Buffy The Church Slayer
By Steve Hynd Sunday Aug 24, 2008 1:00pm
The UK's conservative Daily Telegraph reports that Buffy The Vampire Slayer presents a clear and present danger to the Church of England (h/t Kat).
[A] report claims more than 50,000 women a year have deserted their congregations over the past two decades because they feel the church is not relevant to their lives.
It says that instead young women are becoming attracted to the pagan religion Wicca, where females play a central role, which has grown in popularity after being featured positively in films, TV shows and books.
... The report's author, Dr Kristin Aune, a sociologist at the University of Derby, said: "In short, women are abandoning the church.
"Because of its focus on female empowerment, young women are attracted by Wicca, popularised by the TV series Buffy the Vampire Slayer.
"Young women tend to express egalitarian values and dislike the traditionalism and hierarchies they imagine are integral to the church."
Hmmm. Opposition to single mothers, to woman clergy, to sex outside marraige, to abortion, to equal rights for women in so many ways. What could possibly make young women "imagine" traditionalsim and hierachies in church?
But I'm actually quite surprised that the McCain campaign hasn't had a go at Wiccans yet, maybe by suggesting that "Muslim" Obama's wife Michelle is a secret coven-goer. After all, McCain campaign spokesman Michael Goldfarb recently tried to tie Obama to Dungeons and Dragons players, hitting the twin themes of geeky basement-dwellers (i.e your average Fighting Keyboarder) and Christian evangelical horror fables about rpgs being closely tied to Satanism. And we're told that while no-one in America will vote for an atheist, they're more likely to vote for an atheist than a pagan. Give it time, I suppose. Goldfarb can only manage so much hackery at once.
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How about just the smarmy way that churches treat women in general? I never felt comfortable in the church and was glad to abandon it for free thinking and clarity.
I wish these "godly" churchies would focus on their own ugly problems instead of inventing shiny new ones for everybody.
Days like these make me think the entire world is losing its mind.
Did IQs across the globe just suddenly decline over the last several years?
The Clear and Present Danger presented by Buffy the Vampire Slayer is that it is a product of the Mainstream Media.
Hidden in the dialogue and images are bits of manufactured opinion and consent, not to mention the commercials in between.
I watched this last night.
Orwell Rolls in his Grave is the title. I knew the MsM was after us, but the details make hair turn gray.
Allowing the enemy into your home every night is dangerous.
Please don't watch TV.
It only makes our enemy stronger and us weaker.
Is that what you want?
Liberal AND Proud @ 2:
Even if that's the case they're still lightyears ahead of this nation...
The brain drain...it 'ain't' a Michael Crichton (BS) novel...
“Young women tend to express egalitarian values and dislike the traditionalism and hierarchies they imagine are integral to the church.”
They "dislike the traditionalism and hierarchies they imagine are integral to the church.”
Whoa. They "imagine" the church is hidebound, hierarchical, and oppressive?
Wonder what gave 'em that idea?
as a real life atheist & also a level 26/26 Wild Elf Ranger/Sorcerer, i'll at least give it to the Wiccans that they're a lot more fun than any other "religious" people, the one possible exception being those Order of the Golden Dawn & Ordo Templi Orienti Abbey of Thelema Aleister Crowley folks...well, they aren't more fun than Wiccans, but surely more entertaining than any of the "mainstream" religions.
LOL!! So they go from one superstition to another? So what. It's like changing brands of soda. The churchies need a new marketing ploy because "sorry about all the sodomy" isn't cutting it any more.
I have a better idea for the egalitarian-minded heretics: Since you are choosing your religion based on your already-deciphered moral code, how about simply leaving the church, period. No need to adopt another set of supernatural tenets. Think freely.
In more rational news from the British Isles, an atheist just might be poised to become the prime minister.
woody, tokin librul @ 5:
It is kind of a silly for women to attempt to reason. As long as they can put together a shopping list and efficiently clean the house and raise the kids then they should be happy and content. Leave the real thinking to the men.
that show hasn't been on in years.
The real danger is not being responsive or relevant to the needs of their parishioners and membership.
This is a case of take the log out of your own eye before you criticize the splinter in mine.
By christs peirced sides...how the hell is this show even relevant...hasn't it been off the air for a few years now?
Saddest of all is that this report was penned by a woman, "Dr Kristin Aune" and "a sociologist." (!?!?!)
