cheap and petty attacks by Obama? What if anything did he say concerning the situation? It goes from mcgramps cheap and petty positioning to "prove" his foreign gravitas to wee-willy, and we all know he's a fruitcake, heavy on the fruits and nuts.
This is where eight years of George W. Bush's foreign policy have left us: Our military--such as it is--is pinned down in Afghanistan and Iraq and wouldn't be able to do anything about the fighting in Georgia anyway; our foreign policy has left us utterly bereft of influence (witness Putin's snarled warning to "back off"); we've lost the moral high-ground by employing torture, rendition, and pre-emptive warfare to deal with "the war on terror"; we've rendered the United Nations useless; and we're in real danger of revealing ourselves as an impotent colossus.
Thanks a lot, George. As if our domestic troubles weren't enough.
Plus Bush-Cheney screwed Russia out of the revenues they we're owed by Iraq.
No surprise there.
62 ceti Says: Another interesting historical tidbit. Georgia has the third largest contingent in the coalition of the willing in Iraq. Mongolia also has an important contingent. Back in the 13th century, the Mongols devastated Baghdad with the help of the Georgians who were the most brutal of Mongol’s allies.
What great company.
We should invite them over to tea and cakes.
Just be careful with the lady fingers; there might be hangnails
Or even press on nails.
General_Rennenkampf @ 71:
Define "habitable"
McJackass is an even bigger, more egotistical, out of touch than the schmuck presently occupying the White House.
Blue Buddha @ 5:
I`m having a wet dream thinking about all those hot shot fly boys that represent Bush, Cheney and the neocon administration that have been shooting up civilian targets or anything that moves in Iraq for the last few years with nobody shooting back. Real fucking American super stars. Now they are wondering what it would be like having a hot shot Russian Mig pilot on their ass. Oh dear!
Tyler Durden @ 82:
http://www.citizensofcopenhagen.org/images/fallujah5.jpg
This sounds like a return to WWI, not II. Some minor commotion in Eastern Europe to start a World War.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9J6-QAUzCrI
This stinks to me also of our fastest turnaround relationship imaginable with the former USSR pre, during, and after World War II.
It smells like jealousy that the new Russia will be 21 century economic players, and not us.
boosh has sapped us of all our strength: fighting, moral and economic.
Bush and Cheney won't do anything because...
All Russia would have to do to destroy the US is shut off the oil spigot and we'd have $7.00 a gallon gas and a depression!
The NATO nations won't do shit because they get 40% of their natural gas from Russia.
So all the hand wringing is for naught... Russia has us over a barrel of oil and beside, our military is broke and over extended and... Psssst... we are so broke that we don't have the financial resources to do jack shit in a third war!
Rice announced that she won't even come back from her vacation for this "disaster."
Nothing like a US/Soviet nuclear exchange to postpone the Nov election is there?
http://aftermathnews.wordpress.com/
Caspian Pipelines
http://europe.theoildrum.com/uploads/884/061118_Map_Caspian_oil_pipes.jpg
Are nukes in the picture?
http://www.democracynow.org/2008/8/11/up_to_2_000_killed_as
First, I want to say that the Georgian President has done something very stupid.
But, it seems no one here is seeing the really big picture. This is not payback for Kosovo. It is not just about missile defence systems, etc. This is about the hubris of the neo-cons touting America as the world's sole superpower after the collapse of the Soviet Union. That certainly ranked the Russians, and probably fed the nationalism that put Putin in power.
This is about showing any potential allies of the US that we will hang them out to dry if the going gets tough. "Superpower America" is being bled dry by enemies in the Muslim world, as they blow up multimillion dollar fighting vehicles with $50 IEDs, Putin seeks to sink our status in the world completely.
He looked into Bush's eyes, too. And he saw an ignorant, cowardly fool. He is showing his disrespect.
If Bush were a strong President, the Stealth bombers would have flown two days ago, and the blockading ships would be in flames. No, I am not a hawk. No, I don't want war with Russia. But Russia definitely does not want war with us.
While our Army and Marines are tied down and exhausted in Iraq and Afghanistan, the Air Force has all its capability, and I'm sure the "Christian" USAF would love to help out the Christian nation of Georgia. It's not a matter of invasion. We just have to make a strong statement, and UN resolutions, vetoed by Russia, don't count.
