House Vote on the Bail Out: Open Thread: Fails
Wow, it's going down to the wire with many NO votes...207-226 right now.
The Market is tanking badly too...And Newt Gingrich issues a statement that I heard on MSNBC which says he would reluctantly vote for it...Hmmm....
UPDATE: It failed....No one trusts Bush and McCain did nothing....
This mess shows that Conservatism is a failure. I know we are dismayed by our politicians, but don't forget that under conservative leadership, we've had the total collapse of our financial sector and we can never stop saying that.
And if the media tries to portray Republicans as hero figures I'll start my own drinking game.
Crying Boehner is saying it's Pelosi's fault because she gave a partisan speech. What jokers. A speech made them vote against it. They are saying it is not a partisan crisis, but an economic one. Sure---that was caused by Republican/McCain hunger for deregulation.
Will McCain suspend his campaign again and try to cancel Palin's debate?
The problem with any of this is that any prediction of disaster becomes a self-fulfilling prophesy, abetted by pissed-off elites forced to take a small bath for their greed....
Looks like 226 Nay and 207 Yea and 1 NV
Maybe some of them read this before voting?
http://www.rgemonitor.com/roubini-monitor/253783/is_purchasing_700_billi...
Heh.
If Pelosi has ANY brains...she'll close the vote. The longer it stays open...the dumber she looks.
Sorry folks, but this is how you play hardball politics.
You close the vote, and issue s DEMOCRATIC statement that says that the GOP objected to ANY oversight, that the White House objected to ANY oversight.
THAT is how you play this game.
Listen to Ron Paul:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YBVB1Uc0nko
This was NEVER going to pass.
Is Paulson going to call up Bernanke and get the $600+ billion in liquidity that he just dumped on the market back?
It NEEDS to tank badly so that it makes a solid impression that this CANT EVER HAPPEN AGAIN.
Vote NO FOLKS. NO TO THE BAIL OUT.
Who'da thought we'd be looking to the Republicans to do the right thing??
America is in bizarro land folks!
Looks like it is dead in the water.
HOLY CRAP! The Dow dropped to as low as 700 points. Drain-O anyone?
YAY!!
Alert
Come listen to this interview of Obama’s with Bob Schieffer of Face the Nation yesterday
Damn I knew I heard Obama say “Iran is developing nuclear weapons” during his appearance on Face the Nation on Sunday. He did not say they might, could, want to develop nuclear weapons Obama said “Iran is developing nuclear weapons” WTF
Why did Bob Schaeffer allow him to get away with repeating this unsubstantiated claim? We have heard Lieberman, McCain, Ledeen, Cheney, Bush, Rice, Reuel Marc Gerecht, Woolsey, Kristol, and other right wing radicals say this but this is the very first time I have heard Obama say this. What’s up with Obama repeating this?
Why is Obama ignoring the last NIE on Iran? Why is Obama ignoring what Iaea’s El Baradei has said about Iran? Why did Obama’s inaccurate and inflammatory claim about Iran pass by listeners and Bob Schieffer?
Listen to this interview with Obama? He said “Iran IS developing nuclear weapons” Obama needs to be called out on this.
http://www.cbsnews.com/sections/ftn/main3460.shtm
——————————————————————————
I mean it was enough to listen to Senator McCain during the debat repeat 4 times the endlessly repeated and inaccurately interpreted statement that Iranian President Ahmedinejad allegedly said that “Israel should be wiped off the map”. Which Professor Juan Cole has confirmed was a complete misrepresentation (lie) of what the Iranian President said Zionism “will vanish from the pages of time” JIM LEHRER DID NOT CALL MCCAIN OUT ON THIS JUST LET HIM KEEP REPEATING THIS.
But now we have Bob Schieffer allow Obama to lie and say “Iran is developing nuclear weapons”
Obama needs to be called out on this statement. He needs to be called out fast on this, let him know folks have taken note of this very inflammatory statement about Iran
Pelosi calls it a 'buy-in'.
A buy in is an amount put up as you take your seat at the poker table. You are gambling. You are, more than likely, going to lose.
Now, since we're already in the hole with a tanking economy, we're on our second 'buy-in'. We've lost, and we're rationalizing that by putting up the house, the car, and our children's college fund, we're going to come out big winners.
But go ahead. Vote for your buy-in, you corrupt Republican shill.
Just don't complain when you're stuck hoping the Turn card will complete your inside straight.
BUSH shoots and FAILS once more ....lying on the floor looking like the fool he is.......Run that bastard out of our White House ....... Traitors who torture should not occupy our White House. He's a fucking con man.
What a total clusterfuck.
The Chimp is going down in history.
What a disaster.
If we don't support the bailout, then the market will crash. Then the government would have to develop some kind of New Deal, which would mean (ugh!) investing in infrastructure and (shudder!) giving jobs to working class people instead of free money to your friends. That would be tragic.
Is the deal dead or what?
Ah..the Republican Party has finally found a tasty new fear issue to run on.
Some Republican Congressmen have decided to exploit this moment in time to save their political hides in their districts for the upcoming election. The bill is "un-American", as Newty told them their nay vote could be spun.
