Quick Thought on the VP Debate
By John Amato Thursday Oct 02, 2008 1:50pm
I was taking notes throughout, but won't regurgitate all of them. Ifill's moderation style was more like a Miss America contest in that it wasn't really a debate. More like an "answer this question, please, " "What would you do if you had three wishes?" kind of thing. That really benefited Sarah Palin. And even with those guidelines, she chose not to answer questions directly put to her.
PALIN: I may not answer the questions that either the moderator or you [gesturing to Biden] want to hear, but I'm going to talk straight to the American people and let them know my track record also.
[..] I like being able to answer these tough questions without the filter, even, of the mainstream media kind of telling viewers what they've just heard. I'd rather be able to just speak to the American people like we just did. And it's so important that the American people know of the choices that they have on November 4th.
Effortlessly, Palin lumped Biden with Ifill, then boo-hoo-hooed about the way the mainstream media "kind of" work.
Politicians do that, but all Ifill had to do was say, 'please answer my question because we can talk about energy later," when she refused to answer the question posed at one point early in the debate and went back to the topic of energy. At least Lehrer guided the candidates back on topic, but Ifill didn't bother. After thinking about it overnight, and after the news of her book was released, she should have been replaced for this debate.
We wrote that Palin is a good debater and probably would do a good job, but I had no idea it would be such an easy format. If I had done better job on researching Ifill, I would have known this is standard practice for her. Palin tried to say that she made a bad joke when she said she didn't know what the job of the VP was, I believe that was Couric-Palin Sarah Palin speaking. She probably didn't know. With that said, I think she opened up well enough to calm down the conservative activists that were freaking out about her Couric-Palin performance.
Biden was either a little nervous or just playing it safe during the first 30 minutes or so. He could have challenged her talking points to fill us in with some real facts instead of McCain talking points. On Obama's voting record, I doubt she could have named many bills. So if he asked for specifics, she would have been lost, but, as usual the Obama team likes to play it safe, and he backed off. I think it allowed her to get comfortable and reel in her angry base and maybe some rank and file voters as well. It also gave the conservative talking heads reason to cheer. Palin wasn't embarrassing, so She Won!
After that, I thought Biden did a wonderful job for the final two-thirds, about when they hit foreign policy. He stopped looking down and really showed a passion I've never seen before from him.
Palin was able to recite her talking points--almost robotically at times--while Joe really was comfortable with facts. And then when it got to the powers of the VP and McCain the Maverick, Biden was exceptional.
I wish Biden would have mixed it up a bit so that he could have knocked her off point, but that was his choice. He focused on McCain. As I look to the morning fishwraps, they seem to hold my view that Biden won but Palin did well enough to ease the base. CNN's poll says Biden won, 51-36, but she increased her favorablers or--she got the style vote.
CBS News conducted a cross-country poll of 473 uncommitted voters who watched the debate and found 46 percent said Biden won the debate, compared to 21 percent for Palin. Thirty-three per cent said it was a tie.
However, I think what might happen though is that on Friday, instead of the endless loops of debate coverage--- all the attention that would have normally been focused on it, will quickly shift to the Stock Market and the House debate over the vote on the bail-out bill. And then we'll be heading into the next Presidential Debate.
You'll notice that many pundits who cried about"no soundbytes" in the first Presidential debate remained pretty silent on that fact now. Biden did have sone pretty good ones, but because they weren't between Biden and Palin personally, they were virtually ignored.
UPDATE: Daily Howler:
At some point, real pundits would have said some of the things Biden finally said last night. But Alter's gang was slobbering hard-which helps explain why Biden's speech was such a shock to the ear. John McCain has been no maverick on the things that matter to people's lives? Pundits, locked in a slobbering swoon, never quite managed to go there.
UPDATE 2: Boing Boing has the Sarah Palin Debate Flow chart. Pretty funny and true.
Login or Register to post comments.
I thought it was interesting that Palin blamed "Main Street" for the financial crisis. Clearly a mispeak, but amusing nonetheless:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhjj2z7uBRc
sarah palin seems to think that the purpose of journalism is to give an open mic for candidates to choose their topics and say whatever they want the public to hear. If a journalist actually tries to lead the interview, Palin calls that a "filter" that distorts her message. Someone needs to explain to her that that's what advertisements are for. You pay for the air time, and you choose the message.
They are called the "House of Representatives" Just who are they "representing"????
the debate lacked substance. it was like a political version of 'american idol'. i can't blame gwen ifil she wanted the
emphasis on the candidates....i knew she would be viewed as soft. again i viewed Palin as a caricature...NO
depth just nonsensical sound bites....yuck
palin's robotic regurgitations were not called out by Ifil, she just went on to the next question, it can be too civil sometimes. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fx2v_BX49fI
It wouldn't have mattered if the moderator was Gawd Himself.
The only ones they'd be happy with would be Limbaughlls or Hannitity. They might have accepted Coultergiest.
I like Gwen Ifill,but they had her over a barrel. She was in a no win situation. And with that being the case, she should have walked.
Substance. We need substance. Not a fricken popularity contest.
I felt bad for Ifill. Had she confronted Palin and demanded that she stick to the agreed format, the liars on the right would have attacked her for being in Obama's camp. That bull shit "straight talk" line by moose girl was so arrogant. The Repukes simply don't play by the rules.
"no rules for us, cry about the rules" express.
