200 point hit?

Try 500+ with 200 points in the first hour of trading.....

I love this. It is the best thing to happen to democracy in our country in a LONG TIME.

Time to drive a knife in their collective hearts.

We ought to call their bluff and refuse to pass a bill until a solid majority of them are on board. The inevitable market hit will then be laid at their doorstep. Let them take responsibility for tomorrow’s 200 point hit.

Well put, SP, well put.

TDS's opening piece is comparing Bush's Iraq fear mongering with his speech last night - spot on!

I dare the Republicans to say something positive about McCain's leadership now.

McCain is going to show the world what a "maverick" he is.

Thinker @ 8:

I believe the term might be pathologically reckless. The man is over the edge and there are still over 40% of this populace who are so stupid, so filled with vengeance that they will vote for him. We better be praying for a 10% bailout on our collective IQ. I'm not a drinker, but I'm buying a bottle of bubbly and a bottle of whiskey for election night. I'll choose which one to abuse about 9:00.

I've laid away a few supplies for tomorrow night's "debate". It could be a real deciding moment if Obama gets to shine without opposition.

This was always going to happen, it's how it always happens. Sometimes it backfires on the Republicans, most times it doesn't. I hope it does and the whole damn GOP dissolves in total chaos, but the odds are against that.

Democratic strategy:
1. Collaborate.
2. Get kicked in the balls.
Repeat as needed.

Democratic strategy, in easily digestible cartoon form:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ebpod5LqFts

"NO BAILOUT" is the only strategy that will win this one.

"The inevitable market hit will then be laid at their doorstep."
By whom? The party faithful will believe any story that's spun to them.

"Let them take responsibility for tomorrow’s 200 point hit."
How can this be assured? Can't they just blame the stalemate on the Democrats?

The dems can finally affort to write a bill as strongly as they'd like with the backing of the murikan people. Repug oppostion will be calamitous. Will the dems have the balls??

Naahh.

Okay...my question is why weren't Barney Frank and Chris Dodd on this back in 2006 when the magical democratic majority was elected? In my ignorance maybe they were. All I can say is I hope Frank and Dodd can get something worked out that will help those that need it the most, the average American. I heard one of those Republican suggestions, lower the capital gains tax, and my heart sank (did anyone pass a basic economics course on the republican side, ever?). Shit I'd use that paper of republican suggestions/ plan as as a rolling paper because good lord that's the only way I'm going to be able to deal with this insanity. (Ohhh and my bank, WaMu, just failed! Bring out the champagne, people!)

CoIntelPro for Pronktastic Victory Over SCLM, DIEBOLD, ESS and SEQUOIA! @ 50:

This guy is a such a fuckwad

McCain Aide Claims Credit For Deal, Says "We're Going Into A Debate"</blockquote

I truly wonder why there is this delusion that a bailout will accomplish anything for workers or homeowners.

Hopefully, Michigan's Tim Walberg won't be participating in the next congress.
-------------------------------------------------------------------

Today a new internal poll released by Myers Research & Strategic Services for congressional candidate Mark Schauer (D-Battle Creek) shows the state Senator leading incumbent Congressman Tim Walberg 42% - 36%, outside the 4.38% margin of error.
"Walberg has been on the air lying about Mark Schauer's record of fighting for jobs and protecting kids for more than a month, and it's clear that people simply aren't buying what he's selling," said Schauer campaign manager B.J. Neidhardt. "There's still a long way to go before Election Day, but voters are clearly rejecting the Bush-Walberg economic policies that have devastated Michigan's economy."

The Very Bitter Ceci Hussein @ 7:

I dare the Republicans to say something positive about McCain's leadership now.

bin laden tape coming soon.

rmp @ 22:

jo, I'km using Chrome. So it isn't a firefox thing.

[It's been fixed. If you tried to play it, you may have to clear your browser's cache to get it to work-Sitemonitor]

You darlings just fixed it.!! Many thanks!!

jane from hell @ 26:

Cointel, I'm as broke as I can be. Let 'em try and scare me.

I know what you mean, quite personally.

IN response to:

"This is all classic Republican political gamesmanship. The bailout is widely unpopular and House Republicans — being the unserious, petty people that they are — are trying to link all the fallout to Bush and the Democrats in order to boost their electoral prospects."

Republicans are trying to tie this mess to..... Bush? Um, have people forgotten: Bush is a Republican. Interesting strategy.