CafeenMan @ 8:
A woman's place is in the house. . . . . . . and the senate.
Can someone tell me the difference between...
Jonah in the belly of a whale for 3 days, the Ark (and 2 of each 'baby dinosaur'), talking snakes, and humanity's gene pool forming from Eve, Adam, & Kane???
and
Believing that crystals, candles, chalices, and other wiccan tools have magical properties?
That being said, I don't have any problems with people believing what they want, its when that personal belief is projected onto others....that I have a problem with.
Note: I have a few right wingnutty 'born agains' in my family....but I also have a Wiccan, and several agnostics & atheists...
As with the world, we should be able to coexist...
We're still doing Buffy posts? ... Really?
Drilling solves nothing (aka right wing hater) @ 14:
Yeah...nice thought...but the reality is...most of the sunday xtians, don't wan't nobody else on their damn cloud if they aren't in lockstep, believin in the same mythological deity.
Imagine???? They only imagine this? Yea, I suppose so... It's only taken about 2000 years but I guess sooner or later anyone gets tired of that patriarchal I'm holier than thou, finger pointing crap... Especially when the hypocracy of it all is so glaringly obvious...... Yea.. blame it all on Buffy, or Harry P. or anything to avoid facing the truth of the matter................ Which is more about people and women in particular in this case seeing finally what is really going on... Which is the perverting and twisting of the words of a man who may have been a visionary or some kind of special being 2000 years ago...or not.. A man who preached that people should stop being mean to one another and try loving one another instead.. Yes, there are all kinds of details, but all of it essentially boils down to that................JD
"Hmmm. Opposition to single mothers, to woman clergy, to sex outside marriage, to abortion, to equal rights for women in so many ways. What could possibly make young women “imagine” traditionalism and hierachies in church?"
Thanks, Cernig. Your sarcasm made me chuckle.
These women (and all of us, indeed) would be better off discarding religion altogether, IMAO.
Most everything about organized religion has not made sense to me from the time I was about 12. Now that I am going on 60 it would be nice if there were some continuation of consciousness after death but the description of "heaven" reminds me of a deep heroin high and hell, well that's just crazy talk. When ever I bring up the history of religion to make a point of how horrible things can get I am told my the "believers" that what I am talking about was along time ago and things are much different now. Even if what I am talking about is just a few short years ago. How anyone can associate themselves with an organization that has taken the philosophy of Jesus and twisted it so much as to justify the murder of millions and millions.. is just way beyond me.
While slightly more credible than Scientology, Wicca isn't a old religion.
It was founded by Gerald Gardner in the 1930's or 40's depending on who you ask. Despite Gardner's supposed magical powers he failed to so much as cure his own Asthma. It is also interesting to note that his own wife never converted to Wicca and continued going to the local Anglican Church her entire life.
I would probably be amazingly helpful if I had ever seen the show and knew what it was about.
Many churches are moving backward while both men and women are moving ahead. Somewhere in the struggle, there has to come a separation.
I'm amazed there are not yet riots in the southern US...Oh and maybe at warren's church for the inheritance crowd in Southern California...
has the calendar been some how turned back 500 years and I missed it???
Attacking Pagans and Wiccans by closed minded and intolerant Christians... yet? Um, sorry. History is rife with such attacks. Lets start with the Burning Times in Europe, proceed to our own Witch trials straight on to Bob Barr and his efforts to have Pagans and Wiccans removed from military service by campaigning against them at Ft Hood and other military bases. And lets not mention the present day religious discrimination directed to Pagans and Wiccans at Peterson AFB. For Pete's sake! Family members of fallen military Pagans and Wiccans only recently won the right to have a Pentacle displayed on a military grave stone. Considering women are the backbone of every Christian church, the volunteering, the out-reach programs, teaching Sunday school, the cooking, the driving, the help/health care and aid, just maybe, yes. They would consider leaving the Christian church for something that treats them with actual respect and dignity and not as chattel.
Will there be NEW attacks on Pagans and Wiccans by the Neocons?
What time is it?
Jack @ 15:
It's more relevant to reality than anything that's come out of the White House since Jan 01.
As a father of a 16 yr old daughter, I say, "You go girls".
Instead of blaming the problem on someone else, why don't they try to take a good hard look at themselves?
pissed off patricia @ 21:
Should have began, It would be amazingly helpful. I doubt I would ever be amazingly helpful about anything.
