Biden: 'Hillary might have been better VP pick'
Joe's a good guy overall and a stand up man for saying this, but I happen to agree with him.
Joe Biden told supporters at a town hall Wednesday afternoon that Barack Obama might have been better off choosing Hillary Clinton as his running mate.
"Make no mistake about this, Hillary Clinton is as qualified or more qualified than I am to be vice president of the United States of America. Let's get that straight," Biden said testily when a voter told Biden he was glad the Delaware senator had been chosen and not Clinton.
"She's a truly close personal friend and she is qualified to be President of the United States of America, she's easily qualified to be Vice President of the United States of America and quite frankly it might have been a better pick than me," he continued."I mean that sincerely, she's first-rate."
We would have solidified our base in the nutshell.
As a pragmatic exercise, I asked hundreds of rank and file Democrats, many Obama supporters in Denver and in the Big Tent about the VP pick and 99% said he should have picked Hillary for party unity. Everybody liked Biden, but thought it would have rocked Denver and the rest of the party, including the media. Not scientific, but if you walked the gauntlet a few times to the Pepsi Center in the blistering heat, you would know what I mean.
Most of the on-line community that supported Obama were against it there except for a few. On the other hand, McCain solidified his base with his VP pick.
As the election goes I'm not saying all is lost, far from it, Obama still should be our next president, but I'm just making an observation.
I and many other observers are absolutely convinced that the reason Hillary is not the Vice-Presidential nominee of the Democratic Party is because she didn't want to be. Her speeches in Florida have been supportive and fantastic. Can't we take her for her own damn word?
NO means NO. And yet so many of her supporters think she really doesn't mean it. I'm tired of this political date rape, folks.
What is it that you people don't get about the Clintons. They are corporate self serving whores that shoved NAFTA down our throats.
NAFTA is the biggest destroyer of the middle class and you think putting Hillary on the ticket would be change?
It would be Bill's same corrupt buddies behind the scenes.
Clinton may have been 1,000 times better than Bush, but he was still a self serving monster.
[edited. keep it brief and especially keep it civil - sitemonitor]
I agree Bluegal... I would be willing to bet Obama asked her, and she turned it down. I think she wants to become head of the Senate, use her influence for 8 years and then be Obama's successor... Think about it.
Obama wins, who is next?
I believe Hillary might have made it easier to get elected, but Biden has better chemistry with Obama and therefore will do a better job in governing as a part of his team. I have nothing but respect for Hillary and believe that if Obama gets elected, she can be a better influence as a senator than she would have been as VP.
Perhaps Joe shouldn't be so forthright!
He is still a better pick than Palin.
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John, I think that maybe you're taking the PUMA folks a little too seriously. The progressive base IS solidified behind Obama. Any woman who decides to vote for McCain simply because he picked the "correct" gender for VP is irredeemably vapid and is most certainly not a part of the progressive base.
this was a nice piece of humble pie from biden....he's not
perfect but he's a class act. i would have accepted hillary
also. obama picked biden. i am personally happy with that end of story. some people want to talk about needing hillary i'd rather say we want hillary to be part of this.
You know, we really do have to let this Clinton thing go. It does us no good whatsoever to speculate on what might have happened IF .... There is simply too much complexity in the whole set of issues surrounding this campaign and the Clintons in particular. Many, many love her. I will tell you that there also a whole lot of people across the party spectrum that hate her - justified or not.
Biden is trying to make it clear that there are plenty of extremely competent folks - including women - among the Democrats and is refusing to get baited because Hillary still has so many avid fans.
Our task is to support the ticket and to support Hillary as she pursues what I know will be some important issues and legislation in the Senate. We have a ton of work to do and have enough distractions as it is due to the silliness of a weak-kneed, celebrity-driven news media.
Idiotic thing to say the on the campaign trial.
Everyone needs to remember if Sen. Obama wins the election, he cannot make the changes we need alone. He will need important and powerful members in Congress to push legislation for health care, energy, infrastructure, the war and the economy. He will need people like Sen. Clinton, in Congress, ready to fight for those changes.
I believe that Sen. Clinton can make a greater and more lasting contribution to the restoration of America in Congress than she could as President. The President gets 4 to 8 years. Congress can mean, for some, many more years of getting the job done.
sturg111 @ 4:
You beat me to it. Hilary would have likely helped the ticket win, but then what? Hilary Clinton would have been the political choice; Joe Biden was the governing choice. By picking Biden, Obama put country over politics. Let's hope there are enough sensible people in the country who appreciate this and reward him with victory in November.
i agree with bluegal. not only that but there's the problem of the extra baggage hillary brings with her, namely bill.
My hope is that Obama's got a better job in mind for her than VP.
Special Prosecutor comes to mind......
Picking Hillary would've been a very calculated political move, and would've been seen as Obama putting his presidential ambitions before the good of the country, which is pretty much what we're witnessing with McPalin now. Furthermore, Clinton would've energized conservatives the same way as Palin, Clinton would've brought NOTHING to the ticket at all, and will let conservatives throw all that drama from the dem primaries into voters' faces.
If Biden were to drop out now (however unlikely that is) it would've been as disastrous for Obama as if McCain drops Palin. Biden is an excellent choice, let's stand up for him 100% all the way to the end.
yeah @ 6:
No Rick Roll? I'm disappointed. :)
I never liked Obama, although I consider myself to be more of a Democrat than a Republican. Joe Biden is the only reason I support Obama. If it would have been Obama/Clinton, I wouldn't have bothered even following this election cycle any longer. Biden is my man and Biden will kick Palin's ass.
