"Today he told Russia they must leave Georgia “now” and the Russians basically replied “Gonna make us? You and which army?” "

I'm sure the response was more like..."Bring it on, Chimp boy."

Excellent spot to use the lesser of the two Buffys.

Maybe bush could do another skit like the one where he looked under tables for WMD. This time he could look for our military and our moral authority.

the neo-cons are picking a fight for US that we could not possibly win... there are enough neuclear weapons to blow up the planet several times over though...

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/20/opinion/20gorbachev.html?hp

Russia Never Wanted a War

Article
By MIKHAIL GORBACHEV

It's time for the Yellow Elephant brigade to put down their Hot Pockets and support freedom!

Again, the US has zero creditability on the world stage. Nations no longer listen to Chimp boy...if they ever did in the first place.

Amerika is an international joke. Telling other countries they must withdraw—or else.

Puh-leze.

As grammatically incorrect as it may be, the proper playground phrase is 'you and what army?'

Liberal AND Proud @ 12:

bubba @ 10:

Russia isn't back. They can't stand up to NATO and the US in a conventional fight. They only spend like 6% of what we do, have a conscript army and are running around with gorbachevs army, largely unimproved and much smaller. Their entire military strategy for fighting the west is to rely on tactical nukes so they have basically given up on conventional war fighting with us.

They can take abzakia and s.o. but their neighbors are on higher alert. If they grab a chunk of ukraine this will get very serious, very quickly.

If they turn off the oil to Western Europe, they won't have to worry about an air or armor attack. Who's gonna supply the oil...CHINA? LOLOL!

No...no...wait...we'll use OUR Strategic Oil Reserve! LOLOL!. Noo..no...I know...we'll start drilling off our shores and ask the Russians to hold off on starting the war for 5 years till we get ready!

And how the russian oligarchs going to afford those new swimming pools? Energy suppliers become as addicted as the users. Just look at Opec. The 1970s embargo did them absolutely no good and they avoid it.

these are the relation nuances that are flying above mccain's lobbyist-riddled brain.

let Trigger happy and Out of touch take care of america for the next 4-8 years.

bubba @ 15:

Liberal AND Proud @ 12:

bubba @ 10:

Russia isn't back. They can't stand up to NATO and the US in a conventional fight. They only spend like 6% of what we do, have a conscript army and are running around with gorbachevs army, largely unimproved and much smaller. Their entire military strategy for fighting the west is to rely on tactical nukes so they have basically given up on conventional war fighting with us.

They can take abzakia and s.o. but their neighbors are on higher alert. If they grab a chunk of ukraine this will get very serious, very quickly.

If they turn off the oil to Western Europe, they won't have to worry about an air or armor attack. Who's gonna supply the oil...CHINA? LOLOL!

No...no...wait...we'll use OUR Strategic Oil Reserve! LOLOL!. Noo..no...I know...we'll start drilling off our shores and ask the Russians to hold off on starting the war for 5 years till we get ready!

And how the russian oligarchs going to afford those new swimming pools? Energy suppliers become as addicted as the users. Just look at Opec. The 1970s embargo did them absolutely no good and they avoid it.

What is your point.

Mine is very simple. Russia has more than enough oil inside its own borders to be self sufficient.

Armies run on FUEL.

Not only that, but I think there's a legitimate question as to whether the Russians are really the bad guys here. Take for example those "separatists" in South Ossetia who are aligned with Russia and supposedly provoking the central government in Georgia. Turns out the separatists are about 90% of the population of South Ossetia:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6140448.stm

So how can we argue we're on the side of freedom and democracy when that's exactly what the South Ossetians are striving for by breaking away from Georgia in the first place? They've even held an election to affirm the fact.

Perhaps this is a stupid move on their part, and I doubt Russia is intervening out of purely altruistic motives, but again, how are we increasing the amount of freedom and democracy by backing the Georgians in their ill-conceived crackdown on South Ossetia, against the will of the people in that province?

And as for Abkhazia, they're calling for independence too, and asking the RUSSIANS to stay and provide security:

http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/08/20/georgia.russia.war/index....

What exactly are we fighting for, again?

My point is very simple as well. There is a great deal of Russia being back militarily, but they arent. Their military is still in really bad shape but still it's more than enough to overwhelm all of their immediate neighbors if they don't find some kind of collective security arrangements.

