VP Debate: McCain's Healthcare Plan is the real "Bridge to Nowhere"
By Nicole Belle Thursday Oct 02, 2008 1:40pm
Joe Biden scoffs at Sarah Palin's assertion that John McCain's plan to give every family a $5,000 tax credit to pay for healthcare will actually be adequate and shows how the numbers just make no sense at all.
Gwen, I don't know where to start. We don't call a redistribution in my neighborhood Scranton, Claymont, Wilmington, the places I grew up, to give the fair to say that not giving Exxon Mobil another $4 billion tax cut this year as John calls for and giving it to middle class people to be able to pay to get their kids to college, we don't call that redistribution. We call that fairness number one. Number two fact, 95 percent of the small businesses in America, their owners make less than $250,000 a year. They would not get one single solitary penny increase in taxes, those small businesses.
Now, with regard to the -- to the health care plan, you know, it's with one hand you giveth, the other you take it. You know how Barack Obama -- excuse me, do you know how John McCain pays for his $5,000 tax credit you're going to get, a family will get?
He taxes as income every one of you out there, every one of you listening who has a health care plan through your employer. That's how he raises $3.6 trillion, on your -- taxing your health care benefit to give you a $5,000 plan, which his Web site points out will go straight to the insurance company.
And then you're going to have to replace a $12,000 -- that's the average cost of the plan you get through your employer -- it costs $12,000. You're going to have to pay -- replace a $12,000 plan, because 20 million of you are going to be dropped. Twenty million of you will be dropped.
So you're going to have to place -- replace a $12,000 plan with a $5,000 check you just give to the insurance company. I call that the "Ultimate Bridge to Nowhere."
Actually, I'm curious how even McCain/Palin can claim that $5,000 could cover anyone adequately. God forbid you have a pre-existing condition. $5,000 wouldn't even cover my family for half a year.
The Obama campaign's Rapid Response department issued the following fact check on McCain's healthcare plan:
Tonight Sarah Palin said: "[John McCain] he has a good health care plan that is detailed. I want to give you a couple details on that. He is proposing a five billion dollar tax credit for families so they can get out there and purchase their own health care coverage 5,000 tax credit, that is budget neutral. That doesn't cost the government anything as opposed to Barack Obama's plan to mandate health care coverage and have this universal government-run program, and unless you are pleased with the way that the Federal Government has been running anything lately, I don't think that is going to be real pleasing for Americans to consider health care being taken over by the Feds. But a $5,000 health care credit through our income tax, that's budget neutral, that's going to help, and he also wants to erase those artificial lines between states so that through competition, we can cross state lines, and if there is a better plan offered somewhere else, we would be able to purchase that. So affordability and accessibility will be the keys there with that $5,000 tax credit also being offered." [Vice Presidential Debate, 10/2/08]
The Facts: McCain's health care plan would raise taxes on middle class families. Obama's plan is not government run and would maintain the existing system.
FACT: MCCAIN WOULD RAISE HEALTH CARE TAXES ON MIDDLE CLASS FAMILIES AND CAUSE 20 MILLION TO LOSE THEIR HEALTH CARE THROUGH THEIR EMPLOYERS
· McCain's Campaign "Acknowledged" That His Health Care Plan "Would Have The Effect Of Increasing Tax Payments For Some Workers." "Though Senator John McCain has promised to not raise taxes, his campaign acknowledged Wednesday that the health plan he outlined this week would have the effect of increasing tax payments for some workers, primarily those with high incomes and expensive health plans. ... Douglas Holtz-Eakin said in an interview that for some, Mr. McCain's health care tax credits would not be large enough to compensate for his proposal to eliminate the tax breaks afforded to workers with employer-provided health benefits." [New York Times, 5/1/08 ]
· 20 Million Americans Would Lose Employment-Based Health Insurance Under The McCain Plan. "A study coming out Tuesday from scholars at Columbia, Harvard, Purdue and Michigan projects that 20 million Americans who have employment-based health insurance would lose it under the McCain plan. ... According to the study: 'The McCain plan will force millions of Americans into the weakest segment of the private insurance system - the nongroup market - where cost-sharing is high, covered services are limited and people will lose access to benefits they have now.' The net effect of the plan, the study said, 'almost certainly will be to increase family costs for medical care.'" [Herbert, New York Times, 9/16/08 ]
· Because McCain's Health Care Tax Credit Is Indexed To "Regular Inflation," Which Is Lower Than Annual Increase In Health Care Costs, After Four Years "The Number Of Uninsured Would... Creep Upward." "Eliminating the tax exclusion, they wrote, 'would greatly reduce the number of people who obtain health insurance through their employers.' They put that figure at 20 million, and calculated that it would be offset at first by the 21 million who would be able to afford individual coverage using Mr. McCain's tax credits. Within a few years, however, the trend would reverse, the study asserts. That is because, according to Mr. Holtz-Eakin, the McCain health care tax credits would be indexed to 'regular inflation,' presumably the Consumer Price Index, which is typically lower than annual increases in health care costs. Unless costs can be substantially reined in, the credits would therefore enable fewer people to afford coverage each year, leading to an eventual rise in the number of uninsured. ... The estimates in Health Affairs are comparable to those made in July by the Urban Institute and Brookings Institution, which projected that 1 million people would gain coverage after one year under Mr. McCain's plan, that almost 5 million people would gain coverage after four years, and that the number of uninsured would then creep upward." [New York Times, 9/16/08 ]