Doesn't she want to run in 2012, or would she wait for Obama to try for and complete a second term? If the former, then can you really expect Obama to want her as part of his team? I don't find this aspect addressed when people discuss this topic
I have mixed feelings about this because I think Hillary is very well qualified and would have made either a great President or great Vice President. Having said that, the Obama camp did not know that McCain was going to choose a woman (hell, he didn't even know) and I'm not sure it would have changed the dynamics that much. If McCain had gone ahead and picked Palin after Hillary had been tapped, then the race would have taken on a much different tone. I don't see McCain's camp doing that (after all misogyny is McCain's middle name), and they would have gone after Hillary the way the are accusing everyone of going after Palin, the exception being that Hillary was already vetted. It would have been open season on Bill and the Clinton camp has been reluctant to cough up his library donor lists. This would have been an issue. I guess we could say, what if?, but it's just a guessing game. I believe both Biden and Hillary would have brought different strengths to the table. Looking back it would have made a difference, but none of us had a crystal ball at the time. It isn't doing our candidates any justice to be second guessing this at this junction of the campaign. Just my humble opinion.
hell shed have made a better president, let alone vp and i still want kucinich!
I am a great Hillary supporter but it would have broken my heart to see her not to be at the top of the ticket. I really thought it would be much better for her to be the prez candidate and Obama to be VP. Obama would have had time to gain more experience and exposure. But what's done is done, and I will vote for Obama with no problems. I have always liked Biden, and after reading his "testy" comments, I like him even more.
Those 99% that you polled john, had 100% of their heads up their respective asses. Coming in second when you felt that you should be anointed president, does not score you second place. The Clintons both need to know they damaged their party and they need to be doing everything, pronto, to get poll numbers back to where they belong.
Some thoughts should not be spoken. What I have heard about Biden though, this seems par for the course.
but he is still a better pick than Palin...hell, a pig with lipstick is a better pick than Palin.
sorry could'nt resist.
Let's assume that Obama thought Hillary was a good pick for VP. However, Hillary fired the flames of disunity in that she did not concede immediately, the way she finally did concede, her wishy-washy support of Obama and her insistence that she speak at the convention and that the votes be counted. I can't blame her, it was an historical moment for her and for women, in general. However, many people thought it would have shown weakness on Obama's part to have chosen her for VP and the MSM would have a field day pointing that out. Hillary basically put Obama in a lose-lose situation.
Also, all of the points I made above also fired the flames of hatred among Republicans, regardless of their cheerleading for her. They felt she would be easy prey for their slime and mudslinging.
All that being said, you cannot undo what has been done; you just have to move forward. Joe Biden is as qualified as anyone to be president. He wasn't exactly my choice, but I accept and support him.
nothing would have motivated the right like Clinton on the ticket. I am sorry, too many people dislike her. We would not win with Clinton.
is it over now? Biden concedes to billary?
Sounds like it over. Some lil blowhard from Wasila Alaska shows up at the convention. The Obama camp doesn]t know what to do after some lipstick pig comment?
I cant believe it. Its all over.
Tro Dem a Bone, Joe.
Arrrffff.
yeah @ 6:
Thanks, we can all use more of this.........oh, and more cowbell, too......go Tampa Bay Rays.
Now Biden is pandering to the John Amato vote. lol
Q. What do you get when you put lipstick on a pig?
A. This.
Yellow Elephant Safari @ 14:
I think she would make a Great Attorney general or Secretary of State.
i disagree. this is said in hindsight of sarah palin (a woman) being chosen for VP
This is a Biden "gaffe"?
The truth is, Hilary would make a great VP. Also a great President. But she will be an amazing Senate Majority Leader.
So Biden's answer was honest and blunt, if not exactly on message.
The good news is that there are at least a dozen great VP candidates in the Democratic party, and any one of them would have been appropriate. Men and women of character, with relevant experience, honor, and unique skills and talents.
The Republicans, however, think that Sarah Palin was their best option.
Hmm.
It seems to me before the primaries, FOX news (read Hannity) said the greatest thing to happen to the Republican Party is for Hillary to get the nod for President because she would ignite the Republican right to go and vote overwhelmingly for McCain. Now they are saying she should be VP??????? Hypocracy, thy name is Republican.
i don't believe biden was that serious. he is a friend to hillary and showing some respect. i don't believe hillary wanted the position. hillary would have changed this race big time...but that's no longer an option.
I don't think Biden should have said it, he could have stopped after 'very well qualified' These kinds of riffs and off handed comments will be used by the right. All mkkkkain wants to do is use up news cycles until the election. Every news cycle used up with these kinds of comments, valid or not, is one day that questions about mkkkain and palin are not asked or answered.
thomas @ 15:
"Picking Hillary would've been a very calculated political move,"
Oh yeah...We wouldn't want any "political calculation" to get in the way of another Democratic defeat...now would we?
This is why we lose over and over again.
CMINCA @ 31:
Yes but Special Prosecutor is so deliciously ironic. No?
The only thing that would have come close to galvanizing the Republicans like Palin would have been the thought of the Clintons in the Whitehouse. The Clintons are very self serving, and Congress saw record losses while Bill was president.
I also think doomsayers like John are trying to fix a problem that isn't there. Obama is still ahead in electoral college votes and we've seen from the primaries that's all he'll be focused on. He's not going to care if a million more people in Texas are voting for McPain because he's not going to win Texas.
The other problem with Palin is the Senate Democrats may not win as many seats as they'd hoped, but a Clinton VP pick wouldn't have made a bit of difference there. It's an evangelical pick that is getting out the church vote, not the lack of Hillary.