And Russia isnt the only source of oill, and the militaries would be the last to go without. It would hurt more economically.

bubba @ 22:

My point is very simple as well. There is a great deal of Russia being back militarily, but they arent. Their military is still in really bad shape but still it's more than enough to overwhelm all of their immediate neighbors if they don't find some kind of collective security arrangements.

And Russia isnt the only source of oill, and the militaries would be the last to go without. It would hurt more economically.

Their armies are more than sufficient to overrun Western Europe militarily. THAT is why the US has cruise missiles and tactical nukes based in Europe for DECADES. They are the only defense against Russian tanks. Which the Russians have plenty of and plenty of resources to build more. The Cold War was based on deterrance and MAD.

The placement of the SDI system in Europe changed the math. It has REQUIRED the Russians to respond in the manner that they are responding.

Now, back to my earlier points. U.S. neocons may be willing to sacrifice European cities in a FINAL War against Russia, but I highly doubt that the Western Europeans are so eager. And if you think that they will allow us to fire nuclear weapons today, on European soil...Western or Eastern you are sadly mistaken.

The Russians, IF they so choose, are going to reassert themselves in all the old Soviet satellites, and we aren't going to do a thing about it militarily. Not unless we are willing to destroy the planet.

So....DIPLOMACY.

You strike a deal with the Russians to withdraw and then in six months you remove the SDI system from the Ukraine and cancel the system in Poland.

THAT is how foreign policy works.

no wonder mcBush stumbled on the draft response/question......

The problem is that the President is an IDIOT, who is playing soldier, and being manipulated by madmen bent on some half baked scheme to take over the world.

bubba @ 23:

My point is very simple as well. There is a great deal of Russia being back militarily, but they arent. Their military is still in really bad shape but still it's more than enough to overwhelm all of their immediate neighbors if they don't find some kind of collective security arrangements.

And Russia isnt the only source of oill, and the militaries would be the last to go without. It would hurt more economically.

And our military is in good shape?!?!?!?!? My god, we can barely supply troops to Iraq and Afghanistan, our equipment is worn out, and no, you can't win a war with airpower alone. Notice how fast Bushco sent Coni to Iraq to negotiate and agreement on troop withdrawal? He knows he's got nothing to counter Russia with except maybe Blackwater, and they cost too much. NATO may step in, but I doubt it. They certainly don't want a war on their turf, and I expect they would intervene only if Russia makes another move in a more westerly direction. And even NATO knows we've spent our military.

And we in Norway are stuck somewhat in the middle, trying desperately to not be too closely associated with Bush, but can't afford to distance ourselves to the USA. Good thing Russia is not too concerned with Norwegian territory, since we stalled for years after 1945, and then rebuffed their demands for a third of our country, when we joined Nato back in '49.

Of course, with the increased interest in the Arctic and its resources, expect a lot more showing of muscle all over the place.

And our military is in good shape?!?!?!?!? My god, we can barely supply troops to Iraq and Afghanistan, our equipment is worn out, and no, you can't win a war with airpower alone. Notice how fast Bushco sent Coni to Iraq to negotiate and agreement on troop withdrawal? He knows he's got nothing to counter Russia with except maybe Blackwater, and they cost too much. NATO may step in, but I doubt it. They certainly don't want a war on their turf, and I expect they would intervene only if Russia makes another move in a more westerly direction. And even NATO knows we've spent our military.

Sure, we have our own issues with too many deployments but Russia is literally a generation behind. Even the Russians have been saying this, its nothing new. They want a better military made of of professional volunteers with better gear but havent found the way forward yet.

Russian doctrine is even tailored to this reality. They plan to use tactical nukes to counter our precision weapons. Their conventional forces cant handle that stuff.

Norse @ 33:

And we in Norway are stuck somewhat in the middle, trying desperately to not be too closely associated with Bush, but can't afford to distance ourselves to the USA. Good thing Russia is not too concerned with Norwegian territory, since we stalled for years after 1945, and then rebuffed their demands for a third of our country, when we joined Nato back in '49.

Of course, with the increased interest in the Arctic and its resources, expect a lot more showing of muscle all over the place.

