Open Thread
By bluegal Monday Nov 23, 2009 8:30pm
The only possible explanation for book signees thinking Sarah Palin "upholds the Constitution," and right on topic, The Onion: "Area Man Passionate Defender of What He Imagines Constitution to Be."
Open Thread below...
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:(
;)
will..............
get............
through............
this...........
That pretty much captures Know Knothing Knation in a Knutshell. :)
But let's be fair. Defending what one thinks the Constitution says can easily be applied to people on our side as well. (We're just not quite as stupid.)
I was trying to edit my comment to add that, but the system won't let me.
Actually, though, I think that's a tad ridiculous. I haven't heard anyone on our side claim that the Constitution "guarantees" health care. Instead, I hear people utter knee-jerk resistance whenever conservatives claim that the Constitution delegates only a limited set of powers to the federal government, and that those powers have largely been abused. I agree.
1) You can't edit your comment after someone else has commented on it .. that's why the system wouldn't let you edit.
2) Preamble to the US Constitution:
The "promote the general welfare" clause is often cited as Constitutional justification for Universal Health Care.
At the very least, government-assured Universal Health Care is certainly not inconsistent with the US Constitution.
The Preamble states the purpose of the Constitution. It does not specifically delegate any powers.
Now, there is a clause that delegates the power to do something in the general welfare. Know what it is? :)
On the editing, Andy K must have submitted his comment the very moment I tried to save my edits. ;)
than I care to admit! :P
Sorry!
I clicked "Submit" too soon. I went to edit, but by the time I had finished typing, it was too late. :)
I was going to comment on the "daughter" quote when I read your comment, so I replied instead of...
Schoolhouse Rock really worked.
:D
Those founding fathers were good lyricists.
Schoolhouse Rock DID really work, much to the chagrin of conservatives at the time who opposed (do conservatives do anything other than oppose things?) to using rock and roll to teach children.
there is teach Tim, they don't want the rabble educated.
See link at bottom of comments from Augdir
You're smart enough to know that the Fourteenth Amendment opened up a lot of doors for the federal government.
I think the Fourteenth Amendment closed a lot of doors for the states.
The federal government gained only the power to enforce violations of the Fourteenth.
Barron v. Baltimore and all that stuff, which I see as a growth of the power of the federal government. Maybe it's a glass half empty/half full difference in perspective.
The other part of the Constitution that gives the federal government unspecified power is the Commerce Clause, no?
Under current doctrine, the Fourteenth Amendment incorporates some of the Bill of Rights onto the states. Which, as I said, is just closing doors states might rightly have had open to them before. (I would actually argue that they didn't, but my view isn't the law.) And the federal government can, indeed, legislate to prevent state violations of the Constitution through it's Fourteenth Amendment power.
But such does not actually delegate any positive powers. Just jurisdiction over the states it did not have before. It does not mean the federal government may, for instance, enact a national health care plan.
I'm not saying that the power to create a national health care plan is not there. But I'm not sure all of us progressives know where to look, or even that it needs to be Constitutionally justified.
On the Commerce Clause, you're correct that it has been interpreted so broadly that it practically allows the federal government to do whatever it wants, like outlaw smoking marijuana. (You mean that's a commerce clause power? Yeah. How so? I can't defend it with a straight face.)
To me, the Commerce Clause has been perniciously expanded beyond its meaning. If that's a "conservative" position, so be it.
As to the "general welfare," the federal government is, in fact, empowered explicitly, not to legislate generally, but only to tax and spend for the general welfare. :)
...on the Fourteenth Amendment. IIRC, you're the lawyer here- I'm definitely not.
I'm not so sure that the growth of federal power under the Commerce Clause isn't tied in directly with the expansion of interstate commerce that's evolved as modes of transportation have evolved. In the earlier days of the nation, not much was shipped more than a few counties over. Sure, there were dry goods, but, generally speaking, those would be things like textiles and grains, traveling by horse-drawn wagon or river barges. But then came steamships, the Erie Canal, railroads, canning, refrigeration, the automobile, interstate highways, airplanes....Now you can haul much more of many more types of things more quickly between states.