McCain Screws Up Bailout, Confuses Shia with Sub-Prime Mortgages

Uppity Blue Lensman @ 3:

We ought to call their bluff and refuse to pass a bill until a solid majority of them are on board. The inevitable market hit will then be laid at their doorstep. Let them take responsibility for tomorrow’s 200 point hit.

Well put, SP, well put.

Exactly, the minute the put forth a bill, Dems should revolt to put Country First. This is how the repubs have played this game in the past...revolt, then force the hand. I say it is time for Dems to wake-up and call their hand, revolt while McCain is in front of the cameras spewing his dribble...have Reid just turn and look at him and say, oh we don't believe it is the taxpayers interest to finance golden parachutes for your friends.

Cointel, what a great comment you link to. Now I need a smoke.

Uppity Blue Lensman @ 5:

TDS's opening piece is comparing Bush's Iraq fear mongering with his speech last night - spot on!

'give me your wallets or your kids dont go to college'

of course with the ever expanding cost of college, people are struggling and getting into major debt for college now.

I think the Dems should take advantage of these stalling tactics and stop trying to negotiate how much lipstick to put on the pig that is Paulson's bill. How about we not let ourselves get rushed into signing onto Bush's plan and take some time to actually figure out what might help us make our way through this crisis--and I'm pretty damn sure it's not as simple as "cash for cr*p." That would be great for Goldman Sachs and Warren Buffet but for the rest of us, not so much.

Steve @ 33:

Republicans are trying to tie this mess to..... Bush? Um, have people forgotten: Bush is a Republican. Interesting strategy.

Republicans have been trying very hard to avoid being identified as...Republicans. In Washington state, the Republican candidate for Governor is trying to be listed on the ballot as "prefers GOP" instead of as the Republican that he is. That's how poisoned the Republican "brand" is these days.

More Deregulation and tax breaks for the rich! Isn't that what McCain did after the Keating 5 scandal?

We should check the Asian Banks on Bloomberg...( last night there Bank Runs and Huge market dumps....)if they dump- we dump...400 points by noon is my perdiction....the house repugs are being shortsighted- WHO does this help ? they don't even like McCain why would they participate in his stunt ?

Jeez, 46, did you mean gRavel?

I am not in line with the common sense approach that McCain did this to stall...this was in the plan I think roughly 2 weeks ago. Methodical...yes, well thought out...no, but some voters will understand and this plays on their emotions. The grandma that still has to riffle through her purse for change to pay for the meds or the parents that have to save change for their kid to buy milk at school...it all fits into this narrow box. The view I take is one that McCain has missed...he is running like a coward from the economy and must seek shelter from those that think exactly like him or at least of the same vein. It shows the public he is willing to take a chance, albiet one a chance on their future, not his...he will be at no great financial loss.

I see the repugs supporting one bill, bringing it to the floor, and stating before it even makes it...we have drafted a bill that would put the taxpayer in the drivers seat. The dems will be in the position to only respond, which if history is the guide, they will accept this with little compromise. When what they should do is come out in the morning, present a plan with Dodd in the lead, call McCains bluff, and create a sense of "we're on board for the American People, where are you", this paints McCain even deeper into the corner with little option but to accept or head for the debate.

This is a political game of cat and mouse. If the dems go ahead and pass a bill without republicans and let the aftermath unfolds the repugs will blame the dems for passing such a bill that did nothing to help. If the dems don't do anything who are the majority of both the house and senate the repugs will place the blame on the dems for not passing anything.

Either way John's McCain's roll in this fiasco will be to rally the dems and repugs and introduce a bipartisan bill and be the savior of this "economic crisis." I say don't pass any bill until both parties are on the line talking. Will America fall once again for the shock once again? lets hope not.

200?

Wouldn't be at all shocked to see a 1000 point drop by close tomorrow.

grampy mcshitstaininsane is now officially McCOWARD. what a fuckin pussy he is and EVERYONE knows it. if he doesn't have the NADS to show up for the debate he might as well stick a fork in his campaign.

Check out this statement opposing the bailout that was sent to Congress today from several hundred top Economics professors:

http://faculty.chicagogsb.edu/john.cochrane/research/Papers/mortgage_pro...

I hope the Obama and the Democratic Leadership will be seriously considering the points these top economists are making before they "sign off" on any deal with Bush/Paulson.