What about THIS part though!?
http://www.youtube.com/v/v7gDTQ4ZdA8&hl=en&fs=1
Did you notice how palin never gave the courtesy to Ifill (african-american) to look at her and acknowledge her presence? That's the same thing mccan't did with obama (african-american). hmmmmm.
palin acknowledged Ifil right at the start, but it was not while at the podium where every one could notice.
wondering why the MSM is repeating that Sarah pulled herself out of her hole. "Talabani" "may I call you Joe", wink wink wink, missed four of the questions that Gwenn asked including the Achilles heal question. the hogwash claim that the Iranian president said "israel should be wiped off the map" instead of what he really said Zionism will"vanish from the page of time", her pledge of allegiance to Israel, "tapped me" would that be the same tapping in the illegal wiretapping program . There is so much material there.
Jon Stewart could do another skit where they link those probes to monitor Joe Six packs brain to see how Sarah's stroking of the reptilian brain stem worked.
http://www.jewishjournal.com/video/article/video_jewish_voters_in_florid...
To be honest, Palin showed her true colors during that debate. Of course the right is going to endear themselves to her. That's a given. But it was her crass language and ill-bred behavior (winking, etc.) that worked against her.
I mentioned in the other thread that I would never want a foreign leader of my country to use such colloquialisms, "You betcha" or "Doggone it" or "Shout Out". That is disgusting and rather crass. I don't know of anyone who thinks what she did on stage was cute or folksy. It came off as contrived and idiotic.
It is already hard to listen to Chimpface as it is. But if McCain and Palin make it into office, we as a country have truly reached the nadir of what we represent. Along with that, I don't think I could listen to a speech that either would have to give during their tenure.
Remember all those style rules you learned in 9th grade english like avoid using passive voice, etc? Palin does exactly the opposite. They should show debate footage in school just to show kids how incoherent they sound when they don't listen to their english teachers.
How is it that people who can't communicate for shit are able to rise to such high positions in government?
Left&Left @ 7:
No follow up what so ever when Palin did not at all answer questions asked.
I'm not sure that even qualified as a debate. It was more like dueling press conferences. No follow-up questions and no real interaction between the two candidates. Hell, Palin stated right up front she wouldn't even answer the questions. I was floored by that. Unreal.
Of course, the GOP did a fine job of lowering expectations. In reality, Palin wasn't competing against Biden. She was competing against her own shockingly bad interviews with Gibson and Couric. Thus, she came out a "winner."
This election will be an intelligence test for American voters. We've just endured eight miserable years with a president who people wanted to have a beer with. Will people again vote for someone (Palin) who's just like them???
I would hope the answer is a resounding no. But considering the countless morons that populate this country, I could be wrong.
bart @ 11:
I'm talking about throughout the debate. When someone asks you a question, you normally, at least initially, would acknowledge them. She seemed to go straight to the TV lens.
Yohance @ 9:
As soon as she opened her mouth, that response bar below the screen showed her dropping like a rock.
I found the debate plenty interesting.
Gov. Palin took the folksy Ronald Reagan route and it worked -- in part -- for her. But the world is a different place now and audiences are much more sophisticated. Her evasions couldn't be completely covered up in the way Reagan's were.
I found myself impressed with her composure -- especially after all the gaffes -- but even more convinced she lacks the real intelligence to make key decisions in critical situations. Remember, she had weeks to prepare for this. Most of life doesn't offer us that luxury.
As to Sen. Biden, I think he played it just right. I WANTED him to attack Palin, but knew that was just my desire to see her crash and burn.
We've got a little under five weeks to see that without his help . . .
Rick Street @ 10:
She barely shook Ms. Ifill's hand at the end of the debate as well. Her behavior conveyed not only her self-centeredness, coldness and ruthlessness, it also did shine a mirror on her condescending behavior.
But she sure identified with "Main Street" Americans, did she? They love that pluck and spunk! /snark
DO THEY SURVEY ACTUALLY NON-COMMITTED VOTERS WHO HAPPEN TO WORK FOR THE CAMPAIGNS TO GET THESE REACTION NUMBERS!?!?! THERE'S NO WAY IT COULD HAVE LOOKED THAT F'IN CLOSE! PALIN CHALLENGED PEOPLE TO FACT-CHECK. FACT-CHECK FACT-CHECKED AND SHE LIED, MADE STUFF UP, WINGED-IT! FROM HER ASS TO HER MOUTH!
sorry about the capitals. my mom does that to me in texts. it's annoying, but i'm angry.
I felt Gwen Ifill did a reasonably good job. the format was already decided and the questions got trickier as the night wore on ie Cheney. It also let Biden hammer away at Bush/McCain.
Personally I'm appalled that Mooose Woman(palin) feels she can make up her own rules and it'll be okay with americans...we know she can read now, and she can recite, frankly i'm sick and tired of her, troopergate is the same, does this sound familiar as in the bush regime not not being accountable....we should be able to expect our candidates/official to play by the rules not make it up as they go....
New Fucking Rule:
If one 'contestant' refuses to 'play' by the rules (like refusing to answer questions), the 'game' is halted, and this particular fault is pointed out until:
1) the offending player answers the question to the moderator's satisfaction OR
b) the offending 'player' concedes victory to the player who has agreed to the same set of rules and abides by them, OR
III) the game is called by the moderator, due to non compliance by a participant with the rules agreed upon by both parties, before the
debacle'debate' (it's not a debate).Go watch the thing again, and count the number of "unresponsive" responses Palin dropped in there. If she includes the word "again" as preface, that's a stone-cold tell that what you're gonna hear next is an evasion.
Awful Ifill never once called the bible-blathering bint on it...
Left&Left @ 7:
Like Obama, she's under tremendous restraint in order to do her job--especially as a black woman in a power position. I mean, what was she supposed to do? Any move against Gov. Hockey Mom would be taken as aggressive, if not "uppity".
I would certainly hope that when people attack Ms. Ifill, they keep that in mind that she too has a fine line to walk.
