Couldn't happen to a nicer country.

euthyfro @ 1:

capitalism has failed, period.

So when do we get socialized medicine?

Insightful commentary as always, Wolfie.. "like a roller coaster it goes up, it goes down.."

joe6pack @ 6:

Insightful commentary as always, Wolfie.. "like a roller coaster it goes up, it goes down.."

Deep.

Jo @ 4:

euthyfro @ 1:

capitalism has failed, period.

So when do we get socialized medicine?

As soon as the rich can't afford health care.

We (the Marxists) had been calling this the era of Capitalism's senile decay, last week saw the opening of The Weekend at Bernie's era of Capitalism.
Everyone knows it's dead & over but most will be fooling themselves into believing it can be "fixed" for a little while longer.

Could it really be that the market is unstable without 700b!? Watch the banks rally after congress passes the blank check to the POTUS to sign. And as usual the Dems will pass with minimal provisions because they're scared of losing seats in November if they don't act soon.

Jo @ 4:

euthyfro @ 1:

capitalism has failed, period.

So when do we get socialized medicine?

Just tear my medical bills up and toss them in the trash then healthcare is free.

Feel more secure? Me neither.

We R toast.

Here's what a plan for the people looks like:

http://backbonecampaign.org/storydetail.cfm?id=237

McCain is calling this the biggest crisis since WWII. Shouldn't he be calling this the worst crisis since the Georgia/Russia crisis?? (just a few weeks ago)

A few weeks ago, he called the Georgia crisis the same, the worst (international - as if the current financial one is not international..!) crisis since WWII.

Watch my words - he'll call the up-coming election the most contentious since WWII. Don't mind me, I wasn't born yet then, nor do I know about US elections back then (does McCain??) but I'm sure it'll come up!! ('Never has so much been at stake!!!)

Orangutan. @ 11:

Flashback: Ron Paul on the Coming Economic Collapse
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MCt2yRqlCcQ

Originally posted on YouTube, February 04, 2008.

paul came late to the game

thom hartman, bernie ward and kucinich had been warning about the crash for years, and connecting it (as klein has) to the greater attempt to rip apart every new deal program

just wait...we will be told that both medicare and the social security system are indeed bankrupt

this was the reagan plan

from the grave he spits on us all

So many shoes are poised to drop this week that the American scene might be confused for the world's greatest-ever clog dancing festival, but a closer look will reveal a circle of cavorting skeletons.

$700 Billion Bailout Plan Would Give Paulson Dictatorial Powers, Which CAN’T Be Reviewed by the Courts
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aZ2aFDx8_idM&refer=home

Welcome to the final stages of the coup…
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/larisa-alexandrovna/welcome-to-the-final-s...

We Have DAYS To Stop the $700 Billion Stick-Up (and Fascist Power Grab)
http://georgewashington2.blogspot.com/2008/09/we-have-days-to-stop-700-b...

Stupid Git @ 17:

idleuser @ 14:

Could it really be that the market is unstable without 700b!? Watch the banks rally after congress passes the blank check to the POTUS to sign. And as usual the Dems will pass with minimal provisions because they're scared of losing seats in November if they don't act soon.

Exactly.

Notice how no one would even consider pumping $700bn into paying off these bad loans so that American's can keep their homes. Can't let that happen because "We The People" would still have assets and wouldn't be the total servant class they are hoping for.

Why are these loans bad exactly? No one ever comments on that. The loans aren't bad, per se; the problem is that people had no ownership whatsoever in the homes they purchased, no pride of ownership and immorally felt it was okay to walk away from their debts rather than pay their bills.

I agree that the $700bn should have been used to help people refinance their debt, but there are tons of people out there who simply wanted to walk away when the value of their loan exceeded the value of their home (negative equity). That is a major part of this problem: short-sales.

Orangutan. @ 23:

A terrible situation is if the incompetence of the Bush Administration has put our economic system at risk. An even worse scenerio is if these top business men purposely let this disaster happen to gobble up our treasure and bring in new legislation that ensures their power grab continues well into the future. A Shock Doctrine of the highest degree so to say. We'll see.

With this bailout they will "win". It is nothing but a blatant wealth transfer from the unwashed masses to the rich.

We have no more assets, we have no more voice. We are a second class citizenry in a failed Democracy.

That pageant of happy idiocy is now ending.

Vote Dem or Repub, whatever your choice.