But you're right about the application of the Commerce Clause to medical marijuana. That's a real stretch.
Ehh, no need to submit to my legal credentials, at least not for just reading the Constitution to see what's in it. How it's been interpreted might be another matter. ;)
As for the Commerce Clause, there's nothing at all wrong with regulating the means and manners by which actual interstate commerce takes place. And as it expands, so shall the regulations. That much is a good thing. If only we had tougher regulations over over interstate economy.
In my opinion, the problem comes in when the government uses the Commerce Clause power as a general police power. The Bush Administration gets to raid medical marijuana offices in states that have legalized the use of marijuana as medicine? Under the power to regulate interstate commerce? Even if the state explicitly legalizes the practice only within its borders, and does not authorize transporting it across state lines? Under current doctrine, yeah.
Think about this: Let's say you grow your own food on your own farm. You don't sell it. You just grow it, and feed yourself and your family with it. Can the federal government seize your farm? Actually, yes. All it has to do is come up with some silly Commerce Clause argument (e.g. Andy K's farm has an impact on interstate commerce because if he sold his food across state lines, instead of keeping it and eating it himself, there would be more interstate commerce. Thus, under our Commerce Clause power, we'll make it illegal for Andy K to feed his family that way, and either seize his farm or force him to grow more and sell.).
I base my hypothetical on an actual New Deal era case! Unfortunately, a lot of the current doctrine I dislike comes out of the New Deal era. The Supreme Court was consistently striking new deal legislation down, holding that the federal government did not have the power to do what it was trying to. President Roosevelt needed an argument to convince the Court he was so empowered (or, as he tried, just pack the Court with justices more to his liking).
Was that argument a clever reading of the Clause? Did the lawyers go through the text with a fine-toothed comb? Nah. They convinced the Court that it should presume that the federal government has a power unless a citizen could prove otherwise.
The presumption of Constitutionality has come back to bite us in the ass. Hard. Especially when disingenuous conservatives (who love to invoke limits on powers when it comes to anything to do with the general welfare) successfully argue that all sorts of authoritarian, anti-gay, anti-anything-not-Christian laws deserve the same presumption.
your postings Karen ( so far lol )
Though I'm sure I'll enrage you at some point. :)
"Self-described American patriot Kyle Mortensen, 47, is a vehement defender of ideas he seems to think are enshrined in the U.S. Constitution and principles that brave men have fought and died for solely in his head."
ROFL! God bless The Onion. Whichever ones you would prefer! :P
Remember being saddened by this one though:
Bush or Gore 'A New Era Dawns'
Not very funny in retrospect or at the time - at least to me.
Bush Urges Nation to Be Quiet for a Minute While he Tries to Think.
But that's because I have a warped sense of humor. ;) The detail towards the end about the car alarm gets me every time!
Palin's supporters can't articulate why they support her, or which policies of hers they support.
The telling video of the neo-Know-Nothing Party is at
httP://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/11/23/pali...
That's why I call'em Know Knothing Knation.
They live in a fictional country. It exists only in their minds. And they think they're the only real Americans. The rest of us just don't belong.
Palin can't articulate which policies of hers she supports. How could anyone else?
Barry works out a new exit "strategy" for Afghanistan. Sanford faces 37 charges of ethics violations. The LAUSD is forced to institute a hiring freeze. Record 2.1 million cribs recalled. Minorities want the feds to show them the stimulus money, since the rich areas seem better-served by it. One hundred icebergs wind up in New Zealand. Will the Senate water down new emissions standards, too? The feds validate the tainted Chinese drywall issue. Barry says our economy has fundamental "strengths". A private insurer dicks a Canadian woman out of coverage over a Facebook photo. Pay no attention to the latest Three Mile Island leak. Global warming's worse than the last time we were @ Kyoto.