Some white people have power issues along with their racist leanings.
DaveK @ 1:
When you are just spouting things you learned the night before you make mistake.
I must respectfully disagree. I thought Ifill did well, if anything it showed Palin's ignorance. There was no reason to replace her because of the news about her book. She is one of the few journalists with integrity left.
The Truth Hurts @ 16:
great insight. Debatin' Palin v. Interviewin' Palin. She likes a podium.
Even if I was so stupid as to be a fan of Ms. Palin, I would have to say as I sit here wondering how in the heck I'm gonna pay fer groceries and fer college and fer another tank of gas, that I would not know for this young spunky gal is gonna solve my problems. Liking her isn't going to fix my problems.
I cannot believe the gall of the woman who is from middle america and from small town, to get up there and tell other people from middle america and small towns and other hackey moms to vote to get mugged again. While she lines her pockets with her Alaska folks tax dollars. that's gall.
Is she going to charge me for voting for her?
One side wants to continue the war in Iraq. The other side wants more troops in Afghanistan. The compromise will probably be a little of both. On second thought, the compromise will most likely be a LOT OF BOTH!
One side wants equal treatment under the law for gay couples, the other side wants NO gay marriages. The compromise will probably be a little of both.
But the one thing that they will BOTH silently agree on will be to continue using the Federal Reserve banking cartel to finance their plans for world pacification and social engineering.
Sarah Palin, as appealing as she is, is obviously an empty seat. But Joe Biden is about the most warmongering Democrat that they could find.
John McCain appeals to me NONE WHATSOEVER, but I suspect that Obama's consensus-building stance will lead to compromises that will further bankrupt this nation.
I don't want to be an enabler for the one-party system anymore.
I'm voting for Chuck Baldwin.
Maybe I'm wasting my vote. But I also happen to think that I'd be wasting my vote if I picked one of the foregone conclusions.
miss_kitty @ 24:
Yes, and I thought I saw something sticking out of her right ear; and on another blog somebody said CNN determined palin was wired to receive audio. I think there should also be a "swearing in" at the beginning that there are no communication devices on the participants.
Lets face the facts. Liberals are a bunch of spineless jelly fish. We had a chance to go after McCain/Palin but instead we told everyone how we love John McCain. Oh he is so great. He surrendered in Viet Nam. Became a stoolie and we still treat the fool with respect. Man if he was a lib the cons would be hanging him in times square.
This slightly OT, but i think you will all appreciate what Egan is saying.
Here's a thought on the debate.
Palin is ILLITERATE. Period!!!!!!!!!!!!
Now drop the Palinmania and return to bashing Rush Limbaugh while your criminals-in-congress steal your federal tax dollars.
Elect John McCain and let the Republicans finish Newt Gingrich's contract ON America.
Douche Bag move of the night was walking out to say" may I call you Joe" as a set-up for memorized lines latter. I noticed she was rightfully addressed as Governor all evening and Senator Biden deserved the same respect and he did not diss her by addressing her as Sarah.
Unless it is stolen from them, I am pretty convinced now that Obama/Biden will win the election. Palin will return to Alaska and probably face a tough re-election campaign in 2010. Whether she wins that or not she will still be a strong presence in national republican politics and could well make a run against Obama in 2012. My question is will she try to bone up on the history, current affairs and economics a presidential contender can fairly be expected to have have knowledge of or will she continue to rely on memorizing a few key words and talking points to get her through the interviews and debates?
Bobby @ 28:
Pari @ 19:
this format worked for Palin. If there was more time
like the obama/mccain debate format, I believe Palin
would have been exposed to a level that some americans
need. sure many of us are bias but it was obvious to
any thinkers that Palin offered NO depth/nuance...why?
it's NOT there. Instead Palin had this caricature type
robotic fast talking cheerleader theme....good enough
to prevent an obvious gaffe for the red culture club. this debate further revealed to me Palin does NOT have the essential elements needed to be vice president possibly president. people that believe Palin has the
essential knowledge are lying to themselves. that's what people will do when going against their culture club is at stake.
tjb @ 35:
she's as subtle as a ton of bricks. I noticed that as well as the "so nice to MEET YOU."
Does anyone have the link to the COMPLETE Couric Interview with Palin?
Slick Sarah @ 32:
http://www.usvetdsp.com/smith_mc.htm old news but just a refreasher about the graet american biden is in love wiyh. Obama beter come out swinging hard.
The Truth Hurts @ 16:
I'm sorry and the last two weren't?
constituent @ 39:
Do you know what the debate reminded me of? Those fast-paced dialogues from the 1940's/1950's Film Noirs in which the hero and heroine would exchange snappy dialogue with little substance and a lot of style.
Another film the debate reminded me of was the original Front Page. It was like that kind of dialogue throughout the first half until Biden schooled Palin on the facts. Then, the dialogue began to slow down.
constituent @ 39:
I agree. Plus Biden helped by pointing out to the viewers when Palin didn't answer a question or didn't offer any specific ideas or vision vs. relying on us to get there on our own. I wasn't expecting that and thought it was pretty effective. If you take Palin's performance on its own, then yes, one could still be fooled.
The Very Bitter Ceci Hussein @ 26:
True. And those lying, racist bastards are silent today. They owe Gwen Ifill an apology(of course that'll never happen) for slandering her before the fact. I can't think of a circumstance where an incident like this has ever occurred....And Republicans actually wonder why black people hate them so much.
She was more condescending to the electorate than the Chimp is. Insulting cow.