And here's a HUGE reason Sarah Palin doesn't have a snowball's chance in hell of having any credibility next to Sen. Joe Biden (and after their debate the whole world will know it):

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/stephen-fox/biden-has-done-more-than_b_129...

the dems should propose a commission of respected economists, bankers, and financial investers and let them sort through this and try to come up with a strategy get past this mess. this is a political problem but politicians just don't have the wherewithall to solve this on their own.

What next? Invent an excuse to suspend the elections?

Congress has tremendous leverage to create this program in a way that will best benefit the people of this country. These companies are sinking and just about out of time and practically standing in the street with their hands out, yet watch with me while the Congress simply asks for symbolic gestures like some kind of cap on executive pay, which probably amounts to a savings of about 0.0001% of this $700B, and then just gives away the store. I don't give one shit about exec. pay when you're talking about handing over $700B of our money to the same crooks and immoral assholes who got us here in the first place and not asking any more in return but that they the limit the pay of the CEOs. Is that the best they can do? Boy, they're really playing hardball this time, aren't they?

I mean, what's Barney Frank up to here when he's pushing McCain and Republicans to play ball on "one of the most important proposal President Bush has ever put forth" and quoting Paulson on what will or won't work? This guy is making me nervous as hell. Is he still a Democrat or did he change parties and become a Bushie when I wasn't looking? I don't like where I see this going. Executive pay? You've got to be kidding me! How many times do I have to see this movie? It always ends the same way. The Republicans ask for the moon and the Democrats meet them 9/10 of the way to the moon and call it a "compromise."

CoIntelPro for Pronktastic Victory Over SCLM, DIEBOLD, ESS and SEQUOIA! @ 66:

jane from hell @ 39:

Cointel, what a great comment you link to. Now I need a smoke.

I guess I picked the wrong time to quit smoking.

Least there's always glue sniffing ...............

Kucinich_Nader_Gavel @ 46:

Good. Break it. I lost any use for Barney frank last year when he started selling out on "comprimises" with "the business community". He's (almost) as bad as the Thugs with talk of what a "crisis" this is.

It's a crisis for Goldman-Sachs et al. There lot's of money to be had - just ask any defense contractor - they're not having problems borrowing. Or the credit card companies. They're got money to burn and will lend you as much as you'd like. The problem is rates (for you and I) which the government can do a lot about without "rewarding Paulson's buddies reckless and borderline criminal behavior.

I've yet to hear ANY reasons why we should not let these dopes crash and burn. Before you say I'm bitter notice that I DON'T say "they'd let us hang". The reason we should "let them hang" is that "rescuing" them is counterproductive. Besides the fact it encourages precisely the type of practices that get them (not us) into this fix (see Chrysler bailout) it is open ended. There's literally over a hundred trillion of mortgages outstanding.

The solution to this problem (as it were) is to regulate, not recussitate.

goldman sachs and lehman are part of the FEDERAL RESERVE SYSTEM.
Pretty cozy, eh?

MCMetal @ 69:

CoIntelPro for Pronktastic Victory Over SCLM, DIEBOLD, ESS and SEQUOIA! @ 66:

jane from hell @ 39:

Cointel, what a great comment you link to. Now I need a smoke.

I guess I picked the wrong time to quit smoking.

Least there's always glue sniffing ...............

And stop calling me Shirley.

PREPARATIONS
| 1. Food | 2. Manna Meals | 3. Water | 4. Sanitation | 5. Medical, health |
| 6. Kerosene heaters and cookers | 7. Lighting | 8. Wood cooking and heating |
| 9. Communications | 10. Essential Tools | 11. Home built items |
| 12. Electrical; generators and power | 13. War preparedness | 14. Gardening |

Hurry, while supplies last!

jane from hell @ 73:

MCMetal @ 69:

CoIntelPro for Pronktastic Victory Over SCLM, DIEBOLD, ESS and SEQUOIA! @ 66:

jane from hell @ 39:
I guess I picked the wrong time to quit smoking.

Least there's always glue sniffing ...............

And stop calling me Shirley.

Roger!

Read this comment on another blog.

Looks like the trap has been set for Obama and the Dems:

Hopefully I’m just paranoid, but here’s what I imagine is happening. The McCain campaign knows that they are losing. The republicans cannot afford to lose, that is not an option for them, they would be looking at very damaging investigations when Obama wins.