My cousin did his national service way north on the Norway/Russia border in the 90s. He said it was very boring. He said the that the Norse and the Russ just basically stared at each other through binoculars 24/7. Might be more exciting up there soon, eh? I hope not.

The Russians should just realise they're Norwegians too... :)

Doesn't matter if Russia is or isn't prepared as they ought to be or would like to be.
Some where in their army they must have someone who knows whats what and is saying "you go to war with the army you have".

Look at how great thats worked out for us.

I hope that if bush and his cabal even breathe about war with Russia we impeach the SOB ASAP before he can send 1 plane or bomb 1 city.

As much as everybody here likes to blame Bush for everything, there are two things to note:

1) The Russians have told us that their actions are justified by our actions in Iraq, Afghanistan, and Kosovo. This is not a Bush foreign policy issue - it's an America foriegn policy issue dating back decades.

2) The notion of American "moral authority" and credibility. Big, powerful, rich countries will do what they want and nobody can do a damn thing about it; it's only the small states that have no backing and no power of their own that become pariahs. China tortures dissidents and sends troops into Tibet - the world does nothing. The US illegally and immorally invades Afghanistan and Iraq - the world does nothing. Russia goes FAR beyond the appropriate response to Georgia's bellicosity and uses Georgia's idiocy to run wild - the world does nothing.

Only countries that are not powerful, like Iraq and Serbia, get held accountable. Russia, US, China - the world isn't gonna do a damn thing, pre-Bush or post-Bush.

Liberal AND Proud @ 38:

bubba @ 35:

And our military is in good shape?!?!?!?!? My god, we can barely supply troops to Iraq and Afghanistan, our equipment is worn out, and no, you can't win a war with airpower alone. Notice how fast Bushco sent Coni to Iraq to negotiate and agreement on troop withdrawal? He knows he's got nothing to counter Russia with except maybe Blackwater, and they cost too much. NATO may step in, but I doubt it. They certainly don't want a war on their turf, and I expect they would intervene only if Russia makes another move in a more westerly direction. And even NATO knows we've spent our military.

Sure, we have our own issues with too many deployments but Russia is literally a generation behind. Even the Russians have been saying this, its nothing new. They want a better military made of of professional volunteers with better gear but havent found the way forward yet.

Russian doctrine is even tailored to this reality. They plan to use tactical nukes to counter our precision weapons. Their conventional forces cant handle that stuff.

You're dreamin.

Don't be so fixated on technology. Russia can overwhelm Europe with sheer NUMBERS, in people and material. That is why we have based NUKES in Western Europe. If there are any nukes being fired, we're the ones gonna be doin' the firin'.

I suggest you go back and read some history, 'cause your wrong on many points and makin' up others.

Hey, rip van winkle, its not 85. Russia spends 6% of what the US does, let alone all the NATO countries combined. Large portions of their military gear is old and mothballed. Their army is made up of unhappy draftees. SOmething like 90% of those eligible manage to avoid it.

The russian army fell apart and fell behind in the 90s. Putin has quadrupled the budget and they are still not spending much compared to the west. If you don't spend the money, you don't have an army. Unless they have cooked up some kind of perpetual motion machine to make stuff.

You may want to believe that russia is a strong as the soviet union, but thats just crazy talk.

"Duh", as in DUHbya?!

> As I say, busted flush.

More like a busted two-gap gutshot straight on a paired board with an ace and Teddy KGB is just sitting there chewing Oreos like he's going into insulin shock.

I dont think we should invade anyone. I'm just pointing out that Russia is not the threat it once was. They just dont have the power to back it up, short of nuclear war. Half of the former warsaw pact is now in NATO.

The concern would be that the policy of intervening to protect "russians" and then adding the land to the russian federation could spill over into Ukraine. There is no doubt the russians are sending the message that they want to control their neighbors. They dont want NATO there.

Its a difference of opinion, not moral principle.

Liberal AND Proud @ 46:

bubba @ 43:

Liberal AND Proud @ 38:

bubba @ 35:

You're dreamin.

Don't be so fixated on technology. Russia can overwhelm Europe with sheer NUMBERS, in people and material. That is why we have based NUKES in Western Europe. If there are any nukes being fired, we're the ones gonna be doin' the firin'.