Slick Sarah @ 42:
Thanks for the link Sarah, I will read in a minute. Have you seen the recent piece in Rolling Stone. brutally takes on McCain's hero image. there's also a diary on vet voice with an encyclopedia of senate votes detailing McCain's betrayal of fellow vets and the military. let me know if you need links.
btw, just saw a jeep today covered with marine stickers and bumper stickers including one for Obama. vets aren't fooled. peace.
Left&Left @ 46:
Neither can I. Throughout my years of watching Presidential Debates, I have never seen an incident like what happened to Ms. Ifill. Never.
That doubly proves that what they did was not only condescending, but very racist.
I imagine, that they would never do the same thing to Tom Brokaw. I mean, after all, the man is only a liason to the McCain campaign. Hmmmm. I wonder what kicking and screaming will happen on the Republican's part about that?
Biden's refuting of Palin's (her sock-puppet master's) attempt to insert soundbytes that are intended to leave a manipulative, residual subliminal imprint was probably effective, judging from the look on Palin's face. Maverick? Mavericky goodness? Indeed...
I found Palin's manner extremely insulting. She comes across as an extremely shallow woman who is used to manipulating equally shallow men with her looks and cutesy routine: A flash of leg or cleavage, a contrived smile that comes and goes at the flick of a switch, a little girl/airheaded cheerleader tone and turn of phrase, a strategic eye batting here, a cutesy tactical giggle there, the "come hither, sailorboy" wink, et voila(!), Sarah gets whatever Sarah wants in life. It is clear she expects these behaviors to get the job done for her. She still relies on social "skills" that worked for her in the 6th grade, because - obviously - those behaviors have continued to work on those she targets for manipulation....which, is probably convenient for the manipulatee, because I would think that if one desired to find those "skills" in an adult, it would usually be necessary to visit a brothel. The insulting part comes from her assumption that she can deploy those behaviors on anybody other than the shallow, the weak-of-mind-and-character, as part of an effort to manipulatively extract votes. It is insulting, because all of these manipulation techniques are, on their face, dishonest. Her habitual reliance on that repertoire of behaviors betrays a cynical underlying habitual contempt for all those against whom she deploys those behaviors.
She also demonstrated the degree to which she has degraded her mind with dishonesty. Her thinking is extremely compartmentalized; that is probably a necessity that results from needing to juxtaposition two or more self-contradictory lies, one lie resting comfortably against the other. Anybody else notice how many times she advance a dishonest position only to contradict it in her following sentence with yet another dishonest statement (tying the whole package up with the 1983 Miss Mooseburger's winningest smile and another "Yoo hoo...Sailorboy..." wink)?
Also, notice how the cutesy routine got switched off with nanosecond speed when she saw it wasn't working, only to be filled with the nonstop running of the mouth that has been tried by every bullshit artist of a failing/mediocre student in history? Another behavior she learned in the sixth grade and has been using ever since.
One of the things I found both insulting and telling was her statement that Obama's plan for Iraq amounted to the "white flag of surrender". I thought it insulting, because she assumed that a dishonest metaphor could be used to emotionally manipulate the viewers into supporting an act of profound waste and criminality. It bespeaks nothing at all good about her (or whoever it was who coached her empty little head to spew that line). I found it telling, because anybody who could say such a thing must, of necessity, hold the lives and well-being of the the troops in a callous and viscious contempt. In other threads, I have named Palin as a sociopath. This is an instance of her sociopathy poking its ugly head past the illusion of her public persona. She is unfit for any position of trust, influence or power.
Biden did well. One of the things he did that I especially liked, and I'm positive he wasn't aware of doing, was the look he gave Palin when she was lying, or attempting to bullshit or acting out any of her manipulation routines. It was a look I've seen in parents, in mentors, loved ones, counselors and the like when one who is cared about has taken a trip down a wrong path, and the only possible outcome of that trip is a life gone wrong. He had the look of deep disappointment sculpted on his face...like the prison counselor who arrives to the moment of realization that his current charge will never turn from a path of self-defeating behavior or the parents, at that moment they are finally forced to acknowledge that their child cannot not be swayed from a life of ruinous and self-destructive choices. They were ungaurded expression that said positive things about his character as a human being.
I liked his comments that began with (paraphrasing) "Where do I begin? There's so many lies and distortions that need to be refuted..."
I do wish he would have made mention at the appropriate spot how many of those who voted for the authorization to use force were manipulated into doing so by Bush by mechanism of the highly orchestrated campaign of lies and disinformation that Bushco waged in order to go to war. The same for the bailout and financial crises; I wish he would have made mention of how the Bush regime corrupted the OCC and directed that office to undemine all banking and investment consumer protection laws that, up until Bush's malignant intervention, protected all Americans from the insatiable predation that later ensued. Much of this current mess could have been avoided were it not for that. For that alone, Bush should be impeached and imprisoned.
I also wish Biden would have, on about the third time Palin used the term, named those "blunders" for what they were: felonies, high crimes, war crimes and crimes against humanity. She should never have been allowed to get away with deploying that delusionally dishonest device whose intent was to minimalize serial acts of evil.
Finally, NPR. Neocon Propagana Radio. After the debate, while I was driving home I tuned into Public Radio. I turned the radio on midway through a discussion to hear, I believe it was Kokie Roberts from the sound of the voice, gushing praise of Palin's performance. Clearly, by this breathless accounting, Palin's performance was as important an event as Christ's walking on water. Then came the statement (paraphrasing) "Palin was just being Palin. I think she won over all Americans with hers smiles and her winks". And then, the typical NPR damning praise for the Democrat, (also paraphrasing), "And Bidenappeared to handle himself well, too. He wasn't as much of the obnoxious asshole he usually is, the sneering elitist well all know him to be. He must have been coached on that..". It was the typical NPR attempt to hypnotize: "I like Palin, so... you do too. I hate Biden, so...you do too". I got so disgusted, that I pounded the off button on the radio, crossed the solid white line on the shoulder, and immediately got pulled over by the car that had been following me. The tailgater turned out to be a cop who wondered if I had been drinking. No, I wasn't. He let me go after I told him what that was all about. He was laughing.