· Wall Street Journal: McCain Plan Would "Allow Health-Insurance Companies to Escape State Regulations They Don't Like." "Sen. McCain also would let people buy health insurance across state lines. That would allow health-insurance companies to escape state regulations they don't like, such as rules allowing for appeals when companies deny coverage and rules requiring insurers to cover people with various conditions or to cover particular types of treatments. The companies would likely gravitate to the states with the regulations they most favored. The result is that health-insurance companies would all operate out of states with few regulations, effectively stripping state rules built over decades, [Elizabeth] Edwards said. 'We can expect all our health-care policies to be written in states where little is required of them.'" [Wall Street Journal , 4/19/08]
· Commonwealth Fund Study: McCain's Plan Would Cost $185 Billion In The First Year While Obama's Plan Would Cost $86 Billion in the first year. According to a report by the Commonwealth Fund, "McCain's plan would reduce the number of uninsured Americans by 1.3 million over the coming decade at a total cost of $1.3 billion. Obama's plan would reduce the ranks of the uninsured by 34 million at a cost of $1.63 billion. During the first year of implementation, McCain's proposed plan would dent the federal budget to the tune of $185 billion, while Obama's plan would require $86 billion." [Washington Post, 10/2/08 ]
FACT: OBAMA'S PLAN IS NOT GOVERNMENT RUN
· Washington Post: McCain Repeats "Canard" That Obama's Health Care Plan Would Turn The System Over To The Federal Government. "John McCain raised an old Republican canard, repeated often in the primaries, when he claimed that Obama's health care plan would eventually turn the health care system over to the federal government. The Illinois senator proposes helping individuals purchase health insurance through a system of subsidies and tax credits. He is also in favor of mandatory health insurance for children. But he is not advocating a state-run health system, such as the one that exists in Britain and some European countries. Under the Obama plan, individuals will still be free to choose between different types of health insurance, and will be able to choose their own doctors." [Washington Post Fact Check, 9/26/08 ]
· Fact Check.org: "Obama's Plan Wouldn't 'Force' Families Into A 'Government Run Health Care System.'" "Furthermore, Obama's plan wouldn't 'force' families into a 'government-run health care system.' His plan mandates that children have coverage; there's no mandate for adults. People can keep the health insurance they have now or chose from private plans, or opt for a new public plan that will offer coverage similar to what members of Congress have. Obama would also expand Medicaid and the State Children's Health Insurance Program. His plan certainly expands government-offered insurance - and McCain's doesn't - but it's not a solely government-run plan, as McCain implied. And if Obama's public plan turns out to be similar to what federal employees have, as he says it would be, we're not sure how "a bureaucrat" would stand 'between you and your doctor.'" [Factcheck.org, 9/5/08 ]
· Joe Klein: When McCain Says Obama Favors A "Government-Run Health-Care System, He's Not Telling The Truth." Joe Klein at Time wrote, "When McCain says, for example, that Barack Obama favors a government-run health-care system, he's not telling the truth - Obama wants a market-based system subsidized by the government..." [Time, 9/17/08 ]
· McCain Has Repeatedly Suggested That His Democratic Rivals Are Proposing A Nationalized Health Care System And That Suggestion Is "Incorrect." The New York Times wrote, "Senator John McCain has been repeatedly suggesting that his Democratic rivals are proposing a single-payer, or even a nationalized health care system along the lines of those in countries like Canada and Britain. The suggestion is incorrect. While both Senator Barack Obama of Illinois and Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton of New York are calling for universal health care and an expanded role for government, they stop well short of calling for a single-payer plan." [New York Times, 5/3/08 ]
FACT: OBAMA'S PLAN WOULD MAINTAIN THE EXISTING PRIVATE SYSTEM
· Obama's Plan Would Maintain The Existing Private System And Give Consumers The Option Of Buying Insurance From The Federal Government Along The Lines Of Medicare. Obama "would maintain the existing private system, providing government subsidies or tax credits to help the low-income uninsured afford premiums." Obama would also "give consumers a new option to buy insurance from the federal government, with policies along the lines of Medicare." [New York Times, 5/3/08 ]
· Commonwealth Fund Study: Obama's Plan Has The Best Chance Of Making Health Care More Affordable, Accessible, Efficient And Higher In Quality; McCain's Plan Would Only Cover 2 Million Of the Projected 67 Million Uninsured While Obama's Plan Would Cover 34 Million. "An analysis of the two starkly different approaches to reforming the U.S. health care system offered by John McCain and Barack Obama suggests Obama's plan has the best chance of making health care more affordable, accessible, efficient and higher in quality. The report, released on Thursday by the Commonwealth Fund, sized up the presidential candidates' plans for dealing with a health care system which has left nearly 46 million people uninsured and many more underinsured." [Reuters, 10/2/08 ]
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This needs to be a commercial.