So stop whining, do what you can, and quit crying over something that hasn't happened. That is one thing I like about the Republicans, when they face adversity they gather the wagons and soldier on.
99%? I don't know very many people who think she was the best Veep choice. You do realize that hatred of HRC would further galvanize the right. I'm not saying she is anything less than an awesome politician and adept statesman, but I just don't think she'd be the right choice.
Switching to Hillary would be an admission that Palin is super powerful. Imagine how the pundits would roar about the desperation in the Obama camp! Don't do it, Barack!
I would have gotten behind anyone Obama picked, but I'm glad he went with Biden. I think he was looking ahead to governance, and with Clinton on the ticket you had four strong personalities running around in the White House. She'll be better as a cabinet member, or in the Senate. Don't forget, she's been a terrific Senator.
what is the point of this post??? what a winning mentality the progressive movement has. biden should keep his trap shut. he might as well come out and say obama made a mistake in picking him. why don't we focus on the future and the choice that was made???
mench @ 26:
That is not at all what he said. He was standing up for Hillary's honor, that's all. He's the VP candidate, he's accepted it and is committed to it. C'mon now.
Totally disagree. 8 more years of Clinton-bashing. No way.
I like Hillary. But too much baggage.
I've been saying this all along. "Hillary is a no-brainer" yet more then half the people on this blog didn't want Hillary as a VP pick. Hillary would have neutralized the Palin pick and then some, in my opinion. It wasn't very smart for Biden to go as far as he did though in claiming that Hillary might have been a better pick then him. It shows a lack of confidence and Rove politics will take that clip and drill it into the ground! Just watch!
Not the smartest thing to say while campaigning...
Hillary would have been a good pick too, but it's possible she didn't want it. The decision wasn't only Obama's to make.
Keep acting as if it matters folks. Americans will get the puppet, er, prezdent Diebold decides they'll get.
The whole process is one big farce, two sides of the same coin, with very little difference other than the window dressing.
Who was it that said, "Politics is the entertainment branch of organized crime"?
If you think "change" is going to happen, dream on. The U.S. will be at war in Iraq as long as they've been in Korea, and it matters not one iota who is in the Oval office.
Wake up folks, you're all living in the United States of Exxon/Mobil.
Barrett D @ 32:
Exactly. And everyone did know that McCain was considering Kay Bailey Hutcenison, a woman. It isn't a woman issue; it is a Sarah Palin, creationist, nutball, fanatical and radical right-wing, hate-mongering "Christian" issue. No one thought McCain would make such a pandering, political and radical choice.
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Woulda, coulda shoulda. Now that the speculation of who the VP pick for Obama was, let's speculate if it had been Hillary? This is a dangerous argument, almost defeatist. I don't think there would have been any smooth sailing with Rovian tactics afoot. And I don't think McCain would have picked Palin if Clinton was his VP pick. So all of this is just not productive.
There's enough to do and say to get Obama elected. Let's concentrate on that.
Hillary would have made this combination unbeatable, no doubt, but again, it did not mean a good choice as far as the Obama/Clinton relationship in the W.H.
In fact, the next four years might have played out like some bad political reality show, and Hillary would have also polarized the country more than Biden could ever hope to.
Hillary is immensely talented and I dont think she ever wanted to be Vice President, she wanted to be President. I imagine to insiders this is well known, and likely the reason she was never even considered (among many)
Joe Biden is a good choice and should allay voters fears in November when considering "the bad Disney movie" of Sarah Palin being President in the next 4 years
Yellow Elephant Safari @ 38:
She would be busy for eight years, round the clock and then some.
Senator Biden, can we talk? Vice presidential nominations are NOT about qualifications. They should be, but they aren't. If they were, Sarah Palin would not be on the Republican ticket, because there are several hundred better qualified people McCain could have chosen.
If Hillary had been Obama's choice, we'd have had Bubba front and center throughout the campaign. This would have energized the Christian right and brought Monica back into the picture. Obama chose you to keep Bubba Clinton away from the campaign, not because of your long experience in the Senate. Sorry to burst your bubble on that...or maybe you already knew it.
Washington Post .... Enters the Scrubbing Game?
It looked like 1) just a technical glitch or hacking 2) the usual case of a news outlet pulling back a story to do more checking 3) someone pushed a button too early on a story being held for a later date 4) a bombshell report was killed because of pressure from a presidential campaign 5) none of the above.
We still don't know for certain, but The Washington Post says it had something to do with an unedited caption to a video that should not have gone up. But what about the video itself? And a separate documents file?
http://www.eandppub.com/2008/09/post-golisano.html
IMHO it was Bill Clinton who is responsible for making it untenable for both Obama as well as Hillary that she accept the VP candidate role. He brought in the Republican thugs who ran her campaign and it was his arrogance and misplaced sense of entitlement that sealed her fate. He ought to thank God she even speaks to him much less ever seek his counsel in the future.
Can we please stop this? You don't see the Republicans out there saying Romney or what's-his'-face should have been elected. What Biden just said is really beautiful, gracious -- and demonstrates clearly why Bam picked him. He sounds like the victorious athelete giving his opponent the proper due. But I'm really surprised Amato is picking this scab. This is not what we need. No way Obama could have governed with Hillary -- and Bill. Period.
Hillary disqualified herself when she made the "I have a lifetime of experience, McCain has a lifetime of experience, Obama has a speech." statement over and over again. She didn't just say it once. If she wanted to be VP she shouldn't have said that. Period.
Go Obama. www.BarackObama.com
Bloody-Christos, let the Hillary thing go...the women may have stood for change, but a rotating door going "Bush, Clinton, Bush, Clinton" is no method of change I would support for this country. We need a fresh start from people not indirectly involved in Cocaine trafficking, use, distribution, or any other scandal involving the state of Arkansas. Biden may not have been the best choice to win votes, but he's a better push in the direction of change than Hillary will EVER be....