I'm wondering if I'm too old to learn how to take up drinking?
Palin is clearly way out of her league, even as governor of Alaska. Only the relatively low importance of agriculture in Alaska allowed her to get away with appointing a long-time friend as head of the state's agriculture department. This is the appointee who when asked about her qualifications said that she had a life-long love of cows!
By selecting Palin to be his heir-apparent, McCain has demonstrated that he too is aiming way over his head. His likely choice of Phil Gramm, the architect of the current economic disaster, as Secretary of the Treasury, shows that as president McCain would be a clear and present danger to us and the rest of the world. McCain should suspend his campaign for good and get out of the way of Obama who may at least have some chance of fixing up the hideous mess the GOP has left for this country!
Bobby @ 43:
I'm sorry if I misunderstand your comment. I think we're saying the same thing. For the past two elections, voters have selected someone who was plain-spoken, down-to-earth and didn't need to use all them big, ol' fancy words. That has transformed the US from the world leader to an international embarrassment.
Why is it that the media lets itself get so manipulated that the bar is always lower for the Republican?
Bush was congratulated for not drooling on himself (and even so, he cheated with the transmitter and earpiece.)
Gov. Hockey Mom said up front that she wouldn't answer questions if she didn't want to, and no one asked her why she thought she could do that.
What's next? If McCain doesn't go into a rage and pummel Obama he gets congratulated for being in control?
I voted for Obama/Biden today in Ohio.
Feels great.
Personally, I have never liked Gwen Ifill as a reporter and it's the primary reason I stopped watching NPR NewsHour. She's an inside-the-beltway, he said/she said, false balance reporter. I assume that's why the Republicans originally thought she'd be an acceptable moderator.
It'll be interesting to see if she changes her interviewing style as a result of the run-up to and the moderating of this debate.
It was obvious to Biden during the debate and probably
before the debate that Palin does NOT have the knowledge to support much of what she said. Biden has
been at this for a long time. Palin is like a book with a
nice cover but it's terrible read. Palin is full of excuses
and defensive posture. To make a jump from freshman
governor of a small population state to vice president
no way.....Palin is a light weight. Palin is a mascot for the
republican party or whatever they call themselves.
I wrote this before the debate:
It comes as no surprise that this is exactly what has happened. I did hear a British journalist comment that Palin's delivery (gosh, you know, golly gee willickers, the delivery that ordinary Americans -- like David Brooks and Joe SixPack -- love so much) was "trite and cliched."
Duh. That's the least of it. But in the farce that this country has become, Sarah Palin's performance last night was all millions of Americans and the MSM needed to declare her up to the job.
I pity Obama if he wins. Governing this bunch of idiots is going to be really hard. I doubt he has the backbone to do what's necessary, since on January 21 his most important goal is likely to be re-election in 2008.
John McCain is a prescription for disaster in the short term . However, I fear the best that Obama will be able to do, even if he exceeds my expectations several times over, will be to slow the ultimate descent of this country into oblivion.
The Very Bitter Ceci Hussein @ 26:
I don't know. I think she may have just been able to quietly and firmly say "let's stay on topic here" or something like that. I don't think anyone expected her to get aggressive about or stop the "debate" because of it (although I like miss kitty's ideas!). However, by letting her employ that tactic without calling attention to it put her (Plain) in the position of being able to "frame" the discussion. It's a very powerful tactic if you get away with it.
Book? Palin is like People Magazine. (Or The National Enquirer.)
I expected her to say at some point "Look Mom, I'm on TV!".
biden built up momentum throughout the debate abd blasted palin on her folksey bullshit and the jow six-pak. he snatched the family territory from palin with his own story and he put a shellacking on the Maverick myth.
I don't see any need for criticizing Ifill for tolerating the tacky attempted zinger, it was going to happen because the mccain camp was attacking Ifill anyway. Sarah has simply proven that she is petty, vindictive, shallow and ambitious.
Sarah could not talk about her pregnant daughter or an extended family history the way Biden did. That says a lot by itself. Family values? Did sarah put aside her ambitions to raise a family? I think not. Obviously, as a mom, Sarah is as much a bimbo as she was in the beauty pageant.
Smart people, like Biden and Ifill, simply let Sarah chuck out the zingers while the stunned audience felt the assault on their intellects.
Fuck the pundits.
oh really @ 59:
Teen Beat
Palin is a national distraction.
A ruse.
and a ploy.
Get them to talk about her....
so they don't talk about us.
the whole things become a freak show.
Does Sarah Palin have the cultural literacy to know what an Achilles’ heel refers to. Sorry is that an elitist question????
I'm glad Ifill left Palin alone; It allowed her to hang herself and gave no room to claim she was ganged up on. The McCain camp was already trying that based on Ifill's upcomingf book. Mc/P got the debate rules THEY wanted, the moderator could have been pre-recorded, but they lost. No whining!
One or two folkism or ignoring the questions probably would have gotten Palin off the hook, but by the end of 90 minutes she over-used it, and you didn't need a moderator to point it out. Maybe I would have like a couple times for Ifill to have reasked the question (but Biden also redefined questions sometimes, to be honest), but I think she let us, the smart viewer, decide whether it was raining or someone was pissing on our leg.
In the end, the apparent verdict that while Palin didn't die on stage, she also didn't win (only met LOW expectations), justifies or at least allows a pass of Ifill's moderate moderation.