I suggest you go back and read some history, 'cause your wrong on many points and makin' up others.

Hey, rip van winkle, its not 85. Russia spends 6% of what the US does, let alone all the NATO countries combined. Large portions of their military gear is old and mothballed. Their army is made up of unhappy draftees. SOmething like 90% of those eligible manage to avoid it.

The russian army fell apart and fell behind in the 90s. Putin has quadrupled the budget and they are still not spending much compared to the west. If you don't spend the money, you don't have an army. Unless they have cooked up some kind of perpetual motion machine to make stuff.

You may want to believe that russia is a strong as the soviet union, but thats just crazy talk.

Yeah. Disgruntled draftees.

All neocon points. Basically, Russia will collapse from within. Ask your specialist in Russia, Condi about that.

The Russian people are proud and will defend their homeland just like anyone else.

And if you think that we can invade Russia...I suggest you ask the Germans how well that went.

The Russians can gear up their military to meet whatever threat is required. As mentioned above they certainly did it big time in WWII.

And the Russian people can take a great deal more privation that Americans.

Dubya putting "defensive" missiles in Poland and the Czech Rep was pretty much the last straw unless of course this is what the Repukes want; it's hard to tell with these madmen.

bubba @ 49:

I dont think we should invade anyone. I'm just pointing out that Russia is not the threat it once was. They just dont have the power to back it up, short of nuclear war. Half of the former warsaw pact is now in NATO.

The concern would be that the policy of intervening to protect "russians" and then adding the land to the russian federation could spill over into Ukraine. There is no doubt the russians are sending the message that they want to control their neighbors. They dont want NATO there.

Its a difference of opinion, not moral principle.

Russia has more than enough power to project itself into the surrounding territories. We simply disagree on that point.

Bottom line, the U.S. is in no position to go to the mat on this. We don't have the manpower in the area, and so long as the Russians don't go past a certain point west, the Europeans won't confront them.

WE created this problem. We took former Soviet countries into NATO, and then denied the Russians entry. American capitalists raped the Russian economy. The U.S. has reneged on Reagan's pledge to share the SDI system with the Russians and to NOT place it within the sphere of influence of the old Soviet republics.

We are the country with only a nuclear arsenal to make claim of being an empire. And we are the country that is being imperialist here. We are extending influence into Russia's neighborhood. They are fully in their right to respond as they have. We instigated this disaster.

bubba @ 49:

I dont think we should invade anyone. I'm just pointing out that Russia is not the threat it once was. They just dont have the power to back it up, short of nuclear war. Half of the former warsaw pact is now in NATO.

The concern would be that the policy of intervening to protect "russians" and then adding the land to the russian federation could spill over into Ukraine. There is no doubt the russians are sending the message that they want to control their neighbors. They dont want NATO there.

Its a difference of opinion, not moral principle.

Isn't that the point? When they have nukes, we could lose by losing or lose by winning. Either way...

I said above that they have enough to project power to take on any of their immediate neighbors...which is why their immediate neighbors are concerned and leaning west. Russia makes a very bad neighbor and those people remember it.

Its not the fault of the US if the Russians made their neighbors hate and fear them. Bush didnt do it. Unintended consequences apply to all nations, not just the US, or George Bush.

bubba @ 49:

I dont think we should invade anyone. I'm just pointing out that Russia is not the threat it once was. They just dont have the power to back it up, short of nuclear war. Half of the former warsaw pact is now in NATO.

Russia may not be the threat they once were, but they're a much, much bigger player in the European energy economy than they ever were.

Our key NATO allies are going to be very, very allergic to doing much more than writing a strongly worded letter to the UN.

And if you think WE are going to be interested in holding their feet to the fire, ask yourself, how long before Russia starts buying up all that Iraq war debt in China?

China needs oil. Russia has oil. Russia needs leverage over the US. China has leverage over the US.

Deal, or no deal?

They gave them passports as part of a strategy. They arent ethnic russians and they dont speak russian. Russia would have a better case to invade Ukraine and take away the Crimea. Then again Germany did the same in WWII in the sudentenland.

