South Carolina Nixes Christianist License Plates....
By bluegal Friday Dec 12, 2008 2:00pm...and the angels rejoice.
Speaking as a former resident of Alabama who has not one but three religious bumper stickers on her minivan (Constitutional guarantee of free speech), I'm actually surprised a district judge protected South Carolina taxpayers from paying for a religious license plate (Constitutional separation of Church and State).
From our friends at Americans United for the Separation of Church and State, who filed the lawsuit, natch:
A federal judge today ruled that the state of South Carolina may not issue a special “Christian” license plate featuring a cross, a stained-glass window and the words “I Believe.”
“The ‘I Believe’ license plate is a clear example of government favoritism toward one religion,” said the Rev. Barry W. Lynn, executive director of Americans United. “The court drove home an important point: South Carolina officials have no business meddling in religious matters.”U.S. District Judge Cameron McGowan Currie today issued a preliminary injunction forbidding the state to issue or manufacture the plates. She also ordered the state to inform people who requested the plates that they will not be available and to remove information about the plates from the state Web site.
Read more... [image from AU's website]
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But what if you believe in atheism?
I'd enjoy a Darwin-style fish motif license plate.
Not a religious issue whatsoever with that!
I gotta bumpersticker like this cap:
http://www.cafepress.com/subgen.33985900
I remember the story about the priest and the wetsuit and the "Battery Operated Boyfriend". Is that what the hat refers to? :)
I think the BOB refers to J.R. "Bob" Dobbs, of the Church of the Subgenius. Note the fashionable pipe in the fish's mouth.
then you should get atheist license plates (if, and only if, all other religions get their own license plates).
atheism is not a religion or a religious position.
You can also not "believe" in atheism...
In any case, separation of church and state bitches. State issues license plates, ergo nothing religious can be stamped on them. Period. End of discussion...
At this point I am starting to develop the theory that many parts of the south and the Midwest are so "devout" because life must be so f*cking boring over there, that they need something to prevent them from blowing their brains up.
and lived in North Carolina during most of the 1990s...neither is boring. Beyond that, as an atheist I agree with your sentiments. Of course no religious symbols should be on license plates, duh! I would like to see the uproar if a Muslim or Jewish group tried to do this - imagine the push back from "The Believers."
and as a Christian I agree with both you and Tyler. State issues the plates - nothing religious, period. My very first thought was what if a Muslim group wanted plates? I imagine the request for that wouldn't even reach the ears of anyone in a position to make a decision. It would simply be ignored until they got a lawyer, then the extreme right would scream their heads off.
Total separation of church and state. No exceptions.
Don't know how boring the Midwest or the South are, but apparently Heaven was so f*ucking boring before it got cable that a whole bunch of angels emmigrated and "evolved" into Satan and demons.
so that may be the reason.
Have you ever been to Utah??? ;-)
I thought the Mormons go to another planet or galaxy where they remain married to their spouse and have intergalactic children?
... according to SouthPark, they are right and they go to heaven.
Of course in SP, God is a Buddhist... :-)
Alas, I must concede that the whole concept of intergalactic supergodness of the Mormons was pretty far out as far as bullshit religion goes. I sort of respect really wacky religions, I mean... if you are going to make shit up, at least go big.
Actually it was a planet named Kolob.
It puts a singular materialism into theism.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?
And yet so eloquent.
Lets just settle for "President".
Request a plate that says "I Don't Believe"
"I want to believe"
They have Sunni and Shia ones in Iraq. They're a big help.
The Shia ones say "Faith in Allah"
and the Sunni ones say "Stay back 100 feet"
I have a great idea! Make a holder for the license plate. It can have about a 1 to 1 1/2 inch border and you can print almost anything at all on this, maybe we can call it a license plate holder?, and that way anyone who wants their license plate to send a message the "license plate holder" can send that message! You could sell them almost anywere and they can say almost anything!!!
That sounds great!
I have been toying with this other idea. What about having stickers, that can be placed on the bumper of your car, and you can say whatever you want in them? I am thinking a catchy name for this gizmo... "bumpersticker" sounds cool...
What do you think?
how do you say it, 'bumperstickers', yeah, those'll never catch on...
See those magnet thingies that you can place on your fridge?
What if, and follow me on this, what if we make the same but for cars? Maybe in the shape of a ribbon or something. The body of a car is made of metal, so maybe... that may work.