CSL4L @ 20:
Wicca is slightly more credible than Scientology? I dunno. Religious mythology seems all equally silly to me. :)
Jeez, it's like accusing J.K. Rowling of glorifying witchcraft, or Dan Brown of smearing dogma.
Leadership @ 3:
"Kill Your TV" I always say...
See. Now this is one of the reasons that l left the Church of England. The hypocracy of some so called Christians is bad enough but the arguement has been brewing since the Ordination of women priests.
There are some extremely strange women involved with the church and l can remember one woman refusing communion from a female vicar. When asked about it she said that she found the idea "just wrong". I got in trouble for asking her if she thought black priests were wrong as well ;-)
Goes to show, you shouldn't go to the 10am service on a Sunday with only 2 hours sleep and a hangover!!!
dejah @ 1:
You said it!! Thanks!!! Imagine that, huh? Women wanting to join a culture where they're honored, not treated as 3rd class citizens. If I'm not mistaken, women make up the largest percentage of the population... a pretty strong group if ever mobilized and if ever they agree on things.
But who will clean the church and bake the cookies?!?!?!?
"Opposition to single mothers, to woman clergy, to sex outside marraige, to abortion, to equal rights for women in so many ways."
Men should help raise their children.
STD's aren't fun.
Are we talking about the Catholic Church or the Church of England?
equal rights?
On 11 July 2005 the General Synod of the Church of England, in York, voted to "set in train" the process of removing the legal obstacles preventing women from becoming bishops. Debate on the legislation was scheduled for February 2006. The process is currently underway but is not progressing quickly due to problems in providing appropriate mechanisms for the protection of those who cannot accept this development. On 7 July 2008 the General Synod held a more than seven hour debate on the subject, and narrowly voted for a national statutory code of practice to make provision for opponents, to be considered by the Synod in February 2009 - other provisions for opponents (such as separate structures or overseeing bishops) were backed by more than opposed them but failed to win the majority required across each of the three houses (bishops, clergy and laity)
pissed off patricia @ 21:
Get the DVDS! Seriously - Buffy has some of the smartest writing ever on television.
Karen @ 27:
Thing is Gardner claimed to have magic powers that he could use at will yet he failed to do anything with them.
You should also check out Eddie Izzard and his views on religion:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ope-1Zb5t-k
or Cake or Death:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNjcuZ-LiSY
My second wife was a Wicca when we met and she cast a spell over me!
Best signage I ever saw: Witches Parking Only - All Others Will Be Toad
It has NOTHING to do with Movies and more to do with the fact that Women are getting more intelligent. More women are excelling in college studies.
Face it, the more people know through education and science, the less they are bound to religions and delusional beliefs.
I actually feel a bit good about hearing this.
Thanks for the article.
Ukobserver @ 36:
One of the worlds funniest men (cross-dresser or no)
And yes, he is right on with his takes on religion.
CSL4L @ 35:
This hardly distinguishes Wicca and its founders from many other religious founders/leaders throughout history and duping people right now.
For the record, I'm a happy Anglican and a huuuuuuuuge Buffy fan, and it's no threat to my faith, nor likely to pull me away from the church.
Oh please! Like Wiccans don't have enough problems without McCain weighing in? I take your point, though I'd rather not spend another Samhain knowing that even more black cats are being tortured and killed by the ignorant. :-(
Karen @ 40:
Did the founder of other religions wives often consider their claims utter toss?
CSL4L @ 43:
Well, the wife of Joseph Smith's translator/helper in founding Mormonism saw through the whole thing. Relatives of cult leaders often see through it all. Sure. There are plenty of examples.
CSL4L @ 43:
did you mean udder toss, aren't witches usually depicted as old crags? (snark snark)
mam @ 34:
Well come on...wasn't Joss Whedon one of the writers? That guy's a friggin genius...check out Firefly or Serenity...and you'll see some good writin by gawd!
What'll happen if they ever start airing Charmed reruns on British TV? The Church of England would just have to call it quits at that point, I imagine. They'd be powerless against the Power of Three.
Ever wondered why there are so many religious people? Simple. You get brainwashed from day on of your life with the idea that if you don't believe in all their crap you'll go to hell to burn, and scream and suffer and choke, and burn and have pain and burn and cry for all eternity. That pretty scary for a young one... You want people to do stupid things? Scare them to death... Religion understood that a long time ago and it still works fine. :)
Is this just as dumb or worse than Conservative bloggers that relate the cell phone imaging virus in The Dark Knight to Bush's warrantless wiretapping and conclude that since Batman did it, it must be ok for Bush to do it as well.