Good luck to you.

CMINCA @ 30:

Stupid Git @ 17:

idleuser @ 14:

Could it really be that the market is unstable without 700b!? Watch the banks rally after congress passes the blank check to the POTUS to sign. And as usual the Dems will pass with minimal provisions because they're scared of losing seats in November if they don't act soon.

Exactly.

Notice how no one would even consider pumping $700bn into paying off these bad loans so that American's can keep their homes. Can't let that happen because "We The People" would still have assets and wouldn't be the total servant class they are hoping for.

Why are these loans bad exactly? No one ever comments on that. The loans aren't bad, per se; the problem is that people had no ownership whatsoever in the homes they purchased, no pride of ownership and immorally felt it was okay to walk away from their debts rather than pay their bills.

I agree that the $700bn should have been used to help people refinance their debt, but there are tons of people out there who simply wanted to walk away when the value of their loan exceeded the value of their home (negative equity). That is a major part of this problem: short-sales.

Actually it is because some people lost jobs because of outsourcing and a bad economy. Other foreclosures happened because banks said no too renegotiating the terms. I wish everyone would quit blaming the victim.

Bailout. The idea is to dump the losses on people who had the good sense or sufficient control of their greed to avoid overextending themselves to begin with.

One can look backward.

At today.

Or Forward.

If I wanted to make money, I'd look today and forward.

I'd bet on war. Uncertainty.

Biggest con game in the history of the world and stupid Americans fall for it. You would think after the past eight years of lies we would be a little skeptical of their bullshit.

McCain the Liar @ 43:

Biggest con game in the history of the world and stupid Americans fall for it. You would think after the past eight years of lies we would be a little skeptical of their bullshit.

There are some Americans who do get it. But, there are those who don't have a clue and revel in that notion. The problem here is that the ones who don't have clue are making policy changes difficult. My question, is how do we even push the idea of change past the people who want to keep their heads in the sand?

L.A. Confidential @ 42:

VietVet8666 @ 35:

Vote Dem or Repub, whatever your choice.

Good luck to you.

I'm willing to guess that it's going to take a genuinely brutal collapse, one in which our citizens cannot get even the most basic necessities of life before the spell of American exceptionalism (ego trip) is broken.

You are, of course, correct.

CMINCA @ 46:

Ron @ 37:

CMINCA @ 30:

Stupid Git @ 17:

Why are these loans bad exactly? No one ever comments on that. The loans aren't bad, per se; the problem is that people had no ownership whatsoever in the homes they purchased, no pride of ownership and immorally felt it was okay to walk away from their debts rather than pay their bills.

I agree that the $700bn should have been used to help people refinance their debt, but there are tons of people out there who simply wanted to walk away when the value of their loan exceeded the value of their home (negative equity). That is a major part of this problem: short-sales.

Actually it is because some people lost jobs because of outsourcing and a bad economy. Other foreclosures happened because banks said no too renegotiating the terms. I wish everyone would quit blaming the victim.

I'm not blaming the "victim" and understand your point, but what you are referring to is a very minute portion of these short-sales and foreclosures. I've studied this extensively, dreading the inevitable results. I know realtors who warned clients not to get into deals they couldn't afford only to be told to STFU. The Bush Administration and the MSM created a panic where people felt forced to buy or they were "going to miss out on the American Dream". People for the first time in history felt it was okay to use the equity in their homes as an ATM machine. It is an incredible pheonomenon and one with dire consequences that people are only realizing have widespread consequences. Greed by lenders, mortgage brokers, Wall Street, coupled with Americans' need to live large and beyond their means, instant gratification, image, the moral failure to accept responsibility for one's actions and decisions created this mess. It was a marriage made in Hell. The blame lies squarely on everyone involved in each of these deals.

I know because I was one that told my clients what they should do and most listened. Some didn't but, they are not the majority.

VietVet8666 @ 47:

L.A. Confidential @ 42:

VietVet8666 @ 35:

Vote Dem or Repub, whatever your choice.

Good luck to you.

I'm willing to guess that it's going to take a genuinely brutal collapse, one in which our citizens cannot get even the most basic necessities of life before the spell of American exceptionalism (ego trip) is broken.

You are, of course, correct.

I suppose the lines at the cattle calls for American Idol will be stretching for 20 miles.