And so that's exactly what they're doing.
i need a bail out, my home note is high. thanks katrina
MSNBC saying the gavel has not dropped yet, 1 vote has changed, strongarmming going on to try to get others to change their vote.
Liberal AND Proud @ 4:
That would serve the Dems well, therefor that option is not in Pelosi's playbook
P.D. @ 9:
And away goes value down the drain.
It's all Clinton's fault!!
And those marrying gays!!!
IT'S ANOTHER KATRINA!
Jim@15, Yeah, giving help to the common folk is so lame. They rank us as community leaders and such. To them, we are meaningless.
I agree it's been somewhat horrible to have to hear the house republicans being the voice of sanity this time around but remember the reason they are against the bailout is not the same reason most of us are against the bailout. From what I understand (and damn this is alot to get my head around but I blame that on the fact that they spent so long saying 'the fundamentals of our economy are strong' while it was silently tanking that now one has to peel away many layers of effd upness to get to the actual root cause of this) house republicans worry that if the fed gov't starts buying up businesses that they will then have to compete with the federal gov't and it may limit how many millions of dollars they can horde away through their private businesses. So while I'm for telling them to shove this handout for companies that played wrong to begin with, it's not for the same reasons the republicans feel the same.
It's Me @ 17:
Really! Geeez...I wonder where I heard that before??
They are holding the vote open while hoping to change some minds and some votes. At one time the DOW was down a tad over seven hundred votes. I feel like we are all inside a cyclone swirling around and wondering what what will happen next.
pissed@26, Hopefully we will all go to Oz. Where the Repugs can finally get a brain.
Kathleen @ 11:
The SCUM, of which Schieffer is a prime example, are not ALLOWED to "call out" the designated winners on their lies or misrepresentations. If it's gonna happen, it has to come from an "opponent" or surrogate. Since both "parties" agree on this (as on SOOOOO much else), nobody's gonna 'call' anyybody 'out.'
Nagahapun
Didn't some of the provisions penalize CEO's in terms of the golden parachutes?
I can think of no other candidate with as much experience with crashes, as John McCain.
Oh yuck, I feel so Republican today. Never felt that before.
Liberal AND Proud @ 21:
......and don't forget those secular humanists.
Only the Dems would manage to be outmaneuvered by the GOP during the biggest fuckup by the right in the past 60 years.
Way to go!
pissed off patricia @ 26:
Auntie Em Auntie Em! It's a twister! It's a twister!
Let it burn. The ponzi scheme was a failure.
Peter G @ 260:
I much prefer the sword Caledfwlch, though Geoffrey of Monmouth called it Caliburn (sounds like what happens after lying on Venice Beach too long in the summer). Later it became known as Excalibur.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJVclw-rh5U
Liberal AND Proud @ 14:
For the Neocons everything is going as planned. Bush with his speech this morning made out they want to pass the Bill. In reality it puts them that much closer to declaring a National Emergency then Bush and the Neocons will take over. Then back to Paulson`s Plan A with no oversight.
Tyler Durden @ 341:
Ron Paul had sense enough to vote against this bill, (of course he votes against almost everything) and he's against the war (both wars) so that makes him better than most democrats as far as I am concerned. Nancy Pelosi should just resign. I remember a few months back there were people arguing here that she was a progressive!
Liberal AND Proud @ 355:
Hopefully he won't. This man has made a mockery of not only his office, but all the institutions of the United States of America. Any more words would only prove how much this man lacks empathy or insight into the gravity of what is happening right now.
woody, tokin librul @ 358:
Oh...pisawww...I know dragons are imaginary...the leprechauns told me. Then they sold me a mortgage backed security.
rduke @ 333:
I'll go for a rump roast!
The Very Bitter Ceci Hussein @ 362:
Gravity is the only law that George W. Bush has ever obeyed.
Our government and big business are nothing more than a legalized mafia with control of the media and our pockets. Organized crime or criminal organizations are groups or operations run by criminals, most commonly for the purpose of generating a monetary profit.
Some criminal organizations, such as terrorist organizations, are politically motivated. Gangs sometimes become "disciplined" enough to be considered "organized". An organized gang or criminal set can also be referred to as a mob. The act of engaging in criminal activity as a structured group is referred to in the United States as racketeering. .In order for a criminal organization to prosper, some degree of support is required from the society in which it lives. Thus, it is often necessary to corrupt some of its respected members, most commonly achieved through bribery, blackmail, and the establishment of symbiotic relationships with legitimate businesses. Judicial and police officers and legislators are especially targeted for control by organized crime via bribes.
Typical activities
Organized crime often victimize businesses through the use of extortion or theft and fraud activities like hijacking cargo trucks, robbing goods, committing bankruptcy fraud (also known as "bust-out"), insurance fraud or stock fraud (inside trading). Organized crime groups also victimize individuals by car theft (either for dismantling at "Chop shops" or for export), burglary, credit card fraud, and stock fraud ("pump and dump" scam). Some organized crime groups defraud national, state, or local governments by bid-rigging public projects, counterfeiting money, smuggling or manufacturing untaxed alcohol (bootlegging) or cigarettes (buttlegging), and providing immigrant workers to avoid taxes. Organized crime groups seek out corrupt public officials in executive, law enforcement, and judicial roles so that their activities can avoid, or at least receive early warnings about, investigation and prosecution.[1][2]
Organized crime groups also provide a range of illegal services and goods, such as loansharking of money at very high interest rates, bookmaking and gambling, prostitution, drug trafficking, gunrunning, providing murder for hire, illegal dumping of toxic waste, people smuggling and trafficking in human beings . Organized crime groups also do a range of business and labor racketeering activities, such as casino skimming, Insider trading, setting up monopolies in industries such as garbage collecting, construction and cement pouring, bid rigging, getting "no-show" and "no-work" jobs, using non-union labor and pocketing the wage difference, money laundering, political corruption, and bullying.