This issue is the deal breaker for the McCain campaign.
Democrats should hammer about deregulation, the GOP plan to dregulate healtcare and then point to the Wall Street crisis.
Game over.
New polls today
Gallup Obama by 7
Ras Obama by 7
Loved how Biden popped the crowd.
The whole health care debate needs to really get serious. I work at a clinic and have had a pre existing condition. I see people everyday who go without insurance because they have to not because they choose to. I see seniors who struggle with costs. I see people with the HSA plans who think they're a joke. I see young people without insurance. God forbid they get into an accident, hurt themselves, get sick. My son's friend had an appendicitis attack right out of college. Her college was paid for by her grandparents but the hospital bill without insurance was at the $50000 mark. It was brought down substantially because in MN we make provisions for cases like this when we can. She had waited however until it was a very serious case-driving the hospitalization costs up and almost killer her.
McCain has no idea how much, or how to deal with health care because he's never lived the life. And Palin doesn't understand the issue.
It is super silly for McCain to act like a $5000 tax credit will do anything for people. But the real tragedy of all of this is that BOTH of these candidates think they 'own our money', they just have different plans on how to spend it.
I can't believe people here keep saying more regulation is the answer, but there are already laws against fraud and theft. All we need is for the 'Justice dept' to do their job and put these criminals in jail.
You are being duped again because even if you change all the regulations, but do NOT hold people accountable, it will do NOTHING. Stop being tricked.
If you haven't figgered it out by now, "facts" don't matter.
Issues don't matter.
PERSONALITY matters.
That's IT. Period.
Would you go to church with this bint?
Millions would be thrilled to do so.
Be very afraid...
If she's still regarded as a 'serious' candidate, it means the SCUM have decided that "Yes, the People are tooo stupid to discern her flaws..."
people think that they are going to get a $5000 check each year and they will pick out their insurance company. they think they will have an option and then they will keep the money. they STILL plan to do without insurance, because they don't have insurance now & go to clinics and the ER. this is the appeal on the street to the poor.
Great points on the facts. 'Wish facts mattered in a debate. Bush lost all his debates on the facts. But dadGUM! He was folksey! He's wunna US! A real 'MERICAN! Two Bush terms.
Yeah, like 7 says.
There were a lot of brilliant things Biden did last night. However, this part was the greatest. What is more, is the quip, "Bridge to Nowhere" caught Sarah Palin off guard.
I wish he would have been able to ask her "why government-run health care has been good enough for McCain his whole adult life, but not good enough for the citizens of the country?"
If I hear 'you betcha' one more time....
Got to give it up for Biden he did an excellent job of portraying McCain's health care reform's inequities in a way that the average American can wrap their minds around....Palin's talking points were squashed because it came from a mind that didn't study McCain's health care package. It was just a parroted memorized skit that added a lame wink or two.....
Bail out bill just passed.
263-171 vote
I wish Biden really would've called them out on the "government run healthcare".
Government run healthcare is so bad that friggin McSame has been using it forever: First Veterans care, then Congressional health care, and now Medicare/Medicaid.
He should've taken off the kid gloves last night and let her have it. Esp. with her plea about "people want corruption out of the system" coming from Ms. Troopergate and all the BS trying to derail the case. Nice try chica.