What do you think?
I prefer bumperlickers.
Oklahoma has a license plate that says "Choose Life" with a smiling, happy boy and girl face on it. I don't like them. What's my option--"Choose Death"?
But now that the Okla. legislature has a Repblican majority, I expect more pro-Christian-religion stuff. In fact, I hear that the first bill up for the new session is a so-called "nondiscrimination against religion"-type thing. U know what that means--pushing Christianity. The Sally Kerns will eat it up with a spoon.
i am going to demand that license plate!
They have those here in Florida as well. I want one that says choose abortion with a little boy and girl happily eating a bloody fetus.
Do you think the theocrats in these states would accept a Jewish license plate?
to bring in the rapture, they have been quite in love with them.
Now, if you want to see these states blowing a fuse... print muslim or Darwin-based license plates. LOL.
LOL! Ah, thats the stuff.
Atheism is a religion in the same way that 'bald' is a hairstyle.
Plus, believing the Darwinian scientific theory to be accurate does not necessarily dictate atheism (though it should force biblical literalists to reinterpret some of their ideas).
For a state to issue a pro-evolution license plate would be no different than the state to issue a pro-gravity or pro-germ-theory plate. I never hear anyone equating a belief in the evidence supporting germ theory as a religious standpoint, even though it contradicts a millennium of religious beliefs from various cultures.
edit: stupid thing didn't put my comment where it belongs, as a reply to an earlier comment calling atheism a religion.
... just like theism, requires faith. You can no more use science to prove the nonexistence of God than you can to prove the existence of God. Therefore, absent any scientific proof, the atheist has to rely on faith in the non-existence of God. Having no faith at all, makes you an agnostic.
Atheism is more accurately described as partiicular type of "faith" or "belief" than a "religion". However, the more atheists band together to support each others' belief and the more organized the groups become, the closer to a religion.
You're right of course that accepting evolution does not mandate atheism, or any other type of religious belief....
...take a look at Russell's tea pot. Just because there is no scientific evidence to prove the tea pot does NOT exist, for me to say it doesn't is not really a testament of my faith, but an assumption drawn from a total lack of evidence.
I'm sure that you don't believe in fairies or gnomes. Yet, you wouldn't call yourself an a-fairy-ist or a-gnome-ist. You don't present evidence that either doesn't exist. You have the same amount of faith that fairies are not real as most atheists have that 'god' (in the sky-hook sense) is not real.
Faith IS "an assumption drawn from a total lack of evidence". There is as much evidence OF God as there is AGAINST God. Drawing any rational conclusion other than "there is no evidence, so no conclusion can be drawn" requires faith.
FYI, I have exactly the same amount of faith in God as I do in fairies and gnomes - none.
It's also defined as the belief in the trustworthiness of an idea; but formal usage is "usually reserved for concepts of religion," and that is the exact method that the commenter was attempting to use it in – a religious sense.
You're right. There is as much evidence OF God as there is AGAINST God: zero. And when there is absolutely no evidence that something exists, it doesn't take a BIBLICAL amount of faith to assume it doesn't.
There is no evidence that beyond the edges of the universe, there exists a small village of squids which feed on dark matter. Drawing any rational conclusion other than "there is no evidence, so no conclusion can be drawn" requires faith. But it doesn't require anywhere near the quantity and quality of faith required to believe that a 2,000 year old space zombie is going to save you from an eternity in a fiery hell. Right?
You seem to take your religion too seriously.
I'm plenty calm. I happen to like debating this exact topic: faith and atheism.
So, care to refute my point, or shall I take that comment as a concession?
Can I get popcorn and coke?
I like the way you think.I will on occassion scan through the Atheist/Theist sites,and always seem to run up against the same intractable mind sets from both sides of the issue.Speaking for myself,while not subscribing to any oraganized religion,I prefer to keep an open mind.I find the Atheist stance(as an artist coping with matters "spiritual")too materialistic,yet find org.religion too "naive" for lack of a better word.My point is,I find it equally concievable that the "spirit" begot the "material" as the other way around.
Atheist,materialistic? sure we are. We have million dollar churches, million dollar TV showes( that all they do is beg for more money) Tax free income to buy what wver they want. to pour money( that they is got god) into what ever they want. More shit is started because of reglion than ATHEIST.
http://www.terrywetherholt.com/images/gay_par...
