Latin American Tensions, Ambassadors Expelled
By Steve Hynd Sunday Sep 14, 2008 7:00pm
What with Iraq's "success" so fragile that it might shatter, Afghanistan becoming even more deadly than Iraq ever was, Pakistan threatening retaliation for cross-border raids, Russia baring its teeth over the Caucusus conflict started by John McCain's pal - with all those, you know the last thing America wants is a disturbance down South America way.
Unfortunately, that's what's happening. Bolivia is swiftly slipping into violent chaos and the Bolivian leader, Evo Morales, has blamed it all in American provocateurs. He has expelled the US ambassador to Bolivia and, in solidarity, Venezuela's Hugo Chavez has sent the ambassador to his country packing too. Washington has responded by throwing out envoys from Bolivia and Venezuela and freezing the assets of three aides to Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez.
In Washington, US State Department spokesman Sean McCormack said the US regretted the actions of Venezuela and Bolivia.
"This reflects the weakness and desperation of these leaders as they face internal challenges, and an inability to communicate effectively internationally in order to build international support," he said.
Bolivian and Venezuelan allegations - including that the US supports continuing anti-government protests in Bolivia - were false "and the leaders of those countries know it", Mr McCormack added.
Meanwhile, Honduras has refused the credentials of a new US ambassador, postponing his appointment.
...Freezing the assets of the three Venezuelan aides, the US Treasury accused them of "materially assisting the narcotics trafficking" of rebels in Colombia.
Analysts say the trio - Hugo Armando Carvajal Barrios, Henry de Jesus Rangel Silva and Ramon Rodriguez Chacin - are members of Mr Chavez's inner circle.
Nicaragua's President Daniel Ortega may yet tell the US ambassador there to take a hike too - he's saying he backs he Bolivian leader.
Perhaps Ortega is remembering when the current US Director of national Intelligence, John Negroponte, was working in Honduras on CIA covert operations in support of the contras. Those covert operations involved several other figures who are part of, or close to, the Bush administration. It's OK to be paranoid when you have evidence they really are out to get you.
Now, just to make matters worse, the feud with Russia is getting all tangled up with the diplomatic feud in Latin America, as Russian forces get ready for joint military exercises with Venezuela. If there ever was or could have been a unipolar world, neoconservative foreign policy has ensured that it isn't to be. With much of America's military tied down in protracted occupations, fought to exhaustion by ragtag militias, other nations aren't as cowed as the used to be.
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Aw fuck...
here we go again. Dictators want a way out of the problem, they point at us (probable interference in Bolivian affairs is no shock, every US president has done that since Grant in the 1870s)....
and the leaders of South America never give a damn about their peasantry.
Wonderful.
Incidentally, Belize should not be included on that map, that's an Anglo country.
And the right wingnuts used to like to say that President Clinton "gutted" our military. The neocons are determined to destroy it. How many more unnecessary conflicts can they bully our way into?
i wonder if sean hannity will ask palin to give an exegesis of the situation in latin america.
The U.S. foreign policy establishment is playing around with fire here.
They've been flirting around with separatist, secessionist rich provinces of Bolivia whose leadership are very, very hostile to the national government, President Evo Morales, and to the indigenous majority in general.
Now violence has erupted which has seen squads from the ostensible breakaways not just harassing, not just beating up, but slaughtering peasants supporting the national MAS government.
This is stupid. This is big time stupid, stupid on a scale I thought even George W. Bush Jr. had gotten past.
No one, but no one in Latin America (outside these crazy provinces) wants Bolivia to explode apart. None of their neighbors. Not just the Hugo-Chavez-allied more leftist ones, not the more conservative ones.
It could very lead to a South American situation of violence no one had been anticipating. There are rebellious and breakaway tendencies in states throughout the region.
This is a very, very, very arrogant, dangerous, and stupid game that the U.S. right wing has been playing with these wealthy, mineral-rich regions of Bolivia who want autonomy.
They need to stop this now.
Jesus, if mc wins he is going to have one hell of a job fucking up as badly as Bush. Unfortunately, I think he is up to it.
I don't know...
the guy's evidently been involved in terrorism in a neighboring country. He's no angel.
El Cid @ 5:
Should have thought of this before recognizing Kosovo.
Vladimir Putin's having a fit of laughter as we speak.
Who gives a crap about Bolivia? Seriously. Why should I care?
Over the weeks ahead, as carnage in the economy and the financial markets ramps up, it will become increasingly clear.
Everything is for sale and nobody has any money. This was essentially the state of things in the Great Depression of the 1930s, and the only escape from that turned out to be the mobilization for war.
Adopt and spread the idea that the Republicans are “the party that wrecked America.” It will work because it is the truth.
Red Headed StepChild @ 9:
Because these SOBs are relatively closer than Iraq.
Seriously, a major war south of the border is bad.
So to recap:
The CIA is looking to overthrow the democratically elected government of Bolivia and install a right wing puppet. That will insure a U.S. sympathetic regime, and a weaker South American alliance among the nations. Divide and conquer.
The U.S. government, the Pentagon, the current administration are all desperate. The economy is in tatters and they're looking to grab as many resources (oil) and land as possible.
America is in its last throws, folks. These are signs of the fall of an empire.
When will Chile, Ecuador and Argentina join them?
We never learn. Cuba could have been our trading partner in 1960, but we shunned them because of ideology. So we got the missle crisis. Chavez would be happy to work with us if we would just leave him alone to rebuild his country. But we choose ideology, profits and imperialism. Our populace is so brainwashed into believing that these people acually mean us harm that it will enable the war profiteers to expend some more of their wares soon. WE are the provocateurs. Phil Agee documented the CIA's methods in "Inside the Company", John Perkins the corporate imperialists in "Confessions of An Economic Hitman, and Chalmers Johnson the political hegemonists in his trilogy. These people were INSIDE the apparatus. But the sheeple believe the most vile propagandist lies on the face of the planet. It's mass insanity. These people mean us no harm.