Lacking much of the paperwork that is common to legitimate organizations, criminal organizations can usually evolve and reorganize much more quickly when the need arises. They are quick to capitalize on newly-opened markets, and quick to rebuild themselves under another guise when caught by authorities.
. 1. ^ "In the real world of limited resources, we know that we can only detect, investigate and prosecute a small percentage of those officials who are corrupt." -- U.S. Attorney General John D. Ashcroft". Retrieved on April 18, 2008.
2. ^ "I remain convinced that there is no more important area in the fight against corruption than the challenge for us within the law enforcement and justice sectors to keep our own houses clean. -- U.S. Attorney General John D. Ashcroft". Retrieved on April 18, 2008.
Wasn't the Excalibur based on a Corvette chassis?
Steve E @ 360:
I don't want to put my tinfoil hat on, but good God. Things are happening that defy a simple explanation.
Tyler Durden @ 351:
Are you joking? This country's economic models are based off of John Meynard Keynes more than anyone else. Where printing money is our saviour. Just the Federal Reserve being around tells you right away which economic model we are following. I have no idea how anyone can equate that with free-markets
Yes @ 348:
You do realize that trying to implement the "free market capitalism" ruse is what has led us down the pipes, right?
Libertarians like Paul have been correct about some issues but for the wrong reasons, it is like claiming that a stopped clock is a more efficient form of telling time because it was right twice today. And there is where it lies the danger of their folly.
Next Question:
How serious an economic melt-down does it take to impose martial law?
If we started running on the banks, that would do it, I reckon...
If the Pukes can inspire a big enough panic, it's a done deal...
Liberal AND Proud @ 355:
FIFY
I knew they were going to pull this when that sneaky midget, Roy Blunt, was hiding at the press conference yesterday. Maybe he'll vote yes if the right people leave a wheel barrel full of cash at his office door.
The Republicans are, as usual, making this all about partisanship and drama. No one wants to hand over all this money to Wall Street thieves, but no one wants to see the world's economy go down in flames.
What they are forgetting, though, is that no one will remember that they claimed to be standing on some priniple when it all tanks. All they will remember is that the House Republicans voted no.....and then it tanked....and then they lost their savings....and their homes....and their retirement......and their way of life.
Assholes, one and all. And by the way, where was the head asshole, McCain, today? I thought he was going to be fixing this entire thing, what with his vast knowledge of economics and all.
Liberal AND Proud @ 365:
Come on. You're giving the guy too much credit here. ;)
Yes @ 348:
This meltdown is Global and on the International Financial Markets where the Hedge Funds like Bear Stearns and the other large investment banks did their securitization there was absolutely NO REGULATION... NO GOVERNMENT INTERVENTION... It was not just a "Free Market"... it was a "Free For All Market"
Your "Free Market" laissez-faire economic philosophy just fell on its face for the whole damn world to see... so sell it else where.
It is an economic theory for small children who believe in "Free Market a fairyland" that has never existed, cloistered academics who don't live in the real world, and ideologically driven Libertarians who don't like facts.
BaScOmBe hearts Rachel Maddow hates MSM @ 323:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5oGcfwKN5jY
Billy @ 353:
Ohh nice...
John McCain can't lead the country.
John McCain can't even lead his house Republicans.
EPIC FAIL
Lets start raiding the record halls!
This is an event much greater then the fall of the Berlin wall...
This is a monster wave... and we are just getting to the base of it... You had better be paddling for a while!
StirFry @ 377:
That should be made into an ad. It should be aired repeatedly. As I mentioned before, this is only political theater in which the American people continue to suffer without respite.
rduke @ 376:
well, except that Swift proposed the (irish) poor eat their own children, since they kept producing them so profligately...
ask governor palin what we should do? i'm sure that would be an interesting
response.
Matt in Texas @ 352:
CNN's Jack Cafferry says "from the out-house to the White-House, vote out ANY politican who has been in office over 2 terms (regardless of party). Demand 2 term limits in any office taking away the lobbist and the Christian Rights influence"
Given what the Congress has come up with when there's been bipartisan support - this failing is a good sign in my opinion.
