McCain, judgment, and a response to the attacks of 9/11
By Steve Benen Sunday Aug 17, 2008 7:30amThe NYT’s David Kirkpatrick had a very strong piece yesterday on John McCain’s foreign policy worldview, his embrace of neoconservatism, and his response to the attacks of 9/11. It applies a little more scrutiny than McCain is probably accustomed to receiving.
[By the afternoon of Sept. 11, 2001], Mr. McCain, the Vietnam War hero and famed straight talker of the 2000 Republican primary, had taken on a new role: the leading advocate of taking the American retaliation against Al Qaeda far beyond Afghanistan. In a marathon of television and radio appearances, Mr. McCain recited a short list of other countries said to support terrorism, invariably including Iraq, Iran and Syria.
“There is a system out there or network, and that network is going to have to be attacked,” Mr. McCain said the next morning on ABC News. “It isn’t just Afghanistan,” he added, on MSNBC. “I don’t think if you got bin Laden tomorrow that the threat has disappeared,” he said on CBS, pointing toward other countries in the Middle East.
Within a month he made clear his priority. “Very obviously Iraq is the first country,” he declared on CNN. By Jan. 2, Mr. McCain was on the aircraft carrier Theodore Roosevelt in the Arabian Sea, yelling to a crowd of sailors and airmen: “Next up, Baghdad!”
Just to clarify, by October 2001, McCain was already a cheerleader for invading Iraq. This was his reflexive response to the terrorism perpetrated by al Qaeda.
It’s an anecdote that reminds us of so many questions surrounding McCain, including his temperament, his judgment, and his “hothead” personality.
“He has the personality of a fighter pilot: when somebody stings you, you want to strike out,” said retired Gen. John H. Johns, a former friend and supporter of Mr. McCain who turned against him over the Iraq war. “Just like the American people, his reaction was: show me somebody to hit.”
And while that may strike some as appealing, the problem with McCain’s approach is its indiscriminate attitude — he looks for somebody to hit before he actually thinks about the merit and/or consequences.
Looking back at this period also reminds us of just how wrong McCain has been.
While pushing to take on Saddam Hussein, Mr. McCain also made arguments and statements that he may no longer wish to recall. He lauded the war planners he would later criticize, including Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld and Vice President Dick Cheney. (Mr. McCain even volunteered that he would have given the same job to Mr. Cheney.) He urged support for the later-discredited Iraqi exile Ahmad Chalabi’s opposition group, the Iraqi National Congress, and echoed some of its suspect accusations in the national media. And he advanced misleading assertions not only about Mr. Hussein’s supposed weapons programs but also about his possible ties to international terrorists, Al Qaeda and the Sept. 11 attacks. […]
[A]fter Mr. Bush declared he would hold responsible any country condoning terrorism, Mr. McCain called his leadership “magnificent” and his national security team the strongest “that has ever been assembled.” A few weeks later, Larry King of CNN asked whether he would have named Mr. Rumsfeld and Colin L. Powell to a McCain cabinet. “Oh, yes, and Cheney,” Mr. McCain answered, saying he, too, would have offered Mr. Cheney the vice presidency.
Even during the heat of the war in Afghanistan, Mr. McCain kept an eye on Iraq. To Jay Leno in mid-September, Mr. McCain said he believed “some other countries” had assisted Osama bin Laden, going on to suggest Iraq, Syria and Iran as potential suspects. In October 2001, when an Op-Ed page column in The New York Times speculated that Iraq, Russia or some other country might bear responsibility for that month’s anthrax mailings, Mr. McCain interrupted a question about Afghanistan from David Letterman on that night’s “Late Show.” “The second phase is Iraq,” Mr. McCain said, adding, “Some of this anthrax may — and I emphasize may — have come from Iraq.” […]
[W]hen the Czech government said that before the attacks, one of the 9/11 hijackers had met in Prague with an Iraqi intelligence official, Mr. McCain seized the report as something close to a smoking gun. “The evidence is very clear,” he said three days later, in an Oct. 29 television interview. (Intelligence agencies quickly cast doubt on the meeting.)
On Friday, McCain told the NYT, “I believe voters elect their leaders based on their experience and judgment — their ability to make hard calls, for instance, on matters of war and peace. It’s important to get them right.”
That would sound more compelling if McCain hadn’t been so wrong for so long.
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Because only sheer, aggressive, barbarian irrationality can protect us in our times of need?
He was "on board" for the invasion of Iraq because he was told to be.
A plan orchestrated well before W was selected president.
9/11 McCain was right!
Didn't you know? Never question a POW!
*FYI Saddleback: McCain wasn't in the cone of silence.
McCain's Camp plays POW card:
“The insinuation from the Obama campaign that John McCain, a former prisoner of war, cheated is outrageous,” Ms. Wallace said.
Dont think before you act
Dont think
John THE BUSH REPUBLICAN McCain..... can we all shout it from the rafters!!!!
I agree with Charlie@#2 completely. George W. Bush KNEW an attack on Iraq would happen, just like he knew the fix was in to install him and his boss Cheney as President.
While americans are sick of the war in iraq, it is very discouraging to see how the public, the news anchors and the pundits are gleefully ginning up for a contest with the russian bear. Now is the time to see how the big lies about ronald reagan bankrupting and causing the disintegration of the u.s.s.r. through the mega-arms race will come home to roost. I have become cynical enough to wonder if john mccain's buddy sheunemann (spelling?) urged, in any way, georgia to confront the russians in south ossetia, so that mccain could ride in on his horse, guns a-blazin'.
El Cid @ 1:
Nope... because only sheer, aggressive, barbarian irrationality can protect us in our times of greed. I'm just sayin'...
Anyone else get a laugh from the fact that in the days after 9/11, McCain went on a promotional tour of Letterman, Leno, and Larry King to keep himself in the spotlight. Talk about your political celebrities. What a hypocrite.
El Cid @ 1:
that about sums it up!
JerryO @ 5:
Yep... just as you and Charlie said. This is how it worked.