Red Headed StepChild @ 9:
Besides general decency, because its instability could affect its neighbors, thus the entire Southern Cone, and thus the U.S. economy, which has a lot of investments in the region.
Also, there's parallel investment throughout the region, so if one region experiences chaos and another reason loses business, life gets tougher in faraway places, even Mexico, such that all of a sudden economic chaos thousands of miles away might increase pressures for people to try to leave Mexico seeking jobs in the U.S.
This stuff is usually connected.
Bundle of Joy @ 12:
So the barbarians have sacked San Antonio and San Diego then? Our mainland is in danger? Until the US is limited to the 13 colonies on the Atlantic Coast again, the empire's still here.
In a recent recall referendum, Morales received close to 70% of the vote. Therefore, he has to go. This is in keeping with our philosophy that any leader who stands up for his own people is a "dictator". You won't hear any talk of "territorial integrity" when it comes to Bolivia.
Hopefully Venezeula can win European and Asian oil contracts quickly enough to allow them to cut off sales to the USA and have a viable oil weapon against the Evil Empire.
Venezeula, Bolivia, Cuba, Nicaragua and other Latin American nations have felt the treachery of the CIA. They deserve to have the chance to defend themselves with a shield of Russian nuclear missiles pointed at the redneck cities of the old Confederacy.
Drill baby drill -- start drilling holes for bomb shelters.
Che's Lounge @ 13:
We had an unofficial empire in Latin America long before the 60s, bub.
Ever hear of the "Banana Wars?"
Red Headed StepChild @ 9:
GuyCybershy @ 16:
Yeah, because encouraging terrorism in a neighboring country is standing up for your country. Because stomping down on miners wanting better wages is standing up for your country.
Morales is a thug. He actually uses his powers of thuggery, whereas in Bush-America, you and I can rest assured that our sleep as yet shall not have a knock at midnight followed by never seeing our family again.
General Pavel Rennenkampf Xocoyoztin @ 7:
The U.S has been involved in "terrorism" in virtually every country in latin America at one time or other, generally as the instigator.
Red Headed StepChild @ 9:
The issue at hand here is U.S. involvement in destabilizing the region.
Morales of Bolivia, visited Iran a few weeks ago to encourage economic cooperation between the two nations. Venezuela has enormous reservoirs of oil. Bolivia and Venezuela are close friends and allies. The U.S. is desperately trying to break the South American, Russian and Iranian alliance. Such an alliance is bad for business, especially, for Cheney's no bid contracts and Bush's oil revenue, not to mention the Neo-Con doctrine of imperialism.
Bundle of Joy @ 12:
Actually, I think the U.S. has been playing at something more dangerous than throwing out an elected government of a nation and replacing it with allied stooges.
It has been playing at actually breaking the nations apart by supporting right-wing breakaway Republics, since the U.S. foreign policy establishment thinks it can play that game after Yugoslavia.
The greatest temptation is the oil-rich state of Zulia, in Venezuela. But it's turned out to be Bolivia where local state governments offer the best opportunity to experiment.
I'm not some abstract fan of the nation state, but you really, really, really don't want South American nations to begin disintegrating into warlord chaos.
Don't forget, of course, that real terrorist groups need large, government-free zones of chaos to really operate. That's why Afghanistan and Southern Lebanon have proven so fruitful for successful terrorist group organizing.
So, yeah, what could possibly be the harm of ripping currently stable South American nations apart into warlord-dominated, Central Africa style civil war chaos? How about the easiest way to establish large-scale terrorist operations in the Western Hemisphere? How about narco-traffickers like the Colombian-military-allied death squad paramilitaries send out franchise divisions and ramp up drug production and exports by massive factor increases instead of small percentage growths?
Richard Wright of Pink Floyd died Monday, Sept. 15, 2008. He was 65.
General Pavel Rennenkampf Xocoyoztin @ 20:
Tell that to the muslim US citizens in Guantanamo
* spell-check *
republicans are A$$*&#*@
vrunner @ 25:
Good answer...but John Walker Lindh was fighting for the Taliban. Armed treason.
GuyCybershy @ 21:
The Peruvians are no fan of the US government. They never spoke up on US involvement. It was only Morales blamed for it.
General Pavel Rennenkampf Xocoyoztin @ 15:
You misunderstood my post. Anyway, my point is that with the military overstretched, the economy in the toilet and the global political atmosphere being as it is, the last thing any superpower needs is yet another involvement (besides Georgia, Iraq, Afghanistan and perhaps Iran soon) in yet another region of the world.
I'm talking about the Roman empire and its subsequent collapse. Surely, you know what I'm talking about. My post wasn't meant to be a fear mongering one, but a realistic evaluation of the current state of affairs, especially in light of the upcoming U.S. elections.
I wonder what this would mean for Citgo (wholly owned and run by the Venezuelan govt.) in the US.
Kinda scary huh. Deja Vu hype from previous elections huh. FEAR, FEAR!!! Just before Halloween too. How dastardly.
Listen it's serious, not only in Latin America, but; in Georgia and Pakistan, he's age, her __ (too many to list).
Be strong, stay focused. CHANGE.
One Beat Away by Anthony Look
Tinder box with tender heart,
decorated and clean.
Nightmare dream falls apart,
heart's rhythm is seen.
Bundle of Joy @ 29:
It's fearmongering regardless of what you call it. The American empire is in no danger. Unless you sincerely think we're about to break up into 50 independent countries...