@57:
"untenable" is exactly the word I was going to use. I think the Clinton camp made her choice untenable. It would've been over-analyzed as Obama bowing to pressure; and I don't even know, how often has it happened that a nominee picked a running mate that lost against them in the primaries?
UUUUAAAAAuuuuuuuu
Great blog. Good post. Comming back...
I´m TC and my fans call me TC
kisses
TC
http://amerikasucks.blogspot.com
greg white @ 49:
So wtf do you suggest? What makes you think we aren't smart enough to figure this shit out? Do you think you're the only one with a goddamn smart chip?
SO smarty pants, since trying to kick against the pricks is not a worthy task in your exalted opinion, why don't you show us the way, ya fuckin oracle.
".....The 2004 Yankees would have been a better team to represent the American League in the 2004 World Series. I mean, who are these dirty, unknown Red Sox? They have pine tar on their helmets. They admit they are idiots.
The Yankees are far better known and liked. They would have rallied the American League base. The Cardinals are going to sweep the Sox. All is lost....."
I think more should be said about Biden. He is a class act. He is real. What you see is what you get. He takes the train to and from work each day. Sure, he gets in trouble with his "off-the-cuff" remarks. I can relate to that. He has modesty and self deprecating humor.
Dammit! I just like the guy.
Couldn't say all that about Mrs. Clinton, sorry.
rekroc @ 7:
It isn't simply PUMA. Many women are thrilled to have the opportunity to break the glass ceiling. They do not care about issues; they care about gender. The assaults on Palin are taken personally by these women, and they refuse to consider any evidence that casts her in a negative light. I am appalled by such people, and wish they had the brains to recognize the harm they are doing, but they don't.
Obama needs to reach out to these women. It is my feeling that they are basically white housewives. He might get some traction out of assigning a white woman as a press secretary and splashing her all over the cable news programs.
Jeff @ 59:
Totally. She ran a Rovian campaign.
Sarah Palin, Commandette-in-Chief wannabee, says war with Russia may be necessary.
http://www.abcnews.go.com/Politics/Vote2008/story?id=5778018&page=1
JGR @ 46:
Anyone who'll be voting for McSame because Palin's on his ticket would have done so regardless of whether Obama picked Hillary to be his running mate. Palin is the polar opposite of Clinton on just about every political issue. And the people who can't be bothered to keep up with the issues will just treat the election like a beauty pageant and vote for the prettier face.
It's not too late for Biden to step down and Hillary to step up. Maybe it's a secretive part of the BIG plan?!....sorry wishful thinking....still drunk off the Palin Kool-aid.
Hillary put Obama in a position whereby he could not pick her. Period. Hillary would have been his choice if she had bowed out gracefully ...
... when she lost 5 weeks in a row. Even though every rational person knew that Obama was going to win - despite the "mathematical possibility" of a Clinton win. Heck on Super Tuesday, Edwards had a mathematical possibility, but already bowed out. She didn't even acknowledge Obama's victories ... rather dismissing them as "small state" wins ... not as important as Ohio, or PA... or...that was a poor decision. Finally, the spirit of her campaign was the complete opposite of his.
This is not bad-mouthing her. She made her choices ... She chose to fight to the finish and as a result ... hurt the party in the process. She would have easily been the candidate (despite her record high negatives outside deep-blue states).
Robert Lockwood Mills @ 55:
I think maybe Biden is trying to make it about qualifications: his qualifications, Clinton's qualifications and Palin's LACK of qualifications.
This has probably been stated but: Hillary would have been a good POLITICAL pick for VP; Biden is the better pick for the OBAMA Administration! Clearly both would have been good picks but I think Sen. Clinton would still have her sights set on the big seat. Clearly, she may launch a campaign in 2012 and would've even if she was the VP. Its all just speculation right now but I think it was big of Biden to cast a vote of support for the Senator.
If Obama had picked Hillary, McCon wouldn't have picked Palin. All this woulda, shoulda, coulda is not helping our party.
BTW ... if Clinton was on the ticket ... you better believe that McCain picks a Huckabee, or Romney. There NEVER would have been a Palin - Clinton face-off!
If Hillary was picked, The Limpballs and O'Lielys of the world would be trashing her every day. Monicagate, Whitewater, everything. Their hatred of Hillary blinds them. Would she had been a better pick? Maybe. Either way, Palin isn't going to do McCain any good. When woman learn of her Pro-life views and her distain of contraceptives, they will run away in droves.
Obama would have looked like the Clinton's puppet if he chose Hillary. There is no way Obama would have appeared to be legit if he picked Hillary
Without reading the comments, I gotta say, I disagree. The republicans base would have been galvanized to vote against Hillary. The cockroaches would have come out of the woodwork and we would be reliving the 90's, politically speaking (despite the obvious economic advantage). Biden shut them up for the time being. You really don't see them attacking Biden with nearly the same venom that they would spit for Hillary. Then the entire election would have been about the VP picks and even more away from the more important candidates.
Dems constantly underestimate the unrelenting, fanatical hate that the conservatives in this country have for all things Clinton. It's just impossible to understand.
You know what? Who cares? We have 50 some days to go after the cranky old dude at the top of the GOP ticket.
He has a record of not supporting the troops (insert all his votes here). Ready to lead? No.
He doesn't know how many houses he owns! Ready to use Google Maps? No.
He thinks your economic problems are all in your head (show clip). Ready to address the economy? No.