Good fucking grief. Another stupid Christian author who has no idea what he or she is talking about. The "Buffy" character was created to be irreligious, and this insane moron wants to pretend that Buffy is a Wiccan? Good fucking grief.
No, nothing about the fictional construct is anything like either a Wiccan or a neo-Pagan. The buttfuck Christian extremists' and their comments on the source web page have [b]zero[/b] notion what constitutes any superior religions to theirs.
I'm not Wiccan, but I view it as a pretty harmless and non-intrusive religion, on a par with being atheist.
What confuses the issue is the way that de-railed Christians can't differentiate Pagan or non-Deity religions from "Devil worship."
The MSM is a clear and present danger.
Do all these female Wiccans look like Buffy? Where do I find my local recruiting office?
Fredric L. Rice @ 50:
Actually, I'm pretty sure they think all religions are inferior to theirs.
This Beckford guy is pissing into the wind. The Church of England is gay positive, and has been ordaining female priests for years. If you've got Netflix, check out "The Vicar of Dibley," comedian Dawn French's comedy about a small English village and their first female priest.
The Telegraph is widely regarded in England as the Newspaper of Conservative Kooks. Nobody takes it seriously. Beckford needs to come over here where we appreciate people like him. He could have his own show on CNN, like Glenn Beck.
Fredric L. Rice @ 50:
Someone never watched Buffy.
ThankGodImAnAtheist @ 48:
Agreed. And if a churchie did see the light and conclude that religion is BS, by rejecting the whole family's beliefs he/she may be ostracized or have to cut ties. Lots of religionists just go along to get along, IMHO. Atheists/agnostics know more about the history of religion than church members do.
Believe it or nuts to you, I've been practicing Wiccae for 30 years now, long before on this presentation in Hollywood. And I'm a dude.
Funny thing though is how the masculine form of the word is used for it's plural as well. For women it's Wicce. Probably the original source for the English word wicked. Hence my Latinized spelling.
As for the Church of England, they're seen as only an iinstrument of state. Tax dollars go there. They figure prominently at Royal Christenings, Coronations and funerals. In England there's controversy, as there is here, with the ordination of woman and homosexual priests. It's escalated to bishops.
I liken the English priesthood and bishops to that one uninspiring street preacher in the Monty Python movie The Life of Brian. "And one will not remember where lyeth his hammer, although he was using it the night before..."
I always thought Buffy looked a bit popish.
Christians are rather unoriginal... they'll shit their pants if they realized that they were the ones that stole the celebrations that surround Christmas and Easter from the pagans and even adapted some of their own rituals.
Geez, and my mother wonders why my sister and I don't take our daughters to church.
Funny, in an article from a few years back, Christianity Today didn't agree:
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2002/septemberweb-only/9-16-31.0.html
Another pro-Buffy piece from a Christian point of view:
http://thedoormagazine.com/archives/buffy.html
Buffy the Vampire Slayer: Theologian of the Year
miss_kitty @ 60:
A popish moppet?
John Doheny @ 55:
So it's like the foxnews of England?
If this is so then the paper is lying to scare up readership.
And someone at C&L either fell for it or they're trying to drive a wedge between Christianity and the left.
My dial-up is bogging down so this will probably be my last comment on the subject today.
If anyone wants to know why I chose Wiccae, the common explanation is we didn't choose it, we just found a name for what we were already doing.
I credit Wiccae for shocking my brain awake. I was your usual late 70's total slacker. I coulda hung out with Eric Forman and his friends in his basement, but I never was a joiner. I like to think some of my comments here seem insightful, when they're not about T&A jokes.
And as for magick on demand, one could do the same with Christians. Why can't a Catholic priest withdraw a bloody piece of meat from the communion cup, or a Baptist show any real change to a baptismee (?) other than being dripping wet?
Good for them. Go back to your roots. What always surprised me is that soon after the Twin Towers fell, more "Christian" women were switching over to Islam than the other way around.
BigD145 @ 66:
Wicca isn't their roots.
Gerald Gardner was a fraud.
yes! iknew it! obama's into dungeons and dragons, satan's game!
Fredric L. Rice @ 51:
I figured it was more of the character of Willow that they're referring to. Granted I'm no expert on either the show or Wicca, so I can't really say how accurate that is.