Cali's next budget is going to suck. L.A. says it's ok to build as many liquor stores and fast food joints as you want, but we put our foot down at pot dispensaries. First they want rights, now they want opinions. What's next? A fair trial? The times, they are-a-changin'...
Just when you think you've seen it all, huh? The insurance company not wanting the patient to get better so that she requires them to cover less medical bills.
As some who's been in the mental health system for years, I can tell you that she was doing exactly what she was supposed to do. Get treatment for major depression or bipolar, and you will routinely be asked if you are having fun, and if so, how! ;) The psychiatrists/therapists, etc. want you to socialize, to have hobbies, to get out of the house once in a while.
Dickish insurance company indeed.
I read the comments over at HuffPo on that one; something I rarely do. It was very clear there was a huge divide in perspectives. I assumed they pretty much follow a political divide, as does health care, but I can't say for sure.
I care because two people dear to me are severley depressed right now, and I know quite a bit about it.
without jobs, some without homes and healthcare or some other benefits that we all used to enjoy, not be depressed?
Some of the comments were just nasty. The kind I'd expect from teabaggers.
Example (ad libbed): If that lazy bitch is well enough to fight to keep her handout, she's well enough to go back to work. Why should we pay for her holiday?
You get the picture?? Heartless sorts.
nuff said
And I hope everyone has a most happy Evolution Day tomorrow! ;)
The covert JSOC program with Blackwater in Pakistan dates back to at least 2007, according to the military intelligence source. The current head of JSOC is Vice Adm. William McRaven, who took over the post from Gen. Stanley McChrystal, who headed JSOC from 2003 to 2008 before being named the top US commander in Afghanistan. Blackwater's presence in Pakistan is "not really visible, and that's why nobody has cracked down on it," said the source. Blackwater's operations in Pakistan, he said, are not done through State Department contracts or publicly identified Defense contracts. "It's Blackwater via JSOC, and it's a classified no-bid [contract] approved on a rolling basis." The main JSOC/Blackwater facility in Karachi, according to the source, is nondescript: three trailers with various generators, satellite phones and computer systems are used as a makeshift operations center. "It's a very rudimentary operation," says the source. "I would compare it to [CIA] outposts in Kurdistan or any of the Special Forces outposts. It's very bare bones, and that's the point."
http://www.thenation.com/doc/20091207/scahill
My friends there will be glad to know...
.. let's see how you do on this test. 24 out of 30 is considered a passing grade. Supposedly 96% of all High School Seniors FAILED this test ... AND if that's not bad enough, 50+% of all individuals over 50 did too.
http://games.toast.net/independence/
I got 28.
I had to make an educated guess on #22, though.
like you had time to take it!
And 29 of them were really easy.
And, yes, in elementary school (and CCD, too) I was the kid who always had his hand up first when the teacher asked questions.
:>)
I didn't always get picked to answer the questions first.
But there were a couple of times in 9th grade American Life (US History) when Mr. Webster was having problems with a certain student, so he had me continue teaching while he took Steve to the principal's office. I'd known the material since, like, 3rd grade. Hell, everyone in the class knew that I had a better handle on it than Mr. Webster, so they actually listened to me.
broke the rule about going with the first impression, thought over the give me liberty and gave it to the one life to live guy. The other was the liquor one. But I went through it very fast.
Heh, good ol' Patrick Henry. "Give me liberty or give me death!" he cried.
And then went home and tried to establish Christianity as the official religion of Virginia, only to be stopped in his tracks by James Madison, who convinced the legislature that public Christian schools was a bad idea.
Henry, remember, was an anti-federalist. He did not want the Constitution ratified.
;)
I'm glad it wasn't 'The Patrick Henry Test.' Now, if it were an acrostic...
:D
is too easy.
Heh, I got 29/30. I actually didn't know how many amendments had been officially approved by Congress but not ratified.
And, I have to say, Number 8 is in need of rewording:
Yeah, uh, the correct answer to that question is NONE. No amendment sets any minimum voting age. States are perfectly free to allow people under 18 to vote. They just can't deny the vote to anyone 18 or over.