Bush 41 urged the Kurds and Shi'utes to rebel, then sold them out. Scarey as it is, we have to support the Georgians, to let Russia and the rest of the world that we don't let our friends down.
Richard Peterson @ 94:
We'd be in flames two days ago also.
Lasthorseman @ 89:
No. Definitely not. Russia does not want war with us. It is just a game of Chicken, and the biggest Fowl lives in the White House. Bush is getting pwned by Putin.
The principle of MAD (Mutually Assured Destruction) is just are real now as 30 years ago. Nobody wins a nuclear war.
This is not hawkish bluster (me, not McCain.) When Bush spoke to Putin is Beijing, he should have told him that, in order to maintain credibility in the world, America will have to defend Georgia, and Russian winters are colder than ours.
Putin may be too formidable for our politicians. He is not only extremely smart, but as some of you have said he has gotten his hands dirty. The majority of our politicians could not hold our own against someone like him either mentally or physically. I don't think Georgia's actions were right, but Russia is basically swatting a fly with a sledgehammer. Putin wishes to reconstitute the Soviet Union. A man like him with that power would be a threat to the entire world. I am not saying people like Bush are not dangerous but they lack the true intelligence of someone as cunning as Putin. This is something that we should be concerned about.
That's just Mr. Magoo, channeling his inner Yosemite Sam.
The complaints about McCain mispronouncing Saakashvili's name are misguided. It tells you all you have to know about McCain's foreign affairs expertise. He has no grasp of the situation, doesn't know who the players are, and cannot even read the words on the page without stumbling. And this guy is put forth as a credible candidate for the presidency?
I think it's fairly premature to believe any reporting about who actually started firing in South Ossetia. It may have been the Ossetian separatists, the Georgians, or, for that matter, third-party covert agents attempting to instigate matters. It doesn't take much to start a fire in a tinderbox.
Saakashvili may have been democratically elected, but he's hardly been the model democrat since taking office. He played the tough customer with Ajaria's Abashidze some years ago and it paid off for him (ie. Russia didn't do anything). Now, with relations good with the US, he probably feels like he could play chicken with the Ossetians, but the Russians called his bluff.
I'm not going to argue that either Putin or Saakashvili are heroes. They're not. Bush/Cheney, McCain, as well as Obama would do well not to choose sides here. South Caucasus ethnic tensions and geopolitics are extremely complex, and it's at the crux of many powerful actors in the area. By coming out like this, McCain is being extremely unwise.... but we knew that. I hope Obama doesn't fall into the trap of letting the necessities of campaign rhetoric pull him into either the Georgian or Russian camp.
L.A. Confidential @ 95:
That strikes me as an ignorant statement. No one wins a nuclear war, and Putin is not a fool, like Bush.
America surrendered its principles after 9/11, with the PATRIOT Act. Let's not surrender our honor as well. Stand by your friends, or you won't have any.
So will this turn into the crisis that will allow GWB to assume emergency, dictatorial powers the lawyers have written into law the last few years and stay in office indefinitely?
Georgia started the bloodshed NOT Russia.
Some history from By F. William Engdahl
www.engdahl.oilgeopolitics.net
[When the Soviet Union collapsed, both South Ossetia and another region known as Abkhazia sought to separate themselves from Georgia due to ethnic violence. In December 1990 Georgia under Gamsakhurdia sent troops into South Ossetia after the region declared its own sovereignty from Georgia.
By late 2005, Georgia signed an agreement that it would not use force, and the Abkhaz would allow the gradual return of 200,000-plus ethnic Georgians who had fled the violence. But the agreement collapsed in early 2006, when Saakashvili sent troops to retake the Kodori Valley in Abkhazia. Since then Saakashvili has been escalating preparations for military action ever since. In a November 2006 referendum, 99 percent of South Ossetians voted for independence from Georgia , at a time when most of them had long held Russian passports.