Not all news concerning Venezuela is bad. For instance, last night Venezuelan pitcher Carlos Zambrano of the Cubs pitched a no-hitter. So... there's that.
US Foreign Policy does make for some unusual bedfellows!
I'm pretty into the whole international affairs scene, but I'd never anticipated Putin would get into bed with Chavez like that. Just goes to show what a pragmatist Putin is.
I mean, politically they're pretty much mirror images. Both are authoritarian assholes who've weakened democracy and free press in their countries. Both still retain large popular support. But apart from that.. Putin's a right-wing asshole (which is why he was A-OK up until this Georgia fiasco) and Chavez is a left-wing asshole (which is why he's the devil incarnate). Sure, Russia was selling weapons to Venezuela (who else? besides, Russian arms are cheaper), but still.
Well.. let's look at it from the positive side.. maybe, just maybe this will finally spell the end of the Monroe doctrine and US meddling in South America.
(I mean, hey - if we're so convinced Chavez's policies are doomed to fail, why worry about him?)
General Pavel Rennenkampf Xocoyoztin @ 20:
LOL, Evo Morales a thug...
Che's Lounge @ 13:
I will second that. I lived in Chile in 1971. Allende gave long speeches but it was very peaceful. It was widely known that the CIA was paying people in the army to attempt to destabilize the his administration. A democratically elected President of a sovereign nation. It was also known that they were taking the money and not doing anything.
Until they found Pinochet who decided that he wanted to be a dictator.
We should mind our own business, which should NOT include interfering with their internal situations.
We have a long tragic and dark history in our relations with Latin America.
Guatemala in the 1954 CIA sponsored coup d'etat of a democratically elected government.
Cuba. Colombia. Chile in early '70s. Nicaragua and El Salvador in the late '70s through the '80s into the '90s.
On and on. They have a lot to despise us for. Things done in our name.
Hot Spots Galore
Tyler Durden @ 35:
Well? What do you call beating down workers that actually dare to speak up for fair pay or sponsoring terror with a guy named (of all things, Chavez) stirring shit up in Peru? Loving your neighbor?
Alexdem @ 34:
Putin's just tickled that we're afraid of secession breaking out like smallpox all over Latin America...
after we recognized Kosovo and set a clear and present precendent for it. Should have thought what your adventure would lead to, Hmmm President Clinton?
not to worry. the boosh crime family is profitting.
I'm petty amazed that in a supposedly left-leaning blog, most of the comments here, not to mention the original post, echo right wing nuttery. Morales just won over 67% in a recall vote, up from around 50% in the general. Up even in the eastern provinces whose "leaders" want to break away. Fact is, months ago, the US ambassador was encouraging Peace Corps volunteers to spy for the US, something that should have gotten him kicked out then. USAID is funding projects in Bolivia, but with no transparency about what they are--more than likely anti-government. This is a case of the US stirring the pot and counting on the fact that Americans are more ignorant of Latin American politics than mid-East politics. Don't blame Morales, much less call him a "thug", he's got WAY more support in his country than Bush has in this one.
kcw @ 41:
Mazel Tov.
The only world supporter with less support than Dubya is Mahmoud Ahmadinejad.
Not exactly a challenge, then, is it?
El Cid @ 23:
Which southern Lebanese "terrorist" group are you referring to? Hizbullah has become a viable participant in Lebanon's political arena (the Legislature) and provides social and health care facilities for its constituents.
You may have a valid point regarding Afghanistan, but I disagree with you on southern Lebanon.
Back in the 70s and 80s, after Israel deported and expelled thousands of Palestinians to Lebanon, Southern Lebanon became a refuge for people with quite a lot of discontent for a state that has deprived them of their homeland. If that constitutes "terrorists"...........
Was Brazil's MR8 a terrorist group too? I guess it depends on one's moral compass.
*leader, not supporter.
Yes, democracies aren't democracies unless WE say they are democracy so elected heads of state can be called "thugs" & when the question of term limits comes to a referendum we can call it an attempt to install one's self as "dictator for life".
The South is uniting, the Bolivarian Revolution continues....
Alice X - (Chomsky Nader) - status quObama - change you can pretend in - @ 36:
Here on the Guatemala Coup D'Etat, sponsored by our CIA at the request of the United Fruit Company.
I don't know to what you're referring.
"We" as in "our government" is not afraid of secession "breaking out like smallpox all over Latin America."
"We" as in "our government" has been covertly and slyly encouraging it.
"We" as in "some of us ordinary citizens who have brains"? Okay, that part of "us" are nervous about secessionist prospects.
Why would Putin take glee in something the U.S. is pushing? What?
Chuckling Canuck @ 17:
Patria Libre, Baby! The Hell we have wrought on the history of Guatemala alone makes the US deserving. Karma is a bitch!
kcw @ 41:
You nailed it!
too many still subscribe to the meme from the same sources. If they can't be trusted, they can't be trusted and the So-Called Liberal Media and half of the pretending 'progressives' simply cannot be trusted.
I guess the chickens are starting to come home to roost.
Bundle of Joy @ 43:
Whatever your view of Hizbullah, it is true that (a) they weren't the only non-state forces able to wield violence throughout Southern Lebanon, particularly early after the 1978 and 1982 invasions by Israel; and (b) if you think 'terrorist' is a bad word for Hizbullah, okay, but still, without having a large, ungovernable zone in Southern Lebanon, they don't get to organize and operate.
If you prefer to use terms such as 'non-state actors capable of large-scale sub-military violence', then fine. The point is that such groups require areas in which there is enough chaos and disorder that no central government can enforce enough order to stop their activities.