He claims to be a reformer (show lobbyists running campaign). Ready to bring change? No.
Hammer McCain on every wrong vote, bad move and stupid phrase he's ever said. Make the election about issues AND about character. Don't mention Palin ever again. Hit McCain and hit him hard.
You are doing more than making an observation; you--and not Obama's choice for vp--are scuttling party unity by ignoring the fact that Mrs. Clinton will serve at the pleasure of the president in a position much more focused to her unique strengths than performing the vp duties, which largely are ceremonial. Mrs. Clinton will be the boss no matter what capacity she serves in the Obama Administration. As vp she would always be second-fiddle-- uncharacteristic of anyone named Clinton. Supreme Court Justice Clinton provides a very strong visual as one possibility.
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Hillary Clinton is in the best position she can possibly be in. She can jockey to one day become Senate Majority Leader. She can hold her senate seat for decades and make her mark as the best NY senator since Bobby Kennedy - whose seat she possesses. She would make a great AG, Secretary of State, or US ambassador to the UN. She has options.
Being Obama's VP pick would limit her options assuming Barry won.
Jo @ 66:
Been thinking that of late, too... Biden has really been a class act.
(If only he was a PA Senator - he wouldn't have gotten on the wrong track of the Bank/bankruptcy issue train!)
The dems blew it running Obama.
Biden was poor judgement like so many of his associates.
She would have galvanized the right far more than Palin is.
Traditionalist/Conservative types voting for a black man for President? With Hillary by his side, not so likely. Too weird for them. But they just might vote for the black man who picked an older and wiser VP, instead of the white guy who picked an inadequate gal for VP.
I think when Joe Biden said that Hillary was "first-rate" he was taking a jab at Sarah Palin for being second-rate. Praising Hillary showed how gracious he was to a rival for the VP spot and I respect him for it. It's what they used to call good sportsmanship.
john, I believe I have never disagreed with you in the past but you are flat out wrong this time
first, if Obama picked Hillary McCain would NOT have picked palin, then they would have energized their misogynists AND Clinton haters AND Hillary haters
the two MOST beatable candidates on the democratic ticket in a country of bigots and misogynists were Obama and Hillary, we played right into their hands, fielding them both would have made it that much easier to get out their vote
In other news it is time for Hillar and Bill to campaign on the road for Barry in the five key battleground states: Ohio, North Carolina, New Hampshire, Virginia, and Iowa. Barry will win if he wins those 5 states. Enough said.
We're waiting for the Clintons to act.
Bullshit!
Biden was a fairly smart political move. To become as pandering as Johnny McMav?
Hell no!
Supreme Court Justice Hillary Clinton
Attorney General Hillary Clinton
Um, John? Is everything allright?
Were you and I watching the same primaries? I seem to remember Hillary taking every opportunity she could to say that not only was Obama somehow not qualified, but that McCain was somehow more "presidential material" than he was.
I love your blog to death, but let's get real. Hillary is done playing sidekick for good. If she were VP, she wouldn't be able to keep from getting in Obama's way -- her ego is just too big.
greg white @ 49:
This is Bullshit! Ever hear of the Supreme Court you moron? Ever heard of the Dominionist cult that Sarah Palin belongs to? You asshole!
Wake the fuck up yourself! There is a great difference - a gulf - a vast ocean of difference between Dems and Thugs.
Jeeze, you sound just like those ivory-towered elitists, who sit back in their safe house and spout nonsense and could give a rat's arse about what it takes to make it outside the walls of academe.
They may have solidified their base but they would have lost my vote, and many other independents like me. This election will mark the first time I've ever voted for a candidate from either of the major two parties, and I wouldn't have done so if Hillary was on the ticket.
getalife "whiners" @ 85:
Somebody throw out this wingnut ditto-head piece of unadulterated Palin menstruation.
While you may be right that if Obama had chosen Clinton it would have solidified the base, imagine how much more it would have solidified the republican base against Obama? Palin is doing alot but to run against Hillary Clinton...they would love that chance. Especially here in the South, where everyone seems to hate her for no reason at all.
Republicans will do WHATEVER IT TAKES to win.
Democrats will do what's RIGHT, even if it means loosing.
That's how it seems.
OT; ABC News is releasing some of Palin's interview. The woman is loco. I guess we are in Iraq to fight a holy war. And she believes we may have to attack Russia if they invade another country. Shudder.
The anti Clinton Palin finally talked to the press.
miss_kitty @ 64:
Reeeeeer. Need some Zanax with that catnip?
jim @ 25:
I shared this fear. I also worried about Bill being a loose cannon, feeling he wouldn't be able to keep from meddling. But candidly, when it came right down to it, I don't believe this troglodytes in this country could have handled the idea of a biracial man and a strong woman on the ticket. Especially a woman who arouses such intense emotions, esp. from the right.
Perhaps someday we'll be more advanced than that. I, for one, am not holding my breath.
We would have solidified our base in the nutshell.
Bull. Shit.
For better or for worse, she is one of the most divisive figures in US politics. If ANYTHING would get the disaffected Republican voters to the polls, it would be the specter of Hillary as VP or even Pres.
Also - if you're Obama, do you REALLY want Bill and Hillary around you in the White House? Really???
Finally, you can't make your campaign about a break from the past and bring in Hillary as your VP. That would have been idiotic.
However... would Biden make that statement if McCain had picked Holy Joe?
Hillary believes in a strong Executive Branch with powers to declare war without Congressional approval. That's a deal breaker for me. In my lifetime I have been witness to two Presidents given that power, and I have seen both abuse it. Noone would question a defensive response to a direct attack - and Congress would certainly not hesitate to give retroactive authority...as in the, ah-hem, warrantless wire taps. Besides, she does not want the Vice-Presidency...I would rather see her as our representative to the United Nations for the next 8 years...then come back to me with a Presidential run.