One thing is for sure; no matter how bad things get, the Wall St scumsuckers will find a way to profit on the ruin of everybody else.

if we are going to see $500/barrel oil, then you can bet that
the traders on wall st are speculating to push it's price up
to get back at any attempt to make them responsible for
the fiasco we are now in.

we have greedy bastard babies who can't get their
mommies to hold them, so they just want to FUCK EVERYONE
to get their way.

LibertyWatch @ 52:

All those "Golden Parachutes" for the banking execs as they slip away to their mansions and the worker bees are left out to dry and cope with the aftermath of this economic meltdown of the global economy.

Free Marketeers at their best, everybody for themselves! Grab what money you can as you run off the sinking ship. I just can't shake the feeling that this little bubble has sunk the country into depression. And I don't me your mental health.

I don't know about anyone else, but it is quite amazing that the Bush 43 presidency has employed the worst of the 20th century (war, depression, civil rights abuses, revising the Cold War) and put a new Millenium spin on it. The ugliest thing is that Bush has made all of these things an art form.

The man is certainly a sadist to the nth degree to unleash the hounds of hell upon the American people.

Ron @ 49:

CMINCA @ 46:

Ron @ 37:

CMINCA @ 30:
Actually it is because some people lost jobs because of outsourcing and a bad economy. Other foreclosures happened because banks said no too renegotiating the terms. I wish everyone would quit blaming the victim.

I'm not blaming the "victim" and understand your point, but what you are referring to is a very minute portion of these short-sales and foreclosures. I've studied this extensively, dreading the inevitable results. I know realtors who warned clients not to get into deals they couldn't afford only to be told to STFU. The Bush Administration and the MSM created a panic where people felt forced to buy or they were "going to miss out on the American Dream". People for the first time in history felt it was okay to use the equity in their homes as an ATM machine. It is an incredible pheonomenon and one with dire consequences that people are only realizing have widespread consequences. Greed by lenders, mortgage brokers, Wall Street, coupled with Americans' need to live large and beyond their means, instant gratification, image, the moral failure to accept responsibility for one's actions and decisions created this mess. It was a marriage made in Hell. The blame lies squarely on everyone involved in each of these deals.

I know because I was one that told my clients what they should do and most listened. Some didn't but, they are not the majority.

I also told my client what to do, but they were "betting" on the increase in equity. I always found that to be an interesting term, betting, but that is the term they used and they were correct. It was and is a casino. There are entire newly built communities here that are littered with for sales signs. I know Country Wide cannot keep up with the short-sales and they are months behind. I was frightened then and I am more frightened now, because on top of everything else, Americans seem to be lemmings that spook easily and will run off the end of the cliff with the first quick fix that comes along. This situation is not a quick fix.

Karen Marie@31;

Well dang! Read the driftglass post you provided a link for...
It was like this poster jumped inside my head... I am in agreement with this posters perspective on this shitstorm............JD

How the markets got to this point.. (funny, and serious...)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SwRFoxgEcHc

*From an English Perspective

Closing bell

Strange bedfellows - I'm listening to Newt Gingrich explain why the bailout is such a bad idea. Progressives and true conservatives on one side, corporatists (of both colors) on the other?

I am against the bail-out. Private corporations made lousy business decisions. The top people made millions, everyone else gets screwed. Let the companies fail. The few that made millions will need to watch their backs as I am sure things will happen, laws will change, and they will be hunted down and dealt with. We The People need to send a message. The message needs to be, steal from us and you die.....

As a progressive Democrat, it infuriates me to hear victim mentality and sentimentality in response to this collapse in our markets. I see some educated responses here, I read many educated responses in various publications and I hear a great deal of people calling for more thought and planning before actions. Every person that was involved in these subprime loans is co-responsible for what is happening in America. To claim that people didn't understand what they were getting into is NO EXCUSE or a lame excuse at best. Making a purchase of this magnitude DEMANDS that you know what the Hell you are doing. Educate yourself, talk to your banker (its free) or buy one hour of a CPA's time. Read a fuck*** book. And when your CPA, banker or realtor tells you cannot afford this, don't ignore them. Don't tell them that you simply have to have this or you never will or that you just know in your heart that your equity in that home will increase, before it is time to refinance, even though you've been warned you cannot afford your current mortage payment. When they tell you NOT to refinance, don't tell them you need a new car or your old furniture is too shabby for the new house. I've heard all the stories, a million times over and I've pulled my hair out and wrung my hands.