Scott @ 9:
I know people are stupid but you'll never convince me that shrub won anything. He had both those elections handed to him by his criminal buddies in the court system and his criminal reslug buddies working on the election.
So yes, he had two terms but he didn't win either one of them.
If moosepatty and psychogeezer win it will be for the same criminal reason.
These are partial clipping from Newspapers around the world. Here is a consensus of what they say and feel.
woody, tokin librul @ 7:
I'll never cease to be amazed by the willingness of so many people to vote against their own best interests because they imagine that they could go to church with the candidate they support, casting aside all other important issues. I mean, GOOD DOG, don't these people understand that in this case they can have their cake and eat it, too??? Their freedom of religion is protected (and separate!), they can go to whatever church they want, they can even join Flailin' Palin's snake-handling cult for all I care and STILL, at the end of the day, vote rationally on matters regarding taxes, the economy, etc, etc! I just don't understand it at all, but then again I am not particularly religious, so I probably never will.
The bailout is on its way to Shrub. And people don't trust it. Here is the current MSNBC polling:
How confident are you that the financial bailout package approved by Congress will ease the economic crisis? * 5879 responses
Very. All that money will ease the credit crunch and that will help the overall economy.
4.6%
Fairly. It seems that it should work, but there are many questions.
11%
Somewhat. This addresses one part of the crisis, but it doesn't address other aspects.
27%
Not at all. This will help Wall Street, but it isn't going to do anything for the rest of us.
58%
Not a scientific survey. Click to learn more. Results may not total 100% due to
There are good plans and bad plans, but for a decent one:
Family of four health insurance is roughly $15,000.
Company pays about 66% of the premiums.
Under a group plan (provided by company) all are covered regardless of pre-existing conditions. This is the only reason my wife is still alive.
Impossible for older, sicker, pre-existing condition people to buy individual health insurance. IMPOSSIBLE. Ins. companies will not cover sick people on individual plans. I think McCain simply does not know this. Nor does he know how much a family Ins. plan costs, or he wouldn't throw out a loser like $5k tax credit. The prick has been sucking the government teat for health insurance since the day he was born in a Naval hospital in Panama. He has ZERO experience as a normal citizen.
At this early point in the debate I was shaking like a leaf. I so wanted Biden to do well but do well in a great, dignified way. Wingers like to talk about Palin exceeding her low expectations, but I had higher expectations for Biden and he exceeded them.
Not only did he smack down the charge Palin lobbed v. Obama, he educated everyone on the healthcare plan that McCain proposes and why it's a very very bad idea. another ripoff touted as a good thing for joe sixpack. He did laid it all out and in plain language. Biden really got the alley oop slam dunk on this one.
way to go Joe.
My empolyer pays part of the health insurance for my daughter and I, and I still pay $9,000 a year out of pocket for it. I cant' even afford to insure my husband. It would have been almost double to do so. He's a full time student and has a policy through school that is mostly to guard against catastrophe.
I guarantee if Mcscary wins and this "health care plan" actually goes into effect, my empolyer would stop providing insurance in a heart beat. Gone, just like that. Try finding decent insurance, that will take you, for $5,000. that's a total joke.
Nada @ 17:
Yeah, seriously. The notion that we had to put up with that poo-flinging primate and his gang of goat-horned handlers for 8 years because the majority of Americans "voted for his folksiness" is just one of many lies we had crammed up our bums. Americans are busy, stressed out, and overstimulated by bad tv and electronic gadgets, but there weren't enough of us that were quite stupid enough to put Bush in office (twice) based on that garbage. Bushco stole two elections; the flimsy reasons for his fictitious victories, including "Ah'd lahk t' drink a beer with dat boy George!", were tossed to us like so many poker chips, after which we were essentially told to like it or lump it.
Bonkers @ 19:
Your post reminds me of the Agnostic Dyslectic Insomniac who laid in bed all night wondering whether or not there was a Dog.
The problem is that Obama's plan still does not fix the overall problem. Sure it gets a few more people on the medical insurance, but the cost of the healthcare in this country would still be way more per capita than every other industrialized country.
We need to get the HMOs out of the system and stop them from being the middlemen collecting a big fat profit...
The problem is that Obama's plan still does not fix the overall problem. Sure it gets a few more people on medical insurance, but the cost of the healthcare in this country would still be way more per capita than every other industrialized country.
We need to get the HMOs out of the system and stop them from being the middlemen collecting a big fat profit...