It is important to note this past April at the NATO summit in Bucharest, Romania, President Bush proposed accepting Georgia into NATO's "Action Plan for Membership," a precursor to NATO membership. To Washington 's surprise, ten NATO member states refused to support his plan, including Germany , France and Italy . Given the Georgian president's actions of aggression, NATO members argued that accepting the Georgians was problematic, because of the conflicts in Abkhazia and South Ossetia . They were in reality saying that they would not be willing to back Georgia as, under Article 5 of the NATO treaty, which mandates that an armed attack against any NATO member country must be considered an attack against them all and consequently requires use of collective armed force of all NATO members, it would mean that Europe could be faced with war against Russia over the tiny Caucasus Republic of Georgia, with its incalculable dictator, Saakashvili. That would mean the troubled Caucasus would be on a hair-trigger to detonate World War III.]
mathew @ 97:
George "Neville Chamberlain" Bush...
Richard Peterson @ 94:
Uh, you do recall that Russia is Christian too, I hope. Why are you bringing up this Christian Nation stuff to begin with??
Sending in stealth bombers (as if those things can't be seen and recognized for exactly what they are) would be an extremely stupid move. Just because Saakashvili is being stupid (I agree with you there), doesn't mean we have to all be lemmings and follow suit.
NAZI-SOVIET AXIS OF 1940?
That's a new one. I must admit, Kristol stores some very interesting concepts up his ass.
You think Putin isn't pissed at GW, since they were shmoozing in Bejing the very day that Saakashvili was bombing S. Ossetia? You think Bush didn't know?
moonsha @ 103:
Thank you for this moonsha.
Didn't bush want to install missle bases in Georgia too?
Looks like we have some kind of concern troll abouts .
Richard Peterson @ 93:
Brilliant, you start off by stating the Georgians did something very stupid, which they did, as well as believing the US, the UN, and NATO would back them up. Then you state we should back them up with stealth bombers and burning ships. Then you say your not a hawk. My money is on Putin winning this show down. Be sure and watch closely when the US starts to install their missle defence system next to Putin`s home turf. Then we will see who has real balls.
Richard @94, I was with you in the first part of your spiel - but you lost me at the end. Putin is definitely making a statement that Russia is not to be dissed by the Western powers any longer. They have built up a very nice economy as well as a strong military, and as many have pointed out, they control the reaources nheeded by Europe - namely the gas and oil.
So, instead of slapping Georgia around a bit, I think Vlad is making a bold move now and will try to reannex Georgia to ensure total control of the pipelines. Who's gonna' stop him??
Europe is afraid of being chilly come winter and the US has no leverage whatsoever - not even military. If Cheney does what you recommend - make a strong statement - by bombing, I presume, what will he attack?? Russian tanks in Georgia? Russia itself? And you really think Vlad would run home with his tail between his legs? No, he'll take back Georgia and control of those pipelines and then we'll see who's in the driver's seat.
Kristol, Cheney and the rest of the neo-cons will have to eat crow....instead of cake.
Check out the brain on Marc:
"Isn't this why we have an intelligence community? The National Reconaissance Office has the capacity to task its satellites to photograph the region; did they, in this case? The Baku-Ceyhan oil pipeline runs right through the region; isn't that reason enough to keep close tabs on developments? Did U.S. policy-makiers not get any advance notice of Russian/Georgian troop movements? And who was in charge of the Saakashvili portfolio? Did the U.S. warn him against sending tanks into South Ossetia? If not, why not?
Are all of our IC resources tied up in the Middle East?"
http://marcambinder.theatlantic.com/archives/2008/08/russias_decision_to...
They dropped the ball again.
moonsha @ 103:
The issue of national integrity vs. self determination have been the kindling for war for almost a century. In principle, I support the breakaway provinces independence. The rest of the Georgians would probably be happy to be rid of them. But the region has valuable natural resources........
America has a habit of choosing friends badly. Reagan and Bush 41 supported the mujahadeen. "Helluva job, Brownie... er, Ron."
From Kos:
Invading Sovereign Countries: It's OK if You're Bush
by mcjoan
Mon Aug 11, 2008 at 06:40:50 PM PDT
Bush today:
"Russia has invaded a sovereign neighbouring state.... Such an action is unacceptable in the 21st century.... We have no doubts about it. This is a deliberate attempt to destroy an entire country and change the regime."