Supposedly 96% of all High School Seniors FAILED this test
Doesn't surprise me, though.
i don't see it in the description.
the count for people between the ages 14-18 is 762
most people taking the quiz were over 55+ at 22k
The one that was the proof that I'd already taken the quiz- you reading this, lafingas?
always getting tossed out of class for knowing more than the teacher!
Here's an actual conversation between little tater tot me and my third grade teacher:
Me: Ms. L--, you had us read this chapter on Christopher Columbus. How do we know it's all true?
Teacher: What? What do you mean?
Me: I'm just wondering how we know it's true. It's so long ago.
Teacher: Because it says so in the book.
Me: Um, how does the book know, Ms. L--?
Teacher: Karen! The book doesn't know! It just says! Now, we have to move on, so stop raising your hand!
"Quit Thinking, goddammit!"
...would have us bring in two sources to prove our points. A few of us were more than happy to oblige. Mrs. Boerema had been around for a quite a while (she'd probably been teaching for 30 years when I got her in the fall of '74), and she knew when she had readers in her classes, and our class was full of 'em.
I guessed 12. I know that there were several articles proposed to the Bill of Rights that didn't actually make it into the Constitution, so I guessed high. :)
There have been a lot of amendments proposed that never got out of Congress- for instance, Madison proposed an amendment that read almost exactly like the Fourteenth Amendment that passed in the late 1860s, and Madison's was at the time, coincidentally, the proposed Fourteenth Amendment.
I guess there is an ambiguity there. I figured that they meant, "How many proposed amendments received the necessary 2/3 votes in Congress to move onto the states, but were not actually ratified by the states."
Of course, representatives and senators propose all sorts of amendments all the time, the flag-burning one being a perennial favorite of Know Knothing Knation.
In what year was the last amendment ratified?
SPOILER ALERT
The amendment that gave the franchise to 18-20-year olds passed in the late '60s or early '70s, and that was the 26th, BUT the most recent dates given were 1992 and 1961. Since I knew that the 26th had passed later than '61, well...
Now had this been a "fill in the blanks" test, I wouldn't have gotten a perfect score.
AMENDMENT XXVII
Originally proposed Sept. 25, 1789. Ratified May 7, 1992.
No law, varying the compensation for the services of the Senators and Representatives, shall take effect, until an election of representatives shall have intervened.
That was one that Madison thought should have been ratified with the Bill of Rights. It remained under consideration by the states for more than two centuries.
I mean, 203 years? Wow.
Karen. You're an attorney and can look this stuff up in your law books. I don't have law books and it would take me too long to research all of the questions. Besides that, I worked two jobs while going through high school.
That wouldn't have been in one of those things. But it's in history books, which are probably read less than law books.
I had to look into some real estate laws a few years back at the law library. I can't say I accomplished anything by doing so, but I saw a lot of law books.
...didn't mean to come across as condescending. Apologies.
But there isn't much in those things but decisions from appellate courts. Unratified legislation doesn't make it into a law library.
Though, I didn't actually have to look anything up. I just knew it.
And it's more than admirable to work while going through high school. I do think, however, that the questions involve basic information (except a few of them, which were odd . . . who cares where Eisenhower was born?) that should be taught to every American grade schooler.
What's really not fair is that you were probably not taught such basics. That's a large dereliction of educational duty, in my opinion.
The required answer: They came here to escape religious persecution.
But I was never able to learn just how or where they were persecuted.
And you mean our national language isn't Esperanto?
Oh, well. 28.
The Pilgrims were Puritans in England who felt they could not attend Anglican Churches in good conscience. At the time, it was illegal not to go to the Church of England, and be loyal to it. Sometimes they were simply fined for not attending on Sundays. If they tried to hold their own services, they were often arrested, and sometimes killed.
In retrospect, watching the teabaggers today, I'm sure they are pleased with themselves and the decsion to drive them out.
I thought Ike was born in Michigan.