The me-first, instant gratification, living beyond my own means group has caused this mess, along with lots and lots of greedy and amoral financial wizards. The rest of us simply have to go along for the rollercoaster ride through the gates of Hell. Thanks a bunch.

I'm outta here.

Dirty Secret Of The Bailout: Thirty-Two Words That None Dare Utter

"DECISIONS BY THE SECRETARY... ARE NON-REVIEWABLE ... AND MAY NOT BE
REVIEWED BY ANY COURT OF LAW OR ANY ADMINISTRATIVE AGENCY"

..." one cannot overstate this: Section 8 is a singularly transformative sentence of economic policy. It transfers a significant amount of power to the Executive Branch, while walling off any avenue for oversight, and offering no guarantees in return. And if the Democrats end up content with winning a few slight concessions, they risk not putting a stop-payment on the real "blank check" - the one in which they allow the erosion of their own powers.

Over in the Senate, Christopher Dodd has proposed a bailout legislation of his own, which critically calls for "an oversight board that not only includes the chairman of the Federal Reserve and the SEC, but congressionally appointed, non-governmental officials" and would require the President to appoint an "independent inspector general to investigate the Treasury asset program." In Dodd's legislation, Section 8 is effectively stripped from the bill.

Nevertheless, the fact that Section 8 of the Paulson plan seems to strike few as a de facto dealbreaker can and should astound. The failure of Congress to hold the line on this point would be truly embarrassing. But if we make it through this week with nobody in the press specifically informing the public about the implications of this single sentence - in the middle of a complicated bill, in the middle of a complicated time - then right there, you have the single largest media failure of this year."

A DICTATOR is made overnight, with Dems compliance.

The 'market's reaction ? Would love it, so 'stable' !! Just as they loved Hitler, Mussolini, and Generallissimo Franco - great for Big Business. Never mind the people.

Vote no on the Wall Street bailout plan! Those greedy Wall Street Criminals need to be charged with treason for putting our national security at risk! They are blackmailing America! They are stealing America's wealth! You can't let them get away with this! Don't bail them out, seize them and their assets, then charge them with treasonous conspiracy to destroy America's economy!

History Lesson:

"The refusal of king George III to allow the colonies to operate an honest money system, which freed the ordinary man from the clutches of the money manipulators was probably the prime cause of the revolution." Benjamin Frandanklin, Founding Father.

Our country sought escape from this during the American Revolutionary war!

“All of the perplexities, confusion, and distress in America arises, not from the defects of the Constitution or Confederation, not from want of honor or virtue, so much as from downright ignorance of the nature of coin, credit circulation.” — John Adams

The Federal Reserve has the power to regulate the money supply and it's value, which gives it the power to bring entire economies to it's knees.

"Give me control of a nation's money supply and I care not who makes it's laws." -- Mayer Amschel Rothschild, Founder of Rothschild Banking Dynasty.

The Federal Reserve is a private corporation. It makes it's own policies and is under no regulation by the government. It is a private bank that loans all the currency, at interest, to the government.

"The real truth of the matter is that a financial element in the large centers has owned the government since the days of Andrew Jackson." Franklin D. Roosevelt, 1933

That's right, Andrew Jackson killed the Central BANK currently known as The Federal Reserve, but banking cartel came back when Woodrow Wilson took office. Look it up, maybe we can figure a way out of this freaking mess!

The central bank, or Federal Reserve, does not simply supply the governments money, it loans it at interest.

The central bank, or Federal Reserve, regulates the value of the currency being issued.

"I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous than standing armies ... if the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of currency ... the banks and corporations that will grow up around them will deprive the people of their property until their children wake up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered." -- Thomas Jefferson

"If you want to remain slaves of the bankers and pay for the costs of your own slavery, let them continue to create money and control the nations credit." -- Sir Josiah Stamp, 1880-1941

Dominate Banking Families:
J.D. Rockefeller, J.P. Morgan, Paul Warburg, Baron Rothschild.

"The Morgan interests took advantage ... to precipitate the panic [of 1907] guiding it shrewdly as it progressed." -- Fredrik Allen, Life Magazine.

Congressional investigation, lead by Nelson Aldrich, who had intimate ties to the banking cartels and later became part of the Rockefeller family through marriage. The Commission, lead by Aldrich, recommended a central bank be implemented, so a panic like 1907 could never happen again.