Right. Invading a sovereign state to destroy a country and change the regime isn't acceptable in the 21st century. Good to know.
Which leads us to precisely the problem, as expressed today by Charles King, Russia expert and professor in the School of Foreign Service and the Department of Government at Georgetown University, in an interivew with Glenn Greenwald:
Given the US's precarious condition militarily - where we're occupying two countries, fighting two wars - versus Russia's strength, and then you look at the aspect of soft power or moral credibility, there's that exchange in the UN where the US ambassador to the UN said that Russia had intended 'regime change' in Georgia, to which the Russian ambassador replied that that was an American concept, obviously referencing Iraq. Even if the US were inclined to do more, and Georgia's expectations of what we would do had been accurate, what would really our options be to intervene in any meaningful way in this conflict in a way that would influence Russia?
The U.S. has no moral authority, Bush's having "looked into Putin's soul" notwithstanding.
Saakashvili keeps bringing up the '68 invasion of Czechoslovakia. There are parallels. 1968 was an election year and the American president wasn't running for re-election. Oh, yeah, and America was mired in an unjustified and well-nigh globally condemned war of aggression which left it without moral suasion on the international stage.
21 General_Rennenkampf Says: L.A. Confidential @ 18:
General_Rennenkampf @ 11:
They won’t invade Russia.
Our troops are tired, pissed off, worn out. Russia’s military is fresh, prepared, ready. Of course they haven’t been off to foreign lands plundering countries for rich boy millionaires, idiots, and chicken hawks who work for oil companies either.
No, they’ve been butchering the hell out of Chechnya instead.
Russia’s nuclear capacity is their main deterrent right now, not the rest of their army.
Yeah, that's it. Not the fact there's no U.S. military that could be commited. Gee, that wouldn't weigh into it, would it? Russia will do what it wants over there & the U.S. can complain all they want. At least the Russians are invading a country causing trouble on their border. Not like invading Iraq after 911 across half the f'in world.
Idiot Bush speaking of disproportianate response needs look in a mirror. Attacks another country for no reason. He has no right to speak.
Mc Cain is morphing from lovable old doddering fool to maniacal Neo con asshole in a hurry isn't he ? Whens his honorable campaign start again ? Obama could get down and dirty to respond and wouldn't even be on the same scale as MC Dumbfuck.
Che's Lounge @ 106:
Yea,
Somebody tell Krazy Krystal that the soviets & nazis were not pals & certainly never were in any axis together.
What hole is KK gettin' his stuff from these days. Or better yet, what hole is he shootin' it into? He used to just smoke that shit.
Listening to Bush tell Bob Costas that the world was blindsided in "Games to promote peace, and then have war" was just bizarro to hear. As if 6 years of his war crimes in Iraq never happened
I just had a notion. Since Condi just got back from a trip to Georgia before this nonsense started is it possible that, given that she'll be unemployed in a few months, she's trying to reinvigorate her teaching credentials by re-creating the Soviet Union?
Somebody please tell me that's not it?
Richard Peterson @ 101:
You know what is ignorant? The fact that you were proposing declaring war on Russia in order to help a two bit despot...
Steve E @ 108:
No, I am not a hawk, but I'm not an ostrich either. And the Missle Defece System is as BS a term as Compassionate Conservative. To Putin, it is an offensive move, as it would give us the ability to strike with no fear of retaliation (if it worked.)
Actually, a quick strike might give him pause to wonder if it were already up and operational.
A strike on the blockading ships, rather than a strike on air bases within Russia, makes the point that we stand by our allies without violating the territorial integrity of Russia, so it would not justify a retaliation. Putin has made his point by overrunning half of Georgia. He can now pull back to the borders of the breakaway provinces.
L.A. Confidential @ 79:
We can't even pay for our own wars anymore, we have to finance them 28 years of trickle-down, supply-side Reaganomics has turned us into the largest debtor nation in history. We have record debt, deficit, trade debt and deficit, personal debt at an all time high, the dollar at record lows and the proposals from the punditry like Kudlow, Samuelson, Glassman, etc. is-more of the same.
maherahrar @ 114:
As I've written elsewhere, our Air Force is rested and fully capable, and we don't need to invade Russia to make our point.