lol in what way have we been trying to implement free market capitalism? If they wanted to do that- all they needed to do was get the government's hand out of people's lives- but our government and the federal reserve has been more involved in the markets than ever before. Just look at the amount of money congress has been spending for decades- how can that possibly be equated with trying to implement free-markets? So the Fed manipulating the interest rates like they've done for years which caused both the tech bubble and housing bubble a way to implement free markets? So destroying wealth by having wars overseas is implementing free markets? There are more barriers to entry into business than ever before- making it expensive for anyone but the very rich to even start a business without going into large debt- this is a way to implement free markets? Sarbanes-Oxley testing(I'm an accountant and i know damn well that Sarbanes-Oxley does nothing but increase the cost of doing business) is a way to implement free-markets? The federal reserve creating money out of nowhere or borrowing billions to pay for both foreign and domestic spending is somehow implementing free markets??? Subsidizing the auto industry and the farming industry is implementing the free markets? Deregulation that isn't "true deregulation" but rather giving free-rides to congressmen's corporate friends with barriers to entry to everyone else is somehow implementing the free markets? The War on drugs is a way to implement the free-market? Enough with that nonsense- I'm sick of hearing that its the free-markets fault when the government is involved in nearly EVERY SINGLE THING ANYONE DOES.
Yes @ 368:
Excuse me, Maynard Keynes theory was not based on printing money.
It was based on deficit spending in times of economic slowdown. Essentially, by investing public funds (borrowed funds) into internal infrastructure projects (public works, national highway system, dams) and putting people to work, that people would then be paid with those dollars, this would create demand on the part of workers who would then spend those dollars on goods and services, generate tax revenues and grow the economy. ANd the factss are it worked. It is a DEMAND based Economic Theory.
Supply side economics is supply side based. Cutting taxes will put money into the hands of people, generating demand and growth. However, the problems were revealed to be 1) infrastructure expansion and technology improvements were supposed to appear out of thin air based on these tax cuts, and they simply did not 2) by not applying the cuts across the board in terms of wage levels, it has been proven that uppper income types simply reinvested and sheltered the additional dollars they received rather than spend them, 3) you needed spending cuts to offset the tax reductions otherwise you would wind up with huge deficits that could not be covered by any increase in demand based economic activity.
I won't debate the politics, the above are facts.
As far as libertarianism...it is not an economic theory, it is a philosophical view of the world, the same as conservatism or liberalism.
378 rduke Says: Lets start raiding the record halls!
I'll take Tower Records.
The Very Bitter Ceci Hussein @ 362:
CNN gave him about 15 seconds before cutting away. He truly has become irrelevant.
Yes @ 368:
Just like you run of the mill libertarian: Are you guys really that one trick pony? Still going on and on and on about the federal reserve and gold standard, without understanding that inflation is not tied about how you measure wealth (be it in precious metals or fiat money) but the fact that capital-based systems by definition depend upon credit to create wealth, and thus they are unsutainable? Never stop to realized the previous credit crises (which have been many among human history) happened in systems without a federal reserve and using a precious-metal standard.
Our country is a patient with clogged arteries due to years of ingestion of red meat, and Libertarians are screaming because the problem is that we ate white cows with black spots, when they know... we should be eating black cows with white spots. That's the ticket!
Vienna school refugees who moved to Chicago have been trying for the past 60 years to undo the New Deal. And by god they are going to burry all of us with their effort.
Oh, and how is that refutal of Marx's book coming, they started it over a century ago, and they still haven't been able to provide their counterpoint to "Das Kapital" which is supposed to come out any day now....
rduke @ 378:
Gnarly! A monster wave! I'm gonna quit work and grab my board, dude. Where'd I put that wax?
DeBartolo @ 382:
What that would do would be to erase the institutional memory of the whole Congress, and leave it in the hands of the unelected: lobbyists, staffers, bureaucrats, etc...
Not a great idea...
The bald headed, financial guru, dipshit on CNN is going to blow a fuse if Congress won`t make a deal. It is almost comical if it was not so pathetic. The sky is falling.
Liberal AND Proud @ 234:
she cares more about her makeup than her country.
woody, tokin librul @ 380:
Well,
Swift was actually said that the IRISH did eat their own children, and was proposing that they should start being allowed to sell the extra meat, as they were not allowed to make money any other way.
Rasputin @ 374:
But how did all that come about? Who gave the implicit guarantees for all mortgages in this country- Fannie and Freddie. Who injected billions into the markets to central bankers AROUND THE WORLD that made this possible? Who manipulated the interest rates? No it is the failure of CENTRAL BANKING, MANAGED ECONOMY, and CENTRAL PLANNING which is a complete failure for the whole world to see. This dance has played out for years upon years- whenever central planning fails- its of course the fault of random individuals that we do not know and we never will see- and our saviours in congress will be there to save us.
I hear they will try again on Wednesday
Anyone listening to C-SPAN? Interesting calls.
Fascinating times. Wow.
On CNBC they suggested public lynchings of the CEOs to blame.
MSNBC just said it Failed.
Capitalism is done, the attempt to mummify it & raise it as a zombie didn't work
It's Socialism or Fascism now
pissed off patricia @ 31:
If you feel the sudden urge to give tax cuts to the rich, seek help!
Matt in Texas @ 32:
Oh, come on... every body knows this mess is Gods way of punishing us for our lack of commitment to wipe islamofascism off the face of the earth. The fact that we haven't sacrificed a babykiller abortion-clinic doctor in a while doesn't help any in getting God happy.
Fascist States of America @ 38:
pissed off patricia @ 31:
First good suggestion I've heard all day.