63 Yellow Elephant Safari Says: miss_kitty @ 60:
I always thought Buffy looked a bit popish.
A popish moppet?
______________________________________________________
Interesting choice of words. In the late medieval, early Rennaisance an accused Witch (male or female) would often be accused of causing harm to someone using what was called a poppet, which was obvious by it's use similar to the now more familiar voodoo doll.
To blame Wicca is a page out of the old man's notebook. Many women are abandoning certain religions because they don't give them a voice. Period. The Catholic Church has shamed women for centuries, outlaws contraception, and refuses to give women equal stature. Women are tired of being told they aren't holy enough, aren't worthy enough. I'm a laspsed Catholic. When the Vatican allowed pediphiles to escape prosecution and shuffled them to other parishes, that ended it for me.
sassafra @ 68:
Him and Colbert.
Wait, do we really have proof that Obama and Colbert or into D&D? Yeah, it's off-topic, but that's pretty nifty.
Thrillhouse @ 73:
Well Obama did go to a prep school and Colbert (who I think mentioned being a player in his youth) played on his show with Gary Gygax!
Rosenberg/Harris '12
Thrillhouse @ 73:
Colbert has made some deep references to D&D and Lord of the Rings on his show. I'm not sure about Obama though.
Gee, ya think women are leaving the church because it is patriarchal, mossbacked, hypocritical, secretive, ossified, calcified, sexist, venal, regressive and patently unenlightened?
Clearly we must do something to get this evil show off the air! Someone start a petition! I mean what the hell!
Wait what? Oh nevermind.
well, it's clear we had a good reason to break away from england and to establish separation of church and state.
Oh yeah, I forgot about the stuff on the Colbert Report.
Maybe if the Church of England would do something like what this church in Italy is trying, it could improve its image with young women. Or creep me out. It would accomplish one of those for sure.
BigIslandDave @ 77:
On 11 July 2005 the General Synod of the Church of England, in York, voted to “set in train” the process of removing the legal obstacles preventing women from becoming bishops. Debate on the legislation was scheduled for February 2006. The process is currently underway but is not progressing quickly due to problems in providing appropriate mechanisms for the protection of those who cannot accept this development. On 7 July 2008 the General Synod held a more than seven hour debate on the subject, and narrowly voted for a national statutory code of practice to make provision for opponents, to be considered by the Synod in February 2009 - other provisions for opponents (such as separate structures or overseeing bishops) were backed by more than opposed them but failed to win the majority required across each of the three houses (bishops, clergy and laity)
BaScOmBe hearts Rachel Maddow hates MSM @ 79:
Right. No connection between the church and the state here at all.
You're a riot. Don't make me laugh, I got a condition.:-P
ysbaddaden @ 65:
we're you referring to the body of christ or to a piece of abel after cain slew his ass.
oh, yeah! I'm a christian, just not the fascist kind.
and I was not struck by lightning! ain't that a hoot!
Thrillhouse @ 80:
I'm not Catholic but that aricle about nuns leaves me unable to write for a bit.
67 CSL4L
Actually it predates Gerald Gardner about 75 years with Charles Leland's Aradia: Gospel of the Witches. The core of Leyland's idea seemed to have come from Northern Italy and also Sicily where some old type beliefs were still current, but in decay, being passed word of mouth. He presented the book as an archeological study so that way he wasn't subject to the English Anti-Witchcraft laws that weren't repealed to right before Gardner's publications.
It has long since spiraled beyond Gardnerism/Alexandrianism.
But one can liken the Craft to many such disciplines like SL Macgregor Matthers New Order of the Golden Dawn, Rosicrucianism, Free-Masons (whence the term the Craft came from), Mesmerism, theosophy and spritualism in the late 19th early 20th century. Interestingly a lot of this material can be found in books about Theurgy, a Green form of
religion roughly concurrent with the earliest days of Christianity. Poetically, the Craft could be called a whirlpool of ideas, and undercurrent and perhaps a junk heap.
Interestingly, even today, Christians will credit themselves for rain because they prayed for it. They give the credit to God of course, but then not far behind is that their prayer group for rain (how it generally happens), had their prayer answered because of the strength of THEIR faith.
John Doheny @ 82:
establish, we did!
maintain, we did not!
It's not my fault! I'm a POW! [pissed off webweasel]
I imagine this subject deserves further inquisition.