But it wasnt simply a georgian attempt to reclaim land they think of as theirs. There was also an effort by the ossetians to draw the georgians in, hoping russia would intervene. They were ambushing gerogians, setting off IEDS. Thats what seperatists do. But they wont be getting real independence, they'll be joining russia, which they want anyway. Well, the georgian minority doesnt want that but they might all be gone by now. The media is reporting many burned out villages.

The abkhazians will likely do the same and they werent even involved in this, yet russian troops rolled into there as well. Just as Ukraine is preparing to kick the russian navy out of sevastopol the russians just secured additional black sea territory.

The part of a strategy mantra is pretty dangerous unto itself.

We ringed their country with an ABM system. We have installed governments into former Soviet Republics.

We engineered the election of a U.S. proxy in Georgia and egged him into invading a country he had no claim to, and which had formal trade and protection agreements with Russia. The invaders killed Russian citizens and peacekeepers.

Just how did the Russians instigate this?

Wait, I dont understand, you support ossetian self-determination but don't allow Ukraine and Georgia their rights as sovereign nations to ally with whomever the want?

Certainly the russians are feeling stressed, theyve lost most of their traditional buffer states and are on the verge of losing the last of them. But that's also on them for being such historically bad neighbors. Personally, I feel safer with a stronger NATO. NATO historically has not been a european aggressor. Everyone remembers what the soviets got up to.

Has anyone thought that this might be for the better?

boosh has so destroyed America's might, money and morale, I've been afraid a power-vacuum might develop, and couldn't see the EU filling in, after the last Superpower falls. When we have radical Islam on the march we need people to step up to say Nein or Nyet.

And with the thread above where the FBI wants to be able to investigate anybody, 4th amendment be damned, what authoritarianism is there to fear, when booshco is providing it already?

I love how Condi and Bush are all over this.

It's because it's a threat they think they understand. They've obviously screwed Iraq beyond hope, but here's a conflict they can get a handle on. Condi is a Cold War expert, and here's a chance to start a whole new one.

She's going to be at the Warsaw Walmart screaming 'Tear Down This Wall, Mr. Putin' before you know it.

The Russians know the US military is over-taxed. They get CNN too. They're not afraid of Bush. They'll push on this to see what concessions they can get from Bush or his successor, on or under the table. (Remember the Cuban Missile Crisis? They got a whole missile system dismantled...)

Don't discount the Russian army, BTW. A large chunk of what you've seen in Western media is total crap.

Once we fall for the neocon nonsense that the Russians are not the military power they once were, then we will be one step away from another misguided military romp.

Nuclear weapons were for deterrance. Once you take deterrance out of the way, with say an anti missile system, which tips the balance as such a system provides not only defense from an unprovoked attack, but also against an attack brought on in retaliation of your own actions.

You wind up where we are now. We dared the Russians to "cross over the line" that we keep moving closer and closer to their own territory. We gambled that they wouldn't because they wouldn't risk nuclear war. Well, guess what. They did. So now the shoe is on the other foot. Now it is them daring US to start nuclear war over their actions.

Anyone that thinks that this situation is winnable by anyone, is an idiot. Anyone that thinks that the probability of this situation escalating out of control unless cooler heads prevail is also an idiot.

timr @ 72:

Nowhere have I seen this story(except on CNN Europe and McClatchy) about how Turkey refused entry to the Black Sea of the USNS Comfort-a US Navy hospital ship. Then CNN and McC said that the US is sending 2 destroyers(DD) and a Coast Guard cutter from the Msd to the Black Sea because Turkey had already granted permission-it was for a joint exercise with the RUSSIAN NAVY, and permission was granted prior to the current rukus-so, it is now up to Turkey. If sending the USNS Comfort would be-in their words-an unnessary provocation, what would sending 2 DD's be?(guided missile destroyers at that) All this started up 2-3 days ago, yet nothing at all on this story can be found in the US MSM. LATE BREAKING NEWS-Syria has stated that the only Aircraft Carrier that the Russians have will be stationed-along with all its support ships, so that would make it a carrier group-at a Syrian med port. Is this what the US really wants or is it just the total incompetence coming to the surface in its last few months? Or, is it due to cheney and the neocons who dearly wish for the return of the cold war-except that they have been totally wrong on every thing that they got bush to do. 4 months and days left, WTF else can bush do to totally screw up the US? Now if the neocon wish of cold war comes true once more, that means a couple of things right off the bat 1-return of the draft with zero exceptions, boys and girls, everybody + recalls to service of all who can breath and talk(doesn't matter who is prez, it will have to be done) and 2- massive deficit spending-or much higher taxes or both-in order to support a massive increase in our military. We spent the USSR into the ground(which caused its collapse) but that was then, now that they are rich with oil and gas sales, we won't be able to do it again. They already have a massive military-they still have the draft-NATO and the US just figured that they could poke and humiliate Russia without consequence and could also shrink their militaries. Well, unless something happens within the next 6 months to change the direction of what is turning out to be a total clusterfuck, then the cold war will return. That is what happens when you put ideologues in charge without adult(well maybe congress is no longer a place where one can find adults) supervision. bush has had 7.5 years to screw things up, not satisified with trashing the constitution, he now wants to leave Obama with a world teetering once more on the brink of nuclear holocaust. Yet the sheeple-50% of the american voters-can still give the election to McCain. If that happens, find a deep hole, bend over, and kiss your ass goodby. Personally, my wife and I will go to Canada-way north Canada.