Did CitiBank's acquisition of Wachovia depend on the outcome of this vote? Anyone know?
Aww, Those poor bankers and investors. Do you think they will like standing in soup lines? I bet they are crying into their Lattes.
euthyfro @ 39:
It's been fascism for a while, where have you been?
Liberal AND Proud @ 14:
Speaking of Clusterfucks, check out Jim Kunstler's "Clusterfuck Nation Chronicle" for today at Kunstler.com
This is what you get when people look for political solutions to economic problems.
I'm sitting on a pile of cash waiting for the trap door to close, and then I will emerge the ruler of you all. Where have you heard THAT before?
Yes @ 356:
There is no excessive taxation. The US is widely admired for low tax rates, especially if you are wealthy. Corporate taxes are on the books at 35% but due to loopholes many corporations pay NOTHING.
The government can and does create wealth with tax policy. The only question is who benefits. Before Reagan, we had a thriving middle class. Reagan's Tax Reform Act of 1986 lowered the top tax rate on from 50% to 28% and doubled the tax rate on the middle class. The direct result of this is a nation of robber barons and indentured servants - the middle class is nearing extinction. The so-called Fair Tax - the darling of conservatives - is just another step further down that road.
Reagan is held up as one of the greatest presidents in US history when in fact he was one of the worst. His policies and the tenets of Reaganism are directly responsible for the current state of affairs.
fastfeat @ 387:
Well, he'll have plenty of smoke, coke and booze. He's one of the few that can still afford it.
Liberal AND Proud @ 385:
Fact: There was absolutely No Regualtion and No Governement Intervention in the International Financial Markets where this disaster is happening.
Sell your crap else where...
woody, tokin librul @ 390:
The Palin types, right.
john mccain may pay for this. the dems may have played this better than some think....BUSH/paulson/........2/3 dems approved the bailout...republicans
are playing politics....i don't think blaming pelosi is proper. the representatives
represent the people....if these people were persuaded by pelosi speaking
that's crap.
the republicans were trying to boost mccain on the economy front.
Tyler Durden @ 327:
You people assume that the criminals who did this are Conservatives or free market promoters. They are not. they are fascist.
Ron Paul has been 100% correct in regards to the Fed, Income Tax and the I.R.S. You will eat your words because food will be scarce shortly.
You can laugh all the way to the poor house.. Wake up and smell the propaganda!
My only regret is that reagan isn't alive to answer for his stupidity. It's actually a testament to the American worker and economy that it lasted as long it did. Then again, if I'd had my way , he would have been hung for treason about 20 yrs ago, so I guess either way he wouldn't be here.
Average Guy @ 400:
Agreed, and that's one of the reasons reagan/bush/bush should have walked to the gallows.
Dow closes down 585.
Rasputin @ 397:
What crap. Teaching you something? First of all, as far as the overseas financial markets...they are collapsing because OUR infrastructure is collapsing. Our debt is basically WORTHLESS. Our CURRENCY is basically worthless, and that is due to the fact that because of GOP blind allegiance to deregulation, which led to uncontrolled, unregulated lending, coupled with an out of control Federal Reserve with little to NO oversight, drove down interest rates to unsustainable levels.
The problem in the foreign markets are OUR fault. They are holding OUR paper. Also, the foreign markets ARE regulated, but I wouldn't expect a backwoodsman like you to know that. If you like, I'll rattle off the regulatory agencies. Some are better than others. The British markets and economy got trashed first, because they followed OUR model, the GOP model. The Asian markets are collapsing because THEY are trying to get their financial house in order because they have subsidized OUR life styles here by buying our CRAP.
Liberal AND Proud @ 385:
The facts are it worked? No it hasn't. Its caused the problems in the 70's known as stagflation which completely confused keynesians when there was both inflation AND a drop in economic performance- and Paul Volcker was forced to raised interest rates upwards of 20% to save the dollar. Of course back then we had the infrastructure to afford to pay our debts-but that's not the case now. The idea that an economy depends on CONSUMPTION and not production is the problem today. Consumption is the end result of production- not the other way around. I'm not for "supply-side" economics- since its obvious that you need spending cuts to offset tax reductions- and that you also need to REDUCE barriers of entry to the market- not increase them. The republicans don't know anything either.
George Bush said that the 700B bailout can not help economy
http://youtube.com/watch?v=u3BkNBKfqAE or here: http://tubedirect.net/index.php?q=Bush-interview
Personally, I do not like
Tyler Durden @ 91:
this is bogas! were not to lazy for necktie partys, its just that the shipment of ropes not here yet, one of chinas merchant ships loaded with that hemps went down in a typhoon , but the ropes being loaded on a new ship as we speak, i
Rep Trent Franks is stirring up and repeating false and inflammatory rhetoric about Iran. I tell you folks the fear language is being ramped up about Iran including what Obama said on Face the Nation on Sunday.
The fear language has been turned on full force ever since the Iranian President ended up on Larry King Live and Amy Goodmans Democracy Now
Amy Goodman's 2 part interview with the Iranian President last week
http://www.democracynow.org/2008/9/25/iranian_president_mahmoud_ahmadine...
http://www.democracynow.org/2008/9/26/iranian_president_mahmoud_ahmedine...