El Cid @ 47:
We recognized a secessionist state in a volatile region. The precendent has been set.
Thanks to Clinton making this bed, we have to lie in it. Bush just took embers and poured gasoline mixed with gunpowder on them.
You forget the 90s in Yugoslavia, amigo?
General Pavel Rennenkampf Xocoyoztin @ 38:
Gen PVL: cite your sources, 'cause you are full of it.
elvisgoat @ 48:
Then Russia deserves what it got for its actions in the Baltic states and to Chechens, Kalmyks, Tartars, Ukrainians, and Poles.
Karma hits both.
General Pavel Rennenkampf Xocoyoztin @ 42:
Domestically or internationally? Didn't know they had any poll data for Iran domestically? :)
But with their economy doing pretty bad too, chances are he'll be voted out in the elections next June.
Wait.. whut? Elections? Economy? Iran??! Am I saying Iran is more democratic than our close allies in Saudi Arabia, Jordan and Kuwait?!
Ah... if only Americans knew..
El Cid @ 5:
No offence, American involvement in South America has largely been a by-partisan affair. The Republican prefer to use a hammer (Coups, funding 'Democracy Groups', etc.) and the Democrats prefer the garrote (IMF, World Bank, Aid with strings, etc.). But both will use either methodology as the chance allows.
And yes, this is a dangerous and reprehensible game...
Albeit, it is a measure of how far American power has slipped. It's important to not that even the 'conservative' governments of Latin America at this point are from Social Democratic parties, and while these 'conservative' / 'good' (I use that with scorn) behave like liberals / centrists for the most part, historically they would have suffered a coup or an accident.
The fact that the 'bad' / 'dictators that were elected with better credibility than Bush' are still in power is an even bigger indicator of America's slide.
FWIW, the reason why 'the Ebil Commie Dictator' (he's none of those things, but that has seldom mattered to the American media, or the average American) Morales hasn't cracked down is that he doesn't fully trust his Army and Police because he rightly suspects that a fair number of them may be on the US payroll.
kcw @ 53:
The Beeb. Go ahead, blame the Beeb on the Bush family. Let's see you pin that on them.
Ask and ye shall receive.
General Pavel Rennenkampf Xocoyoztin @ 52:
Can you not read the words I have written? Are you unable to understand something?
Did I not start off by mentioning the idiotic U.S. foreign policy establishment's conclusions from their adventures in Kosovo that meddling in separatist movements would be an option in Latin America?
Who do you think you're snotting off to? Do you have any evidence I supported U.S. meddling in separatist movements in the Balkans? No? Do you think I have the magical ability to make the U.S. foreign policy establishment do what I want? No? Do you think that by mentioning Clinton that suddenly my clear and principled statements are made all haywire or something? What?
I'm rooting for Hugo Chávez, just because he was overthrown in a US backed coup, was being dragged off into the jungle for a quite execution. THEN the citizens rose up and revolted against the coup and so many were taking part in wanting Chávez back, that the grunts in the military mutinied against their commanding officers and joined the citizens over the coup and Chávez was brought back via helicopter to hundreds of thousands cheering people.
If that doesn't say you're a bad ass mother fucker, you tell me what it take
South American presidents meet to discuss Bolivia
BBC: Leaders debate Bolivia turmoil
Bachelet and her mother were tortured by Pinochet, who took power Sept 11 1973, in a coup that was at least strongly encouraged if not covertly supported by Nixon and Kissinger.
"Why should we in the US care?" asked someone .. if not because of common decency (as someone already pointed out) then consider that Venezuela supplies the US with 1.5 million barrels of crude oil a day.
It's way past time for this "Christian Nation" we ostensibly live in to begin to apply the "Golden Rule" in an international context.
Alexdem @ 55:
Yes, Iran is the most democratic Muslim state.
I knew that a long time ago.
Ayatollah Khameini, the first banana dislikes the guy, too. Surprised Armored Dinner Jacket hasn't suffered a convenient accident courtesy of his boss.
El Cid @ 58:
No, but a lot of people here don't realize that once we set the precendent, any damn fool can declare himself a state leader and get recognized now. Pandora's Box has been opened. Enjoy catching all the monsters that run out.
El Cid @ 51:
It's not a matter of preference. I'm talking from a purely academic empirical perspective. Once you label someone or something a terrorist, then everything regarding that person or entity becomes blurry, irrelevant, murky.
It's akin to labeling someone a wacko and dismissing him or her as mentally disturbed. Once that stigma is acquired everything else is dismissed; there is no reason to further analyze or attempt to understand the historical background of the situation.
Again, it's a label that helps win votes and shore up political support, but it doesn't contribute to explaining anything. It's a subjective label and not an objective label.
I for one, welcome our South American liberators. Viva la!... um... psst... what can we 'viva'?
General, You have to google "The revolution will not be televised." Do not, I repeat, do not believe the propaganda you see in our media. It's mostly lies and the elected governments of South America are bringing true democracy to their citizens. Do not believe the propaganda.
El Cid @ 58:
The USA has meddled in Latin America any and every way it can, separatist or not, for a long time.
However, for all our history of meddling, the UÇK in Kosovo is not one of the groups the US supported. Not until they were at open war with the Serbian gov't. NATO ended it, but didn't start it. The Yugoslavs managed to rip their nation apart all by themselves. They really didn't need any enticing.
Ron @ 65:
Hmm...
I read the same shit in the Beeb. Wanna tell me US media controls the mother country's as well?
Alexdem @ 66:
Yeah, I guess the Cold War isn't enticement.
Sooooooooooo
What took you so long to report this story?
It's been on NovaM Radio for a WEEK.