I hope people know, Palin is loved in Alaska because she doubled the oil dividend check every citizen of the state gets from $1,600.00 annually to $3,269.00. She did this by doubling the money big oil has to pay to Alaska. Alaska has a population of 683,000 people and 900,00 caribou There is no state sales tax, property or income tax in Alaska. What challenge has she ever had to faced as the chief executive of Alaska? Big Oil pays for everything in Alaska so of course drill baby drill is the mantra.Palin is loved in Alaska because she doubled the oil dividend check every citizen of the state gets from $1,600.00 annually to $3,269.00. She did this by doubling the money big oil has to pay to Alaska. Alaska has a population of 683,000 people and 900,00 caribou There is no state sales tax, property or income tax in Alaska. What challenge has she ever had to faced as the chief executive of Alaska? Big Oil pays for everything in Alaska so of course drill baby drill is the mantra.
CPA needed here
My understanding is that a tax deduction is the sum substracted from your taxable income and your tax is then calculated.
A tax credit is the sum deducted from the calculated tax you owe. If you make so little that you don't owe any tax, you don't get a tax credit.
☺☻Bangkok Bob☻☺ @ 25:
LOLz!
(copied and pasted in my mind. Thanks for that!)
#18
I worry about repercussions from the banking fallout that have affected other countries----
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/19/business/worldbusiness/19kfw.html
☺☻Bangkok Bob☻☺ @ 18:
Yep, Bangkok Bob. That sums up how the world thinks about America. Too bad the GOP is wrapped up in American Exceptionalism that they don't see the seeds of discontent overseas.
Thank you for posting that. People need to open their eyes.
When Barack Obama announced Joe Biden as his running mate, he regained my vote, which he had lost with his FISA vote. There's no way in hell I'd vote for McPain, but after that outrageous vote, I just wasn't going to vote at all.
Watching Biden last night, I had the same reaction as I did while watching Obama during his first debate: here is an intelligent person with a strong command of facts and a record of supporting intelligent policies that are in the best interest of the country. Here is a person who is stating facts and drawing lines between Republican policies and their consequences, while the opponent is dissembling. I so look forward to having two intelligent people at the helm, and Biden's comment about Cheney... wow.
I couldn't believe the nonsense I heard on NPR and the BBC last night. People were saying that Palin was honest and spoke to them, while Biden talked "down" to them. The reporters didn't ask about their qualifications. One guy said that 9 out of 10 economists believe that Barack Obama's economic plan will send the economy into a nosedive. Oh, the irony.
I only wish Biden had mentioned Palin leaving Wasilla $20 million in debt. Wah, silly!
palin goes nukyoolar http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fx2v_BX49fI
did you guys say goodbye to america today? The Fed will own everything in a few hours and your money is well on it's way to total annihilation. Goodbye U.S.A. I'll miss you. You used to be about individual freedom.. now individuals have to ask permission to do anything ... goodbye U.S.A. I'll miss you.
i thought Joe was great last night. wanna know why?
because i could understand what the fuck he was saying.
Please forgive if this gets posted several times. Is this comment blocked?.... [No. It's stuck in the blasted spam filter. I approved the first one one about 3 minutes after you posted it. It should be up thead. The 2nd one I deleted, and this one I'm keeping so I can write you this note--Sitemonitor]
#18 & #31
I worry about repercussions from the US banking industry that affected other countries...
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/19/business/worldbusiness/19kfw.html
Correction:
The Very Bitter Ceci Hussein @ 31:
Yep, Bangkok Bob. That sums up how the world thinks about America. Too bad the GOP is sowrapped up in American Exceptionalism they don't see the seeds of discontent overseas.
[*Still cries for an edit button*]
kep@13 Get used to it.
The combination of dirty tricks and racism will clear the path for pResident Sarah "End Times" Palin.
I hope that the liquor industry appreciates all the business that we shit-scared lefties are giving them.
"President Palin! You don't really mean to burn all the non-christians at the stake?"
"You betcha I do!" (wink wink)
Tim @ 35:
Fascists! Just look it up everyone who thinks I'm being hyperbolic.
Bridge to the Future, Bifrost Bridge, Bridge to no where,
Does anyone even play bridge or sing Brooklyn Bridge anymore?
Raging Bull McCain is not going to like Biden anymore.
39 miss_kitty Says: Tim @ 35:
Fascists! Just look it up everyone who thinks I’m being hyperbolic.
_____________________________________________________________
I think they have antacids for that.
Show your support, if you can, by donating to the Obama-Biden campaign. We need to turn shows points into ads. We need to be prepared for the sh**-flinging that is going to be the McCain campaign for the next month.