The Federal Reserve ACT was written by bankers. Woodrow Wilson promised to sign it into law in return for campaign support. Later Woodrow Wilson wrote in regret, "[Our] Great Industrial Nation is controlled by its system of credit. Our system of credit is privately concentrated. The growth of the nation, therefore, and all our activities are in the hands of a few men ... who necessarily, by very reason of their own limitations, chill and check and destroy genuine economic freedom. We have come to be one of the worst ruled, one of the most completely controlled and dominated governments in the civilized world. No government by free opinion. No longer a government by conviction and the vote of the majority, but a government by the opinion and the duress of small groups of dominate men."

Congressman Louis McFadden expressed the truth after the passage of the bill, "A world banking system was being set up here ... a superstate controlled by international bankers ... acting together to enslave the world for their own pleasure. The Fed has usurped the government."

From 1914-1919, The Federal Reserve increased the money supply by nearly 100%, resulting in extensive loans to small banks and the public. Then, in 1920, the FED called in mass percentages of the outstanding money supply, thus requiring the supporting banks to call in huge numbers of loans and just like 1907, bank runs, bankruptcy and collapse occurred. 5400 Banks went down.

Congressman Charles Lindbergh stepped up in 1921 and said, "Under the Federal Reserve Act, panics are scientifically created. The present of panic is the first scientifically created one, worked out as we figure a mathematical equation." That was just a warm-up.

From 1921-1929, the FED increased the money supply by 62%, resulting once again in extensive loans to the public and banks. The new type of loan was called a "margin loan" in the stock market. 10% down gets 100% control of the stock. The catch was at any time the loan could be called in. A 24 hour margin call could occur at any time.

A few months before October 1929, J.D. Rockefeller and other insiders quietly exited the market. Then on October 24th 1929, the New York financiers who furnished the margin loans started calling them in, in mass. Instantaneous massive sell off in market, everyone had to cover the margin loans. It then triggered mass bank runs for the same reason, callapsing 16 thousand banks, enabling conspiring international bankers to not only buy up rival banks at a discount, but to also buy up whole corporations at pennies on the dollar. It was the greatest robbery in American history. Rather than expanding the money supply to recover from this economic collapse, the FED actually contracted it, fueling one of the largest depressions in history.

Once again outraged, Congressman Louis McFadden, a long time opponent of banking cartels, began bringing impeachment proceedings against the Federal Reserve Board. Saying of the crash and depression, "It was a carefully contrived occurrance. International bankers sought to bring about a condition of despair, so that they might emerge the rulers of us all." Not surprisingly, after two assassination attempts, McFadden was poisoned at a banquet before he could push for impeachment.

“The government should create, issue, and circulate all the currency and credit needed to satisfy the spending power of the government and the buying power of consumers. The privilege of creating and issuing money is not only the supreme prerogative of government, but it is the government’s greatest creative opportunity. The financing of all public enterprise, and the conduct of the treasury will become matters of practical administration. Money will cease to be master and will then become servant of humanity.” -- Abraham Lincoln

Nearly all the illegal income tax goes to the FED to pay interest on the fraudulently produced currency! "If you ... examined [the 16th Amendment] carefully, you would find that a sufficient number of states never ratified that amendment." -- U.S. District Court Judge James C. Fox 2003.

There is no law in existence that requires you to pay the federal income tax. period.

“It is well enough that people of the nation do not understand our banking and monetary system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning.” — Henry Ford

The next tool for profit and control is WAR! WWI, WWII, Vietnam, Iraq, and Afghanistan.

WWI: "The large banking interests were deeply interested in the world war, because of the wide opportunities for large profits." -- William Jennings Bryan, Secretary of State.

The most lucrative opportunity of the banking cartels is war, for it forces the country to borrow even more money from the Federal Reserve, at interest.

Woodrow Wilson's top advisor and mentor was Colonel Edward House, a man with intimate connections with international bankers, who wanted in the war.

In a documented conversation between Colonel House and Sir Edward Grey, foreign secretary of england, regarding how to get america in the war:

Sir Edward Grey, "What will Americans do if Germans sink an ocean liner with american passengers on board?"

Colonel House, " I believe that a flame of indignation would sweep the United States and that by itself would be sufficient to carry us into war."

I bet you can connect nearly all wars to the greedy bankers on Wall Street. They make double money because they loan money to both sides! They supply materials to both sides!!