Hilarious to hear Bush claiming the high moral ground on anything. Those days are long over.
olo @ 116:
Um... ever heard of the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact? The Nazis and the Soviets were allied for the purpose of attacking Poland.
ummm...what am i missing here?
we cant invade russia...they still have the bomb
we cant make economic sanctions against russia, or else hurt our economy even worse than it is now
we have been funneling arms to the georgians for years...its part of the deal to get them to assist in iraq
we have a failed president with a failed foreign policy that has led up to this mess
but this is what the neocons wanted
a return to the cold war
back to a military economy where the military industrial complex holds sway
and what was the chimp in chief doing when all this was happening? he was checking out the asses on the gals of the beach volley ball team...fucking perv
and what is still the biggest story in america? that john edwards got his dick sucked by a woman who is less attractive than his wife...cuz the dude was horney
8 fucking years
8 fucking years to bring us back 20
8 fucking years and we cant impeach the criminal who sits in the wh
Did I miss something? McSame wants to launch the fourth GOP war but we haven't taken Tehran yet, right?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PdJUCU1UH2w
how much of the lobby money georgia is paying scheuneman is trickling to mccain?
Richard Peterson @ 122:
As I've written elsewhere, our Air Force is rested and fully capable, and we don't need to invade Russia to make our point.
Yes, but given geography, the United States will have to use someone's airspace (Turkey) to get there. Remember how the request worked out for the invasion of Iraq?
And conducting airstrikes is not likely to be the best avenue for getting matters to settle down.
You've acknowledged that Saakashvili hasn't made the most brilliant move. Should the United States be dragged into hostilities with Russia because of some covert agreement between Bush/Cheney and the Georgian government?
If this is about giving Russia a bloody nose (and not getting one ourselves... until MUCH later) there are many other ways of doing that far more covertly and cheaply.
Demosthenes @ 124:
A non-aggression pact is a hell of a lot different than an Axis.
Although, the average American wouldn't even know what an axis is...
Richard Peterson @ 122:
Dude put the Tom Clancy novel down... those softcovers ain't good for the brain.
Tyler Durden @ 130:
Ha! An "Axis of Evil"(tm) actually doesn't need any relations whatsoever between the members. There's no legal definition of an Axis.
Look I'm not trying to defend Krystal - but there was a tacit alliance between the Soviets and the Nazis in 1940.
Why does McCain's bs along with Obama's and shrubbies rhetoric sound familiar? Oh yeah, in late 2001 early 2002 I was perusing the PNAC web site to learn what they were about. One of their articles talked about Russia being an enemy and the need to use military action against them in our battle for resources and to show our dominance as a world power. Neo-nutsy's are so f'ing stupid.
Different anonymous @118:
"I just had a notion. Since Condi just got back from a trip to Georgia before this nonsense started is it possible that, given that she’ll be unemployed in a few months, she’s trying to reinvigorate her teaching credentials by re-creating the Soviet Union?
Somebody please tell me that’s not it?"
Hahah! Best thing I've heard all day, and sadly true. The neocons (or as I said in another thread, we should be calling them the Reagan-Retreads, or something) have been begging the Soviet Union to reconstitute itself, so that their lives will have some meaning again. Truth is, all of those people were HIGHLIY disappointed when the Soviet Union fell apart, and they'd just love to see it get back together again. And it won't matter if it has anything to do with communism this time, just as long as they have another eastern european superpower to play with.
But as for the actual details of Condi's visit. I'm sure this is going to turn into another 'Saddam moment' where Saakashvili will claim that she winked and twitched at him when he hinted at sending the Georgian army into South Ossetia.
Hey Republican liars/murderers/adulterers/child molesters, ever heard of a little country called IRAQ? Look it up when you have a chance, I think that will go a long way to explaining why no one in the world gives a shit what we say about anything anymore.
This goes so far beyond 'hypocrisy' it needs a new name.
His speech sounded like a teenager's (home-school) essay from Conservapedia. He is so dull, I had to turn it off.
I'm sure he's so busy with his campaigning, he hasn't a real clue about whats going on. If Iraq is any idicatioon of how clued in these neocons are, we're in for a bumpy ride. Does anyone really want to add messing with Russia to America's "foreign policy" (blunders)? Or is that "foreign policy" FIASCO.