General Pavel Rennenkampf Xocoyoztin @ 57:
Good God are you a laughable putz. The Chavez in the second article was granted asylum in Bolivia long before Morales came to power, so your charge that he's sponsoring terrorism in a neighbor is BS, pure and simple. Though, if you want to compare apples to apples, why not the case of Chavez, and $10,000 and Posada Carilles, who was given US asylum despite having an active hand in the ONLY case of State Sponsored Terrorism to take place on US soil.
As for the Beeb, analysts widely view that protest as orchestrated by the anti-government, US supported break-away provinces.
You're nuts.
General Pavel Rennenkampf Xocoyoztin @ 62:
much of this goes back as far as noxin, who had kissinger on the foreign policy agenda. kissinger and his eventual successor treated the southern hemisphere as a resource-rich territory uinfortunately populated with people. they even plotted how to use food as a weapon against poorer nations.
the tri-lateral commission as well as the commission on critical choices, were running this country and it's foreign policy under the guise of noxin, carter and raygun. their minions are still the advisors for mcC*nt and Obama.
so the roots are old and deep.
kissinger and brezinski envisioned and planned to seize the middle-east, lock up the oil and encircle russia with weapons.
russia is only returning the favor, along with all the others who once were so insignificant once upon a time.
General Pavel Rennenkampf Xocoyoztin @ 57:
Wow, for such a know-it-all you surely present the prototypical "American who does not know how to correctly parse a labor strike." LOL...
You realize that Morales did in fact comply with the requests of the miners who own the cooperatives, and the tax hike was only applied to the foreign own mines. Which is one of the reasons why the US of A threw a hissy fit, which went into over drive once Morales' government decided to nationalize the foreign-own mines?
What you claim can only be substantiated if you really stretch the information in the links you provided. That is quite a intellectually dishonest approach IMHO.
You are either expect some of us to not be informed, or to not be able to read. Both equally condescending...
How's that "with us or against us" thing working for ya GW?
Pakistani tribal chiefs threaten to join Taliban
Wow! Making friends everywhere !!!
L.A. Confidential @ 24:
Just great. More bad news.
General Pavel Rennenkampf Xocoyoztin @ 67:
Did the BBC mention how many South Ossetians died at the hands of the Georgian army? (The answer is one time during a late night report compared to the constant barrage of "The Russians destroyed this" and the "The Russians destroyed that" reports).
Of course the UK is controlled. It's an issue of alliance, convergence of interests. C'mon.
General Pavel Rennenkampf Xocoyoztin @ 67:
Watch the video if you really believe in what you say, then come back with an opinion.
It's hard to remember, but the reason that much of the Afghan population were willing to (glumly, horrified) support the Taliban assumption of power is that unified government under the Taliban was preferable to perpetual warlord violence among the U.S.' former allies in the anti-Soviet war.
Weirder things have happened, but if the Taliban takes over again from the same dynamics, it's kind of hard not to just leap straight into Aesop's fables or other pithy slogans.
kcw @ 70:
Gasp...
I've been found out!!!
To the kookmobile!!!!
J/K.
If Morales wanted to be nice he'd hand him over. Sheltering someone responsible for armed terror against another neighbor is a black mark against any world leader.
And worker's protests can never be organized against Latin American leaders because they're screwing the workers over. Only Anglos do that.
Bindle of Joy @ 75:
The Brits and Russkies are old enemies. If I wanted more unbiased reporting on Russia-Georgia, I read some faraway safe country's reporting like say, Al-Jazeera. Yes, kiddies, I read Al-Jazeera English for news. I would not trust old imperialist rivals on each other's behavior.
General Pavel Rennenkampf Xocoyoztin @ 68:
It had nothing to do with the Cold War. - Yugoslavia was non-aligned anyway. It had to do with Tito's legacy. The legacy of WWII. The legacy of Austro-Hungary. And the legacy of centuries of strife as a Military Frontier region.
Red Headed StepChild @ 9:
The Bolivian Government announced it would pursue formal relations with Iran and Libya in September 2007, with plans to cooperate in the petrochemical industry and increase Bolivian exports to both countries.
Libya has recently been removed from the U.S. State Dept.'s list of countries that sponsor terrorism, supposedly all to the credit of Rice's visit. Gadafy called her his "darling Black African woman." Maybe she actually does put out. I digress...
Iran. Well, see the triangle?
General Pavel Rennenkampf Xocoyoztin @ 78:
Yes, I know you are a Troll, but you are such a lame and incompetent troll. Why not just go back to the NRO?
Rick Street @ 4:
"That part of America that speaks Latin is the Catholic church, right Charlie?"
kcw @ 82:
I give up. Just because I dare to question Democracy really existing in our
empire,-I mean South America, because it would not be good for US business if it did, I'm automatically a troll.Democracies do not make good foundations for empires. South America's the US's bitch. What good would democracy bring us here?
Another low point in Colon Powells career. The fool on TV praising the coup over Chavez just as the coup was falling apart and a million people were surrounding the Presidential Palace . The Revolution Will NOT BE Televised is a great documentary dealing with said coup attempt. Chavez is just a bad guy because he wont bend over to US business.
Viva Chavez !!! You'd almost think the rest of the globe is getting tired of US arrogance and meddling in their affairs. The chickens are really coming home to roost for sure. Its obvious Bush and the NEO scum are deploying a scorched USA policy. Determined to screw things up so bad that no amount of sanity (Obama) can return USA to its former glory.
General Pavel Rennenkampf Xocoyoztin @ 1:
Evo Morales of Bolivia is not a US backed or US propped up or entralled w/US style politics. He is the first ever indigenous leader. And, of course we've been in Bolivia d*cking around with their gov't, that's why he's pointing the finger!!
kcw @ 41:
My thoughts exactly. I am speechless, almost. ; )
I forecast a resurgence in Tom Lehrer record sales.
