Guess Who Says They Won't Be Affected By Credit Crunch?
By Steve Hynd Sunday Sep 21, 2008 2:50pm
The CEO of FIAT says the financial crisis is already affecting industrial business. He told Reuters that it had already brought one part of his company's business - financing sales of farm and contsruction equipment - to "an absolute standstill." That's just one example of how this result of rich-to-richer greed will harm middle class and working class people. No new equipment means less work getting done, means less small business profits and less jobs.
But one massive industry sector says it will be unaffected by the credit crunch. Guess who?
"The defense industry is perhaps among the least impacted by the events of the last week," said Jon Kutler, founder and CEO of Admiralty Partners, a Los Angeles-based aerospace and defense investment firm. "Defense companies are frankly a tremendous safe haven during the disruptions."
... the robust cash flow of most defense companies means that even if one bank providing credit to defense companies disappears, others will be more than happy to step up.
"Most defense companies are flush with cash," Kutler said. "Right now, they're very healthy, so they don't need debt unless they're making an acquisition."
Moreover, "the borrowing base for defense contractors is substantially better than for their commercial counterparts," he said. "In today's marketplace, while banks are not lending, they are substantially more likely to lend to a defense contractor than they are to many commercial companies."
How about we tap them for a windfall tax to help pay for the bailout then? After all, they got this cash-rich from taxpayer's money. It would be patriotic to give some back in the country's hour of need.
After all, about the only way defense companies would be affected is if the US government, their biggest customer, went bust trying to fund a bailout that doesn't work. But noted economist and journalist Liam Halligan writes in the UK's Daily Telegraph Sunday that it could happen. The arms manufacturers could call it an investment in future business.
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Let's not forget the oil companies either. They've got a couple of extra bucks in their pockets at the moment, it'd be damn patriotic of them to kick in during this moment of national "crisis."
Defense industry folks are pretty much cash-on-delivery guys...
No credit...
Cuz once "they" got the guns, "they" can pretty easily refuse to pay...
Defense Industry's pretty much all "cash-on-delivery," cuz once "they" got the guns, how ya gonna make 'em pay?
I think it is immoral that they make profits at all.
I have a better idea. Declare peace and shut the mothers down.
Here, China is going to initiate our one world currency, since we have given China the leverage.
http://www.reuters.com/article/ousiv/idUSPEK4365020080917?sp=true
If you enjoy slaughtering human beings, there's always some willing to pay you good money to do it.
Kerry @ 3:
The industrial military complex is what the US was built on, it's no surprise.
Of course!
And of course, leave it Fauxnews and Cavuuuutttooo to blame "minorities and risky folks" for this crisis.
What a fucking pig.
A donation from Halliburton would probably right the boat again. Maybe Blackwater has a buck or two to chip in as well.
I was just thinking today, every day someone dies in this country just because they can't afford the health care they need. Where is the crisis call for that? People die in this country of hunger......shouldn't that be a crisis? The almighty dollar seems to be the only victim we ever notice.
Weaseldog @ 6:
Indeed, ask blackwater or anyone who stands in the way of the US + it's people & oil .......... then you'll see some real torture, rape and murder .......... unless your population happens to be watching american idol (or what ever is on at the moment).
Weaseldog @ 6:
What was it voltaire wrote: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities"
Keep in mind that a person's greediness is not necessarily proportional to their net material worth.
Jerry @ 7:
I believe that may be an exaggeration.
The country was built on slavery and genocide.
The military/industrial (now joined by the 'national security') complex is pretty much a johnnie-McC(umst)ain-lately. That probably dates from the Gilded Age, or thereabouts. The first Roosevelt's time...
All these guys are immoral. I find it hypocritical that Bush supporters claim they are Christians and Pro-life, yet support the Iraq war. Over 100,000 dead Iraqis. Women and children. How can you call yourselves Christians?
I just heard on tv that the administration is digging in their heals at the idea of no golden parachutes for executives. So the "solution" to this urgent crisis could be delayed if the ceo folks can't get golden parachutes. What does that say about the priorities of this administration right now?
P.D. @ 14:
It's well over a million dead Iraqis.
I don't why the reported number keeps shrinking. Do we forget so easily?