The Candidate We Still Don't Know (McCain)
With the exception of McCain’s imprisonment in Vietnam, every aspect of this profile in courage is inaccurate or defunct.
“McCain frequently forgets key elements of policies, gets countries’ names wrong, forgets things he’s said only hours or days before and is frequently just confused.” Most Americans still don’t know it is precisely for this reason that the McCain campaign has now shut down the press’s previously unfettered access to the candidate on the Straight Talk Express.
cobsjo @ 3:
POW = batman fight bubble, circa 1970
I thought this comment about the weekend forum was very interesting:
"For this to have been the case that means the this so called "Toss" to see who would go first was done long before the broadcast and you have to ask why? Why was it at all necessary do that? They should have been required to show up before the broadcast then the toss and then escorted to the cone of silence. The fact that one we're told otherwise and two it was done this way at all tells me that the whole thing was done to favour Mccain."
Even a moron could tell that McCain knew the questions ahead of time. Geez, he was almost giddy with glee...begging to answer about the Supreme Court.
Do not expect McCain to have a clear recollection of past statements or mis-statements.
An article from the ABC news website on McCain's use of the prescription drug Ambien, a prescription sleep aid:
McCain's Ambien Use - A Security Threat? Drug Also Known To Have Memory-Related Side-Effects
Most Americans still don’t know that McCain forgets key elements of policies, gets countries’ names wrong, forgets things he’s said only hours or days before and is frequently just confused.
Whenever I have seen a toss of the coin used, both sides were present. I think we need to know: who tossed the coin? why was mcshame allowed to be late? was Obama present when the coin was tossed? why was the coin tossed without both sides involved present? has Rev. Warren lied to us again?
Repugnants it's time to come to grips with the facts your anointed one is a BUFFOON
It is time now for OUR party to come together. Enough with this catharsis shit. Enough wasting time within our convention to stroke egos, and wipe noses. Enough is enough. It's time for everyone to grow up and figure out who the REAL enemies are.
It is time to talk to the American People. It is time to remind the American People that it is DEMOCRATS that created the middle class. It is LIBERALS that got woman the right to vote, blacks the right to vote, created Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, tuition assistance, unemployment insurance, etc. etc. It is time to remind the country which party has TWICE bankrupted this country in the last 30 years, and which party rescued our economy, our currency and our standard of living.
I'm already sick of Mr. "Drill Here, Drill Now" and I hope more reporters drill HIM, especially on the Keating 5 scandal and his ignorance of geography.
Pastor Rick should have had a dry-erase board up with a blank map and asked him to fill in the names of a bunch of countries he wants to invade. That woulod have made for good viewing.
So, to sum up, McCain is as juvenile and immature as Bush. Great, just what we need!
The world does not need a senile fuck-up fly boy leading it. Any more than it needed a spoiled drunken frat boy leading it since 2000.
McCain campaign manager Rick Davis writes NBC to complain that Andrea Mitchell reported on the suggestion
"that McCain may not have been in the cone of silence and may have had some ability to overhear what the questions were to Obama. He seemed so well prepared,"
Also, McCain's camp confirms he wasn't in the cone of silence, though there was no TV in the car.
(There were, presumably, blackberries; though in fact, no evidence has emerged that McCain had the (obvious!) questions early, and Warren, not McCain, made the claim that he was in a sealed room.)
john j @ 11:
Seems to me he's lied about everything about his imprisonment except its length. If he had been an enlisted man who collaborated the way McStain the officer did, he'd still be in Leavenworth.
I've also heard/read, and do not mind repeating, even if it is apocryphal, that the 'torture' he complains of having endured consisted maninly of the NViet doctors repairing his injuries without anesthesia.
There's a pretty damning piece on McStains War-Time valor at Counterpunch.
The Democrats need to really come together NOW. We have too many egos running in different directions. Bill Clinton could be of so much help right now in coming out and putting the repugs in their place but Bill is too busy with his own agenda of getting Hillary in the White House and he can't be bothered with helping bring the party together. There are still a lot of Americans who admire Clinton and still think his years as president were some of the best years America has seen. If he could just put aside his anger long enough to look at what is happening today. If Clinton keeps up his rampage against Obama he will only further damage his legacy and can never be of any help to the party again. We need desparately someone to step forward and fight mcshame and the repugs and I believe Clinton could do this effectively if he doesn't wait too long. We cannot let the repugs continually tear down Obama with lies and deceit. Time is running out and we may never get another chance.
McCain is laughable. If he makes it to the white house, heaven forbid, I'll still be laughing.
Charles @ 2:
agreed, but shouldn't a man who would be president be a tad smarter than the rest of us???
Liberal AND Proud @ 18:
Morning, L&P--
You say that as though it were a GOOD thing...If i may say so, you seem to be laboring under a misperception: That those things are or were GOOD for "Murka. In reality, they are huge drags on the economy. The rich would be SO much richer if there were nothing called universal suffrage, etc.
Notice now his war rhetoric is all about the "magical" surge (well, before the Georgia/Russia incident). He has been of late running around saying Obama didn't support the surge, how magnificent the surge has worked, and how he and he alone pushed Bush into creating the successful surge, and since he was so right on the surge and Obama so wrong he is positioning himself as the man who won the Iraq war. Nice way to distract the public from the clearly wrong and disastrous policies and issues he took before the Iraq war.
Being a Prisoner of War does not automatically a hero make.
2 Charles said: A plan orchestrated well before W was selected president.......
Absolutely! For certain, it was on Bush's drawing board as early as October 1996. And possibly even sooner -- like immediately after he became gov. of Texas in 1994.
El Cid @ 1:
If you did not see it take an hour and watch Bill Moyers Journal from Aug. 15 ...it is online.
Guest was Retired Col. Andrew J. Bacvich . It was very very powerful and timely.
.....I agree with Charlie@#2 completely. George W. Bush KNEW an attack on Iraq would happen, just like he knew the fix was in to install him and his boss Cheney as President......