BaScOmBe hearts Rachel Maddow hates MSM @ 86:
This would mark an ironic use of the term "establish," no?
Brad @ 87:
buffy can shackle me herself and dunk me all she wants. but only her.
it should all be supervised by mel brooks.
CSL4L @ 67:
You're probably right there. These women need to go back even further to the Drui (Druid plural). Christianity certainly borrowed heavily from that time period.
I stopped watching TV news a long time ago. Just this week we stopped taking the local "Big" newspaper (owned by NYTimes). None of it was relevant -- and more important -- you can't trust the news anymore. Hit pieces on Wiccans are NOT news.
What the media should be covering is truth -- not opinion pieces about endangered cultural dinosaurs such as churches and small-minded political movements that seek to blame everybody but themselves for their hatred of the rest of us.
Period.
It was the musical episode!
Karen @ 88:
as well as an ironic inquisitive!
Will they go after Sabrina next?
BaScOmBe hearts Rachel Maddow hates MSM @ 93:
If we're not careful, we might end up using the term "antidisestablishmentarianism" in a post.
As for Gardner there's some indication that he was horrified by the case of Bridget Murray (sp?) She was a young Irish woman murdered by her husband, and members of her own family in the late 19th century. The Irish had no really developed witch beliefs, but were horrified of fairies and changlings (fairies who take the place of humans.) Her husband kept torturing her and asking if she was a changeling, the torture was to drive out the demon. This occurred over several days until she fell in a fireplace, and laid on the living room floor burning to death, as her husband kept the other relatives away from rescuing her.
He only got a five year hard labor sentence.
Than several decades later a jack-of-all-trades middle-aged gardner was murdered. He was known for being odd, and supposedly able to talk to animals. His corpse was found crucified to a tree (maybe a fence post) with a horrified look on his face. He probably didn't know why he was being attacked. The investigating cop determined that it happened on the anniversary of Bridget Murray's death. Initially people wanted to think it was a ritual occultic murder, but the investigator determined it was done by a Christian, and although no one was arrested, he believed it was this one young man who was educationally challenged.
This was happening all across the USA too in the early part of the 20th century. Usually it was in rural areas like Tennessee, Kentucky and Alabama. Usually the witch murderer was declared insane and eventually released. Every now and then you hear of such cases now in Eastern Europe and Africa. I seem to recall one case recently where a young girl in Romania died while they were trying to perform an exorcism of a demon from her.
So a lot of modern Craft followers identify with these victims to a certain extent. In the USA it's most likely the victims of Salem, although it actually happened in Danvers, and most of the tortured and executed were probably Christians being prosecuted by other Christians, due to an outbreak of ergot poisining of the grain in the community.
Additionally, there were references to deluded woman in the 9th Century Canon Episcopii, that believed they flew through the night sky with the Goddess Diana. Interestingly in both Gerald Gardner and Margaret Murray's discredited book, there was no Goddess figure, only a nature God like Pan. However, it's highly debatable that any actual line exists between ancient days and the modern Craft. But than that's also true of the Anglican Church. The High Churchmen trace their Apostolic Succession to about the fourth century CE (supposedly there were three English bishops at the council of Nicea in 380 CE. And of course there's debate as to whether to trace the modern Church of England to Henry VIII dissolving of the Roman Catholic Church, or to King Harold, the Saxon king who fell at Runnymead, conquered by the Roman Catholic William the Conqueror.
Some Baptists try to trace their decent from the Anabaptists, who's likeliest progeny was the Quakers, Shakers, Amish and Mennonites. Our own American culture attempts to copy the Pagan Greco/Roman world in political structure and architecture, whilst Christians try to claim the inspiration for America came from the Bible.
This just trips me out. What's sad is that after England's churches were slammed by the Pope in Rome over their role in the witch hunts 600 years ago, they still think they have a lot of power. HA! I've been a witch for nearly 20 years now. What those shows did, putting all hollywood glam aside, is raise awareness of the religion.
Their politics were no different then as Republicans' is now- telling you who's to blame for it, and then making you afraid of it (i.e. GWOT, 9/11, etc). They're just pissed off because their country has decided to ignore the church and embrace Wicca/Paganism as an accepted form of religion, just like our Supreme Court did in the 80's. Sorry to burst the church's bubble, but we're here to stay this time!
Through cross and crown We will and have enslaved you all.