Add: whoo man was I screwed up on that, It was Ford and he was transplanted as a little kid from Nebraska to Mi.
Won't forget that now.
I got 23, without cheating!! Not bad for a Cannuck that has never studied American history, and who does not know your amendments, or past presidents/vice presidents. Just the ones in my lifetime.
I'm ready to take on the tea baggers!! Woo hoo. Look out.
I got 24 but I had already read about Patrick Henry here so maybe 23. I'm also a Canuck.
After taking the test, and as the questions are not that tough, it's frightening that ANY American would fail!!!
A cursory glance at the news, now and then, ought to be enough to pass.
only got 27.
Missed #21, #23, and #28.
Someone made the observation that "In order to know just how dumb Palin is one has to be brighter than she is " , clearly her fans and supporters are not and that is scary .If it wasn't for the gross stupidity of their supporters the Republican party would be SOL , Palin the Moose hunter would be an unknown and Bush would never have been president . Truly these morons are more dangerous than Bin laden and "the terrorists" ... they've done more damage .
Her supporters don't care how smart she is -- that is the whole point. She represents the people who are afraid that other people are laughing at them.
that's basically it. it's really a sad state of affairs, but it's true and a very good strategy by the social engineers telling these palin followers that the people not like you don't like you. an essential element of conquer and divide dualism strategy.
Very good point. A lot like how racism was injected into populations that were not entirely racist to begin with.
In fact, at one point, colonial governors were worried that indentured servants were going to join forces with black slaves to start successful rebellions. Telling the servants they'd be freed in seven years wasn't all that exciting, since a lot of them were being worked so hard they'd never survive seven years. The solution? A lot of propaganda telling them that they were actually part of the rich crowd anyway . . . because they were white! And soon, they'd be slave masters instead of servants! As long as they waited their seven years, just think of the power they could gain over those dirty black slaves!
Sadly, it worked. Queen Sara's audience would easily fall for such pathetic and disgusting tactics.
I'm not sure how Palin fits into all of this but it does seem she may be a cheerleader to maintain the extreme right in the extreme......if you will. Personally, I'm bored of her nonsense and her underlining hate rhetoric. It seems directed at not allowing average republicans to slip in the "moderate" spectrum. I really feel it's their way of denying the
Bush legacy and putting the blame on Obama. In the end I really don't believe she will run for office again. She may be appointed to a position. I think she'll do a set-up to get Romney elected. Anyways the hate/negative framing by Palin brings joy to certain demographics which is sick.(love to be hated weird).Test score 28 no i don't have any law books ron.lol
Hey, the dog ate my homework and I still passed.
You betcha.
II had something come up and I wasn't able to go over the homework. I got a 23 and it said I still passed.
One of the most common right-wing memes used by opponents of health care reform is that progressive solutions to America’s health care problems place “Washington bureaucrats firmly between you and your doctor.” Again and again, conservatives have deployed this meme to demagogue the health care debate.
However, the reality is there already is someone standing between you and your doctor: health insurance companies. Single mother Ellen Hayden knows this from experience. After losing her mother at the age of 7 from breast cancer, Hayden has done everything she can to get regular mammograms. Following an abnormal mammogram, her doctor recommended that she have an MRI. After the scan, her insurer, Blue Cross Blue Shield, refused to pay for the procedure and is also refusing to pay for a follow-up second MRI her doctor has suggested.
Ned Helms, a former health insurance industry executive who now works at the University of New Hampshire, told Sea Coast Online that this is Hayden’s case is an example of “insurance people” getting between patients and their doctors:
“It’s understandable that this is an emotional issue because most patients believe that ‘nothing is going to stand between me and what I want to get done,’” said Ned Helms, a former health insurance industry executive and director of the N.H. Institute of Health Policy and Practice at the University of New Hampshire.
http://thinkprogress.org/2009/11/23/insurance...
...about that video? I don't imagine there was much of a b-roll. I'm sure they left about another 3-4 hours of perfectly viable severe learning disorders on the cutting room floor...