Absolutely, both Bush AND Cheney knew as soon as the snow was on the ground in Billings -- October 27, 1996. That would be Billings, Montana -- Cheney's state.
If anybody has any doubts about snow being on the ground in Montana around Holloween 1996, check the weather report.
SMN @ 27:
It may in fact be a higher blasphemy to question The Surge (TM) than anything regarding John McCain (which means you question his ServiceToHisCountry and his TimeAsAPOW).
The Surge (TM) was the single most transformatative event / strategy / supernatural happening ever to have visited the surface of the Earth since Jesus and Ronald Reagan created the Grand Canyon some 6,000 years ago.
How Dare You Question The Surge (TM)???
Good thang it didn't happen on 7-11
Southland corporation would have to change the name of their major chain.
liberAL @ 23:
Excellent point!
This post does an excellent job of pointing out how McCain believes that terrorists should be rooted out by military means. It emphasizes how McCain wishes to take the fight beyond Afghanistan. But what this post does not state is how erroneous that strategy is. Britain's MI5 thwarted a terrorist plot to blow up 10 jumbo jets over the North Atlantic in August 2006. That was done not through military means but through the cooperation of the police working with intelligence agencies around the world. What this post fails to mention is that Barack Obama wishes to shift approximately three brigades from Iraq to Afghanistan. This, as with other uses of United States foreign policy, is an example of overkill. It is like sending in an elephant to crush a flea.
Obama is in full agreement with McCain that the way to deal with terrorism is by using the military. This is also the best way to provide new recruits for the terrorists, with the United States doing an excellent job of helping the cause. As writer and professor of history at Boston College Andrew Bacevich recently stated on NOW, neither Obama nor McCain seem to realize that using the military to solve problems ends up creating far more chaos and disaster than it does in finding an amelioration to what is causing and creating terrorism. Terrorists are criminals and should be hunted down and caught by the local police and other intelligence agencies instead of the destructive force of the military. That little flag that is sewn on the uniform of an American soldier has caused infinitely more harm than it has caused good and neither Obama nor McCain seem to be cognizant of this obvious truth.
"On Friday, McCain told the NYT, “I believe voters elect their leaders based on their experience and judgment — their ability to make hard calls, for instance, on matters of war and peace. It’s important to get them right.”
That would sound more compelling if McCain hadn’t been so wrong for so long."
It's still very compelling and the most important reason we can't elect McCain. I'm still wondering why I knew that Iraq didn't have WMD's and he didn't. I mean the information was available and far more credible than what the Bush administration. Nobody who voted for this war has any excuse for doing so - that's republicans and democrats. They should have known.
War isn't the only important thing going on but having McCain start or provoke more of them will be a nightmare nobody can imagine.
Judgment my ass. McCains so called judgment let him vote to go into Iraq.
And I have to ask, Since when did getting CAPTURED make you some kind of expert on how to win wars? What kind of mind can except that?
The so called "news" networks say that people are tired of hearing about Obama? McCain is the most boring, bad prompter reader around and is boring the crap out of me.
And about the crew that is in the whitehouse now, I hope the get similar treatment as Musharif is getting. Allow them to leave to say .... Guantanamo maybe.
Clips from the upcoming mcgramps convention:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=frqQ6rPmnIc&feature=related
Centrocitta @ 31:
Cheney's people knew all about it. They wouldn't have risked telling the Chimp. Bioooosh sitting stunned in that Florida classroom was the most authentic think about that day. He was truly stunned and in shock.
But Cheney, Addington, Libby? Those guys knew everything except the exact dates and flight numbers. Intelligence was (and is) Cheney's portfolio in the Cabinet. Of course he knew. Those three--Cheney, Addington, Libby--are traitors and deserve the traitor's fate.
Charles @ 2:
It was amazing how convenient 911 was for the NeoCons.
Almost as if they allowed, or even planned for it to happen.
Just putting it out there. I live in New York. I see the World Trade Center Hole virtually every day on my way to work.
It's still just a big hole. Almost as if they're trying to hold off of filling it in so dumb tourists from middle America can still look at it 7 YEARS LATER and say '911' '911''911', like it was some Gregorian chant.
It just had to be said.
McCain's idiocy has been on full display with regards to the current Georgia conflict, as well. This statement alone should disqualify him for the presidency:
http://www.jedreport.com/2008/08/mccains-confusi.html
After threatening to restart the Cold War and declaring "we're all Georgians now," the doddering old fool admits he has no idea who actually started the conflict in the first place.
john j @ 11:
Regarding McCain,
It doesn't take much courage to be shot down because your an awful pilot... then sing like a song bird when you're in prison.
He also gave anti American radio addresses.
Just give the man his walker, and show him to the door.
woody, tokin librul @ 39:
woody, tokin librul @ 39:
(MODS: Not how restrained I was. I never mentioned "heads on pikes," the guillotine or anything...)
Oh, and check the weather for Minneapolis, MN while you're at it. Snow there too.
Bill in Chicago @ 41:
He hadn't received his faxed talking points yet. Give Grandpa a break. He's a war hero, not a techno geek.
McSame was clearly wrong on the "War on Terror" response to 9/11. In an interview by Bill Moyers on his program last week, Col. Andrew J. Bacevich, USA ret. and author of the book The Limits of Power argued very clearly that the only way to defeat the radical islamist terror network was by the equivalent of good police work not by war, especially war in the model of Desert Storm. I haven't read the book yet, but I plan to ASAP. Bacevich makes a series of very cogent points on the state of the country, our politics and our lack of military might now that we are tied up in two wars which seem unwinnable with our present strategy.
I was living in the Mexican interior when 9-11 happened. But I knew IMMEDIATELY that there was going to be some trouble in Iraq!
Numinous @ 40:
notice how fast building 7 was rebuilt! cant have people asking why it went down allso in the same manor! minus the aircraft!
Centrocitta @ 31:
Um-m, Cheney's state is Wyoming - but there could have been snow on the ground there, too.