I see the word "greed" being thrown about during times such as these. This word seems to imply that it's an individual or a handful of individuals that cause the problem. Just a few "bad" apples. These men and women are not greedy. They are only practicing "business". This is the sort of stuff that gets praised in business schools. These are the same scoundrels that have been praised for the past 20-30 years. So let's stop calling them greedy and just say they've been practicing business in a capitalist country. As far as we know, what they've been doing is legal thanks to their business enablers in Congress and their MBA boy in the White House, and Clinton before him.
pissed off patricia @ 15:
That their priorities have never changed?
this link is broken:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/main.jhtml?xml=/money/2008/09/21/ccliam...
Yep, the military industrial complex needs to pony up. The war profiteers need to start shelling it out for the projected bazillions in national debt. Each of us should start getting checks in the mail from the Pentagon contractors since our taxes make their payday.
Maybe the pharmaceutical companies can start handing over some cash as well.
Speaking of which, WTF is up with the Lunesta ad on this site? Please take it off.
Income Redistribution in Disguise:
Escalating Military Spending
http://www.counterpunch.org/hossein04162007.html
Monday's decline marked the steepest one-day drop in the dollar against the euro since the euro-zone currency was formed in 1999.
If a currency reflects the rest of the worlds confidence in a country's financial well-being, well, things don't look good.
Weasledog@16, I haven't heard that number. This is so upsetting to me. WTF? I feel like Lady McBeth. "Out damn spot." I feel sick.
Weaseldog @ 18:
auf deutsch gesagt: GE-Farking-NAU!!!
The priority is now and always has been to dismantle any possibility that the People could resist their conquest by the Corporations.
They have succeeded fantastically...
JR @ 20:
What????Why, that could deprive OUR TROOPS of the equipment they need to fith for their lives?
WHY do you hate the troops?
P.D. @ 23:
In 2006 it was published in the Lancet, that the number was over 655,000 Iraqi dead. We've surged since then, among other things...
This developing economic crisis is so serious that people like Dennis, Johnny2Bad, Marge are silent. Trolls have to eat too, I guess.
I'm getting a bit ticked off every time I hear this bail out described as a 'socialist' act.
While it is true that nationalizing industries is a socialist trait- it is also true of fascist nations as well.
I think the latter description fits much more soundly.
Boeing Stock Prices:
Date Open High Low Close Volume Adj Close*
19-Sep-08 60.74 61.00 57.60 59.76 10,863,200 59.76
18-Sep-08 57.69 58.66 54.20 58.11 14,031,600 58.11
17-Sep-08 60.88 61.00 56.43 57.00 14,830,200 57.00
16-Sep-08 61.02 63.00 60.16 61.72 8,591,700 61.72
15-Sep-08 61.81 62.80 61.00 62.25 9,809,800 62.25
12-Sep-08 62.38 63.42 61.70 63.30 5,084,500 63.30
11-Sep-08 61.13 62.71 61.13 62.57 6,101,100 62.57
10-Sep-08 63.58 63.81 61.58 61.71 9,138,500 61.71
9-Sep-08 63.92 65.22 63.92 64.02 7,752,800 64.02
8-Sep-08 62.47 64.07 61.86 63.91 8,309,100 63.91
5-Sep-08 62.52 63.49 61.89 62.89 5,608,800 62.89
4-Sep-08 65.01 65.30 62.04 63.03 10,921,800 63.03
3-Sep-08 65.69 67.08 64.14 66.07 5,252,900 66.07
Doesn't look like a safe bet to me.
the cash rich defense companies are just
another free flowing cash bank for bush/cheney.
wonder if cheney's new home in dubai is ready
for his move in 2009 if he doesn't move sooner
to avoid arrest for his crimes against humanity?
bush will move to guatamala where his family
has bought up 68,000 acres.
Raytheon Stock Prices (flat):
Date Open High Low Close Volume Adj Close*
19-Sep-08 60.08 63.86 57.32 58.52 5,214,800 58.52
18-Sep-08 55.99 59.95 55.75 59.31 5,032,800 59.31
17-Sep-08 57.91 58.07 55.50 55.62 3,660,300 55.62
16-Sep-08 58.31 59.44 57.55 58.76 3,307,000 58.76
15-Sep-08 59.54 60.63 58.69 59.17 2,598,400 59.17
12-Sep-08 59.87 60.93 59.75 60.80 2,167,300 60.80
11-Sep-08 58.14 60.26 58.06 60.21 3,011,600 60.21
10-Sep-08 60.72 61.38 58.35 58.56 4,131,800 58.56
9-Sep-08 60.76 61.80 60.50 60.50 2,982,900 60.50
8-Sep-08 60.79 61.44 60.25 60.91 3,715,500 60.91
5-Sep-08 58.34 60.56 58.00 59.71 4,275,200 59.71
4-Sep-08 59.76 59.76 58.23 58.50 2,369,000 58.50
3-Sep-08 60.04 60.54 59.24 60.03 2,457,600 60.03
Left@27, LOL! I kind of miss them right now. I wonder what they think about Bush's approval rating on the economy is at 19%?