Rep Frank is really ramping up the rhetoric about Iran...something is up.
DeBartolo @ 382:
Holy bad ideas, Batman! A limit of two terms for every Congressman will INCREASE the influence of lobbyists and smoke-filled-room professional operatives. We've tried it in California. The multitudes of rookies don't know the process, and are influenced by people who do.
What we need is a different system of elections. We need a way to consent to our personal representation; a system where we get rid of the notion of "winning" or "losing" elections based on the majorities of arbitrarily drawn (or gerrymandered) districts. If the people had a different way of allocating representation and power, so much would change. Comprehensive electoral reform is what we need.
After this election, absent some unexpected radical change, I'm done with the Democrats, and focusing my energies on changing the electoral system at all levels of government.
Steve E @ 398:
No Steve, I have been a registered Republican for 55year; supported them with my money, time, NAME and INFLUENCE. I've shut down HALF of my operations in 9 states during 2008 because of the PEOPLE I voted into office. What did they tell me? "Irs just a slow down, it will get better" LIKE HELL IT WILL...now especially with the antics of the DUMB ASS Republican House members attempting to SAVE McCain election.
Took a HARD DAMN HIT on my pocket to open my eyes...and TRUST ME, I FACED THE TRUTH and the GOP screwed me be taking my kids futures!
OMG the regulations were not enforced, manpower and funding slashed
Quick, let's get rid of all regulations!!!
Noah @ 395:
Federal, State, Local, sales, and other taxes ARE excessive taxation and it hurts the middle class the most. The countries with higher corporate tax rates than us include, Pakistan, The Republic of Congo, and other countries that aren't doing very well by the way. Higher corporate taxes basicaly translate into higher taxes for the shareholders, employees, or customers of that corporation- so I don't see how that sounds like a fantastic idea to anyone.
Reducing or raising taxes does NOT CREATE WEALTH. They can either destroy it(such as through a war) or redistribute it via spending. With reagan's policies they were redistributed from the middle class to the rich. If the government lowered taxes for everyone, they still did not CREATE wealth, they just stole less of it. Private citizens create wealth on their own through production and selling their goods or services. Reagan tried to get elected on the idea of free-markets- but what he delivered was very much the opposite.
oh hell dont worry about the comeing depression , its going to happen anyway, i lived thru the one of the thirtys, just learn to live off boiled baked fried stewed potatoes, great northen beans allso is a must, of course when your kids set in class holding back farts till thier brains start frying , oh never mind im just reliveing the good old bad days! besides they are sure to revive welfare vouchers so you can buy a chicken once a month,
Yes @ 404:
Stagflation was caused by an articial rise in oil prices caused by the OPEC embargo, which led to hyper inflation.
Get your facts straight.
The economic downturn was due to the artificially high oil prices and SHORTAGES.
It was not caused by government.
Harry @ 329:
Yup, just make sure they are well tenderized first.
Average Guy @ 400:
Yeah, Ron Paul... the hater of everything public who has lived off the public tit for most of his career.
How many crashes do we need for Libertarians to get through their thick skulls that there is no such thing as "an invisible hand"? 2,3,... 20? WTF?
They remind me to the idiot who reads about about quantum physics and all that he gets accross from the text is thinking that he may be able to cross that brick wall due to uncertainty.
And here we are the prototypical libertarian in a personal quest to cross the cement wall, smashing his face against it full speed. Only to come to the conclusion that it is not that running against a wall @ full speed is a silly enterprise, but rather... that he simply did not run fast enough, so this next time he is sure he will cross that wall now that he is going to attain the required speed.
I don't have much time left today- but I had to reply for the person that said that Das Kapital has never been refuted. I dunno why people continue to think that way. I don't know about a line-by-line debunking- but plenty of books have been written about Marx with Das Kapital and every other single idea he's had- such as the labor theory of value being discussed. Requiem for Marx, Marxism unmasked: From delusion to destruction, and others. Where did you get this idea from? Marxism seems more like a religion every single day.
swampfox @ 411:
So you admit that your brain WAS fried! I suspected as much . . ;^)
Indictment coming! Well Mr. Obama should have been vetted by the msm. Mr. Rezko is cooperating with the feds and turning on the messiah as well as the Gov. of Illinois. You heard it first from me, a little birdie told me this will happen in the next few weeks! Maybe now people will realize why Bill Clinton has been so smug the last few weeks.
There's way too much noise and chaos in this thread....everyone in the peanut gallery with their little pet theory on what what's really happening.
Problem is, no one even knows what the hell is going on. That includes our so-called leaders, and it includes Michael Moore (whom I love), but quite frankly he's full of shit when he says that this mortgage crisis could have been avoided if only we had Universal Healthcare. Uhm, no. UHC is a great idea, Mr. Moore, but has pretty much nothing to do with the epidemic of defaults taking place.
In any case, who do we blame for this mess...a mess witht he world turned upside down. Dems siding with Bush and sponsoring a bailout of the banking system? Repigs going populist and opposing it? I hate these pigfuckers...they should lined up on the Mall and shot.