Regarding the article about McCain: it is a good reminder about his entire life, a life that has been entirely about the Military. He was born into it, raised in it, was forced to be in it, and his brain cannot function on any other level.
It is entirely clear that the only solution McCain is capable providing for any kind of problem facing America is bomb, bomb, bomb ________________(insert name of foreign adversary.
He has been programmed to respond this way for his whole life. Some have previously referred to him as the Manchurian Candidate - except that his brainwashing occurred right in his own country; his own family. He's a dangerous man.
Jerry @ 47:
Jerry
My comments at #35 echo what you have written. One wonders if the Democrats and the Republicans will ever learn that the United States should not be using its military to enforce its will upon third world countries.
THE SURGE is worth a discussion....
in the course of making 100 decisions, even the GOP will on occasion have a circumstance which works. i don't believe that THE SURGE is this, BUT to be fair... if it works DOES THAT MEAN THE DECISION WAS RIGHT ? ? ?
The war was WRONG. IT WAS WRONG WHEN WE WERE "WINNING".... it was wrong when we "cut through the Iraqi troops like a knife through butter"... it was wrong to STRIKE FIRST... it was wrong to MANUFACTURE INFORMATION... it was wrong to DRUMBEAT THE MEDIA TO WAR...
WIN or LOSE...... it was WRONG
the fact that during "the surge" there are more or less deaths... does NOT make the surge RIGHT...
IT IS A VERY REPUBLICAN THING TO THINK THAT A RESULT CAN MAKE RETROACTIVE MAKE IT "RIGHT"...... so much bullshit !!!!!
cop shoots a guy..... guy HAPPENS to have a gun in his pocket.....
we strike an UNARMED nation..... nation (doesn't even have WMD) is NOT ARMED.....
you would have to be a moron the size of John THE BUSH REPUBLICAN McCain to think this is a good model
Erroll @ 35:
[Deleted. Abusive. Site Monitor]
Dr. Matt @ 53:
is crap like this nesasary , seems to me like one ought to be able to post thier opinion without being attacked by a doctor!
.....Um-m, Cheney’s state is Wyoming - but there could have been snow on the ground there, too......
Yes, you're correct. But the two states do share a common border. At any rate, all three collaborating states -- Montana, Wyoming, and Texas -- share a cowboy mentality and that's why they picked New York City for the attack and got away with it.
LOOSE CANNON McCAIN
tyree @ 54:
Tyree, as in any argument you can tell the intelligence of the parties, those without words use expletives. When they don't agree with your opine, they just attack with slurs. And I don't believe this guys is a doctor anymore than I believe that frogs can fly.
☻Bangkok Bob ☺ @ 57:
Frogs can't fly? How do those little tree frogs get into the trees? Snark!
But still, as for McGramps judgment I still say,
Judgment my ass. McCains so called judgment let him vote to go into Iraq.
And I have to ask, Since when did getting CAPTURED make you some kind of expert on how to win wars? What kind of mind can except that?
This idea of an undisciplined hothead was also evident in his reaction to Russia's incursion beyond South Ossetia. Although Russia was as wrong as we where in Iraq, he seemed as if he was ready to go to war with the Russians, with what assets know one knows.
As far as the military vs. "police" approach toward terrorism, was it not the conservative Rand Corp who came out recently with a long study saying the best approach was the law enforcement type? I don't think we need to be either/or in every case, but as a general policy, against an asymmetrical enemy, your best bet is combined law enforcement of all countries, with occasional special ops when needed. But nobody listens to current civilians, what do we know?
"Hate to break it to you, Ray. There are no cowboys." Generation Kill
......Cheney’s people knew all about it. They wouldn’t have risked telling the Chimp. Bioooosh sitting stunned in that Florida classroom was the most authentic think about that day. He was truly stunned and in shock......
I don't agree with this. Bush KNEW. Afterall, wern't those "terrorists" taking flying lessons in Florida, little Fratellino's state?
An excerpt from the book "Present Dangers." This is the PNAC book (their directive) which was published in 2000 well prior to the presidential election. Dick Cheney was still CEO of Halliburton at the time and many of the essays were written between 1997 and early 2000. Original members of PNAC included David Frum, co-founders Robert Kagan and Bill Kristol, Richard Perle, Dan Quayle, and Dick Cheney.
Essay from "Present Dangers":
"Iraq: Saddam Unbound," by Richard Perle (the floating fat man).
"If we do not develop a strategy for removing Saddam now, we may not be able to do so later. Once he is possession of sophisticated weapons of mass destruction, our options will have narrowed considerably."
"If the next administration is to protect America's interests in the Gulf and help bring about the conditions for long-term stability in the region, it must formulate a comprehensive political and military strategy for bringing down Saddam and his regime."
This particular argument Perle writes is nothing more than a directive argument when the plan to invade Iraq was already in place. It is an argument for the building of support PRIOR to the election of that pre-planned invasion. Of course this false marketing plan later included the fabricated addition that Saddam HAD weapons of mass destruction.
Paul O'Neill, who was W's first Treasury Secretary, claimed that during the very first W cabinet meeting in the first week of February, 2001, the number one topic was coming up with a detailed plan for a POST invasion Iraq.
The Project for a New American Century is a think-tank founded by members of the Council on Foreign Relations. The neocons are a fixated component of the second Bush administration. People blame the neocons for this and that when, in actuality, they are nothing more than a front group for the CFR. The CFR is the front group for the New World Order. This group controls religions, they control banking, they control industry, they control the World Bank, the WHO, the WTO. They are secretly attempting to undermine the sovereignty of all nations, including ours. They are attempting to bring about the North American Union.
These people have plans within plans. They almost never tell the truth publicly about any subject. They are marketing and selling manipulation, fear, control and death. They constantly use Machiavellian deceit theory and Orwellian doublespeak to market their mandate and attack their rivals.
In all likelihood these people cannot be stopped. They control both sides of our political process (including CFR members Obama and McGaffe), the judges, the military and the police.