"Defense companies" Would that be, in most cases, euphemistic?
BennyP @ 28:
Think of it as corporate socialism. That's very much the same thing as fascism.
Randi Rhodes on her radio show just brilliantly compared us financing this bail out to Gov. Palin charging rape victims for their rape kits.
Slightly off topic:
Check out the latest editorial cartoon by Holbert.
http://d.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/umedia/20080922/cp.023cb88f9a1809d4aa02f...
How can Obama and McCain be TIED in a game where all you have to do is SHOW UP and NOT be a Republican to win? The answer is actually contained in the cartoon, I think. They're both shooting at the same basket, and the dumbass referees (the press) are not calling them on it. They're letting McCain run against his own party. (All but Tweety, that is. Now that he's suddenly decided to do his job.)
P.D. @ 14:
Because they are bigots. Nothing more. Nothing less. It doesn't bother them when a person with brown skin suffers any sort of pain, hardship or disaster. Their empathy meter runs out.
How about a windfall tax on the President's father? I believe he's benefited personally to the tune of several million as the result of his position on the Defense Group.
So if Paulson gets everything he has asked for, will he basically control the economy of this country? I'm not trying to be funny, but that's how it looks to me.
Weaseldog @ 34:
It really isn't.
In fact- it is nearly the opposite.
"It would be patriotic to give some back in the country’s hour of need. "
Like that will happen.
Trickle down = flows fast and freely up to the few and greedy.
Pericles @ 36:
MSM supported racism.
pissed off patricia @ 15:
It says what it always has about them:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mn4daYJzyls
Left&Left @ 35:
Sorry, but Randi Rhodes is not a credible source for anything. Not a fan. Glad she was fired from AAR. Big mouth, no cattle.
The Very Bitter Ceci Hussein @ 37:
They're not Christians. They are Dominionists.
BennyP @ 40:
It's NOT socialism.
It IS "corporatism," which is pretty nearly synonymous with 'fascism,' economically and politically, and about 50% socially.
Read Michael Harrington's terrific tome "Socialism"...It's long, but please refrain from using the term until you've actually understood it, okay?
Socialism (1972; New York: Bantam, 1973). "To the memory of Norman Thomas. And the future of his ideals." ISBN 0-8415-0141-6
that's what happened to liberalism...(with a small "el")
Uppity Blue Lensman @ 42:
chuy, meng, they just about invented it
KBR Historical Stock Prices:
Date Open High Low Close Volume Adj Close*
19-Sep-08 18.66 19.75 17.04 19.44 3,788,200 19.44
18-Sep-08 16.70 17.24 15.41 17.04 3,580,900 17.04
17-Sep-08 17.25 17.40 16.03 16.44 3,094,000 16.44
16-Sep-08 16.51 17.80 15.91 17.58 4,019,000 17.58
15-Sep-08 18.34 18.34 16.84 16.96 3,051,600 16.96
12-Sep-08 18.40 19.38 17.67 19.17 4,498,600 19.17
11-Sep-08 17.73 18.18 17.00 17.54 3,845,000 17.54
11-Sep-08 $ 0.05 Dividend
10-Sep-08 18.00 18.33 17.46 17.94 6,720,200 17.89
9-Sep-08 20.40 20.40 17.44 17.79 4,797,900 17.74
8-Sep-08 21.99 22.18 20.00 20.37 1,987,400 20.31
5-Sep-08 20.94 21.53 20.50 21.38 1,418,600 21.32
4-Sep-08 22.00 22.68 20.41 21.08 2,995,200 21.02
3-Sep-08 23.30 23.33 21.82 22.11 2,902,100 22.05
Not exactly soaring.
CMINCA @ 48:
in a market in which 75-80% equity loss has been pretty common in the affected stocks, they've done damn well...
Force Protection - stock doing so poorly it was delisted. Closed at $2.91 today. 52 week high was $31.16.
Where are all these defense contractor stocks that are doing so well. Maybe they're referring to privately held Blackwater?
woody, tokin librul @ 49:
I'm only showing one month. A bigger picture would be the 1 yr or 5 yr average. I suspect they've done pretty well during the last 7 years of perpetual war.