From around the mid 19th century ntil the 1930's scientists would say that they've disproven God, but since then, they would either say there's no Scientific Question, as you pointed out, or they'll say they have no proof, the implication being that something at this point in time could exist, but no proof can be provided yet.
It wasn't like the sub-microscopic world simply didn't exist until they had the tools to prove it.
That leaves the question open to belief, where it should remain.
Exactly.
The idea of god should remain open to belief, just as the idea of the belief in fairies and gnomes, incubi and succubi.
Like Nancy Photenhauer!
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We may well be our own creators.
Quantum Physics talks about how thing don't really "exist" until we observe them.Existence is a 50/50 proposition.
The Bible states that true believers can drink poison and will not die. I'm not quite sure why there are so many poison-avoiding Christians on the planet who are afraid to really test the validity of the Holy Scriptures...maybe Rick Warren or Sean Hannity or Mitt Romney should do their faith a favor and prove the truth of the Bible on the O'Reilly Factor some time soon.
Can you cite the book and verse for that?? I have some relatives I'd like to introduce to that concept!!
Mark 16:17-18
17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
My doctor has a Bible verse a day on his desk and other such things in his office. I find it rather amusing that there is any such thing as a Christian physician. Every Christian who goes to a doctor instead of their minister, priest or fellow believer for treatment is really an utter failure to their faith. Makes me wonder why any Christian has need of any medical health care services and how much better the country would be if they were able to donate their plans to the secular poor and middle class.
Everybody is an atheist, but only the true atheist takes it one step further. :-P
----------------------------------------------------------
a·the·ist n. 1. One that disbelieves or denies the existence of God or gods.
Now if only we can agree who or what god is, we can begin a fair discussion.
Can one prove atheism
Or wouldn't that be proving a negative?
Russell's teapot.
Must one defend one's position as an a-tea-pot-ist?
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That Christians are trying so hard to attach religious symbols to the placard that holds the number that revelations warned them about? I don't know, didn't the bible warn us about having a number attached to us one day?
You're referring to the Great Beast 666. Some fundie groups were having conniptions over the bar code that are scanned in stores check out lines for that reason. I'm surprised they haven't started about the implantable RFID chip. The last one has got me a little worried.
S Carolina should issue licence plates reading HAIL SATAN.
Or maybe WE ALL SPRING FROM PRIMORDIAL MUCK.Catchy eh?
I think you're all missing the point. If you didn't have these license plates how would you know that the b@stard who just cut you off or stole your parking place has the Holy Love of Jesus(tm) filling their hearts? Whaddaya want, actual love thy neighbor type behavior?
Heathens...
Do any states still make jail prisoners press license plates?
In conservative states they still break rocks.
I like getting my rocks off.
Yeah, in New Hampshire. You know, the state slogan there is "Live Free or Die"
North Carolina is progressive when compared to South Carolina. South Carolina is the asshole of the nation.
"South Carolina Asshole of the Nation"
Based on what experience?
Well, for 1, 2 and 3: NC went for Obama, elected a Democratic governor and ousted Elizabeth Dole.
SC went for McCain.
What other "experience" do you need?
That's why a Darwin license plate is fine. :)
...as long as I can have my Flying Spaghetti Monster license plate.
Get Rid of Indiana's plate next. They try to shove that fucker down your throat at the license bureau. Looks like a Fox News back drop with "IN GOD WE TRUST" on the side of it.
As long as I can have my dyslexism license plate.
PRAISE DOG
I like that. at least I can see DOG.
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The interesting thing is a lot of churches might object to stain glass windows, too Papist.
And the cross without the corpse is more of a Protestant thang.
So it's not even inclusive of all Xians.
..religious pendants would look much different. I'd prefer to wear an upside down one, in that case.
Your describing something like the crux inversus or the pentamorph.
Funny thing though, if you wear a talisman right side up for observers, looking down yourself it's reversed.
So, does that mean that wearing a cross or crucifix is really just a way of showing off for others?
Yep, it's another form of praying on the street corner
Or using it as a magical talisman or amulet.
Early Christians would argue hotly against Pagan intellectuals that they did NOT worship the cross, and poiinted to the Roman Standard that they carried in formation as evidence that the legions did.
Hmmm...come to think of it religious license plates might qualify as praying on street corners so that you might be seen. So it's not only a violation of the Seperation of Church and State, but also a violation of Both Church and State.