You are nothing more than a slave on a slave planet. You are simply a resource to these people. To be manipulated at every turn. To be used, brainwashed, frenzied, made apathetic with various and technological methods, and tossed onto the trash heap when finished.
☻Bangkok Bob ☺ @ 57:
Except that "Erroll" is a republican operative.
If Obama had ditched his wife after she lost her figure for a better looking beer heiress, been nailed in a banking scandal, called his wife a c#%t in front of media members or if his wife had been caught stealing from a charity to support her drug habit would anyone have any hope for him ? But Cranky McCain's moral fibre as unravelled as it is gets very little scrutiny. I am also wondering if anyone noticed Katie Couric in the twilight of her career on tv last night trying to blame Valerie Plam for being outed. She even gasped at Joe and said you are still LIVID ! as if he should be pver it by now. When did she decide to whore for the right? I never liked her really but now she's Hannity in drag.
MountainMan23 @ 56:
I like "Loose McCannon." nice meme
rastamick61 @ 64:
I take it as symptomatic of the fundamentally racial/racist tenor of this campaign that a Dim candidate with practically (in comparison) an unblemished record is only at best tied with a corrupt, lying, vicious corpoRat hack of the party which supplied a sitting executive who is generally acknowledged to be the WORST FUCKING PRESIDENT IN HISTORY. I can think of NO other reason for the apparent closeness of it other than Obama's race...
(and the SCUM complicity in the dominant hegemonic narrative)...
The insinuation from the Obama campaign that John McCain, a former prisoner of war, cheated is outrageous
Being a former POW didn't keep him from cheating on his wife; why would it prevent him from cheating in a debate?
37,000 South Ossetian refugees flee to Russia.
Damit, why are all the S.O's running to evil Russia?
"We have seen major mistakes by the West in its policy towards Russia."- Germany
croatoan @ 67:
McStain, like the Booooosh, cheated--took unfair advantage--in everything he's ever done. If he weren't John S. McCain, he'd never have been admitted to, much less graduated from the USNA...and that was just for starters...
......Dick Cheney was still CEO of Halliburton at the time and many of the essays were written between 1997 and early 2000. Original members of PNAC included David Frum, co-founders Robert Kagan and Bill Kristol, Richard Perle, Dan Quayle, and Dick Cheney......
Yes, and I already gave you the date of the snow in Billings. Late October 1996. That's almost 1997, isn't it? And just for the record, let's not confuse October 1996 with October 1966. 1996 is the year of concern!
John McCain was late to work September 11th 2001. As usual. You'd think the voters of Arizona would have fired some elite self proclaimed celebrity that can't show up to work on time years ago.
rain @ 24:
McCane is disgusting. How can you laugh? He is definitely not funny! (although he thinks he is)
Centrocitta @ 70:
"This Account Has Been Suspended
Please contact the billing/support department as soon as possible."
*cough*
Almost a shame I didn't print out the document back when I read some of it, but it was easily 130+ pages or so.
Sure, you get attacked by Saudis, you invade Iraq. Makes perfect sense coming from the guy who thinks there's an Iraq-Pakistan border.
Dr. Matt @ 53:
Erroll is absolutely right.
.....She even gasped at Joe and said you are still LIVID ! as if he should be pver it by now......
Oh no, hell no. He's not over it now. I'm not over it now either.
What Charlie@#2 said: McCain was down with the program. BTW, what's with the snow-on-the-ground-out-west stuff about?
theWalrus @ 63:
Complete BS.
Grandpa, what actual judgment have you ever displayed? Pimping being a POW (your entire political life) is getting quite tired. The MSM whores perpetuate the bullshit myth of this forgetful, lying old fraud as a fucking maverick. McNuts is just the proverbial 20/20 mother fucker who Monday morning quarterbacks any real time decision taking the "post right" position as his, taking tough positions after the fact. Crazy Pandering Lying Johnny has never shown leadership....except with the Keating 5.
Dick Cheney ex-director of CFR talks to David Rockefeller
tyree @ 49:
Yeah. Funny how an administration that has gotten caught in so many lies, killed so many people, fleeced the American public, and spied of every American, fabricated a war and is on the warpath to fabricating two more... can't be accused of maybe.... just maybe... killing a few thousand Americans just to make a few Trillion dollars for a corporate elite.
Funny, that.
Let's be honest. It's more then possible. In was in the financial best interests of those NeoCon traitors.
I mean... it not like there's a history of war profiteering among the Bush family... right?
Prescott Walker Bush: recruited scientists and engineers for the SS during the height of WWII (treason. War profiteering)
George Bush Sr.: Iran Contra, plus more than a few sales of military equipment to U.S. enemies (treason, again. War profiteering.)
George Bush Jr: Fabricated a war, then attacked the wrong country. Not to mention, all the 'no bid' contracts to friends and Business associates of the Bush and Cheney family. (blatant war profiteering. Crimes against humanity)
cobsjo @ 3:
That same former POW cheated on his wife; why is it so unbelievable that he cheated here, too!
Dr. Matt @ 53:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5ba1OKY7Xc
John McGramps McGaffes through a trap set by Tim Russert
77 ysbaddaden Says: Your comment is awaiting moderation.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5ba1OKY7Xc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SEI2UUhVEn4
New Description for a hotel room with TV= A CONE OF SILENCE
How much easier to be Barack Obama, who can't be criticized because a) his time in office is a blip compared to McCain and therefore he has very little record to be criticized, and b) you can never criticize a black man on anything without being labeled racist.
Of course McCain hasn't been right about everything. No elected official could make such a claim - certainly not Nancy Pelosi. But the number and significance of the things McCain has been right about, where he was a lone voice, should not be casually dismissed. Unlike Senator Obama, McCain's views have been shaped by decades of both personal and institutional experience with issues of war and peace.
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Carol @ 86:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KLZKEre3yJ0
When will Obama and his surrogates launch a co-ordinated attack of McCain's judgment?
That's why pilot's don't run wars. The guy running the war just sends them in when he figures out who should be hit.