Donate, of course, only if you can.
http://www.barackobama.com/index.php
I have to say that the crowd did a good job of being quiet until Biden said 'Ultimate Bridge to Nowhere', then you had about the same reaction Aasif Mandhvi got on his first appearance on The Daily Show when he said 'It a lot like your 9/11: tough day...great opportunity'
My problem with the answer was Biden refering to the cost of running the program, or the benefits derived therefrom?
Oooh. Yaaah. Soompthin about the way she talks. It reminds me of that movie Fargo, ya know.
Tim @ 35:
i bade farewell to the America I knew and loved when the morons 'elected' Raygun.
the last almost 30 years have just been a long, slow wake.
the "bail-out" is just another slab of ice off the corpse and on the beer.
25 ☺☻Bangkok Bob
Your post reminds me of the Agnostic Dyslectic Insomniac who laid in bed all night wondering whether or not there was a Dog.
_____________________________________________________________________
Well, if he opened his eyes and checked out his wife he'd have his proof
When she's doing it doggy-style.
47 MarinatedInSmog Says: Oooh. Yaaah. Soompthin about the way she talks.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XDTi_La94Uo
He shoots! He scores!
(Site-Monitor: What DOESN'T go through the spam filter, please? I noticed one post of mine that was bounced about 4 times the other day. I don't wanna offend the Great Spam-Filter God (GSFG), so help us out?)
[Your guess is as good as mine. Sometimes it's obvious, (drug names, URLs) other times there seems to be no rhyme or reason, since the system that filters spam doesn't operate with transparency. The best help I can offer you is in the form of info -- the new site won't have a spam filter. Or a moderation queue, either-Sitemonitor]
19 Bonkers Says: woody, tokin librul @ 7:
If you haven’t figgered it out by now, “facts” don’t matter.
Issues don’t matter.
PERSONALITY matters.
That’s IT. Period.
Would you go to church with this bint?
Millions would be thrilled to do so.
Be very afraid…
If she’s still regarded as a ’serious’ candidate, it means the SCUM have decided that “Yes, the People are tooo stupid to discern her flaws…”
I’ll never cease to be amazed by the willingness of so many people to vote against their own best interests because they imagine that they could go to church with the candidate they support, casting aside all other important issues. I mean, GOOD DOG, don’t these people understand that in this case they can have their cake and eat it, too??? Their freedom of religion is protected (and separate!), they can go to whatever church they want, they can even join Flailin’ Palin’s snake-handling cult for all I care and STILL, at the end of the day, vote rationally on matters regarding taxes, the economy, etc, etc! I just don’t understand it at all, but then again I am not particularly religious, so I probably never will.
--------
These religious extremists have resigned themselves to the fact that this world is fleeting and their reward will be in heaven. I'm not sure if that explains things better to you and me, but it is what they believe.
Say it ain't so, Joe, there you go again pointing backwards again. You preferenced your whole comment with the Bush administration. Now doggone it, let's look ahead and tell Americans what we have to plan to do for them in the future. You mentioned education and I'm glad you did. I know education you are passionate about with your wife being a teacher for 30 years, and god bless her. Her reward is in heaven, right? I say, too, with education, America needs to be putting a lot more focus on that and our schools have got to be really ramped up in terms of the funding that they are deserving.
She butchers the english language almost as much as W.
23 Fanon Says: My empolyer pays part of the health insurance for my daughter and I, and I still pay $9,000 a year out of pocket for it. I cant’ even afford to insure my husband. It would have been almost double to do so. He’s a full time student and has a policy through school that is mostly to guard against catastrophe.
I guarantee if Mcscary wins and this “health care plan” actually goes into effect, my empolyer would stop providing insurance in a heart beat. Gone, just like that. Try finding decent insurance, that will take you, for $5,000. that’s a total joke.
--------
In order to remain competitive we cover our employees 100% and their spouses and dependents 75%, with a low $250 deductible PPO. We offer a $-0- deductible HMO for those who would rather have a different plan. Our costs are unbelievable, (one of our biggest expenses) and increase 15%-20% each year. We also have a cancer survivor on our plan (known to us when we hired her, but we don't discriminate). For McCain to tax health care benefits is outrageous. Owners of small business do not receive a 100% deduction for health benefits now, so that is already essentially a tax. Taxes should be on "earned income" not benefits! A very stupid plan indeed.
I have a new idea for McCain.
McCain/Quayle...It can't be any worse right?
51 Min Says: He shoots! He scores!
____________________________________
With her?