"that show hasn’t been on in years."
Reruns= "invoke often". :-)
Blessed be, C
Just leave the church.... period. Join humanity.
Karen @ 41:
oH. mY. gOD. Being a Wiccan myself, I have a strong desire to get into a huge 10 page essay on what makes this so incredibly false... but self-righteous atheism (not atheism as a whole) is too quick to goad foolish religious people into a fight between two blind men, neither one understanding the principles they are arguing -- so I'll just pass, and put this as concisely as possible.: Wicca is NOTHING like the church of the Christians, except in the iconography that was stolen from the pagans, and converted to suit the new religion. (no offense to Christians, there is a difference between the practicing people of a religion, and the political schemes its power structure created in the past)
Secondly, someone mentioned that Wicca is older than christianity, which is also not true -- it is a re-emergence (and reconstruction) of old pagan beliefs that were all but stomped out by the spread of christianity. It's a debate whether there is an unbroken line, which is possible but unlikely.
Thirdly, it may not seem important to anyone else, but the merit of this article is that one of the central tenets of Wicca is the meeting of opposites, which drives the whole universe: positive/negative, light/blackness, space/time, male AND female, moving to compliment each other for all of eternity. THAT is what makes this article important to women -- That ignoring equal position for women is a huge psychological and symbolic distortion of the principles that drive life itself. Wiccans don't view their religion like monotheists and dogmatists do; the myths are just that -- myths. (as opposed to biblical events seen as pure fact or rooted in reality) The myths are used to guide humanity through it's journey, like allegories. There will never be a Wiccan holy war, or crusades, or inquisition, or political oppression to prepare for the coming of the Goddess, or to spread the power of its priesthood, since it doesn't work like that, LOL. Enough of a difference between the two yet? Oh yeah, and wiccans don't comb the globe to find more people and convert them, you have seek your own path.
Thrillhouse @ 80:
From the article: "An Italian priest says he is organising the world's first beauty pageant for nuns to erase a stereotype of them as being old and dour."
I don't know about the beauty pageant part, but the 'old and dour' stereotype was rendered inoperative decades ago:
http://www.nunsploitation.net/
Oh Man... I was figuring if McSAME won the election (I don't think I can stand another 4 years of Bush/Cheney/McSAME), I might move to England, but now I see they have right-wing RELIGIOUS NUTS just like we do.
Hmmm. Maybe New Zealand...
Dlux @ 102:
Paging doc Freud.
IrishKevin @ 103:
Not exactly. They have right wing religious nuts, but they refrain from electing them Prime Minister.
So the church blames the messenger for pointing out to young women that the church is irrelevant to them, not itself for being irrelevant to young woman. Standard backwards church thinking.
Friggen formatting
Wise_Fool @ 101:
Right. You'll just pass on making a cogent argument against "self righteous" atheism, and just take a pot-shot at it.
I certainly wasn't arguing that Wicca and Christianity were largely alike. I only responded that the mere fact that its founder -- or at least the poster's purported founder; I honestly have no idea who founded Wicca or why, and readily admit that -- believed in magical powers that he could not demonstrate did not itself differentiate Wicca from other religions. That's all I was saying.
I know plenty of self-described "Christians" who regard Christianity the same way you regard Wicca. Allegorical and philosophical. Am I to take it that you do not literally believe in its supernatural tenets? If so, and if most Wiccans maintain likewise or if Wicca's tenets actually espouse such an interpretation, that's actually pretty cool. If, however, there are many Wiccans out there who literally believe that certain acts are necessary to appease certain actual, living gods, I would not be surprised if the faith eventually finds its adherents who feel the need to proselytise and convert. Especially if the supernatural tenets are to be believed on faith, and without evidence.
I lived with a Wiccan family for many months. They were splendid people. I liked them very much. I have nothing but fond memories. But they did literally believe many things they claimed were aspects of their religion. They literally believed them. They did not regard their myths as allegorical. They literally believed in gods and goddesses who would intervene in the world on their behalf when they requested it. They literally believed they could cast magic spells to protect themselves and their loved ones, and spite those who had done them wrong. They literally believed that sometimes working magic would be better than seeing a medical doctor to cure an ailment. On one occasion, as I sat on the front porch on a beautiful day reading a novel, they insisted that my safety demanded that I remain inside the house, as a dark spirit had taken over the porch.