Liberal AND Proud @ 412:
This is a fundamental misunderstanding of inflation. High oil prices do not cause inflation- because what inflation is- is the INCREASE of the money supply. Which is exactly what the government did. Inflation makes the price of ALL goods rise- not just oil. Did you forget that nixon took us off the gold standard in 1971 because we couldn't afford to pay our debts to foreigners for our spending like the Vietnam war? Remember- inflation is the INCREASE in the money supply- that is all it is. Zimbabwe is facing hyperinflation exactly due to that. The Weimar republic even began to print only on one side of their currency to cut down on costs they were printing up money so fast. The economic downturn WAS caused by the government. You can't have something as expensive as Vietnam and Korea, and our other domestic spending programs and expect that you won't effect the currency.
I'm sure all those American regions dependent on government contracts for infrastructure creation, repair and especially defense contracting will be surprised that government taxes that help pay for all that don't create wealth.
Methinks it seems some folk confuse capital with labor.
Additionally, Marx was only one of a large wave of socialist/Communist reformers in 19th century England, most of whom were church based political reformers.
Regulations are the synthesis for the antithesis of laissez-faire and socialism economic theories if I may wax Hegelian. They Keynesians understand this.
Also some people seem to be all over the map here with the blame, it's the federal reserves fault (interfering with the market place,) or it's taxes (levied by Congress.) Somehow it's never the individuals taking advantaged of lax regulations caused by politicians who believe, "government is the problem."
Tyler Durden @ 414:
Do you really listen to anything that pro-free market guys have been saying? Those crashes we went through is a direct result of the federal reserve system and fractional reserve banking. I can switch it up and say the same thing to you- How many crashes do we need for central planners to get through their thick skulls that there is no way the government can manage an economy? The Fed creates these business cycles and crashes over and over- such as the tech bubble and the housing bubble. Why do you support the fed model?
Somehow I don't think you'll ever get rid of lobbyists since their existence is constitutionally guaranteed and that particular clause will be the last to go.
billy @ 417:
That's better.
Yes @ 415:
Obviosuly your capacity for reading and comprehension are limited at best.
Do not turn this into a strawman.
If you knew anything about the Vienna school, is that one of their founding motifs was that they were supposed to be a direct answer to the theories put forth by Marx. Basically, Marx' theory was that capitalism, had to be viewed as an interim system which allows the transition from Feudalism to the industrial revolution and that as such (its interim nature) it is not sustainable.
Vienna school followers for the past century have been able to provide the authoritative answer to Das Kapital that they have been promising. In fact, every time their member's policies have been enable they have ended in the same result: unmitigated economic clusterfucks.
ysbaddaden @ 420:
Again you midundestand. The government is not CREATING wealth for those contracts. Because they don't earn any money! They have to tax or inflate the currency to pay for those contracts. That's what I mean when I say the government can only destroy or redistribute wealth. When the government taxes us to help pay for creating new missles- they redistributed wealth from us to help the military industrial complex. That is not wealth creation. When wealth is created- everyone's standard of living gets better- the way we do it- some get rich- the rest get poor.
Its not really being all over the map when I say its both the Federal Reserve, Congress, and the whitehouse's fault for nearly everything. That's blaming it on the government. Individuals on their own cannot cause an economic collapse of this magntitude by making foolish market decisions(such as loaning to those that can't afford the loan). You can continue to think that we need some type of Father figure that will make sure us petty private citizens don't go crazy- but I hold humanity in a higher regard than I do state's. Since state's can only operate through the use of force.
Yes @ 64:
This bailout crap smacks of spin - and I don't think the economy is as bad as the jokers in DC make it out to be. Notice "fear" words were used in every speech!
Hey, I'll throw some tomatoes!!
Somehow I think the repugs voted not on principle but on pecuniary interests. They depend on campaign contributions from the very industries affected by the bailouts, but don't want the strings attached.
Some of them may be the powerful one that'll act like vultures and consume the mice.
Funny how businessmen who deal with contracts, don't like a contract on them.
Funny how I'm told I misunderstand something by someone who can't spell misunderstand.
euthyfro @ 39:
A zombie President presiding over a zombie economy.
Appropriate.
Matt in Texas @ 40:
Thanks, I will. If I begin to think that Palin is qualified to be president of the US, I'll call 911
All 3 major indexes, The Dow, the S & P 500 and the Nasdaq are below the level they were at on the day Geo. Busch was sworn in as President in January 2001.
And mere blocks away construction at the WTC Ground Zero site has still not gotten above street level, 7 years on.
Heckuva Job, Georgie.
~Nyc
Hey everybody,
C&L.....Let's buy a bank!!!! This is the time.....!!
P.D. @ 44:
The only lines they will be standing in will be the lines at their overseas banks to get at the money they've been socking away for this day, which they knew would come.
member when we worried about terror
The part I didn't like was the increased powers of the Sec. of the Treasury. For anyone who truly read the bill from front to back, what powers were taken away by the oversight?
I don't think any bailout bill will pass until there is PUNISHMENT for Wall Street. The CEO limitations are too weak (so they're not tax-deductible - so what!) and the TYPE of crap we'll be forced to take is too toxic. We're the ones holding the money, so if Wall Street doesn't like our terms, then tough shit - let them fail. We'll go into a depression and President Obama will do better by us than this.
Oh my God! What happens now?