DynCorp 52 week range: $14.01 - $28.58, closed slightly down today at $18.01
Is China, a dominant islamic nation or communist? Or both.
Now the recent move from the oil rich countries and they are islamic will be controlling U.S. dollars soon. Half of Manhattan has been purchased by the islamic lords. Great, guys, the robber barons were concerned about themselves and have sold the rest of the middle class to the arabs.
They might be deciding the Obama elections, too.
“Fascism should more appropriately be called Corporatism because it is a merger of state and corporate power.”
-Benito Mussolini
woody, tokin librul @ 46:
Corporatism/fascism/para-fascism-YES.
The MSM labeling it 'socialism' misleads us into thinking of it as a leftist act- even when Repugs are mainly responsible for the event.
BennyP @ 40:
Maybe we don't see eye to eye.
I see corporate socialism as a government who's sole purpose is to subsidize and be controlled by corporations. The government exists to do the bidding of it's corporate masters and to print money and give it away to corporations.
In this view, human beings are just livestock with no rights.
pissed off patricia @ 39:
He will become the Ayatollah to Bush's Ahmadinejad, essentially America's new de facto dictator.
From last night's open thread, a very astute poster on NYT website lays it out:
http://www.crooksandliars.com/2008/09/21/open-thread-930/#comment-918195
Smart weapons made with Chinese electronics, purchased with money borrowed--in part--by the Chinese. Not that I'm getting xenophobic, much less sinophobic. But anybody feel like somebody's painted us into a corner here? Why do I have a nasty feeling that, twenty or thirty years down the road, the US will have no choice but to wring our hands on the sidelines during the Chinese-Taiwan "anschluss"?
woody, tokin librul @ 46:
I don't have time to read that, this minute. Nor is it here at my desk.
Replace human beings with corporations, forget humans exist. Is the analogy so far off?
BUSH administration trying to push this 'bailout' down our
throats.....without any oversight....'unfettered authority'
what the hell is going on. this is looking like a huge scam.
Whoops--make that "...borrowed--in part--from the Chinese. My bad.
woody, tokin librul @ 46:
I don't use the term socialism in this instance. Don't put words in my mouth.
I used the phrase 'corporate socialism'. In my view, this has a different meaning.
I don't have that book here. How does it define the phrase, 'corporate socialism'?
In the midst of this fianancial chaos, the Floridians have entrusted their confidence on Palin - the woman rather than the men.
Men have failed so far and it is wise to transfer the office to a woman who knows it all.
BTW, Chile has appointed a woman doctor as their president. I was tickled by the sight of four men walking behind her during a parade. The men looked so weak as if they were following their strong willed mother, lol.
I can understand why people in general are opposing Palin ticket, because she reminds them of their mother who had spanked them every time they stole the cookie from the jar, lol. The men have created their persona without the shadow of their mother as they grew old, and it is important to their survival.
But, you men have failed. You are a disaster! Your hand is still on that cookie jar. This time it is a money jar. You need a woman like Palin to discipline you. See the crowd of 60,000 desperate folks ready for a change in Washington D.C.
Grow some brains!
http://www.palmbeachpost.com/politics/content/state/epaper/2008/09/21/09...
Weaseldog @ 56:
I understand your POV- but you seem to be missing the point of socialism which is profit sharing with the citizens (not debt sharing- which we have). It sounds like you are thinking of Stalinism or Hitler's (misleadingly named) National Socialist Party.
BennyP @ 64:
Bingo
EZ @ 63:
Spare us your ersatz feminism and go back under your bridge, troll.
Weaseldog @ 65:
Okay- we are on the same page.
My original point was that tacking 'socialism' on the bail-out implies a leftist act even while the right wing was mainly responsible. I don't object to calling it 'corporatism' (which is probably more accurate than fascism- though pretty close).
BennyP @ 28:
many fascist societies are socialist. england is a socialist govt.
taxes are high in england, but the people get govt health care
and a lot more than we do.
dadams @ 68:
Too true.
Even Fascist Italy (under Mussolini) was a 'welfare state', quadrupling social aid to the poor.
Fascism comes in many forms and definitions. Many scholars even argue against labeling the Nazis as fascists because of certain factors that don't fit their definition.
However- there is nothing socialist about our gov or this bail-out. Look at the transparency of the Brit gov as compared to ours.
Let the shotgun sing it's song.
I'll settle for replacing pot dealers and prostitutes in prison with the M/I CEO's.
BennyP @ 69:
England is a police state! (cameras everywhere)...Most cameras per capita of any country ....period.