Wrong button! This was meant to be far above, but alas...
the boing boing article
http://www.boingboing.net/2009/11/23/understa...
the book link (free read)
http://home.cc.umanitoba.ca/~altemey/
Heh, here's a quiz question for the hell of it:
Which rights listed in the Bill of Rights are the states free to ignore?
Whichever ones they want, damn it, as long as they have enough guns? (Canadian here.)
Nope. There are several rights listed in the Bill of Rights that have been deemed "incorporated" onto the states via the Fourteenth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution. But there are several that have not (yet). Even U.S. citizens tend to think the states are not allowed to violate any of the Bill of Rights. (It's the Bill of Rights, isn't it?) They're usually shocked to find out it's not true under current Court doctrine.
It's always been a matter of controversy here in your neighbor to the south as to how much of the Constitution directly limited the state governments in their own sovereignty, and how much only constrained the federal government.
The 2nd(but hopefully will be), 3rd(hasn't been tested yet, and I don't expect it to be)the grand jury part of the 5th and the 7th.
the insanity of the right over the procedural vote this past saturday
the wingnut sheeple are so stupid that they really believed a health care reform package had been passed
it was great listening to el druggo and the rest trying to explain to their listeners that only a vote to continue debate had been passed
this after a week of telling them that they had to call their senators to kill the vote
and all palinbots are idiots and need to be sent to the nearest fema camp for immediate euthenasia
Chris Matthews has never been better!
That'll all change tomorrow. He'll go back to his right wing talking points schtick
since he's never been that good
:)
but chrissie was just taking a timeout from Obama bashing.
News Corp. Weighs an Exclusive Alliance With Bing
By TIM ARANGO and ASHLEE VANCE
A deal to block Google searches from News Corporation content would erect uncustomary barriers and could scramble the landscape of the Web.
On Nov. 24, 1963, Jack Ruby shot and mortally wounded Lee Harvey Oswald, the accused assassin of President Kennedy
I put this on the earlier carlson's thread about palin being smarter than Al Gore
She's not even smarter than Igor
Palin ... Smarter Than Al Gore
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0_1F0_20mE&fe...
(or even: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HXCzyMPU_x0)
But the thread looks deader than palin's career.
And let's not forget that when the Constitution was ratified it brought freedom to every single American," Mortensen said.
Do you think he really believes this? I guess he is to young to remember slavery. Sometimes I am just at a loss as what to do with theses people.
Several years ago after bush/chenny managed to get themselves appointed as leaders of an ever increasingly insane republican bizzaro world, I purchased a box of copies of the constitution.
I have been giving them away since. They didn't cost much I think they were around a dollar each.
I really like to give them to the religious republicans. I usually tell them that they should read it and live by it. That it will do them more good then trying to follow the bible.
republicanism/conservatism is a mental illness that is killing America!
I don't believe you mistook an Onion article to be an actual interview.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mKKKgua7wQk
Clearly, Palin isn't the problem; it's the fact that we allow cretins like these to roam freely in our midst.
I had to keep reminding myself that it was an Onion article. The trope of "The US Constitution is the most important Christian document since the Bible" is disturbingly common here in the Southeast. I've had to explain the "One Nation Under God" line to co-workers and even family, and how it's a tribute to the hatefulness of a man now considered to be borderline schizophrenic. Rarely have I been so disturbed by an Onion article.
And when sarah falls expect to hear:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gb4eZ7Z5yk8
Some people were saying if this thing worked. It might create a black hole. And we'd get swallowed up in it.
Well, it didn't happen.
There's still hope for that to yet occur...
I always loved the theory that the Universe started with a Big Bang:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-vkd8ly0g0
I'll take this one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CST7XOxw4Dk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mKKKgua7wQk&fe...
When pigs fly!
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/11/23/paul...
Next time put it on a ham string!
have no answers so they scratch the surface with what's obvious, then exaggerate the plan 9 from outter space. F"""*ck 'em, they don't belong in a free, progressive nation living off other's sweat.
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