Tom got the mood perfectly, for then and for today, circular almost groundhogish.
Tom Lehrer - So Long, Mom (A Song for World War III)
Tom Lehrer - We Will All Go Together When We Go
General Pavel Rennenkampf Xocoyoztin @ 78:
That was a pathetic attempt at a comeback.
Morales' cabinet did in fact met the requests of the labor protest: tax hikes were not applied to cooperative mines. So what is your point?
There are people in this forum who are as educated (or more so) than you and are quite knowledgeable when it comes to current and historical events. Please do not insult our intelligence.
Col Kilgore @ 85:
I love that documentary and even though I watched it more than once I still got goosebumps just watching of how the REAL people (the working people, the poor people, the people with a conscience, the brown & black people, the downtrodden & oppressed people) came out in support of Chavez! It was amazing!
I highly recommend people watch it on freedocumentaries.org.
kcw @ 82:
Aight now. I've read alot of the General's comments over several months of (mostly) learking here, and I'll tell ya, this is one of the only times I've ever thought he was misinformed. As to being a troll, you may be right, but you definately got the sides wrong...I'd not be surprised to find the General givin'em hell over at LGF.
And General, please watch "The Revolution Will Not Be Televised". It's available several places on the web for free viewing. I do think you got Chavez wrong.
Tyler Durden @ 89:
You and your tapeworm?
j/k.
They can be more informed than I am. If they're more arrogant than I am, then we've got issues.
Bitter Bud Hussein @ 64:
Viva la Revolution!
MountainMan23 @ 73:
Fact is, the US was faced down by the Pakistan Army today. seven US helicopters dropped soldiers in afghanistan at the border of pakistan and waiting for the americans at a checkpoint were Pakistan Army soldiers who fired into the air to convince the americans of their 'sincerity' Rachel maddow also reported it on her show today
General Pavel Rennenkampf Xocoyoztin @ 42:
I seriously doubt that, the Iranian form of gov has factions and opposition groups, if he was more unpopular than Chimpy he would have been sacked or worse years ago.
Only in America can somebody as crooked and evil as Chimpy stay in office with the tacit and subtle support of the opposition,
not to mention the yellow lackeys on his side.
anyone ever play the game of RISK?
Jimmi the Grey @ 91:
Sockpuppet
Gee, I wonder if Dubya is still considering retirement in Paraguay.
kcw @ 97:
Check the IP address. He's no sockpuppet.
It will be interesting to see if the two major candidates take the usual United States position that this country has the right to interfere in the affairs of other countries or whether Bolivia actually has the right of self-determination.
kcw @ 97:
Project much?
General Pavel Rennenkampf Xocoyoztin @ 99:
And just how would one go about doing that...inquiring minds and all that?
"Go to hell, shitty yankies!" Chavez is looking crazier every day. That's unfortunate. I was really hoping for some meaningful reform in Latin America.
Bundle of Joy @ 22:
Not to mention Bolivia has all that natural gas!! With our dependence on foreign oil we need a new country's resource to take! j/k... not really... kinda'... but...
Emma Hussein Goldman @ 103:
Chavez looks crazy? How so? What did he do?
General Pavel Rennenkampf Xocoyoztin @ 92:
I am giving you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you really are *that* ignorant about Bolivian politics, because the alternative would be that you are being willingly intellectually dishonest. Which would be disappointing.
Isome @ 104:
They also have a shitload of petroleum and mineral mines.
And of course: coca...
Latin America has far more natural resources than the US of A, a strong indigenous presidency who is willing to put the national interests of a latin American country over the interests of foreign corporations is a huge threat.
If anything I am surprised Morales hasn't been taken out already. American intel ops must be getting really sloppy... talent must have been drained with the continuous purges.
I've said for years (i'm only 21, but for as long as I can remember) that we should revert to a good neighbor policy with Latin and South America. We need to get things right here, before we go around the world trying to correct things. Imagine an entire hemisphere united in a cause. Imagine what we could do with that type of backing. Instead, we have sh*t all over the Latins and told them to wipe it off themselves. So what do they do in response? They are beginning to wipe the sh*t off and are looking to someone else to help them out. Russia and China will be having footholds in our back yard because we are screwing around in central Asia and the Middle East.
Consequently, neither politician running for Prez are willing to say anything about Latin America. We kind of just want to sweep it under the rug, but eventually dirt builds up and the rug can hide it anymore. We have got to pull out of the Eastern part of the world, and focus on building positive relationships here, and also Western Europe.
Isn't anyone gonna proofread this post? One or two misspellings is understandable, but the first few lines have so many mistakes they are barely comprehensible, and the misspellings throughout do nothing to lend credence to the content.
the gop is doing a good job of building a right wing police state here in the usa though.
General Pavel Rennenkampf Xocoyoztin @ 1:
Ummm... What seems to be missing in your response is that none of those South American leaders mentioned are dictators. All are democratically elected, and in elections whose integrity was more widely regarded than recent US elections.
As for South American leaders caring about "their peasantry", your knowledge is further demonstrated to be deficient, given both Morales and Chavez experience widespread support among their populations primarily because they are trying to address the needs of the poor.
kcw @ 41:
The right wing nuttery is mostly coming from the general. Imagine believing that Evo had workers beat down for asking for fair pay. It's too ridiculous for words.
US Plans To Sell Israel 1,000 Bunker-Busting Bombs
AP | September 15, 2008 06:35 PM
The U.S. plans to sell Israel 1,000 buster-bunker bombs which Israeli military experts said Monday could provide a powerful new weapon against underground arsenals in Lebanon or Gaza. (Why is IRAN not mentioned????)