29 ronhohn Says: CPA needed here
My understanding is that a tax deduction is the sum substracted from your taxable income and your tax is then calculated.
A tax credit is the sum deducted from the calculated tax you owe. If you make so little that you don’t owe any tax, you don’t get a tax credit.
-----------
Essentially correct.
Sarah Palin does not speak COHERENTLY
"Education credit in American has been in some sense in some of our states just accepted to be a little bit lax and we have got to increase the standards. No Child Left Behind was implemented. It's not doing the job though. We need flexibility in No Child Left Behind. We need to put more of an emphasis on the profession of teaching. We need to make sure that education in either one of our agendas, I think, absolute top of the line. My kids as public school participants right now, it's near and dear to my heart. I'm very, very concerned about where we're going with education and we have got to ramp it up and put more attention in that arena."
What I don't understand is why people are expected to select or accept what they will not be covered for. Does anyone want to gamble upon a forced choice of what disease or accdent they can afford in this time of skyrocketing medical costs? You discover that you have a high genetic probability for a disease or have had cancer and know that you can't get coverage because no one will insure you.
For-profit health insurers only want to insure those who will not use the coverage. Denying coverage is not fraud if there are conceivable exclusions on the polity. How can insurance company CEOs mantain multiple hundred million dollar annual incomes if the company is expected to cover your health. They do it by not covering you. When your claim for coverage comes in to their claim handler, their job is to fnd out why you are not covered.
It's the same expectation that came with the defaults on sub-prime loans when the nterest rates shot up. You chould have read the policy. It's not the duty of the providers to give you what you want, need and can afford. Their only job is to make money by gettng you to sign the contract. Whether you end up either bankrupt or dying while waiting for the "experimental" treatment to be approved is not their duty.
Health care should be a right as it is in most industrialised countries. People should not be afraid to seek medical care before time compounds and complcates the condition. This is how health care costs can be reduced. Denial of necessary health care should not be profitable.
58 CMINCA Says: 29 ronhohn Says: CPA needed here
My understanding is that a tax deduction is the sum substracted from your taxable income and your tax is then calculated.
A tax credit is the sum deducted from the calculated tax you owe. If you make so little that you don’t owe any tax, you don’t get a tax credit.
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Essentially correct.
I submitted too soon.
However, there are credits, such as the Earned Income Credit, that allow you to pay negative tax, which is why you receive a refund. I'm not clear as to how McCain's credit will work, but I wouldn't hold my breath for it to work as the Earned Income Credit does. It will most likely be a use it or lose it credit, where you either have the net income to absorb the credit or you lose it.
The 'bridge to no where' was almost a 'you're no John Kennedy' moment.
But Joe is not the greatest communicator. His sentences are sometimes too convoluted to parse easily. There were slam dunk opportunities that he did not take advantage of. The media could spin a draw basically because he was too generous to her. He should have swallowed her whole and spit her out.
Regarding healthcare cost one bill that was passed a few years ago was the
drug billed passed by a republican majority legislative branch.
the republican bill actually prohibits Medicare from offering a drug plan
negotiating with the pharmaceutical industry.
remember the republican party talks free market and darwinian capitalism
this isn't free market. this bill took is very expensive and takes away
free market bidding. the Veteran's Administration is able to bid on drugs
they often pay up to 50% lower cost than medicare.
this was done by BUSH to help the pharmaceutical industry and insurance
industry. on a cynical note i also felt it was to sabotage a safety net program. drug cost increase approximately 10% a yr.
35 Tim Says: did you guys say goodbye to america today? The Fed will own everything in a few hours and your money is well on it’s way to total annihilation. Goodbye U.S.A. I’ll miss you. You used to be about individual freedom.. now individuals have to ask permission to do anything … goodbye U.S.A. I’ll miss you.
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While I was in favor of a reasonable, well thought out and graduated rescue plan, the plan that passed is a far cry from that. It is filled with special interest pork to make it palatable to those who originally voted against it. I'm ashamed that Obama voted for it.
ldzppln @ 59:
Is our Puck Bunnies learning?
46 ysbaddaden Says: My problem with the answer was Biden refering to the cost of running the program, or the benefits derived therefrom?
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The fact that it wasn't a meaningful program at all. A tax credit is not a healthcare program.
this is a good interview regarding proposed healthcare plans by mccain
and obama. it summarizes an article the was published in the NE journal
of medicine. there is a one page summary/read and/or you can listen
to the interview on npr.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=93975730
Palin really is the ultimate dumb goy.
McCaint's healthcare program is indeed just another big bridge to nowhere but the biggest bridge of them all is?
like maybe the bailout?