Congress is on the verge of a settlement on the bailout. John McCain enters the scene. Like the good foot soldiers that the republicans are, they decide to follow their leader McCain and scuttle the bailout. Friday morning there will be a new plan put forward by the republicans, the McCain plan. All the republicans, the talk radio shows, Fox, even Bush and Paulson will push it. They will say that this plan shows McCain’s great leadership ability, and try to sell to the American people the idea that the McCain plan will save the economy. Of course the pressure will be on the democrats to vote for it. If they do, it will be a huge boost for the McCain campaign. If they don’t, the democrats will be accused of putting politics before country. Of course for this to work the MSM will have to jump on the McCain bandwagon.

Okay, what do the Dems do about this?

Kucinich_Nader_Gavel @ 46:

Good. Break it. I lost any use for Barney frank last year when he started selling out on "comprimises" with "the business community". He's (almost) as bad as the Thugs with talk of what a "crisis" this is.

It's a crisis for Goldman-Sachs et al. There lot's of money to be had - just ask any defense contractor - they're not having problems borrowing. Or the credit card companies. They're got money to burn and will lend you as much as you'd like. The problem is rates (for you and I) which the government can do a lot about without "rewarding Paulson's buddies reckless and borderline criminal behavior.

I've yet to hear ANY reasons why we should not let these dopes crash and burn. Before you say I'm bitter notice that I DON'T say "they'd let us hang". The reason we should "let them hang" is that "rescuing" them is counterproductive. Besides the fact it encourages precisely the type of practices that get them (not us) into this fix (see Chrysler bailout) it is open ended. There's literally over a hundred trillion of mortgages outstanding.

The solution to this problem (as it were) is to regulate, not recussitate.

What are we bailing these Fat Cats out from? THE DUBIOUS RESULTS OF THEIR OWN GREED.

Why does anyone believe the Chimp in Chief ABOUT ANYTHING? Least of all this. He is attempting a $700 billion heist!!!!

Here is Nader on the 'bailout'. It is best to watch to the end.

I rather suspect as far the 'debate' shenanigans that McCain et al do not want Palin in with Biden who will wipe the floor with her, so to speak.
They therefore are attempting this gambit to push the 'debate' tomorrow back displacing and therefore canceling the VPs.

I call it a 'debate' because it doesn't include the other three ballot certified candidates.

Let Nader, Barr and McKinney in to have a real debate. I know Nader is ready willing and able. As he says, without regulation, the Corporations know no limit to their greed. It is limitless!

Barr is slightly entertaining, let's hear him explain why we need LESS WALL STREET REGULATION. Something like the CROOKS WEREN'T RUNNING WILD ENOUGH!!!

And I would like to hear from McKinney.

silentpatriot,

this "bailout" is a total scam. please WAKE UP.

there are prominent thinkers on both sides of the aisle who are saying, "NO" to any bailout, period.

read "shock doctrine" by naomi klein. DO NOT NEGOTIATE WITH TERRORISTS.

this is a scam, did you learn nothing from 9/11 and the "patriot" act?

we are now in a place similar to marvel comics "civil war". please don't be blinded by simple party allegiance. there are good guys and bad guys on both sides of the aisle.

you will be surprised that some people you THOUGHT were bad guys are actually GOOD guys, and vice versa.

barney crank is a lying puppet, so are schmuck schumer, dianne frankenstein, stinky hoyer, nancy peloser and chris dudd.

THE FIX IS IN.

PRAY for our F.B.I.!!

Chris Yoder @ 75 Says:

Ahhh , who gives a shit what a cancervative twit has to say..........BTW Chris , thanks for you and your equally retarded GOP leg humping brethren for foisting the worst president in US history in Chimpy upon us......

Washington Mutual just collapsed and was forced into a shotgun marriage with JP Morgan. There were numerous other predatory bankers from all over the world eager to pick up the pieces of WaMu. Fuck the bail-out, which is nothing but the last brazen heist of taxpayer money by the Bush administration. All the failing financials will we snapped up at the prices they're really worth and Hank Paulson will lose three quarters of his personal fortune (shares in Goldman Sachs).

A bit more detail here:
Angry W. House meeting roils Wall St bailout talks

Senior Democrats said they came away from the afternoon White House session with the impression that McCain was backing an entirely new Wall Street rescue plan, one differing markedly from a Bush administration proposal under discussion for days.

Massachusetts Democratic Rep. Barney Frank, chairman of the House of Representatives Financial Services Committee and a participant in the White House gathering, said negotiations could be set back by the confusion.

"House Republicans, in some kind of arrangement with McCain, went off to wherever. I don't know whether they're ready to negotiate this. Their thing was some totally different mortgage insurance plan ... that would clearly delay this for a week or more," Frank told reporters.
..