"That's it in a Nutjob!"
Anyone remember Israels' atttack on Lebanon two years ago? Our conservative gov't here in Canada supported in wholeheartedly. I believe Condi Rice called it "the birth pangs of a new middle east". Oh I forgot, Israel is a democracy just like brave little Georgia!
Nicole,
Oh wow, the McCain camp took some historical facts from the wikipedia site for McCain to use during his speech. No original thought was taken, but just facts. Again, wow, good catch Nicole. McCain can't get one by you.
Ain't it funny how invading other sovereign countries can erode the USA's moral authority so that, when Russia invades a country, the rest of the world has a hard time taking US bleating about it seriously?
This whole thing smells of USA meddling in Russia's backyard with oil (once again!) as our "national interest." Putin was complaining that shrub flew in Georgian troops from Iraq in USA aircraft. Thanks to shotgun and the neoconvicts we are once more involved in something we never should have been. HTF did they think Russia would feel about Georgia being a member of NATO? Of course Putin now wants to get more involved with Cuba.
What idiots!
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20080811/wl_mideast_afp/georgiarussiaunrestu...
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2008-08-04-putin_N.htm
Jeezus this speech sounds like a 4th grade history report. I couldn't finish it either. Pretty scary.
American Values @ 127:
Frighteningly excellent
Demosthenes @ 132:
An "Axis of Evil" is what a leader of this country with a cognitive level of a fifth grader came up with, the insulting part is that it was actually legitimized.
An axis of nations/power implies relations between the members, naturally... it took Americans to overload the meaning of a concept they did not have even passing familiarity with.
And no, there was no "tacit alliance" between Russia and Germany. There was a non-aggression pact, which is not even close to be an alliance. It was the 30's version of mutual assured destruction, it would be the same as claiming that during the cold world the USA and USSR had a tacit alliance.
Krystol is an idiot, you should have better things than trying to polish that turd of statement.
chris [not the troll] @ 135:
"Brass balls"? Or is it too male-centric?
What about "shamelessness"?
DMS @ 140:
Wow, sorry to burst your babble... but there is this weird misconception that the USA has had a "moral authority" ever.
We have had military might, do not confound fear with respect or adulation... the only reason why people around the world paid attention about what we had to say is because we carried/carry the big stick. Now, put another heavy weight in the fray and every body knows we are a paper tiger.
Tyler Durden @ 41:
The fighting that erupted in the last few days has more to do with the oil pipeline in the Caspian sea area and the United States' push to put missiles in Poland as part of the so-called missile defense shield. The U.S. didn't like seeing the Soviets placing missiles in Cuba, why would Russia accept such action by the U.S. now?
This was bound to happen. It was just the last straw.
read kristol's article, the guy must be fucking insane
"russia is aggressive, china despotic, iran messianis, but none are as dangerous as the twentieth century totalitarian states"
russia is POWERFUL enough to destroy the human race with a couple of button pushes, 16000 nukes is about as poweful as it gets. do any of these nutjobs realize that antagonizing russia could result in the extinction of the human race??? if they did would they care?
You can bet your butt that the United states , Cheney and his fellow ( neocon )madmen have a hand this , meddling in affairs we have no business in and stirring up trouble in the region which we have been doing since the collapse of the Soviet Union . Georgia with US backing started this , not Russia . The breakaway region that Georgia ( not Russia ) invaded and tried to gain control of are regions with Russian populations not Georgians . To read or listen to the US propaganda machine , western media and right wing jackasses like George Will and Bill Kristol , Russia is the evil invader , the bad guy once again , not true at all . And the hypocrisy is almost unbelievable , we invade and occupy Iraq and are still occupying Iraq trying to set up a puppet government to gain control of Iraqi oil , Russia basically defends their people and their territory and we condemn Russia for their actions ! Who are the bad guys ? Sadly we are , the good old stars and stripes US of A . Just a sign of things to come if the American people are ignorant and stupid enough to elect McCain as president and it's absolutely obvious by now that we are that ignorant and stupid .
admiralkrunch @ 148:
Either they are truly that stupid, or they have no short term memory... because they seem to not remember that whole cold war thingie...
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