Fanon @ 58:
That is fair.
But we're talking about television in which actions are magnified tenfold--especially to an audience in mainstream (white) America filled with low information voters who could possibly have racist leanings.
Therein lies the rub.
The Very Bitter Ceci Hussein @ 67:
That depresses me.
Joe could not mix it up with Sarah, because we were all afraid that she would cry. Obama also can't mix it up with McCain picking on old people is a loser. Plus Obama does not want to appear as an angry black man that would throw the moderates to McCain.
Liberal AND Proud @ 62:
With me it's Barely Legal.
Is there a magazine called Teen Beat-off?
One of the things I noticed about the first presidential debates and last night's vice-president, is both Obama and Biden are fast on their feet. When Jim Leher insisted they address each other, Obama did after the first couple of responses, mcgramps never did. When Gwen Ifill complained at one point that neither one of them answered her question, Biden seem to for the rest of the debate, whilst palin could care less.
I remember at some point where the question was about how Obama and mcgramps would hand an national issue, palin started nattering about when she was mayor of Wasilla, and I was like, "What...?"
Palin kept saying she's going to "cure greed."
How the hell do you do that?
The Fundamentally Strong Rusty Shackleford @ 71:
The RAPTURE!!!!
I just wish Democrats were Perfect so all you Haters would Shut-Up.
(Hopefully, I'm not repeating a link someone else has already provided)
Another Couric-Palin/Couric-Biden moment on the Separation Between Church and State
http://www.alternet.org/blogs/video/101318/preview_for_tonight%3A_palin_...
David Campbell @ 65:
Only Thetis's hairdresser knows for sure.
I'm glad I was never the hairdresser for Medusa
Or the oculist for Polyphemus and his brothers.
Fanon @ 72:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xHPikUPlRD8
Troy @ 73:
Funny, that's what I was thinking of sarah after listening for 45 minutes to her whiney strident voice.
biden shoulda given the princess the Folksy Test.
When she said "can i call ya joe."
he shoulda replied, "sure princess, if i can c*m in yer mouth."
If she assults him for the remark she passes the folksy test....i'm guessing.
If she takes him up on it then....well....then....WAY TO GO JOE!!!
and you dirty woman you sarah palin, you should be ashamed, you fail!!!
......WAY TO GO JOE!!!
eh....nevermind......
i think i'll just go.........play.....spades.
The Very Bitter Ceci Hussein @ 13:
I also wonder if she didn't also used the word "also" an inordinate number of times, and in strange places, also?
The Very Bitter Ceci Hussein @ 44:
Ceci,
Like your comments and your insights.
If you remember those films, did you ever see the Ted Mack Amerature Hour show in the 50's? Palin's performance reminded me of a typical contestant on the show:
They obviously told all contestants to remember to smile evey now and then. The audience would be treated, for example, to the stylings of Melvin McGillicoughty, with his Brill Cream-beslicked hair, who nervously demonstrated his mastery of the accordian, playing his rousing rendition of "The Flight of the Bumblebee". What nuanced phrasings! What blinding dexterity! Truly, Melvin has been touched by God!And throughout this inspiring performance, he'd have this John-McCain-Death-Rictus-Smile©®™ plastered to his face. The smile was Teh Cool, proof that this talented contestant was ready for the Big Time(!), maybe even a shot at the ultimate, a slot with Lawrence Welk! But.....oh, my.....the look of frenzy in the eyes, the bead of sweat rolling down the temple and the shirt with sweat-drenched armpits betrayed the near-jibbering hysteria the was roiling just under the surface, threatening his magic fingers, promising ruin of all his ambitions and dreams. Finally, the performance comes to it's inevitable finale, a most memorable conclusion, and then... then the moment of truth: The Talent Meter......as cold and impersonal as the Icy Hand of Death Itself! The score: 10... 20.... 30... 40... can he do it(?)... 50... 55.... 57... 56... 57............. 57. 57 it is! Good, but not not as good as Florence Oates and her inspired cowgirl yoddling. Sorry, Melvin. Melvin exits, stage right, stoically maintaining his John-McCain-Death-Rictus-Smile©®™. Better luck next time, Melvin.
Sorry Sarah, the talent meter only went to 23. Better luck next time, Dear. Everybody...a round of applause for Sarah.
Exit Sarah, stage right.
The debate format modifications, courtesy of McCain campaign whining, was always gonna protect Palin from serious embarrassment. Gwen Ifil wasn't great, but she also wasn't great 4 years ago, so no surprises there.
I reckon Biden basically decided to throw out the Obama '08 rule book, and instead reverted back to his own playbook, which worked well for him during the primary debates. I've been saying for ages that Biden won the majority of debates the MSM awarded to Hillary by default. He definately got the short end of the stick. That's one of the reason he was always on my VP shortlist.
Overall, last night was a triumph for Biden, not the Obama camapaign. It was clear he made adjustments after the first 30 minutes (addressing the camera) and got to show the American people who Joe Biden is, and apparently they liked what they saw.
Like Obama last week, independents and undecideds declared Biden the winner. His internal numbers in the snap polls was really impressive. He went from a 70% on voters perception of his knowledge of issues before the debate to 95% after the debate.
It also helps if you win the debate in front of a record audience. The viewing figures were 40% higher than Obama/McCain.
The Fundamentally Strong Rusty Shackleford @ 71:
You don't. You contain it. You impose external limits upon its ability to express itself through deeds and actions. You impose those external limits by regulating it six ways to Sunday and then dispassionately punishing the hell out of the greedy who to test or violate those limits. It's the only thing that has ever worked. It's the only thing that ever will work, becasuse those greedy who are willing to act on their greed are invariably devoid of altruism.