"We're not going to give up," Frank said, pledging that Democrats will not bring a bill to the floor that lacks support from both parties. But he added, "If the House Republicans continue to reject the president's approach, there's no bill."

Frank said negotiations would continue on Friday, but with no sign that House Republicans would take part.

Bush's plan has met fierce opposition on Capitol Hill. Democrats have offered a counter-proposal adding provisions to impose more oversight; boost efforts to prevent foreclosures; give the government a stake in companies participating in the program; and limit executive pay of participating companies.

On Thursday, a small group of conservative House Republicans -- including Texas' Jeb Hensarling and Virginia's Eric Cantor -- offered their own alternative to the Bush proposal. Focused on mortgage insurance, the one-page alternative plan was presented to reporters at a briefing.

The plan calls for the U.S. government to offer insurance coverage for the roughly half of all mortgage-backed securities that it does not already insure. The Treasury Department would charge premiums to holders of the securities, under the plan.

It also called for temporary tax cuts and regulatory relief for businesses. In addition, financial institutions participating in the proposed program would have to disclose more about their mortgage asset holdings.
..
Speaking after a meeting of House Democrats where lawmakers were briefed on the White House meeting, California Democratic Rep. Henry Waxman said McCain appeared to have embraced the proposal from Cantor, Hensarling and Wisconsin Rep. Paul Ryan.

"It seems like (McCain) embraced Jeb Hensarling's position ... It's a completely different approach," Waxman said. "It's hard to imagine where we go from here."...

TAX CUTS ???

REGULATORY RELIEF ???

WHAT PLANET ARE THESE PEOPLE FROM ???

CoIntelPro for Pronktastic Victory Over SCLM, DIEBOLD, ESS and SEQUOIA! @ 31:

jane from hell @ 26:

Cointel, I'm as broke as I can be. Let 'em try and scare me.

I know what you mean, quite personally.

Mark me down as Not Scared #3. They can't come take any of my shit, I have NO DEBT. ;)

jane from hell @ 81:

JC @67, why shouldn't we cap the CEO salaries/bonuses? If that is a deterrent to their company accepting any federal aid ALL THE BETTER.

If they can't live on a two or three hundred thousand a year - like the highest paid government employees - then let them GET A REAL JOB.

In all fairness, Chris-not-the-troll, credit card debt is unsecured. Go ahead, take my credit rating! Waaah, I can't buy another house! Or a car! (newsflash...)

.

Question:

Do you suppose the $700,000,000,000.00 was meant to float WaMu?

.

@100: I think I just read enough right there.

PorridgeGun @ 83:

Another comment saying the same thing:

It's all coming together.

Tonight was the largest bank failure in American history. Washington Mutual just collapsed. The FDIC seized it. Now the bailout is history and dead.

The GOP is playing the craziest game of chicken since the Cuban Missile Crisis. They are playing to win. They are counting on their plan getting out there with the LIE that "Our plan makes Wall Street pay for it. The Bush-Obama plan makes YOU pay for it." They are heroically fighting the "liberal bailout plan".

McSame will be on board. Expect a morning blitz tomorrow before the markets open where the GOP says that only their plan can save America as the Dow faces a loss of 500+ points again.

The Dems will be stuck saying that their plan to make taxpayers to pay for Wall Street's bailout is better than the GOP's plan to LIE about making taxpayers pay for Wall Street's bailout. They'll lose that battle.

Then they'll fold right about the time the Dow is minus 700 points for the day tomorrow.

We've all been had. John McSame will swoop in with the magic GOP "make Wall Street pay for the mess plan". Just like "We'll be greeted as liberators." Just like "Saddam's smoking gun may be a mushroom cloud." Just like all the other LIES.

Tomorrow America is about to get MAVERICKED

Hope you're wrong.

I hope the sun rises in about 6.5 hrs here on the east coast too.

bullfrog @ 84:

silentpatriot,

this "bailout" is a total scam. please WAKE UP.

THE FIX IS IN.

PRAY for our F.B.I.!!

we are gonna have to do more than PRAY for them...we might have to sacrifice a thousand goats and several virgins...

The FBI is a joke, two words...anthrax investigation.

jane from hell @ 81:

JC @67, why shouldn't we cap the CEO salaries/bonuses? If that is a deterrent to their company accepting any federal aid ALL THE BETTER.