All the Federal Reserve and the Banking Cartel on Wall Street has given us is perpetual debt and wars!!!

VietVet8666 @ 25:

Everyone here says, fuck the system, I've got my own.

Which is what the evil fucks want you to believe.

That you're OK. That you've got your own.

While they loot the country.

While Obama stands by. Because he wants to be prez.

i am now sure exactly where your head is
and it must be dark and stinky.

we are in an election year, what do you want? for obama
to walk alway and let mcfuckhead and ms lipshits just have
the country and the election? you are a real piece of work.

Record increase in oil prices today. Caught the pump at $3.29 and topped off today.

As far as the market is concerned, this is the first manifestation that I've noticed in the market that deficits will eventually produce inflation. People in this country just don't learn. We heard during the Nasdaq run up that earning and revenues don't matter, because it's a new economy. That's nonsense. And during the last 8 years, we heard that federal deficits don't matter, and that's nonsense. I heard that myself from that bastion of truth, Dick Cheney, who, as I understand, has invested in TIPS (Treasury Inflation Protected Securities) and bonds denominated in foreign currency.

So, how did we get here? The corporate media would like to obfuscate it, but I'll take a stab at it. In Feburary, 2004, Alan Greenspan uttered "American consumers might benefit if lenders provided greater mortgage product alternatives to the traditional fixed-rate mortgage." We got these sub-prime mortgages that got bundled into securities, and these securities were wrongly graded AAA so that they could be sold for more than they were worth. (I think a crime may have occurred here, a scheme to defraud investors). And the administration ran up the deficits so aggressively that we're not going to take this hit without pain. If we had Clinton's balanced budgets, we could take this hit.

What I don't quite understand yet is the impact that derivatives played in this. Leveraged purchases of stock played a part in the 1929 crash, leading to limits on margin. I suspect that a more sophisticated leverage scheme utilizing "credit default swaps" have undermined the markets. That might be part of the AIG malaise.

Meanwhile, I saw on 60 minutes, a tax cut ideologue in John McCain. While Obama's tax cut is revenue neutral, McCain will drive up the deficits further. He just stammered when asked about the deficits. I hate to burst people's bubble, but we're not going to be able to spend a dollar that we're not taking in indefinitely by borrowing. The foreigners aren't going to lend forever to a sub-prime debtor nation that looks like its only option to pay back the loans is to print money like a banana republic. And these foreigners are going to be thinking the exact same thing the market was thinking today.

NoBuddy @ 79:

Record increase in oil prices today. Caught the pump at $3.29 and topped off today.

As far as the market is concerned, this is the first manifestation that I've noticed in the market that deficits will eventually produce inflation. People in this country just don't learn. We heard during the Nasdaq run up that earning and revenues don't matter, because it's a new economy. That's nonsense. And during the last 8 years, we heard that federal deficits don't matter, and that's nonsense. I heard that myself from that bastion of truth, Dick Cheney, who, as I understand, has invested in TIPS (Treasury Inflation Protected Securities) and bonds denominated in foreign currency.

So, how did we get here? The corporate media would like to obfuscate it, but I'll take a stab at it. In Feburary, 2004, Alan Greenspan uttered "American consumers might benefit if lenders provided greater mortgage product alternatives to the traditional fixed-rate mortgage." We got these sub-prime mortgages that got bundled into securities, and these securities were wrongly graded AAA so that they could be sold for more than they were worth. (I think a crime may have occurred here, a scheme to defraud investors). And the administration ran up the deficits so aggressively that we're not going to take this hit without pain. If we had Clinton's balanced budgets, we could take this hit.

What I don't quite understand yet is the impact that derivatives played in this. Leveraged purchases of stock played a part in the 1929 crash, leading to limits on margin. I suspect that a more sophisticated leverage scheme utilizing "credit default swaps" have undermined the markets. That might be part of the AIG malaise.

Meanwhile, I saw on 60 minutes, a tax cut ideologue in John McCain. While Obama's tax cut is revenue neutral, McCain will drive up the deficits further. He just stammered when asked about the deficits. I hate to burst people's bubble, but we're not going to be able to spend a dollar that we're not taking in indefinitely by borrowing. The foreigners aren't going to lend forever to a sub-prime debtor nation that looks like its only option to pay back the loans is to print money like a banana republic. And these foreigners are going to be thinking the exact same thing the market was thinking today.