I'm not gonna let Biden fool me...I know better, it's either one or the other...bailout or heathcare program...cant have both! (not enough money.)
...not to mention the fact that we "can't has" none of the above unless we stop the multi trillion dollar pentagon offensive/defence budget and recall our imperial troops from across the globe.
I think Biden wiped the floor with Palin but, the point is moot, ...the bailout passed...goodbye 401-k, goodbye healthcare...and goodbye America.
"A knee-jerk selling effort has followed the announcement that the House of Representatives approved the amended asset purchase plan. That reaction erased more than 300 points from the Dow Jones Industrial Average."
From Yahoo! Finance
Haven't posted here in ages....
The secret to McC's health insurance plan is that the 5K is enough money -- for a HIGH HIGH HIGH deductible, low cost plan bought out of state somewhere. So you're 5K check is sent directly to some fly-by-night insurer supervised by a sate with lax rules (remember, regulation is the enemy) -- and the plan covers: NOTHING. You pay huge deductibles, high out of pockets, cover all the drugs you can eat or inject, you get no well care, no sick care, but the premiums are cheap. This is the market solution -- make the price high enough and the demand goes down. Health care demand, it turns out, is indeed elastic. With the current downturn, people are spending less on health care just like they are on gas. So we're sicker and we can't get to work, but we're spending less. Presto magico, the market has fixed the problem....
58 CMINCA Said,
My understanding is that a tax deduction is the sum substracted from your taxable income and your tax is then calculated.
I say: (a couple of years ago) I looked up taxable income in the IRS codebook...and found out I dont have any!!!
I scoff at both plans, the government can barely help itself now, what money do people think we have a national health care plan?
Don't get me wrong, great idea but the nation is a little broke right now, has been for years.
The way I figure my insurance under McCain's plan it would cost me $2200. Assuming I could get coverage for my 'pre-existing' conditions' which I know I could not. Like Newt Gingrich, John McCain has suckled at the public teat his entire life and has no clue what real life is.
I don't think the format of the debate really helped Palin or is anything to sweat. First off, I don't by the "undecided" claims that gave her the debate. I've been undecided this late in the game too many times myself and, in this particular instance, Palin brought no substance. That much was very clear. To all who saw the Couric interviews, who then watched her spit out talking points that weren't even in relation to questions asked, while she actually stated she wouldn't be asking questions, she lost.
How do you measure that damage-wise? I'd say by looking at the people who still remain undecided. If the Couric interviews alone weren't enough to get one to support the the Obama/Biden ticket, the odds are that they just didn't care all that much about her. Thus, a tepid failure trumped as a victory for simply surviving without putting her foot in her mouth, or a miserable failure where she completely lost control, wasn't going to affect them. However, if she'd come out to show herself as a truly strong candidate with a grasp on things that could take it to the floor, such "undecideds" may have moved a bit more.
This wasn't a debate that Palin needed to survive in order to win. This was a debate where she absolutely had to impress people with knowledge to show she truly was on the ball. That didn't happen and, thus, any bump the McCain camp thought Palin was ever going to bring to them has now become an albatross around their neck. She didn't inspire. She simply didn't screw up as bad as her supporters feared she might or her detractors hoped she would. Those people, however, don't matter. The undecideds did who, from what has come out, seem pretty unimpressed with her performance.
That bridge to nowhere and follow-up discussion was excellent. However, I think Obama's health plan is every bit as much the sorry-assed joke as is McCain's. Trying to defend one above the other is like trying to defend a cat turd in preferrance to a dog turd. They're both shit, and neither one is healthcare. Calling it that is dishonest. They are nothing but massive welfare scams for a bunch of gangsters who will use the money to do nothing more than exercise 45 million or so more new opportunities to say, "Fuck you, it isn't covered. But thanks for your money, chumps". The insurance companies have already proven that they are undeserving of a seat at the table, and no amount of regulation will stifle their will to fraud and abuse. The profit motive assures that. Insurance is the most expensive conceivable way to go about delivering access to healthcare, so arguments about cost as the justification for insurance are disingenuous. To steal one of Obama's questions, what do they think we are, stupid?
If the candidates are not talking univeral healthcare, per any number of viable models, in the end, they're only talking shit. And, quite honestly, I'm getting tired of the insult.
It's time for another run of Sicko in the theaters of this nation. I'm sure it would be more widely attended than the first showing.
Obama and McCain both need to support HR 676.
I love how he looks over at Palin right at the end! That is hilarious.
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