This is starting to feel like walk the plank.
euthyfro @ 39:
"When Fascism comes to America, it will be called Americanism."
--Huey Long
Gee, Nancy, maybe declaring Congressional Martial Law wasn't the way to go about this. Turns out you can't bully your House that way.
Or, could it be that you knew what you were doing, wanted it to fail, and will soon come out and tell everyone that Republican greed is what prevented a deal, and that there's only one way to fix everything now: to elect Obama and to have a real progressive movement.
Nah. You're too disappointing all around for that.
P.D. @ 44:
Oh my...what will happen to the Lamborghini market now! oh noooo....and the Hermes tie market....oh oh...it's Armageddon!!!!
Rich people will have to start shopping in...in...in...WALLLLMART! NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
SatininLumpofFatonMamasNeck @ 51:
I think we already bought a couple before we even heard about this bailout bill.
Matt in Texas @ 52:
That is the bitter irony here. They would never feel a sense of conscience and offer themselves up to the authorities for stealing the money of everyday people.
Tomorrow will be a good day to NOT own stock.
You should all hope this bill never comes to pass. Where is this $700 billion going to come from?(And remember they said the Iraq war would cost 50 billion, the true cost was much higher, expect this bill to bring costs of trillions if it goes through). This is going to lead to the complete destruction of the dollar. A recession is NECESSARY- the Federal reserve, congress, and the whitehouse have been running this country through massive debt and thinking consumption drives an economy and creates wealth when it doesn't. A recession purges all these malinvestments, as interest rates will skyrocket and make it much harder to borrow. This will force Americans to go back to saving and production. This is a GOOD thing- everyone in congress is scrambling to make it EASIER for americans to borrow when they're already in deep amounts of debt. Why? Why are they forcing House prices to go up- they NEED to come down, then Americans can actually afford them instead of having to get a mortgage much higher than their hosue is worth. Central Planning shows its failures time and time again but yet people want MORE spending and MORE central planning from government idiots that don't know a damn thing about the market or how they effect people's lives.
As the fed continues to buy private businesses- there isn't some irrational fear that the government will take more profits more than the private sector(and if they did, how is that a good thing? You and me are the private sector)- because the government IS NOT GOING TO RUN any business in a profitable way. They're going to lose all the money they threw into AIG for example because they are incompetant. Say no to all these bailouts. The central bankers cause the problem- and then people are running to them for a solution? I'm sorry but Paulson, Nancy Pelosi, Bush, and nearly all of congress DO NOT KNOW ANYTHING about economics, they do not know ANYTHING about monetary policy. These people shouldn't be respected in the least, people should be burning their effigy's and throwing tomatoes at them.
maybe America has had enough at last.
P.D. @ 56:
Well..I don't know about you...but after work I'm having something to eat and try to get laid.
Wanna join me? ; 0 )
Nyc Labrets @ 50:
If you adjust the index points to inflation, these indexes have been below 2001 levels for a while.
I guess that whatever speculation giveth, speculation taketh away...
I would suggest that we need to lynch more than just the CEOs.
When Black Friday comes
I'm gonna stand down by the door
And catch the gray men when they
Dive from the fourteenth floor...
Liberal@60, That ,in a way, is Poetic Justice. Remember Will & Grace? Can you imagine all the Karen Walkers of the world having to buy off the rack? The Horrors!
Matt in Texas @ 52:
Congress tells Wall Street; let the jumping out of windows begin.
I bought a garden hose so that I can help hose down the sidewalks of Wall Street.
Tyler Durden @ 424:
Now that's just not true. Just beacuse you feel that Marx's theories are infallible doesn't mean they haven't been refuted! They've done so many times- I've even referred you to two books on the subject written by austrian economists. Socialism is what is truly not sustainable- I don't know how many times we need to see socialism fail for people to get the point- and socialistic and fascist policies is what we've had for decades- not anything resembling a free-market.
Yes @ 419:
This is a fundamental misunderstanding of inflation which can be cause by either a shortage of supply or an increase in the money supply or any combination thereof.Linking the value of currency to any commodity, is stupid since it allows the corporations that control the source of supply of that commodity (gold miners for example) to set monetary policy.
Funny how some people run around like Chicken Little about the "Big government's" sky falling, but ignore the gaping canyon of Big Business at their feet.
In fact if anything, Big Business destroyed the free market place by getting rid of competiting marketers, monopolizing various businesses and industries, and buying the politicans they want to make it continue.
Surging Blue Lensman @ 416:
no such luck charlie, i wasnt that inhibited, heck i just farted and the other kids who came from asshole familys like yours loved the smell, sometimes maby it was your granpaw used to catch them in a jar so they could take them home for enjoyment later!
Tyler Durden @ 341:
You guys are so eager to knock Ron Paul you've completely missed that what he's saying
is Congress should take back and live up to its Constitutional obligations
with respect to regulating money and commerce.
As well, the "over-regulation" about which he's complaining is crap like the OCC pulled, as
documented by Eliot Spitzer (just because he likes prostitutes does not mean he doesn't know
what he's talking about concerning the OCC) in my comment #265, above.
ysbaddaden @ 428:
You know what typos are right? If so...then what is the point of this comment?
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