NO means NO. And yet so many of her supporters think she really doesn’t mean it. I’m tired of this political date rape, folks.
I totally agree. And if she really DOESN'T mean what she's saying, what does that suggest about her as a person / politician?
Well, I didn't actually hear Joe say that - is there a video/sound? I've listened to Biden talk for most of his career, and it is important to know the context and hear the tone when he makes a comment like this. I think he was just putting out a bit of "false modesty" - it's his way.
I doubt picking Hillary would've solidified the base (whoever that is in the Dem party?)
for a lot of the reasons others have mentioned. But, even if you think it would have solidified the party, it sure as hell would have made governing extremely difficult for President Obama.
JGR @ 95:
Geez.
New to this blog?
I have been here for years.
Johnny2BadObamaIsAWimp @ 100:
Quite possibly, J2BOIW. Quite possibly. However, I think the term you might have been looking for is pre-frontal lobotomy
John,
I can see why you stayed nuetral during the primary.
Saying something nice about Hillary has them foaming at the mouth.
Geez.
candideinnc @ 67:
This "glass ceiling" nonsense that the McPain campaign stole from Hillary is nothing but a charade, just like the sexism crap they're rolling out now. And I maintain that anyone who resorts to some mindless gender argument as an excuse to vote for McPain is putting on an act. Either that, or he/she is too stupid to reliably target in a political campaign.
Hang on, she's a lying sack of shit!
How can anybody trust her after all the underhanded crap she did?
One final thing ... the Democratic women (and there are a lot of them!) have deeply disappointed me... They should be out HAMMERING Palin for her disingenuous statements ("thanks but no thanks" .. "Cut taxes" ... "For ANWAR" ... etc.)
They need not talk about experience! Simple talking point:
"We do not know much about this woman (not "Governor", not "Governor Palin", not "VP Candidate"), but from what we know, she is either disingenuous, or worse, a liar."
It is not Biden or Obama's job! This...folks ... is WHY the Republicans win. They fight as a team! So far: Debbie Wasserman Schultz came out forcefully on the day of the announcement, Boxer did recently. That's it!
Where's McCaskill (in MO), Klobachar (MN), Granhold (in MI), Clinton (in NY), Napolitano (in AZ) ... ???
getalife "whiners" @ 107:
Amato's wrong on this one. Hillary would have been an awful pick because her people would have brought their drama into the decidedly drama-free Obama campaign. With their endless primary battle still fresh in people's minds, it would have been laughable to see them ready to run the country side-by-side. If Obama loses this election, it won't be because of party unity. There aren't 18 million votes out there that Obama would have had if only he had chosen Hillary. And if Obama won the election with Hillary at his side, then Obama wouldn't get to run the White House as he wants but as a compromise with her.
Furthermore, she doesn't have foreign policy experience. She just doesn't have it. Biden's humility is nice but he was the better choice and I'm glad Obama picked him.
This addition to crooks and liars is totally counterproductive. Why even talk about it. TAKE IT OFF THE SIGHT. Biden's the VP. Case closed- end of story. Republicans win because they stay on message. Liberals are all over the map-- you are even off the map with this story.
We need to attack McCain and send Obama's message of hope every day for the next 55. Get with the program or shut the hell up. Do you have any idea what is riding on this election? This election is a referendum on an Iran war and perhaps our very democracy.
I think McCain would have picked someone besides Palin, and they would have drudged up sex-scandal rumors against the Clintons.
Didn't you know that this is how Republicans are? No matter who the Democratic nominee was, the GOP was going to attack. They have done it in every single election. It is virtually a part of their DNA, it's like a sexual orientation for them, to attempt to sack Washington DC on a regular basis, give all their friends free money, crap on the American people, and leave a smoking crater in their wake. And they will do anything to achieve this goal. Even if we had wise old Solomon as our candidate.... the GOP would attack him.
I like Hillary, but I am content to take her word: She didn't want to be VP.
Instead of sitting around and second-guessing Obama's choice... let's try to win, eh? Biden is not a flashy political pick, but he is good for Obama. And I trust him to be Obama's VP.
And the issues....the issues were tailor made for Democrats to win.
I would have never voted for a ticket with Clinton on it, for what it's worth.
Never.
dumb, Dumb, DUMB thing to say while campaigning.
Joe's undermined Obama's decision making ability. This is already getting spun wildly out of control.
We're going to lose this fucking election. I simply cannot believe it.
How in the hell can we lose this?
the clintons are part of the problem. they are establishment. they are divisive. bill would be running amok.
fuck that.
obama has got this and he sure as fuck doesn't need clinton to help him do it.
word.
And this is how we dems lose - pecking each other to death while the repugs spew their lies and wave their flags.
Things are not looking all that good as Obama continues to slide in the polls. What the primary race against Hillary taught us is that we must never EVER admit loss. We successfully revived all the Rovian talking points of the 90's, calling her "Billary", and even a "dyke", and a "bitch." We used similar attacks to paint Bill Clinton as a warmongering racist and hypocrite. He now has a much degraded standing in the African-American community.
We took a chance, and we won. If by some bizarre scenario, we lose to McCain and his bitch Palin, we must never EVER admit failure. The meme is already in place to blame it on Hillary. If Obama does not receive his rightful place in the oval office, then the Democratic Party deserves to be dismantled. We need to continue to destroy the legacy of the Clintons and basically start a whole new political movement should anyone have to audacity to question Obama's ascension. Hillary must be portrayed as a female devil and a white witch.