Norse @ 73:
Norse: If you're talking about the PNAC docs, you can access their 90-page tome
"Rebuilding America's Defenses" at this site/URL:
www.informationclearinghouse.info/pdf/RebuildingAmericasDefenses.pdf
theWalrus @ 63:
Republican operative? Because I dare to point out Obama's less than progressive positions, such as his praise of American capitalism, Ronald Reagan, imperialism and the corporate elite or his support of the Patriot Act and the wiretapping of U.S. citizens or his vote to limit working Americans' ability to recover significant damages from overpowering corporations or his reticence to support gun control or his support of the death penalty? I seriously doubt if a "Republican operative", as you so clumsily state, would condemn Obama because he has supported the Patriot Act, for example.
Perhaps Obama's most egregious statement is what he had told CNN's Candy Crowley last July after Ms. Crowley had asked Obama if "there's anything that's happened in the past 7 1/2 years that the U.S. needs to apologize for in terms of foreign policy"? Obama's response was "No, I don't believe in the U.S. apologizing. As I said, think the war in Iraq was a mistake. We didn't keep our eye on the ball in Afghanistan. But, you know, hindsight is 20/20 , and I'm much more interested in looking forward rather than looking backwards."
Since this refusal to apologize has come from a person who is 50 per cent black, one would have logically thought that he would have had great empathy for those brown people in Afghanistan who have been torn asunder by 500 lb. American bombs dropped by American F-16 planes. But to point this out is to be labeled a "Republican operative." I hardly think that a "Republican operative" would be criticizing Obama for his desire to bomb the hell out of the Afghan people, people who have never threatened anyone in these United States.
It would be most instructive if Obama, despite his ill-advised remarks, were to send letters of apologies to the survivors of:
* 35 Afghan refugees who were bombed by the U.S. for riding in a bus in flight from U.S. assault.
* 160 Afghanis killed in repeated U.S. bombings of the village of Karam.
* 93 people killed when U.S. Ac 130 gun-ships strafed the small farming village Chowkar-Karaz. The Pentagon tried to justify this slaughter by claiming the community was "supporting terrorists."
*Rampant U.S. torture of civilians and non-combatants employed as part of the "war on terror" at the Bagram military base, near Kabul, since the fall of 2001.
* 64 civilians killed when the U.S. bombed a wedding party in eastern Afghanistan in early July of this year, which has been the fourth wedding party blown up by U.S.coalition forces since 2001.
* 19 women who died in the gynecology wing of a Kabul hospital bombed by the U.S. in October of 2001.
* Also included, of course, should be the thousands of other Afghanis who have been ripped apart by U.S. bombs which have been dropped on their villages and whose screams and cries of mercy will not be lamented by the imperial and militarist Obama.
As legal scholar Marjorie Cohn has pointed out, "the invasion of Afghanistan was as illegal as the invasion of Iraq." She has also noted that the "UN Charter says that its members must settle their international disputes by peaceful means, and no nation can use military force except in self-defense or when authorized by the Security Council." As Noam Chomsky stated in 2003, if the U.S. wishes to claim the right to bomb Afghanistan, one then wonders if that same right should extend to Cuba and Nicaragua bombing the United States, since the United States has "provided shelter to well-known terrorists shown to have conducted murderous attacks on the Cuban and Nicaraguan governments."
Bismarck @ 60:
Exactly.
LOOSE CANNON McCAIN
Wikipedia: Loose cannon
LOOSE CANNON McCAIN
A singularly appropriate description, given the devastation he caused when he incinerated 134 of his own men by "flaming out" his fighter jet on the flight deck of an aircraft carrier.
Charles @62:
Unfortunately, there is almost nothing that has happened in our country for almost the last century that has been "unplanned" by the Powers that Be. It's surprising that more of the C&L folks don't seem to understand this, as it's been proven time and again, albeit many years after the fact, that we've been scammed (e.g., the 1st Pearl Harbor in '41, the Gulf of Tonkin, JFK/MLK/RFK/JFKjr. killings, 9/11, the Patriot Act/surveillance crap, Iraq war, these are just the most blatant things).
The current manipulation of the economy, the beating of the war drums again for Iran and now Russia, all of this is orchestrated, and the course America is on will not be altered one bit by Obama or McCain, if there is actually an election. I say that because I still happen to think Mr. Cheney has been using his "vacation" to finish up his planning for the next act.
Try as he may. Mc Shithead cant run or hide from the bare facts and the truth.The Rescumlicans hate the truth almost as much as they hate America.
Erroll,
Conservatives and mod dems cannot understand that the democratic party is not going to make the fundamental changes that need to be made to restablish real prosperity to the nation as a whole.
MountainMan23 @ 95:
Erroll @ 94:
While I agree with you that Obama is way less than my ideal progressive (and I'd include his fawning before AIPAC in your list) consider the FACT that he'd never get nominated, let alone elected, in America today if he were any more progressive than he is.
He's just a million times better than McCain and a thousand times better than sHillary.
So I say: fight to get him (and many progressive Dem CongressPersons) elected and then push them to do the right thing.
We in America seem to believe that Democracy is all about the election - elect your candidate and then everything will be OK.
REAL democracy requires pushing every elected official to do the right thing.
Andy K Jong Il @ 99:
☻Bangkok Bob ☺ @ 57:
greetings bankok bob! as a fellow korean vet i salute you, and read your comments all the time, have a nice night in bankok,
Oh look, they added a yell button to the site...
McSame probably had W's backpac-n-earpiece with Karl and Holy Joe fillin' his empty head with slogans to repeat.
89 Mountain Man -- yes, your explanation is perfectly understandable. That's exactly what Cheney did in 1991 but I guess he wasn't smart enough to figure that Bush Sr. would lose to Bill Clinton and he would have to wait another eight years to start cashing in. Of course, there was always Diebold to ensure he would cash in eventually. We need to make sure this evil sob and his thugs are either put in exile somewhere or tried for war crimes. Better yet, hung by the neck until dead, dead, dead. I certainly hope Obama picks Joe Biden as VP.