The experts said they doubted, however, that the bombs could be used to deliver a crippling blow against Iran's nuclear program.
In announcing the proposed $77 million deal, which still needs Congressional approval, the U.S. Defense Department said the sale of the Boeing GBU-39 smart bombs would be consistent with the U.S. interest of assisting Israel "to develop and maintain a strong and ready self-defense capability." The Pentagon issued a release on the planned sale on Sept. 9.
tr @ 110:
CoIntelPro for Pronktastic Victory Over SCLM, DIEBOLD, ESS and SEQUOIA! @ 94:
(Guardian UK) War on terror: Pakistani troops fire on US helicopters trying to enter lawless tribal region
There are links to John McCain as well in this.
McCain is Chairman of IRI (International Republican Institute; http://www.iri.org/). IRI gets it's money from USAID and uses that to ‘promote democracy’ in countries with struggling or weak democratically elected governments. The Democrats have a similar organisation.
IRI however, has long been acused of not only promoting ‘democracy’. It is being accused of promoting and supporting conservative and sometimes even opprosive regimes or parties to protect US interests. The most clear examples are Haiti and Venezuela.
The stories about Haiti and the ousting of Aristide are confusing but what is clear that IRI aligned itself specifically with the opposition of Aristide and his party to create chaos and disrupt elections. Politics in Haiti is messy and chaotic and that has allowed IRI to portray Aristide as ineffectual and sometimes even as a dictator. But Aristide and his party have the wide support of the poor, while the (many) opposition groups have only the support from the rich and the upper middle class.
A good source for information about IRI and it's dealings in South America and the Caribean Islands can be found on Council on Hemispheric Affairs (COHA): http://www.coha.org/
Polderjongetje @ 116:
It is patently insane that the US government gives money to the two major political parties to meddle in the affairs of other nations.
Started during the Reagan administration.
MountainMan23 @ 117:
Why is it patently insane? Stir the pot, create controversy...? Why?
General Pavel Rennenkampf Xocoyoztin @ 1:
The only dictators in South America were duly planted by the American CIA.
Rape and pillage the Latin countries was the American, Friedman concept.
They have now taken their countries back, and their economies are growing while the US economy sinks into oblivion.
South America is poised to become an economic power-house and it just drives you Americans crazy.
My money's in Brazil...how are your investments doing?
Tyler Durden @ 107:
You know 'we're' working on it. When Evo announced his rejection of the IMF and any future FTA with the US in April of '06 and started the Bolivian Peoples Trade Agreement (an alternative to the neoliberal 'free trade' garbage) the US knew it had trouble on its hands.
Since PTA is for improving living conditions for the whole population, as opposed to just the rich, Spanish-descended elites, there is no way he'd 'beat down' workers asking for a living wage, and there's no way the US would allow this to go unchallenged. When you add to that the passage of a Hydrocarbons Law in 2005, that increased royalties foreign gas companies would have to pay to the government (which empowered them to pay off the IMF and build social programs to uplift all of Bolivia's people) it's a recipe for US intervention.
The multi-nationals cannot allow that to stand. They want their peasants to be ignorant, subservient and desperate. It is easier to create a class of gatekeepers (military men grateful for a paycheck) that way!
Get some background info first, before you comment.
Go to Dailykos: An answer to: “Guess who expelled the US ambassador...” by 8ackgr0und N015e (http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/9/15/103227/923/680/599360)
Read it and come back with comments.
Anton
CoIntelPro for Pronktastic Victory Over SCLM, DIEBOLD, ESS and SEQUOIA! @ 49:
general-pavlovs-dog and red-headed-stupid-child are hardly progressive or even pretending to be, they're just fricking trolls. don't feed them, let alone tar the rest of us with their ideas/attitudes, thank for very much...
Red Headed StepChild @ 9:
Ditto. Bolivia is a poor country!
Argentina is the richest place due to their oil. You have ex-nazi, Jews, SS Ukranians living side by side with a Jewish president.
Sadly the US can only growl as the people it used as 'meat' for several decades decide to tell them where to go. Congrats to South America! The new land of Freedom and Prosperity! Where one can go to find justice, equitability and NO TORTURE!
EZ @ 123:
Bolivians.
pissedcanuck @ 119:
I'm already planning on moving. I mean, why stay here with all the crazies who can't think rationally who can't turn off the TV and can't imagine a world where a Terrorist might jump out from behind a tree wearing a sheet.
OK. I love Chavez. I love Morales. I love (tho not quite so much) Castro. I love that they have the courage to stand up to the United States and say "no more of your tyranny". I wish them and their people well. And if the USA is about to undergo an economic collapse, then maybe it will no longer be able to exploit these countries as it has so many times in the past, and the collapse won't be a totally bad thing. My heart is always with the poor of the world over the greedy rich.
Forget about the latinos, we have our crooks here like Jim Rogers who took billions out of this country and moved to Singapore to eat their sh*t. Where is the patriotism to the American investors? Soros, Rogers, and the rest of their herd would like to see India, China the next super powers. The U.S. investors have screwed its citizens big time.
Check this link on Jim Rogers/Ben Barnanke/Soros and their future vision of the investor's funds.
http://money.cnn.com/2008/01/30/news/international/okeefe_rogers.fortune...
I shall not be surprised if Soros is funding the Chavez government against the U.S.
Let's see, who in the world today DOESN'T HATE US?