WARNING. PURE SPECULATION AHEAD:
While I agree that Biden was a great choice, and Palin would not have been McCain's choice if Obama had chosen Hillary (so who knows what would have happened), there's no doubt the narrative has changed in the past week. And there's no doubt that switching to Clinton at this point it would shift the narrative again in a way I doubt McCain could recover from. Of course I realized immediately that it would be really hard for Obama to do that in a way that didn't look like he was selling Biden out or flip-flopping. Even if Biden is the one who makes the announcement that, "I've been thinking about this and I think it's best for the party," nobody will really buy it (nobody ever does).
The way I see it, there's only one way they could do that and make it sound reasonable. That's if Biden starts dropping hints in different places that he's not sure it was the best choice, or starts praising Hillary even higher than normal. I honestly wouldn't have expected it to really happen (regardless of whether or not it's the "right" choice to begin with), but this offhand remark certainly sounds EXACTLY the way I would have handled the first step.
Ok, how crazy am I? ;)
You must have landed in a DLC nest. That or you are simply taking a position. Don't know which, don't care, but you could not possibly be more wrong.
Take a step back and remember the kind of campaign Hillary and Mark Penn ran - the Rove gutter politics; the character assassination; the racist appeals to hate and fear; the lying; the screeching; the vote-for-me-because-you-feel-sorry-for-me, or-for-yourself card; the spectacular failure of planning and execution; the disastrous financial management.
What makes you think Hillary would not have galvanized the Rush Limbaugh base not unlike, um, Sarah Palin?
What makes you think Obama could run, or govern, with the Clintons, who had just tried to run him off the road, not once, but for months after anyone with dignity and integrity would have stood down?
What makes you think that Bill's corrupt connections wouldn't be a lightning rod for Republican attack ads?
I'm sorry you saw fit to post this. It doesn't help. Even if you talked to a dozen or so Hillary supporters at the convention, the primary is over, Obama won, and he chose his V.P. He had a right to choose someone who was not Hillary Clinton and I think he had a long list of very damn good reasons to do so.
Do us all a favor and shut the hell up about it.
Thoughts... @ 72:
How do you know he would have picked her? It's his show and his ego is too big to let her be on the ticket with him. Remember Biden made this remark because of people like you who just won't let it go. Hillary did this blah blah blah blah.
Jimmy Carter said quite early that he thought Hillary as a VP would be a bad choice - that it'd lead to the worst of both worlds rather than the best.
I tend to agree.
Orangutan. @ 60:
http://www.barackobama.com/tv/mostrecent.php
I'm not posting anything else on this thread. It is a distraction for the campaign as much as Sarah Palin is. I understand what Biden meant. It was a gaffe; it was a dignified response, honoring his friend, pointing out that one SHOULD be qualified to be VP, that Hillary is qualified, that he is qualified and that Obama made a "country first" decision, instead of pandering, knee-jerk, panic-ridden and soley political and selfish decision as McCain did.
Bullshit. The only thing that would have solidified the repug base more than Mrs. Palin would be running against a clinton. Thanks, but no fuckin thanks.
Let Biden Be Biden. Biden Unplugged. What a refreshing blast of cool Delaware air he is, a man so secure in his persona as to actually elevate party unity in a non-hubris manner. Obama and Biden hands down win the candidate who-I'd-most-like-to-have-a-beer-with survey.
I disagree. A black man on the top of the ticket is a lot to swallow for America as it is, and Hillary had even less real experience than Obama. Biden shows that Obama is serious about foreign politics, about governing and about getting his change-agenda through Congress. Biden is not going to spend energy positioning himself to be president after Obama as Hillary surely would have done. This is a much better pick than Kerry made and an enormously better pick than Gore made. That is my opinion anyway.
Vince @ 111:
It's just more politics as usual--there's very little difference between McCain and Clinton and their approach to politics, which is the exact reason I would never vote for an Obama/Clinton ticket. Clinton did more damage to Obama's campaign than McCain/Palin have (so far, anyhow), and yet Obama and Biden are going to pretend it never happened, just as the Bush campaign's sinking of McCain's run in 2000 (back when McCain was almost worth voting for) has been completely put aside in an effort to pretend to show party unity. I can't stand American politics, it's embarrassing. I really wish there was a viable 3rd option with the same political views as myself, instead of this two-headed monster we're stuck with.
I think it's time for John Amato to get over his disappointment about Hillary, and start making noise about our ticket. This constant whine is getting very tiresome, and speaking only for myself, if the tenor of his comments continues down this road, I'm outa' here, despite this being one of my favorite sites.
Check out this comment in today's NY Times, and chill.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/11/opinion/11collins.html?th&emc=th
P.D. @ 77:
'in the darkness binds them'
Ok so if we do lose this thing could somebody guide me in how to address uh..belch...puke. ...President McCain without looking unpatriotic by losing my cookies at the same time?
Tim in Japan @ 117:
Obama is black and his middle name is Hussein, that's how. As has been pointed out by McCain's campaign manager, this election has nothing to do with actual issues.
Yellow Elephant Safari @ 14:
Honestly, as much as I would like to have seen Senator Clinton as our VP nominee, I think the deal was made that should Senator Obama become president, Senator Clinton would be named to the first open Supreme Court seat. Even you "Hillary Haters" and "Hate Everything Clinton" people would have a tough time arguing against such a choice.
Senator Biden more or less diffused an issue and showed what a statesman he truly is.
Hillary would have caused immediate problems and headaches for the Obama campaign, not to mention instant attacks from the right-wing, who spent an entire decade going after the Clintons. It would serve as a distraction. You can't have two huge personalities on the same ticket.