It's hard for people to understand that money today is based on debt and not value. Inflation will eventually occur but not right now. People are not going to be running around with wheelbarrows of cash anytime soon. Deleveraging all the derivatives is creating a cash black hole. When money is based on debt, you only have as much "cash" as you have out on loan. Therefore when you write off loans, you effectively take cash out of the system. The Fed has no choice but to reflate by injecting massive amounts of cash into the system ($700 billion give or take), otherwise you get what happened in the great depression - a massive shortage of cash.

The reflation completely changes the governement balance sheet however. Both Obama and McCain's propsals are out the window. Much more of U.S. government revenue will now have to service debt. The next 5 years includes extremely painful spending choices no President will have faced since FDR. Be assured that a good portion of the debt will eventually be paid off in the form of inflation. People need to come to terms with this and plan accordindly.

CBC Newsworld had a great documentary on this last night. I'm not sure if there is a link available, but it is required viewing in my opinion. They refer to this crisis as the biggest pyramid scheme, money grab in modern history, and back it up with facts. Americans, don't let your government steal your hard earned cash to give to a bunch of worthless scavengers that do not deserve it. Let them sink. They've already made their money. It won't crash the economy any worse than throwing money at Iraq.

it looks like we're finally about to get a government so small we can fit it into a bathtub. henry paulson, one man, in charge of EVERYTHING.

now, what did grover turdquest say we were supposed to do when we got the government this small? i can't remember...

Uppity Blue Lensman @ 68:

Strange bedfellows - I'm listening to Newt Gingrich explain why the bailout is such a bad idea. Progressives and true conservatives on one side, corporatists (of both colors) on the other?

gingrich is just pissed he can't get a slice.

euthyfro @ 1:

capitalism has failed, period.

The issuance of our currency is controlled by the Federal Reserve. That's NOT free market capitalism. It's plutocratic socialism. In fact, you've never lived in a free market economy, unless you were born prior to 1913.

I know that there's an urge out there to write more laws, but think about it for a moment. We already HAVE passed laws. The SEC stands as a giant regulatory body, ostensibly created to regulate exactly the kind of thing that's going on right now. And yet, it apparently couldn't, or wouldn't do anything to stop it.

The Federal Reserve has quite a few smart people working for it. They were quite capable of counting the total money supply, and figuring out that the massive credit expansion was going to create the problems that we see today. And despite the fact that the conventional KEYNESIAN solution was to raise rates, and deal with a slight downturn, the Fed did nothing but LOWER rates.

Go ahead. Pass as many RULES as you may want. But if the people who are supposed to ENFORCE those rules don't know how to do their jobs, then the same mistakes will be repeated.

Or, you can go the route of our first poster, who's lived in a SOCIALIST ECONOMY all of his life, yet for some reason thinks that CAPITALISM and FREE MARKETS are to blame, and get your well-oiled, finely-tuned machine of a government to take over...

Think people.

StCyrlyMe 2 says,

If you notice this administration, including McSain and Co, now don't seem to think Government is such a bad thing.

They have managed to screw up all this money and run this country in the ground, now they are applying for Government Welfare, to bail them out.

This happens each and every dame time the republicans get in power. They get a clean slate and then they try to privatize everthing with no oversite or accountability and wham, here we go again. Only this time tops all that they have been allowed to do

This is testomony to what will happen if McSain should somehow manage to steal this election and get his disgusting ass in the white house, when most well knowledged of the issues, Americans knows that he has been a crusader for deregulation, his entire time spent in the Senate, and his voting record reflects this.

The very fact they want to continue to co-mingle Corporate America, with the more complicated operation and workings of the Federal Government systems, is an example of total incompetence and ill experience.and the fact that they continue to spew all this miss information to the public is simply criminal, to say the least..

A very good and clear example of the continued mess they are making is the arrogant insistence of allowing these major corporations,to continue the practice of not be accountable in both their responsibility to the consumers and of paying their fair share of TAXES..

Unfortunately we are graced with a bunch of ignorant clowns, all over our national media, whom are clearly inexperienced and unaware of the danger they too pose, by not bringing forth the brightest of our citizens, who are experienced in these areas.

They too want you to think, they know what the hell they are talking about, and they clearly do not. This insane notion of refusing to TAX these institutions and make them accountable or shut them down, is the real problem,

Senator Obama, clearly understands the needs and the roll that Government should play and he takes the very unpopular stand to call it as he sees it, Unlike McSain, who will continue this sick notion of allowing these corporate institutions to continue not paying their share of TAXES and allowing them to call their own shots, without Government intervention.