I just had a thought...
Considering that this was the only VP debate (which in a way could be considered a "job interview" with the country), what would happen if an average person went to a job interview and told the interviewer "I may not answer the questions that you want to hear, but I'm going to talk straight to (Human Resources"?) and let them know my track record also."
Would we get the job? Well, neither will she.
I don't think Sarah Palin feels supported by this discussion. /s
RancidVenison @ 54:
Thank you! :]
Paul @ 80:
Like your comments and your insights.
Thank you very much, Paul. I like your comments and insights as well. I especially like it when you do character analysis of the heavy hitters in this race. Your attention to detail (regarding the subject matter) gives me a lot of food for thought when it comes to how to view the recent political events. :)
I am a fan of motion pictures from the Film Noir period (as well as French Nouvelle Vague, among other movements in the history of film). I'm also a lover of popular culture and television too. However, though, that show was before my time. I haven't seen it. I apologize. :(
I'm still in my thirties.
But a show that could be compared to your example would be The Gong Show. The contestants (especially the ones who put on horrendous performances) would be humiliated with the Gong before they could go any further. If they made it through, the stars (as guest judges) would rate their performance (which always cracked me up).
In that capacity, if Sarah was on The Gong Show, she would have had one of the guest judges "gong" her before she made it out of the gate. She was that bad, lol.
Exactly. That alone would show that she is not just a terrible performer, but a poor one filled with sound and fury, if not that. ;)
I appreciate you mentioning this point. I don't like Jay Leno, but he was rather astute when he said politics was show business for ugly people.
I think that about sums it up about Sarah's chances as a thespian--and as a "politician". ;)
Paul @ 82:
I guess the same way Sarah and her friends cure "the Gay!" They'll be a'prayin' for ya'
to also not take any money, again, from those lobbyist dudes. And, of course, also, as soon as them Mavericks get to town, why again, they'll just be rufflin' some feathers and doin' a whole lotta reformin'.
That's how you cure greed,
Amitola @ 87:
Reminds me of how Palin cures "being raped and impregnated by your father." She'll be prayin' for ya t'just love that baby!
There was no debate.
de·bate [di báyt]
1. talk or argue about something: to talk about something at length and in detail, especially as part of a formal exchange of opinion
They answered a series of softball questions. Well, some answered them, and some spoke about what they felt comforatble with. "As Energy Czarina... the Maverick and I... "
I feel like the book controversy really impeded Gwen Ifill's ability to moderate this debate. I wish she had stepped aside and let Jim Lehrer take over. He'd have pinned Palin down like a dead butterfly.
The Fundamentally Strong Rusty Shackleford @ 71:
I also noticed that. Cure greed? Cure greed? How exactly does one do that?
Edwin Hussein @ 91:
Wait. The French did it by chopping off their heads. Vive la France!!!!!!! Way cool solution (cure).
I must say that I have always found Gwen Ifill a bit useless. She will shill a bit for Bush & Co. and Republicans as a whole sometimes, but other than that she adds nothing to any debate about race, country, women, war, the world, journalism -- nothing. She's just a safe journalist. A safe woman journalist. A safe black woman journalist. Nothing more. Nothing less.
"Audiences are more sophisticated? Did you get a good look at that CNN focus group in Ohio? What a collection brain-dead misfits. You're giving Americans way too much credit. Many still love the idea of voting for someone who's just like them. And why not, since that has worked out so well over the past eight years."
Ah, but it played well with Reagan . . . and Bush for that matter. Last night, it didn't play well in many sectors. I didn't watch CNN. I don't like listening to "regular people" because there are many many in this country who aren't Joe Six-Pack at all.
Perhaps I AM a PollyAnna, but I do have faith that more people in this country are sick and tired of BS than not. Why else is Palin driving folks away?
What gets lost in all of this is what the debate is for. Biden was perfect, it is hard to see how he could have been much better. Had he reduced Palin to a quivering blob we would have had some great youtube moments and the base would have been excited but it would have backfired in the end. Instead he did a good job of promoting Barack and attacking McCain while looking very sober and Vice-Presidential at the same time. The VP's job (and the President's in my opinion) isn't to get the talking heads all excited with a double twist chair raising body slam, it is to run the country.
If you could take the partsianship out of it (imagine that it was a Republican debate) most people would say that there was no contest -- Biden won by miles. It is hard to imagine how Palin could have done worse than she did, looking scripted, nervous, and sometimes just plain strange. She did not look Vice Presidential.
It is time for the media to stop judging these things like it was a high school musical. "Oh Palin did better than expected, so she gets an 'A' for effort." We have serious people competing for the top job in the country during exceptionally difficult times. Let's give them the respect of judging them honestly.
The Very Bitter Ceci Hussein @ 86:
Thank you very much, Paul. I like your comments and insights as well. I especially like it when you do character analysis of the heavy hitters in this race. Your attention to detail (regarding the subject matter) gives me a lot of food for thought when it comes to how to view the recent political events. :)
I am a fan of motion pictures from the Film Noir period (as well as French Nouvelle Vague, among other movements in the history of film). I'm also a lover of popular culture and television too. However, though, that show was before my time. I haven't seen it. I apologize. :(
I'm still in my thirties.
But a show that could be compared to your example would be The Gong Show. The contestants (especially the ones who put on horrendous performances) would be humiliated with the Gong before they could go any further. If they made it through, the stars (as guest judges) would rate their performance (which always cracked me up).
In that capacity, if Sarah was on The Gong Show, she would have had one of the guest judges "gong" her before she made it out of the gate. She was that bad, lol.