I'm not saying it shouldn't be done, but it's a completely symbolic gesture in the grand scheme of this bailout. None of us have seen what this agreement is on this bill, so I don't know all of the particulars, but when I hear Dems talking about executive salaries, I get very nervous that they're going to pass this enormous, odious giveaway as long as they get to set a salary cap on the CEO and look like they're really doing something about these big fat cats on Wall Street. Never mind that they're about the sell us all out in order to keep these same companies in business, with no guarantee that any of this will work. Talk about taking your eye off the ball. Is that all we're going to get out of this by way of a comprise? How do these guys keep getting played like this? Or is it that the Republican and Democratic parties have basically merged on economic policy and are really only duking it out over social and military issues anymore?

This bailout is incredibly unpopular. McCain just may score big by opposing it. Obama just needs to make sure he votes with McCain EITHER WAY. Unprincipled, you say? How would they argue that? McCain can't accuse anyone of playing politics who votes WITH him. Things are going to crash, anyway. Let them play chicken. Just make the repubs go with the dems no matter which way they go. Don't do "what you have to" and let the republicans (who made the bad medicine necessary!) get off with no blame.

Larry Rafferty @ 10:

Obama and the Dems need to make sure the public is well informed as to who is ruining this deal. If they don't want it, then Obama needs to name them by name and put the blame where it belongs. No hesitations.

That's what I'm worried about. Also, the stupidity of low information voters.

And of course, the MSM, personafied by Wolf Blitzer

chris [not the troll] @ 93:

Mark me down as Not Scared #3. They can't come take any of my shit, I have NO DEBT. ;)

you are a taxpaying American citizen?...you owe trillions of dollars.

There is a (forced) labor program in place waiting for you/me...

Chris Yoder @ 110:

to MCMetal

so after less than a year in office its all bush's fault. no mention that while clinton was in office there were how many terrorist attacks. let me list them for you:

1. the world trade center bombings
2. the barrack bombings in saudi arabia
3. the embassy bombings
4. the uss cole

at what point did he wake up and say maybe we should do something about this. never. all bush's fault. right.

ps. that is not defending bush that is taking an objective look at history.

I notice you conveniently added the 1st WTC bombing , which occurred exactly ONE MONTH into Clinton's 1st term , while the USS Cole attack happened 3 months from the end of his 2nd term.

PS

Most of the perpretrators of the WTC bombing were captured and jailed ; where's Osama ?

I do not really care about this. I mean when I think about it, about neoliberalism and globalism and deregulation...I just don't care. I don't care who gets hurt. Because people are already getting hurt, and have been getting hurt, from this ever since the first maquiladora opened it's doors south of the border.

Listening to the Democrats compromise with Paulson, sure making or a better agreement, one with more 'accountability' (WTF!?!) but one that does not address the key problems of capitalism and repulsive extravagance, makes me even more jaded than I know I should be. I feel like an apparition of Ralph Nader screaming naked into a dark bottomless pit in the middle of a hurricane.

All that considered, every once in awhile, when I think about this unfolding disaster, I just feel nauseous...like I want to puke, but nothing comes up. It's the dry heaves of a September in LA.

I'm currently teaching Macbeth to my preoccupied (but isn't everyone these days) 8th graders:

I think our country sinks beneath the yoke;
It weeps, it bleeds, and each new day a gash
Is added to the wounds. (4.3.39-41)

I wonder what to teach the kids tomorrow. I wonder when the tyrant will be beheaded.

MountainMan23 @ 95:

jane from hell @ 81:

JC @67, why shouldn't we cap the CEO salaries/bonuses? If that is a deterrent to their company accepting any federal aid ALL THE BETTER.

If they can't live on a two or three hundred thousand a year - like the highest paid government employees - then let them GET A REAL JOB.

Yeah, we'll show them... by pouring $700B into their businesses. I can't believe how many people fall for this crap. Yeah, I hate the idea of these people walking away from failures with huge sums of money. But it's not MY money!!! The $700B IS my money. This is how the Repugs get away with this shit. They distract people with these emotional side issues that have little to do with the big picture, and then when they give on the minutiae while keeping everything else intact, it's seen as a compromise bill. Republicans don't give a shit about CEO pay. They give a shit about their investments in huge corporations and the campaign money and favors they get from them. They're about to get all of us involved in a swindle of epic proportions. But hey, we're going to beat them on this CEO pay thing. We'll show them good!