Heh.

Anyone want me to repost my post from yesterday in which I "speculated" on how this can escaltate.

majicman @ 24:

........It fucking scares me to take seriously the two candidates that are running for President. Both are inept in so many ways. Simply listening to the articulate manner of other world leaders leave these two choices in the dust.............

I agree............if you think about all the great minds in this country, and all the great things this country has accomplished in the past, it's depressing to think that these two guys are the best we can do in such a critical election. For many of us, a vote for Obama is simply saying no to a McCain presidency.

bubba @ 76:

Wait, wait, wait...

I dont think you can just put this on Bush and Cheney. The expansion of NATO, which is what this is all about, has been US policy since Clinton. Europe was onboard as well.

We have finally reached Russias red-line. They do not want Ukraine and Georgia in NATO. That's where the clarity breaks down. Do they get to decide their neighbors policies? I have no idea whats right.

LOL. Yes, it's Clinton's fault. And Eisenhower...if only he'd listened to Patton we wouldn't be in this mess.

More evidence of the wasted effort in Iraq and how it is hurting us in dealing with the real issues; the terrorists that attacked us in Afghanistan and Pakistan and a Russian ruler following the imperialistic designs of our own ChimpNChief.

Remember our ChimpNChief might talk tough like "dead or alive" or about going after terrorists and the nations who harbour them....but we know how that turned out. And the asshole Putin knows it's only so much talk.

What a fine mess these Fairy Neocons have gotten us into.

Ohhh...if only Mr. Reagan had not beseeched Mr. Gorbachev to tear down that wall.

bubba @ 84:

Liberal AND Proud @ 79:

bubba @ 76:

Wait, wait, wait...

I dont think you can just put this on Bush and Cheney. The expansion of NATO, which is what this is all about, has been US policy since Clinton. Europe was onboard as well.

We have finally reached Russias red-line. They do not want Ukraine and Georgia in NATO. That's where the clarity breaks down. Do they get to decide their neighbors policies? I have no idea whats right.

LOL. Yes, it's Clinton's fault. And Eisenhower...if only he'd listened to Patton we wouldn't be in this mess.

I'm not blaming anyone in particular. Its just that you are such a low-grade partisan hack that you need to frame everything in those terms. You assume everyone else is like you but I cant help you. Rave away! Extra froth please.

Oh no. The expansion of Nato has been U.S. policy since Reagan. Funny how you start at Clinton.

You're skirt is showing.

bubba @ 76:

Wait, wait, wait...

I dont think you can just put this on Bush and Cheney. The expansion of NATO, which is what this is all about, has been US policy since Clinton. Europe was onboard as well.

We have finally reached Russias red-line. They do not want Ukraine and Georgia in NATO. That's where the clarity breaks down. Do they get to decide their neighbors policies? I have no idea whats right.

Hold on a sec there Bubba...wasn't it in fact REAGAN that started the NATO expansion?

JHR @ 77:

majicman @ 24:

........It fucking scares me to take seriously the two candidates that are running for President. Both are inept in so many ways. Simply listening to the articulate manner of other world leaders leave these two choices in the dust.............