Exactly. That alone would show that she is not just a terrible performer, but a poor one filled with sound and fury, if not that. ;)
I appreciate you mentioning this point. I don't like Jay Leno, but he was rather astute when he said politics was show business for ugly people.
I think that about sums it up about Sarah's chances as a thespian--and as a "politician". ;)
Good One! The Gong Show was the Ted Mack Amatuer Hour....on really good Buddha Weed. (Snarkity-snark....) Low rent. Palin's perfect venue. I'm laughing.
I think your wrong when you say Joe Biden should have attacked Sarah Palin. We already heard about Charlie Gibson, Miz Cambell and Katie Couric and how the leftist media was so mean to her. So the numbers you saw rise for Bama after the debate you would have seen them drop if Joey the shark would have attacked Sarah. He was brilliant by ignoring her and attacking John McCain because she had nothing to offer of herself she regurgitated John McCain. I think he played it perfectly.
The Fundamentally Strong Rusty Shackleford @ 88:
Well, so long as there's plenty-o-winkin'(©®™) during the prayers. And rolling on the floor and tongue talkin'? You Betcha!!! Wink, wink.
Ifill is a piss-poor "journalist". I can't remember who it was who said she would make a great Meet The Press host, but I'm still laughing at that.
Phil Deckard @ 83:
Excellent point! (Also) What's with her and the word "also"?
Note to Sarah Palin: Stop saying "Maverick", "Alaska", "Hockey Mom". "there", "don'tcha", and "special needs child" ad nauseum. Also learn to speak with some semblance of punctuation audible in your sentences, and PUH-LEEEZE stop ending your sentences with prepositions!!!
George @ 95:
Your assessments of Biden's options are dead on.
As regards the judgment issue, the media isn't judging them. The media, excepting the smallest number of token legitimate journalists, had their comments and talking points scripted weeks before the event. Their only role has been to relate the specifics of the debate back to the talking points. The talking points, in their turn, were crafted for the singular purpose of manipulating as many people as possible. These pundits and talking heads do what they do as attempts (which of late are taking on an aire of ever more deserate shabbiness) to tell the viewers what to think and how to subsequently act on those thoughts. If their message is unified among the outlets, which are controlled by a total of only 7 organizations, and the message is pervasive and incessant, the final effect is one that effectively equates to hypnosis:
We like Sarah Palin.....you do too.
We like Republicans.....you do too.
We hate Biden............you do too.
We hate Democrats.....you do too.
They do this, because as long as people trust the manipulators, their manipulations work. Never forget that these organizations are not about journalism and their employees are not journalists. Those days have been over for decades. They are propagandists. Manipulation is what propagandists do. It is the only thng they do.
Palin showed me in the debate that there are no rules that bind her. She is not a free spirit but only a free market campaigner. No rules, no truth, anything goes, spit on who you have to, to get what you want.
That would be a Palin Vice Presidency and possible Presidency.
How refreshing and new and exciting McCain/Palin are compared to
Bush/Cheney.
McCain's judgement on Palin for his VEEP is seemingly very unpatriotic considering she could be running the Iraq war and meeting with world leaders and all. Her husband (first dude) would be placed as VEEP if she took over. Because we need a snowmobile champion in Washington as well as an Aerial wolf hunter with high powered scope and rifle to kill animals out in the middle of nowhere.
You know, just next to that bridge, the one Sarah lives down the street from.
Slick Sarah @ 32:
Thank you for saying that!
Paul @ 50:
Yes, and that's why we saw the most amazing thing on the CNN dial ticker below the screen when she was talking. CNN had given those dial-rating boxes to a focus group while the debate was on, and divided the responses into men and women. Whenever Palin would go into that routine, the men's line would either stay flat, or go up, but the women's line would drop through the floor. That suggested to me that, while a lot of men are still fooled by it, women are not only wise to it, but find it fake, insulting, and disturbing.
When McCain chose Palin, most people were stunned to see how many women swung to their side. (What was it, again? Didn't Obama have a ten point lead with white women until McCain picked Palin, and the next day McCain had the ten point lead with white women?) This was a reflection of just how badly women wanted to see a female politician finally succeed. But that was BEFORE they KNEW Palin. After they got a closer look at her, they were not only put off by her extremist views, but also by her scary, sociopathic personality.
So, it was quite a surprise to see it played out last night on those green and yellow lines at the bottom of the CNN screen. I was amazed to see the yellow (women's) line up in the positive every time Biden spoke, and down in the negative every time Palin spoke. I think Palin is particularly offputting to women, because they can see right through her shallow, fake personality.
Quick Thought on the VP Debate
Funny that's more than she had.
How bout her UHHHH!!! How Bout Her UUUUUHHHH!!!! Boy can i pick'em UHHHH!!!
The Maverick actually wants you to believe she is capable of PRESIDENT of the UNITED STATES of AMERICA.
WTF!?!? I MEAN WTF!? ARE YOU FACKING KIDDING MEEEE???????? ALLSOOO!!!
Gov. Palin as PRESIDENT of the UNITED STATES of AMERICA. as Biden said THAT IS, THE BRIDGE TO NOWEHERE...
AND... Who the hell is she winking at. The party of morals is now pandering to the PORNO VOTE....LMAO!!!!!!
It was noted in a prior link but what astounded me was that Palin did not know what the Achilles heel reference meant. A fundamentalist Christian education is very narrow and does not include history or literature that is not in the bible. Our societies emphasis on technical education is producing a people who do not know what the emperor's new clothes references and this is what we have been experiencing for far too long. There is no limit to the rabid ignorance and emotional manipulation of the right wing in this country.
Login or Register to post comments.