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Carol @ 86:
Not to mention his limo...
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Amitola @ 96:
I totally agree with you. History proves it, the present proves it, and the future will be more of the same.
If being tortured for 5+ years by the North Vietnamese makes McCain qualified to be our next president, then there are more than 250 current and former Gitmo detainees from Afganistan who are qualified to be the next Afgan president.
When all you have in your toolbox is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail. MZ
eric @ 13:
I am not an ardent supporter of Rick Warren, but one thing he is not is a liar. Also, as mentioned, he and Obama are friends. They talk and Warren has already had him come to his church to speak. If you watch Obama it also seemed that he knew already some of the answers. They both were coached well before they took this interview.
The Christian Right and the GOP are not interested in an open, unfiltered debate or discussion on an even playing field.
WHY OH WHY do they hate democracy?!?!
Che's Lounge @ 96:
Che's Lounge
I agree. What was most disheartening to see was that obsequious letter written by The Nation magazine and signed by so many liberals begging Obama to be more progressive and less militaristic than the policies that he is advocating. It is difficult to fathom that these intelligent people who signed this letter beseeching Obama to listen to them [which is also aligned with MountainMan23's thinking at comment # 100] do not seem to realize that their entreaties will have fallen upon deaf ears. Obama has absolutely no intention of listening to what they have to say as he is instead relying upon the less than progressive and militant ideas of his trusted advisers. As I stated in comment #94, Obama's thinking and centrist [if not right- leaning] views should be anathema to every liberal in this country. Sadly and alarmingly, they are pinning their hopes that their candidate "might" change his views and "hope" that he somehow changes his imperialist ways not before he takes office but instead after he has already taken over the reigns of power in Washington D.C.
tyree @ 102:
Erroll @ 114:
Well, the liberal path is strewn with obstacles, Erroll. It's neither left or right, ideologically. Liberalism is open to all options, all of the time.
And of course Obama's appeals are centrist-to-right at the present moment. Since Carter's administration, the political center has swung far to the right, the swing being only checked during the Clinton years rather than reversed. And when you look back over our history, liberals have never been 100% progressive. Jefferson supported the rights of men but kept slaves. The early GOP opposed slavery but supported laissez faire capitalism. FDR created a social safety-net, but didn't do much to fight segregation. LBJ passed massive civil rights reform, but got us deeply involved in Vietnam. But at no point did the electorate force the elected to move further to the left. Why do you expect differently now?
It's possible we will never know the full truth and at this point, all we can do is have faith that the new administration will do the right thing. I haven't seen my sister and her kids for eight years and seven months.
MountainMan23 @ 95:
Better check your facts before posting bs:
About 10:50 (local time) on the 29th, while preparations for a second strike were being made near 19?9'5?N, 107?23'5?E,3 an unguided 5-inch Mk-32 "Zuni" rocket, one of four contained in a LAU-10 underwing rocket pod mounted on a F-4 Phantom II, was accidentally fired due to an electrical power surge during the switch from external power to internal power. The rocket flew across the flight deck, striking a wing-mounted external fuel tank on an A-4 Skyhawk, either Aircraft No. 405 piloted by LCDR Fred D. White1 or No. 416 piloted by future Arizona Senator, LCDR John McCain,4 which were waiting to launch.3 The warhead's safety mechanism prevented it from detonating, but the impact tore the tank off the wing and ignited the resulting spray of pressurized fuel, causing an instantaneous conflagration. The heat caused additional fuel tanks to overheat, rupture and spew volatile jet fuel onto the deck, feeding the flames. Huge gusts of fire shot into the air along the flight deck, trapping pilots in their aircraft with no recourse but to escape through the flames or be incinerated in their cockpits. LCDR Fred D. White, waiting to launch in Aircraft No. 405, leaped out of his burning Skyhawk in an attempt to escape the inferno, but was killed instantly (along with many firefighters) by the cooking-off of the first bomb. LCDR Herbert A. Hope of VA-46 (and operations officer of CVW-17) jumped out of the cockpit of his Skyhawk between explosions, rolled off the flight deck and into the starboard man-overboard net. Making his way down below to the hangar deck, he gallantly took command of a firefighting team. "The port quarter of the flight deck where I was" he recalled, "is no longer there."3 With his aircraft surrounded by flames, McCain escaped by climbing out of the cockpit, walking down the nose and jumping off the refueling probe. The impact of the Zuni on the initially-struck aircraft had also dislodged two of the 1000-lb bombs, which lay in the burning fuel. The fire teams chief, Gerald Farrier (without benefit of protective clothing) immediately drenched the bombs with a PKP fire extinguisher in an effort to knock down the fuel fire long enough to allow the pilots to escape. According to their training, the fire team normally had almost three minutes to reduce the temperature of the bombs to a safe level, but the chief did not realize the bombs were already critically close to cooking-off until one split open. The chief, knowing a lethal explosion was imminent, shouted for the fire team to withdraw but the bomb exploded seconds later.citation needed One minute and 34 seconds after the impact and initial fire, and with the on-deck firefighting teams still actively battling the blaze, a 1000-lb. "Comp. B" bomb cooked off from the heat of the flames and exploded underneath McCain's plane; the force destroyed the aircraft (along with its remaining fuel and armament), blew a smoking crater in the armored flight deck, and sprayed the deck and crew with shrapnel and burning jet fuel. The explosion killed the entire on-deck firefighting contingent, with the exception of 3 men who managed to survive with critical injuries. The two bomb-laden A-4s in line ahead of McCain's were riddled with shrapnel from the explosion and engulfed in the flaming JP-5 jet fuel still spreading over the deck, causing more bombs to detonate and more fuel to spill. Exhausted crewmembers in front of what remains of a row of F-4B Phantoms that were parked along the starboard stern quarter.Nine bomb explosions on the flight deck occurred, eight caused by the "Comp. B" bombs and the ninth occurred as a sympathetic detonation between an old bomb and a newer H6 bomb. The explosions tore large holes in the armored flight deck, causing flaming jet fuel to drain into the interior of the ship, including the living quarters directly underneath the flight deck, and the below-decks aircraft hangar. Sailors and Marines brought the flames under control on the flight deck by 1215, although they continued to clear smoke and to cool hot steel on the 02 and 03 levels until they reported all fires under control by 1342, and finally declared the fire defeated at 0400 the next morning, due to additional flare-ups.3 Throughout the day the ship?s medical staff worked in dangerous conditions to assist their comrades. HM2 Paul Streetman, one of 38 corpsmen assigned to the carrier, spent over 11 hours on the mangled flight deck tending to his shipmates. The large number of casualties quickly overwhelmed the ship?s Sick Bay staff, and Forrestal was escorted by USS Henry W. Tucker (DD-875) to rendezvous with hospital ship USS Repose (AH-16) at 2054, allowing the crew to begin transferring the dead and wounded at 2253.3
Andy K Jong Il @ 99:
The epithet "Loose Cannon McCain" refers to McCain's hot headed brash militaristic approach to solving complex foreign policy issues, which, coupled with his inability to remember what he said twenty minutes ago, makes him a singularly danerous man.