If my language about "duping" people into believing things offended you, I apologize. I am on record here repeatedly advancing everyone's equal right to practice any religion or no religion. Moreover, I harbor no hatred or any ill-will toward people of any religion. You are all my equals as free citizens. I only meant to convey that Jesus' purported magical powers and whoever was listed as Wicca's founder's purported magical powers can't really be distinguished.
Certainly, different religions teach different normative and moral codes. In my opinion, from what I do know, Wicca's is infinitely more preferable than the monotheistic religions dominating (and endangering) the world. As for the metaphysical and supernatural tenets that seem to accompany almost every religion, I'll not say I respect them. I don't. Not the beliefs themselves. And it makes no difference to me if you believe in multiple magic beings who control different parts of the universe or if you believe in one triune deity who injected himself into the physical world through a virgin's birth canal in order to be sacrificed.
IrishKevin @ 103:
If you're expecting to escape irrationality and religiosity, there's really nowhere to go. Though the Scandinavian countries appear to have largely lived without a heavy religious presence in their societies.
If a character from a television show can cause the demise of a major religion, it could not really have been much of a religion!
90 BigD145
Actually some people connect Druid to Dryad, Greek wood nymphs.
The Druids were of the latter Celtic type to move to the British Isles, the Q's who were more patriarchal, their predecessors the P's no one knows much about, but they may have gone native with their matriarchal predecessors, who depending on the source, are called Iberi, Dravidian, Beaker People etc.
Roman records did refer to Druidesses who could call out chants over the battle site from nearby hills, that could raise painful boils on the faces of the legion.
So my guess is the Druids may've split their religion with women being responsible for parts and men for other parts, and they may've had little interest in what each other was doing.
And that's only in the Celtic world, you still have to consider Romans, Sicilians, Greeks, Egyptian, Gypsy, Saxon, Franks, Alanis, Rus etc.
Religion was the invention of ancients who wished to control the minions. Today we have the media - in all of it's wondrous forms -to do the same thing: control us through entertainment, distraction and lies.
As long as humans are not willing to just accept the fact of "being" alive and continue to push off responsibility for their individual actions onto some sky genie or wizard (or even a government), we're doomed to keep repeating our ridiculous history.
Maybe if the church stopped treating people like their only purpose in life is to give them money and little boys they wouldn't have so many problems keeping people.
Let's not forget that Buffy (at least on this side of the pond) airs on FOX. The same folks who, while giving a soapbox to buffoons like John Gibson and Falafel Warrior Bill O'Reilly, also brought us wholesome fare like Temptation Island.
"Hmmm. Opposition to single mothers, to woman clergy, to sex outside marraige, to abortion, to equal rights for women in so many ways. What could possibly make young women “imagine” traditionalsim and hierachies in church?"
Push that slippery slope Baby! Who needs traditional values anyway?!?
Buffy the Christofascist slayer. Go Buffy!
E in MD @ 112:
Could you be more ignorant?
Er.
Buffy has been off the air for five years. The movie that served as the creator's "first run" at the series was thirteen years ago. I don't think this show has the impact they think it has. Seeerriously.
Not to mention, Wiccanism? Came from England. Their idea first. A low-rated TV show that ran on two different low-rated TV networks isn't going to change the face of society, people. Fer crineoutLOUD already.
These women are just trading one delusion for another.
Eh, whatever floats your boat. Just leave me out of it.
The problem with English Paganism is that Pre-Constantine Romans polluted it with their own religion when they were trying to wipe it out.
And if they didn't elminate almost all traces of it Chances are the Catholic Church did or the Anglical Church did or Cromwell did.
Well, it's like the fox news of the UK, except that it's far far to the left of Fox. You have to be careful calling anything in the UK conservative in American terms.
It's typical that the church would blame something other than their unappealing and sexist policies for a decrease in attendance. Given the choice, and that's all religion is to begin with, most women would rather be around a message of empowerment and affirmation, rather than guilt and sexism. But because they're convinced that their religion is dictated by the almighty, no priest is going to admit it. It's those evil TV shows!
Karen @ 108:
The highest percentage of atheists in a country, outside of China, is in Scandinavia. They also have the highest standard of living, and are among the healthiest and most well-educated people in the world. Plus they're not bad looking either.
Icelander @ 121:
Scandinavia isn't a country it's a region.
stupid atheist.
Why you're at it why don't you call Canada part of America or Ireland part of England?
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