I guess what I'm saying, JC, is that at the time the idea of salary caps was first floated, they were making it seem like this bailout was a done deal. And looking at Congress' record, it would have been in past instances (Patriot act etc). But now that it's been brought up, I have no objection to keeping it as a provision. Dems aren't scoring points with ANY aspect of this so far.

But I think on the larger point we agree: Why bail, and what's the rush?

Chris Yoder @ 90:

to the commenter that said there would be a thousand point drop in the stock market tomorrow. it can't happen. there are failsafes that limit the amount of a sell off. i can't tell you the exact number but it is above 500 and the stock market shuts down. i hope it doesn't happen cuz the next day it is goin to happen again but around the world. And there is a lot of ripping of mccain but lets look at the obama/biden ticket the one where the vp contradicts wat obama says

Possibly so. Biden and Obama may have different takes on this but neither McCain nor Palin is qualified to say anything on this matter. Where ignorance is bliss look for a Republican..

bullfrog @ 111:

BULL$#!+.

they are stifled at every turn by chertoff, cheney and that stooge with the kenny rogers.

the F.B.I. is the least politicized institution left in america.

there are thousands of nuts and bolts law & order guys in their ranks just as PISSED OFF as you and i.

Fair enough, I know there are a lot of good cops out there, but you gotta admit FBI director Robert S. Mueller, was the Chimpsters 1st choice for nominee!

http://www.fbi.gov/libref/directors/directmain.htm

jane from hell @ 90:

What, Porridge, you don't think they have something even more hideous to attempt next month?

For now, I'm betting on this. If this doesn't work, they'll go with a false flag operation.

And of course, another fake Bin Laden tape.

Peter G @ 122:

MCMetal @ 113:

Chris Yoder @ 110:

to MCMetal

so after less than a year in office its all bush's fault. no mention that while clinton was in office there were how many terrorist attacks. let me list them for you:

1. the world trade center bombings
2. the barrack bombings in saudi arabia
3. the embassy bombings
4. the uss cole

at what point did he wake up and say maybe we should do something about this. never. all bush's fault. right.

ps. that is not defending bush that is taking an objective look at history.

I notice you conveniently added the 1st WTC bombing , which occurred exactly ONE MONTH into Clinton's 1st term , while the USS Cole attack happened 3 months from the end of his 2nd term.

PS

Most of the perpretrators of the WTC bombing were captured and jailed ; where's Osama ?

He also forgot to mention that the Clinton administration were hot after Bin Laden and warned Bush about it. A warning Bush chose to ignore as chummy as his family is with the Bin Laden family.

And don't forget that when Chimpy and Crumbsfeld had OBL trapped in the Tora Bora area they left one side completely unguarded so he could flee to Pakistan and regroup. You can't go killing the son of your long time business partner. I mean, really, that's just bad form.

jane from hell @ 95:

In all fairness, Chris-not-the-troll, credit card debt is unsecured. Go ahead, take my credit rating! Waaah, I can't buy another house! Or a car! (newsflash...)

I know not everyone has the freedom I do - single, no kids, own my home/car outright... but the U.S. and most of the modern world is built on a foundation of debt, and that may turn out to be the end of us all. Time will tell.

Debt is a soul-destroying cancer.

Zimbel @ 128:

Well, even McCain has to do something right (kill this deal) every once in a while.

480 elected monkeys w/ typewriters...

MCMetal @ 102:

Chris Yoder @ 100:

To MCMetal

Is that all you read. Because i am pretty sure i didnt put bush on a pedastal and kissed his feet. the only successful thing he has done is not allowed another terrorist attack on american soil by shift the focus of the terrorist to iraq. other than that i dont think he is a good president. so before you judge me take time to read what i say. you might be in for a surprise

Ummmm , no ; did you conveniently "forget" the Anthrax attacks ?

BTW You're attempting to falsely sing Chimpy's praises in not allowing another attack on USA soil ?

Do you hold him responsible for allowing the single worst attack on US soil ?

I don't see that happening ................

Consider the damage done to this country by 'Chimpy' ,a city drowns while Shrub and McSelf were 'literally' posing with a cake..grinning away..we torture,spy on innocent citizens,wreck our economy and our 'standing' in the world,..the list is too long ,and constantly added to, (and this is only what little we know)...but consider the following quote and tell me who the 'terrorists' really have preferred... Osama bin Laden’s November 2004 straight-to-video release where he discussed Al Qaeda’s stratey against the United States, saying it was “easy for [Al Qaeda] to provoke and bait this administration“:All that we have to do is to send two Mujahedin to the farthest point East to raise a piece of cloth on which is written al-Qa’ida in order to make the generals race there to cause America to suffer human economic and political losses without their achieving for it anything of note other than some benefits to their private companies. […]

So we are continuing this policy in bleeding America to the point of bankruptcy. […]

And even more dangerous and bitter for America is that the Mujahedin recently forced Bush to resort to emergency funds to continue the fight in Afghanistan and Iraq which is evidence of the success of the bleed-until-bankruptcy plan with Allah’s permission… And it all shows that the real loser is… you. It’s the American people and their economy.