An old joke:
Q. Why doesn't the USA ever have a coup d'etat?
A. They haven't got a US embassy there.
Red Headed StepChild @ 9:
Maybe you don't care about other people cuz you is a red-headed stepchild, and didn't get any love? Just sayin'. That's the American attitude that has the world hating you; even your allies. I speak as one of them (an EX).
I's not even October and we're getting all sorts of "surprises".
I wonder if the PNAC likes this century, so far. It's going swimmingly, don't you think?
This is when Palin steps in because McCain is on life support after taking the Presidency and orders the military to dust off those nukes. " I will proceed with rapture, God Bless America. Now which way to the bunkers". Another mission accomplished and adios!
it's interesting how we have always used our power and our alliances to go after dictators who had run crazy with power in their own countries, using global cooperation to control a "bad actor".
Can you feel the love?
As a Brazilian, there was one good thing about the Bush regime: He has set us all free. And there is no turning back. This little attempted coup in Bolivia will result in nothing. It will only streengthen Morales and erode the little public opinion the oposition still carries.
That is precisely what it is - It's the end of the Unipolar world. (neoconservative's very own wet dream about Hegemony of USA - Oh how sweet it is? That it were the policies advocated and pursuited by neocons which made it possible for Multipolar world to emerge. (the exact opposit of what neocons wanted to achieve by thos policies).
And you my American friends dont despair - because this is no reson for you to be sad. Multipolar world is going to be much better for everybody - Not only for those countries on which Hawks in your govenment stared as on prey, but it's going to be better even for you.
This end of Uniporal world means that in future it will not be possible to repeat crimes such as Invasion of Iraq.
the neocon wet dream is a cold war without end. Managed conflict, for fun, profit and power. the whole crew needs to be dragged before the World Court.
GD Commie PINKOS! Who do they think they are in accussing the US of A of EVER supporting coup et tats? They don't have a leg to stand on...ok, other than in Vietnam, Cuba, Georgia but that's it....well ok, there's a couple more but Geezus, the world's a big place and there are so many countries left.....for others to share....but don't try and take control or we'll invade you in the best interests of NATO!
Screwed Up Or What?
Latin American Tensions, Ambassadors Expelled
Were they caught smoking in the boy's room?
The American government is supporting racists and fascists in Bolivia.
Abiding in Bolivia provides an extensive report as well as horrifying video and photos from Santa Cruz, the "autonomist" seeking region.
http://casa-del-duderino.blogspot.com/2008/09/santa-cruz-republica-de-mi...
In a country where the indigenous people are the majority, where for the first time they elect one of their own to government, who believes that the land and natural wealth of the country belongs to every citizen, not just the white and mestizos, and believes finally for the respect and dignity of Bolivia's indigenous peoples - all of a sudden there is an autonomist movement based on disgusting violence? It isn't all of a sudden, the leaders of these regions are wealthy, elite, racists who will use fascist means to accomplish their goal. How DARE a "brown skin" become president?
And the US happily supports these fascists because they cannot stand even the thought of independent direction forged Latin American leaders.
Well. at least it takes ones mind off of the failed policies in the Middle East and the slow crash of our economy for awhile. Hmmmm.
taochiapet @ 122:
Actually, I'm a liberal, voting for Obama, and post generally liberal responses here. Does that mean I have to toe some kind of line with respect to Bolivia? I agree that we shouldn't be so harsh, considering it's a democratically elected government and all. And if ya'll are gonna start calling for his overthrow, and start connecting dots to Libya, Iran, and Russia, YOU are the people taking the right-wing POV here.
I often wonder if these concern trolls (like General P.R.) are indeed paid pool-pissers sent by NRO or some other wingnut welfare outfit.
Seriously, now, could anyone else be so consistently obtuse?
It doesn't come to this overnight, comrade troll. Often the totalitarianism starts more gently, like the midnight knock leading to illegal arrests that only result in brief detention without charge. Like in St. Paul, MN, recently during the RNC convention. Or sometimes the illegal arrests and detentions happen in broad daylight, as in NYC in 2004.
How do these things deteriorate to full-on totalitarian nightmares? I imagine not least because of the sort of smug choads who would get off on flinging rhetorical poo at our empire's foreign policy victims while crowing about how things will never get that bad here.
Paul @ 140:
Hell yeah!
IndridCold @ 138:
I hope you're right.
Blue Buddha @ 30:
Well, for me it means that I will be seeking out Citgo stations to buy my gasoline.
I support President Chávez of Venezuela and President Morales of Bolivia. Neither of these men are "dictators"; both were democratically elected by the people of their respective countries. Chávez has withstood assassination attempts by US agents and internal enemies. Chávez respected the outcome of an election in which one of his big projects was rejected. Would a dictator - say, someone like Saddam Hussein (formerly a "friend" of the US when he was fighting against Iran) or Pinochet (who turned Chile into a prison camp) - respect the outcome of an election which didn't go their way?
Instead of antagonizing Venezuela and Bolivia, we should be working with them to improve the United States' access to their fuel resources. It is MUCH less expensive to ship oil across the Gulf of Mexico and Carribean than to bring it across the Atlantic or Pacific from Saudi Arabia. Venezuela shares many more of our values than do the Saudis. It seems very simple to me where we should be putting our diplomatic resources.
Why is Morales' claim of provocateurs being treated as speculation and unfounded?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/-/1/hi/world/americas/7244113.stm
http://www.democracynow.org/2008/2/11/us_embassy_in_bolivia_tells_fulbright
http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/Story?id=4290936&page=1
Anyone with a memory longer than five minutes knows this happened before, last winter, when Vincent Cooper was arrested and expelled for espionage.
It shouldn't surprise that the US is opposed to democracy in Bolivia given the US's long history of overthrowing such governments to install "our son of a bitch".
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