Stained glass windows are meaningless and my church will not display a cross, nor will any of my brothers or sisters there wear one or have that image in their homes. The cross was an instrument of torture used by the Romans to put the people under their rule in a state of fear. We do NOT see it as the image of salvation as most of mainstream Christianity does.
When I see someone wearing a cross I see it as the equivalent of them wearing a charm in the form of a gun. Or a guillotine, for that matter. I can't believe that anyone would want that on their license plate.
that if Jesus came back today Christians would have little electric chair necklaces.
That was in Lenny's standup days, maybe today we'd have a injection needle at the front of the church? And wasn't that a scene in the rock opera "Tommy"?
We still have taxpayer subsidized "In God We Trust" here in Indiana. Any chance of sending that judge up here to straighten things out?
Can't believe it. We're even more backwards than South Carlina. Jeez.
We too have in S.C. an "In God We Trust" license plate. I wish Cam Currie had gone after that one as well. I never had to turn one down, I would have with a vengeance.
Now our new 'normal' plates are just fuck ugly, with a website listed. It can get embarrassing down here sometimes...well, lots of times, actually.
Evolution is just a theory...Kind of like gravity
..I gave to my nephew, who is a Navy helicopter pilot:
"Gravity: Not Just A Good Idea....It's The Law!"
I'll have another dram of the Aberlour.
Slainthe'
69!
I live in Virginia, and DMV rejected my request for 'Idaho'.
NT
In Nevada, do working girls have license plates reading Imaho?
.
I'd compromise with an X against a black background and "It's out there."
Pretty much the same thing, no?
Not quite. X is the the Greek letter for Chi
But it's why people abbreviate things like Xians and Xmas.
It's also the cross of St Andrew as found on the flag of Scotland.
I think to sum up my thoughts Reason states that Reason is based on all available evidence, but acknowledges that not all evidence may be available.
But to get back to the license plates, if they were like vanity plates that one can purchase and NONE of the costs for the religious sentiment is paid by others who disagree with the statement, then it would be acceptable, unless one can come along and claim that their religious/philosophical stance was denied a plate.
Couple years ago I saw a website that was advertising to Xtians across the country to move to South Carolina, when enough of the like minded folks arrived then the first Christian State could be declared, secede and work to incorporate more states into the next incarnation of the coming Christian Nation. Seems they are serious about this with the tag design. But I haven't been able to find that site again.
Simply put, there is NO way for the state to issue a religious license tag without using taxpayer money.
It's not just the cost of the materials of the tag itself. They have to pay the people who actually make the tags - even if the tags are prison manufactured, the prisoners are paid a salary (pennies, but still). Even if the prisoners were not paid a pittance, taxpayers pay for their bread and board. The state has to pay the folks at the DMV who handle the application and issue the tag. And they have to pay the people who maintain the database and the information all year long.
Hmm, maybe that idea's OK after all. You can have a religious tag - the cost will be approximately $10,000 per year.
Guess I haven't looked for it lately.
http://christianexodus.org/
these people in South Carolina will go to hell, I know somewhere in the bible it says, if you don't have a Christian License plate on your car, you will go to hell. Oh my, what is a good christian to do.
As a non-Fundie-wacko resident of the Palmetto State, I was exceedingly pleased that this inane project got derailed. We have enough PR issues without this latest potential black eye. Watch... some douche bag politician (like the Lt. Governor) is going to make a grandstanding public fight out of this, and make us look like a bunch of Regent University grads.
Oh well... the coast is nice, and we have some great state parks...
Did you mean to say inane or insane? Inane usually denotes uninspired or boring, or even stupid.
Oh well, they can all pack up and move to Alaska and join the AIP.
The constitution does not seem to rule out the license plate idea. Perhaps the first Amendment needs to be repealed and replaced with specific all encompassing language regarding the separation of church and state.
Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
The free exercise of religion might include a religious bumpersticker, that's only the result of a transaction between seller and buyer, without the state involved like with license plates.
I can personally say I am totally shocked this was shot down. I am from SC, I do not admit that proudly. Clemson, SC. actually. There is a church on almost every corner of those small towns. You know the ones where REAL AMERICANS live.. My entire family still lives there and never lived anywhere else. Except for me. Now I'm proud to call West Hollywood, CA my home..
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