The Forrestal incident rests subliminally in the background.
"Loose Cannon McCain"
scruzman @ 117:
Those are words - not facts.
My point is McCain is a Loose Cannon - an irresponsible and reckless individual whose behaviour (either intended or unintended) endangers the group he or she belongs to.
scruzman @ 117:
Yes, there are still a lot of unanswered questions about McCain's culpability for the Forrestal disaster. I think it would be a great topic for a Corsi book, like the one he did on Kerry.
Liberal AND Proud @ 113:
They hate democracy, because they want a fascist theocracy, where most knowledge is considered evil, and people only exist to make children, served the rich, and die fighting for the lord (actually the corporations, but why nitpick?) in fabricated wars.
George Orwell warned us. People better start opening their eyes.
Andy K Jong Il @ 116:
Andy
I was pretty much with you until your last sentence. I think your query should be directed not at me but at those misguided liberals who had signed the letter written by The Nation. One should hardly expect Obama to be swayed by liberals groveling on their knees for this pseudo liberal to change his centrist to right views which has so far taken him to the brink of the presidency. As I stated at comment #94, the evidence is there that Obama has absolutely no intention of becoming a true liberal. Whatever principles he may have once had have been placed aside in order to help him achieve his goal of obtaining the ultimate position of power.
McCain is NO war hero, he gave away highly classified information. The most important of which was he gave the "package route", which was the route to bomb North Vietnam. He told in detail the altitude they were flying, the direction, if they made a turn, and how to get into N. Vietnam. He also gave them where the targets were; of their primary entry. The result of this, according to the information that came out later on, in intelligence, was that the Vietnamese started knocking down our aircraft in greater amounts than they had before. In fact, there was an estimate that we started losing 60% more aircraft and more men than we had previously. This went on for about a month, and it got so bad, that they finally called off the bombing of North Vietnam because of the information that McCain had given to them....
http://educate-yourself.org/cn/earlhopperinterview08feb08.shtml
Mountain Man@118: "Those are words - not facts. My point is McCain is a Loose Cannon - an irresponsible and reckless individual whose behaviour (either intended or unintended) endangers the group he or she belongs to."
I got your point MM; my point was that McCain didn't have anything to do with the cause of the Forrestal accident. My post was taken from the official military history of the Forrestal.
Rusty@119 Write that sucker now!
At this point, I'm almost hoping McCain will be elected. Here's why:
With as much support as he has, it's become clear to me that Americans still have not learned their lesson. Too many of us still believe in the fascist cause, still believe the complete fantasy that the right preaches.
I guess after all that's happened, especially in the last 8 years, the pain still is not enough. We obviously have more damage to suffer, more pain to endure before we are convinced that the inevitable paradigm shift from paranoid empire to prosperous society is needed.
So, I say elect Republicans, attack more countries, destroy our families, our society, our environment, our middle class and the economy it feeds.
Then, when it has all collapsed, those of us left will emerge from the ruins, like the Germans and Japanese after WWII, lessons of history in hand, and build a better country, the one we have never been able to realize so far.
what would McCain know about the fighter pilot mentality?
he crashed 5 planes.
he was mysteriously involved in the Forrestal fire
he finished 2nd to last at the Academy
oh yeah... he was a ground attack pilot....
different than a fighter pilot.
you know when a ground attack pilot goes into combat
after the fighter jocks and the electronic countermeasures pilots go in first and mop up the opposition and take out the anti-aircraft sites.
pffft.
5f3yakfitguy @ 126:
I'm afraid it will come to that too. However...will there be a Normandy beach for America? of will it be of the Hiroshima kind of therapy?
Always remember, the Declaration of Independence trumps the Constitution.
scruzman @ 125:
Y'know, I really should. There are plenty of folks out there who say McCain was to blame. I think they deserve a fair hearing and lots of free publicity, just like the media gave the Swiftboat Veterans for Truth.
It's time the questions about McCain's killing of his shipmates were answered.
Rusty The One Shackleford @ 129:
it isn't like the Navy ever covered up anything before - or since. Or that his Admiral father/grandfather wouldn't be in a position or influence to protect the family name.
Gulf of Tonkin, USS Liberty, USS Iowa....
"he looks for somebody to hit before he actually thinks about the merit and/or consequences."
We really are cavemen. Sure, some have designer clothes and fancy cars, but when push comes to shove-- cavemen. Me have big club, me angry, me hit you. It's the American way, isn't it?
PS Remember the story of the Turtle and the Hare? The world's turtles are catching up to the USA now, and maybe even passing it. The unipolar era is over!!! Welcome to the post-American era.
Truth B Told @ 128:
Maybe more like Britain after WWI and WWII. Permanently neutered.
St. McCain has yet to meet a war he does not like.
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