Obama is a Constitutional Scholar, with an extensive background in the workings of Federal Government. He has made it his life's work and anyone that knows as he does, the big differences is able to see this. These people have been able to blow smoke up our asses because they simply know most Americans don't understand and they take that notion and run with it. We have a real treasure in this guy.

We are currently now experiencing the down side of what can happen when we allow private agencies to run as they please without the proper checks and balances. They are not accountable to the audit process and when
they are, They show complete disregard for checks and balances and they fail to take the necessary corrective and punitive action required, to show that they understand that it is not an option to run a clean, accountable and consistent operation. By standards of federal law it is a requirement that must have consequences,if not followed
to the letter..

American people should NOT, continue to be responsible for the incompetent management of these corporations, whom are clearly not following the guidelines, set by the government, and it the major reason they are driving themselves in the hole, in the first place. This practice has to stop.

They need to understand fully that there are NO huge severance packages, given to incompetent management, what-so ever, and you cannot screw up billions and billions of Tax Payer dollars and still keep your job in federal government . They may not fire you, depending on the situations, but certainly, you will not continue to be in the job you have clearly shown you are not competent to manage, like the current cabinet staff of the Bush administration.

They clearly do not understand that they must operate in a consistent and open setting to show that they are consistently in compliance with regulations and they don't want that, which is why they all hate the Federal Government and want to PRIVATIZE IT.

These incompetent Bush appointments in all these Federal Cabinet Post, were purposely made to show government in the exact light the republicans want us to view it, As incompetent and inefficient, so as to continue this mantra of needing to privatize it. They show this by the insistence of keeping these incompetent morons, in the very positions they have been shown to be ill, equipped to manage and a good example is FEMA, which is headed by Michael Chertoff. Need I say more

Government is not a cash machine at all, but a necessary institution, designed to be the eye's and ears of the American people who do not have time to monitor private business, who are for profit,

They must be accountable period, and who better to force accountability but the Federal Government, who is accountable to the American people. That is when we have real qualified individuals managing it. They have created this mystical atmosphere of their interpretation of what they want the public to believe government is about, which is simply not the true picture.and I believe that Senator Obama clearly understands exactly what these folks are up too, and will conduct the proper adjustments using good qualified people to bring the agencies into compliance. I know that he knows this because he talked about in his book the Audacity of Hope, which is what sold me on him as a real leader, with a very good understanding of how and why our Government is so important to all of us..

Peace

The Devil Must Be Putting on his Ice Skates

Who'd a thought that our free market Republicans/Conservatives 'masters of the universe' would become stock market socialists. I wonder, does this mean that hell has frozen over?

Even when they totally screw up, US presidents, bankers and weathermen get to keep their jobs. Why?

OK, the weatherman is amusing, but what of the other two.

But, thank God we have socialism for the rich. Seriously, how would they make the payments on their multi-million dollar mansions and Mercedes’ without a little helping hand from Joe Middle Class American Taxpayer - who might even get to keep his job, if those market boys don’t ship it to China with the rest of America’s wealth.

http://blogoffanddie.wordpress.com

So long Dubya, we'll always have debt and Guantanamo. Vote McCain/Palin and build a bomb shelter.

This may be really hard on the people but it would be worth it to see a lot of these crooked bankers and swindlers commit suicide! Maybe we could get some footage of them jumping out of tall buildings.

Bush has already said he will veto Dodd's plan if it makes it through Congress. It's OK to bailout Corporations but not regular folks. Thanks Asshole!

We have a fiat currency bubble burst.

Financial Crisis Fundamental Foundation Flaws and Solution

Congress is tapping into this info today.

On http://coinage.me/

The flaws are articulated in detail as well as the solution which involves a New Global Value Exchange Accounting System they have a list of power questions that media and journalists can ask.

One interesting ironic insight is a small fortune can be made off pennies as a result of the amazing paradox resulting from current market conditions. 1 lb of pennies is worth $6.00 tangible and only $3.00 intangible.

They make an interesting point why shouldn't the bail out (citizens going into debt) go to pay off the mortgages and then trickle down to those firms needing to be bailed out?

Read the power questions. http://coinage.me/power_questions.htm