I agree............if you think about all the great minds in this country, and all the great things this country has accomplished in the past, it's depressing to think that these two guys are the best we can do in such a critical election. For many of us, a vote for Obama is simply saying no to a McCain presidency.

Um...actually I've been pretty damn impressed with Obama's articulate manner...light years ahead of Bushie and McBain easily.

rduke @ 60:

We spend 200 million on a pen that can write in space... Russia brings pencils for .03 cents....

That's not actually true.

http://www.snopes.com/business/genius/spacepen.asp

The missle shield is basically worthless against Sun Burn missles, Cruise missles and tactical nukes. Drive a truck within a mile or two and with the right nuke in the truck, kaboooooooommmm, missle shield all gone. Explode one 1 mile up and the EMP would disable everything under it. The shield is effective against ICBM's, and more 'conventional' styles of missles, 'shoot up in air, fall to earth' types. The Russians will not allow Poland, the Ukraine or any other 'front yard' states to be the site of such a thing. Georgia has oil and gas pipelines from the Capian Basin running thru it. If the US thinks it can win against the Russians when a bunch of fucking sheep herders are tieing it up in Iraq and Afghanistan, they must be nuts. I mean the Russians can WALK to the front, we would have to go half way around the world. I doubt Europe would be much help, remember, they get almost all of their oil and gas FROM Russia.

Now that the end is possibly in sight concerning U.S. presence in Iraq combined with a loss of credibility on the GWOT... the U.S. needs another boogie-man to scare the shit outta Americans and keep the gears of the MIC cranking. Russia may fit those shoes.

St. Paul Scout @ 93:

The missle shield is basically worthless against Sun Burn missles, Cruise missles and tactical nukes. Drive a truck within a mile or two and with the right nuke in the truck, kaboooooooommmm, missle shield all gone. Explode one 1 mile up and the EMP would disable everything under it. The shield is effective against ICBM's, and more 'conventional' styles of missles, 'shoot up in air, fall to earth' types. The Russians will not allow Poland, the Ukraine or any other 'front yard' states to be the site of such a thing. Georgia has oil and gas pipelines from the Capian Basin running thru it. If the US thinks it can win against the Russians when a bunch of fucking sheep herders are tieing it up in Iraq and Afghanistan, they must be nuts. I mean the Russians can WALK to the front, we would have to go half way around the world. I doubt Europe would be much help, remember, they get almost all of their oil and gas FROM Russia.

It's not really effective against ICBM's either since the system can't tell the difference between a real warhead and a decoy. It's relatively easy to defeat.

Frybread @ 90:

bubba @ 10:

Russia isn't back. They can't stand up to NATO and the US in a conventional fight. They only spend like 6% of what we do, have a conscript army and are running around with gorbachevs army, largely unimproved and much smaller. Their entire military strategy for fighting the west is to rely on tactical nukes so they have basically given up on conventional war fighting with us.

They can take abzakia and s.o. but their neighbors are on higher alert. If they grab a chunk of ukraine this will get very serious, very quickly.

What's your point? Iraq could not beat us in a stand-up fight, but its insurgents are bleeding us dry.

And what's your point? We went to the moon and left boogers behind!!!! Hopefully that is as related to the context of your remarks as yours were to mine.

The USA has all kinds of intel. assets in Europe, there are spy sats. that can read license plates, and the war making neo-doofs sat on their hands while tanks rolled. This would suggest to an unbiased observer that the fix is in. We sure can't know the mind of the dark side, but a group that has been hoping for the end time so the dead can be brought back to life....could be capable of what exactly?

“Gonna make us? You and which army?”

LOL! Yeah that's what I was wondering. Comrade Premiere Putin must be positively euphoric. There was a time (about eight years ago?) when a confrontation with the U.S. military was something that was thought twice about, even three times. Sadly that is no longer the case. Heck, Russia even threatened to nuke Poland for God's sake! Yes Dick and George definitely had their asses handed to them on this one. Whenever I think they can't humiliate our country anymore than they already have, they seem to find a way. Besides, is anyone surprised over Russia, where communism is alive and well. Just because the Berlin Wall came down and few statues of Lenin and Stalin were knocked over didn't mean the death of communism in eastern Europe. It's a different ball game now, like China, Russia has money and leverage now. I think Putin wants to bring the Mother Land back to her old red ways.