More importantly, Hillary proved in the primaries she didn't need Bill, and that she's her own woman - she doesn't play second fiddle to anyone. If she'd won the nomination, picking Joe Biden or Wes Clark would have been smarter than picking Obama. The whole unifying the party through a unity ticket bullshit would have been cynical if either of them did it.
This is useless to discuss, what's done is done. Sure, it seems like he should have chosen her now that McCain chose Palin, but it's likely McCain wouldn't have chosen Palin if Obama chose Hillary. He would have chosen a more Biden-like figure, and possibly won on that. Obama would have been chastised for cheap political pandering to woman voters.
I think Biden was an excellent choice from a political viewpoint, but from a *human* standpoint, it should have been Obama/Nader '08!!!
Don't expect too much from Bill 'n Hil. They have no desire to wait another 8 years for another shot. Defeat The One and take a shot in 4 years. I wonder what dirt they found during the campaign that they couldn't use because their own party would hammer them on the charge of racism?
Can anyone say "October surprise"?
Surging Blue Lensman @ 119:
AMEN!!!!!
We have all the issues--- the economy is tanking---- the propaganda surge is working but the real one isn't. And what are we doing---- talking about Hillary. It boggles the mind.
Hillary's actions against Obama in the primaries disqualified her from being on a progressive ticket as prez or VP. If we want the country run by lobbies we always have McSame/Palin..aw now I have wash out my mouth after saying McLame/Palying..speeeeew!
CMINCA @ 125:
Exactly!!
This land is your land...this land is my land...from California to the New York Island.....sadly nothing in between )-:
I completely disagree with the assertion that Clinton would have been a better pick than Biden (sorry Joe). In terms of experience, maybe this might be the case, but on the level of PR, I don't think it would have worked for several reasons.
First, Obama and Clinton had a rough primary season. Obama picking Clinton would have been analogous to McCain picking Romney: it would have looked disingenuous, and I imagine that it would have felt awkward for the person on the top of the ticket. After all, the VP choice should be made not just on the basis of qualifications, but it should also be about rapport between the running mates. Biden is an excellent pick because he seems to work well with Obama--there's a mutual respect that I'm not sure would come through if Clinton had been the VP selection.
Secondly, you have to consider the Obamacans--swing voters who are attracted to Obama but hold conservative values. My own parents qualify: I grew up in a household where Bill Clinton was (pretty much) the devil. This distaste for Democrats carried over into the Bush presidency, and both of my parents (to my knowledge) voted Republican in 2000 and 2004. In about 2006, they switched over, and now they are completely enamored with Obama. To them, he represents everything the Clinton's weren't: integrity. For these voters (and I believe there are a good chunk of them) picking Clinton would have been a betrayal.
I have more reasons, but these are the two most compelling in my mind.
So... walk with me for a minute.
Scooby Doo was a good kids show. Many successful seasons. Lots of good gags and adventures for old Scoob and the gang.
But at some point, Scooby Doo's plotlines got tired out. The show became repetetive and dull.
Then the writers got an idea: Scrappy Doo!
We'll introduce this young, feisty little dog, and give him some snappy lines. All the kids will be running around yelling, "Puppy Power!" And feeling invincible, as the punch their parents and each other for no reason. Ol' Scoob will be saved by the introduction of new blood into the series.
Now, as a fan of Scooby Doo, even as a kid, I quickly recognized that Scooby Doo had jumped the shark with the arrival of Scrappy. I didn't know the phrase, "jumped the shark," but I knew that Scrappy was an annoying caricature of what I was supposed to like as a little kid.
-----
Fastforward to 2008. Here you have the Republican Party, which was fun and exciting in its heyday. But, after years of the same old formulas and mistakes, the programming is tired. In step the strategists, with, you guessed it: A scrappy little, tough-talkin' wisecrackin' whippersnapper who loves to pick fights... She's supposed to be all of us. But she's annoying and she can't back up her own talk. She's just a desperate ploy to revive a tired old show.
So next time someone asks you what you think of Sarah Palin, you can respond with a silly little joke: What's the difference between Sarah Palin and Scrappy Doo? Lipstick. And then tell them their show is being cancelled.
JGR @ 46:
Would McCain have picked Palin if Hillary had been on Obama's ticket? Don't forget the Repubs were desperate to run against Clinton. Why?
the polls are closing and we have less than 60days to go till THE DAY and someone wants to have a debate on whether Hillary would have been better than Joe? Do you want to take back this country or what? We are at war against the party does not give a s**t about us and this election will be actually do some good for us but you're not sure about Obama's decision? 18 months back and forth all the discussions and arguments plus all the things we know about Clintons if you still not sure about the whole thing I'm not sure what to tell you.
That's not to say I'm not worried about woman voters. They're now the swing vote in this election. They need to examine McCain/Palin policies and determine if they truely want to throw away decades of hard work and progress.
If nothing else, women should be voting on whether they want Scalia, Thomas and Alito dictating their re-productive rights.
Under the current circumstances, if Democrats need Hillary Clinton on the ticket in order to "unite" behind Obama, they need to take a look in the mirror.
If that is really the sentiment among the "rank and file" I think the mystery behind the quadrennial Republican Beat-Down has been exposed.
I, and many like me, predicted that Obama will have a rough time getting Biden to "bite his lip".
Well ... that did not take long.
Jusker @ 145:
I'm sorry Obama/Clinton was the dream ticket back then and now. For God's sake she had half the fricken vote! Look at us now! Scraping the bottom of the barrel in the Appalachians for white female democratic inbreds! Sheeeesh!
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