No Bailout. No Bailout. No Bailout.

The only way this problem will be solved is by letting the system collapse in on itself and get back to a real market valuation.

I feel sorry for those recently retired or those about to - you will take the brunt of this.

If I have to choose between them and the future of my children the answer is easy.

NO F-ing BAILOUT

The greedy broke it, let them cash in their goodies to fix it. Say NO to the bailout.

Yeah but he is black

C.A. Watts, Arkansas @ 136:

There are approximately 100 million houses in the U.S. with an average cost of 264 thousand. That comes to a total of 264 billion dollars. If the problem with the economy is because of the housing collapse why doesn't the government save taxpayers 436 billions dollars by buying every house in the U.S.? But it's not about the housing collapse, sub-prime loans, or foreclosures is it? No it's about the con artist on Wall Street who bundled these mortgages, sold them to pension funds, foreign governments, and to their fellow Wall Street criminals who then leveraged them as much as $60 to $1. Here's how leveraging I have one dollar in collateral and the bank loans me $60.00 dollars based on my one dollar collateral. Heck of a deal if you can find anyone stupid enough to buy it. That stupid someone they're hoping to find is the U.S. Congress and the American people. This bailout is nothing more than a protection racket: you give me $700 billion or I'll blow up your economy. The only way to deal with these criminals is to prosecute them and take away every penny of illicit gains they have made during the past six years.

Please, before going on a rant double check your math. 1.0E8 * 2.64E5 comes to 2.64E13 or about 26.4 TRILLION dollars. You dropped two decimal places. Scientific notation rules. The rant about the over-leveraged Wall Street crooks is still good. Gives one a different sense of perspective on this though. If the US homes are worth north of 25 trillion why would Wall Street be on the verge of collapse over roughly 3% of that. Remember the GNP is 10 trillion, the total value of the farms and buisnesses is probably some where around there. Seriously this amount is peanuts to the real worth of the country and if these crooks don't get it by tomorrow we're all being eating our shoes by winter? Probably more proof that we're being played for saps (like we needed more proof).

What ontheleftcoast said!

700 Billion is a lot of money to borrow in terms of debt. The Chinese are not exactly enamored with the prospect of loaning us that much money without some sort of collateral. Neither is the Middle East going to help us out with unsecured debt without some sort of benefit to them. If we just print money without getting the loan, the price of oil and other commodities on the world market will sky rocket in response to make up for the devaluation of the US dollar.

If we do bail out these banks, what is the American people's return on investment? I bet it is not 29.99% APR. The question to ask is, if the American people are going to go into more debt to rescue businesses that the "free market" is about to cull, what benefit will the American people get besides keeping the economy going a little bit longer until the debt needs to be repaid?

If we do this bailout, what happens when the bad credit card debt starts getting defaulted on in about a year thanks to deregulation and usury interest rates? A lot more institutions are going to be sucking wind and we definitely won't have the credit rating to bail the out!

Dems better look out cause it's starting to look like they've gotten Punk'd. The Repugs are now in a position to portray themselves as the party sticking up for the people against Wall St. and Bush while they charge the Dems with wanting to waste billions of taxpayer dollars on bailing out corporate America. McClueless has been able to grab the headlines with his little non-suspended campaign stunt. Now he will come out opposed to the plan and act like he's the man of the people standing up to the wasteful establishment. He's suddenly shifted his position from one of inconsequential buffoon to the guy everyone is watching and waiting on, stealing Obama's thunder. Obama better counter this fast with some forceful action.

The choice is clear. Absolutely clear:

You put forward a bill that addresses the money on Democrats' terms and conditions.

Full stop.

If that bill is vetoed, let the president take the fall.

Full stop.

Or better yet, make it veto-proof. That's what they did with Clinton when he had to sign the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act that created this mess.

At least then, they'll know they're doing the right thing.

Full stop.

I'm tired of the Democrats playing the Republicans' game. They need to do what's right and right now.