In England you are guilty until you prove your innocence.
Probably run a close second to America on the "most oppresive nation on earth"
Didnt we fight two wars w/those imperialist bastards?
England sucks...Scotland and Ireland are OK though!
Che's Lounge @ 70:
Hell yes!!!
Gee what a surprise.. The armaments industry is doin alright in all this.... That's just grand.. these are great days folks... Great days to be a gun runner or a banker...... I guess the real question is when is it not a great day to be into guns or banking... Good times or bad, they're making money.... The rest of us??? Ehh not so much.....JD
April Wine is only marginally effected by the crisis having invested heavily in kick-ass rock and pop tunes since the '70's!
The Carlyle Group Profits from Government and Conflict
Carlyle Group, a Washington, D.C.-based private equity firm that employs numerous former high-ranking government officials with ties to both political parties, was the ninth largest Pentagon contractor between 1998 and 2003, an ongoing Center for Public Integrity investigation into Department of Defense contracts found.
A dozen companies in which Carlyle had a controlling interest netted more than $9.3 billion in contracts.
...the Carlyle Group itself is not a manufacturer. It offers no services directly to the Pentagon, and has no defense contracts. Rather, it manages investments—some $18.4 billion from 600 individuals and entities in 55 countries, according to its Web site.
The firm's business is making money for these investors, the vast majority of whose identities ARE NOT DISCLOSED to the Securities and Exchange Commission or other government bodies.
So this is how you beat plowshares into swords in the modern age...
No shit. Because they have a steady flow of income from TAXPAYERS.
It's called corporate welfare.
Let's see, we've got taxpayer funds and subsidies flowing readily to private defense firms building planes and bombs to further the cause of private business,
private contractors who are fast-tracked for personal profits for our vice president,
private security firms like Blackwater that are creating new markets based on our national security,
private oil companies like Exxon that are raking in record profits and handing out record retirement packages while fleecing the public,
private investment banks like Lehman that are cheating the public then failing and taking their pensions AND more taxpayer money to bail them out,
meanwhile, ANYTHING that's FOR THE BENEFIT OF THE PUBLIC that IS SUPPOSED TO BE FUNDED BY OUR TAXES -- you name it, bridges, levees, schools, social security, public hospitals, any safety nets, regulators, safety inspectors for food, toys, etc., emergency agencies, public transport, the list goes on and on and on -- IS FAILING UTTERLY.
We can all name specific CATASTROPHIC failures of each of these, and ALL in the last 7 years. Minneapolis bridge, New Orlean levees, FEMA, lead paint in toys, mad cow tainted meat, L.A. train crash, foreclosures, Enron, folding banks, and on and on and on.
If you can't see what's happening by now, you're totally blind to the world.
Fixed the Telegraph link. Sorry it took me so long but I had to find it again after they moved it from their money pages to their comment pages.
BTW, Milquetoast at 72,
Yep, more cameras than anywhere - but recent studies show no-one is watching them. Lowest monitoring ratios in Europe. Political smoke and mirrors is all they are.
And where on earth did you get the ridiculous notion that the UK allows a legal assumption of guilt before trial?
Regards, C
I do contract work for CNH Capital, the financial services company that the Fiat CEO was talking about. We loan money to farmers and contractors to buy tractors, combines, backhoes, trenchers, etc. Most of the borrowers are small businessmen who work very hard and pay back their loans. It's a shame that the greed and stupidity of the mortgage lenders is impacting this sector. More evidence that Bush and his fellow travelers don't give a crap about the middle class.
I wonder how come a foreign company Halliburton is still a prefered contractor? If we're socializing companies why don't we socialize Lockheed it's not like any of their commercial clients would ever notice since they have none.
Andhakari @ 5:
Now there is a good idea! Would it happen? NO! Too bad.
Hey Guys just to let you know that I work for a defense contractor and you would be surprised as to the number of people against the war. I am also against the war.
I've read this site on and off for years and frankly, I'm amazed at the lack of edgy arguments going on.
I posted something about the entirely obvious obsufaction regarding the fucking military complex and a snark about them paying us back and it's apparently taken seriously (or not) and who the fuck knows.
I figured I'd check back on the thread and it's apparently tip-toe days on C&L because unless it was monitored for some weird-ass flame war, man. Boring city.
The solution is apparent then. Since the Defense Industry is in good health because of it's access to government money, then businesses, other than the crooks who caused this mess, should be afforded the same arrangement too, for a price.
Re: P.D. @ 15
Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.
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